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Operations menu Select a letter from this list, or X to exit: flfff Date: Thursday, October 24, 1991 9:14am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Jesse Msg#: 94038 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: BBS Tax (5 replies) ------------------------------------------------------------------- BBS SERVICES FIGHT NEW YORK STATE "DOWNLOAD" TAX 09/09/91 ALBANY, NEW YORK, U.S.A., 1991 AUG 09 (NB) -- New York State Bulletin Board System Operators (sysops) have banded together to attempt to roll back legislation that imposes a requirement on sysops to collect New York State Sales Tax on software downloaded by bbs. The legislation, enacted as part of the New York state budget agreement (Senate bill #6079, Assembly #8491), went into effect on September 1st and, according to the understanding of an organization of New York sysops (NYBBS), requires sysops to remit to New York State sales tax on any software downloaded. It is the understanding of this group that the tax requirement includes not only commercial software but also "shareware" and public domain software (in the case of public domain software, the sysop is required to estimate the "value" of the software and then remit applicable tax). The tax remission requirement is said by NYBBS to be in effect for the sysop whether or not the downloader ever pays for the software. Tony Mack, a sysop in the Albany area, told Newsbytes that 31 sysops met on Saturday, September 7th with legislatures attempting to reach agreement on modifications. Mack said that the legislators, Assemblyman Paul Tonko (D - 105th Dist) and James Tedisco (R - 107th), told the group that they believed that exemptions could be made for BBSs that did not accept donations of "upload/download ratios" or membership requirements. Mack said that the compromise was unacceptable and pointed to the fact that many BBS accept donations simply to pay for Usenet charges and equipment upgrades. Jack Brooks, sysop of New York City's Dorsai Embassy, agreed with Mack, telling Newsbytes "Dorsai charges users of our Usenet interface $25 a year. This charge is an attempt to offset our monthly payments for the Usenet feed and, quite frankly, it doesn't cover it so we still have to make it up from our own pockets. This law is absurd and must be repealed. Brooks said that Dorsai has issued a public statement on the issue and is asking its users to bring appropriate political action to repeal the regulation. The statement says, in part, "It is the policy of The Dorsai Diplomatic Mission to oppose any and all legislation that would diminish and hamper the goals, continued operation and successes of the telecommunications community at large. Such an act is New York State Senate Bill #6078 and Assembly Bill #8491 sections 154, 155, 156, and 157 These statues would destroy the free exchange of information, ideas and public domain The BBS of the New York Amateur Computer Club (NYACC) also responded to the regulation with a message from sysop Hank Kee, saying, in part, "This is an ill advised law that muzzles the free flow of electronic information. This bill needs to be repealed. If not, I will forced to inhibit all file transfer activity on this BBS." NYACC distributes, through its BBS, the PC Blue Library, a multi-hundred volume library of MS-DOS public domain and shareware software. Mike Godwin, in-house counsel of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, told Newsbytes that Kee's notification that file transfer activities may be terminated is an example of the effect that the tax requirement will have. Godwin said "I think that this kind of ill-conceived law is very likely to impose a chilling effect on the exercise of the rights of BBS users to communicate and share free software." Godwin continued "It's as if you had to charge a sales tax whenever a neighbor brings a cup of sugar to someone's door. We this law and its interpretation reconsider this action." Officials at GEnie and CompuServe were unavailable for comment on how the legislation might impact their services within New York State. CONFUSION REIGNS ON NY STATE "DOWNLOAD" TAX 09/12/91 NEW YORK, NEW YORK, U.S.A., 1991 SEPT 12 (NB) -- On the day that the New York State was to begun to enforce a tax law supposedly requiring sysops to remit taxes on the downloading of software from computer bulletin board systems, strong doubt arose that the law was ever intended to have that result and will ever be so interpreted by the NYS Dept. of Tax and Finance. communications, reported that he had contacted Paul Rickard, director of the NYS Department of Tax and Finance, and received assurances that there was no intent to require that true hobby boards (those which do not claim tax deductions due to BBS operation) remit sales tax on software downloads. The tax change, according to Rose's understanding from Rickard, was actually aimed at plugging a loophole surrounding those products built around previously existing software. Rose also pointed out that BBSs have been subject to sales taxes as information services for years, under Section 1105(c)(1) of NYS's tax law although most, if not all, did not actually pay the tax. Rose suggested that BBS operators attempt to have the law changed to provide them with the same exemption that newspapers and periodicals enjoy. Meanwhile, other interested parties have told Newsbytes that they have called underlings in the Dept. of Tax and Finance and received conflicting information. Members of the Albany, NY BBS group, NYBBS, that originally took notice of this legislation and on CompuServe, have reported meetings with officials in which they were told that their understanding of the BBS liability was correct and would be enforced. Emmanuel Goldstein, editor and publisher of 2600: The Hacker Quarterly, in his weekly New York City radio show. "Off The Hook", exhorted listeners to contact their state legislators and make their feeling known about such a tax. Goldstein later told Newsbytes that, while he hoped that Rose's understanding was correct, "We won't really know until we have a complete copy of the bill available for all and a public statement from the head of the tax bureau specifying the interpretation on which the authority will proceed." Appearing on Goldstein's show, Charles Rawls and Jack Brooks, sysops of New York City's "Dorsai Diplomatic Mission" said that, in the event of a worst case interpretation, that they would continue their operation as is and hope to be a test case. Rawls further said that any BBS which felt that it should suspend its downloading operation was welcome to transfer its libraries to Dorsai who would serve the BBS' users until such time as the BBS was Dave Burstein and Hank Kee, hosts of WBAI's "The Computer Show" also reported receiving conflicting information and suggested that concerned parties contact their state representatives and request information while informing the representative of their opposition to any form of BBS interference. Kee, sysop of the New York Amateur Computer Club (NYACC)'s BBS, said that under the definition that he had received of an exempt "hobby BBS", NYACC was exempt from any requirements in this matter and, after posting a message identifying it as a completely not-for-profit system, would continue normal operation. Both radio shows received numerous calls concerning this issue with some callers expressing conspirational theories with such persons or groups as New York Telephone Company, commercial systems such as CompuServe and GEnie, anti-BBS government groups and New York Governor Mario Cuomo emerging as the villain behind a crackdown on BBSs. end of the article NOTE THE LAST LINE OF THIS IN WHICH CUOMO IS THE DRIVING FORCE BEHIND THIS MADNESS !!!!!!!!!!!! Date: Friday, October 25, 1991 7:14pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Walts Msg#: 94736 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Taxes.txt File: TAXES.TXT (Fw by Sysop) Ok, I hope the following ASCII/Text file info clarifies the questions of BBS taxes... Date: Tuesday, December 24, 1991 7:36pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Lythande Msg#: 122647 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Have yourself a merry little...... File: 122647.ATT (5 replies) Just for your reading enjoyment..... Date: Tuesday, April 14, 1992 12:27am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vibrantm Msg#: 177535 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Covering all the rest of the tel# bases . . (1 reply) ZDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD?ZDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD? 3 The White House 33 The Vatican 3 3 Bill Clinton 33 Pope John Paul II 3 3 (202)456-1414 33 (01396) 69 82 3 @DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDY@DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDY ZDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD?ZDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD? 3 The Kremlin 33 Buckingham Palace 3 3 Boris Yeltsin 33 Queen Elizibeth 3 3 (017) 095 201 11 33 (014471) 930 48 32 3 @DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDY@DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDY Date: Sunday, April 19, 1992 6:27am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Rpm Msg#: 185650 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: This section for PC users 180 days (Copy by Lythande, Reply to #21) (6 replies) Major VIRUS Alert - NOT !! Subject: M A J O R V I R U S A L E R T * George Bush Virus - Doesn't do anything, but you can't get rid of it until November * Ted Kennedy Virus - Crashes your computer but denies it ever happened * Anita Hill Virus - Lies dormant for 10 years * Warren Commission Virus - Won't allow you to open your files for 75 years * Jerry Brown Virus - Blanks your screen and begins flashing an 800 number * David Duke Virus - Makes your screen go completely white * Congress Virus - Overdraws your disk space * Paul Tsongas Virus - Pops up on Dec. 25 and says "I'm Not Santa Claus" * Pat Buchanan Virus - Shifts all output to the extreme right of the screen * Dan Quayle Virus - Forces your computer to play "PGA TOUR" from 10am to 4pm 6 days a week * Bill Clinton Virus - This virus mutates from region to region. We're not exactly sure what it does. * Richard Nixon Virus - aka the "Tricky Dick Virus" you can wipe it out, but it always makes a comeback. * H. Ross Perot Virus - same as the Jerry Brown virus, only nicer fonts are used, and it appears to have had a lot more money put into its development. Date: Sunday, May 17, 1992 7:04pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kali Msg#: 195791 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: newshit.txt File: NEWSHIT.TXT (1 reply) This is the most recent and updated version of the previously posted Shit List. The file is NEWSHIT.TXT... some of this material has previously appeared both in here and in /sikfux. All material was written by myself, Corrosion, DTI, and Ace... hope you8 dig it! Date: Tuesday, May 19, 1992 3:12am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vibrantm Msg#: 196435 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Flavours of Conservatism - Let Us Count the Ways (1 reply) King Melchior's Guide to the Right Wing 13 May 1992 from somewhere in Cyberspace MAINSTREAM CONSERVATIVES Motto: "Liberty cannot endure in an atmosphere of license, and virtue is not virtue unless it is freely chose." Fave Decade: 1940s (except for FDR) Turn-Ons: The Fourth Of July Turn-Offs: April 15th Fave Politican: Ronald Reagan Fave Author: William F. Buckley, Jr Periodical: National Review Musical Group: Chicago Symphony Their Drink: Scotch PALEOCONSERVATIVES Motto: "Moderation in the pursuit of freedom is no virtue and extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice." Favorite Decade: None, except for 4 months in 1964 Turn-Ons: John Wayne movies Turn-Offs: Alan Alda movies Fave Politician: Pat Buchanan Periodical: Human Events Music: Frank Sinatra Their Drink: Bourbon NEOCONSERVATIVES Motto: "The expected value for any measured effect of a social program is zero." Fave Decade: 1960s (secretly) Turn-Ons: Footnotes Turn-Offs: Paleoconservatives Fave Politician: Daniel P. Moynihan Music: Bob Dylan Drink: Vodka and Perrier MODERATE REPUBLICANS Motto: "Same here, but less." Fave Decade: 1950s Turn-Ons: Moderate Democrats Turn-Offs: More conservative Republicans Politican: Dwight Eisenhower Author: William Safire Periodical: Reader's Digest Music: Kingston Trio Drink: Martini COUNTRY CLUB REPUBLICANS Motto: "Plastics" Favorite Decade: 1940s Turn-Ons: Golf pants Turn-Offs: Capital gains taxes Politican: George Herbert Walker Bush Periodical: Town & Country Music: Glenn Miller Drink: White wine Guide To The Right Wing OBJECTIVISTS Motto: "Rational egotism." Fave Decade: Prehistory Turn-Ons: Ayn Rand's Playboy interview Turn-Offs: God Fave Politician: None. Hate all equally. Fave Author: Ayn Rand Periodical: Anything that mentions Ayn Rand. Music: Wagner Drink: Whiskey with a schnapps chaser. RELIGIOUS RIGHT Motto: "Thou shalt have no other God before me." Favorite Decade: Before the Fall Turn-Ons: Bible Camp Turn-Offs: Secular humanism Fave Politican: Pat Robertson Favorite Author: Matthew or John (tie) Periodical: 700 Club transcripts Music: Petra Drink: Lemonade Guide To The Right Wing REPUBLICAN PARTY REPTILES Motto: "Gentlemen, start your engines." Decade: 1980s Turn-Ons: Fast cars and airstrikes Turn-Offs: Catalytic converters and the UN Politician: None, but we'll take Jack Kemp Author: P.J.O'Rourke Periodical: Guns and Ammo Music: anything loud Drink: beer Date: Saturday, May 30, 1992 2:01am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kali Msg#: 201172 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Politically correct speech.... (5 replies) This is a very cute set of politically correct terms for words commonly used to describe other people.... enjoy! OLD: POLITICALLY CORRECT: old chronologically gifted crippled differently-abled dead metabolically challenged (formerly Necro-American) ugly cosmetically oppressed. puny differently vertical bald follicle-impaired asinine special fat person of mass female person of gender male vaginally challenged grouchy other-mooded tedious attentionally disabling lost positionally challenged unreal metaphysically problematic slouch motivationally impaired evil ethically alternative stupid differently clued I figured we needed a bit of levity.... Date: Tuesday, June 16, 1992 10:32am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vibrantm Msg#: 206470 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Cow Tipping (7 replies) The following wit was floating around cyberspace recently; I make no claim of authorship. ____________________________________________________________________ ILLUMINATI UNIVERSITY PRESENTS: BASIC POLITICAL SCIENCE FEUDALISM You have two cows. Your lord takes some of the milk. PURE SOCIALISM You have two cows. The government takes them and puts them in a barn with everybody else's cows. You have to take care of all the cows. The government gives you as much milk as you need. BUREAUCRATIC SOCIALISM You have two cows. The government takes them puts them in a barn with everybody else's cows. They are cared for by ex-chicken farmers. You have to take care of the chickens the government took from the chicken farmers. The government gives you as much milk as the regulations say you should need. FASCISM You have two cows. The government takes both, hires you to care for them, and sells you the milk. PURE COMMUNISM You have two cows. Your neighbors help take care of them, and you all share the milk. RUSSIAN COMMUNISM You have two cows. You have to take care of them, but the government takes all the milk. CAMBODIAN COMMUNISM You have two cows. The government takes both and shoots you. DICTATORSHIP You have two cows. The government takes both and drafts you. PURE DEMOCRACY You have two cows. Your neighbors decide who gets the milk. REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY You have two cows. Your neighbors pick someone to tell you who gets your milk. BUREAUCRACY You have two cows. At first the government regulates what you can feed them and when you can milk them. Then it pays you not to milk them. Then it takes both, shoots one, milks the other and pours the milk down the drain. Then it requires you to fill out forms accounting for the missing cows. PURE ANARCHY You have two cows. Either you sell the milk at a fair price, or your neighbors try to take the cows and kill you. ANARCHO-CAPITALISM You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull. SURREALISM You have two giraffes. The government requires you to take harmonica lessons. Date: Tuesday, July 7, 1992 9:04pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Ace Msg#: 213994 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: DQUAYLE.TXT File: DQUAYLE.TXT (2 replies) Here's a txt file I found; a compilation of Dan Quayle quotes... have fun... >;) Date: Saturday, July 11, 1992 10:24am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kali Msg#: 215437 To: Lastjudge *EXEMPT* Re: Evil Censorship (Reply to #215041, Reply to #214802,*) (3 replies) As the Sigop, I am about to point some rather vicious truth in your direction. I DO NOT CENSOR MESSAGES. EVER. I may respond to them in a rather heated manner, but never, NEVER, will you see me censor them. As forcomparing Tarot to Jesse, that was me. Fine, if you think it was nasty, that's your prerogative. But do pay attention to the fact that I *can*, as well as many of the others can, have a calm and rational discussion with Jesse. Look at the Dinkins/Housing tax thread. I used to think Jesse was an asshole. Now, I realize he's ooutspoken, as I am, and *most* of us here are, and his opinions don't always agree wit6h mine. I have written things in anger that were out of line, so has he. So have most of us, by my estimation. That goes under the topic of... FREE SPEECH. We are *all* entitled to it here. If person X says something that person Y finds offensive, person Y is within his or her rights to object in *any way he/she pleases*. THAT is freedom of speech. I think Tarot is a Homophobe. I am entitkled to write that. FREEDOM OF SPEECH WORKS BOTH WAYS. He is, conversely, entitled to call me whatever he likes. In fact, he has more or less, by generalization, called me and my lifestyle devoid of morality. I have a right torespond to that inany way I see fit. By extension, So does anyone else in this sig. That may not be pretty, nice, or even polite, but it is real. Free speech is something I personally hold to be the singular most important thins Americans are granted as a basic right. Read the first amendment. Freedom of speech, worship, and assembly are covered by thatone rel.,atively short amendment. It has so much power. And, as long as I am sigop of /Curevent, *that* will be the one rule. Date: Saturday, July 25, 1992 5:44pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vibrantm Msg#: 220815 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Israeli Space Program (2 replies) TEL AVIV UNIVERSITY THE PRESS OFFICE PRESS RELEASE May 20,1992 U.S. Ambassador to Israel, William Harrop, yesterday (Wed.) criticized the veil of secrecy behind which Israel shrouds its space programs. Addressing Tel Aviv University's Board of Governors Harrop said that the U.S. and Israel must exchange information about their respective programs "in order to determine where there might be a good fit between U.S. and Israeli capabilities for future space activities. Israel needs to know as much about the U.S. space program as possible, and, conversely, the U.S. needs to know as much as possible about Israel's space program". Reading from a prepared text, Ambassador Harrop added that "only after there is a free flow of information back and forth can intelligent decisions be made. " I urge Israeli space officials and space scientists to increase the dialogue with their American counterparts. I have the impression that this exchange has been too much in one direction up to know," he stressed. Prof. Yaakov Yishai, of Tel Aviv University's Sackler School of Medicine, later illustrated a plan developed by the university and Israel Aircraft Industry to send hornets into space on board a NASA shuttle which will be launched in September. The hornets's life span is one month. By sending them into space the scientists hope to learn about biological changes in living organisms and deduce how human beings may be affected by very long journeys to other planets. A second project presented yesterday is the planned launching of an ultra-violet telescope. The program's coordinator, Dr. Noah Brosh, also of Tel Aviv University, said the telescope will be incorporated into a multi-national satellite launched from a Russian platform. It will help map other galaxies, stars and quasars. Quasars are celestial objects four to ten billion light years away. The telescope is being built by El-Op. The two programs will cost $10.5m. according to TAU Prof. Akiva Bar-Nun, head of the Israel Space Agency. Astronaut Prof. William Thornton, who took part in the debate said that small countries with limited budgets can also participate in space research. Sometimes they have an advantage because the instruments they devise are small and light. TAU's planned experiments exemplifies this, he added. -=} The Israeli Byte BBS {=- -=} (415) 550-1318 Date: Saturday, July 25, 1992 5:47pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vibrantm Msg#: 220816 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: RABIN.TXT File: RABIN.TXT (2 replies) This text file describes the policies of the new government in Israel and the dominant political party's platform. A few othe press releases accompany this file. Date: Monday, August 3, 1992 11:41am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Mindless Msg#: 224808 To: Jesse *EXEMPT* Re: Harmful Drugs (Reply to #224762, Reply to #223476,*) (5 replies) sounds reasonable... except for yr analogy betw. coke/heroin & advanced weaponry... here's some numbers for you to chew on... In 1990, according to the United States Surgeon General, alcohol killed over 28 times as many people - 130,000 - as did all illegal drugs *combined*. The only drug that's a bigger killer is tobacco, which killed 360,000. It's not surprising that they're trying to get you to look elsewhere. What is surprising is that they're pointing the finger at Marijuana, which is one of the *safest* drugs around. But if you ask them why they're opposed to a drug which has never killed *anyone*, a likely response might be: Why ask why? Drink Bud Dry Don't be fooled! Just say NO to the "War on Drugs". References: U.S. Surgeon General's Actuarial info, 1990 Tobacco . . . . . . . . . . . . 360,000 [legal] Alcohol . . . . . . . . . . . . 130,000 [legal] Prescribed drugs . . . . . . . 18,675 [legal] Caffeine . . . . . . . . . . . 5,800 [legal] Cocaine . . . . . . . . . . . . 2,390 [illegal] Heroin . . . . . . . . . . . . 2,147 [illegal] Aspirin . . . . . . . . . . . . 986 [legal] Marijuana . . . . . . . . . . . 0 [illegal] -- seems like the only substances that fit yr grenade analogy are alcohol & tobacco... both legal... hell, more people die from caffeine use than from heroin/cocaine combined... let's outlaw caffeine... it's obviously a dangerous stimulant... mindless. Date: Saturday, August 8, 1992 8:48am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Walts Msg#: 226718 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Libertarians (3 replies) For some further political discussions, I've UL'd a thread from CI$. If anyone wants the files mentioned at the end, let me know -- I'll DL from CI$ and UL them here -- REgards, WaltS #: 47869 S9/Mind To Mind [MENSA] 03-Aug-92 20:08:53 Sb: #Libertarian Principles Fm: Mike Steiner 70363,2220 To: All Libertarians have been accused of being anarchists, conservatives in disguise, and liberals in diguise. Following is from the platform of one of the two Libertarian candidates for Senator of California (BTW, this year, CA is electing two senators: a 2-year term and a 6-year term). "You who work and pay taxes are under a greater burder now than ever. Republican and Democratic taxation and borrowing are cancers eating away what's left of America's productive economy. Middle-class Americans must not be forced to support special interests, lazy chiselers, and corrupt officials who drain the public treasury dry." "The free market, which created America's vast economic wealth, is being choked to death by governmental regulation. Bureaucrats from numerous federal agencies harass businesses (especially small businesses) while allowing special interests like toxic waste dumpers to escape on 'technicalites.' The price we all pay fo this is a sever long-term economic delcine. We need to stop treating business people like criminals." "People who take the life, liberty, or property of someone else, or who threaten by force to do so are criminals. All criminals, be they S&L robber barons using political connections to rip-off the taxpayer, or street thugs victimizing the citizen should be punished severely." "The government education monopoly has failed. Our children are among the least well educated in the developed world. We must replace this huge government bureaucracy with parental choice and free-market competition." "Free people reject government control over our bodies, or sex lives, our reading material, our desired medical treatment, and all peaceful, voluntary activities between citizens, Each individual, not government, has the right to pursue happiness in his own way, provided he does not violate the rights of others." #: 48000 S9/Mind To Mind [MENSA] 04-Aug-92 08:23:32 Sb: #47869-#Libertarian Principles Fm: Robin Garr 76702,764 To: Mike Steiner 70363,2220 (X) Mike, that platform helps crystallize my original opinion about libertarianism, with a key variation that I hadn't quite seen before: Libertarians ARE conservatives ... until it comes to personal behavior. #: 48054 S9/Mind To Mind [MENSA] 04-Aug-92 11:53:26 Sb: #48000-#Libertarian Principles Fm: Mike Steiner 70363,2220 To: Robin Garr 76702,764 (X) Robin, how about "Libertarians are liberals...until it comes to fiscal matters"? I used to have a copy of "the world's shortest political quiz" that is published by a Libertarian. It consists of 20 Y/N/M questions that purport to categorize the respondent's political leanings into Liberal, Conservative, Authoritarian, and Libertarian. (I probably still have it somewhere around the apt., but I can't find it.) It's a bit dated because of the changes in world politics and some recent changes in the laws, but I found it to be quite accurate. BTW, since moving here, I've met two Libertarian candidates for office--one in the SF area, and one in Orange County. The one in OC (who is the one whose platform started this thread) was the campaign manager for the one in SF, who is a Mensan, BTW. Both of them are black, and the one in SF is a woman. #: 48079 S9/Mind To Mind [MENSA] 04-Aug-92 13:53:22 Sb: #48054-#Libertarian Principles Fm: Robin Garr 76702,764 To: Mike Steiner 70363,2220 (X) Mike, based *solely* on the manifesto you uploaded, I saw about a dozen conservative economic and social dicta, many of them hard- core, and one liberal personal-behavior item, the last. That hardly sounds like a careful balance between left and right to me. Now, the "platform" you showed us may not be truly representative of broad Libertarian philosophy, but as far as it went, it looked like the description of an extreme conservative who didn't want anyone to keep him from having a good time. :) #: 48150 S9/Mind To Mind [MENSA] 05-Aug-92 00:21:59 Sb: #48079-#Libertarian Principles Fm: Mike Steiner 70363,2220 To: Robin Garr 76702,764 (X) Mixed in those "conservative" dicta were some liberal dicta as well. 1. He railed against "special interests' (which include big business) and "corrupt officials" (which is something that liberals do routinely). 2. He railed against toxic waste dumpers (another favorite target of liberals and friend of conservates). He supported small businesspeople. I submit that conservatives care diddly squat for small business--come to think of it, so do liberals; I guess that makes it a squash. 3. He is against the "S&L robber barons" who use political connections (another favorite liberal target). #: 48226 S9/Mind To Mind [MENSA] 05-Aug-92 11:13:56 Sb: #48150-#Libertarian Principles Fm: Robin Garr 76702,764 To: Mike Steiner 70363,2220 (X) Points taken, Mike. There was still a sense of meanness about the list that left me feeling like I'd been mugged by a dittohead after I read it. #: 48259 S9/Mind To Mind [MENSA] 05-Aug-92 12:30:28 Sb: #48226-#Libertarian Principles Fm: Mike Steiner 70363,2220 To: Robin Garr 76702,764 (X) I didn't see any meanness in it at all. I don't agree with all of it--in particular, I believe that there is still a place for public education in this country. #: 48275 S9/Mind To Mind [MENSA] 05-Aug-92 14:14:32 Sb: #48259-Libertarian Principles Fm: Robin Garr 76702,764 To: Mike Steiner 70363,2220 (X) I thought it seemed mean, Mike. Maybe I'd better paddle upthread and look at it again. #: 48104 S9/Mind To Mind [MENSA] 04-Aug-92 18:34:07 Sb: #48054-#Libertarian Principles Fm: Bill Holt 70530,1223 To: Mike Steiner 70363,2220 (X) Mike, Is the libertarian manifesto Robin mentions in one of the libs.? If so, which and what the name please? B #: 48151 S9/Mind To Mind [MENSA] 05-Aug-92 00:22:01 Sb: #48104-Libertarian Principles Fm: Mike Steiner 70363,2220 To: Bill Holt 70530,1223 (X) Bill, it is not a Libertarian manifesto; it is the campaign platform of one Libertarian party candidate for Senator from California. It is the first message in this thread. #: 48155 S9/Mind To Mind [MENSA] 05-Aug-92 00:30:18 Sb: #48104-#Libertarian Principles Fm: Bill Horton (Sysop) 76711,335 To: Bill Holt 70530,1223 (X) It was in an earlier message, Bill. Though the Libertarians have a CIS account, maybe we could invite 'em over for a visit/debate. #: 48441 S9/Mind To Mind [MENSA] 06-Aug-92 07:59:29 Sb: #48155-Libertarian Principles Fm: Cindy Moog 71350,3044 To: Bill Horton (Sysop) 76711,335 Now *that* would be fun!! And I'll betcha it'd go on for hours. #: 48157 S9/Mind To Mind [MENSA] 05-Aug-92 01:41:30 Sb: #48054-#Libertarian Principles Fm: Phil Kamp 72557,3223 To: Mike Steiner 70363,2220 (X) Mike, I just uploaded 3 files to the MTM lib. that might help those here understand libertarianism better, it may take a day or two for the sysop to put it out for downloading Liberty.zip 65k Libertarian National Party platform Lpca.zip 19k LP of CA. platform (shorter version) Lpquiz.zip .9k World's Shortest Political Quiz BTW, the quiz has only 10 questions, and none appear that out of date. FWIW #: 48158 S9/Mind To Mind [MENSA] 05-Aug-92 02:45:15 Sb: #48157-Libertarian Principles Fm: Mike Steiner 70363,2220 To: Phil Kamp 72557,3223 (X) Thanks, Phil. I'll download the quiz; I think that I misremembered the number of questions in the quiz: I thought that each pa Date: Sunday, August 9, 1992 11:56pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Dti Msg#: 227790 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Another Plea From The Black Heart (Copy by Lythande) Listen: I know that a number of you, maybe twenty or even twenty five, saints in hell have actually chucked cash at this board to aid in the Lets Get More Lines cause. Don't go screaming at me just because I reappear suddenly and still find two palsied lines to this fine establishment. You gave, those who did. Christ with bleeding pancreas blesses thou throughout eternity. Only those who actually sent in the green. There are a number of others who have yet to help out. Theoretically there are like seventeen hundred people out there on the thin end of the Wire who see this post straight from the heart. If you are thin on cash then stay good and god be with you. However, if you just check in here time to time see what nasty thrills you can get for a dime, think of this like Channel Thirteen or the CABLE TELEVISION you PROBABLY have. Jam twenty or twenty five bucks to the adress you can obtian by simply hitting the keys "I" and "5" at the Main Menu. Make a couple more lines and no one will ever GIVE YOU A VASECTOMY WITH A RUSTY SKILSAW. Or a hysterectomy via CRUSH TRAUMA. Neither method implies anaesthesia, of course. Remember: If you have it, send some of it. If you have not, well, better times are coming as soon as my cat POGO becomes Prez. Until then, may the Siffed Heart of Clthulu be with you alla time waking or otherwise... Regards, Don T. Inferno Date: Saturday, August 15, 1992 12:40am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kali Msg#: 229820 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Petition.txt File: PETITION.TXT (1 reply) This file goes along with the previous one--it's a petition to send to congressmen, senators, etc., about this. ATTENTION ALL BBS USERS: There is pressure now on the Federal government to regulate the BBS community. This would mean that the private-enterprise nature of BBSs would be threatened. BBS systems would have to register with and be monitored by the Federal government, and the contents of the systems would be strictly controlled. We must prevent this from happening. Please make as many copies of this document as you need, and sign the area below. Send the form to your congressman, senator, or other government repersentative. Collect signatures from other concerned BBS users, and make yourselves heard. Your First Amendment rights are about to be infringed upon. Don't let the government take the words out of your mouth. Dear _____________________: I / we, the undersigned, do hereby protest all proposed regulation of electronic bulletin board systems, hereafter referred to as "BBSs". Such regulation would constitute a violation of my Constitutional right to free speech, freedom of thought, and freedom of expression, especially amongst those who tend to exercise such rights so fervently. Please do not allow the passage of such legislation, and oppose its existence or proposal wherever you can. I / we, the undersigned, is / are an enthusiastic BBS user and I / we do not wish to have a very potent and democratic form of speech to be curtailed. I / we will continue to oppose all governmental action that threatens the First Amendment in any of its myriad forms, of which the BBS community is a lively and potent one. Thank you. It's also attached as a text file for downloading. Please post this on every BBS you're on.... Date: Saturday, August 15, 1992 1:14pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kali Msg#: 230020 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: BBSing and your First Amendment Rights File: 230020.ATT I tried to u/l this last night, but it didn't go right, so here it is again,.... For those of you who were not watching the yellow journalism hack job done by WWOR/Channel 9 tonight on their 10:00 news, there is a big to-do about the availability of "adult" materials (GIFs and messages) on BBSs. One woman out in New Jersey is so riled up over the fact that her 13-year-old son got GIFs of nude women that she wrote bagfuls of letters to various NJ officials--and apparently, she contacted the quote-unquote "journalists" over at WWOR to spread the word about how BBSs are supposedly corrupting the minds of our youth. Now the National Coalition Against Pornography is involved, their spokeswoman Nancy Clausen having spoken quite vehemently on WWOR, and CNN is planning to do stories on it this coming weekend. The other major networks, doubtless, will follow, as this is a story about sex, and illicit sex at that (at least in their eyes)--good for ratings. I speak as a former journalist, and I can say the job WWOR did on this story was nothing short of a hatchet job. It was a pure journalistic abortion. They did not even begin to represent the adult BBS community in anything vaguely resembling a fair light. There was only one Sysop interviewed, and he was one who runs a board which has unrestricted access to adult material. His only concrete comment on this was that the parents should monitor their children's actions--and the same Sysop is alleged to own shares in three porn theatres in Times Square. He's going to be easy to discredit. Be forewarned, Sysops, Sigops, and users. Be vigilant about new users. Watch anyone new who calls up for adult access. I have heard of some boards in Jersey who ask you to fax proof of age before gaining access... and perhaps they are wise. Be careful. We're in for some bad times. I'd advise everyone to download this and the following post, and upload them to EVERY BBS you call. We as a community have to stick together in this. This is another case where our First Amendment rights could become further abridged than they are already... and God in all his\her myriad forms knows this is something we cannot accept. For those who feel like writing letters, the following names may come in handy: Paul Rosenberg, Producer of the news story featured tonight on WWOR Al White, Reporter on this story for WWOR Horatio Jennings, Editor on this story for WWOR Rep. Matthew Renaldo, the leading Republican in Congress on FCC regulations Roone Arledge, President, ABC News Senator Alfonse D'Amato (R-NY) Senator Daniel Moynihan (D-NY) Rep. Steven Solarz (D-NY) I wish I could think of more off the top of my head, but I am writing this in a rather hasty fashion in order to upload it as quickly as humanly possible. Don't sit back and let your rights be taken from you. You have the right to fight for what you believe, and this is a fight we can't afford to lose if we want to continue as we are. Lori L. Bloomer ("Kali") Serdar Yegulalp ("Corrosion".) It's also attached as a text file-- PLEASE, please d/l this, and u/l it to as many BBSes as you possibly can. Strength in numbers.... plus, send in the petitions, to as many congressmen as you can aford stamps and envelopes.... Please, please, don't sit back--ACT! This is especially important to us at AH, and at every other adult board, because there is talk of licensing BBSes and regulating content--which means a lot of the debate in this sig alone might not be safe. Please, please... I am asking this as both a former employee of two major news outlets and a BBSer... take a stand, write letters, send postcards, STAND UP for your right to speak freely online. Date: Saturday, August 15, 1992 5:47pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vibrantm Msg#: 230200 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: SENATORS.DBF File: SENATORS.DBF (2 replies) Dbase format file of the one hundred senators, with telephone and fax numbers. Date: Saturday, August 15, 1992 5:51pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vibrantm Msg#: 230201 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: congress.txt File: CONGRESS.TXT (1 reply) All members of congress- a text file with senators and representatives. Date: Saturday, August 22, 1992 11:45pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Dti Msg#: 232974 To: Evan *EXEMPT* Re: Guns!!! (Reply to #232758, Reply to #231695,*) (3 replies) Because there is this bit in the Constitution that states that citizens are allowed to have guns as personal posessions. There is another bit in there that states that one has freedom of speech. There are a few other big points laid out in the document as well. Difficulty of acquisition is a blur on the issue. If the issue at hand is the level of violence at hand in these days. I deal with a population at my work that is something of a cross section of the general population of the country, and there are far more assaults committed with edged weapons or blunt instruments than with firearms, and no one seriously regulates the posession of canes or screwdrivers. The person utilizing the object is the mechanism of injury. Insofar as laws go regarding guns, I feel that the setup in California when I lived there made a hell of a lot more sense than what exists in NYC, and works better as well: Registration of any firarm upon purchase at the gun store, with the State. Fifteen day wait for anything with a barrel shorter than 16 inches. I'd even go for a national law that would INVALIDATE ALL LOCAL LAWS that would require a fifteen day wait on any gun buy, with none of this stupid six months that we have here. If most illegal NYC guns come from other states, that might help, but by no means would I stand still for laws that would prevent me, a sane non junky of adult years, from owning any firearm I choose. I have always been legal. The problem comes from those who have no conception of regard for law. Not from me. Date: Monday, August 24, 1992 1:07pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vibrantm Msg#: 233949 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: SYSOP jailed for adult BBS activities (3 replies) This is a THROBNET post which unfortunately is NOT fiction: ____________________________________________________________________ Time Stamp: 08-19-92 23:00 Subject: SYSOP GETS BUSTED! z Newsgroup: alt.sex z Subject: Sysop busted for porno in Ohio! In today's paper (Cleveland Plain Dealer) it was reported that a 22-year old male got arrested for distributing pornography, and possibly for contributing to the delinquency of a minor. His "crime" was running a bulletin board out of his home ... the cops found out that minors were able to get ahold of pornographic gif files. The arrestee had apparently set things up so that "adult" files were supposed to be restricted, but either the files weren't restricted after all, or someone else had "unrestricted" them. The paper reports that this type of arrest is one of the first of its kind in the state. The cops used a "cooperative" 15 year old -- after the kid accessed the adult files, the cops grabbed the alleged criminal. The following is a reprint (without permission) of the Cleveland Plain Dealer article : > > **SYSOP ARRESTED FOR PORNO FILES TO JUVENILES** > Mark Lehrer, sysop of AKRON ANOMALY BBS > > MUNROE FALLS OH, July 21, 1992. Munroe Falls Police Chief > Steve Stahl knows computers are big with kids these days, but he > never thought he'd see the day when a healthy 15-year-old boy would > choose a floppy disk over a Playboy centerfold. > > But now that Stahl's seen some of the floppy disks popular > with local youths, he understands the fascination. > > "Give me any kid, I know what he's going to download," Stahl > said. > > In May, Munroe Falls Police received a complaint from a > resident who feared that a local computerized community BBS > containing sexually explicit material might be accessible to > children. > Stahl said the resident showed him files called "Alison" and > "amber," both of which featured naked women. He told the concerned > resident, "Oh, well, I can see how that would be upsetting." > For the past two months, police conducted an investigation and > sting using a local 15-year-old boy. After the youth was able to > hook into the BBS, police arrested Mark Lehrer, 22, owner and > operator of AKRON ANOMALY, a 1000 member BBS. POLICE ALSO SEIZED > ALL OF LEHRER'S COMPUTER EQUIPMENT. > Lehrer is accused of distributing graphic sexual material via > a computer modem from the Munroe Falls home of his parents, David and > Susan Lehrer. His father, also a computer professional, is chairman of > the Village's Charter Review Commission. Mark has been charged in > Cuyahoga Falls Municipal Court with one count each of disseminating > matter harmful to juveniles and possession of criminal tools - in this > case, his computer and graphic files. > A preliminary hearing is scheduled for July 21, 1992. The > case will probably be turned over to a Summit County Grand Jury, > which means potential indictment for a felony and, if convicted, > over a year in state prison. > Chief Stahl said this will be the first case in northeast Ohio > and one of the first in the state, in which an adult is accused of > distributing graphic sexual materials *to juveniles* via a > computer. > "There's not a whole lot of case law on this kind of this," he > said, adding that most material comes from books, magazines or > movies. > According to Stahl, members of AKRON ANOMALY paid $15 to $30 > a year to call the board, giving access to games like chess, > basketball, euchre, programming instructions and *.GIF files - > (G)raphic (I)nterface (F)iles, that feature pictures from James > Bond to Capt. Kirk to Scooby-Doo. > Some are labeled specifically for adults and are not supposed > to be accessible to those under 18, while many others are contained > in a general directory. However, when police seized Lehrer's > records, they found that even the "clean" files contained images > "not entirely wholesome." > "One was Bugs Bunny eating a carrot, one was Bart Simpson > riding a skateboard, and one was called (a slang term for oral sex) > and that was in the 'clean' file," Stahl said. > Stahl said many files not listed in the "adult" category > contained pictures of naked women and of naked women engaging in > sexual acts. One file allegedly shows a nude image of Christina > Applegate, who plays "Kelly" on the TV show "Married with Chil- > dren." > "Parents are happy their kids are upstairs using their > computers. The one parent we talked to was thrilled they weren't > finding PLAYBOY magazine. Well, I've got news for you, this is a > rude awakening," Stahl said. > In addition to the "graphic still images," juveniles were able > to access adult movies, which are shown on computer monitors. > "It's like watching cable TV. It's a very clear picture," Stahl > said. > Stahl said computer experts with the Ohio Bureau of Criminal > Identification and Investigation are reviewing the hundreds of > computer files seized from Lehrer's home. Stahl said it's possible > that some of the games and movies are being accessed in violation > of copyright laws. ************* end repost ******************* The latest comments indicate the sysop was JAILED for 2 YEARS! Fined $6500.00 and police confiscated all his equipment. --- THROBNET Adult Mail Network Date: Thursday, August 27, 1992 12:51pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vibrantm Msg#: 235378 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: THEPREZ.ZIP File: THEPREZ.ZIP Fact crammed file archive which contains a handy quiz format presenting political and biographical information about all the presidents from Washington to Reagan. Date: Wednesday, September 23, 1992 10:51pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vibrantm Msg#: 237402 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: CLINTON.ZIP is a Cornucopia of Position Papers File: CLINTON.ZIP (1 reply) The attached file contains the official Clinton/Gore campaign position papers on major issues, as of August 1992 Date: Wednesday, September 23, 1992 11:01pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vibrantm Msg#: 237407 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Clinton Biographical Sketch Bill Clinton Biography BORN: August 19, 1946, Hope AR MARTIAL STATUS: married (Hillary in 1975) RELIGION: Baptist EDUCATION: Georgetown Univ, BS, FS 1968 Rhodes Scholar, Oxford Univ., 1968-70 Yale Univ., JD 1973 POLITICAL & GOV'T POSITIONS: 1972 George McGovern campaign worker 1974 Democratic Nominee for US House of Reps. 1975 Chairman Housing Development Corp. 1976-78 Arkansas Attorney General 1978-80 Governor of Arkansas, lost in 1980 1982-PR Governor of Arkansas, term expires Jan. 1995 ELECTION RESULTS (GOVERNOR) 1990 General Bill Clinton (D) 57% Nelson Sheffield (R) 42% Primary Bill Clinton (D) 55% Tom McRae (D) 39% 1986 General Bill Clinton (D) 64% Frank White (R) 36% Primary Bill Clinton (D) 61% Orval E. Faubus (D) 33% 1984 General Bill Clinton (D) 63% Woody Freeman (R) 37% Primary Bill Clinton (D) 64% Connie Tucker (D) 24% 1982 General Bill Clinton (D) 55% Frank D. White (R) 45% Runoff Bill Clinton (D) 42% Joe Purcell (D) 29% 1980 General Frank D. White (R) 52% Bill Clinton (D) 48% 1978 General Bill Clinton (D) 63% A. Lynn Lowe 37% Primary Bill Clinton 60% Joe Woodward 22% NOTE: It appears from 1978-86, term for Gov was 2 years. From 1986,the term was 4 years. BUSINESS & PROFESSIONAL POSITIONS: 1973-76 Professor of Law, Univ. of Ark. at Fayetteville 1973-76 Attorney, private practice 1981-82 Attorney, Wright, Lindsay & Jennings, Little Rock HONORS & AWARDS: 1988 Distinguished Service Award, Council of Chief State Officers MEMBERSHIPS: National Governor's Association (Chairman 1987) Education Committee of States (Chairman 1987) National Association of Attorney Generals SUMMARY FROM THE 1992 ALMANAC OF AMERICAN POLITICS: As a politician, Bill Clinton has a lot going for him: brains, charm, sure political instincts, a genuine interest in real-world problems. However, he has had problems governing Arkansas. Education was Clinton's major focus and the one issue where he spent the majority of his time. From the beginning, he knew that to ensure Arkansas of a higher wage economy, it must have a higher-skill work force. Implementing this vision has not been easy for him. In 1983, he pushed through a reform package in the state legislature that included competency tests for new and working teachers, a teachers pay raise and a sales tax increase to pay for it. Teachers' groups vigorously opposed the tests, and the sales tax hike did not generate enough money for his programs. In 1987 and 1988, the legislature turned down his tax package twice. In 1989, it passed his entire education package, except for the taxes, which meant that teachers got raises of $1000 rather than $4000. The package included the following changes: choice provisions allowing parents to choose their children's schools, even across district lines, provided there is not a segregationist effect; mandatory kindergarten and mandatory curriculums for high schools; annual report cards for college faculty and schools; fines for parents of chronic truants; revocation of driver's licenses of school dropouts; reenactment of consolidation incentives for Arkansas's 300-plus school districts; banning beepers in schools and strict penalizes for drug sales near schools. In January 1991, the legislature passed a half-cent sales tax increase, which Clinton signed into law. These taxes were designed to raise teacher salaries by $4000 over the next two years, in addition to funding other educational programs. By the early 1990's, these reforms had not had their intended impact on education. Clinton's political opponents blamed him for low teacher pay, low test scores, neglecting the environment and raising taxes too much. During the 1990 campaign, his Republican opponent Nelson Sheffield, campaigned that ten years of Clinton was enough. In order to disarm voters' suspicions that he was too interested in national politics, Clinton promised not to run for President in 1992. In refuting opponents arguments that he is stale, he pointed to his latest ideas: new highways, apprenticeship programs and boot camps for nonviolent offenders. Clinton has shown that he is energetic and innovative, but can his programs help Arkansas overcome its natural disadvantages and compete in across the country and globe. During all this turmoil, Clinton has remained a nationally significant politician. He considered running for President in 1988, but declined saying it would be unfair to his 7-year old daughter. He co-chaired the National Governors' Conference task force on setting specific educational goals in connection of President Bush's 1989 Education Summit. In 1990, he became head of the moderate-leaning Democratic Leadership Conference. Date: Wednesday, September 23, 1992 11:02pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vibrantm Msg#: 237410 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Don't Forget Hillary . . (1 reply) Hillary Rodham Clinton Biography Hillary Rodham Clinton, named one of "The 100 Most Influential Lawyers in America" in 1988 and 1991 by The National Law Journal, is a nationally recognized advocate of children's rights, the public education system and is an expert in the changing roles of women in our society. A partner in the Rose Law Firm of Little Rock, Arkansas, she specializes in litigation. She has served as chair of the board of directors of the Children's Defense Fund and the American Bar Association Commission on Women in the Profession and is a member of the board of the National Center on Education and the Economy. She also serves on the boards of Wal-Mart Stores, Inc., the Arkansas Childrens' Hospital and Southern Development Bancorportation. As Chair of the Arkansas Education Standards Committee from 1983-1984, Hillary Clinton recommended that substantial changes be made to the accreditation standards for the state's public schools, standards which later served as a model for other states across the nation. In 1969, she graduated with high honors from Wellesley College in Wellesley, Massachusetts where she was President of College Government. She received her law degree in 1973 from Yale Law School. At Yale she was Director of the Barristers' Union and served on the Board of Editors of the Yale Review of Law and Social Action. Hillary Clinton worked for the Impeachment Inquiry Staff of the Judiciary Committee of the United States House of Representatives in 1974 which investigated former President Nixon's involvement in Watergate. She later taught at the Schools of Law at the University of Arkansas in Fayettevile and in Little Rock and served as the Director of the University of Arkansas' Legal Aid Clinic. An author and a lecturer, Hillary Clinton has been asked to speak around the country on many issues including education, children and families, and the changing roles of women. She has received Honorary Doctor of Laws Degrees from the University of Arkansas at Little Rock, 1985, and Arkansas College, Batesville, Arkansas, 1988, and was named Arkansas Woman of the Year in 1983 and Arkansas Honor Young Mother of the Year in 1984. Hillary Rodham Clinton is married to Governor Bill Clinton of Arkansas. They have a daughter, Chelsea, age 12. Date: Thursday, September 24, 1992 2:44pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Dti Msg#: 237537 To: Vibrantm *EXEMPT* Re: 5,000 Dead Nazis Endorse Butch! (Reply to #237397) (4 replies) This is a spurious transmission we received from the bottom of the ocean late last night, get it while it's hot like a potatoe... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- REUTERS/BLACK STAR 0302 9/24/92 @ RAYBRNS>ECC 5,000 dead nazis yesterday rasped their enduring love and acclaim for the underdog in the wholly existential race for Prez of the U S of A, at an underground chasm located at 38 degrees north, 92 degrees 14 minutes west of the meridian. The adorers of George Herbert Hoover Walker Upright Shagmaster Butch shivered noticeably in the sedimentary mineral formations they call home. They unanimously voted to endorse the incumbent in the upcoming gala electoral sham. They pledged to do whatever they could, including but not limited to: raising funds, emanating vague hostility, and perhaps even actual physical motion, if it would ensure the Incumbent a few more years before he must join this particular group. The Administration had no comment when agents of this agency called to confirm a response. Date: Thursday, November 5, 1992 2:29pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vibrantm Msg#: 250726 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Charming Anecdote about the Losers (5 replies) Today's New York Times discusses the Bush campaign failure, and the following little vignette is worth sharing: ----------------------------------------------------------------- The White House political director, Ron Kaufman, said he spent Tuesday evening in his hotel room, monitoring the vote with his two daughters, ages 11 and 13. Upon learning of Mr. Bush's loss, Mr. Kaufman said, the younger girl was dispirited. "Does this mean Mike Deland will be out of a job?" she asked, naming one White House official she knew, the head of the Council on Environmental Quality. "You dummy," her sister was said to have repied, "Every adult you know is out of a job." ----------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wednesday, November 11, 1992 2:40pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Sysop Msg#: 254301 To: Kkid *EXEMPT* Re: Religion and marriage (Reply to #254191, Reply to #253869, Reply to #253672, R*) (5 replies) KK>it all depends on how religous you are. Sounds to me like how prejudiced one is. We're all people, and any religion that makes distinctions between different types of people whereby some are acceptable in a particular capacity and some are not is a religion that preaches hate. It's too bad that so many religious institutions think like this. The fact is that we're all people, and when organized religion realizes this, maybe it will stop feeding the idea that some people are better than others. Going back to your specific example, Jews are no more the chosen people than are the Rastafarians, so what makes it ok for Jewish law to discriminate against certain of God's children. Does Jewish law indeed say that non-Jews are inferior, and if so, how is this rationalized? And finally, rather than sitting Shiva when a Jew marries out of the faith, wouldn't it make more sense to sit some sort of celebration of happiness that 2 of God's children have made a committment to one another and that another family has been created. I thought the Jewish religion was centered around the family, or is it just "acceptable" families? I guess most of what I've said could apply to a lot of religions, not just Judaism, but the thing about sitting shiva doesn't seem to fit the family-oriented philosophy of Judaism as perceived by an "outsider". Oh yeah, none of this is directed at you specifically, Sheldon, I just ask in order to have a better understanding. Date: Sunday, November 15, 1992 2:26am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vibrantm Msg#: 256158 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Topical - How to Understand Certain Mentalities (2 replies) **B00000000000000 Friends - a very choice spoof of a hard-to-humorize subject. Floating around on the Internet this month (11-92). Not my authorship. ----------------------------------------------------------------- WORLD WAR II: THE MYTH OF THE TWENTIETH CENTURY We have all heard the stories about World War II. How the Germans invaded Poland. How the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. How the "Allied forces" landed in Normandy. How the US exploded an "atomic bomb." One might think that World War II is as factual as possible. Didn't thousands fight in the war and millions die? Wasn't the war documented in newspaper and radio reports of the day? Hasn't there been copious amounts of literature written about this "War to End All Wars?" Recent evidence, however, shows a much different story. Most reputable historians now discount the myth of World War Two, but this information is not getting out to the public. PEARL HARBOR For most Americans, World War II really started with the supposed Japanese "bombing" of Pearl Harbor. However, noted professor Dr. Ploktin Qwerty, an expert of Japanese aviation, has written extensively on the capabilities of 1940's vintage Japanese Zero bombers. "They couldn't reach Tokyo from Osaka, let alone Hawaii!" he wrote in his 1984 article for the Journal of Historical Fact. "Given their wingspans, method of propulsion and payload, the only way they could have reached any U.S. territories is as submarines![1]" FIRST-HAND ACCOUNTS Serious historians now agree that the supposed "first-hand accounts" of soldiers who are alleged to have actually fought against the German and Japanese forces are notoriously inaccurate. In one celebrated instance, one soldier claimed to have heard three bombs in ten seconds, and another soldier *in his same unit* claimed to hear only two! [2] University of Chattanooga Professor Ernest W. Wykol has gone back and examined the barracks where American soldiers stayed in Europe. He found such items as pin-up calendars, paperback books and pinochle decks.[3] Hardly what one would expect soldiers fighting for freedom and democracy would be occupying themselves with. In fact, evidence is mounting that American "soldiers" actually spent their entire stay in Europe and the Pacific *playing cards*. As noted historian Odioun Flatcher has discovered, card playing was extremely popular in the forties, to the point of entire newspaper columns devoted to the subject! [4] THE TRAGIC ACCIDENT As Flatcher has reconstructed events, the British, French, US and Germans all sent thousands of "soldiers" to play cards at various sites in Europe. In one tournament in Lyons, a tragic explosion occurred at a nearby fireworks factory, killing and injuring hundreds of players. THESE WERE THE ONLY CASUALTIES OF "WORLD WAR II." The media showed the injured and dead soldiers in photographs many, many times to give the impression of a "war" with continuous casualties. That this is a myth can be seen clearly; Flatcher documented one case where the New York Times showed a picture of an injured soldier on a Tuesday and the Philadelphia Bulletin showed the exact same picture on a Thursday. THE KAMIKAZE LIE It was certainly in the evil media's interest to make the war up, and to make the "enemies" as ruthless and evil as possible. One notorious example is the lie that Japanese aviators were actually encouraged to destroy their valuable aircraft (and themselves) by crashing them into the sides of US ships. Dr. Rubert Faurr, a French professor of basket-weaving, has quoted no less an authority than General Douglas MacArthur on his reaction when he heard the first rumor about these supposed suicide missions. "That's ridiculous!" MacArthur exclaimed. Honest Japanese people will also admit how absurd this claim is. The word "kamikaze" actually means "he who herds the sheep" in certain Japanese dialects, according to Japan expert Mort Clondyke.[5] And Atoyot Adnoh, currently Japanese minister of history in the Diet, has stated publically that "that whole episode was really crazy." [6] THE MYTHMAKERS As more of these inconsistencies get exposed, it truly becomes more difficult to believe what we have learned in history books (from companies with names like Simon and Shuster.) It is outside the scope of this article to speculate on who could have started and perpetuated the major myth of this century, but one only has to look at the preposterous battle cry as the Japanese are said to have flown over to attack the most powerful nation on the planet: "Tora[h], Tora[h], Tora[h]!" It isn't difficult to come up with the answers. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- [1] "Give Me a Laser Printer and I Can Publish Anything," Adolph Publishers, Frenzy, MD, 1973. [2] "The Great War: It Was Fantastic!," Revised History R Us, Izan Publishing House, Stuttgart, OK, 1984. [3] Wykol, Ernest, "The Most Fun a War Could Be," *The Journal of Historical Fiction*, Impress Press, Erie, MO, 1982. [4] Flatcher, Odioun, and others, "War Games: The Pinochle Championship of 1944," Izan Publishers, Stuttgart, MI, 1985. [5] Klondyke, Mort, "Japanese for People Who Don't Care," Surabi Press, Dayton, OH, 1864. [6] Proceedings of People who Need to Get a Life, page 32, available in fine libraries everywhere. (This is a spoof of Holocaust revisionist articles.) ----------------------------------------------------------------- End of Internet Posting------------------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, December 2, 1992 6:18pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Slope Hope Msg#: 264875 To: Lythande *EXEMPT* Re: Ignorant h.s. students (Reply to #262357, Reply to #262172, Reply to #261951, R*) (2 replies) Involvement is the key. I'm not suggesting that you can solve all problems all at once, but small victories and improvements are possible. 1. Know your kids' teachers - speak to them at all opportunities, and don't be afraid to call 'em on the phone if you have a concern. They may not be immediately responsive, but generally persistence will pay off - when a teacher knows that a particular student's parents are actively concerned and involved, then very often the teacher will look at that student in a different light or with higher quality attention. 2. You sound like you keep tabs on your kids' homework, but many parents do not. You should not be doing the homework, and you need not understand all of it, but checking notebooks periodically, having your child review assignments with you, etc. will keep you better-informed and will let your child know that your interest and support is genuine. 3. Try to attend PTA meetings and/or events. If my experience is representative, and other PTA people from other schools tell me it is, then the biggest challenge high school PTA's have is getting the parents to be involved and informed, to PARTICIPATE in their childrens' educations. By being informed and involved, a parent will know who the administrative "players" are, where the power is, who's making (or avoiding) key decisions, and what the hot issues are. Then, an active PTA can put pressure on the right people to do something positive to solve problems, and can follow up to see that solutions/improvements really happen. Schools belong to parents ONLY when the parents unite and exert their influence. When most parents sit back, then schools either deteriorate or are at the mercy of outspoken extremists who do not represent mainstream/majority opinions & concerns. Chris Date: Wednesday, December 2, 1992 7:14pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Slope Hope Msg#: 264912 To: Jesse *EXEMPT* Re: Dinkins is a racist bastard (per Jesse) (Reply to #263631, Reply to #262164, Reply to #261916, R*) (3 replies) I know you do not consider yourself racist, and I respect that. Dinkins is not responsible for those deaths, the murderers who committed them are. Your statements about black power t-shirts, etc, would be accurate if the history of white opprssion of blacks were not what it is. The reason that "white power" is distasteful, at this point in time, while "black power" is not, is because the last 400-odd years have been nothing but "white power!" It is only now that African Americans are starting to become empowered, and for some this means overt expressions of self-pride which were nonexistent for centuries. This is critical: You CANNOT view the present without considering the historical context!!!! To do so is to hide your eyes from reality and to fail to understand what it means to be black in this country. Over time, as (I fervently hope) racism gradually subsides - over generations - then eventually overt expressions of self-pride like "black power" will fade away, because mutual respect among all people will be the rule, and not the exception, as it is today. Last thought: GO SEE THE MOVIE MALCOLM X!!! Maybe, just maybe, you'll get some insight on the true nature of racism and the need for black pride. Chris Date: Monday, December 7, 1992 2:42am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Atha Msg#: 267470 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: A BIGOT BY OMMISSION TEACHING BIGOTRY BY OMISSION (Copy by Sysop) (9 replies) I happened to tape the news one night last week. I taped the president of Public School District 29, Claudette Webb, saying the following about her opposition to the Rainbow Curriculum: "...not to say that we are not going to teach tolerance and respect for all people. It's just that we will not be referring to Lesbians and gays." that's a direct verbatim quote. Am I right in thinking that the conscious act of not telling children about the existence of a 12% segment of society is an act of bigotry by omission? What do YOU think? Date: Monday, December 7, 1992 11:59am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 267647 To: Scarlett *EXEMPT* Re: ALL are not created equal-we ALL are individuals (Reply to #267447, Reply to #267288, Reply to #261858, R*) (6 replies) Perhaps we should start realizing that ALL are not created equal, but that we ALL are individuals with unique individual characteristics. Not all Jews are cheap, not all Mexicans take siestas, not all Italians eat pasta, and not all Blacks eat watermelon. There are some Jews who love watermelon, some Blacks who are cheap, some Italians who take siestans and some Mexicans who eat pasta. We take the statement that every one was created equal and really believe that ALL of each race is equal and that one bad apple spoils the whole bunch. Date: Thursday, December 31, 1992 12:36am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Mindless Msg#: 280019 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: comsense.zip File: COMSENSE.ZIP (1 reply) common sense by tom paine... mindless. Date: Wednesday, January 20, 1993 4:25pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Lythande Msg#: 292085 To: Quincy *EXEMPT* Re: If we all agreed in /Curevent....... (Reply to #291823, Reply to #291576, Reply to #290570, R*) (4 replies) Yup! Can you imagine if we all agreed? Jesse: Why, you're right, Lythande - I'll get rid of my shotguns and Doberman today! Lythande: Yes, Jesse, Affirmative Action is wrong and I'm going to write to that wonderful Gov. Cuomo and tell him so, right after I join the Young Republicans Club. Sysop: Yes, Lythande, I just got my membership card in the ACLU and I can't wait to show it to Jesse! Kali: All of Jesse's posts will be *EXEMPT* from now on. In fact, I think I'll start listening to Howard Stern and Rush Limbaugh. Slope Hope: The human race is hopeless. Everyone buy a gun and start shooting the first person they see. mindless: The U.S. has got the most stable economy in the world and the media tells the truth and nothing but the truth. Quincy: All prisoners should be treated with kindness and compassion and get off with no consequences the first ten times. Enough! You get the idea....... After you, Alphonse....... Hmmmmm - wonder which one of you will kill me first! (or, one of the people I didn't mention 'cause I ran outta silliness?) Date: Thursday, June 24, 1993 2:41am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Rand Msg#: 371273 To: Slope Hope *EXEMPT* Re: Rights File: 371273.ATT (Reply to #370010, Reply to #369965, Reply to #369603, R*) (2 replies) SH>I look forward to the opportunity to read your article, because you have SH>an interesting outlook (and a sharp mind, too!). SH>If Rhonda Lee is following this: as our resident attorney in training, SH>can you help clarify our understanding of what is a "right"? Okay, I finally retyped the article. I have left it pretty much as it was published except I replaced my name with my handle and deleted some stuff that non-Brandeis students wouldn't get 'cause I thought it was kind of obnoxious to have inside jokes. The article is Copyright 1992 the author and _The_Brandeisian_ magazine. Date: Thursday, June 24, 1993 3:03am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Rand Msg#: 371279 To: Conundrum *EXEMPT* Re: Special Treatment File: 371279.ATT (Reply to #370389, Reply to #370376, Reply to #370141, R*) (1 reply) CO>And if everyone has that right and is as biased as most are in some CO>parts of this country, CO>BANG! CO>instant ghetto. CO> You are thinking with your heart; the idea is to stop harm which CO>is allready happening, you might not abuse the privllege, but others would. CO>Private property, as a power over others, is NOT an right, but a CO>societal tool. In fact, our treatment of it as something integral to CO>ourselves has caused more harm than any other boneheaded idea (and there CO>are many, many) in our society. CO>Conundrum||murdnunoC Excuse me, but who produces this private property? If I don't create that job, there is no job. There is a job that is mine to provide or not to provide to whomever I please. It is the disregard of private property that has caused harm in this society. It is the theft of people's property that continues to destroy society. I guess I'm gonna have to post a chunk of Ayn Rand here... This is an excerpt from _Atlas_Shrugged_. It explains why money is definitely NOT the root of all evil, and why private property must be respected as an extension of each human's right to his own life. TANSTAAFL, Rand I'm Pro-Choice on Everything! Date: Saturday, July 3, 1993 10:39am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Lythande Msg#: 374341 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Abortion (5 replies) Following is the text of an open letter in the Times which was printed in February of 1989: "Abortion and the Sacredness of Life" An Open Letter To Those Who Would Ban Abortion Did you know that abortion can be a religion requirement? Not just permitted, but *required*? (I put the asterisks - the word was originally in italics.) In some religious traditions, if the fetus endangers the life of the mother, abortion is not a matter of choice; it is mandatory! The conflict over abortion is not between "secularists" and "religionists," between "moral" people who value life and "immoral" people who do not, but between different moral traditions, different understandings of the sacredness of life. According to some religious traditions, the sacredness of life can be diminished far more by callousness to those already born than to the unborn, however precious their promise. These religious traditions believe that this sacredness of life requires in some circumstances that the woman's well-being takes precedence over that of the fetus. Legislation that denies a woman's choice is objectionable not because it limits some abstract notion of unrestrained freedom, but because it may inflict irreparable damage to the human dignity of the woman who is carrying the fetus. Judaism affirms that nascent life has great value. But it is not the only value. In the face of the kind of desperation that drives women to risk their lives and mutilate their bodies rather than carry the fetus to term, no one has the right to say that other conflicting values do not exist. When faced with such conflicting values, individuals should be able to turn to their own moral traditions or religious faith for guidance. Government has no business preempting that very personal process, leaving women trapped wtihout a choice. We do not propose that a particular religious view of abortion find expression in legislation. That would be violating someone else's religious freedom. And many people's moral chices regarding abortion are deeply personal, and not determined by any particular religious tradition. In the face of such great moral and religious diversity, the proper rule of government in a free society is to allow the different traditions to advocate their respective views, and to leave the decision to the woman, answering to God and to her conscience. Date: Friday, September 17, 1993 8:06am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Walts Msg#: 392408 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Highway.zip File: HIGHWAY.ZIP The attached file contains the bulk of the recent Newsday series, "The Electronic Highway." If anyone would like me to UL the files as either one large ASCII file, or as individual ASCII files, just let me know... REgards, WaltS Date: Wednesday, October 6, 1993 8:17pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Homi Msg#: 398927 To: Lane *EXEMPT* Re: Are we heading towards a socialist,statist regime? (Reply to #398860, Reply to #398599, Reply to #398303, R*) (1 reply) LA>This may be a really ignorant question....but I figure I can learn LA>something by asking it..so, why do you think we're heading towards a LA>socialist, statist regime? Because of the health care reform? I think it is many different things. I believe this health care reform is buy 1 of many reasons why we are heading towards a statist regime. Imagine doctors not being able to practice privately, or for you to see a doctor that YOU want to see, regardless of what one of these Regional alliances say & you would be breaking the law if you try to, and pay for it with your own money. Nothing outside the alliances will be allowed! This again, is just 1 aspect. There is the "clipper" chip controversy which is an attempt by the government to design an encryption means, and devise a standard that allows them to retain the ability to decrypt <& subsequantly "wiretap/eavsedrop"> a conversation. There is the Brady Bill, which seems harmless now, but in 2 years when it fails to reduce crime, we will see an attempt to ban various firearms. We are seeing the possibility of a tougher "Fairness Doctrine" passed, which would silence more popular political commentators & stifle free speech by those on the right and on the left. More? How about another Tax increase to reduce the budget deficit which continues to grow, thanks to the explosion in health care costs because of Hillary Rodham Clinton's new proposal, this one aimed directly at the middle class because "we must all sacrafice" and we will do a 1990/1993 budget deal for a 3rd time. Along with tax increases comes a new "car" from the Big 3 and government. An unsafe, 1600 lb car that gets 80 mpg and reaches 60mph in a week, the cars are released to the general public as "sports/y" cars are pulled off the market. With sales in a steep decline for the american automakers, a wave of protectionism sweeps across washington & detroit & imports are severely restricted, and the mandate to produce the American trabant is extended to foreign automakers in the US. With the failure of Nafta, America becomes a closed market to most imports as prices skyrocket, inflation rages upwards and importers/distributors collapse & go bankrupt. With unemployment increasing, there is a demand for Clinton to extend unemployment benefits for another 26 weeks and for clinton to increase taxes on business/the rich to pay for the "Even Newer Deal" of social programs, designed to guarantee eveyone a "job" a steady income and free health care. Date: Saturday, October 9, 1993 8:29pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 399491 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: BBS Tax File: 399491.ATT (1 reply) The attached file is a copy of the new NYS tax increasing the sales tax on "telephone delivered serves" by an additional 5%. Some boards around town are referring to it as the BBS tax. It went into effect 9/1/93. Date: Sunday, October 17, 1993 7:21pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Homi Msg#: 403086 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Health.txt File: HEALTH.TXT Read this file I found on the net people about the health care plan :) Date: Thursday, November 18, 1993 9:10am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Homi Msg#: 416681 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Decline of Civilization (2 replies) Today I learned something that surprised & shocked me even more, as if I wasn't shocked enough regarding that gang sodomy those 6 feral "children" committed the other day. They had occosted another woman, about 1/2 hour earlier, but desisted when 1 of the feral children said "hey, thats my aunt, leave her alone." Imagine if that feral youth had not recognized her. Our society is in decay, and the rationalizing of this sort of violence is sickening; or rationalizing it as being symptomatic of "poverty" as if during the worst period of povcrty in our times, the Great Depression, saw this same sort of rampant crime. During prohibition era, gangsters shot up the streets and blood of bootleggers filled the guttters, but during that period we were outraged and shocked when 6 people died in 1 day. There was no lamenting the circumstances of what caused the murders, there was no romanticizing it. Today, we have black leaders who when talking about crime, have a fixation on police brutality while ignoring the greater threat to their community- feral children run amock. How many cases every year are there of cops shooting a black person? How many times is it considered justified? It doesn't happen very often, thank God but whatever the number, it does not compare to the carnage that blacks have been committing against other blacks. For years, the Jacksons, Sharptons, Herbert Londons, Chavises, Maxine Waters, and the rest of the so called "black leadership" has refused to discuss black on black crime, instead focusing on issues that do not threaten the black community as much as feral youth on a rampage. I am not justifying police brutality, or racism, or any of those problems that people can have a genuine concern; however with all the attention paid to these problems compared to the focus on the black community's crime problem, it seems to me that they get more concerned when a white man kills a black man, than when one of the feral children rapes and robs and kills someone. When they attack a white woman in a park, and savagely beat her and rape her, they claim "Her boyfriend did it" but repreatedly call for justice in the Tawanna Brawley; and remain silent in this case. They repeatedly call for justice but what justice? Justice against whites? Not a goal I'm saying that is wrong, but what of the justice when these feral children finally are punished for the vicious crimes they commit? Mike Tyson rapes a woman and a few years later, they sell T Shirts demanding to "Free Mike Tyson" merely because he's a popular boxer. Had a white man raped Desiree Washington, and people created T Shirts saying "Free ...." what kind of outrage would you hear eminating from the black "leadership"? This week, we see a 6 feral children arrested for a gang anal rape of a 31 year old woman, we've seen 2 feral children attack a 41 year old man, and promptly sent to the place of fire and brimstone with 2 .44 magnum slugs. We see mor feral children attempt to rob off duty cops but what do the leadership worry about? They worry about the washington redskins' being called "The Redskins" and they seek to castrate the police officers' ability to enforce the law. They are willing to protest when AT&T publish a drawing of people all over the world on the phone, and in Africa, a Monkey answers the phone & not a person. But there are no calls for outrage against the 6 feral youths who victimized that poor woman, only to go play basketball when they were finished. There are cries to march in that racist neighborhood, Bensonhurst, when 1 black youth was murdered 4 or 5 years ago, but there are no similar marches when about 100 blacks are killed this year so far in East New York. We have people saying that the 41 year old man "shouldn't have shot _my_boy_" because of the trouble he's in now, and some people saying what he did was cold blooded murder, but the outrage they have over that case is not duplicated with the rampage of 6 feral children, in an empty lot, in East New York. We have people such as Carl Rowan, Sarah Brady, Dianne Feinstien, who call for disarming America, and banning firearms, claiming we dont need guns for personal protection, that this is what the police are for, but these are generally the same people who object to police rough tactics, and bemoan police efforts to catch criminals. These same people also personally have armed body guards, or they themselves are heavily armed and what did Rowan say about the shooting? I dont have the exact quote, but he said 'Im not gonna sit here defenseless and allow my family to be victimized.' How disgusting it is to hear him desire protection for his family but not for mine, or yours. Now, the Senate passed the Crime bill, where 19 sem-automatic rifles, which are often misnamed as being "assault" rifltes, have been banned, including the manufacture of these weapons. Nevermind that these rifles are owned by many citizens and have never been misused. Nevermind that criminals do not usually arm themselves with rifles, but rather use handguns, beause they are easily concealable. And banning handguns does no more to stop criminals from getting guns than banning drugs prevents criminals from getting drugs. Im currently embroiled in a discussion with another use of this BBS and I hope he's reading this, but I doubt he reads this forum anymore. He has called people defending themselves as vigilantism, and sees no difference between murder & killing. He also stated, regarding killing someone threatening you, "2 wrongs dont make a right". Well, hoping he will see this message, is it better for that woman to have been armed and shoot any or all of those feral children who gang sodomized her? Or should she just wait for the police to rescue her, after the fact, facing a long trial where she must relive those 30 minutes, and face the possibility of having HIV or any other venerial disease. How about those off duty cops, were they somehow wrong to use their guns to defend themselves against those feral children? Or is it ok for cops to defend themselves, but not for you and me, because we aren't as important as cops are? We have a society where people are describing paying ministers to not encourage people to vote as "Preventing" people from voting, where people are showing more outrage over that, than gang rapes of women, and the attempted assault on one of those same youths' aunts 1/2 hour prior. This society, where people who are sick of the crime, who can't find a cop when they need one, get thrown in jail because they didn't follow the draconian laws in this, and other cities regarding purchasing of a firearm. This society, where a 92 year old wheelchair bound woman, is terrorized by a youth, and God bless her, shot & killed that feral youth in the throat, killing him before he could victimize her more. This society, where Janet Reno is more concerned about investigating if ministers were paid to vote, than if a lynch mob killed an Australian Hasidic Jew, and if the murderer, who was ID'd and had the man's blood on his knife & money, was wrongfully acquitted. Date: Friday, November 26, 1993 3:14am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Mindless Msg#: 420137 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: consti.zip File: CONSTI.ZIP the u.s. constitution in the form of a hypertext windows help file... obviously y'll require ms windows to use it... mindless. Date: Monday, December 6, 1993 12:38pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Steve Flur Msg#: 424256 To: Lythande *EXEMPT* Re: AIDs Center of Queens County (Reply to #423382, Reply to #421547, Reply to #420850, R*) (1 reply) In Queens you could begin with the AIDS Center of Queens County, 718-896-2500, M-F 9-9. Date: Tuesday, December 7, 1993 4:03pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Rand Msg#: 424677 To: Editor *EXEMPT* Re: brady.zip File: BRADY.ZIP (Reply to #423835, Reply to #423630, Reply to #422498, R*) (2 replies) ED>I've been hoping it would appear on Prodigy. OK - I got it. Here is the Brady Bill off of Compuserve's US News & World Report forum in ZIP format. If anybody needs it in txt format, lemme know. -Rand P.S. I haven't even had a chance to read the thing (or even unzip it!) yet - I got it and logged on here immediately. Date: Monday, December 13, 1993 1:34am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Homi Msg#: 426998 To: Steve Flur *EXEMPT* Re: Guns (Reply to #421888, Reply to #421874, Reply to #418660, R*) (2 replies) SF>A gun remains different in that it is always potentialy dangerous where SF>the other examples are not. Well, lets take a look. With swimming pools, there is a risk of getting "whirlpooled" ... no wait, that only happens to girls in NYC public pools, and isn't as common as other examples. More children drowned in NY state in 1990 than via firearms: In 1990, there was 1 firearms accidental death among children aged 0-14, compared to 46 who drowned, 59 who died in fire, 12 who died in falls, 2 who were poisoned, and 50 classified as "other". total accidents, for people of all ages, broke down as such, in NYstate... Vehicle (2409) 48.0% Falls (840) 17.0% ther (565) 11.0% Poison (398) 8.0% Fire (260) 5.0% Medical (216) 4.0% Suffocation (171) 3.0% Drowning (169) 3.0% Firearms (33) 1.0% Now that was NYstate. I figured I'd look at texas, since Texas has more "lax" gun control laws: ACCIDENTAL DEATHS BY TYPE IN TEXAS: 1990 TOTAL ACCIDENTS: 6,366 Motor Vehicle (3,359) 52.8% Other (770) 12.1% Falls (664) 10.4% Poison (419) 6.6% Drowning (388) 6.1% Fires (272) 4.3% Suffocation, ingested obj. (231) 3.6% Firearms (163) 2.6% Medical (100) 1.6% ACCIDENTAL EATHS AMONG CHILDREN 0-14 IN TEXAS: 1990 TOTAL ACCIDENTS: 578 Motor Vehicle (234) 40.5% Drowning (119) 20.6% Other (104) 18.0% Fires (58) 10.0% Suffocation (35) 6.1% Firearms (28) 4.8% Motor vehicles amount to a significantly higher rate of accidental death in both states, than anything else. Clearly there is danger in the use of a motor vehicle. Now, this clearly does not address the issue of homicide, but I am merely showing that accidental death is far more common with the other products I mentioned than with firearms. Date: Monday, December 13, 1993 8:57pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 427217 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Drug property seizures restricted 1:30 PM (ET) 12/13 Drug Property Seizures Restricted WASHINGTON--The Supreme Court today limited a major weapon in the war on drugs, ruling that people must get a hearing before their property may be seized as linked to illegal drug sales. The 5-4 ruling marks the 2d time in recent months the high court has reined in the government's power to take over property it says was involved in a drug crime. "At stake in this and many other forfeiture cases are the security and privacy of the home and those who take shelter within it," Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote for the court. "Unless exigent circumstances are present, the due process clause requires the government to afford notice and a meaningful opportunity to be heard before seizing real property subject to civil forfeiture," Kennedy said. Last June, the court ruled that seizures of drug-related property are subject to the Constitution's 8th Amendment protection against excessive fines. Today's decision upholds a federal appeals court ruling that said James Good of Hawaii was entitled to be notified and given a hearing before his home was seized. Good was arrested in 1985 after police found 89 pounds of marijuana and vials of hashish at his house in Keaau on the island of Hawaii. He pleaded guilty to promoting a harmful drug and served a year in prison. In 1989, federal agents seized the house and 4-acre property where the drugs had been found. Good was living in Nicaragua at the time and had rented the home to tenants. Good challenged the seizure, saying he was entitled to be notified before the seizure and given a chance to oppose it at a hearing. A federal judge ruled for the government. But the 9th US Circuit Court of Appeals said the seizure without notice or a hearing violated Good's constitutional right to due process. The Supreme Court today agreed. "Good's right to maintain control over his home, and to be free from governmental interference, is a private interest of historic and continuing importance," Kennedy wrote. "Although Congress designed the drug forfeiture statute to be a powerful instrument in enforcement of the drug laws, it did not intend to deprive innocent owners of their property," he said. A Justice Dept lawyer had told the high court the government "doesn't usually tip its hand" before making a seizure, as giving notice and a hearing would require. But Kennedy noted that real estate cannot flee. He said the government can get an order barring someone from selling or destroying property that is the subject of a forfeiture action. Joining Kennedy's opinion were Justices Harry Blackmun, John Paul Stevens, David Souter and Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Dissenting were Chief Justice William Rehnquist and Justices Antonin Scalia, Sandra Day O'Connor and Clarence Thomas. (From AP) Date: Tuesday, December 14, 1993 8:22pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Dna Msg#: 427352 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: AIDS Numbers File: 427352.ATT (1 reply) The first national survey of HIV infection has concluded, with a certain range for statistical error, that the number of Americans infected with HIV is 550,000. "The message is not that the number is 550,000," siad Dr. Geraldine McQuillan, senior infectious-disease epidemiologist for the National Center for Health Statistics. "We think 550,000 is a low estimate...we beleive the correct figure is closer to one million." For those who don't get the joke in the last paragraph: read the next article, which is a repost Date: Wednesday, December 22, 1993 5:40pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Rand Msg#: 429978 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Government cows... (3 replies) I don't remember who was asking about this.... but here it is. Socialism: You have two cows; there is an election. The new government takes one of your cows through taxes and gives it to your neighbor. The neighbor knows nothing about livestock so his new cow dies. Communism: You have two cows; there is a revolution. The new government confiscates both your cows and gives you a small part of the milk they produce. Both cows soon die, but the government is able to get powdered milk on credit from a democratic government. Fascism: You have two cows; there is a military coup. The new government confiscates both your cows and sells you part of the milk for ration coupons. Nazism: You have two cows; there is an assassination. The new government confiscates both your cows and shoots you. New Dealism: You have two cows; there is a depression caused by the government, and then an election. The new government buys your cows with currency it has just printed. It then shoots one cow, hires an unemployed person to milk the other cow, and throws the milk away in order to help raise milk prices. Democracy: You have two cows; there is a surplus of milk and prices are low. You appeal to the government to subsidize your milk for the "good" of the country. The government enacts your program, raises taxes on its citizens, and buys your milk at inflated prices. It then stores the milk in rented warehouses until it spoils or they can find a communist government to buy it on credit (of course) and at a loss (naturally). Capitalism: You have two cows. You sell one cow and buy a bull. There is freedom and prosperity. Well - there you go. Hope it was helpful. -Rand Date: Thursday, December 23, 1993 10:44pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Homi Msg#: 430490 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: jgunctrl.txt File: JGUNCTRL.TXT (1 reply) This was a little text file I found on the internet; I found it rather interesting. It's on the subject of gun control, especially as it relates to jewish history. I figured it might be of some interest to a few users here. Date: Tuesday, December 28, 1993 11:59am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Mindless Msg#: 432258 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: updated bill of rights (3 replies) originally written & conceived by john barlow of the electronic frontier foundation> Amendment 1 Congress shall encourage the practice of Judeo-Christian religion by its own public exercise thereof and shall make no laws abridging the freedom of responsible speech, unless such speech is in a digitized form or contains material which is copyrighted, classified, proprietary, or deeply offensive to non-Europeans, non-males, differently abled or alternatively preferenced persons; or the right of the people peacably to assemble, unless such assembly is taking place on corporate or military property or within an electronic environment, or to make petitions to the government for a redress of grievances, unless those grievances relate to national security. Amendment 2 A well-regulated militia having become irrelevent to the security of the state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms against one another shall nevertheless remain uninfringed, excepting such arms as may be afforded by the poor or those preferred by drug pushers, terrorists, and organized criminals, which shall be banned. Amendment 3 The right of people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures, may be suspended to protect public welfare, and upon the unsupported suspicion of law enforcement officials any place or conveyance shall be subject to immediate search, and if any such places or conveyances or property within them may be permanently confiscated without further judicial proceeding. Amendment 4 No soldier shall, in time of peace, be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, unless that house is thought to have been used for the distribution of illegal substances. Amendment 5 Any person may be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime involving illicit substances, terrorism, or child pornography, or upon any suspicion whatever; and may be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb, once by the state courts and again by the federal judiciary; and may be compelled by various means, including the forced submission of breath samples, bodily fluids, or encryption keys, to be a witness against himself, refusal to do so constituting an admission of guilt; and may be deprived of life, liberty, or property without further legal delay; and any property thereby forfeited shall be dedicated to the discretionary use of law enforcement agencies. Amendment 6 In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and private plea bargaining session before pleading guilty. He is entitled to the assistance of underpaid and indifferent counsel to negotiate his sentence, except where such sentence falls under federal mandatory sentencing requirements. Amendment 7 In suits at common law, where the contesting parties have nearly unlimited resources to spend on legal fees, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved. Amendment 8 Sufficient bail may be required to ensure that dangerous criminals will remain in custody, where cruel punishments are usually inflicted. Amendment 9 The enumeration in the constitution of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others which may be asserted by the government as required to preserve public order, family values, or national security. Amendment 10 The powers not delegated to the u.s. by the constitution, shall be reserved to the u.s. departments of justice and treasury, except when the states are willing to forsake federal funding. Date: Monday, January 3, 1994 8:33pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Homi Msg#: 433814 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: HCI File: 433814.ATT Its interesting the stuff you find on the internet. I found this textfile at an FTP site which had a lot of RKBA files. I'd like to hear a comment or two about Mr. Kopel's piece. Date: Wednesday, January 5, 1994 10:32pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Slope Hope Msg#: 434680 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: ADVERTISEMENT FOR /REALITY (3 replies) While I've been away from AH, I see that the Reality SIG has become the dead zone. At the same time, there is a huge amount of traffic going on here in CurEvent, a great deal of which has little to do directly with current events. So I would like to encourage those of you who want to discuss some of these more open-ended issues to come over and do so in /Reality! We can talk about things like... (PLEASE DO NOT RESPOND TO THESE ISSUES HERE) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Is "political correctness" censorship by the left or exagerration/distortion from the right..or a media-created label? To what degree, if any, should the state have the right to restrict under what circumstances a woman can have an abortion? Is homosexuality "deviant"? Can blacks be "racist"? If so, is this understandable, allowable, destined to fade with time, or getting worse? Is AIDS a "gay" disease? Is the US actually doing enough (or too much?) to cure this disease? Would strict gun control help reduce violent crime? Does the NRA actually represent most gun-owners and hunters these days? Why does time seem to go by more qiickly the older a person gets? Am I really awake, or am I asleep and just dreaming that I am awake! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Please note that I do not want to take away from CurEvent, just make room here for actual discussion of current events, and funnel the more general stuff to a more open-ended forum. Everyone is welcome in /Reality....even Jesse! ;) the preceeding has been a paid advertisement for... RRR EEEEE A L IIIII TTTTT Y Y !! R R E A A L I T Y Y !! R R EEEEE A A L I T Y Y !! RRR E AAAAA L I T Y !! R R E A A L I T Y R R EEEEE A A LLLLL IIIII T Y !! Date: Monday, January 17, 1994 9:42am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Rand Msg#: 438780 To: Lythande *EXEMPT* Re: Kemp.tlk File: KEMP.TLK (Reply to #438062, Reply to #436690, Reply to #435877, R*) (1 reply) LY>BTW, I wish you'd tell me some more substantive things about Kemp - I'm LY>becomming interested.......what are his ideas, etc.? I have gotten some permission to U/L some of Kemp and the rest of the EA crew's past speeches and materials. EA's national board is being a little old-fashioned and I have to make a presentation to them to get final approval to convert everything to electronic form and make them available here, as well as act as a conduit for you to connect with Empower America directly and ask questions of Kemp, Bill Bennett, Jeane Kirkpatrick, Newt Gingrich, Vin Weber, and a whole bunch of others. I'll U/L a copy of Kemps address to the 1992 national convention here just as a starter, and 'cause I happen to have it handy. So bear with me while I get all of this garbage nailed down with the exec board and hopefully I'll be a little more helpful. In this limbo stage, I'm trying to say as little as possible in case I make a mistake. I don't want to be speaking for them and give erroneous information. If they turn me down, I'll give you what I think they stand for. But I'd rather give you information from the horse's mouth, if I can. -Rand Date: Tuesday, January 18, 1994 10:35pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 439366 To: Mindless *EXEMPT* Re: Solar Power (1 reply) l'm not sure if you were the one interested in this - but: WASHINGTON--A joint government-industry effort has produced a new type of energy gathering material that could halve the cost of electrifying homes by solar power, the Energy Dept said today. The thin film--which experts said has reached a breakthrough in efficiency that makes it competitive in the marketplace--can look like conventional shingles to replace large, unsightly solar panels on homes and can be used in glass panels in commercial buildings, the department said. The technology resulted from a 3-year, $6.26-million project of the government and United Solar Systems Corp, a US company that is a joint effort of Canon Inc, the business machines and camera manufacturer, and Energy Conversion Devices of Troy, Mich. The project produced a solar energy-gathering film, called thin-film photovoltaic technology, that is 100 times thinner than the conventional wafered silicon solar technology now used for street lights, calculators and other products. Photovoltaics is the direct conversion of sunlight to electricity using solar panels. The thin film set a record in solar efficiency, with a 10 % stable conversion rate, which Energy Dept experts said greatly broadens the product's uses. Also, because the film is so thin, it uses much less material, which cuts costs, they said. The film can be spread on large sheets of low-cost material such as glass or stainless steel. It is the mass production aspect and the low cost that help make the product more competitive with conventional electricity, Jim Rannels of the Energy Dept, said. The department touted the new material as a way to boost use of solar energy to cut emissions of greenhouse gases, such as carbon dioxide, which scientists fear will heat up the Earth's climate. "This project is an early example--a foundation stone, if you will--of what the Climate Change Action Plan can do," Assistant Energy Secretary Christine Ervin said. "At the same time, we will help create high-skill, high-wage jobs and increase America's share of the growing world market for environmental technologies." The solar panels will be manufactured starting next year at a new plant in Newport News, Va. Ervin said the thin film solar panels can be made into roofing shingles that could supply all daytime electric power needs of a southern-facing house. Currently, costs for electricity from conventional photovoltaics are 25-50 cents per kilowatt hour, but the new technology should cut those costs to 16 cents, and eventually to 12 cents, the Energy Dept said. The department said the technology gives US companies a chance to reclaim marketshare for photovoltaic products, and could create spinoffs for entirely new electronic industry of photocopiers, fax machines, flat-panel displays and other products. Rannels said the technology offers the prospect of localized power production, instead of centralized production, which creates problems of distribution and has the potential for massive outages. Eventually, he said, it "provides us with an opportunity to bring power to parts of the world that have never seen power before." (From Reuters) Date: Friday, January 21, 1994 9:00pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Dna Msg#: 440167 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: AIDS Numbers (1 reply) [A AIDS Snapshot (as of 9/30/93, last quarter stati[Aics available) A Total 339,250 Adults 334,344 A Child (<13) 4,906 Adult Male 293,642 (88%) Adult Female 40,702 White 172,196 (51%) Black 106,585 (31%) Hispanic 56,818 (17%) Asian/Pacific 2,259 Native American 731 Unknown 661 Means of Exposure (Adult) Male Female Male-male sex 183,344 (55%) - IV drugs 60,835 (18%) 19,878 Male-male sex/IV drugs 21,142 ( 6%) - Coagulation disorder 2,890 73 Heterosexual 9,361 (2.8%) 14,997 (4.5%) Transfusion 5,984 2,338 Risk not identified 12,474 (3.7%) 3,366 (1.0%) Source: Centers for Disease Control, via American Medical News. Date: Tuesday, February 1, 1994 6:32pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Dna Msg#: 443844 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: ILCI.txt Index of Leading Cultural Indicators File: ILCI.TXT Reposting and summary. I'm doing this by request, so a single article can be EXEMPTed. These are as posted with two exceptions: One, the numbers have been moved in front of the category, instead of between category and title, and all tabs have been replaced with spaces so as to keep the columns straighter. DNA. Ooops, file larger than message buffer, therefore truncated...OK, I'm deleting the message and posting this as a file attachment. Date: Thursday, February 17, 1994 10:18am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Rand Msg#: 450983 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: From Wired Magazine... (Copy by Lythande) (4 replies) I'm reprinting this from the Feb. issue of Wired magazine. I'm typing it verbatim - so if you don't like it, don't complain to me. I just thought some people here would be interested: "Support Apple: Apple is under attack for its policy supporting gay rights in the workplace. Thanks to the hate-mongering but organized religious right, Apple's anti-gay mail outnumbers supporting mail 500 to 1. Change the odds: email Keith Sullivan, Human Resources Director, at sullivan6@applelink.apple.com" I also thought this was kinda relevant: "Jargon Watch" "Holy wars - Perpetual BBS discussions that never die, the arguments never change, and no one's opinions ever budge one iota. Holy wars are fought over abortion, gun control, Mac versus IBM, Windows versus DOS, and how much nudity to allow in the image areas of online services." -Rand Date: Monday, March 14, 1994 12:26am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Rand Msg#: 458116 To: Lythande *EXEMPT* Re: A massacre File: 458116.ATT (Reply to #457134, Reply to #457070, Reply to #451812, R*) (1 reply) LY>Well, now I think ou might be right. But, when I wrote that it sure LY>looked like war. What did you think immediately after it happened? LY>How long is the article? If it's short enough, could you u/l it? Even immediately after it happened, I expected what I posted. The article isn't too long. I'll U/L it... -Rand Date: Monday, April 11, 1994 6:59pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Magnum44 Msg#: 467833 To: Mindless *EXEMPT* Re: Stern (Reply to #463607) (1 reply) On 04-09-94 Mindless wrote to Magnum44... M > true... the article was only talking about strategic nukes... people M > like to forget all the tactical stuff... M > M > tell me, did the khazaks ever give up their nukes? M > mindless. Some people didnt forget..belive it or not, some people didnt know the Russians HAD stuff like that, other that the ICBMS, IRBMS, and the small artillery warheads...Amazing..The press? They have to goto experts to learn that, and they dont feel its an "important" part of the story... As far as i know, the reports on "negotiations" with the republics on thier stockpiles of weapons still go on...I THINK they might be able to get 98% of it back from the smaller countries, with only the Ukraine & Georgia being the hold outs...I have leanerd that large stockpiles of convention materials from equip ment parks in the smaller republices have been drained, and im talking 1st line stuff, t-72/80's BM-21 rockets, S-S rockets, etc...I also been hearing reports (uncomfirmed as of know) that the SPETSNAZ have be given a mission over the last few years to "hunt" for and destroy as much of the weaponry, its support equipment as possible, so as to make its use less likely or altogether impossible...If thats true, its a smart move, but dangerous as hell. --- * OFFLINE 1.54 * Unable to locate Coffee -- Operator Halted! Date: Thursday, April 21, 1994 9:56pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Sandman-93 Msg#: 470932 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: ppsychbable...poem (Copy by Lythande) (3 replies) PSYCHO BABBLE Watching TV thinking; Oxymoron in motion. Spinning through my living room, Dysfunctional family in discussion. Excuses for killing her on... Post-Partem Depression (Or daddy didn't hug her enough). Lies for crimes, they walk free. Psychology's become a defense lawyer; Everyone's got a disorder. (If not, hold on, we'll invent one...) No one is responsible! (O.K., so you killed everyone at the carnival Because when you were twelve you didn't win a goldfish In one of those ping-pong ball games...) Responsibility's a thing of te past. (Oh good, the Jury bought it? Here's my bill...) Date: Sunday, April 24, 1994 9:44am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 471761 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Equal rights for the handicapped (6 replies) For those of you who have been too busy with trivia, like Nixon's death, the slaughter in Bosnia, and Howard Stern's nomination by the Libertarians, there was this little item: A nightclub in Los Angeles (where else) was closed because its main act was shut down. It seems that their main attraction was a shower where nude female dancers showered in public while watched by patrons. The city determined that the shower did not have wheelchair access, thereby denying employment to handicapped female dancers, and shut the act down. (sigh) I must have missed something here. Date: Friday, June 24, 1994 11:29am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Steve Flur Msg#: 490916 To: Jesse *EXEMPT* Re: Radical publications? (Reply to #490910, Reply to #490901, Reply to #490896, R*) (1 reply) NAMBLA has been expelled from the International Lesbian and Gay Association(ILGA) and banned from all participation in official Gay Games and Stonewall 25. As the saying goes, "Actions speak louder than words". Which part of these actions do you not understand? Date: Wednesday, July 27, 1994 12:25am Forum: CurrentEvents From: La Gringa Msg#: 502637 To: 2380 *EXEMPT* Re: Punishment fit the Crime? (Reply to #502505, Reply to #502345, Reply to #502326, R*) (4 replies) Huh? Gay rights = human rights? Well if you have been listening that is exactly what we have been fighting for. If we had those same rights there would be no need for us to take to the streets. Since we dont have these inalienable rights, we fight for them. You are not going to give them to us...since you said there is soemthing wrong with homosexuals... While it makes no never mind to you, I thinkyou do see it as a flaw. I see it as normal, to me you are abnormal. The difference is I accept you as you are. I see you as part of the fabric of life. No better, no worse...just a part. All through the ages there has been homosexuality....it's nothing new. In your eyse you were created for procreation...how sad, and how limiting to live your whole life to procreate. How many children do you have..must be around 20 or more. Part of the problem in this world is the act of procreation..anyone can do it...but it takes a whole lot more to be a parent. In case you havent noticed....being able to make a baby is not all that big a deal. Since you think it is...then fine for you. I hope you have many children, but be a good parent cause one in 10 is gay and by your standards of heterosexuality for procreative purposes....you might have 30 kids, and thus 3 gay ones. So just in case, I advise you to learn tolerance and acceptance. Date: Friday, July 29, 1994 9:23pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: La Gringa Msg#: 503446 To: Jesse *EXEMPT* Re: I am as I am (Reply to #503040, Reply to #502861, Reply to #502736) (3 replies) Whoa....who is trying to enforce their life style on your children? I am curious about that. At the Gay Pride MArch I met the man who filed in Hawaii and who was part of the lawsuit, it was til goig on then. I have his number and I will call him. When did you hear this? I saw him end of June. I dont enforce my values on you. I am as I am, and thank god for the others that were that made a history for me. If I had neve known there was a place for me, role models...a safe place for me to come out...I would have died a thousand times. My soul would have ached for what it felt but never knew. This is what the community is for. Not to convert but to make a place for those that are. People lose entire families when they come out, and we as a community then embrace that hurting person. Not everyone, but in places where you meet your friends, and make choice families. Life is not easy when you are treated like dirt, when you lose your family, and when you feel alone. I think sometimes Jesse being heterosexual you might take some of the heterosexual benefuts for granteds since you have never had to lose any of them. I am not into recruiting children, and I dont know anybody that is except pedophiles, and they are 90% heterosexual. If not more than 90%, they want to take and hurt children. Homsexuals have to go through a process Jesse of realizing why they feel different, why they feel alone inside, why dating a member of the opposite gendr is not stimulating, why oh why oh why. The self torture and isolation is undenialbly horrible enough. Then when one day it falls into palce,,instead of Bappiness...there is torment...will my friends like me and accept me, will my family accept me, where do I go what do I do. WHo am I....over an over until one day you find your palce. And Jesse the funny thing is iD all this questioning it is never the just figured out gay identity that ever once gets questioned..it is always the external stuff. Family, firends, religion, etc. As a nation we have oppressed so many, each at different intervals. Everyone different from striaght white ment have had to fight for their rights. I think if we made a list of what we both felt was important in our lives, our likes and dislikes, the list would be similar, very similar. For instance: Family is very important to me. Working at a job that has meaning like I do is very important to me. I love music Walking, dancing, vegetarian food. Mexiacan food, Japenese food. Being monogamous is very important to me. One day maybe having children, and being a very there very loving parent is very important to me, and IW ould never do it unless I was ready. Treating people with dignity means a lot to me. What about you? Also good arguements I like that too. Withoout the insults of course... Date: Thursday, August 4, 1994 1:18am Forum: CurrentEvents From: La Gringa Msg#: 504697 To: Steve Flur *EXEMPT* Re: GOOD GAY/BAD GAY (Reply to #504162) (3 replies) It is not the question of being good or bad. I think I can reason with people, and be reasonded with as well. I have tremendous respect for peoples experiences, and views. I can get quite angry as you have seen, but my lover is sitting here sayiong you communicate it in a very intelligent and conpassionate way. I think I invite conversation..which then lends itself to understanding. As we are a product of scoiety and our own experiences, so are they. We are all valuable, and have much to say, someitems it just needs to be heard. After that follows when the walls come down a bit...we all have much to learn from one another. Peace Steve... Date: Wednesday, January 20, 1993 4:25pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Lythande Msg#: 517708 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: If we all agreed in /Curevent....... (Copy by Lythande, Reply to #291823, Reply to #291576, R*) (8 replies) I was looking for the Living Wills Text in *EXEMPT* messages at the begining of this Forum and ran into this from January of 1993. Plus ca change, plus le meme chose! The last one from the original post was Quincy.....I think I'll add some more. Anyone who has some is welcome to post them, but without flames, please. ************************* Yup! Can you imagine if we all agreed? Jesse: Why, you're right, Lythande - I'll get rid of my shotguns and Doberman today! Lythande: Yes, Jesse, Affirmative Action is wrong and I'm going to write to that wonderful Gov. Cuomo and tell him so, right after I join the Young Republicans Club. Sysop: Yes, Lythande, I just got my membership card in the ACLU and I can't wait to show it to Jesse! Kali: All of Jesse's posts will be *EXEMPT* from now on. In fact, I think I'll start listening to Howard Stern and Rush Limbaugh. Slope Hope: The human race is hopeless. Everyone buy a gun and start shooting the first person they see. mindless: The U.S. has got the most stable economy in the world and the media tells the truth and nothing but the truth. Quincy: All prisoners should be treated with kindness and compassion and get off with no consequences the first ten times. Enough! You get the idea....... After you, Alphonse....... Hmmmmm - wonder which one of you will kill me first! (or, one of the people I didn't mention 'cause I ran outta silliness?) ******** September, 1994 additions! Jesse: "I agree, Steve, I think that homosexuality is natural and normal and that gay marriage should be legal" (Oh boy, you still having me over to dinner, Jesse dear? Smooch) Steve Flur: "You're right, Magnum44 - Guns don't kill, people kill. You've convinced me, everyone, I'm going to vote Republican in the next Election - it's the only sensible thing to do." Lythande: "Why, my feeble female brain needed a superior male to point out to me that I'm nothing but a baby factory, 2380. And, thank you, Jesse for helping me buy my new gun." Sysop: "You're absolutely right Lythande, this country would be in the dark ages without the enlightened programs of the liberal Democrats." (Oh, boy - wonder how long my marriage will last...hehehehehehe) La Gringa: "Yes, Jesse, all these kids today need is discipline! I'm going to stop all this silly counselling and get a job as a prison guard where I can help punish criminals instead of coddling them. (Ho boy - how's that for the Twilight Zone?) 2380: "You know, Lythande, I was talking to a 16 year old who was pregnant and told her that she shouldn't ruin the rest of her life, but to go get an abortion instead. And, Matrix, I'm going to volunteer at a midnight basketball program." Editor: "You're right, Steve, the National Health reform was the best thing that could ever happen to this country. I just know the people in Washington will do an efficient job as usual." Magnum44: "Lythande, I want you to take all the money I get from selling my dangerous guns and give it to the Gun Control Lobby and give me a copy of the receipt to enclose in my letter resigning from the NRA" ******** Oy! I give up - I have a feeling I'd better find that Living Will text......I'm a gonna need it soon if you don't all have a sense of humor. Date: Tuesday, May 12, 1992 2:30pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Lockesley Msg#: 517730 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: LiveWill.txt File: LIVEWILL.TXT (Copy by Lythande, Reply to #193027, Reply to #192845,*) (3 replies) Oh what the hell, here it is Date: Wednesday, November 30, 1994 11:40pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Chelsea Msg#: 534807 To: Steve Flur *EXEMPT* Re: Oh happy day! (Reply to #534658, Reply to #534641, Reply to #534004, R*) (3 replies) SF>Firstly, could explain to me what you mean by "the homosexual SF>lifestyle"? Unless you accompanied me to the bedroom, what is there SF>about my everyday lifestyle that would distinguish it from your everyday SF>lifestyle? Secondly, what does alcoholism or any other addiction have to SF>do with sexual orientation? If you believe that sexual orientation is a SF>choice, when, where, how, and why did you choose yours? You're adapting an unsubstantiated argumentative and defensive tone when I've specifically said I make no value judgments about people and, yes, what is sometimes their choice of lifestyle. Why engage in semantics involving a word as "benign" as "lifestyle" when the entire issue of homosexuality is far more serious? My intent was not to attribute an entire lifestyle around one's choice to be homosexual. Excuse me, but I should've said "a person who chooses or is genetically inclined to live as a homosexual" rather than a person who lives a "homosexual lifestyle." Further, without getting into a full-blown argument about what differentiates a homosexual's lifestyle from that of a heterosexual, suffice it to say (again, IMHO - in my humble opinion) that the differences are apparent in many areas of our lives, and not simply in one's bedroom. In my sometimes abstract way of viewing life, it seems that the bedroom is the place where homosexual behavior is the *least* different from that of heterosexuals. Also, I wasn't equating homosexuality with alcoholism or drug addiction. I was simply stating that genetics don't always play a part in our predilections/habits/addictions/agenda/lifestyles, what have you. As for when, how and where I chose my sexual orientation, one day I discovered I had a thing for boys. I had close girl friends as a child and teenager. In fact, most of us can probably remember very close, and perhaps intimate, relationships with some of our childhood friends of the same gender. I'd imagine that at that time in my life I made a conscious choice that I preferred the exploration of boys to that of girls. Again, there was no condemnation of your sexual orientation in my previous message. If your choice/inclination is suitable for you, I have no problem with it, but I do have a problem with the assumption that all homosexuals are gentically disposed to be so. Chelsea Date: Sunday, December 4, 1994 9:05am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Chelsea Msg#: 535671 To: Jesse *EXEMPT* Re: Thoughts On Aids (4 replies) Jesse, I thought about you this morning. My mind wandered back to your posted message here about AIDS, and how you said that people with AIDS brought it upon themselves. I thought about your remarks as I heard about the death of 47 year old Elizabeth Glaser, AIDS activist, wife of actor Michael Paul Glaser. I thought about how she hemorrhaged during childbirth, and was given a blood transfusion to save her life, and that of her baby. I thought about how she buried her seven year old daughter who'd contracted AIDS thru her own breast milk while she had no knowledge of the fact that she, herself, carried the disease. I thought about all the incredible good that Elizabeth Glaser had done since discovering that she had innocently contracted AIDS even though she never engaged in homosexual activity, nor did any IV drugs. Then, I thought about your message again. Then . . . I thought about the callousness and utter insensitivity of your remark in light of this woman who passed away on Saturday from this deadly disease - contracted in a situation where none of her actions were irresponsible so that she could never have been accused of bringing it upon herself, and certainly not upon her own children. Then . . I thought about you again, Jesse, and I felt nothing but pity for you. Chelsea Date: Saturday, January 7, 1995 12:28pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 547054 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: HIV contagion (3 replies) I offer the following article (almost) without comment. As you know, I don't have a lot of faith in statistics like these, at least until they are confirmed, but the article is worth reading. ------- HIV contagion bared (News Wire Services) ---------------------------------------- DETROIT- People are extremely contagious in the first 60 days after getting the HIV virus -- the same period in which they can't possibly know they have it, scientists have discovered. So if you suspect your partner is having sex with others, you'd better use a condom, they warn. Tests can't detect the virus for four to six weeks -- when most of that risky, early phase has past. A University of Michigan study, being announced today, found that in the first 60 days after being infected, a person could transmit the AIDS virus to someone else in as many as three out of every 10 sexual encounters. After two months, the disease enters a long, less active phase, during which the chance of giving it to someone else drops to three in 1,000 sexual encounters, says John Jacquez, senior author of the study, which was published in the November issue of the Journal of Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndromes. When the disease progresses tofull-blown AIDS, a person's contagiousness rises again. Earlier AIDS research has been unclear about how infectious this early phase is, Jacquez says. "What we're saying is it's a lot higher than anyone thought." Some sexually active singles use AIDS testing as a way to reassure potential sexual partners that they are healthy. Yet, if they had acquired the virus recently enough, the test may be wrong. "This is the message for the person in the street: Don't rely on simple tests to measure if a person is contagiuos," says Carl Simon, professor of economics, public policy and mathematics at Michigan. -------------------------- Like I said, I think this is worth reading, and I don't want to comment on it too much, but I can't help wonder why there is a quote from a professor of economics at the end. Not sure what his relationship is to the whole business. Date: Saturday, January 28, 1995 6:36pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Walts Msg#: 555013 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Cyber-Newt File: 555013.ATT I bring you Cyber-Newt! REgards, WaltS Date: Wednesday, February 8, 1995 11:38am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Chelsea Msg#: 561583 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: rush.bmp File: RUSH.BMP (Fw by Lythande) Date: Saturday, February 25, 1995 12:51pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 566074 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: 12 step recovery program from GOP takeover (3 replies) I found this posting today on the "soc.feminism" newsgroup on the internet. It's from Nancy Dwyer fof OKlahoma NOW. She has devised a 9 step recovery program for recovery from the GOP takeover: P- Protest openly and loudly every time a right wing representative, talk show host or conservative tries to trample on our rights. R-Rheotric-Hold Operation Rescue accountable for their inflammatory speech, which results in violence at women's clinics. O-Organize-Demonstrate outside clinics, courthouses and the capitol. WE must becomre moer vocal and open in our protests. A-Agreesiveness. We can no longer remain passive as calls for welfare reform become veiled attacks on single women with children, the poor, the disabled and the elderly. C-Confront-We must confront state and national leaders through newspaper editorials, phone calls to their offices and press releases. T-Teach-We must teach the yung about the herstory of the women's movement. Too often young women and young men assume that all the rights have already been won. I-Involvement-Each of us must become more involved in grass roots elections. V-Vision-We must have a vision of total equality. We need a human rights amendment which prohibits discrimination against anyone based on race, sex or sexual preference. E-Elect. We must work tirelessly for candidates who are truly prochoice and prowomen-and not Republicans in Democratic drag. Any way, I thought this was pretty cool-so I wanted to pass it on! Date: Sunday, March 12, 1995 1:22pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Magnum44 Msg#: 572455 To: Vida *EXEMPT* Re: The great Society - a sham! (Reply to #571583) (6 replies) On 03-10-95 Vida wrote to Jesse... V > I don't think that Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are phonies-and I'm V > not V > a fan of either! And as for why the blacks haven't been able to build V > up the same kind of support system that the Asians have, I don't have V > all the answers. It's partly due to the fact that Asians have been V > able V > to accumulate wealth in their home countries. And frankly I guess not V > enough middle class or succesfful black people have plowed money back V > into their own respective communities. Let me see if i can answer this... Without a doubt, i am NO fan of AL & Jesse...(Well, maybe Jackson at ONE time but sure as hell not now!) These "gentlemen" are partly the reason why black Americans (thats right, not Afro, colored, or Africans, AMERICANS!) are not as community consisuous as we once were decades ago. Simply because the constant "i am a victim, you are a victim" mentality they keep spewing, ad nasume. Plus the constant reminder of HOW we got here, WHAT happemed to us, WHO did this to us, etc etc.... Well, as a AMERICAN, who just happens, by reason of birth & God to be BLACK, i happen to be tired of the freakin excuses! Im tiered of hearing i should FEAR my fellow Americans who happen to be white, when i gotta worry about getting killed by my own! I cant wear some things becuase some dork MIGHT try to rob me, yet i have to remember how oppressed my great great granddady was when he was taken off some slave ship. Let me set the record straight...What happend 400 years ago, was in itself, unexcuseable...It shouldnt have happened, thousands of blacks died in fetid condidtions, treated like chattel, or less. And lived lives that would have been unthinkable to anyone. BUT, that was 400 years ago, i cannot change the past anymore i can change the moon's position in the stars. I was born a free man, protected by the law of the land. I work, pay taxes, and am willing to defend this country, against all enemies, foriegn and domestic. I have no idea of what it would have been like to live during such a time, so why should i complain? This is NOT happening now, and thats the important thing.... To have self pity all the time is NOT normal, or even healthy...If we are to progress as a people, and country, we GOT to move on...MLK, Malcome X, these men would agree, the time to look for spokespeople for us is past. MOVE ON! We have now, more rights than our fathers & mothers, who had more than THEIR parents...What are we waiting for??? --- * OFFLINE 1.56 Date: Saturday, March 18, 1995 9:27pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 575006 To: Vida *EXEMPT* Re: Coommunism (Reply to #574995, Reply to #574683, Reply to #573285, R*) (1 reply) VI>My dad was a Communist. Mom was not. But by the time I became aware of VI>things my father was no longer active in the party. That's why I VI>clarified things to say I was not a true red diaper baby. There was an VI>active Communist party in this country in the 30's,40's and early 50's. VI>The McCarthy witch hunts killed it. Q: What't the difference between the United States and Russia? A: The United States has a communist party. Date: Sunday, March 19, 1995 8:08am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 575252 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: New group to fight the right (1 reply) A new group is forming to fight the right. It's called the "Women's Leadership Network". It will be designed to use the internet to organize against the right. The group is open to women and sympathetic men who are appalled at the agenda of the far-right and are terrified that the far right might be able to elect the next President. Tehy plan on creating a web page on the World Wide Web dedicated to issues from a feminist prospective and they plan to publish a daily hotline to activists who can receive e-mail over the internet. To join up, send a message via e-mail to PolWoman@aol.com with the message "Interested". You should also tell them a little about yourself, what your interests are, etc. Date: Friday, January 20, 1995 4:22pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Marien Msg#: 575408 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Guns and Kids (Copy by Lythande) (4 replies) I got this outta some sik newspaper I found laying around on the train on the way home last night, written by some Jerry Kann, so aim all vicious replies to him, but this being /SikFux, you guys prolly even will delight in it. It goes: At long last, a majority of voters has stated unequivocally that the welfare state must be abandoned. The recent elections show that people have finally found the courage to say those nine million children supported by the AFDC: WE SHALL SUPPORT YOU NO LONGER! America now has a historic opportunity. Not only can we deal fairly and squarely with those mostly illegitimate offspring now on welfare, but once and for all we can take the single definitive action which we have put off for far too long: we can eliminate children altogether. I cannot imagine a single adult taxpayer who will fail to see the wisdom of such an initiative. One can hardly pick a newspaper today without immediately seeing yet another story of miscreant youth tormenting our society. Children selling drugs, children with guns, children suing the very mothers who bore them. Can any rational person delude himself any longer that children are not the source of all our misery? A certain English writer of the early 18th century, I am told, once made a similar proposal. He recommended using children as a source of protein, as a particular class of foodstuffs which could serve as a hedge against famine in Ireland. But of course, while hunger may have existed in those benighted times, happily it does not exist in modern America. (What's more, I do not relish the idea of ingesting meat contamined with sundry derivatives of cocaine and cannabis, thank you very much.) However, we do indeed seem to have a very dire problem with the suppression of aggressive instincts. This problem, I submit, could be solved by the intelligent use of the vast surplus of children in our country. In our stressful world of high-pressure jobs and skyrocketing taxes, we naturally feel a huge need to vent our feelings of rage and frustration. At what better target could we vent them than at our children? In rural and suburban areas, large open pens could be set up to corral immense herds of children. A wide variety of firearms could be made available to adults for the indiscriminate shooting of the children contained in the pen. In this way, one might well clear the mind of those violent impulses which continually distract us. Call it a strategy for coping, and for achieving some small measure of serenity. In the cities, where open space is less plentiful, school gymnasiums could be used as mass holding cells (since, after all, such facilities will no longer be needed for their present function). The youngsters gathered there could be dispatched en masse or one at a time. They could be shot, stabbed, or clubbed to death as per the tastes of persons participating in the program. My hunch is that more people will prefer shooting. So much the better. We can confiscate the little hoodlums' guns, thereby pacifying crime-ridden neighborhoods, then turn those same weapons on the offenders themselves. We would finally have guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens. Some well-favored communities might even be able to afford to stock forest and open fields with especially athletic children who would be hunted like wild game. Those who do care to cook and eat their kill need not be prevented from doing so. But a more sensible method, it seems to me, would be to collect the carcasses, mash them, and use the resulting dried material as fuel, providing that the introduction of such a product onto the market did not unduly disrupt the prices of oil and natural gas. I fervently support Congressman Gingrich in his efforts to rid our country of the pestilence of federal welfare programs. But I implore the Speaker to push on to the logical conclussion toward which his argument tends. We must not fritter away this opportunity. And we need not fear the reproaches of the faint-hearted and the sentimental. We have shared our bounty with the undeserving for far too long. Date: Tuesday, March 21, 1995 1:35pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 577336 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Online "Decency Act" File: 577336.ATT (Fw by Lythande) (2 replies) The following is the first few paragraphs of the attached file. For those interested in the rest, you will have to download or read it separately, its too long for a post. --------------------------- From mech@eff.orgTue Mar 21 13:27:30 1995 Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 10:41:20 -0500 From: Stanton McCandlish Subject: eff_s314_hr1004.statement ALERT: S314 Online "Decency Act" Threatens All Online Providers --------------------------------------------------------------- Feb. 10, 1995 EFF is working with the Electronic Messaging Association and others to oppose the Exon bill, S314, the Communications Decency Act of 1995. We believe policy makers should take into account the ability of those using the net to avoid materials they find offensive. There will likely be increased use of labels and headers to help people avoid unwanted materials and guide their childrens' use of the net in the future. Meanwhile, it is simply a bad idea to make it a crime to "transmit" offensive material, especially when the "transmitter" is passive and not monitoring the content of "transmission". This bill would perpetrate the online equivalent of making anyone who builds a street liable for the fact that you can go to the red light district on it. This bill if passed into law will gravely chill the free flow of information online and inappropriately criminalize sysops and sysadmins for wrongdoing over which they have no control. It is clear from recent discussions with Sen. Exon and his staff that the sponsors of the bill were apparently unaware that the bill, as written, criminalizes essentially everyone involved in networking with the sole exception of govt.-decreed common carriers like telephone companies. The possibility of a re-write was being considered as of Feb. 8. Contact: David Johnson, Sr. Policy Fellow, djohnson@eff.org, +1 202 861 7700 Date: Friday, March 31, 1995 10:49am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 579430 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Affirmative action 1/3 (1 reply) I found this interesting and better balanced than most articles. Uploaded without further comment. ---------------------- Part 1 of 3 --------------------- Has the time come to abolish affirmative action? Seattle's KOMO Town Meeting framed the question as one of whether affirmative action was a matter of preferential treatment or simply a tool to achieve achieve equality. But in truth it's a bit of both. Many such as Senator Bill Bradley still persist in the idealistic notion that affirmative action isn't about preferences. But how can this be if the objection is to a law that merely proposes to ban the same preferences that supposedly don't exist? On the other hand, if you exclude people by merit when one group has overwhelming advantages based on experience, education, standardized tests and grades, you're still going to have nearly the same effect as excluding by race. Merit is a Catch-22 where in order to get a good job, you have to have experience, but to get experience, you need a good job. President Johnson's original executive order 11246 directed government to act affirmatively to hire "without regard to race", yet has evolved into a system that increasingly hires without regard to qualifications, if we can call test scores and experience valid qualifications. The assumption was that you could meet goals without favoring people, but the one conclusion people seem to agree on from the Bell Curve IQ controversy is that whatever ability is, it's not distributed as equally as we'd like to believe. Economist Thomas Sowell amply demonstrates in "Race and Culture" that statistical disparity is the normal state of affairs across the planet, and that mathematical parity is only achieved by artificial racial preferences or quotas. California's speaker Willie Brown claims there isn't a single documented case of discrimination against Whites. Yet the very Supreme Court cases that have upheld affirmative action since the Bakke case of 1978 have all found that affirmative action is both discrimination, and legal. The "catch" is that the justices decided that Congress was only kidding when they wrote a clause that said "cannot discriminate" in the 1964 Civil Rights Act. Hubert Humphrey promised to eat the bill if it ever lead to preferences, but the justices decided that desegregation, not color-blindness was the real intent. The law as it is interpreted today allows the favoring of disadvantaged groups as long as it's not a quota. Present discrimination isn't even neccesary as a justification, but if it is found, even quotas are legal. It's not quite a blank check, but nobody really knows where the boundary lies between legal and illegal discrimination. The so-called affirmative action "bans" would merely cut off the creative interpretation of "discrimination" added by creative Supreme Court justices, and restore the original color-blind intent of the law. In today's New Speak, Martin Luther King's color-blind vision of "judging not by the color of one's skin" has become the moral equivalent of racism. Preference has become the standard of equality. A 15% bidding preference for minority contractors is "evening out the playing field". Opponents of a law proposed by Scott Smith of Washington State called it a "economic lynching" and "white supremacist". It would ban equal opportunity and bar people from jobs on the basis of their race, while an Asian advocate claimed that it was "affirmative action for whites". Some openly state that color-blindness favors whites with disparate impact on minorities. Another woman ironically claims that banning preferences "only proves white men are unwilling to compete on the basis of merit". Color and gender have become qualifications in their own right as statements of "without regard to race" have given away to "seeking diverse representation." While the Supreme Court has not yet made preferences compulsory, colleges and businesses are starting to make it the standard as "diversity" becomes Job Number One. The Institute for Justice in DC is helping Stanley Dea, an Asian man, sue his employer who fired him for refusing to favor a minority over a better qualified white candidate. San Francisco's elite Lowell high school has been threatened with a lawsuit by the NAACP because uniform test standards would admit "too many" Date: Friday, March 31, 1995 10:49am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 579431 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Affirmative actions - 2/3 --------------- Part 2 of 3 ----------------------- Chinese, while Asian activist leaders have chosen to uphold the quotas rather than joining parents in fighting them. Dean Wallace Loh of the University of Washington's Law School dismisses the importance of LSAT scores, and says that it would be immoral to be make test scores a dominating factor. But White applicants who fall far below the top 7 percent are summarily rejected. Minorities in the top 25 percent who would be only average at the University of Puget Sound are nearly assured admission to any law school of their choice, even though this puts them in the bottom 1 percent of admitted White students at most top colleges. Race is not just one factor, but the decisive factor for most minorities, in violation of the spirit of Bakke where race was allowed to be only one of many factors. Law schools at the University of Texas and the University of California at Berkeley have been found guilty of using entirely separate standards between races even under existing laws. Minority students at the most selective undergraduate colleges like MIT or Cal Berkeley may be in the top 10 or 15 percent of all high school students nationwide. But when White and Asian averages in the top 5 or 1 percent, minorities are simply mismatched at the bottom 10 percent compared to other admitted students. While admission rates show that it is twice as easy for minorities to be admitted into the most selective colleges, they also drop out rates at double the rate of Whites and Asians. Clinton has stated repeatedly that he opposes quotas, but in a nation where white men hold 95% of top management positions, the Clinton administration restricted his cabinet to a quota of no more than 35% White men. His personel office has bragged of hiring exactly 3% Asians at every level of his administration, which bear no resemblence to the available labor pool, but population quotas instead. If, as a society, we feel good about giving breaks to the disabled and veterans, affirmative action should be defensible even if it isn't color-blind. But if after this dialog, we decide we really want to engage in this racial chivalry, then we should "legalize" affirmative action by stating on paper exactly what we mean instead of letting judges tell us that "non-discrimination" on paper really means "racial preference" in practice. You shouldn't have to be constitutional scholar to know that affirmative action allows racial preferences, and that discrimination against Americans of European descent has been legal since 1978. I propose a 3 step plan to reform affirmative action. First, race and gender preferences should be made legal only when it is disclosed who is preferred, and by how much. Most colleges are guilty of violating truth in advertising laws when they claim to admit without regard to race or gender, and won't release admission rates or test scores that show who is getting preferences. Second, we've got to put limits on results. People seem to accept without justification that parity is the purpose of affirmative action, but it's practically an invitation to quotas and preferences if t equal numbers come without equal qualifications. If we split the difference between the two extremes of merit-only under-representation and quotas, it would be a better reflection of the principle of a compromise between the goals of diversity and color- blindness. The only legal way to achieve parity should be to have equal qualifications, and it should be permissible to exceed parity if you have better qualifications. We must discard the common rhetoric that there is no conflict between diversity and excellence. The law of equal proportions explains racial equity about as well as the flat earth theory explains geography, and it must be repealed. We must recognize that not all groups have equal education, experience, or test scores, and that a free society cannot simply dictate that they be equal. Affirmative action should never put minorities ahead at the finish line. Blacks are 7 percent of the UW law school in a state that is only 3 percent Black, while Whites are the only race that is under-represented. No city official thought there was anything wrong when San Jose hired only Date: Friday, March 31, 1995 10:51am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 579432 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Affirmative action - 3/3 one white male firefighter out of 22 in 1992, and nearby Union City hired none. Even the Clinton administration is prosecuting a college which hired only minorities as janitorial staff when Supreme Court precedents have barred the total exclusion of White men. There should not be caps on overachieving minorities, as long under-represented groups are brought up towards average. When Asians and Jews together are approaching half of Ivy League or Berkeley students, even average Protestant Whites may be under-represented. At UC Berkeley, Blacks and Hispanics are protected at near parity, but Whites are not, with the result that Whites are the least represented at only half their high school graduate proportions. Third, affirmative action can be made color-blind by using under-represention, rather than race as the criterion. Blacks are over-represented in Los Angeles county jobs, but not among computer scientists. Chinese are not underrepresented in colleges, but Laotians may be. The true test of color blindness would be the willingness of a Black firefighter to cede his promotion to to a Cambodian or El Salvadoran with less experience and lower test scores in the name of diversity. Substituting class for race won't fix the problems of under- representation. UC Berkeley has found that they've had to favor rich Blacks with lower test scores over poor Asians because there are simply too many poor Asians with outstanding test scores. Still, the only way to resolve disputes about who is Black or Latino and who is not would be to have the federal government assign a race to all births and immigrants, a procedure which was ironically scrapped by by South Africa. Removing affirmative action may considered suicidal for elected officials, who have yet to pass such a bill. But as the California Civil Rights Initiative in California, it is overwhelmingly favored by whites and somewhat less so by Asians and Hispanics. Support only increased upon reading of the actual text of the law, which prohibits discrimination against Blacks as well as Whites.. Even among Blacks, opposition is evenly split when affirmative action is phrased as racial preferences. If legislators do not act now to reform affirmative action, the voters will likely bypass them by initiative to bans all preferences, whether justified or not. The passage of ban on preferences would have dramatic effects on college admissions and goverment hiring. Less than 1% of the people who score high enough to match the average test scores in the top law or engineering colleges are Black. Yet there was no outrage or controversy when the California Institute of Technology evidently quietly abandoned a policy of racial preferences and reduced Black admissions from 4 to 2 percent. There are no magic numbers at which racism will disappear. Racial tensions only got hotter at Berkeley as minorities surpassed parity in 1988, and whites have been reduced to less than one-third of entering freshmen. No one should be denied fair consideration on the basis of his or her gender or race. Diversity is important, but we must go further and implement "Fairness in Diversity" to insure that justice for minorities is truly justice for all. +- Views do not reflect employer, publisher, gender or species ------+ |Arthur Hu 206-882-8080 x23516 883-1122 eve Asian Week columnist | |arthurhu@aol.com "Fairness in Diversity" No one should be excluded | |15315 NE 65th St Redmond WA 98052 because of race or gender | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ Date: Saturday, April 8, 1995 10:35am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 581152 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Middle east peace e mail list There is a new e mail list on internet e mail to discuss peace in the middle east. The list is called Salaam-v-shalom. Salaam-v-shalom is a moderated list. The list moderators ask that present and future possibilities for peace be discussed without a focus on the past. It is hoped that it will help develope peace in the middle east. Date: Tuesday, June 20, 1995 10:36pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 607838 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: 2 minute activist (2 replies) As a special community service to the online community, Donald Schwartz is offering a Custom Peace Home Page. He writes: "You send me a message about your peace, ecological or social justice related interests and I will send back either a Customized Home Page or Plain Text Bibliography of Internet Sources. To subscribe to this service send a message via internet mail to DONALDS320@AOL.Com. In the body of the message type: (1) Your name, (2) Your affiliation, if any; (3) where you saw this message; (4) preference for home page or plain text bib; (5) List of specific peace, ecological or social justice interests. Donald Schwartz will try to respond within 24 hours, although he will be away from June 24th thru June 27th. Additionally, there is a list called wminuteAcivist which gives usually one action that can be donw weekly that is simple, easy to do, yet effective. Its purpose is to help busy people get involved in the political process, without being over-whelemed by it. To subscribe to this list, or to ask submission criteria send a message to the list moderator Donovan Rittenbach, via internet e mail at zen7@aol.com. Date: Friday, June 23, 1995 5:02am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 608710 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Foster Nomination I can not believe the ineptitude of President Clinton in (1) allowing himself to be manipulated into firing Joyce Elders as surgeon general in the first place (2) not being able to have enough clout to push his second choice as surgeon general in the second place. I really fear for the future of abortion rights in general in this country. With our right wing friends it begins to look every day that fascism is just around the corner. I am reprinting here the latest PolyWoman Hotline for all those who don't get it on e mail. Subject: Foster Nomination Date: 95-06-22 16:55:08 EDT From: internet-democrats-request@webcom.com To: internet-democrats@webcom.com INTERNET DEMOCRAT Volume 1 Number 9b ******************************************************************** WILL DOLE, GRAMM DERAIL FOSTER NOMINATION, IN COMPETITION TO SEE WHO'S THE MOST RIGHT-WING? The Senate failed today to cut off a filibuster against President Clinton's nomination of Henry Foster to be U.S. surgeon general, falling three votes short of the 60 required. Eleven Republicans joined all 46 Democrats in the 57-43 vote to end the filibuster led by Republican Phil Gramm of Texas. ``This is about presidential politics, pure and simple,'' said. Sen Wendell Ford, D-Ky. Senate Democratic Leader Tom Daschle said the nomination is ``hostage to a narrow constituency in the Republican Party party who hold a different view than Dr. Foster.'' Senators who voted to bottle up the nomination have done ``a disservice to democracy,'' President Clinton declared. ``A strong majority of 57 voted to give him a fair chance and a full vote, but a small minority are using this nomination to dictate a litmus test to the American people,'' the President said. White House spokesman Mike McCurry told reporters: ``What's becoming clear now is, nobody who has got any pro-choice sentiment will be acceptable to the Republican majority in Congress which has now been hijacked by the extremists and the anti-choice movement.''--Reuter News Wire. THREE GOP SENATORS MUST SWITCH VOTES Gramm and Senate Majority Leader Bob Dole, both candidates for the GOP Presidential nomination, oppose the nomination largely on the grounds that Dr. Foster has performed 39 abortions in his four-decade career as obstetrician-gynecologist. Gramm criticized Dole for bringing the nomination up at all. "I'm disappointed," he said. "I think the leader has the ability to prevent it from coming up." To salvage the Foster nomination from anti-choice extremists, Americans must urge at least three more Republicans to urge re-consideration of the vote and to cut off the filibuster. The five crucial votes are likely to come from these senators: James Jeffords of Vermont, Alan Simpson of Wyoming, Mark Hatfield of Oregon, Olympia Snowe of Maine and Ben Nighthorse Campbell of Colorado. Jeffords and Campbell are on record as supporting Foster's confirmation. If your state has a Republican senator, please call or fax his office and urge him to support Dr. Foster's nomination. A list of Senators phone numbers and fax numbers is below. Note that Senator Bill Frist, R-Tennessee, one of the most conservative of the new freshmen senators, strongly supports Dr. Foster because he has known him for years as a very caring and competent leader in his state. WELL-QUALIFIED FOR THE JOB Dr. Foster has spent 38 years in medicine and he has the leadership, knowledge, and compassion to be the public health leader for all Americans. * Medical school dean and published author. * Former director of the "HIGH RISK YOUNG PEOPLE'S PROGRAM" -- The program trained doctors and expanded services to young people in areas in high risk of voilence, pregnancy, and drug and alcohol abuse. * Founded the "I Have a Future" Program. The program's aim is to increase the self-esteeme and self-respect of young people in order to avoid the epidemic of teen pregnancy. The award-winning program stresses education, job opportunity, and personal responsibility. He has dedicated his life to improving the health of women and children in his care. He has delivered thousands of babies and trained hundreds of young doctors. In addition, he has worked hand-in- hand with people in underserved communities to solve their health problems. SAME STRATEGY AS LAST YEAR The Republicans are using the same strategy they used last year on President Clinton's crime bill, health care and campaign finance reform. They weren't sure they could win fair and square, so they subverted democracy with a filibuster. QUOTE OF THE WEEK "The only remaining question is whether Republicans who support a woman's constitutional right to choose will vote for their principles or pander to the antiabortion wing of their party by going along with this unconscionable filibuster"--Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (D-Mass.) ALERT FROM THE WOMEN'S POLITICAL NETWORK The Women's Political Network, a mailing list of 4,000 pro-choice activists on the Internet, has issued the following alert on the Foster nomination (To subscribe to their newsletter, send email to Polwoman@aol.com): 1. This is anti-abortion politics -- an all-out attack on a symbol of choice. It is a precursor of a wide range of anti-abortion legislative actions to come. 2. It is Republican presidential wannabes Dole and Gramm out to defeat a popular Clinton nominee and at the same pander to the Christian Coalition and other Radical Right groups which had made Foster's defeat a top priority. And there is Dole's substrategy of outmaneuvering and upstaging Sen. Phil Gramm, and denying Gramm the spotlight with his promised endless filibuster. 3. It is Republicans in general hoping to capture the White House in 1996. It is an opportunity to hand President Clinton a defeat. 4. It is a slap in the face of women and all pro-choice Republicans. PHONE, FAX NUMBERS and SOME E-MAIL ADDRESSES OF GOP SENATORS P ST Name and Address Phone & E-Mail Fax = == ======================== ============== ============== R AK Murkowski, Frank H. 1-202-224-6665 1-202-224-5301 R AK Stevens, Ted 1-202-224-3004 1-202-224-1044 R AL Shelby, Richard C. 1-202-224-5744 1-202-224-3416 R AZ Kyl, Jon 1-202-224-4521 1-202-224-2302 R AZ McCain, John 1-202-224-2235 1-202-228-2862 R CO Brown, Henry 1-202-224-5941 1-202-224-6471 senator_brown@brown.senate.gov R DE Roth Jr. William V. 1-202-224-2441 1-202-224-2805 R FL Mack, Connie 1-202-224-5274 1-202-224-8022 R GA Coverdell, Paul 1-202-224-3643 1-202-228-3783 senator_coverdell@coverdell.senate.gov R IA Grassley, Charles E. 1-202-224-3744 1-202-224-6020 R ID Craig, Larry E. 1-202-224-2752 1-202-224-2573 larry.craig@craig.senate.gov R ID Kempthorne, Dirk 1-202-224-6142 1-202-224-5893 dirk_kempthorne@kempthorne.senate.gov R IN Coats, Daniel R. 1-202-224-5623 1-202-224-8964 R IN Lugar, Richard G. 1-202-224-4814 1-202-224-7877 R KS Dole, Robert 1-202-224-6521 1-202-224-8952 R KY McConnell, Mitch 1-202-224-2541 1-202-224-2499 R MI Abraham, Spencer 1-202-224-4822 1-202-224-8834 R MN Grams, Rod 1-202-224-3244 1-202-224-9931 R MO Bond, Christopher S. 1-202-224-5721 1-202-224-8149 R MO Ashcroft, John 1-202-224-6154 1-202-224-7615 R MS Cochran, Thad 1-202-224-5054 1-202-224-3576 R MS Lott, Trent 1-202-224-6253 1-202-224-2262 R MT Burns, Conrad R. 1-202-224-2644 1-202-224-8594 R NC Faircloth, D. M. 1-202-224-3154 1-202-224-7406 R NC Helms, Jesse 1-202-224-6342 1-202-224-7588 R NH Gregg, Judd 1-202-224-3324 1-202-224-4952 R NH Smith, Robert 1-202-224-2841 1-202-224-1353 R NM Domenici, Pete V. 1-202-224-6621 1-202-224-7371 R NY D'Amato, Alfonse M. 1-202-224-6542 1-202-224-5871 R OH Dewine, Michael 1-202-224-2315 1-202-224-6519 senator_dewine@dewine.senate.gov R OK Inhofe, James 1-202-224-4721 R OK Nickles, Donald 1-202-224-5754 1-202-224-6008 R OR Hatfield, Mark O. 1-202-224-3753 1-202-224-0276 R PA Santorum, Rick 1-202-224-6324 1-202-228-4991 R SC Thurmond, Strom 1-202-224-5972 1-202-224-1300 R SD Pressler, Larry 1-202-224-5842 larry_pressler@pressler.senate.gov R TN Thompson, Fred 1-202-224-4944 1-202-228-3679 R TX Hutchison, Kay Bailey 1-202-224-5922 1-202-224-0776 senator@hutchison.senate.gov R TX Gramm, Phil 1-202-224-2934 1-202-228-2856 R UT Bennett, Robert 1-202-224-5444 1-202-224-6717 R UT Hatch, Orrin G. 1-202-224-5251 1-202-224-6331 R VA Warner, John W. 1-202-224-2023 1-202-224-6295 senator@warner.senate.gov R WY Thomas, Craig 1-202-224-6441 1-202-224-3230 THANKS TO POLWOMAN@aol.com, and to Anne M Glenzer and NARAL -- National Abortion and Reproductive Rights Action League for help in preparing this report. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- THE INTERNET DEMOCRAT is published weekly in Washington, DC and distributed to 5,000 Democrats and progressives around the world via the Internet. CO-PUBLISHERS: James Buie and Charles Gallie Thank you for receiving this newsletter! We distribute it free. DON'T BE A POLITICAL COUCH POTATO. Become a PARTICIPANT. Let's use this technology to build the Democratic Party from the grassroots up. Think globally, act locally. Your paid subscriptions of $5, $10, $25, $50, $100 or more tell us you value what we are doing. Send checks (and the email address of one online friend) to THE INTERNET DEMOCRAT, P.O. BOX 268, COLLEGE PARK, MD 20740. To make a secure electronic transaction using First Virtual, the Internet bank, send e-mail to apply@card.com. Once you have a First Virtual account number, send e-mail to IntrnetDem@AOL.com and tell us the amount of your purchase. TO SUBSCRIBE: Send e-mail to: internet-democrats-request@webcom.com. In the body of the message, type only the word subscribe. To cancel a subscription, send e-mail to: internet-democrats-request@webcom.com. In the body of the message, type only the word unsubscribe. ********************************************************************* THE INTERNET DEMOCRAT Helping To Build the Democratic Party for the 21st Century ********************************************************************* Date: Sunday, July 2, 1995 1:55am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kali Msg#: 611323 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: How to Keep Your Right to Free Speech (2 replies) [cross posted in FreeSpeech] Hi gang! After a long hiatus, I've returned, and I was thrilled to see the new Forum on After Hours devoted to First Amendment Rights... freedom of speech for the online community has become one of my biggest causes. For those of you who've joined since my last tenure on After Hours, My real name is Lori, and I work in the computer press. I used to write a column about online issues for a pair of magazines called COMPUTER BUYER'S GUIDE and LAPTOP BUYER'S GUIDE; I no longer work for those pubs, but I'm still out here spouting. The answer to this question--how to keep the rights you already have--is a simple one. VOTE. With your mouth, with letters, with faxes and phone calls, with your wallet... call the senators and representatives who oppose the Communications Decency Act and support them. Send letters. Organize petitions. Speak up, loud, often, and with as many others as you can manage. To quote the Constitution: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." This does not say, "Except for the Internet, or cyberspace." This does not say, "Unless we find the content of said communications immoral or repugnant." It is pretty well-defined with the words "Congress shall make NO law..." These are the rights Americans have fought for and died for for 219 years. These are the rights that all of our ancestors wanted for their children when they moved to this country. These rights are framed in the very foundations of this country. The government of this country is neither fair nor benevolent, (and hisotircally, has been neither of these things), as we've seen in their treatment of Native Americans, blacks, women, homosexuals, and just about anyone who is not a white Anglo-Saxon Protestant male. Neither are they stupid. Those in power know that public sentiment keeps them there. An apathetic populace gets what it deserves. Don't be apathetic. It's only fitting that this fourth of July weekend should be a good time to speak up. Send telegrams, faxes, letters. Make phone calls. Speak up. Say it LOUD! ------+ Kali +------ Date: Tuesday, July 4, 1995 7:48am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 611882 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Wham action alert (2 replies) More goodies from the net that I am passing on to all concerned. From owner-wham@list.cren.net Mon Jul 3 22:05 EDT 1995 Reply-To: wham@list.cren.net Sender: owner-wham@list.cren.net From: Neil Demause To: "WHAM! Alert - feminist bulletin" Subject: WHAM! Alert July 1995 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WHAM! ALERT * v 1 no 7 * July 1995 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Welcome to the unofficial monthly electronic info-mailing from NYC's Women's Health Action & Mobilization. WHAM! is a direct action group committed to demanding, securing and defending absolute reproductive freedom and quality health care for *all* women. This mailing is made up of compiled information and suggestions for actions *you* can take. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WHAM! ALERT is compiled and edited by Neil deMause and Dolly Meieran. This material is provided as an informational service and does not necessarily represent the opinion of WHAM! as a whole. Over 80% of women in the U.S. are not online. Please print out copies of WHAM! Alert and pass it along to as many people as you can. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >CONGRESSIONAL MONTH FROM HELL< The last month was not a good one in Congress, as the anti-woman agenda was in full swing. Most notable was the successful filibuster, led by presidential hopeful Phil Gramm, of the nomination of Surgeon General candidate Henry Foster. (Gramm accused Foster, who has performed a handful of abortions in his career, of having "radical views" on abortion -- "radical" apparently meaning that he thinks it should remain legal.) With anyone who has ever breathed the word "abortion" apparently now blacklisted from eligibility to be Surgeon General, President Clinton is now reportedly considering leaving the position unfilled, and appointing Foster to a similar position as head of a taskforce on teen pregnancy, which would not require Congressional approval. But though the media coverage focused on the Foster nomination, other nasty things were afoot in Congress last month as well. The House voted to restore the pre-Clinton Administration ban on abortions at military hospitals, and bills were introduced to: grant federal funds to hospitals that defy the requirement that OB/GYN residents be offered abortion training; outlaw the "D&X" abortion procedure; and repeal federal Medicaid coverage of abortions in cases of rape or incest. (Medicaid hasn't covered abortions for other women since the Hyde Amendment of 1977, though a few states provide funding themselves.) This last initiative is part of the Christian Coalition's recently unveiled "Contract With the American Family," as is another item on the Congressional agenda: the elimination of Title X, the federal family planning program. ***Call or write your representatives and senators (202-224-3121, U.S. Senate, Washington, DC 20510) and tell them what you think on all these subjects.*** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >PRA STILL UNDER DISCUSSION IN SENATE< Meanwhile, the Senate is still kicking around the various versions of the Personal Responsibility Act, which would decimate women and their families who receive public assistance. In the latest twist, several Republicans have reportedly taken to squabbling over the formula for proposed "block grants" that would replace AFDC entitlements; apparently cutting welfare to the bone is all well and good, but only until it starts to affect the money available for your home state. If nothing else, this is delaying the passage of any of the "welfare reform" plans -- and all are awful in varying degrees -- giving advocates for women's rights more time to mobilize opposition. ***That's right: Call your senators. Tell them that women on welfare need aid, not punishment. If you need more ammunition, WHAM!'s analysis of the PRA is available at http://www.echonyc.com/~wham/welfare.html.*** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >WELFARE WARRIORS CENTER NEEDS FUNDS< Welfare Warriors, the Milwaukee-based activists group of mothers in poverty (with chapters now in Albany, San Diego, and Suffolk County, N.Y.), has successfully raised $30,000 of the $45,000 needed to buy a building for their planned national Mothers Organizing Center. This would provide both organizing space and an office for Welfare Mothers Voice, their excellent national newspaper. ***Contributions of any size are welcomed: Welfare Warriors Organizing Center, 4504 N. 47th St., Milwaukee, WI 53218. Or call 414-444-0220 for more information.*** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >PHONY CLINIC IN THE SOUTH BRONX?< In mid-June, we received a copy of an article from The Wanderer, a Minnesota-based Catholic weekly, announcing that Chris Slattery, the local Operation Rescue leader who already runs a fake clinic in Manhattan, planned to open a similar facility across the street from Planned Parenthood's Hub clinic in the Bronx in July. Slattery claimed to have signed a lease on office space at the 149th St. site, and said that the Bronx Knights of Columbus had offered to rent nearby billboard space to advertise "South Bronx Pregnancy Services," as the phony clinic will be called. Fake clinics, or "crisis pregnancy centers" as they like to be called, represent one of the most deceptive and malicious tactics of the anti-abortion movement. Posing as health clinics, they have no medical staff and provide no medical services; instead, "counselors" specialize in harassing women not to choose abortion. (Often, this harassment begins before a woman even knows the results of her pregnancy test; they have also been known to call women or their parents at home after an appointment to continue the harassment.) There are an estimated 2,000 phony clinics nationwide that provide neither abortion nor birth control, nor referrals for such services; this is about 2-1/2 times the number of genuine clinics providing abortion services in the U.S. (For more info on fake clinics, see http://www.echonyc.com/~wham/fakeclinics.html.) Planned Parenthood's Hub clinic in the South Bronx is one of the best-regarded in New York, providing some of the only health services for one of the city's poorest communities. This, no doubt, is why they are being targeted by Slattery: He told The Wanderer, "We are trying to take back the South Bronx from Planned Parenthood, which has targeted the disadvantaged of the city by going where they live. Now we are trying to do the same thing." ***Plans are underway to expose South Bronx Pregnancy Services as a fake, and build community opposition to the facility. The next planning meeting will be held at Hostos Community College on 149th St. and Grand Concourse in mid-July. For more information, contact WHAM! (212-560-7177) or the Latina Roundtable on Health and Reproductive Rights (212-533-9055). For more information on how to fight phony clinics in your community, contact Leslie Sebastian at Planned Parenthood-San Diego (619-683-7526).*** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >PRO-CHOICE SHOPPING GUIDE< The National Abortion & Reproductive Rights Action League of New York State (NARAL New York) made available its Shopping for Choice Guide as of July 1st. The Guide details the giving patterns of American companies, and includes detailed profiles of prominent right-wing think tanks supported by corporate America. The Guide also includes an educational section that informs consumers about easy steps to take to shop pro-choice. ***TO ORDER: Send $6.50 check or money order to NARAL New York Foundation; 462 Broadway #540, New York, NY 10013. Please indicate that this is payment for the Shopping Guide. Questions or problems? E-mail yurlova@aol.com or call 212-343-0114.*** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >WHAM! GETS PROUD< June 18-25 was Gay and Lesbian Pride Week in New York City, and WHAM! took part to the fullest: at the opening day rally un Union Square, the Drag March on the 23rd (where we joined in chanting, "Go home! Get dressed! You spectators look a mess!" and "We're here! We're queer! We've come to kill the mayor!"), the Lesbian Avengers' Dyke March the following day (where women successfully took Fifth Avenue and many marched topless, despite police threats that none of that would be allowed this year), and the big march on the 25th, where we joined with ACT UP and the Church Ladies for Choice for the trek from midtown to Greenwich Village. Somewhere in there we also found time to distribute copies of a factsheet on women and AIDS, which is available by sending a self-addressed, stamped envelope to WHAM!, PO Box 733, NYC 10009. ------------------------------------------------------------ still adding information and links to the WHAM! Web page -- you can currently access our monthly events/actions calendar and pages relating to various specific women's health issues, as well as back issues of WHAM! Alert. (The WHAM! Alert archives are also available via gopher from gopher.echonyc.com.) The WHAM! URL, to remind you, is: http://www.echonyc.com/~wham/ Anyone with suggestions for additions or links to add to the WHAM! page should e-mail us at wham@listproc.net. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS JUST IN< In an obvious attempt to miss the WHAM! Alert deadline, legislators and courts alike ended June in a flurry of activity. Among the late-breaking items: * The Supreme Court declared unconstitutional a Congressional district devised to provide African-Americans with an electoral majority. According to New York Newsday, the fallout from this decision could affect half the African-Americans now in Congress; the article speculated the effect on Congressional Latinos would be somewhat less. (Though Nydia Velasquez, a strongly progressive and pro-woman representative from New York City, is considered vulnerable.) * New York's state assembly speaker, Sheldon Silver, killed a bitterly contested bill that would have forced women to submit to HIV testing of their newborns. His reasoning, however, was that he wanted to wait and see if a federal bill proposed by Rep. Gary Ackerman (D-NY) would supercede the state bill; defenders of reproductive rights and the right to medical privacy should keep an eye on this at the federal level. We'll catch you up on these and other late-breaking issues, and their ramifications, next month. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WHAM! ALERT is distributed *free* via the Internet; to subscribe, send e-mail to listproc@listproc.net with "SUBSCRIBE WHAM yourfullname" (without the quote marks, and using your real name, not e-mail address) in the BODY of the message (NOT the subject). To take yourself off this list, send an e-mail with "UNSUBSCRIBE WHAM" in the body of the message. WRITE TO US! Comments, submissions and announcements for WHAM! ALERT are welcomed. Send to: wham@listproc.net SEE OUR WEB PAGE: http://www.echonyc.com/~wham/ If you're in NYC, WHAM! meets the first and third Wednesday of every month at 7pm at 594 Broadway (just south of Houston St.), Room 700. Or write to: WHAM!, PO Box 733, NY, NY 10009. ------------------------------------------------- W H A M ! B E C A U S E W O M E N ' S H E A L T H I S P O L I T I C A L ------------------------------------------------- Date: Tuesday, July 18, 1995 1:14am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kali Msg#: 616856 To: 2380 *EXEMPT* Re: Wham action alert File: USCON.TXT (Reply to #616630, Reply to #615685, Reply to #614510, R*) (1 reply) 23>Time for a new copy. Its not in any of the amendments. So strike two 23>yourself. We were discussing the First Amendment, correct? HEre's the text: "Amendment 1 Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." There is also a complete and unedited version of the text of the Constitution, complete with Amendments, attaches as USCON.TXT. Sysop, please exempt this for future reference. Date: Sunday, August 20, 1995 8:07am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 626461 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Female genital mutilation (1 reply) Another post from the internet which I am passing along here. Subject: EGYPT: GENITAL MUTILATION (fwd) > Subject: EGYPT: GENITAL MUTILATION > > TITLE: EGYPT: GENITAL MUTILATION, GOVERNMENT STYLE > By Preeti Singh > > Cairo, May 19 (WFS) -- The camera hovered over the agonized face of > a girl. It was last September, during the United Nations > International Conference on Population and Development, and Cable > News Network was broadcasting the evening news. The girl on screen > was 10 years old. A Cairo barber was "circumcising" her. > > The image didn't look good for a country whose minister of > population, Maher Mahran, had just vowed at the conference to > outlaw the traditional practice of female genital mutilation. > > Although there are no official statistics, the Egyptian Non- > Governmental Society estimates nearly 92 percent of Egyptian women > are subject to the procedure. > > Female genital mutilation can range from clipping the tip of > the clitoris to infibulation, in which the outer parts of the > genitals are removed. Usually the event is celebrated with gifts of > money and new clothes. But many girls become ill with infections > following the operation and some die from blood loss or > complications. > > Responding to the newly critical light cast on the painful and > dangerous practice, the minister of health, Ali Abdel-Fatah, declared his ministry's commitment to a first-ever, nationwide > conference on the issue. The ministry also formed the Higher > Committee for Combating Female Circumcision, chaired by Abdel-Fatah > himself. > > It includes Sheikh Mohamed Sayed Tantawi, the Grand Mufti of > Egypt, and representatives of various ministries. > > What has the committee done? In February, it decided to allow > female genital mutilation to be performed one day a week in > government hospitals, thereby improving standards of hygiene. > > A loud outcry from feminists and human rights activists has > ensued. Some have taken the matter to court, where suits against > the government and the Islamic clergy are pending. > > Abdel-Fatah claims that outlawing the practice would drive it > dangerously underground. In his view, no law can root out the > practice effectively unless it is accompanied by a determined, > widespread public awareness campaign. > > The government has no plans for a separate education program. > Abdel-Fatah claims that counselling parents when they take their > daughter to the hospital will be enough. > > On the other side, a report issued recently by the Egyptian > Organization of Human Rights stated that the decree is "likely to > perpetuate the practice, rather than end it." > > Aziza Hussein, a pioneer in the campaign against female genital > mutilation, says, "At a time when we are talking intensively about > this unhealthy practice and attempting to prohibit it completely, > the health minister's decision has taken us back at least 50 > years." > > According to Farida Al-Nagash, founding member of the > Progressive Union of Women, and a former parliamentarian, the > decree seems part of "the entire government's trend to court > religious fundamentalists." > > Abdel-Fatah, while claiming the decree has nothing to do with > religion, has also said that he has no desire to antagonize the > people. He has urged enlightened preachers to explain that there is > no definite proof that Islam demands female circumcision. > > For many Egyptians, the surgical alteration of female genitalia > is seen as a rite of passage, signalling a girl's maturity. No > shame is associated with the practice, and parents do not view > themselves as harming their girl children. > > Karima Mustapha, a servant who works in Cairo, says if she had > a daughter, she would not hesitate to have her undergo the > procedure. "It is a tradition," she says. "This is life for a > woman." > > Although many women recover from the operation, and some claim > they lead healthy sex lives afterward, a significant number suffer > physically and mentally. > > Their ailments include various recurring infections, potential > infertility, and a myriad of psychological side effects such as > fear of marriage, sex and child birth. > > For some, the operation is fatal. Last year, 14-year-old Amira > from the small village of Kafr Al-Tawila, east of the Nile delta, > was taken by her parents to a licensed pediatrician who sliced off > her clitoris and labia minora. She died a few days later. > > Discussions of genital mutilation have generally been avoided > by the media and the government, partly because the ancient > practice has had the tacit blessings of many conservative Muslim > religious leaders. > > Talking about it stirs up a wide range of thorny theological > and cultural issues, from sources as diverse as Egypt's outspoken > feminist community and conservative mullahs. > > Although Sheikh Tantawi has dissociated Islam from the > practice, other religious leaders have insisted that the practice > was recommended by the Prophet Mohamed. > > In April, nine members of the Egyptian Organization for Human > Rights sued Sheikh Gad Al Haq, the head of Al-Azhar, one of the > Muslim world's most prestigious Islamic institutions, for > advocating female genital mutilation. The sheikh has not responded > publicly on the case. > > About 15 feminists and NGO representatives have also sued the > health minister for reversing what they say has been a long- > standing ban on the operation. > > They claim the decree is not only morally wrong, but also > illegal. It follows a 1959 law that banned the practice in > government hospitals and clinics. Lawyer Amira Baheyeddin, who is > handling the case, vows to have the new law "rescinded." > > The court has already twice refused the plaintiff's request to > suspend the implementation of the decree, and has referred the > issue to the State Judiciary Commission for a legal opinion. They > have not yet delivered a ruling. > > Baheyeddin fears that weeks, even months, could pass before a > decision is reached, but claims that she will pursue the matter to > the end. > > Ordinary Egyptian citizens often take a more moderate > perspective on the issue. Nur El-Messiri, a professor at the > American University in Cairo, says she thinks female circumcision > is "a barbaric practice." She has not been circumcised herself, and > claims the practice is prevalent mostly among rural and lower-class > urban populations. > > But she also says, "It is such an explosive issue, that a lot > depends upon who is citing statistics. They can be inflated by > those in the women's development industry or by those who are > defensive about Egyptian culture." > > Meanwhile, Abdel-Fatah insists that the government's decision > is the only way to prevent exposing girls to additional health > dangers. > > The decree proclaims that all non-licensed persons performing > the operation will be arrested and their places of business shut > down. > > Parents arriving in government hospitals with their daughters > will be met by a gynecologist, pediatrician, psychologist and > social worker to talk to them about the long-term unfavorable > effects of the operation. The operation will be performed only when > parents remain adamant. > > Then too, it might be a very limited version in which only a > tiny bit of the skin of a girl's clitoris would be removed and > passed off as the whole operation. > > According to Abdel-Fatah, this experiment has worked > successfully in some villages in Gharbiya province. Some parents > even change their minds about circumcising their daughters after > hearing what the doctors had to say. > > Abdel-Fatah's opponents, however, are not convinced. Population > minister Maher Mahran says that while it is right to close down > shops where the operations are carried out, it is wrong to allow it > in hospitals. "It is if we are encouraging it officially," he says. > > Concerned NGOs are in the midst of a loud public awareness > campaign arguing that the health minister's decree violates the > provisions of the many international treaties Egypt has signed, > including the Declaration for the Elimination of Torture, and the > Convention for the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination > Against Women. > > Meanwhile, none of the major state hospitals in Cairo has fixed > a day for circumcisions. Abdel-Fatah's decree could well prove to > be widely unpopular with the gynecologists and obstetricians of the > metropolis. > > Violence against women, including the practice of genital > mutilation, will be a major issue on the agenda of the U.N. Fourth > World Conference on Women next September in Beijing. (Ends/1200 > words) > > > Date: Tuesday, August 22, 1995 7:09am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 626892 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Declaration of Independence? (1 reply) I found this fictional response to the Declaration of Independence on the Net. I thought it was worth a good laugh. Response to a proposal for the "Declaration of Independence", which was submitted for review. FORWARDED: +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ The Court of King George III London, England July 10, 1776 Mr. Thomas Jefferson c/o The Continental Congress Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Dear Mr. Jefferson: We have read your "Declaration of Independence" with great interest. Certainly, it represents a considerable undertaking, and many of your statements do merit serious consideration. Unfortunately, the Declaration as a whole fails to meet recently adopted specifications for proposals to the Crown, so we must return the document to you for further refinement. The questions which follow might assist you in your process of revision: 1. In your opening paragraph you use the phrase "the Laws of Nature and Nature's God." What are these laws? In what way are they the criteria on which you base your central arguments? Please document with citations from the recent literature. 2. In the same paragraph you refer to the "opinions of mankind." Whose polling data are you using? Without specific evidence, it seems to us the "opinions of mankind" are a matter of opinion. 3. You hold certain truths to be "self-evident." Could you please elaborate. If they are as evident as you claim then it should not be difficult for you to locate the appropriate supporting statistics. 4. "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" seem to be the goals of your proposal. These are not measurable goals. If you were to say that "among these is the ability to sustain an average life expectancy in six of the 13 colonies of at last 55 years, and to enable newspapers in the colonies to print news without outside interference, and to raise the average income of the colonists by 10 percent in the next 10 years," these could be measurable goals. Please clarify. 5. You state that "Whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new Government...." Have you weighed this assertion against all the alternatives? What are the trade-off considerations? 6. Your description of the existing situation is quite extensive. Such a long list of grievances should precede the statement of goals, not follow it. Your problem statement needs improvement. 7. Your strategy for achieving your goal is not developed at all. You state that the colonies "ought to be Free and Independent States," and that they are "Absolved from All Allegiance to the British Crown." Who or what must change to achieve this objective? In what way must they change? What specific steps will you take to overcome the resistance? How long will it take? We have found that a little foresight in these areas helps to prevent careless errors later on. How cost-effective are your strategies? 8. Who among the list of signatories will be responsible for implementing your strategy? Who conceived it? Who provided the theoretical research? Who will constitute the advisory committee? Please submit an organization chart and vitas of the principal investigators. 9. You must include an evaluation design. We have been requiring this since Queen Anne's War. 10. What impact will your problem have? Your failure to include any assessment of this inspires little confidence in the long- range prospects of your undertaking. 11. Please submit a PERT diagram, an activity chart, itemized budget, and manpower utilization matrix. We hope that these comments prove useful in revising your "Declaration of Independence." We welcome the submission of your revised proposal. Our due date for unsolicited proposals is July 31, 1776. Ten copies with original signatures will be required. Sincerely, Management Analyst to the British Crown Date: Thursday, October 12, 1995 7:55am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Walts Msg#: 642386 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Colin Powell Part II (3 replies) From Time Magazine -- Part II Colin Powell is the ideal candidate.... His supporters are convinced he can transform American politics into something nobler and more productive. "If hebecomes President," says Gaylord Stevens, a Vietnam vet who brought his son in a Boy Scout uniform to hear Powell speak in San Antonio, Texas, as his own father had brought him to hear J.F.K., "we would have a dream again." Dreams are tricky things, tantalizing and nebulous. The dream of a black retired general in the White House has been projected onto a man who belongs to no political party and has not, according to those who know him well, either decided to run or decided when he will decide. Many politicos view a Powell run for the White House as a mirage because it rests on a popularity that is broad but untested. Right now he is still the Desert Storm demigod, but once he has to answer attack ads and identify programs to ax, his stature will surely deflate. Even assuming he could survive this inevitable erosion of esteem to retain the margin of victory in November 1996, it's not easy to chart any route that would get him to the top of a national ticket - especially since he has declared, "There is no particular passion in me for politics." REgards, WaltS Date: Friday, November 10, 1995 11:49am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Dna Msg#: 650864 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Much ado about very little Crack (2 replies) The latest much ado is the discrepancy between Federal Crack vs. Powdered Cocaine guidelines. As stated, it is unfair because federal felony guideline require 500g of powdered cocaine versus only 5g of crack. Of course, the discrepany is less when considered per dose. A gram of crack is 30 doses. A gram of powdered coke is 1 dose. So the discrepancy is really 500 doses versus 150 doses. Even then, it only applies to Federal offenses. Over 90% of cocaine-related prisoners are under state laws. And of the state cocaine prisoners, 94% are violent or repeat offenders. The typical Federal crack defendant actually sold 109g of Crack (3000 doses), and HAS a prior criminal record. In 1994, there were 3,430 federal crack defendants. Only 48 Federal sentences were given to young, non-violent minority males with no previous record. It is these 48 people that all the fuss is about. Source: The Weekly Standard. The above is guaranteed to be Limbaugh-free. Date: Sunday, December 10, 1995 10:23am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Walts Msg#: 657228 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Important Reaction to Congress - Long Post (1 reply) [A ...along post follows REgards, WaltS --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 00:33:33 -0500 (EST) From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" To: vtw-announce@VTW.ORG Subject: (ALERT) INTERNET DAY OF PROTEST TUESDAY DECEMBER 12, 1995 ======================================================================== CAMPAIGN TO STOP THE NET CENSORSHIP LEGISLATION IN CONGRESS On Tuesday December 12, 1995, Join With Hundreds of Thousands Of Your Fellow Internet Users In A NATIONAL INTERNET DAY OF PROTEST PLEASE WIDELY REDISTRIBUTE THIS DOCUMENT WITH THIS BANNER INTACT REDISTRIBUTE ONLY UNTIL December 20, 1995 ________________________________________________________________________ CONTENTS Internet Day of Protest: Tuesday December 12, 1995 What You Must Do On Tuesday December 12, 1995 List of Participating Organizations Where Can I Learn More? ________________________________________________________________________ INTERNET DAY OF PROTEST: TUESDAY DECEMBER 12, 1995 Outrageous proposals to censor the Internet demand that the Internet Community take swift and immediate action. We must stand up and let Congress know that we will not tolerate their attempts to destroy this medium! Please join hundreds of thousands of your fellow citizens in a National Day of Protest on Tuesday December 12, 1995. As you know, on Wednesday December 6, 1995, the House Conference Committee on Telecommunications Reform voted to impose far reaching and unconstitutional "indecency" restrictions on the Internet and other interactive media, including large commercial online services (such as America Online, Compuserve, and Prodigy) and smaller Internet Service Providers such as Panix, the Well, Echo, and Mindvox. These restrictions threaten the very existence of the Internet and interactive media as a viable medium for free expression, education, commerce. If enacted, the Internet as we know it will never be the same. Libraries will not be able to put any books online that might offend a child somewhere. No "Catcher in the Rye" or "Ulysses" on the net. Internet Service Providers could face criminal penalties for allowing children to subscribe to their Internet Services, forcing many small companies to simply refuse to sell their services to anyone under 18. Worst of all, everything you say and publish on the net will have to be "dumbed down" to that which is acceptable to a child. As Internet users, we simply must not allow this assault against the Internet and our most basic freedoms to go unchallenged. On Tuesday December 12, the organizations below are urging you to join us in a NATIONAL DAY OF PROTEST. The goal is to flood key membersof the House and Senate with phone calls, faxes and email with the message that the Internet community WILL NOT TOLERATE Congressional attempts to destroy the Internet, limit our freedoms and trample on our rights. Below are the phone, fax, and email address of several key members of Congress on this issue and instructions on what you can do to join the National Day of Protest to save the Net. ______________________________________________________________________ WHAT YOU MUST DO ON TUESDAY DECEMBER 12, 1995 1. Throughout the day Tuesday December 12, please contact as many members of Congress on the list below as you can. If you are only able to make one call, contact House Speaker Newt Gingrich. Finally, if the Senator or Representative from your state is on the list below, be sure to contact him or her also. 2. Urge each Member of Congress to "stop the madness". Tell them that they are about to pass legislation that will destroy the Internet as an educational and commercial medium. If you are at a loss for words, try the following sample communique: Sample phone call: Both the House and Senate bills designed to protect children from objectionable material on the Internet will actually destroy the Internet as an medium for education, commerce, and political discourse. There are other, less restrictive ways to address this issue. I urge you to oppose both measures being proposed in the conference committee. This is an important election issue to me. Sample letter (fax or email): The Senate conferees are considering ways to protect children from inappropriate material on the Internet. A vote for either the House or Senate proposals will result in the destruction of the Internet as a viable medium for free expression, education, commerce. Libraries will not be able to put their entire book collections online. Everyday people like me will risk massive fines and prison sentences for public discussions someone s somewhere might consider "indecent". There are other, less restrictive ways to protect children from objectionable material online. This is an important election issue to me. 3. If you're in San Francisco, or near enough to get there, go to the Rally Against Censorship from Ground Zero of the Digital Revolution: WHEN: Monday, December 11, 1995 12:00 - 1:00 PM WHERE: South Park (between 2nd and 3rd, Bryant and Brannon) San Francisco. SPEAKERS: To be announced BRING: Attention-grabbing posters, signs, and banners that demonstrate your committment to free speech and expression, and your feelings about Congress. FOR UPDATED INFORMATION (including rain info): http://www.hotwired.com/staff/digaman/ ### THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT ### [A 4. Mail a note to protest@vtw.org to let us know you did your part. Although you will not receive a reply due to the number of anticipated responses, we'll be counting up the number of people that participated in the day of protest. P ST Name and Address Phone Fax = == ======================== ============== ============== R AK Stevens, Ted 1-202-224-3004 1-202-224-1044 R AZ McCain, John 1-202-224-2235 1-602-952-8702 senator_mccain@mccain.senate.gov D HI Inouye, Daniel K. 1-202-224-3934 1-202-224-6747 R KS Dole, Robert 1-202-224-6521 1-202-228-1245 D KY Ford, Wendell H. 1-202-224-4343 1-202-224-0046 wendell_ford@ford.senate.gov R MS Lott, Trent 1-202-224-6253 1-202-224-2262 R MT Burns, Conrad R. 1-202-224-2644 1-202-224-8594 conrad_burns@burns.senate.gov D NE Exon, J. J. 1-202-224-4224 1-202-224-5213 D SC Hollings, Ernest F. 1-202-224-6121 1-202-224-4293 senator@hollings.senate.gov R SD Pressler, Larry 1-202-224-5842 1-202-224-1259 larry_pressler@pressler.senate.gov R WA Gorton, Slade 1-202-224-3441 1-202-224-9393 senator_gorton@gorton.senate.gov D WV Rockefeller, John D. 1-202-224-6472 n.a. senator@rockefeller.senate.gov Dist ST Name, Address, and Party Phone Fax ==== == ======================== ============== ============== 6 GA Gingrich, Newt (R) 1-202-225-4501 1-202-225-4656 2428 RHOB georgia6@hr.house.gov 14 MI Conyers Jr., John (D) 1-202-225-5126 1-202-225-0072 2426 RHOB jconyers@hr.house.gov 1 CO Schroeder, Patricia (D) 1-202-225-4431 1-202-225-5842 2307 RHOB 18 TX Jackson-Lee, Sheila (D) 1-202-225-3816 1-202-225-3317 1520 LHOB 6 TN Gordon, Bart (D) 1-202-225-4231 1-202-225-6887 2201 RHOB 4. Forward this alert to all of your wired friends. ________________________________________________________________________ WHERE CAN I LEARN MORE? At this moment, there are several organizations with WWW sites that now have, or will have, information about the net censorship legislation and the National Day Of Protest: American Civil Liberties Union (ftp://ftp.aclu.org/aclu/) Center for Democracy and Technology (http://www.cdt.org/) Electronic Frontier Foundation (http://www.eff.org/) Electronic Privacy Information Center (http://www.epic.org/) Wired Magazine (http://www.hotwired.com/special/indecent/) Voters Telecommunications Watch (http://www.vtw.org/) ======================================================================= Date: Thursday, December 21, 1995 7:21am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Walts Msg#: 659690 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: This Just In - Part II ...and my response was... REgards, WaltS ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 07:14:14 -0500 (est) From: Walter Schmidt To: Louis Cohen Subject: Re: Happy Holidays Louis Cohen Hofstra "77" Good to hear Donner, Blitzen and crew are okay, albeit being replaced. Fully understand the effect of competition on profits [we too have had to tighten the belt as to gift-giving]. If the sled is model xmas91 please have the carriage bolts checked -- it is our understanding that a recall due to yen-strength was made. By the way, we have it on good authority that Rudolph does love his Kummel [not the JagerMeister upstart]. But no matter, we also understand that help is being sort as "His name is Rudpolph..." As to the 12 Days of Christmas [we understood they were using the numeric! Something about springboarding off 12 Step publicity at no cost to the sub], a friendly word of advice. It would seem you have at least two competitors. A very old firm headed by three Patriarchs from the Orient, and, an new [upstart from our point of veiw] organization, headed by a family Zayde, with something to do with a stollen sled and an accident with the family Bubee. By the way, we also have heard that the eight maids-a-milking and nine ladies dancing were involved with the local Holiday Inn Lingerie Show scandal [or rather the after-show sales to the ten lords-a-leading scandal]. Lastly, be on the lookout for a corporate-raider who we understand is trying to take over the whole-shebang - he goes by the name Grinch. Changing subjects, slightly, do you have any word on the Maccabean oil shortage? As we understand it, they need an eight-fold increase in supply. Also, any word on the TOPical Nichts-Ganz-Halb-Stell versus Nes Gadol Hayah Sham controversy??? Keep up the good work! W.C.Schmidt C.W. Post Class of '74 (which should have been '69 but for a four year stint in the Navy) --- REgards, walts@dorsai.org ------------- Walter C. Schmidt, CPA - - Computers | http://www.dorsai.org/~walts/ - - Accounting & | Vice President Massapequa Chamber mcc@dorsai.org --- Taxes | Chair Nassau Council Net Access nccc@dorsai.org - - - - 52 Yin (KEN gen) Date: Saturday, December 30, 1995 3:57pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Dna Msg#: 661968 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: New government bonds: (1 reply) During the government shutdown the Treasury is issuing three new types of temporary securities. Of course there's a few limitations: The Newt Gingrich notes (has no maturity) The Bob Dole notes (has no interest) The Bill Clinton notes (has no principle) (As per William Safire) Date: Sunday, January 14, 1996 12:48pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 666783 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Internet brown outs File: BROWNOUT.TXT This was posted to one of my e mail lists. It's an article regarding the Internet becoming overwhelmed by the increase in traffic in the net and crashing as a result of the increased traffic. Fascinating stuff. Date: Thursday, February 22, 1996 9:01am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 679004 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Analysis of Buchanan (2 replies) From the net, here is an analysis of the Buchanan factor. I don't agree with all, or even most of the anlaysis. But I am running late so I don't have the time to specify what I agree with, what I disagree with and why. If someone responds to this message and posts a message to me asking me for my response, I would love it! It will show me some one pays attention to these posts from the net. Anyway, here it is. From owner-abigails-l@netcom.com Thu Feb 22 01:06 EST 1996 Subject: Buchanan ANALYSIS: WILL PAT BUCHANAN DESTROY THE GOP? Copyright 1996 by Bob Fertik Co-publisher and Co-editor, Political Woman Hotline February 20, 1996 In 1992, Pat Buchanan took on George Bush and, although it was not his intent, ultimately destroyed him. In 1996, although it is not his intent, Buchanan is about to destroy the entire GOP. If so, no one should weep, because the GOP will simply be harvesting the seeds of evil that it planted through the eras of Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan, George Bush, and Newt Gingrich. Like Dr. Frankenstein, the GOP has created a monster, and now it must subdue that monster or die at its hands. In 1992, Buchanan destroyed Bush by dividing the GOP into two camps, conservatives and ultra-conservatives. Although Bush pursued strictly conservative policies, ultra-conservatives opposed him because he respected the Constitution and negotiated a budget with the Democratic Congress. Buchanan advocated an inflexible, intolerant, uncompromising line that appealed to the ultra-conservative primary voters. Although Buchanan didn't win any primaries, he won enough votes to expose the weakness of Bush's support among ultra-conservatives. In the end, Buchanan forced Bush to give him a prime time slot at the convention, where he declared a "Cultural War" and (with the help of fellow extremist Pat Robertson) turned the nation off to the GOP, thus paving the way for Bush's defeat. This year, Buchanan has a much easier task. He has been through the process, so he has an organization, a donor base, and a core group of voters. His principal rival is not an incumbent President, and the Republican field is large and divided. This time around, Pat Buchanan can actually win the nomination. New Hampshire is only the beginning. He will move on to South Carolina and the rest of the primaries, building more and more support as long as he stays in the race. Ordinarily he might be expected to falter in the larger states where money is so important, but his immigrant-bashing will play well among mainstream Republicans in Florida, Texas, and California. Even without money, Buchanan will be a contender to the end because he knows how to use the media so effectively. Buchanan's success is putting tremendous pressure on Republicans to find a way to stop him. Dole is spending millions to do so, but lacks a message to inspire the voters. Alexander is gaining ground because he is attractive and upbeat, but his self-touted "ideas" are ill-considered and his business record makes Whitewater look like a lemonade stand. Neither one can stop Buchanan by himself. Lacking a candidate, Republican leaders are resorting to other tactics. Some of them have highlighted Buchanan's close association with extremists like Larry Pratt of the far- right Gun Owners of America. George Will, whose wife is communications director for the Dole campaign, tried to go mano-a-mano on This Week With David Brinkley. Newt Gingrich traveled to New Hampshire to warn voters against him. If he were up to it, someone would undoubtedly send Ronald Reagan himself out to stop Buchanan. But in the end, no one can stop Buchanan -- except Buchanan himself. Buchanan has revved up the party's far right, uniting racists, anti- Semites, misogynists, homophobes, gun nuts, anti-environmentalists, and every other conservative fringe faction. And he has reached across the spectrum to ordinary working people by focusing on corporate greed and America's loss of jobs, topics even Democrats refuse to address. He has positioned himself both on the right *and* the left, and left GOP leaders with no real constituency except the rich and the conservative media elite, who have considerable power but few votes. So the question becomes, what does Pat Buchanan want? If he really wants the nomination, the GOP has a Hobson's choice: to give it to him and thereby destroy itself in the eyes of mainstream America, or to deny it to him by breaking party rules and thereby destroy itself in the eyes of its members. Either way, the party is destroyed. Even if Buchanan settled for the Vice Presidency, he would take the ticket and the party down to defeat. The only way for the GOP to survive is for Buchanan to drop out. And he cannot drop out, because he has built his career on his reputation as a fighter, not a quitter. As the GOP teeters on the brink of destruction, it is clear that the party brought this fate upon itself. As Tanya Melich clearly describes in "The Republican War Against Women," party strategists in the 1960's learned they could win elections by playing on America's social divisions -- race, religion, gender, sexuality, and guns. To promote these divisions, they encouraged the conservative extremists in their party to organize by giving them money, key positions in government, and control over the party platform. (For example, the Christian Coalition got started with a major contribution from the Republican Party.) Now Buchanan has united those extremists into a powerful electoral force, and the party which created this force is cringing in terror. Like Dr. Frankenstein, the Republican Party has created a monster which will destroy it and everything it holds dear unless it abandons its efforts at division and becomes a party which tries to unite and strengthen the nation, rather than divide and destroy it. -end- This analysis may be re-printed with permission. Political Woman Hotline is published bi-weekly by Political Woman Inc., 276 Chatterton Parkway, White Plains NY 10606. It is distributed as a membership benefit to members of Women Leaders Online, the largest women's political organization on the Internet, with a home page at http://worcester.lm.com/women/women.html. For more information, e-mail PolWoman@aol.com or call 800-WOMAN96. Date: Tuesday, February 27, 1996 5:32am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 680387 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Republican ?Jokes? Republican jokes from the net. :) (If we don't laugh, we're all just gonna cry.) From owner-abigails-l@netcom.com Tue Feb 27 03:47 EST 1996 From: Varda Ullman Novick Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 21:02:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Republicana ;-) ** list-admin ABIGAILS-L: many a-truth was said in jest. thanks, Varda! ============ forwarded funny #1 =============================== Pat Buchanan says there's no room on his campaign staff for racists or sexists. Of course not, says David Gee: "Those positions were filled months ago." ============ forwarded funny #2 =============================== How many Republicans does it take to screw in a lightbulb? Four hundred and sixty-two: Twelve to investigate Clinton's involvement in the failure of the old bulb, twenty-three to deregulate the light bulb industry, sixteen to cut funding for alternative lighting R&D, thirty-four to cut the tax rate on light bulbs, fifty-three to design a block grant so the states can change the bulb, forty-one to talk with defense contractors about night-vision gear instead, and two hundred and eighty-three to pass a law making it illegal to discuss naked bulbs (or screwing anything) on the Internet. JOHN J. WHITT =========================== organist@mindspring.com =========================== Life on earth may be expensive, but it does include an annual free trip around the sun. Date: Saturday, March 2, 1996 10:23am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 681248 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Buchanan quotes (2 replies) This is something that has been circulating around the net for the past week or so. I actually should have posted it here a while ago! From queerlaw-owner@abacus.oxy.edu Fri Mar 1 20:43 EST 1996 From: Kenneth Sherrill To: queer law list , David Powell Subject: Pat Buchanan Quotes (fwd) As requested... Ken ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 19:33:07 -0500 (EST) From: Kenneth Sherrill To: kenslist Subject: Pat Buchanan Quotes Posted: Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting To: Recipients of fair-l Subject: Buchanan's Bigoted Statements From: Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting FAIR Report: PATRICK BUCHANAN -- IN HIS OWN WORDS February 26, 1996 Contact: Steven Rendall In the flap over Larry Pratt and other unsavory characters associated with the Patrick Buchanan campaign, journalists typically framed the question: Is Buchanan linked to extremists and bigots? But there is a more basic question journalists should ask: Is Patrick Buchanan himself an extremist and bigot? Here is a sampling of Buchanan's views: ON AFRICAN-AMERICANS After Sen. Carol Moseley Braun blocked a federal patent for a Confederate flag insignia, Buchanan wrote that she was "putting on an act" by associating the Confederacy with slavery: "The War Between the States was about independence, about self- determination, about the right of a people to break free of a government to which they could no longer give allegiance," Buchanan asserted. "How long is this endless groveling before every cry of 'racism' going to continue before the whole country collectively throws up?" (syndicated column, 7/28/93) On race relations in the late 1940s and early 1950s: "There were no politics to polarize us then, to magnify every slight. The 'negroes' of Washington had their public schools, restaurants, bars, movie houses, playgrounds and churches; and we had ours." (Right from the Beginning, Buchanan's 1988 autobiography, p. 131) Buchanan, who opposed virtually every civil rights law and court decision of the last 30 years, published FBI smears of Martin Luther King Jr. as his own editorials in the St. Louis Globe Democrat in the mid-1960s. "We were among Hoover's conduits to the American people," he boasted (Right from the Beginning, p. 283). White House advisor Buchanan urged President Nixon in an April 1969 memo not to visit "the Widow King" on the first anniversary of Martin Luther King's assassination, warning that a visit would "outrage many, many people who believe Dr. King was a fraud and a demagogue and perhaps worse.... Others consider him the Devil incarnate. Dr. King is one of the most divisive men in contemporary history." (New York Daily News, 10/1/90) In a memo to President Nixon, Buchanan suggested that "integration of blacks and whites -- but even more so, poor and well-to-do -- is less likely to result in accommodation than it is in perpetual friction, as the incapable are placed consciously by government side by side with the capable." (Washington Post, 1/5/92) In another memo from Buchanan to Nixon: "There is a legitimate grievance in my view of white working-class people that every time, on every issue, that the black militants loud-mouth it, we come up with more money.... If we can give 50 Phantoms [jet fighters] to the Jews, and a multi-billion dollar welfare program for the blacks...why not help the Catholics save their collapsing school system." (Boston Globe, 1/4/92) Buchanan has repeatedly insisted that President Reagan did so much for African-Americans that civil rights groups have no reason to exist: "George Bush should have told the [NAACP convention] that black America has grown up; that the NAACP should close up shop, that its members should go home and reflect on JFK's admonition: 'Ask not what your country can do for you, but rather ask what you can do for your country.'" (syndicated column, 7/26/88) In a column sympathetic to ex-Klansman David Duke, Buchanan chided he Republican Party for overreacting to Duke and his Nazi "costume": "Take a hard look at Duke's portfolio of winning issues and expropriate those not in conflict with GOP principles, [such as] reverse discrimination against white folks." (syndicated column, 2/25/89) Trying to justify apartheid in South Africa, he denounced the notion that "white rule of a black majority is inherently wrong. Where did we get that idea? The Founding Fathers did not believe this." (syndicated column, 2/7/90) He referred admiringly to the apartheid regime as the "Boer Republic": "Why are Americans collaborating in a U.N. conspiracy to ruin her with sanctions?" (syndicated column, 9/17/89) ON IMMIGRANTS AND PEOPLE OF COLOR: "There is nothing wrong with us sitting down and arguing that issue that we are a European country." (Newsday, 11/15/92) Buchanan on affirmative action: "How, then, can the feds justify favoring sons of Hispanics over sons of white Americans who fought in World War II or Vietnam?" (syndicated column, 1/23/95) In a September 1993 speech to the Christian Coalition, Buchanan described multiculturalism as "an across-the-board assault on our Anglo-American heritage." "If we had to take a million immigrants in, say Zulus, next year, or Englishmen, and put them up in Virginia, what group would be easier to assimilate and would cause less problems for the people of Virginia?" ("This Week With David Brinkley," 1/8/91) ON JEWS: Buchanan referred to Capitol Hill as "Israeli-occupied territory." (St. Louis Post Dispatch, 10/20/90) During the Gulf crisis: "There are only two groups that are beating the drums for war in the Middle East -- the Israeli defense ministry and its 'amen corner' in the United States." ("McLaughlin Group," 8/26/90) In a 1977 column, Buchanan said that despite Hitler's anti-Semitic and genocidal tendencies, he was "an individual of great courage...Hitler's success was not based on his extraordinary gifts alone. His genius was an intuitive sense of the mushiness, the character flaws, the weakness masquerading as morality that was in the hearts of the statesmen who stood in his path." (The Guardian, 1/14/92) Writing of "group fantasies of martyrdom," Buchanan challenged the historical record that thousands of Jews were gassed to death by diesel exhaust at Treblinka: "Diesel engines do not emit enough carbon monoxide to kill anybody." (New Republic, 10/22/90) Buchanan's columns have run in the Liberty Lobby's Spotlight, the German-American National PAC newsletter and other publications that claim Nazi death camps are a Zionist concoction. Buchanan called for closing the U.S. Justice Department's Office of Special Investigations, which prosecuted Nazi war criminals, because it was "running down 70-year-old camp guards." (New York Times, 4/21/87) Buchanan was vehement in pushing President Reagan -- despite protests -- to visit Germany's Bitburg cemetery, where Nazi SS troops were buried. At a White House meeting, Buchanan reportedly reminded Jewish leaders that they were "Americans first" -- and repeatedly scrawled the phrase "Succumbing to the pressure of the Jews" in his notebook. Buchanan was credited with crafting Ronald Reagan's line that the SS troops buried at Bitburg were "victims just as surely as the victims in the concentration camps." (New York Times, 5/16/85; New Republic, 1/22/96) After Cardinal O'Connor criticized anti-Semitism during the controversy over construction of a convent near Auschwitz, Buchanan wrote: "If U.S. Jewry takes the clucking appeasement of the Catholic cardinalate as indicative of our submission, it is mistaken. When Cardinal O'Connor of New York seeks to soothe the always irate Elie Wiesel by reassuring him 'there are many Catholics who are anti-Semitic'...he speaks for himself. Be not afraid, Your Eminence; just step aside, there are bishops and priests ready to assume the role of defender of the faith." (New Republic, 10/22/90) The Buchanan '96 campaign's World Wide Web site included an article blaming the death of White House aide Vincent Foster on the Israeli intelligence agency, Mossad -- and alleging that Foster and Hillary Clinton were Mossad spies. (The campaign removed the article after its existence was reported by a Jewish on-line news service; Jewish Telegraphic Agency, 2/21/96.) In his September 1993 speech to the Christian Coalition, Buchanan declared: "Our culture is superior. Our culture is superior because our religion is Christianity and that is the truth that makes men free." (ADL Report, 1994) ON GAYS: In a 1972 memo to Richard Nixon, Buchanan referred to one of George McGovern's leading financial contributors as a "screaming fairy." (Newsday, 2/8/89) Buchanan has repeatedly used the term "sodomites," and has referred to gays as "the pederast proletariat." (Washington Post, 2/9/92) "Homosexuality involves sexual acts most men consider not only immoral, but filthy. The reason public men rarely say aloud what most say privately is they are fearful of being branded 'bigots' by an intolerant liberal orthodoxy that holds, against all evidence and experience, that homosexuality is a normal, healthy lifestyle." (syndicated column, 9/3/89) In a 1977 column urging a "thrashing" of gay groups, Buchanan wrote: "Homosexuality is not a civil right. Its rise almost always is accompanied, as in the Weimar Republic, with a decay of society and a collapse of its basic cinder block, the family." (New Republic, 3/30/92) "Gay rights activists seek to substitute, for laws rooted in Judeo- Christian morality, laws rooted in the secular humanist belief that all consensual sexual acts are morally equal. That belief is anti- biblical and amoral; to codify it into law is to codify a lie." (Buchanan column in Wall Street Journal, 1/21/93) On AIDS, Buchanan wrote in 1983: "The poor homosexuals -- they have declared war upon nature, and now nature is extracting an awful retribution (AIDS)." (Los Angeles Times, 11/28/86) Later that year, he demanded that New York City Ed Koch and New York Gov. Mario Cuomo cancel the Gay Pride Parade or else "be held personally responsible for the spread of the AIDS plague." "With 80,000 dead of AIDS, our promiscuous homosexuals appear literally hell-bent on Satanism and suicide," Buchanan wrote in 1990 (syndicated column, 10/17/90). In the 1992 campaign, he declared: "AIDS is nature's retribution for violating the laws of nature." (Seattle Times, 7/31/93) ON WOMEN: "Rail as they will about 'discrimination,' women are simply not endowed by nature with the same measures of single-minded ambition and the will to succeed in the fiercely competitive world of Western capitalism." (syndicated column, 11/22/83) "The real liberators of American women were not the feminist noise- makers, they were the automobile, the supermarket, the shopping center, the dishwasher, the washer-dryer, the freezer." (Right from the Beginning, p. 149) "If a woman has come to believe that divorce is the answer to every difficult marriage, that career comes before children .. no democratic government can impose another set of values upon her." (Right from the Beginning, p. 341) ON DEMOCRACY: Attacking what he considers the "democratist temptation, the worship of democracy as a form of governance," Buchanan commented: "Like all idolatries, democratism substitutes a false god for the real, a love of process for a love of country." (Patrick J. Buchanan: From the Right, newsletter, Spring/90) In a January, 1991 column, Buchanan suggested that "quasi- dictatorial rule" might be the solution to the problems of big municipalities and the federal fiscal crisis: "If the people are corrupt, the more democracy, the worse the government." (Washington Times, 1/9/91) He has written disparagingly of the "one man, one vote Earl Warren system." In Right from the Beginning, Buchanan refers to Spanish dictator Francisco Franco as a "Catholic savior." He called Franco, along with Chile's Gen. Pinochet, "soldier-patriots." (syndicated column 9/17/89) Both men overthrew democracy in their countries. Buchanan devotes a chapter of his autobiography -- "As We Remember Joe" -- to defending Senator Joe McCarthy. He advocated that Nixon "burn the tapes" during Watergate, and he criticized Reagan for failing to pardon Oliver North over Iran-contra. Buchanan, shortly before he announced he was running for president in 1995: "You just wait until 1996, then you'll see a real right- wing tyrant." (The Nation, 6/26/95) *** For information on FAIR, send a blank e-mail message to fair-info@fair.org or visit out web site at: http://www.fair.org/fair ************************************************************************ Date: Wednesday, April 3, 1996 5:40pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 691707 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: A little humor (2 replies) I found this on the net. Thought it was amusing. :) [ Originally posted by cdiani@WEBER.UCSD.EDU ] Los Angeles Times April l2,1996 Editorial MARRIAGE: Gays want to taunt heterosexuals with the subversive notion that a lawful union can be stable and happy... By Robert Scheer...... Date: Wednesday, April 3, 1996 6:06pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 691726 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Take Your Daughter to Work Day File: DAUGHTER.TXT (1 reply) This is info regarding the official Take Your Daughter To Work Day. I think it answers every conceivable question and objection regarding this annual event. I would strongly encourage all those with daughters to participate in the event. Date: Sunday, April 21, 1996 8:10am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Drpax Msg#: 696722 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Revealed: Where Lesbians really come from! (Copy by Calvin) (3 replies) News Item in Saturday's POST: CALL IT ANTI-CLIMAX MILWAUKEE -- A judge threw out a lawsuit filed against a church by a 73-year old woman who claims she began having spontaneous orgasms and became attracted to women after an electronic bingo board fell on her. Mary Verdev"s lawsuit was tossed because she refused to undergo a psychological exam. Verdev claimed she suffered nearly $90,000 in injuries when a 300-pound board fell off the stage at a bingo night in 1990. Date: Wednesday, April 24, 1996 12:20pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 698140 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Bernie Goetz (7 replies) Hmmm...don't know if I spelled his name correctly. So, how many here are upset that the jury did not award the full $50 million? Date: Sunday, May 12, 1996 8:12am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 702546 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: A political commentary (2 replies) Found this on one of my e mail lists, thought I'd share. :) A man walks into an antique store, and starts looking around. All of the sudden he spies a huge BRASS RAT in the corner. He falls in love with it, and so he takes it to the cashier. "The rat, eh?" says the old grizly cashier "um, yeah...how much?" replies our friend "Well, five bucks for the rat--but 200 dollars for the story." he rpelied "I'll just take the rat, without the story." Says the customer. He leaves the store, his precious brass rat tucked under his arm. Soon he begins to notice that a few rats are following him. He walks a few more blocks and the number of rats behind him increased . This continued, until there were virtually millions of rats behind him. Afraid of this mass following the man ran to the sea and threw the rat in. All of the rats plunged in after it, and met their watery deaths. The man ran back to the antique store. The old cashier was chuckling to himself. "So now do you want the story?" "No", said the man "but have you got any brass republicans?' Date: Sunday, May 19, 1996 8:54am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 703790 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Are you a conservative? (5 replies) Found this on the net. Thought it was a good commentary on the inconsitencies of the right wing. YOU MIGHT BE A CONSERVATIVE IF - You say you want less government, but want to ban abortions, regulate sexual behavior, and hold prayers in public schools. - You think it's possible to cut taxes, increase spending, and balance the budget at the same time. - You can enunciate the "Christian" position on capital punishment and assault weapons. - You believe in "State's Rights", so long as the state doesn't allow same-sex marriages. - You believe in free speech, unless the speaker is burning a US flag. - You think Bill Clinton is a big phony, whereas Ronald Reagan was "The Great Communicator". - You hate those politically correct college professors, and think Joseph McCarthy was a national hero. - You think that anyone who invokes the Fifth Amendment is a criminal so-and-so with something to hide... Unless the defendant is Oliver North. - You hate Dan Quayle jokes. - You are outraged at violence in the motion picture industry, unless the star is a big Republican contributor like Arnold Schwarzenegger. - You think Ferdinand Marcos was a valuable US ally, and Jean- Bertrand Aristide is a murderous Commie. - You think an increase in the minimum wage will hurt the poor. - You would rather endure a recession than let the government take steps to prevent one. - You think $65 in AFDC payments will encourage welfare moms to have babies, but a $500 child tax credit won't. - You don't think tax credits increase the deficit, because the government is just letting you keep your own money. - You think the United Auto Workers are overpaid, but the CEO's of GM, Ford and Chrysler are worth every penny. - George Will makes sense to you. - Pat Robertson makes even more sense. - You think that English should be the official language, that illegal immigrants are a burden on society, and that their children should be barred from attending public schools. - You hold a deep admiration and respect for the men and women of law enforcement, unless they work for the IRS. - You attended public schools, graduated from a state university, worked for the government all your life, and now think your taxes are too high. - You feel more sympathy for twelve White House Travel Office employees than for the 40,000 downsized workers at AT&T. - You want to clear the courts of product liability lawsuits, to make room for polluters sueing the EPA. - You want to raise the admission fee to national parks, and think loggers should be able to clear-cut for free. - Your idea of a "rugged individual" is someone who owns a 50,000 acre ranch, drives a Jeep Grand Cherokee with leather seats and CD changer, lets his cattle graze on Federal land for free, and collects Federal farm subsidies. Date: Monday, May 20, 1996 6:40pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 704052 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Supreme Court decision I (1 reply) As promised here is the sylabus of the Supreme Court decision regarding the Colorado 2 anti-gay initative. The sylabus is written by the court as a kind of summing up of the decision. ************************************************************************ ROY ROMER, GOVERNOR OF COLORADO, ET AL., PETITIONERS v. RICHARD G. EVANS ET AL. No. 94-1039 SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES 1996 U.S. LEXIS 3245 October 10, 1995, Argued May 20, 1996, Decided NOTICE: [*1] This preliminary LEXIS version is unedited and subject to revision. The LEXIS pagination of this document is subject to change pending release of the final published version. PRIOR HISTORY: ON WRIT OF CERTIORARI TO THE SUPREME COURT OF COLORADO. SYLLABUS: After various Colorado municipalities passed ordinances banning discrimination based on sexual orientation in housing, employment, education, public accommodations, health and welfare services, and other transactions and activities, Colorado voters adopted by statewide referendum "Amendment 2" to the State Constitution, which precludes all legislative, executive, or judicial action at any level of state or local government designed to protect the status of persons based on their "homosexual, lesbian or bisexual orientation, conduct, practices or relationships." Respondents, who include aggrieved homosexuals and municipalities, commenced this litigation in state court against petitioner state parties to declare Amendment 2 invalid [*2] and enjoin its enforcement. The trial court's grant of a preliminary injunction was sustained by the Colorado Supreme Court, which held that Amendment 2 was subject to strict scrutiny under the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment because it infringed the fundamental right of gays and lesbians to participate in the political process. On remand, the trial court found that the Amendment failed to satisfy strict scrutiny. It enjoined Amendment 2's enforcement, and the State Supreme Court affirmed. Held: Amendment 2 violates the Equal Protection Clause. Pp. 4-14. (a) The State's principal argument that Amendment 2 puts gays and lesbians in the same position as all other persons by denying them special rights is rejected as implausible. The extent of the change in legal status effected by this law is evident from the authoritative construction of Colorado's Supreme Court--which establishes that the amendment's immediate effect is to repeal all existing statutes, regulations, ordinances, and policies of state and local entities barring discrimination based on sexual orientation, and that its ultimate effect is to prohibit any governmental entity from adopting [*3] similar, or more protective, measures in the future absent state constitutional amendment--and from a review of the terms, structure, and operation of the ordinances that would be repealsed and prohibited by Amendment 2. Even if, as the State contends, homosexuals can find protection in laws and policies of general application, Amendment 2 goes well beyond merely depriving them of special rights. It imposes a broad disability upon those persons alone, forbidding them, but no others, to seek specific legal protection from injuries caused by discrimination in a wide range of public and private transactions. Pp. 4-9. (b) In order to reconcile the Fourteenth Amendment's promise that no person shall be denied equal protection with the practical reality that most legislation classifies for one purpose or another, the Court has stated that it will uphold a law that neither burdens a fundamental right nor targets a suspect class so long as the legislative classification bears a rational relation to some independent and legitimate legislative end. See, e.g., Heller v. Doe, 509 U. S. 312, 319-320. Amendment 2 fails, indeed defies, even this conventional inquiry. First, the amendment [*4] is at once too narrow and too broad, identifying persons by a single trait and then denying them the possibility of protection across the board. This disqualification of a class of persons from the right to obtain specific protection from the law is unprecedented and is itself a denial of equal protection in the most literal sense. Second, the sheer breadth of Amendment 2, which makes a general announcement that gays and lesbians shall not have any particular protections from the law, is so far removed from the reasons offered for it, i.e., respect for other citizens' freedom of association, particularly landlords or employers who have personal or religious objections to homosexuality, and the State's interest in conserving resources to fight discrimination against other groups, that the amendment cannot be explained by reference to those reasons; the Amendment raises the inevitable inference that it is born of animosity toward the class that it affects. Amendment 2 cannot be said to be directed to an identifiable legitimate purpose or discrete objective. It is a status-based classification of persons undertaken for its own sake, something the Equal Protection Clause does not permit. [*5] Pp. 9-14. 882 P. 2d 1335, affirmed. JUDGES: KENNEDY, J., delivered the opinion of the Court, in which STEVENS, O'CONNOR, SOUTER, GINSBURG, and BREYER, JJ., joined. SCALIA, J., filed a dissenting opinion, in which REHNQUIST, C. J., and THOMAS, J., joined. Date: Monday, May 20, 1996 6:52pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 704063 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Romer decision File: ROMER.TXT Here is the entire majority decision from the Supreme Court today on the Colorado anti-gay initiative. I tried to upload it directly but it didn't work because it's too long. So I'm stuck attaching it as a file. Hope Ed approves it quickly! :) Date: Wednesday, May 22, 1996 7:23am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 704406 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Statement (2 replies) Ok. Let me try to post this statement again. I thought the people on this board would like to see that at least some support for g/l/b rights exists in "mainstream" Jewish organizations. :) >From: Tova Stabin >To: "BRIDGES: the Jewish Feminist journal" >Subject: AJC & ADL Statements on Colorado Decision (fwd) >fyi: two press releases from two jewish organizations about the supreme >court decision concerning the colorado case, overturning "anti-gay" bill. > > > Copyright 1996 PR Newswire Association, Inc. > > PR Newswire > > > > May 20, 1996, Monday - 17:41 Eastern Time > > >SECTION: Washington Dateline > >DISTRIBUTION: TO NATIONAL, POLITICAL AND RELIGION EDITORS > >LENGTH: 331 words > >HEADLINE: SUPREME COURT WAS CORRECT IN OVERTURNING COLORADO'S ANTI- >GAY RIGHTS LAW, AMERICAN JEWISH CONGRESS SAYS > >BODY: Calling it "a victory for all minorities," The American >Jewish Congress, which opposes discrimination against gay men and >women, announced its support for today's U.S. Supreme Court decision >overturning Colorado's anti-gay rights law. "Although today's >decision does not require states to enact legislation protecting gay >men and women from discrimination," said AJCongress Executive >Director Phil Baum in a statement, "it does prohibit them from >imposing special roadblocks to political efforts to that end." >WASHINGTON, May 20 Declaring that "the political process does not >have to always be right," Baum added, "it must always be equally open >to all." > > The Court was correct, therefore, in overturning the law, Baum >said, because Colorado's statute "sought to freeze the political >debate," rather than permit a full hearing on gay rights legislation. > > > The full text of the statement is as follows: Today's >decision by the U.S. Supreme Court overturning Colorado's anti-gay >rights law is a victory for all minorities. Although today's decision >does not require states to enact legislation protecting gay men and >women from discrimination, it does prohibit them from imposing >special roadblocks to political efforts to that end. The political >process does not have to always be right but it must always be >equally open to all. Colorado's now invalidated initiative sought to >freeze the political debate. > > The American Jewish Congress, founded in 1918 by Rabbi Stephen S. >Wise, Justice Louis D. Brandeis and other distinguished Jews, >specializes in combating all forms of bigotry through law and >legislation. Considered the legal voice of the American Jewish >community, it works to safeguard Jewish interests, protect basic >freedoms enshrined in the American Bill of Rights and to advance the >security of Israel. > > > CONTACT: Stephen Steiner, Director of Communications for >AJCongress, at >212-360-1540 > > Copyright 1996 U.S. Newswire, Inc. > > U.S. Newswire > > > > May 20, 1996 > > >SECTION: NATIONAL DESK > >LENGTH: 480 words > >HEADLINE: ADL: Supreme Court Striking Down Colorado Anti-Gay >Amendment Is Landmark Decision > >CONTACT: Myrna Shinbaum, 212-490-2525, ext. 7747, or Saul Rosenthal, >303-321-7177, both of the Anti-Defamation League > >DATELINE: NEW YORK, May 20 > >BODY: The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) today hailed the U.S. Supreme >Court decision in Romer vs. Evans, striking down Colorado's anti-gay >amendment as a "landmark decision" and "a major victory in the >ongoing struggle against all forms of bigotry and discrimination." >ADL National Chairman David H. Strassler and National Director >Abraham H. Foxman issued the following statement: We are pleased >and gratified that the Supreme Court has rejected the effort to deny >Colorado's gays and lesbians the protection of anti-discrimination >laws. This is a momentous decision of national significance and a >welcome reaffirmation that equal protection means equal protection >for all. Supporters of Colorado's Amendment 2 claimed it was a >neutral law intended to treat gays and lesbians equally with other >citizens and deny them special rights. In fact, this insidious >Amendment sought a special license to discriminate against gays and >to bar them from even being allowed to seek legal protection >available to all other Coloradans. > > Justice Anthony Kennedy, writing for the majority, was right on >target when he noted that "a law declaring that in general it shall >be more difficult for one group of citizens than for all others to >seek aid from the government is itself a denial of equal protection >of the laws in the most literal sense." He also demonstrated an >awareness of the bias underlying this amendment, citing the >"inevitable inference that the disadvantage imposed is born of >animosity toward the class of persons affected." Recognizing the >landmark nature of this decision and particularly its importance for >countless Americans who have been victims of discrimination because >of their sexual orientation, our enthusiasm over the Supreme Court's >decision is marred only by Justice Scalia's unfortunate reference, in >his dissent, to the efforts of a "geographically concentrated and >politically powerful minority" to "undermine" the majority's efforts >to "preserve its view of sexual morality." As the majority ringingly >determined, this is a case about discrimination, not sexual morality. > > > The Anti-Defamation League, founded in 1913, is the world's >leading organization fighting anti-Semitism through programs and >services that counteract hatred, prejudice and bigotry. ># # # > > > >------- End of Forwarded Message > > > > Date: Friday, May 31, 1996 7:46pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Don Msg#: 705870 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: SAME SEX MARRIAGES (4 replies) I "like" Rush's argument against same sex marriages -- he says that if there's legislation allowing it, there will be nothing stopping two brothers marrying. ...then he goes on to say that liberals think that it's okay...(that brothers marry). --- þ MegaMail 2.10 #0:Men and women agree....don't trust a woman! Date: Friday, July 12, 1996 7:40am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 713124 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Danger of DOM ahead (3 replies) This was posted on one of my g/l/b e mail lists: House Opens Debate on Same-Sex Marriages ( 5:11pm EDT, 7/11/96 ) WASHINGTON - The House began debate Thursday on election-year legislation to restrict same-sex marriages, with sponsors warning such unions threatened society and opponents calling the measure an act of bigotry. The "Defense of Marriage Act" would define marriage as the union between a man and a woman, for the first time injecting the federal government into the question of what makes a marriage. It would withhold federal recognition of same-sex marriages, denying Social Security, veterans' and other benefits to such unions. It also says states need not recognize such marriages made in other states, a power opponents of the bill say the states have already. No state now permits same-sex marriages and 11 have banned them, but pending court action in Hawaii could allow such marriages in that state. President Clinton has said he would sign the "Defense of Marriage" bill, while the Christian Coalition wants to make the legislation a major issue in the November elections. Floor debate was dramatic, inflammatory and unusually personal, as openly gay lawmakers spoke of their own relationships to underscore their opposition to the bill. "What are you protecting, what marriage is under attack ... how does the fact that I love another man and live in a committed relationship with him threaten your marriage?" said Massachusetts Rep. Barney Frank, an openly gay lawmaker. Fellow Massachusetts Democrat Gerry Studds, also gay, called his longtime relationship "as caring, as committed ... as that of many members of the House." Bill supporters decried what they called a breakdown of morals in America and said recognition of same-sex unions would open the door to other drastic changes in marriage that could spell the ruin of society. "It is a frontal assault on the institution of marriage and if successful will demolish the institution," said Rep. Steve Largent, an Oklahoma Republican. Largent charged that if same-sex marriages were allowed, society might next condone bigamy and marriages between children and adults. Georgia Republican Bob Barr said the growing influence of homosexuals posed a threat to America. "We have a basic institution ... under direct assault from homosexual extremists across this country," Barr said. "This is an issue that transcends partisan lines, it goes to the heart of a fundamental institution." The House will resume debate on the legislation later Thursday and could vote on it by the end of the day. The Senate held a hearing on a similar measure Thursday but it has not yet come to the Senate floor. ************************************************************************ Date: Monday, August 5, 1996 7:22pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Dna Msg#: 715505 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Vote and watch what happens... (1 reply) As reported in today's (8/5) Daily News, a Republican drinking buddy of Sidney Zion's is having a real guilt trip. It seems that when they told him in 1964, that if he voted for Goldwater, there would be escalation to full scale war, but he didn't listen, voted for Goldwater, and sure enough there was escalation to full scale war in Vietnam. Then in 1992, they told him that if he voted for George Bush, the rich would get richer, the middle class would be screwed, and the poor would be sold out, but he voted for George Bush anyway, and sure enough, since 1992, the rich got richer, the middle class got screwed, and the poor got sold out.... :-) Date: Tuesday, September 17, 1996 7:33am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 718976 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Why straights should care (3 replies) This appeared on Queerlaw. One of the best arguments about why straights should care about DOM. :) Righteousness in defense of marriage STEPHANIE SALTER Examiner columnist. "I'm sorry, Mr. Smith, but I can't issue you and Ms. Jones a marriage license. You are both in violation of several sections of the Defense of Marriage Act." What? We just got the full list of guidelines a month ago. What are you people doing, adding new prohibitions every week? "As a matter of fact, we are. Your U.S. government takes its defense seriously, whether we are protecting our oil interests in the Middle East or our sacred and holy institution of marriage. "Sen. Robert C. Byrd, R-W.Va., laid down the basic principle back in September 1996 when the act passed and then-President Clinton signed it. Sen. Byrd said: Let us defend the oldest institution: the institution of marriage between male and female as set forth in the Holy Bible. Remember?" Of course. But Ms. Jones and I are a heterosexual man and woman, not gay or lesbian. We're both home owners, not renters - you made that a requirement in January 1997, right? We contribute 10 percent of our income to Republican and Democratic candidates, tithe another 10 to our Christian church, and we have the required number of Bibles between us: six. "Well, for starters, Mr. Smith, Ms. Jones, has contributed more than $1,500 to the National Organization for Women." So? "Saint Paul said that wives must be submissive to their husbands. A wife cannot serve two masters, Mr. Smith. The federal government sees NOW as a Godless enemy of the sacred and holy institution of marriage and its most blessed natural fruit, the family. When the Defense of Marriage Act was passed, Sen. Phil Gramm, R-Tex., said: "The traditional family has stood for 5,000 years. Are we so wise today that we are ready to reject 5,000 years of recorded history? I don't think so.' Remember?" It's too bad nobody called Gramm at the time on that arrogant implication. The modern American family unit isn't the only traditional family configuration in 5,000 years of history. "Oh, I believe there were complaints of that sort from the feminists of NOW and other Godless subversives who want to destroy our sacred and holy institution of marriage and family as set forth in the Holy Bible." Look, the Bible is just one of the major holy books in the world. And with our Bible, there are dozens of translations and interpretations of scripture. Taking one version as a literal prescription for federal law is dangerous. The Bible says Jonah spent days in the belly of a whale. You don't believe that is literally true, do you? "Get thee behind me, Satan! Of course I do. That very question was on the civil service polygraph test I had to take to get this job." Look, my fiancee is in the women's room. What if - God, she'll kill me - what if she resigns her membership in NOW and gives $3,000 to, um, the Eagle Forum? "I'm sorry. As I said, you two are in violation of many sections of the Defense of Marriage Act." What else? "Well, you and Ms. Jones are both divorced. The Bible says . . ." Wait a minute. Almost half of U.S. marriages end in divorce. And what about Congress and the White House? Lots of those people are divorced and remarried. "Oh, there is an exemption in the Defense of Marriage Act for Congress, the president and his staff. It's like their immunity from certain kinds of prosecution. Of course, the exemption does not apply to females in Congress or the administration. Ladies have always been held to a higher standard of purity when it comes to the sacred and holy institution of marriage. So it has been for 5,000 years. So it must remain." I'm a glutton for punishment. Tell me: What else disqualifies us? "God forgive you, Mr. Smith. You had a vasectomy last year." How did you know that? "Your medical records were open to this bureau when you applied for a marriage license. We know about Ms. Jones' chlamydia in '95, too. I told you the federal government takes its defense seriously. "Remember, the Defense of Marriage Act was written by Rep. Steve Largent, R-Okla. Gays and lesbians, he pointed out, don't procreate. This is only a logical extension of that thinking. The Bible says that it is better to spill your seed into the belly of a you-know-what than, uh . . ." How could a law that started out just to keep gay men and lesbians from marrying each other have gotten so out of hand? Everybody said it was nothing but election-year political posturing. "I guess everybody was wrong, weren't they, Mr. Smith? The driving force behind the Defense of Marriage Act wasn't politics but what used to be called, the Christian Right," and is now the heart of the federal government. We do not engage in political posturing, sir. We are loyal and ferocious soldiers, engaged in a holy war. As you see, we are winning." ************************************************************************ Date: Wednesday, September 18, 1996 9:47pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 719081 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Republican satire (5 replies) Found this on the queerlaw list. Remember, it's a satire folks. :) >From the NY TIMES op-ed page, July 26, by Daniel Mendelsohn: The startling discovery that affiliation with the Republican party is genetically determined, announced by scientists in the current issue of the journal Nurture, threatens to overshadow the announcement by Government scientists that there might be a gene for homosexuality in men. Reports of the gene that codes for political conservatism, discovered after a long study of quintuplets in Orange County CA, has sent shock waves through medical, political and golfing communities. Psychologists and psychoanalysts have long believed that Republicans' unnatural and frequently unconstitutional tendencies result from unhealthy family life--a remarkably high percentage of Republicans had authoritarian, domineering fathers and emotionally distant mothers who didn't teach them how to be kind and gentle. But biologists have long suspected that conservatism is inherited. "After all" said one author of the Nurture article, "It's quite common for a Republican to have a brother or sister who is a Republican." The finding has been greeted with relief by parents and friends of Republicans, who have tended to blame themselves for the political views of otherwise lovable people--their children, friends and unindicted co-conspirators. One mother, a longtime Democrat, clasped her hands in ecstasy on hearing of the findings. "I just knew it was genetic," she said, seated beside her two sons, both avowed Republicans. "I just knew nobody would actually CHOOSE that lifestyle!" When asked what the Republicans' lifestyle was, she said, "Well, you can just tell from watching TV, like at the convention in Houston: the loud outfits, the flaming xenophobia, the flamboyant demagogy--you know." Both sons said they had suspected their Republicanism from an early age but did not confirm it until in college, when they became convinced it wasn't just a phase they were going through. Despite the near certainty of the medical community about Republicanism's genetic origins, troubling issues remain. The Nurture article offered no response to the suggestion that the startlingly high incidence of Republicanism among siblings could result from the fact that they share not only genes but also psychological and emotional attitudes, being the products of the same parents and family dynamics. And it remains to be explained why so many avowed Democrats are known to vote Republican occasionally--or at least known to fantasize about doing so. Polls show that at least three out of five Democrats admit to having had a Republican experience. In well-adjusted people, however, this experimentation rarely outlasts adolescence. Surprisingly, some Republican activists hail the findings as a step forward rather than as an invitation to more conservophobia. They argue that since Republicans didn't "choose" their unwholesome life style any more than someone "chooses" to have a ski-jump nose, they shouldn't be denied civil rights to which normal people are entitled. Other Republicans, recalling 19th century scientific studies that "proved" the mental inferiority of blacks, find the frenzied search for the biological cause of Republicanism pointless if not downright sinister. But for most real Americans, the discovery opens a window on a brighter tomorrow. In a few years, gene therapy could eradicate Republicanism altogether. If conservatism is not the result of sheer orneriness (as many suspect) but is something Republicans can't help and probably don't even like, there's no reason why we shouldn't tolerate Republicans in the military or even high elected office--provided they don't flaunt their political beliefs. Date: Wednesday, September 25, 1996 10:37pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 719528 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Common Sense, dead or not? (6 replies) By now, I believe you all have heard about the six year old boy who was suspended from school for kissing a class mate (girl) on the cheek. Excuse me but, is this totally crazy or what? I don't see any commons sense in this. I can understand if he touched her in an wrong way but he didn't, all he did was give her a little kiss as a token of friendship! Forgive my ranting but that drives me up a wall!!!!!! Nightbird Date: Monday, October 14, 1996 9:22pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 720713 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Gun control (again) (2 replies) I picked these up, and I figured they would raise the average blood pressure around here.... Have fun. ------------------- "The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by doing so." -- Adolf Hitler, Edict of 18 March 1939 "Germans who wish to use firearms should join the SS or the SA - ordinary citizens don't need guns, as their having guns doesn't serve the State." - Heinrich Himmler "All military type firearms are to be handed in immediately ... The SS, SA and Stahlhelm give every respectable German man the opportunity of campaigning with them. Therefore anyone who does not belong to one of the above named organizations and who unjustifiably nevertheless keeps his weapon ... must be regarded as an enemy of the national government." - SA Oberfuhrer of Bad Tolz, March, 1933. "Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." -- Mahatma Ghandi "This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!" - Adolf Hitler 1935 'Berlin Daily' (Loose English Translation) April -- 15th, 1935 Page 3 Article 2 --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Saturday, November 2, 1996 7:42am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 722007 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Threat to data bases File: THREAT.TXT Ok, Deb and Ed just sent me an e mail message that I screwed up when I tried to attach a message the other day concerning the threat posed to data bases by corporations trying to enforce copywrite claims. So here it is, I hope. Date: Saturday, November 16, 1996 6:40pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Trapper Msg#: 723020 To: Editor *EXEMPT* Re: Personal responsibility (Reply to #722892, Reply to #722882, Reply to #722877, R*) (3 replies) Very well put. I am visually impaired and hold down a job. It doesn't pay much but I am out working not depending on the city to pay my way. Its a tough fight but no one said life was going to be easy. If you put your mind to it you can do just about anything. Date: Tuesday, December 3, 1996 8:25pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 723719 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Hawaii Decision (3 replies) In case people haven't heard the news yet the Court in Hawaii has ruled in favor of same sex marriages. Now, of course, there will be the inevitable challenge to DOMA in the Federal courts from g/l couples who seek to wed under Hawaii's law. Story appears below. LAMBDA LEGAL DEFENSE AND EDUCATION FUND NEWS RELEASE FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Tuesday, December 3, 1996 Contact: Peg Byron 212-995-9475, 800-314-5149 pager Evan Wolfson 212-995-8986 Dan Foley 808-526-9500 Hawaii Court: Lesbian & Gay Couples Should Be Allowed To Marry Lambda Wins Historic Ruling Against Discrimination in Civil Marriage Law (HONOLULU & NEW YORK, December 3, 1996) For the first time in U.S. history a state court ruled Tuesday that civil marriage law cannot discriminate against lesbian and gay couples. A Hawaii court ruled in the case brought by Honolulu civil rights lawyer Dan Foley and Lambda Legal Defense and Education Fund on behalf of three lesbian and gay couples. "This is a historic moment for lesbians and gay men," said Lambda Marriage Project Director Evan Wolfson, who with Foley is co-counsel in the case, Baehr v. Miike, tried in Honolulu this fall. "When required at our trial to justify its discriminatory marriage law, the government couldn't do it. The court today agreed that there is no compelling or logical reason for discriminating against lesbian and gay couples," Wolfson said. Speaking from Lambda's New York headquarters, Wolfson said, "This case made a major breakthrough toward ending second-class status for gay families. This decision marks the beginning of the end to sex discrimination in marriage." Lambda is spearheading a national movement to end sex discrimination in civil marriage, and to protect lesbian and gay families. From Honolulu, Foley, who litigated Baehr v. Miike from its earliest stages, said, "Judge Kevin Chang made the only decision that he could, given the evidence in this case. This decision is not only historic, but of vital personal consequence to the couples who want to get married." Foley added, "Now that the court has ruled, the state should immediately issue civil marriage licenses to the couples in this case." Foley, through the Hawaii Equal Rights Marriage Project, and Wolfson presented the case for two lesbian couples and one gay male couple seeking civil marriage licenses in Hawaii. The three couples, Ninia Baehr and Genora Dancel, Pat Lagon and Joseph Melillo, and Antoinette Pregil and Tammy Rodrigues were denied marriage licenses by the state Department of Health in late 1990. In 1991, they jointly filed a lawsuit alleging the denial was unconstitutional and eventually the case was appealed to the Hawaii Supreme Court. In 1993, the state Supreme Court ruled that, under Hawaii's Constitution, allowing civil marriage licenses only for opposite-sex couples and not for same-sex couples is sex discrimination. The court ordered the state to show what "compelling" interest justifies such discrimination in civil marriage. Judge Chang of the First Circuit Court of Hawaii heard the case at a nine-day, bench trial, September 10-20. Deputy state Attorney General Rich Eichor argued on behalf of Director Lawrence Miike of the state Department of Health, which has jurisdiction over marriage licenses. Lambda Executive Director Kevin Cathcart said, "This victory is important progress for the civil rights of lesbians and men in Hawaii and throughout the country. Just as the legal protections and recognition that come with civil marriage should be available to everyone regardless of race, religion, and ethnicity, they should be available to everyone regardless of sex or sexual orientation." Cathcart added, "Just a generation ago, for example, courts ended state discrimination against marriages between people of different races. Today's ruling takes a similar step toward ending state discrimination against the marriages of lesbian and gay couples." Two of the plaintiffs in the landmark case, Ninia Baehr and Genora Dancel, who now live in Baltimore, quickly stated their exuberance with the ruling. "Many people around the country helped break through this wall of discrimination. While we face much more work ahead to secure this right nationally, Ninia and I are deeply honored to be part of today's victory," Dancel said. "Our love made it possible for me and Genora to get through this long legal fight," Baehr said. "I'm looking forward to our love getting us to our wedding on a mountain slope in Maui," she said. Lambda Legal Director Beatrice Dohrn said. "Without civil marriage, gay couples often face painful, difficult situations, like being barred from the hospital bedside of a partner in a medical emergency. Lesbian and gay couples have had no access to the legal, economic, and practical protections of civil marriage that non-gay couples can take for granted." Other protections withheld from gay couples include access to family health coverage, immigration, divorce, and inheritance rights. Lesbians and gay men also are denied protection for their children and may lose custody when their artner dies. Dohrn said, "Our society is structured so that hundreds of legal obligations and protections are available only through civil marriage. It's time the law stopped saying no' to those who want and need to say I do.' The choice of whether or not two people get married belongs to the couple, not the state." The prospect of ending marriage discrimination against same-sex couples has fueled recent backlash campaigns by the religious right to promote state and federal anti-marriage legislation like the federal Defense of Marriage Act, Wolfson said. He noted that DOMA does not ban marriages for gay couples but would discriminate against legally married gay couples by allowing federal protections and benefits only for heterosexual married couples. Wolfson said, "The absurdly named Defense of Marriage' Act, like the 16 state bills passed against equal marriage rights for lesbians and gay men, is unconstitutional and will be defeated. State by state, court by court, we will put an end to this illogical and cruel discrimination." Lambda is the oldest and largest legal organization dedicated to the civil rights of lesbians, gay men, and people with AIDS and HIV. Date: Saturday, December 7, 1996 1:31pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 723913 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Bill of Righst (1 reply) I picked this up off the net. I spent some time deciding whether it belonged here or in /Jokes. The more I read it, the more it belonged here. Bill of No Rights We, the sensible of the United States, in an attempt to help everyone get along, restore some semblance of justice, avoid any more riots, keep our nation safe, promote positive behavior and secure the blessings of debt-free liberty to ourselves and our great-great-great grandchildren, hereby try one more time to ordain and establish some common sense guidelines for the terminally whiny, guilt-ridden delusional, and other liberal, commie, pinko bedwetters. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that a whole lot of people were confused by the Bill of Rights and are so dim that they require a Bill of No Rights. You do not have the right to a new car, big-screen color TV or any other form of wealth. More power to you if you can legally acquire them, but no one is guaranteeing anything. You do not have the right to never be offended. This country is based on freedom, and that means freedom for everyone -- not just you! You may leave the room, turn the channel, express a different opinion, etc., but the world is full of idiots, and probably always will be. You do not have the right to be free from harm. If you stick a screwdriver in your eye, learn to be more careful, do not expect the tool manufacturer to make you and all of your relatives independently wealthy. You do not have the right to free food and housing. Americans are the most charitable people to be found, and will gladly help anyone in need, but we are quickly growing weary of subsidizing generation after generation of professional couch potatoes who achieve nothing more than the creation of another generation of professional couch potatoes. You do not have the right to free health care. That would be nice, but from the looks of public housing, we're just not interested in public health care. You do not have the right to physically harm other people. If you kidnap, rape, intentionally maim or kill someone, don't be surprised if the rest of us get together and kill you. You do not have the right to the possessions of others. If you rob, cheat, or coerce away the goods or services of other citizens, don't be surprised if the rest of us get together and lock you away in a place where you still won't have the right to a big-screen color TV or a life of leisure. You do not have the right to demand that our children risk their lives in foreign wars to soothe your aching conscience. We hate oppressive governments and won't lift a finger to stop you from going to fight if you'd like. However, we do not enjoy parenting the entire world and do not want to spend so much of our time battling each and every little tyrant with a military uniform and a funny hat. You do not have the right to a job. All of us sure want you to have one, and will gladly help you along in hard times, but we expect you to take advantage of the opportunities in education and vocational training laid before you to make yourself useful. You do not have the right to happiness. Being an American means that you have the right to pursue happiness -- which, by the way, is a lot easier if you are unencumbered by an overabundance of idiotic laws created by those around you who were confused by the Bill of Rights.  --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Wednesday, December 25, 1996 11:46am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Walts Msg#: 724619 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Christmas Top 10 ROTFLMAO [sorta] - WaltS -------------------- From: redwood@csnet.net Date: Wed, 25 Dec 96 00:49:05 Subject: Very Funny Xmas Reading! _____________________________________ _________| |________ \ | The Top Five List | / \ | www.topfive.com | / \ | | / \ | Sponsored by Windows Sources | / > | www.winsources.com | < / | | \ / | December 24, 1996 | \ / |_____________________________________| \ /___________) (__________\ The Top 16 Signs Christmas Has Become Too Commercial 16> You don't recall that line from It's A Wonderful Life saying, "Every time a cash register rings, a customer enjoys never-before year-end savings at Try-N-Save!" 15> Your kid makes a fortune trading in "Elmo futures." 14> Salad Shooter in hand, Michael Jordan shows up as the honorary "4th wise man" in new nativity scenes. 13> The impossible-to-get "Tickle Me Jesus." 12> Santa's Coyote/Ford-powered sleigh came in second in this year's Indy 500. 11> Wise Men now arrive carrying Faux Gold, The Clapper and a Chia Pet. 10> WWF presents "Oh, Holy Night" Cage Match pitting The Three Wise Men against Jumping Joseph, Manic Mary and the Dangerous Manger Boy! 9> Santa goes to Yankees in blockbuster trade for the slightly heavier Cecil Fielder. 8> Rudolph demands Holiday Pay or he walks. 7> Santa's North Pole operation announces a corporate downsizing amidst rumors that the Elf Division will be sold off to Keebler. 6> Reindeer rights purchase by Disney results in odd-sounding: "On Doc, on Happy, on Grumpy, on Sneezy. Now Bashful, now Dopey, now Eisner and Sleepy." 5> $, the holiday formerly known as Christmas. 4> Rather large Nike logo emblazoned across His Holiness's pointy hat during Midnight Mass at St. Peter's. 3> The Baby GAP's line of Swaddling Clothes(TM) 2> Michael Jackson buys all rights to the phrase "Ho, Ho, Ho" and an injunction limits Santa to "a bemused facial expression and laughter not exceeding two syllables." And the Number 1 Sign Christmas Has Become Far Too Commercial... 1> Image of Virgin Mary appears in Dennis Rodman's hair! [ This list copyright 1996 by Chris White and Ziff-Davis ] [ *To forward or repost, you must include this section.* ] [ The Top Five List top5@walrus.com www.topfive.com ] ============================================================ David W. Lawrence New Jersey PC User Group PC Games Reviewer - Monthly Columnist "Redwood's Reviews - PC Games & Thrills" Chair, "PC Games & Thrills" SIG New Jersey PC User Group 1.) PC Warehouse Superstore, Rochelle Park, NJ 2.) Scheduled monthly meetings held on second Friday nights. 3.) NJPCUG Members Only. Sorry,No Guests. 4.) From 7:30 to 8:30PM. 5.) RSVP must be sent to: redwood@csnet.net --------------------------------------------- E-mail: redwood@csnet.net Net Web Site: http://www.csnet.net/njpcug/ ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------- Today's Date: 12/25/96 Today's Time: 12:49:05 AM ------------------------------------- ******SEE YOU SOON - UNTIL THEN HAVE FUN******* END OF MESSAGE Date: Thursday, November 14, 1996 8:26pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Indranie Msg#: 725272 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Peace in the middle ease (Copy by Lythande) (1 reply) As President Clinton was walking on a beach one day, his foot tripped on a partially buried bottle. Picking it up, Bill rubbed it to expose the label. Suddenly, a cloud poured from the bottle and a huge genie appeared. "Thank you, oh thank you for saving me from the prison I have been in. I've been in there for hundreds of years, yes, hundreds of years. As an expression of my overwhelming gratitude, I will grant you one wish." Mr. Clinton, being a world leader, knew exactly what to ask for. "Peace in the Middle East!" he quickly replied. The genie seemed confused. "Middle East, Middle East...I can't seem to remember. Can you help me out a little?" The President quickly had a world map brought over and he carefully points out the affected area of the globe, recounting briefly the long-standing geopolitical instability of the area. The genie's eyes widen and he says, "Oh yeah, now I remember. That's a tough one. You know, they have been fighting there, quite literally, for over a millennia. I hate to admit it, but I think that's more than I can handle, I'm sorry. Can you wish for something else?" Clinton, obviously crestfallen at such a missed opportunity, could only think of one other wish. "Could you make the American people like my wife?" The genie pauses, grimaces and says, "Let me see that map again!" Date: Wednesday, January 8, 1997 12:17pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 725711 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Proof at last! (1 reply) Given: Barney is a cute purple dinosaur Prove: Barney is Satan Step 1: The Romans had no letter "U" so they used "V'' instead for printing. Therefore, the Roman representation for Barney would be CVTE PVRPLE DINOSAVR Step 2: Taking CVTE PVRPLE DINOSAVR, and extracting the Roman neumerals, we have: C V V L D I V Step 3: The decimal equivalent of these Roman neumerals would be: 100 5 5 50 500 1 5 Step 4: Adding these numbers together would produce: 666 Step 5: 666 is the number of the beast Therefore: Barney is Satan --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Sunday, January 19, 1997 6:27pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 727071 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: The Inaugural (3 replies) Does it bother anyone other than me that $30,000,000 of your money and mine is being spent on this weekend's inauguration? All the damned thing requires is a judge and a witness or two. I think that works out to a dime for every man woman and child in the US. Personally, I'd rather have the dime. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Thursday, January 23, 1997 11:04am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 727381 To: Don *EXEMPT* Re: $50 hammers (Reply to #727341, Reply to #727214, Reply to #727201, R*) (1 reply) D >³EE> I used to be upset about things like $50 hammers. Then one day I D >³EE> for the US Government, and ever since I've wondered how the poor D >³EE> a profit, charging ONLY $50 for those hammers. D >ÔÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ D > D > How's that....I don't get it? Do you have any idea what the government puts you through to do business with them? Most of the safeguards are to protect the government from their own employees more than the vendors. Here's one story, a beaut. We bid a job for a county in Florida. In order to BID the job, we had to submit a 15% cash bond WITH the bid. (That's right. We had to pay THEM to bid the job.) If you get the job, you have to post a 100% cash bond. The clock starts running the day you get the award. You forfeit 1% of the bond for each day you are late. By the way, the clock starts with the award, NOT when you are notified. So we bid the job, and submitted the 15% bond. The bid was so godawful complicated it took almost 10 days to prepare the response. (3 days is more normal.) There were a half dozen bidders so the government had a nice nestegg while they thought about it. As part of the bidding process, we had to build a sample system and prove that our hardware was compatable with theirs. (Understand know that we are talking computers, IBM, and telephones here. There is a limit to how incompatable you can get.) OK... we built a sample system, flew it down to Florida, sent two guys there for a weekend there, proved it worked. Sat through endless meetings in which this idiot made statements about how he was just "protecting the people of the great state of Florida". Finally.... call it six months (during which the government is sitting on our money and everyone else's money, and collecting interest), we get the job. GO! Not quite. One of the other vendors sued the government because one of the bidders was Univac and Univac had business interests in South Africa and they claimed they should have been excluded. Since we had the award, we couldn't withdraw without losing the bond. We just had to wait. They also didn't return anyone else's money since the bidding was still technically open. Overall, they screwed around for almost two years, and then decided not to do the job. So they returned the money. NOT! They notfied us that we could file a request for a refund! Which took another 3-4 months to process. Figure that overall the government collected almost $150,000 in bonds, that sat in the bank for over two years, collecting interest, and then didn't do the job. Throw in the fact that the bid was so horribly complex to respond to, the requirement to build an entire system, fly it down to Florida, WITH TWO PEOPLE, all as part of the bid, and you have quite an up front cost. Then, once the job begins, if it does, all logic ceases. They tend to ask you to "build a hammer to custom spec" where you could normally buy one for $3. They frequently mandate that you only work on the project 40 hours a week and subscribe to all the benefits that only a government can afford. They are totally inflexible, even when its to their benefit. Trying to get an answer out of them other than 8AM-4PM (8AM-3PM during the summer), minus lunch, Mon-Fri is impossible. Quite honestly, it costs 2-3 times as much to provide a system to a government agency as it does to a private corporation. Add on top of that they ask for products to be built that could be purchased at a quarter of the price, and you begin to see what I'm saying. There is no question that there is hanky panky with many government suppliers. But let me tell you, they are the worst customers in the world. The Feds are actually the best of the lot. As you move down through smaller governments, it gets worse. The states are worse, the counties worse still. I've never had the stomach to do business with the city. Its more than my emotions could handle. So on top of everything else, you get honest suppliers who just don't want to do business with the government, and VOILA! $50 hammers. I wish I could say this tale of woe was unusual. Its not. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Thursday, January 30, 1997 8:05pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Rand Msg#: 729222 To: Vida *EXEMPT* Re: NJ DOMA (Reply to #729197, Reply to #729184, Reply to #729156, R*) (1 reply) In a message dated 01-30-97 Vida wrote to Rand : V> I think my friend Liv would definitely like to outlaw people from V> eating meat! :) V> She just realizes that she is in the minority, so she is powerless to V> do so. She even tolerates me ordering meat or fish when we go out to V> dinner together...she knows that we might never get to see each other V> if I couldn't eat what I like. (I am much too much of a foodie to V> deprive myself of meat or fish! ) Well, so, there you are. And I'm willing to wager that Liv simply can't understand why people would want to outlaw same-sex marriages. The point is that acceptance is irrelevant. I'm not going to try to sell Liv on the benefits of a meat eating diet. (Though my future father-in-law is a meat purveyor, so I'm very pro that!) It's enough that Liv leaves you the hell alone to eat what you want. That's the fight, not the fight for "acceptance." I would wager that most Americans do not think that same-sex marriage is proper or "normal." But the "normality" of it isn't the issue. The issue is whether you should be permitted to engage in activity that others wouldn't engage in, and think is wrong. And so long as you're not forcing others to do it, you absolutely should. All humans have a tendency toward fascism. What I mean by that is that since each of us knows that we are right, we think everybody should do the same, etc. For example, I know that if everybody just did and believed exactly what I told them to, the world would be a place of peace, love and harmony, everyone would be happy and satisfied, and DC Cablevision would finally get TV Land and Comedy Central. That last point, incidentally, is very important to me. Regardless, the majesty and the brilliance of this country is that not everybody has to do or believe as I do. And to tell you the truth, I wouldn't want it. (Except, of course, for the DC Cablevision part.) The hypocrisy, on both the Left and the Right, is that each has special activities that they think should be free, and others that they think should be government-enforced. The Left is convinced that people should be free to burn the flag, and pee on a cross, but they think that the right to what you want with your own property is outmoded, and people should be forced to give their money to subsidize a urine-soaked cross. The Right, on the other hand, wants to take not quite so much of my stuff, but is very concerned about whose body parts go where, among consenting adults. Don't seek "acceptance." Who cares. So long as they keep their hands to themselves, let 'em think what they want. Fight for the right to be left the hell alone. And be consistent about it. TANSTAAFL, RAND --- * TIMM 1.3 * I'm pro-choice on everything! Date: Friday, February 28, 1997 9:11pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Sysop Msg#: 730435 To: Des *EXEMPT* Re: Free Speech has been repealed? File: MANNERS.TXT (Reply to #730401, Reply to #730349, Reply to #730201, R*) (1 reply) DE>I agree it wouldd be a terrible thing if the government regulated the DE>content here. DE>The question is should a sysop be allowed to regulate the content or DE>ability of people to logon to their board if they disagree with a persons DE>views? Is that just as terrible as the governemnt regulating content? DE>... nfx v2.4 [C0000] http://www.westonia.com/blueview/ Ah, I was wondering when you would get to the point. First let me state that After Hours does not regulate any users messages or their ability to log on because we don't agree with their views. You will find a wide range of viewpoints on here, some of which we may not personally agree with. I will admit, though, that over the years we have suspended the accounts of 2 or 3 users who made repeated personal attacks on other users, and who would not stop even after being asked to. Having said that, I will answer yes, a sysop should be allowed to regulate his system in any way he sees fit. Some sysops may choose to let anarchy reign, some may aggressively moderate all content, and some may just be looking for an intelligent, mature audience. Remember, a privately run system is not the government, so free speech issues do not apply. Free speech specifically deals with government suppression of speech. Most systems employ a degree of moderation in that they have a specific target audience. Some systems may be geared towards sports, computer games, or sex, and as such try to cultivate their audience accordingly. Heck, there are even systems that cultivate morons as their audience. We just happen to be looking for an intelligent, articulate user-base. It doesn't matter what your specific views are, but the ability to express them is highly desirable. For good examples of what results when anarchy reigns, you might check out such usenet forums as alt.sex or alt.duck.quack.quack.quack. Even a quick browse of newgroups like these will show nothing but childish posts, insults, 900 number ads, and other assorted garbage. Oh, one last thing, since I just mentioned the net. I noticed that your tag line lists a web address: http://www.westonia.com/blueview/ . There doesn't seem to be any html at that address, I thought I might find your web page there. But while I was there, I decided to check out the host, westonia.com, apparently run by someone named Des...hmmm. Anyway, there was some interesting text on the pages, and I've taken the liberty of importing some of the more interesting text right into this message. I've even attached their entire "Online Etiquette" document right to this message in case anyone would like to see the excerpts in their original context. ************************************************** In the text below, take particular note of item #3 My comments will continue at the end of this message ************************************************** Westonia Bulletin Board System: Introduction Here at the Westonia BBS, we have a few rules here to make all of your stays online more pleasant for all of us: 1.Use REAL NAME's ONLY! Since we have messages that are echoed worldwide, it is necessary for you to use real names! If you logged on with a name other than your REAL NAME, please log off now and log back on under your correct name. 2.We will not allow, in any way, uploaded files that seem to be pirated or non-shareware! 3.In no way may you insult any fellow BBS'ers. 4.Anyone found releasing viruses or doing any malicious acts will be locked out of the board FOREVER! *** W A R N I N G *** If any of these rules are broken, you'll be locked out of the board until further notice, and it is possible that you could be locked out FOREVER! Click here to get back to our home page. Please e-mail any questions, comments, and / or suggestions to: des@westonia.co m Copyright c 1995-1996, Westonia Computer Systems of Canada. ********************************************************* Here are a couple of items from their etiquette document My comments continue at the bottom ********************************************************* Westonia Bulletin Board System: On-line Etiquette The following are a few points of general BBS etiquette. If you wish to maintain your welcome on whatever system you happen to call, it will be to your advantage to observe these few rules. (SYSOPS - feel free to download this & display it on your BBS) 11.WATCH YOUR LANGUAGE - (English, what's yours?) Don't be personally abusive. It doesn't matter whether you like a Sysop or think he's a jerk. The fact remains that he has a large investment in making his computer available, usually out of the goodness of his heart. If you don't like a Sysop or his system, just remember that you can change the channel any time you want. Besides, whether you are aware of it or not, if you make yourself enough of an annoyance to any Sysop, he may take the time to trace you down and you just might find a large crimp in your lifestyle of modemus addictus. 12.WHO OWNS THIS PLACE? - Keep firmly in mind that you are a guest on any BBS you happen to call. Don't think that logging on is one of your basic human rights. Every person that has ever put a computer system online for the use of other people has spent a lot of time and money to do so. While he does not expect nonstop pats on the back, it seems reasonable that he should at least be able to expect fair treatment from his callers. This includes following any of the rules for system use he has laid out without grumbling about it. Every Sysop has his own idea of how he wants his system to be run. It is really none of your business why he wants to run it the way he does. Your business is to either abide by what he says, or call some other BBS where you feel that you can obey the rules. ********************************************************* OK, that's the end of the quoting, this is now me again. What was even more interesting is that this Westonia BBS is a PAY system. And if you abuse your membership there, you get deleted with no refund. I guess I've gotten a little sidetracked, but I certainly hope that I've answered your question. your friendly sysop, Ed Date: Wednesday, March 12, 1997 6:26pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Rand Msg#: 731140 To: Steve Flur *EXEMPT* Re: Late term abortions (Reply to #731093, Reply to #730971, Reply to #730958, R*) (1 reply) In a message dated 03-12-97 Steve Flur wrote to Editor : ED>Are you listening? I am saying that the person who made all the statements ED>about "only used when the life of the mother was endangered.... etc" said ED>that his statements on the topic were bullshit. SF> That is one person whose "famous" Nightline statements were never SF> broadcasted, and whose "credentials" are marginal at best. To be accurate, I'm posting an excerpt from the U.S. News & World Report of March 10, 1997. "...Astonishingly, most of the misinformation was an attempt to deny facts already put on the record by the two doctors best known for performing partial-birth abortions: Dr. Martin Haskell, owner of two Ohio abortion clinics, and the late Dr. James McMahon of Los Angeles. " In the early days of the controversy, both spoke with almost brutal candor about what they were doing. Haskell provided a vivid and detailed description of the operation, which became the basis of the now famous drawings of a baby halfway down the birth canal being stabbed in the skull with surgical scissors. Haskell said these drawings were accurate "from a technical point of view." But they were later repeatedly attacked by abortion activists as misleading. " McMahon said he had moral compunctions about the operation and considered the fetus to be a child at 20 weeks. In papers given to Congress, he made clear that he performed partial-birth procedures during all 40 weeks of pregnancy for a long litany of reasons, including cleft lip, maternal depression, and what he called "pediatric indications," which, he explained to a congressional aide, meant that the mother-to-be was very young. Haskell, too, acknowledged that most of his partial-birth abortions were elective and that he stopped doing them at about 25 weeks. In a taped interview, Haskell told the American Medical News that the fetus was usually alive when the stabbing and brain suction took place. (Q: Let's talk first about whether or not the fetus is dead beforehand. Haskell: No, it's not. No, it's really not.) " Then, McMahon died, Haskell went into seclusion, and the abortion activists circled the wagons. Though the McMahon-Haskell testimony showed a great many procedures done on healthy mothers with healthy fetuses, the chorus of activists said otherwise. "It's not only a myth, it's a lie" that these abortions were done for minor defects such as cleft palates, said Kate Michelman of the National Abortion and Reproductive Rights Action League. Planned Parenthood said the procedure "is extremely rare and done only in cases when the woman's life is in danger or in cases of extreme fetal abnormality." Michelman made similar statements over and over, and much of the media fell into line. National Public Radio announced, for instance, that "Doctors resort to this rare procedure only for late-term abortions if the fetuses have severe abnormalities and no chance of survival." All untrue and well known inside the movement. " Activists began to insist that the fetus can't feel pain because anesthesia kills it peacefully. (Anesthesia "causes fetal demise," said Michelman. "The fetus dies of an overdose of anesthesia given to the mother intravenously," said Planned Parenthood.) But the American Society of Anesthesiologists debunked this claim as "entirely inaccurate."" The truth is that if you are going to kill a late term fetus, it's tough to say that one method is okay, and one isn't. TANSTAAFL, Rand --- * TIMM 1.3 * There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. Date: Wednesday, April 2, 1997 9:43pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Rand Msg#: 732746 To: *ALL* *EXEMPT* Re: The grasshopper & the ant (1 reply) Subject: The grasshopper & the ant/Clinton edition I got this in an email list -- Thought it was funny... THE GRASSHOPPER & THE ANT ========================= The Original Version: The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper thinks he's a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away. Come winter, the ant is warm and well fed. The grasshopper has no food or shelter so he dies out in the cold. The New Liberal Version: It starts out the same, but when winter comes, the shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and demands to know why the ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while others are cold and starving. CBS, NBC, ABC and CNN show up and provide pictures of the shivering grasshopper next to film of the ant in his comfortable home with a table filled with food. America is stunned by the sharp contrast. How can it be that, in a country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so? Then a representative of the NAAGB (The National Association for the Advancement of Green Bugs) shows up on NightLine and charges the ant with "Green Bias" and makes the case that the grasshopper is the victim of 30 million years of greenism. Kermit the frog appears on Oprah with the grasshopper, and everybody cries when he sings "It's Not Easy Being Green." Bill and Hillary Clinton make a special guest appearance on the CBS Evening News and tell a concerned Dan Rather that they will do everything they can for the grasshopper who has been denied the prosperity he deserves by those who benefited unfairly during the Reagan summers, or as Bill refers to it, the "Temperatures of the 80's". Richard Gephardt exclaims in an interview with Peter Jennings that the Ant has gotten rich off the "back of the grasshopper", and calls for an immediate tax hike on the Ant to make him pay his "fair share". Finally the EEOC drafts the "Economic Equity and Anti-Greenism Act", RETROACTIVE to the beginning of the summer. The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate number of green bugs and, having nothing left to pay his retroactive taxes, his home is confiscated by the government. Hillary gets her old law firm to represent the grasshopper in a defamation suit against the ant, and the case is tried before a panel of federal judges that Bill appointed from a list of single-parent welfare moms who can only hear cases on Thursday afternoon between 1:30 and 3:00 PM when there are no talk shows scheduled. The ant loses the case. The story ends as we see the grasshopper finishing up the last bits of the ant's food while the government house he's in - which just happens to be the ant's old house - crumbles around him since he doesn't know how to maintain it. The ant has disappeared in the snow. And on the TV, which the grasshopper bought by selling most of the ant's food, they are showing Bill Clinton standing before a wildly applauding group of Democrats announcing that a new era of "Fairness" has dawned in America. --- * TIMM 1.3 * There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. Date: Wednesday, April 9, 1997 1:39am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Ersatz Msg#: 733102 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Interesting (3 replies) Don't believe the people who run this board when they say that they haven't kicked anyone (or only one person) off the board. I personally know that they kicked off the following users, and I've heard from reliable sources that there have been others: Quack 323641 Big John Another user whose name escapes me. All these people did was exercise their free speech in the Freespeech (alleged) forum. The nuts who run this board just cant stand to hear reason. Im sure that I too will be expelled from this board. I challenge the sysops not to expell me but to answer my charges. I know you wont because you are weak willed and weak minded. Date: Wednesday, April 9, 1997 1:43am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Ersatz Msg#: 733103 To: Rand *EXEMPT* Re: Capitalism vs. Socialism (Reply to #733083, Reply to #733060, Reply to #733023, R*) Rand: Don't waste your time trying to reason with the morons who run this board. They are stupid, insane (literally), and don't believe anyone has a right to freespeech, except themselves. It's quite funny that they say that the government has the right to regulate people's behaviour since they are all perverts (its true). Date: Wednesday, April 9, 1997 6:41pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 733150 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Barbie variations (1 reply) Found this on one of my feminist e mail lists, and thought it was amusing. Remember folks, it is meant to be a joke. >New from MATTEL > >Sister Mary Barbie: >This spiritual Barbie comes with jointed knees and neck for genuflecting and >praying, mini rosary beads, a mini bible and a black sequined nun's habit >(after all, she's still Barbie). Pull the string on her back and she says >nothing because she has taken a vow of silence. > >Admin Barbie: >Works twenty hour days for little pay (80% of Admin Ken's salary), and is the >lowest on the totem pole despite being the one that actually runs the group. >Comes with mini laptop. Pull the string on her back and she'll schedule a >meeting with your other dolls, replace the toner cartridge in the laser >printer, coordinate a re-org and a move, and order airline tickets for Admin >Ken. > >Temp Barbie: >This smartly dressed, intelligent, hard-working and enthusiastic Barbie is >ready to go right out of the box, but usually goes untouched for at least a >day while everyone tries to figure out why they bought her. Pull the string >on her back and she'll stuff envelopes indefinitely, all the while wondering >why she got a liberal arts degree. Comes with mini resume and mini filing >cabinet filled with the past five years worth of US Tax Code revisions which >need to be collated. > >Ripped-Off-In-The-Divorce-Settlement Barbie: >Pull the string on her back and she unloads a torrent of insults and death >threats for her ex's new wife. Comes with a hatred for all men, and a Malibu >Barbie tan (except for a white band on the ring finger of her left hand). > >Twelve-Step Barbie: >Pull the string on her back and she says, "Hi, I'm Barbie and I'm an >alcoholic." Comes with a "One Day at a Time" bumper sticker, a 30-day >chip and a pack of smokes. > >Birkenstock Barbie: >Finally, a Barbie doll with horizontal feet and comfortable sandals. Made >from recycled materials. > >Bite-The-Bullet Barbie: >An anthropologist Barbie with pith helmet, camera, detachable limbs, fake >blood and the ability to perform surgery on herself in the Outback. > >Blue Collar Barbie: >Comes with overalls, protective goggles, lunch pail, UAW membership, pamphlet >on union-organizing and pay scales for women as compared to men. Waitressing >outfits and cashier's aprons may be purchased separately for Barbies who are >holding down second jobs in order to make ends meet. > >Homegirl Barbie: >Truly a fly Barbie in midriff-baring shirt and baggy jeans. Comes with gold >jewelry, hip-hop accessories and plenty of attitude. Pull cord and she says >things like "I don't think so," "Dang, get outta my face," and >"You go, girl." Teaches girls not to take crap from men. > >Transgender Barbie: >Formerly known as G.I. Joe. > >Dinner Roll Barbie: >A Barbie with multiple love handles, double chin, a real curvy belly, and >voluminous thighs to show girls that voluptuousness is also beautiful. Comes >with a miniature basket of dinner rolls, bucket o' fried chicken, tiny >Entenmann's walnut ring, a brick of Dreyer's ice cream, three bags of potato >chips, a t-shirt reading "Only the Weak Don't Eat", and, of course, an >appetite. > Date: Thursday, April 17, 1997 3:03am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Rand Msg#: 733603 To: Vida *EXEMPT* Re: Capitalism vs. Soci [1/2] (Reply to #733529, Reply to #733521, Reply to #733167, R*) I thought this was a pretty good speech about libertarianism. It was delivered by P.J. O'Rourke at a dinner celebrating the opening of the new Cato Institute Building, Washington, D.C. on May 6, 1993, and was reprinted in O'Rourke's book "Age and Guile Beat Youth, Innocence, and a Bad Haircut." -=-=-=-=-=-=- The Cato Institute has an unusual political cause -- which is no political cause whatsoever. We are here tonight to dedicate ourselves to that cause, to dedicate ourselves, in other words, to... nothing. We have no ideology, no agenda, no catechism, no dialectic, no plan for humanity. We have no "vision thing," as our ex-president would say, or, as our current president would say, we have no Hillary. All we have is the belief that people should do what people want to do, unless it causes harm to other people. And that had better be clear and provable harm. No nonsense about secondhand smoke or hurtful, insensitive language, please. I don't know what's good for you. You don't know what's good for me. We don't know what's good for mankind. And it sometimes seems as though we're the only people who don't. It may well be that, gathered right here in this room tonight, are all the people in the world who don't want to tell all the people in the world what to do. This is because we believe in freedom. Freedom -- what this country was established upon, what the Constitution was written to defend, what the Civil War was fought to perfect. Freedom is not empowerment. Empowerment is what the Serbs have in Bosnia. Anybody can grab a gun and be empowered. It's not entitlement. An entitlement is what people on welfare get, and how free are they? It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights -- the "right" to education, the "right" to health care, the "right" to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery -- hay and a barn for human cattle. There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences. So we are here tonight in a kind of antimatter protest -- an unpolitical undemonstration by deeply uncommitted inactivists. We are part of a huge invisible picket line that circles the White House twenty-four hours a day. We are participants in an enormous nonmarch on Washington -- millions and millions of Americans _not_ descending upon the nation's capital in order to demand _nothing_ from the United States government. To demand nothing, that is, except the one thing which no government in history has been able to do -- leave us alone. There are just two rules of governance in a free society: - Mind your own business. - Keep your hands to yourself. Bill--keep your hands to yourself. Hillary--mind your own business. We have a group of incredible silly people in the White House right now, people who think government works. Or that government _would_ work, if you got some real bright young kids from Yale to run it. We're being governed by dorm room bull session. The Clinton Administration is over there right now pulling an all-nighter in the West Wing. They think that, if they can just stay up late enough, they can create a healthy economy and bring peace to former Yugoslavia. The Clinton administration is going to decrease government spending by increasing the amount of money we give to the government to spend. Health care is too expensive, so the Clinton administration is putting a high-powered corporate lawyer -- Hillary -- in charge of making it cheaper. (This is what I always do when I want to spend less money -- hire a lawyer from Yale.) If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when it's free. The Clinton administration is putting together a program so that college graduates can work to pay off their school tuition. As if this were some genius idea. It's called _getting_a_job_. Most folks do that when they get out of college, unless, of course, they happen to become governor of Arkansas. And the Clinton administration launched an attack on people in Waco, Texas, because those people were religious nuts with guns. Hell, this country was _founded_ by religious nuts with guns. Who does Bill Clinton think stepped ashore on Plymouth Rock? Peace Corps volunteers? Or maybe the people in Texas were attacked because of child abuse. But, if child abuse was the issue, why didn't Janet Reno teargas Woody Allen? You know, if government were a product, selling it would be illegal. Government is a health hazard. Governments have killed many more people that cigarettes or unbuckled seat belts ever have. Government contains impure ingredients -- as anybody who's looked at Congress can tell you. On the basis of Bill Clinton's 1992 campaign promises, I think we can say government practices deceptive advertising. --- * TIMM 1.3 * I'm pro-choice on everything! Date: Friday, April 18, 1997 4:14pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Rand Msg#: 733793 To: *ALL* *EXEMPT* Re: Supporting Steve... (1 reply) Oddly enough, I came upon this whilst browsing through some stuff... It happened to be relevant to the discussion we recently had. * In the Journal of Abnormal Psychology released in August, a University of Georgia researcher concluded that a group of homophobic men (men who feared and hated homosexuals and dreaded being close to them) contained twice as many men who were sexually aroused by erotic photos of men as did an equal group of nonhomophobic men. [Albuquerque Journal-Knight- Ridder News Service, 8-1-96] See, Steve, got ya' a citation! TANSTAAFL, Rand --- * TIMM 1.3 * There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. Date: Thursday, May 8, 1997 6:55am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 735189 To: Des *EXEMPT* Re: Free Speech has been repealed? (Reply to #735175, Reply to #734708, Reply to #734586, R*) (1 reply) DE>V> DE>L> I have a feeling you'll enjoy really getting involved in real DE>V> DE>L> discussions about other topics with us. We're always eager to have DE>V> DE>L> people here, like you, who can disagree with what someone says with DE>V> DE>L> being rude and offensive and insulting. DE>V> DE>V> DE>After my questions are answered. DE>V> DE>V> DE>A non response wopuld lead me to believe you aren't being honest DE>V> DE>as to how this all occurred. DE>V> DE>V> DE>Quack on the other hand had concurred with most of what you accuse DE>V> DE>him of except for some of the magnitude. You however haven't DE>V> DE>actually stated anything concrete as to the where and when. DE>V> DE>Simply state the date or dates and post #'s. Please. DE>V> DE>V> Do you like talking about yourself Quack? Do you really believe that DE>V> there is any one on the Board who doesn't know that you created this DE>V> false handle to try to cause more dissenssion on the board? DE>V> DE>V> Oh I bet that you won't answer this one, because you know that I am not DE>V> fooled by your little game. DE>I don't answer people who are inflammatory. You seem to enjoy DE>attacking issues with no real answers. thats why I didn't DE>respond to you prior posts. They weren't worth a response. DE>You seem to have this delusion as to who I reaaly am. Thats your DE>right. Believe what you want to. If you would like toverify my DE>existence send me a private E-mail. I will give you my complete DE>name. You may then look up my phone number in the queens phone DE>book and call me at home to verify my reality. I will nopt reply DE>to any other combatitive posts. If you can I would appreciate DE>you relating any flaming posts that quack posted that would be DE>cause to suspend him. I don't believe you will respond because DE>that would ruin your delusion. As far as I could see there was DE>no valid reason to suspend him. DE>I will bet that you can't answer this post with any real facts. I am not going to sit here and play games with you Quack. From the posts that you have put up using this phony name it is clear to me that you are Quack. You use the same exact logic and arguments that Quack has used. You also have much, much too much "hearsay" information from Quack for you to be anyone else but Quack. You are quite right, I have been unusually inflamatory in responding to you. But that is because I don't like people who lie and I don't like people who are frauds. I also don't like people who insult my intelligence by trying to con me into believing that the moon is made out of green cheese. You know quite well why you were suspended Quack. You singlehandly pushed many, many good people like RPM off this board. You argued a point for the sheer hell and fun of the argument, rather than out of any real commitment and belief in the argument. You were told repeatedly over and over again by the sysops to cease and desist from flaming people. You were warned over and over again. You refused to listen to the sysops' repeated requests and only AFTER repeated warnings were you finally removed from the board. Date: Tuesday, June 10, 1997 1:42pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Jesse Msg#: 737213 To: Editor *EXEMPT* Re: The more things change, the more they remain the s (Reply to #736007, Reply to #735980, Reply to #735947, R*) (4 replies) My, my, my........after being away for a few years I come back on and see that Quack and raised the ire of many and was suspended. Guess I was ahead of my time when I started ignoring him many years ago. Cheers to all, Jesse Date: Sunday, August 3, 1997 1:58pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 739811 To: Vida *EXEMPT* Re: Mahane Yehuda bombing (Reply to #739787) (2 replies) My daugher is spending several weeks in Israel this summer. This is an email I got from her today. ------------------------ I was just finishing lunch when one of my classmates came my table in the dinning room and said that a bomb had exploded in Jerusalem. We immediatly started to figure out who had gone to Jerusalem that day, becuase that day there was an option activity that not everyone had gone on. There were a couple of people who had gone, one ot two of them were my friends, that was a scary moment, realizing that they might not have come back. Thankfull they were allright, but a little shaken. later on I heard that one of them had been on mahcanai Yehuda about 20 minutes before...... The next day, all of the arabs staying here were ordered to leave, thses weren't nameless, facedless, arabs to me... they were nice people, several of them even apologized after the bombings, some cried before they left. It totally changess my persective to be here while it's happening. I don't know how I feel now, but when someone says, the arabs are all bad, it got on my nerves before, now it really annoys me. At one point in time wasn't every Jew clumped together under the title "Filth" in some parts of the world? Or just plain "Different" in others. that is what annoys me about todays situation, it's all from one point of view... -------------------- [Editorial comment: I think the kid has got it. Must've been brought up right or something.] --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Tuesday, November 25, 1997 7:18am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 742637 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Pilgrims! (2 replies) This story appeared in "Nando Times". If you are really interested, the web page this story refers to is at http://members.aol.com/calebj/mayflower.html. We give thanks for nefarious ancestors ... Copyright ) 1997 Nando.net Copyright ) 1997 Scripps Howard (November 25, 1997 01:06 a.m. EST http://www.nando.net) -- Thanksgiving is a time when some descendants of the Mayflower settlers may want to bow their heads in thanks that others haven't found out what their ancestors were really like. One was a pig thief. One was a drunk. One was a mutineer. One was a polygamist. Another was a murderer. These are some of the findings of Caleb Johnson, 21, a history student at Texas Tech and designer of Web pages on the Internet that tell about the 104 Pilgrims and "adventurers" who left England and arrived aboard the Mayflower, at what is now Plymouth, Mass., in November 1620 -- and how they didn't, in fact, celebrate Thanksgiving in any formal way. Johnson, who claims descent from no less than seven of the Mayflower travelers, warns that doing genealogical research is not for those worried about finding unwelcome things. "Genealogy is for those who want to learn about their ancestors," he says. "It's not for those who want to put their ancestors up on some kind of pedestal." Consider Edward Doty, one of Johnson's own forebears whose crimes are described on the young historian's Web Page. In 1621, Doty was found guilty of dueling and sentenced to have his heels tied together for one hour. In 1633, he committed a breach of contract for failing to turn over six pigs to Joseph Rogers, then fined 50 shillings for slandering William Bennett. Over the next 15 years, Doty was convicted of disorderly conduct, assault, stealing firewood and letting his cows eat a neighbor's cornfield. It happens that Doty was punished for one of his offenses by Myles Standish, a Johnson ancestor. "It's like being descended from Billy the Kid and Pat Garrett both," says Johnson. At least four other Mayflower settlers racked up impressive criminal histories, according to Johnson. Stephen Hopkins was found guilty of breaching contract, price fixing, illegally selling alcohol and assault and battery. He was convicted of mutiny, as well, and sentenced to death, but punishment was commuted on behalf of his wife and children. William Latham was convicted of breaking the peace and public drunkenness. Richard More was excommunicated for adultery and accused of polygamy for having wives on both sides of the Atlantic, but he was never so charged. Then there was John Billington, who murdered another settler and was hanged. Johnson points out that those with such records all belonged to the "London contingent" and were not religious separatists. The Pilgrims who fled from England to Holland in 1607-1608 couldn't afford to charter a ship to America by themselves, so they entered a partnership with "ordinary" Englishmen who wanted to come. Most of these settlers did not have churchly convictions. Johnson's research has met no criticism, as yet, from the General Society of Mayflower Descendants, which has 25,000 on its mailing list, including Johnson himself. Caroline Kardell, the society's historian in Plymouth, says, "I've heard a lot of good things about his Web page. He's doing a good job of it." Kardell concedes that some settlers like those cited by Johnson did have some troubles with the law. "Pilgrims were human beings like anybody else." One way they were unlike Americans today: They did not hold an annual holiday of giving thanks. Several early presidents, including George Washington, held one-time Thanksgivings. Abraham Lincoln finally made it a national holiday with a proclamation in 1863. It was Franklin Roosevelt, in 1939, who designated the fourth Thursday of November as Thanksgiving. Yet there are a couple of contemporary accounts in the historical record about feasts to honor a successful harvest. In one, a letter dated Dec. 12, 1621, Pilgrim Edward Winslow wrote: "Our harvest being gotten in, our governor sent four men on fowling, that so we might after a special manner rejoice together after we had gathered the fruit of our labors. .... for three days we entertained and feasted." As for the Pilgrims not all being stalwart characters as schoolbooks suggest, there could be a benefit for their descendants. Johnson is amused by his ancestor Edward Doty's misdeeds and says he's met offspring of John Billington who feel the same. "They tell me that their ancestor makes a great conversation starter. What could be better than, 'My Mayflower ancestor was hanged for murder.' Nobody holds that against the descendants 377 years after the fact, but it does make a great story to tell." John Lang is a reporter for Scripps Howard News Service Date: Tuesday, April 28, 1998 5:03am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Tempest Msg#: 746081 To: Vida Re: Electronic Filing (Reply to #742449, Reply to #742428, Reply to #742418, R*) (2 replies) VVI>ED>V >But I think, sooner or later, that the computer geeks will develope VI>ED>V >better artificial intelligence for computers. Just look at Big VI>ED>V >Blue--the computer program that beat the chess grandmaster at chess. VI>ED>V >So sooner or later computers will be able to mimic human intelligence VI>ED>V >and be able to institute law suits without human intervention. VI>ED>Funny you should mention Big Blue. Big Blue was NOT an artificial VI>ED>intelligence program. The artificial intelligence programs just couldn't VI>ED>cut it in chess. Big Blue was an example of cluster computing, sheer, bru VI>ED>force. I think they lashed together 32 processors and just beat every VI>ED>position to death by exhaustive analysis. There have been many experiment VI>ED>in mimmicing human thought process, but they only go so far. I always VI>ED>envision a start trek episode in which Will Riker gets carried away and VI>ED>screams "kill all the mother fuckers" and the computer promptly vaporizes VI>ED>every father on the ship. That's close to where we are today. We can kill VI>ED>all the mother fuckers, and damned efficiently too. VI>Well I have more faith that the geeks will eventually figure out how to VI>mimic the human thought process in computers! :) IMHO that's such an exciting prospect! I figure that with today's advances in neuroscience research, and the fact of technology getting smaller and smaller, it is VERY possible... I also have a hunch that this kind of technology might provide a real clue as to whether human beings really do have a "soul"... Date: Tuesday, April 28, 1998 5:13am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Tempest Msg#: 746082 To: Vida Re: Forced fatherhood?? (Reply to #742482, Reply to #742472, Reply to #742453, R*) (1 reply) VVI>SC>The funny thing here is that the best interest of the child would be to VI>SC>not be concieved, Because he or she will always be a sore point between VI>SC>the parents, and this can possibly cause mental scars for the child. VI>SC>--- VI>Now that's an interesting philosophical question! Is it in the child's VI>best interest to suffer in life or never to have been concieved? Sounds obvious to me! If it were in a child's best interest to suffer in life rather than to never have been conceived, then there would be MILLIONS of "wronged children" spurted out onto a ceiling or a wet spot on the bed or a stomach etc. every day... >:) Date: Tuesday, April 28, 1998 6:33am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746095 To: Steve Flur Re: Jury duty (Reply to #746071, Reply to #746038, Reply to #746034, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>I don't think they patrol too carefully the prohibition re: cellphones SF>VI>or beepers any more. And I certainly see people hanging out working SF>VI>with laptops in the Central Jury Room in Manhattan. (I sometimes hang SF>VI>out in the central jury room when I want to disappear for a hour or so.) SF>In the Queens court they were real serious about stopping cell phone SF>use! They don't try to stop the lawyers in Brooklyn Supreme is all I can say! What really drives me nuts is when other lawyers stand in front of a payphone, blocking the pay phone while they are using their cell phones. Since I don't have a cell phone I need the pay phone! Date: Tuesday, April 28, 1998 6:34am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746096 To: Nightbird Re: Jury duty (Reply to #746075, Reply to #746039, Reply to #746036, R*) (1 reply) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>When I served a few years ago(In Brooklyn)it was by phone. NI>VI>NI>VI>Very interesting. You got me totally confused. You should come wi NI>VI>NI>VI>me down to court one day and I would show you the Central jury roo NI>VI>NI>VI>with folks just hanging around, hanging around, hanging around. NI>VI>NI>I'm trying to think, I served maybe 4 or 5 years ago, and that was by NI>VI>NI>phone. NI>VI>NI>I guess it's chanced since(hope I DON'T get called) NI>VI>NI>--- NI>VI>Can you recall if the subpeona for jury duty was from the state court NI>VI>system or the federal court system? If it was from the feds, that NI>VI>could explain the difference. NI>I'll tell you the truth, I don't remember(been a few years) Then I would have to assume it was a subpeona from the federal system. :) Date: Tuesday, April 28, 1998 6:36am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746097 To: Tempest Re: Electronic Filing (Reply to #746081, Reply to #742449, Reply to #742428, R*) TE>VI>Well I have more faith that the geeks will eventually figure out how to TE>VI>mimic the human thought process in computers! :) TE>IMHO that's such an exciting prospect! I figure that with today's TE>advances in neuroscience research, and the fact of technology getting TE>smaller and smaller, it is VERY possible... TE>I also have a hunch that this kind of technology might provide a real TE>clue as to whether human beings really do have a "soul"... I don't think we can ever really answer that question definitively. It's metaphysics, not science. Date: Tuesday, April 28, 1998 6:36am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746098 To: Tempest Re: Forced fatherhood?? (Reply to #746082, Reply to #742482, Reply to #742472, R*) TE>VVI>SC>The funny thing here is that the best interest of the child would be TE>VI>SC>not be concieved, Because he or she will always be a sore point betwee TE>VI>SC>the parents, and this can possibly cause mental scars for the child. TE>VI>SC>--- TE>VI>Now that's an interesting philosophical question! Is it in the child's TE>VI>best interest to suffer in life or never to have been concieved? TE>Sounds obvious to me! If it were in a child's best interest to suffer in TE>life rather than to never have been conceived, then there would be TE>MILLIONS of "wronged children" spurted out onto a ceiling or a wet spot TE>on the bed or a stomach etc. every day... >:) Huh? You got me on that one, my friend. :) Date: Tuesday, April 28, 1998 8:34am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746112 To: Tempest Re: Electronic Filing (Reply to #746081, Reply to #742449, Reply to #742428, R*) (1 reply) T >VI>Well I have more faith that the geeks will eventually figure out ho T >VI>mimic the human thought process in computers! :) T > T >IMHO that's such an exciting prospect! I figure that with today's T >advances in neuroscience research, and the fact of technology getting T >smaller and smaller, it is VERY possible... T > T >I also have a hunch that this kind of technology might provide a real T >clue as to whether human beings really do have a "soul"... The "Turing test" says that if you cannot decide if you are interacting with a human or a computer, the computer has achieved intelligence. Certainly Big Blue qualified there. More interesting though is tag line about "Have you taken a Turing test and failed?" --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Tuesday, April 28, 1998 9:27am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Steve Flur Msg#: 746114 To: Vida Re: Jury duty (Reply to #746095, Reply to #746071, Reply to #746038, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>I don't think they patrol too carefully the prohibition re: cellphones VI>SF>VI>or beepers any more. And I certainly see people hanging out working VI>SF>VI>with laptops in the Central Jury Room in Manhattan. (I sometimes hang VI>SF>VI>out in the central jury room when I want to disappear for a hour or so VI>SF>In the Queens court they were real serious about stopping cell phone VI>SF>use! VI>They don't try to stop the lawyers in Brooklyn Supreme is all I can VI>say! VI>What really drives me nuts is when other lawyers stand in front of a VI>payphone, blocking the pay phone while they are using their cell VI>phones. Since I don't have a cell phone I need the pay phone! Sounds like they are trying to hide their cell phone use. Date: Tuesday, April 28, 1998 12:16pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 746117 To: Vida Re: Jury duty (Reply to #746096, Reply to #746075, Reply to #746039, R*) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>When I served a few years ago(In Brooklyn)it was by phone. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Very interesting. You got me totally confused. You should come VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>me down to court one day and I would show you the Central jury VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>with folks just hanging around, hanging around, hanging around. VI>NI>VI>NI>I'm trying to think, I served maybe 4 or 5 years ago, and that was VI>NI>VI>NI>phone. VI>NI>VI>NI>I guess it's chanced since(hope I DON'T get called) VI>NI>VI>NI>--- VI>NI>VI>Can you recall if the subpeona for jury duty was from the state court VI>NI>VI>system or the federal court system? If it was from the feds, that VI>NI>VI>could explain the difference. VI>NI>I'll tell you the truth, I don't remember(been a few years) VI>Then I would have to assume it was a subpeona from the federal system. VI>:) Your guess is as good as mine. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Unleavened bread is bread made without ingredients. Date: Wednesday, April 29, 1998 6:16am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746132 To: Steve Flur Re: Jury duty (Reply to #746114, Reply to #746095, Reply to #746071, R*) (2 replies) SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't think they patrol too carefully the prohibition re: cellpho SF>VI>SF>VI>or beepers any more. And I certainly see people hanging out workin SF>VI>SF>VI>with laptops in the Central Jury Room in Manhattan. (I sometimes h SF>VI>SF>VI>out in the central jury room when I want to disappear for a hour or SF>VI>SF>In the Queens court they were real serious about stopping cell phone SF>VI>SF>use! SF>VI>They don't try to stop the lawyers in Brooklyn Supreme is all I can SF>VI>say! SF>VI>What really drives me nuts is when other lawyers stand in front of a SF>VI>payphone, blocking the pay phone while they are using their cell SF>VI>phones. Since I don't have a cell phone I need the pay phone! SF>Sounds like they are trying to hide their cell phone use. Not at all. They are standing in FRONT of the booths, blocking entry to the booths! Drives me completely nuts. Date: Wednesday, April 29, 1998 8:37am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746138 To: Vida Re: Jury duty (Reply to #746132, Reply to #746114, Reply to #746095, R*) (1 reply) V > V >SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't think they patrol too carefully the prohibition re V >SF>VI>SF>VI>or beepers any more. And I certainly see people hanging o V >SF>VI>SF>VI>with laptops in the Central Jury Room in Manhattan. (I so V >SF>VI>SF>VI>out in the central jury room when I want to disappear for V >SF>VI>SF>In the Queens court they were real serious about stopping cel V >SF>VI>SF>use! V > V >SF>VI>They don't try to stop the lawyers in Brooklyn Supreme is all I V >SF>VI>say! V > V >SF>VI>What really drives me nuts is when other lawyers stand in front V >SF>VI>payphone, blocking the pay phone while they are using their cell V >SF>VI>phones. Since I don't have a cell phone I need the pay phone! V >SF>Sounds like they are trying to hide their cell phone use. V > V >Not at all. They are standing in FRONT of the booths, blocking entry V >to the booths! Drives me completely nuts. Easy enough to clear them away. Step over near the door and make a sound like an ambulance siren. That usually gets them moving. (Sorry... couldn't help myself.) --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Wednesday, April 29, 1998 11:11am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Steve Flur Msg#: 746139 To: Vida Re: Jury duty (Reply to #746132, Reply to #746114, Reply to #746095, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't think they patrol too carefully the prohibition re: cell VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>or beepers any more. And I certainly see people hanging out wor VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>with laptops in the Central Jury Room in Manhattan. (I sometime VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>out in the central jury room when I want to disappear for a hour VI>SF>VI>SF>In the Queens court they were real serious about stopping cell phon VI>SF>VI>SF>use! VI>SF>VI>They don't try to stop the lawyers in Brooklyn Supreme is all I can VI>SF>VI>say! VI>SF>VI>What really drives me nuts is when other lawyers stand in front of a VI>SF>VI>payphone, blocking the pay phone while they are using their cell VI>SF>VI>phones. Since I don't have a cell phone I need the pay phone! VI>SF>Sounds like they are trying to hide their cell phone use. VI>Not at all. They are standing in FRONT of the booths, blocking entry VI>to the booths! Drives me completely nuts. Then it's totally illogical! Date: Wednesday, April 29, 1998 7:13pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 746149 To: Editor Re: Electronic Filing (Reply to #746112, Reply to #746081, Reply to #742449, R*) (1 reply) ED>The "Turing test" says that if you cannot decide if you are interacting ED>with a human or a computer, the computer has achieved intelligence. ...Or you have never achieved the ability to interact with humans, or you have never achieved intelligence :-) Date: Wednesday, April 29, 1998 9:29pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746151 To: Kkid Re: Electronic Filing (Reply to #746149, Reply to #746112, Reply to #746081, R*) K >ED>The "Turing test" says that if you cannot decide if you are interac K >ED>with a human or a computer, the computer has achieved intelligence. K > K >...Or you have never achieved the ability to interact with humans, or K >you have never achieved intelligence :-) Well... as someone once said... anyone doubting the existence of artificial intelligence should come to one of our staff meetings. For sure there's no REAL intelligence there. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Friday, May 1, 1998 7:01am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746162 To: Editor Re: Jury duty (Reply to #746138, Reply to #746132, Reply to #746114, R*) (2 replies) ED>V > ED>V >SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't think they patrol too carefully the prohibition re ED>V >SF>VI>SF>VI>or beepers any more. And I certainly see people hanging o ED>V >SF>VI>SF>VI>with laptops in the Central Jury Room in Manhattan. (I so ED>V >SF>VI>SF>VI>out in the central jury room when I want to disappear for ED>V >SF>VI>SF>In the Queens court they were real serious about stopping cel ED>V >SF>VI>SF>use! ED>V > ED>V >SF>VI>They don't try to stop the lawyers in Brooklyn Supreme is all I ED>V >SF>VI>say! ED>V > ED>V >SF>VI>What really drives me nuts is when other lawyers stand in front ED>V >SF>VI>payphone, blocking the pay phone while they are using their cell ED>V >SF>VI>phones. Since I don't have a cell phone I need the pay phone! ED>V >SF>Sounds like they are trying to hide their cell phone use. ED>V > ED>V >Not at all. They are standing in FRONT of the booths, blocking entry ED>V >to the booths! Drives me completely nuts. ED>Easy enough to clear them away. Step over near the door and make a sound ED>like an ambulance siren. That usually gets them moving. ED>(Sorry... couldn't help myself.) ROFTL! They will all stumble over each other trying to hand out their cards to the "victims" . :) Date: Friday, May 1, 1998 7:02am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746163 To: Steve Flur Re: Jury duty (Reply to #746139, Reply to #746132, Reply to #746114, R*) (2 replies) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't think they patrol too carefully the prohibition re: c SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>or beepers any more. And I certainly see people hanging out SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>with laptops in the Central Jury Room in Manhattan. (I somet SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>out in the central jury room when I want to disappear for a h SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>In the Queens court they were real serious about stopping cell p SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>use! SF>VI>SF>VI>They don't try to stop the lawyers in Brooklyn Supreme is all I can SF>VI>SF>VI>say! SF>VI>SF>VI>What really drives me nuts is when other lawyers stand in front of SF>VI>SF>VI>payphone, blocking the pay phone while they are using their cell SF>VI>SF>VI>phones. Since I don't have a cell phone I need the pay phone! SF>VI>SF>Sounds like they are trying to hide their cell phone use. SF>VI>Not at all. They are standing in FRONT of the booths, blocking entry SF>VI>to the booths! Drives me completely nuts. SF>Then it's totally illogical! You expect logical behavior from a bunch of lawyers? Date: Friday, May 1, 1998 8:46am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746169 To: Vida Re: Jury duty (Reply to #746162, Reply to #746138, Reply to #746132, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>Easy enough to clear them away. Step over near the door and make a V >ED>like an ambulance siren. That usually gets them moving. V > V >ED>(Sorry... couldn't help myself.) V > V >ROFTL! V > V >They will all stumble over each other trying to hand out their cards t V >the "victims" . :) I actually borrowed that from an old "Shoe" comic strip that I keep on hand. Shoe couldn't find a space at a crowded bar, so he steps onto the sidewalk and makes a sound like an ambulance siren and clears the bar in seconds. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Friday, May 1, 1998 8:46am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746171 To: ** ALL ** Re: Tobacco (1 reply) There is some really exciting news on the cancer front. Even some pretty conservative research types are saying that we may be no more than 5 years away from having an approved set of drugs that will bring most cancers to a grinding halt, if not downright sending them into remission. On the list of effected cancers are breast cancer and lung cancer. This raises an interesting question. Suppose that lung cancer were no longer an issue.... what about all this anti-tobacco legislation? All the high profile examples (John Wayne, Humphry Bogart, etc.) are cancer related. Certainly there are other negatives, such as emphysema, but, without the lung cancer demon, would tobacco be any worse than liquor? --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Friday, May 1, 1998 8:54am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Steve Flur Msg#: 746172 To: Vida Re: Jury duty (Reply to #746163, Reply to #746139, Reply to #746132, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't think they patrol too carefully the prohibition re VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>or beepers any more. And I certainly see people hanging o VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>with laptops in the Central Jury Room in Manhattan. (I so VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>out in the central jury room when I want to disappear for VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>In the Queens court they were real serious about stopping cel VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>use! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>They don't try to stop the lawyers in Brooklyn Supreme is all I VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>say! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>What really drives me nuts is when other lawyers stand in front VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>payphone, blocking the pay phone while they are using their cell VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>phones. Since I don't have a cell phone I need the pay phone! VI>SF>VI>SF>Sounds like they are trying to hide their cell phone use. VI>SF>VI>Not at all. They are standing in FRONT of the booths, blocking entry VI>SF>VI>to the booths! Drives me completely nuts. VI>SF>Then it's totally illogical! VI>You expect logical behavior from a bunch of lawyers? Sounds like the behavior of my former patients at Creedmoor. Date: Friday, May 1, 1998 12:03pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 746177 To: Vida Re: Jury duty (Reply to #746162, Reply to #746138, Reply to #746132, R*) (1 reply) VI>ED>V > VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't think they patrol too carefully the prohibition re VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>VI>or beepers any more. And I certainly see people hanging o VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>VI>with laptops in the Central Jury Room in Manhattan. (I so VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>VI>out in the central jury room when I want to disappear for VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>In the Queens court they were real serious about stopping cel VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>use! VI>ED>V > VI>ED>V >SF>VI>They don't try to stop the lawyers in Brooklyn Supreme is all I VI>ED>V >SF>VI>say! VI>ED>V > VI>ED>V >SF>VI>What really drives me nuts is when other lawyers stand in front VI>ED>V >SF>VI>payphone, blocking the pay phone while they are using their cell VI>ED>V >SF>VI>phones. Since I don't have a cell phone I need the pay phone! VI>ED>V >SF>Sounds like they are trying to hide their cell phone use. VI>ED>V > VI>ED>V >Not at all. They are standing in FRONT of the booths, blocking entry VI>ED>V >to the booths! Drives me completely nuts. VI>ED>Easy enough to clear them away. Step over near the door and make a sound VI>ED>like an ambulance siren. That usually gets them moving. VI>ED>(Sorry... couldn't help myself.) VI>ROFTL! VI>They will all stumble over each other trying to hand out their cards to VI>the "victims" . :) Sounds like my friend's boss. :) --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ It's not to late to have a happy childhood. Date: Friday, May 1, 1998 12:03pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 746178 To: Vida Re: Jury duty (Reply to #746163, Reply to #746139, Reply to #746132, R*) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't think they patrol too carefully the prohibition re VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>or beepers any more. And I certainly see people hanging o VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>with laptops in the Central Jury Room in Manhattan. (I so VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>out in the central jury room when I want to disappear for VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>In the Queens court they were real serious about stopping cel VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>use! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>They don't try to stop the lawyers in Brooklyn Supreme is all I VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>say! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>What really drives me nuts is when other lawyers stand in front VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>payphone, blocking the pay phone while they are using their cell VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>phones. Since I don't have a cell phone I need the pay phone! VI>SF>VI>SF>Sounds like they are trying to hide their cell phone use. VI>SF>VI>Not at all. They are standing in FRONT of the booths, blocking entry VI>SF>VI>to the booths! Drives me completely nuts. VI>SF>Then it's totally illogical! VI>You expect logical behavior from a bunch of lawyers? Not really, would be nice be no :) --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ I don't think, therefore I am not. Date: Saturday, May 2, 1998 8:13am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746190 To: Editor Re: Jury duty (Reply to #746169, Reply to #746162, Reply to #746138, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >ED>Easy enough to clear them away. Step over near the door and make a ED>V >ED>like an ambulance siren. That usually gets them moving. ED>V > ED>V >ED>(Sorry... couldn't help myself.) ED>V > ED>V >ROFTL! ED>V > ED>V >They will all stumble over each other trying to hand out their cards t ED>V >the "victims" . :) ED>I actually borrowed that from an old "Shoe" comic strip that I keep on ED>hand. Shoe couldn't find a space at a crowded bar, so he steps onto the ED>sidewalk and makes a sound like an ambulance siren and clears the bar in ED>seconds. Yeah, but the sad part is the more I thought of it, the more I realized that the blocking of the phone booths is INTENTIONAL. Not mindless. Most cell phone services charge for incoming calls, as well as outgoing calls. I now think that the lawyers give out the phone booth numbers to prospective clients or their offices so that they can get incoming calls without paying for them! The use of phone booth numbers as an "office number" is quite legendary in legal circles. Allegedly one of the biggest plaintiff's law firms in the city got its start when a group of four lawyers rented out a locker at Grand Central Station. The lawyers then printed up stationary and business cards using a phone booth number in Grand Central as their phone number. They then took turns standing in front of the phone booth and answered the phones "law offices" each time it rang. Like all good legends, this one probably has some basis in reality. Date: Saturday, May 2, 1998 8:18am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746191 To: Editor Re: Tobacco (Reply to #746171) (1 reply) ED>There is some really exciting news on the cancer front. Even some pretty ED>conservative research types are saying that we may be no more than 5 years ED>away from having an approved set of drugs that will bring most cancers to a ED>grinding halt, if not downright sending them into remission. On the list of ED>effected cancers are breast cancer and lung cancer. ED>This raises an interesting question. Suppose that lung cancer were no ED>longer an issue.... what about all this anti-tobacco legislation? All the ED>high profile examples (John Wayne, Humphry Bogart, etc.) are cancer ED>related. Certainly there are other negatives, such as emphysema, but, ED>without the lung cancer demon, would tobacco be any worse than liquor? This is all very interesting but I thnk we have to wait to see if this drug really cures and/or reverses cancer before we go around posing this question. And we will also need to wait and see what kind of side effects, if any, this drug will have before we can do a meaningful cost/benefit analysis. Date: Saturday, May 2, 1998 8:19am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746192 To: Steve Flur Re: Jury duty (Reply to #746172, Reply to #746163, Reply to #746139, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't think they patrol too carefully the prohibition SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>or beepers any more. And I certainly see people hangin SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>with laptops in the Central Jury Room in Manhattan. (I SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>out in the central jury room when I want to disappear f SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>In the Queens court they were real serious about stopping SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>use! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>They don't try to stop the lawyers in Brooklyn Supreme is all SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>say! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>What really drives me nuts is when other lawyers stand in fro SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>payphone, blocking the pay phone while they are using their c SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>phones. Since I don't have a cell phone I need the pay phone SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Sounds like they are trying to hide their cell phone use. SF>VI>SF>VI>Not at all. They are standing in FRONT of the booths, blocking ent SF>VI>SF>VI>to the booths! Drives me completely nuts. SF>VI>SF>Then it's totally illogical! SF>VI>You expect logical behavior from a bunch of lawyers? SF>Sounds like the behavior of my former patients at Creedmoor. No, as I just posted to Editor, now I think that the phone blocking I observe is intentional. They want to keep the line free so they can receive incoming phone calls. Date: Saturday, May 2, 1998 8:20am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746193 To: Nightbird Re: Jury duty (Reply to #746177, Reply to #746162, Reply to #746138, R*) (1 reply) NI>VI>ED>V > NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't think they patrol too carefully the prohibition NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>VI>or beepers any more. And I certainly see people hangin NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>VI>with laptops in the Central Jury Room in Manhattan. (I NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>VI>out in the central jury room when I want to disappear f NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>In the Queens court they were real serious about stopping NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>use! NI>VI>ED>V > NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>They don't try to stop the lawyers in Brooklyn Supreme is all NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>say! NI>VI>ED>V > NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>What really drives me nuts is when other lawyers stand in fro NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>payphone, blocking the pay phone while they are using their c NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>phones. Since I don't have a cell phone I need the pay phone NI>VI>ED>V >SF>Sounds like they are trying to hide their cell phone use. NI>VI>ED>V > NI>VI>ED>V >Not at all. They are standing in FRONT of the booths, blocking ent NI>VI>ED>V >to the booths! Drives me completely nuts. NI>VI>ED>Easy enough to clear them away. Step over near the door and make a sou NI>VI>ED>like an ambulance siren. That usually gets them moving. NI>VI>ED>(Sorry... couldn't help myself.) NI>VI>ROFTL! NI>VI>They will all stumble over each other trying to hand out their cards to NI>VI>the "victims" . :) NI>Sounds like my friend's boss. :) NI>--- It's the occupational disease of ALL plaintiff's attorneys. :) (Remember--I'm a defendant's attorney!) Date: Saturday, May 2, 1998 11:41am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Steve Flur Msg#: 746197 To: Vida Re: Jury duty (Reply to #746192, Reply to #746172, Reply to #746163, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't think they patrol too carefully the prohibit VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>or beepers any more. And I certainly see people han VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>with laptops in the Central Jury Room in Manhattan. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>out in the central jury room when I want to disappea VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>In the Queens court they were real serious about stoppi VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>use! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>They don't try to stop the lawyers in Brooklyn Supreme is VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>say! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>What really drives me nuts is when other lawyers stand in VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>payphone, blocking the pay phone while they are using thei VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>phones. Since I don't have a cell phone I need the pay ph VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Sounds like they are trying to hide their cell phone use. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Not at all. They are standing in FRONT of the booths, blocking VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>to the booths! Drives me completely nuts. VI>SF>VI>SF>Then it's totally illogical! VI>SF>VI>You expect logical behavior from a bunch of lawyers? VI>SF>Sounds like the behavior of my former patients at Creedmoor. VI>No, as I just posted to Editor, now I think that the phone blocking I VI>observe is intentional. They want to keep the line free so they can VI>receive incoming phone calls. You mean they like it both ways. Date: Saturday, May 2, 1998 7:59pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 746200 To: Vida Re: Jury duty (Reply to #746193, Reply to #746177, Reply to #746162, R*) (1 reply) VI>NI>VI>ED>V > VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't think they patrol too carefully the prohibit VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>VI>or beepers any more. And I certainly see people han VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>VI>with laptops in the Central Jury Room in Manhattan. VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>VI>out in the central jury room when I want to disappea VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>In the Queens court they were real serious about stoppi VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>use! VI>NI>VI>ED>V > VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>They don't try to stop the lawyers in Brooklyn Supreme is VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>say! VI>NI>VI>ED>V > VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>What really drives me nuts is when other lawyers stand in VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>payphone, blocking the pay phone while they are using thei VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>phones. Since I don't have a cell phone I need the pay ph VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>Sounds like they are trying to hide their cell phone use. VI>NI>VI>ED>V > VI>NI>VI>ED>V >Not at all. They are standing in FRONT of the booths, blocking VI>NI>VI>ED>V >to the booths! Drives me completely nuts. VI>NI>VI>ED>Easy enough to clear them away. Step over near the door and make a VI>NI>VI>ED>like an ambulance siren. That usually gets them moving. VI>NI>VI>ED>(Sorry... couldn't help myself.) VI>NI>VI>ROFTL! VI>NI>VI>They will all stumble over each other trying to hand out their cards t VI>NI>VI>the "victims" . :) VI>NI>Sounds like my friend's boss. :) VI>NI>--- VI>It's the occupational disease of ALL plaintiff's attorneys. :) VI>(Remember--I'm a defendant's attorney!) Yes, you poor person :) --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ *Now* what? Date: Saturday, May 2, 1998 9:35pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746202 To: Vida Re: Jury duty (Reply to #746190, Reply to #746169, Reply to #746162, R*) (1 reply) V >I now think that the lawyers give out the phone booth numbers to V >prospective clients or their offices so that they can get incoming V >calls without paying for them! V > V >The use of phone booth numbers as an "office number" is quite legendar V >in legal circles. V > V >Allegedly one of the biggest plaintiff's law firms in the city got its V >start when a group of four lawyers rented out a locker at Grand Centra V >Station. The lawyers then printed up stationary and business cards V >using a phone booth number in Grand Central as their phone number. V >They then took turns standing in front of the phone booth and answered V >the phones "law offices" each time it rang. Like all good legends, V >this one probably has some basis in reality. Well.... it puts me in mind of the time I got paged, and didn't have a portable cellular with me. I was on the corner of 7th and 29th, and there are three phone booths there, two were broken and in front of the third was this black guy who, I kid you not, was about as tall as a house and was wearing clothes straight out of SuperFly. I asked if I could use the phone, and in a deep, grumbly voice said "Its busy". It didn't seem wise to debate it. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Saturday, May 2, 1998 9:35pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746203 To: Vida Re: Tobacco (Reply to #746191, Reply to #746171) (1 reply) V >ED>There is some really exciting news on the cancer front. Even some p V >ED>conservative research types are saying that we may be no more than V >ED>away from having an approved set of drugs that will bring most canc V >ED>grinding halt, if not downright sending them into remission. On the V >ED>effected cancers are breast cancer and lung cancer. V > V >ED>This raises an interesting question. Suppose that lung cancer were V >ED>longer an issue.... what about all this anti-tobacco legislation? A V >ED>high profile examples (John Wayne, Humphry Bogart, etc.) are cancer V >ED>related. Certainly there are other negatives, such as emphysema, bu V >ED>without the lung cancer demon, would tobacco be any worse than liqu V > V >This is all very interesting but I thnk we have to wait to see if this V >drug really cures and/or reverses cancer before we go around posing V >this question. And we will also need to wait and see what kind of sid V >effects, if any, this drug will have before we can do a meaningful V >cost/benefit analysis. I agree, but it sounds good so far, but more important, if its not this one, its the next. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Sunday, May 3, 1998 5:46pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746211 To: Steve Flur Re: Jury duty (Reply to #746197, Reply to #746192, Reply to #746172, R*) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't think they patrol too carefully the prohi SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>or beepers any more. And I certainly see people SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>with laptops in the Central Jury Room in Manhatta SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>out in the central jury room when I want to disap SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>In the Queens court they were real serious about sto SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>use! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>They don't try to stop the lawyers in Brooklyn Supreme SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>say! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>What really drives me nuts is when other lawyers stand SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>payphone, blocking the pay phone while they are using t SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>phones. Since I don't have a cell phone I need the pay SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Sounds like they are trying to hide their cell phone use. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Not at all. They are standing in FRONT of the booths, blocki SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>to the booths! Drives me completely nuts. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Then it's totally illogical! SF>VI>SF>VI>You expect logical behavior from a bunch of lawyers? SF>VI>SF>Sounds like the behavior of my former patients at Creedmoor. SF>VI>No, as I just posted to Editor, now I think that the phone blocking I SF>VI>observe is intentional. They want to keep the line free so they can SF>VI>receive incoming phone calls. SF>You mean they like it both ways. Absolutely! Date: Sunday, May 3, 1998 5:47pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746212 To: Nightbird Re: Jury duty (Reply to #746200, Reply to #746193, Reply to #746177, R*) (1 reply) NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V > NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't think they patrol too carefully the prohi NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>VI>or beepers any more. And I certainly see people NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>VI>with laptops in the Central Jury Room in Manhatta NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>VI>out in the central jury room when I want to disap NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>In the Queens court they were real serious about sto NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>use! NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V > NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>They don't try to stop the lawyers in Brooklyn Supreme NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>say! NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V > NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>What really drives me nuts is when other lawyers stand NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>payphone, blocking the pay phone while they are using t NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>phones. Since I don't have a cell phone I need the pay NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>Sounds like they are trying to hide their cell phone use. NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V > NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >Not at all. They are standing in FRONT of the booths, blocki NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >to the booths! Drives me completely nuts. NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>Easy enough to clear them away. Step over near the door and make NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>like an ambulance siren. That usually gets them moving. NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>(Sorry... couldn't help myself.) NI>VI>NI>VI>ROFTL! NI>VI>NI>VI>They will all stumble over each other trying to hand out their card NI>VI>NI>VI>the "victims" . :) NI>VI>NI>Sounds like my friend's boss. :) NI>VI>NI>--- NI>VI>It's the occupational disease of ALL plaintiff's attorneys. :) NI>VI>(Remember--I'm a defendant's attorney!) NI>Yes, you poor person :) NI>--- It takes a thick skin, that's for sure! :) Date: Sunday, May 3, 1998 5:48pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746213 To: Editor Re: Jury duty (Reply to #746202, Reply to #746190, Reply to #746169, R*) ED>V >I now think that the lawyers give out the phone booth numbers to ED>V >prospective clients or their offices so that they can get incoming ED>V >calls without paying for them! ED>V > ED>V >The use of phone booth numbers as an "office number" is quite legendar ED>V >in legal circles. ED>V > ED>V >Allegedly one of the biggest plaintiff's law firms in the city got its ED>V >start when a group of four lawyers rented out a locker at Grand Centra ED>V >Station. The lawyers then printed up stationary and business cards ED>V >using a phone booth number in Grand Central as their phone number. ED>V >They then took turns standing in front of the phone booth and answered ED>V >the phones "law offices" each time it rang. Like all good legends, ED>V >this one probably has some basis in reality. ED>Well.... it puts me in mind of the time I got paged, and didn't have a ED>portable cellular with me. I was on the corner of 7th and 29th, and there ED>are three phone booths there, two were broken and in front of the third was ED>this black guy who, I kid you not, was about as tall as a house and was ED>wearing clothes straight out of SuperFly. I asked if I could use the phone, ED>and in a deep, grumbly voice said "Its busy". ED>It didn't seem wise to debate it. Wise choice. For the description of those guys, I don't think their business was quite legal. Date: Sunday, May 3, 1998 5:49pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746214 To: Editor Re: Tobacco (Reply to #746203, Reply to #746191, Reply to #746171) ED>V >ED>There is some really exciting news on the cancer front. Even some p ED>V >ED>conservative research types are saying that we may be no more than ED>V >ED>away from having an approved set of drugs that will bring most canc ED>V >ED>grinding halt, if not downright sending them into remission. On the ED>V >ED>effected cancers are breast cancer and lung cancer. ED>V > ED>V >ED>This raises an interesting question. Suppose that lung cancer were ED>V >ED>longer an issue.... what about all this anti-tobacco legislation? A ED>V >ED>high profile examples (John Wayne, Humphry Bogart, etc.) are cancer ED>V >ED>related. Certainly there are other negatives, such as emphysema, bu ED>V >ED>without the lung cancer demon, would tobacco be any worse than liqu ED>V > ED>V >This is all very interesting but I thnk we have to wait to see if this ED>V >drug really cures and/or reverses cancer before we go around posing ED>V >this question. And we will also need to wait and see what kind of sid ED>V >effects, if any, this drug will have before we can do a meaningful ED>V >cost/benefit analysis. ED>I agree, but it sounds good so far, but more important, if its not this ED>one, its the next. Maybe. And maybe not. Date: Monday, May 4, 1998 2:56pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 746227 To: Vida Re: Jury duty (Reply to #746212, Reply to #746200, Reply to #746193, R*) (1 reply) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V > VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't think they patrol too carefully the pr VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>VI>or beepers any more. And I certainly see peop VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>VI>with laptops in the Central Jury Room in Manha VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>VI>out in the central jury room when I want to di VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>In the Queens court they were real serious about VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>use! VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V > VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>They don't try to stop the lawyers in Brooklyn Supre VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>say! VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V > VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>What really drives me nuts is when other lawyers sta VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>payphone, blocking the pay phone while they are usin VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>phones. Since I don't have a cell phone I need the VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>Sounds like they are trying to hide their cell phone us VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V > VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >Not at all. They are standing in FRONT of the booths, blo VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >to the booths! Drives me completely nuts. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>Easy enough to clear them away. Step over near the door and m VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>like an ambulance siren. That usually gets them moving. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>(Sorry... couldn't help myself.) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ROFTL! VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>They will all stumble over each other trying to hand out their c VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>the "victims" . :) VI>NI>VI>NI>Sounds like my friend's boss. :) VI>NI>VI>NI>--- VI>NI>VI>It's the occupational disease of ALL plaintiff's attorneys. :) VI>NI>VI>(Remember--I'm a defendant's attorney!) VI>NI>Yes, you poor person :) VI>NI>--- VI>It takes a thick skin, that's for sure! :) I would gather that it does. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ #30-3771: Does the Chesire Cat drink Evaporated Milk? Date: Monday, May 4, 1998 11:05pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Steve C Msg#: 746235 To: ** ALL ** Re: Chocoholics Beware 1/2 (1 reply) For my fellow chocoholics. Date: 05-04-98 (00:38) Number: 2841 of 2841 (Refer# NONE) To: quiconque est curieux From: FORWARDED POST Subj: Chocoholics take note... Read: NO Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: A.Food (1) Read Type: GENERAL (-) Chocoholics Take Note: Beloved Bean in Peril - May 4, 1998 - By CAROL KAESUK YOON, New York Times An unusual alliance of manufacturers and environmental groups has formed to try to prevent what for many people around the world would be a disaster of gigantic proportions: a shortage of chocolate. For while the world's appetite for chocolate grows more voracious each year, cocoa farms around the globe are failing, under siege from fungal and viral diseases and insects. For decades, cocoa farming has escaped such problems by moving to new areas in the tropics, even new countries or continents, where growers find more rain forest to establish cocoa farms. But now they are running out of new forests to turn to. Researchers predict a shortfall in beans from the cacao tree, the raw material from which chocolate is made, in as little as five to 10 years. "We're running out of places in the world" to plant cocoa, said Dr. Carol Knight, vice president of scientific affairs at the American Cocoa Research Institute, a nonprofit group that tracks cocoa bean supply. "We have to figure out how to grow it sustainably. Nobody wants to lose chocolate." To that end, representatives from the Mars, Cadbury, Nestle and Hershey chocolate companies met with conservation groups last month at the Smithsonian Tropical Research Institute in Panama to talk about strategies for sustainable farming. The Mars company paid for the meeting. Sustainability is a broad notion that includes keeping farms partially forested to preserve biodiversity, farming without large doses of pesticides, fungicides or fertilizers, and replanting rather than abandoning farms. For cocoa, researchers say, sustainability will require a shift away from the large plantations carved out of the rain forest to the smaller farms where cacao trees are grown in the shade of larger trees. Plantation trees, exposed to the sun, require more fertilizer, fungicide and pesticide, and are at greater risk of the spread of pests and disease. Plantations fail when the cost of maintaining them becomes prohibitive. A shift away from plantations could prove a boon to small farmers and also help preserve rainforests and the many plant and animal species that appear to flourish in the natural environment of a cocoa grove. But the task of designing the small-scale cocoa farm of the future is daunting because little is known about how best to grow the trees. The cacao tree evolved in the New World tropics under the shade of taller rain forest trees. After six years or so, the slow growing tree produces fruit, large pods about the size and shape of a small football that contain about 40 cocoa beans, each the size of a lima bean. They can be roasted, ground and mixed with sugar and milk to produce chocolate. But for reasons that researchers say they do not yet understand, the cacao tree seems particularly vulnerable to pests. Walter Rodriguez, president of a cocoa-growing cooperative of small farmers in Costa Rica, speaking by telephone through an interpreter, said that in Costa Rica, the fungus monilia has been a devastating problem. "In 1978, '79, when monilia came," he said, "the trees remained but the harvest disappeared. As a product, cocoa almost disappeared." In West Africa, black pod disease, a cousin of potato blight, can cause losses of up to 80 percent of the crop in a wet year. Experts predict that in Bahia, an area of Brazil that has had annual productions of hundreds of thousands of tons of cocoa pods, harvests this year will be half what they were just a few years ago because of a fungal disease called witches'-broom. "There are diseases in South America that are threatening to wipe out the industry there," said Dr. Jim Gockowski, an agricultural economist at the International Institute of Tropical Agriculture, speaking by telephone from Cameroon, "as well as the rest of the world if they spread." Tony Lass, an expert on cocoa cultivation at the British chocolate maker Cadbury Ltd., said that a new species of black pod disease had evolved and quickly spread to the border of the Ivory Coast, the world's largest cocoa producer. "It's now sitting on the frontier," Lass said, "where a million tons of cocoa a year is under threat." Once disease strikes, trees not only produce fewer beans but beans of less reliable quality and, some say, poorer flavor. In hopes of increasing production, some farmers, like those in Malaysia, have planted hundreds of acres of trees on cleared land, but the trees, bereft of shade from taller trees, appear to be far more vulnerable to diseases and pests. Plantations produce large yields in the first few years but the cost of maintaining the fields soon becomes prohibitive. Marlene Machut, a spokeswoman for Mplained that on plantations, "if there is a disease it runs rampant across a much larger acreage than in a small-farm situation, where one farmer may have a problem but it doesn't leap to the next farm." Plantation farming is also inefficient, Lass said. "You try to do the uniform thing to trees, like spraying on a schedule, and you end up costing yourself money. Not every tree needs that treatment." By contrast, said John Lunde, industrial scientist and director of international environmental programs at Mhe small farmers with a couple of acres of land know each tree like a dairy farmer knows each cow's performance and what works when." As a result, there is an emerging consensus among chocolate makers and researchers that the future of cocoa beans lies with small farmers on more shaded, forested, intensively tended land. For conservation advocates this is all good news. Dr. Russell Greenberg, director of the Smithsonian Migratory Bird Center, said: "Most of the areas where tropical migrant birds go for the winter are deforested. We're interested in crops that promote trees being out there." And researchers are finding that cocoa supports many species, not just birds. >>> Continued to next message --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Me, indecisive? I'm not so sure about that. Date: Monday, May 4, 1998 11:05pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Steve C Msg#: 746236 To: ** ALL ** Re: Chocoholics Beware 2/2 >>> Continued from previous message "What's surprising is the amount of diversity that you do find," Dr. Alison Power said. Dr. Power and Dr. Alex Flecker, ecologists at Cornell University, have been working in the Dominican Republic, where cocoa is grown under the most natural conditions, in the shade of tall trees that remain from an original tropical forest. Cocoa also can also be grown in the shade of trees that have been planted by the farmers themselves. Comparing patches of natural forest with patches of cocoa farm, the researchers found that the two types of habitat supported similar levels of species diversity in birds, lizards and insects. Dr. Power noted that the species found on cocoa farms are not identical to those in natural forests. But compared with the sterility of banana or oil palm plantations, for example, small, naturally shaded cocoa farms are havens of biodiversity. Many researchers suspect that the species harbored in these farmed forests may be helping cocoa fare better against disease than it does in plantations where there is nothing but cocoa for hundreds of acres. "The closer it can be grown to a more or less natural state with some natural predators," Gockowski said, "that's when you're going to really talk about a sustainable system." Dr. Allen M. Young, tropical biologist at the Milwaukee Public Museum, is carrying out an experiment in Costa Rica to test just those ideas. While his data are preliminary, early indications are that the closer the growing environment is to old-growth forest, the better cacao trees fare against insects and fungal diseases. Conversely, the more plantation-like the setting, the more rampant the pests. "We've got an organism here that's basically evolved over millions of years in tropical wet forest," he said. "Let's test the concept, which is new, of putting the rain forest to work and returning cacao to its native habitat." Researchers are also working to fight directly the diseases and pests that typically reduce cocoa yields by 20 percent to 30 percent. Possibilities include enlisting the help of fungi that attack witches'-broom and parasitic wasps that attack insects, said Dr. Harry Evans, plant pathologist at the International Institute of Biological Control in England. Another area of research which remains largely untapped is the breeding of disease-resistant trees. The problem, Evans said, is that "you can breed a resistant wheat in one or two years. It'll take 30 years for cacao." Whatever scientists come up with, said B.K. Matlick, an independent agribusiness consultant specializing in cocoa, it has to work within the realm of "machete technology." Farmers often own just a few acres and make perhaps $500 a year. "You need to give him something that he can do with his machete or sweat equity," Matlick said, "to manage his trees and control pests and diseases without expensive chemicals or a tractor." Meanwhile the hope, among conservation groups and chocolate makers alike, is that sustainably farmed cacao trees -- with all their attendant birds, insects and other species -- can keep up. So far both groups remain optimistic. "There's an excitement," Lunde said. "Here's this ecosystem built around a treat that could be good for the world." Copyright 1998 The New York Times Company --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Me, indecisive? I'm not so sure about that. Date: Tuesday, May 5, 1998 6:48am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746241 To: Nightbird Re: Jury duty (Reply to #746227, Reply to #746212, Reply to #746200, R*) (1 reply) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V > NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't think they patrol too carefully the NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>VI>or beepers any more. And I certainly see p NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>VI>with laptops in the Central Jury Room in Ma NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>VI>out in the central jury room when I want to NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>In the Queens court they were real serious abo NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>use! NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V > NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>They don't try to stop the lawyers in Brooklyn Su NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>say! NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V > NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>What really drives me nuts is when other lawyers NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>payphone, blocking the pay phone while they are u NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>phones. Since I don't have a cell phone I need t NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>Sounds like they are trying to hide their cell phone NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V > NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >Not at all. They are standing in FRONT of the booths, NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >to the booths! Drives me completely nuts. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>Easy enough to clear them away. Step over near the door an NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>like an ambulance siren. That usually gets them moving. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>(Sorry... couldn't help myself.) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ROFTL! NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>They will all stumble over each other trying to hand out thei NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>the "victims" . :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Sounds like my friend's boss. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>--- NI>VI>NI>VI>It's the occupational disease of ALL plaintiff's attorneys. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>(Remember--I'm a defendant's attorney!) NI>VI>NI>Yes, you poor person :) NI>VI>NI>--- NI>VI>It takes a thick skin, that's for sure! :) NI>I would gather that it does. NI>--- But I got one! :) Date: Tuesday, May 5, 1998 6:49am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746242 To: Steve C Re: Chocoholics Beware 1/2 (Reply to #746235) SC>For my fellow chocoholics. Is this real? A shortage of chocolate? OH NO!!!!! Date: Tuesday, May 5, 1998 12:37pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 746246 To: Vida Re: Jury duty (Reply to #746241, Reply to #746227, Reply to #746212, R*) (1 reply) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V > VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't think they patrol too carefully VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>VI>or beepers any more. And I certainly se VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>VI>with laptops in the Central Jury Room in VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>VI>out in the central jury room when I want VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>In the Queens court they were real serious VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>SF>use! VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V > VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>They don't try to stop the lawyers in Brooklyn VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>say! VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V > VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>What really drives me nuts is when other lawye VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>payphone, blocking the pay phone while they ar VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>VI>phones. Since I don't have a cell phone I nee VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SF>Sounds like they are trying to hide their cell ph VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V > VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >Not at all. They are standing in FRONT of the booth VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >to the booths! Drives me completely nuts. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>Easy enough to clear them away. Step over near the door VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>like an ambulance siren. That usually gets them moving. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>(Sorry... couldn't help myself.) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ROFTL! VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>They will all stumble over each other trying to hand out t VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>the "victims" . :) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Sounds like my friend's boss. :) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>--- VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>It's the occupational disease of ALL plaintiff's attorneys. :) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>(Remember--I'm a defendant's attorney!) VI>NI>VI>NI>Yes, you poor person :) VI>NI>VI>NI>--- VI>NI>VI>It takes a thick skin, that's for sure! :) VI>NI>I would gather that it does. VI>NI>--- VI>But I got one! :) If you say so... :) --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Fax is stranger than fiction. Date: Wednesday, May 6, 1998 6:08am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746250 To: Nightbird Re: Jury duty (Reply to #746246, Reply to #746241, Reply to #746227, R*) (1 reply) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>They will all stumble over each other trying to hand ou NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>the "victims" . :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Sounds like my friend's boss. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>--- NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>It's the occupational disease of ALL plaintiff's attorneys. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>(Remember--I'm a defendant's attorney!) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Yes, you poor person :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>--- NI>VI>NI>VI>It takes a thick skin, that's for sure! :) NI>VI>NI>I would gather that it does. NI>VI>NI>--- NI>VI>But I got one! :) NI>If you say so... :) It's an occuaptional necessity. :) Date: Wednesday, May 6, 1998 12:01pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 746255 To: Vida Re: Jury duty (Reply to #746250, Reply to #746246, Reply to #746241, R*) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>They will all stumble over each other trying to hand VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>the "victims" . :) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Sounds like my friend's boss. :) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>--- VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>It's the occupational disease of ALL plaintiff's attorneys VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>(Remember--I'm a defendant's attorney!) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Yes, you poor person :) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>--- VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>It takes a thick skin, that's for sure! :) VI>NI>VI>NI>I would gather that it does. VI>NI>VI>NI>--- VI>NI>VI>But I got one! :) VI>NI>If you say so... :) VI>It's an occuaptional necessity. :) But of course :) --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ There's no place like http://www.home.com Date: Wednesday, May 13, 1998 7:32am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746302 To: ** ALL ** Re: Viagara warning Not that any of the manly men who read this list might ever, ever consider using viagra. But this might be of interest to some. Viagra & Poppers: A Lethal Combination > >Philadelphia Gay News - May 1-7, 1998 > >VIAGRA, POPPERS COULD BE LETHAL COMBO > >By Timothy Cwiek > > Manufacturers of Viagra, a new drug prescribed to treat impotence, > >are > >warning people not to take it if they are also using poppers to enhance > >sex. > > "Absolutely, Viagra should not be used in conjuntion with poppers," > >said > >Mariann Caprion, a spokeswoman for Pfizer Inc., which manufactures the > >new > >drug. "If poppers and Viagra are taken together, a precipitous drop in > >blood > >pressure could occur. We don't want that to happen. We want people to > >know > >about this." > > Poppers -- amyl nitrate or butyl nitrite -- are inhaled by some > >people > >during sex to enhance the experience. They can be purchased in many > >commercial-sex establishments without a prescription, but their use as a > > > >recreational drug is illegal in America. > > Caprino said she has contacted AIDS and gay activists around the > >country > >to warn them about the potential risk. A formal warning in Viagra's > >packaging > >insert was not included because of poppers' illegal status, she said. > > But next week, she said, Pfizer Inc. plans to mail warnings to > >8,000 > >doctors across the country. > > "We're doing what we can to get the word out," Caprino said. > > AIDS activist Kiyoshi Kuromiya told PGN he would like to see Pfizer > >Inc. > >do more. > > "People could die, or suffer a stroke, if they combine poppers and > >Viagra," he said last week. > > Kuroyima, executive director of Critical Path AIDS Project, also > >said > >Viagra should be avoided by PWAs taking protease inhibitors. > > "That combination also could hurt people's health, or possibly kill > > > >them," Kuroyima said. "Viagra and protease inhibitors use the same > >metabolic > >pathways in the liver. If used together, that would cause an overdose, > >or > >underdose, of one drug or the other." > > However, Caprino said Pfizer Inc. does not believe Viagra is > >dangerous > >when combined with protease inhibitors. > > "We're aware of that theory," she said. "But our position is that > >an > >adverse event from the combination of Viagra and protease inhibitors > >would be > >highly unlikely. That's what our biochemist researchers tell us." > > FDA spokeswoman Susan Cruzan said the agency is aware of the > >poppers/Viagra combination. > > "So far, no problems have been reported to us, but we're aware of > >the > >potential for harm," she said. > > She said Viagra has been widely available to people since about > >April 15. > >It was tested on 4,500 men over the course of several years, and > >received > >fast-track approval from the FDA after about six months of federal > >scrutiny, > >she said. > > The major side-effects during the testing were headaches, flushing > >of the > >face, and indigestion, Cruzan said. Fewer than 20 percent of test > >clients > >experienced those symptoms, she said. > > > > _________________________________________________________ Date: Wednesday, May 13, 1998 7:36am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746303 To: ** ALL ** Re: Improved domestic partnership (2 replies) While Guilani is frequently attacked by us lefties/liberals for being a conservative, he has to be applauded for making this proposal. Especially since it may hurt his future political prospects in the rest of the country. Subject: Re: *QP*: NYT: Giuliani Proposes Bill to Broaden Rights of Unmarried Couples > New York Times, May 12, 1998 > (http://www.nytimes.com) > Giuliani Proposes Bill to Broaden Rights of Unmarried Couples > By DAN BARRY > NEW YORK -- Mayor Rudolph Giuliani proposed legislation on Monday that > would require the city's government to treat unmarried couples the same as > those who are married, allowing them to continue as tenants in apartments > leased to their partners and insuring their rights to be buried together in a > city-owned cemetery. > The mayor forwarded the legislative proposal late on Monday afternoon to > the City Council, where the measure will be sponsored by Peter Vallone, the > council speaker. With Vallone's support, the proposal is virtually certain to > pass. > Giuliani's proposal, which fulfills a campaign promise he made to gay > rights advocates last year, would give New York City one of the nation's > broadest set of policies regarding domestic partnerships. > It would enshrine into city law the initiatives relating to domestic > partnerships begun by Mayors David Dinkins and Edward Koch, Giuliani's two > immediate predecessors. Those initiatives included granting bereavement leaves > for city employees and visitation rights in city-owned hospitals. > The mayor's proposal would also obligate the city to give registered > domestic partners the same benefits as spouses under the city's future > collective bargaining agreements and would allow the mayor to provide "Good > Samaritan" awards to the domestic partners of uniformed city employees who are > killed in the line of duty. > One gay-rights organization said that the law, which would apply to > heterosexual and homosexual domestic partnerships registered with the city > clerk, would provide greater recognition of the emotional and practical import > of same-sex relationships. > "It would be a psychological and emotional affirmation of our > relationships," said Matt Foreman, the director of the Empire State Pride > Agenda, a gay-rights organization that had worked with the Giuliani > administration in drafting the language of the legislation. > The mayor has already quietly begun to change the rules and regulations > of city agencies to insure equal treatment for registered domestic partners. > For example, the partners of city employees will have the right to be buried > with them in the city-owned Canarsie Cemetery in Brooklyn -- a right > previously given only to spouses. And, like spouses, registered partners will > also be able to represent their companions in challenging tax bills. > The sweeping proposals come at a time when Giuliani is trying to raise > his profile as a potential Republican candidate for higher office. In recent > weeks he has traveled to Michigan, New Mexico and Arizona to speak to rock- > solid Republicans about the strides he has made in reducing crime and cutting > budgets -- but not about his efforts in behalf of gays and lesbians in New > York City. > On Monday, several Republican leaders around the country said that they > were baffled by his proposal. A few said that it reinforced the perception > that the mayor is too liberal for the generally conservative Republicans who > participate in the party's presidential primaries. > "You ask the average Republican on the street who would sponsor that kind > of bill, and 99 percent would say a Democrat," said Chris Baker, the executive > director of the Colorado Republican Party. "For lack of a better term, it's a > very Northeastern Republican bill," he added. "Imagine him trying to campaign > on that kind of legislation down in Alabama. It won't work." > Randy Mastro, the deputy mayor of operations, declined to discuss the > national political implications of the proposal. But he emphasized that the > measure would also benefit heterosexual couples. According to city statistics, > of the 8,700 unmarried couples that have registered with the city clerk's > office since 1992, more than 55 percent are heterosexual. > Mastro said that in submitting the proposal, Giuliani was merely honoring > a commitment he made to the Pride Agenda and other gay-rights organizations to > fight for legislation that would insure equal treatment by the city of > registered domestic partners. That commitment came in mid-October, three weeks > before his re-election. > "What we have done is propose legislation tailored to address those > issues and to provide the same rights, obligations and benefits to registered > domestic partners under the local law as those provided to spouses," Mastro > said. > > ******************************************************* _________________________________________________________ Date: Wednesday, May 13, 1998 9:25am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746310 To: Vida Re: Improved domestic partnership (Reply to #746303) (1 reply) V >While Guilani is frequently attacked by us lefties/liberals for being V >conservative, he has to be applauded for making this proposal. V >Especially since it may hurt his future political prospects in the res V >of the country. I am contually surprised by this man. I don't always agree with him, but I deeply respect the fact that he seems more focused on doing the right thing rather than on feathering his own nest. I believe that the name tags "liberal" and "conservative" are losing their meaning, falling more into the category of "what they are not" rather than "what I am". Typical of the type of confrontational attitude that you would expect of a profession (politicians) that is overstocked with lawyers. (Not a lawyer shot here Vida, just reality.) Heaven forbid both sides should agree!!! How would a lawyer make a living? I shudder to call myself a conservative. I don't need to be associated with that group of assholes. I rather like the Barry Goldwater conservatives. That guy spoke his mind, not the party line. There was a dynamite sound byte of Goldwater at a political rally with Qualye, probably in 1991, and he finishes his speech by turning to Qualye and saying "Now go back to Washington and tell George Bush to talk about ISSUES". --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Wednesday, May 13, 1998 9:25am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746311 To: Vida Re: Improved domestic partnership (Reply to #746303) (1 reply) V >> Giuliani's proposal, which fulfills a campaign promise he made V >to gay V >> rights advocates last year, would give New York City one of the V >nation's Geez is this guy a breath of fresh air after Clinton. Remember some of the great Clinton promises, including gays in the military, moving the American embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, the most honest administration in American history. V >> The mayor's proposal would also obligate the city to give V >registered V >> domestic partners the same benefits as spouses under the city's futu V >> collective bargaining agreements and would allow the mayor to V >provide "Good Mostly I would like to hear more about the registration part. Every priveledge should have a responsibility associated with it. Granting priveledges to generic registed domestic partners supposedly (IMO) is a good idea because it supports a grouping that enhances the stability of the populace. I guess I'm trying to explore the difference between "registration" and "marriage" and more important, the difference between "unregistration" and "divorce". Marriage as we know it today is very much of a contract, not filling out a form. I think that registration won't do the trick unless there is some sort of contractual obligation as well. Don't ask me what I mean, I'm not sure, but that's the general idea. V >> "You ask the average Republican on the street who would sponsor V >that kind V >> of bill, and 99 percent would say a Democrat," said Chris Baker, the V >executive V >> director of the Colorado Republican Party. "For lack of a better V >term, it's a Another thing I'll never understand is how a state like Colorado, which is demographically amongst the "youngest" in the country, and without the religious pressures of a "Utah", generates the weird legislation that it does. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Thursday, May 14, 1998 8:05pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746328 To: Editor Re: Improved domestic partnership (Reply to #746310, Reply to #746303) (1 reply) ED>V >While Guilani is frequently attacked by us lefties/liberals for being ED>V >conservative, he has to be applauded for making this proposal. ED>V >Especially since it may hurt his future political prospects in the res ED>V >of the country. ED>I am contually surprised by this man. I don't always agree with him, but I ED>deeply respect the fact that he seems more focused on doing the right thing ED>rather than on feathering his own nest. I believe that the name tags ED>"liberal" and "conservative" are losing their meaning, falling more into ED>the category of "what they are not" rather than "what I am". Typical of the ED>type of confrontational attitude that you would expect of a ED>profession (politicians) that is overstocked with lawyers. (Not a lawyer ED>shot here Vida, just reality.) Heaven forbid both sides should agree!!! How ED>would a lawyer make a living? That's for sure! :) It's like the old joke I once heard. One lawyer in a small time starves to death. Two lawyers in the same small town make each other rich by suing each other's clients. :) But I don't know about Guilani. I think he is basically a bully and mean spirted at heart. His latest thing with the suggestion of "Taxi free Tuesdays" really annoys me. It's a purely retaliatory move as far as I am concened. He is pissed off that the taxi drivers dared to go on strike on Tuesday and dared to critize him and his administration. Now mind you I thought the taxi strike itself was totally wrong and totally stupid--but as a public official Guilani SHOULD have a thick skin. He doesn't. Similiarly, I thought it was really wrong and stupid for him to refuse Dinkin's invitation to get together for dinner during the Passover/Easter holiday season. There is tremendous racial tension in this city and like it or not Dinkins does have a constituency in the black community. Guilani, on the other hand, has totally alienated the black community. And I believe, in the long run, Guilani's failure to try to heal his breach with the black community will really hurt the city. ED>I shudder to call myself a conservative. I don't need to be associated with ED>that group of assholes. I rather like the Barry Goldwater conservatives. ED>That guy spoke his mind, not the party line. There was a dynamite sound ED>byte of Goldwater at a political rally with Qualye, probably in 1991, and ED>he finishes his speech by turning to Qualye and saying "Now go back to ED>Washington and tell George Bush to talk about ISSUES". Barry Goldwater spoke the Republican party line for the time that he was nominated for the Presidency. But since that time the Republican party has changed. The main change is the rise of the Religious Right, who of course, scare me to death. The political scene now is very complicated. There are varying degrees of "left", "right" and "center". As for my own politics, I describe myself as a "progressive" and a feminist. ED>--- ED> þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Thursday, May 14, 1998 8:22pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746329 To: Editor Re: Improved domestic partnership (Reply to #746311, Reply to #746303) (1 reply) ED>V >> Giuliani's proposal, which fulfills a campaign promise he made ED>V >to gay ED>V >> rights advocates last year, would give New York City one of the ED>V >nation's ED>Geez is this guy a breath of fresh air after Clinton. Remember some of the ED>great Clinton promises, including gays in the military, moving the American ED>embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, the most honest administration in ED>American history. There are things I like about Guilani and things I don't like. Mostly I like the fact that the city is a safer place. I feel safer. But I have to repeat the comments I just made in my previous post re: Guilani the bully. And most importantly and seriously, the total disenfrancement of the black community from his administration is a VERY serious problem! ED>V >> The mayor's proposal would also obligate the city to give ED>V >registered ED>V >> domestic partners the same benefits as spouses under the city's futu ED>V >> collective bargaining agreements and would allow the mayor to ED>V >provide "Good ED>Mostly I would like to hear more about the registration part. Every ED>priveledge should have a responsibility associated with it. Granting ED>priveledges to generic registed domestic partners supposedly (IMO) is a ED>good idea because it supports a grouping that enhances the stability of the ED>populace. I guess I'm trying to explore the difference between ED>"registration" and "marriage" and more important, the difference between ED>"unregistration" and "divorce". Marriage as we know it today is very much ED>of a contract, not filling out a form. I think that registration won't do ED>the trick unless there is some sort of contractual obligation as well. ED>Don't ask me what I mean, I'm not sure, but that's the general idea. That's the interesting part. I have never heard any one discuss what happens when "registered domestic partners" break up. As a person who has gone through two lesbian "divorces" I know first hand that gay and lesbian "marriages" can and do break up. And at the time that my breakups from my former lesbian lovers occurred I was very, very grateful that I did not have to go through a legal divorce in order to break off the relationship. With my last relationship, Gerri, I merely walked out of our apartment one morning. (I mean that quite literally). I spoke to her a few times after I walked out, mainly to give her some items of personal property which I had taken which she claimed she owned. But that was it. With Janet, things were more complicated. But that was because at the time of the break up we were co-owners of a co-op apartment. Prior to purchasing the co-op apartment Janet and I signed a "living together" agreement. I had a friend who is also an attorney actually draft the contract. Then, after our break up I found out that there was no way to force Janet to sale the apartment without starting an expensive law suit. So I just stoped paying the mainteance on the co-op apartment to try to force Janet to sell. Janet finally sold the apartment two years or three years later. And then she retained a lawyer who sent me a letter threatening to sue me for the two or three years back rent. I ended up settling the claim with the lawyer. ED>V >> "You ask the average Republican on the street who would sponsor ED>V >that kind ED>V >> of bill, and 99 percent would say a Democrat," said Chris Baker, the ED>V >executive ED>V >> director of the Colorado Republican Party. "For lack of a better ED>V >term, it's a ED>Another thing I'll never understand is how a state like Colorado, which is ED>demographically amongst the "youngest" in the country, and without the ED>religious pressures of a "Utah", generates the weird legislation that it ED>does. ED>--- ED> þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Friday, May 15, 1998 8:49am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746338 To: Vida Re: Improved domestic partnership (Reply to #746328, Reply to #746310, Reply to #746303) (1 reply) V >But I don't know about Guilani. I think he is basically a bully and V >mean spirted at heart. V > V >His latest thing with the suggestion of "Taxi free Tuesdays" really V >annoys me. It's a purely retaliatory move as far as I am concened. H V >is pissed off that the taxi drivers dared to go on strike on Tuesday V >and dared to critize him and his administration. Now mind you I V >thought the taxi strike itself was totally wrong and totally V >stupid--but as a public official Guilani SHOULD have a thick skin. He V >doesn't. The current crop of taxi drivers is the worst I have ever seen. Did you hear that yesterday one of them deliberately ran down an EMS worker? About a year ago, I had to rescue a blind woman and her guide dog when a cabbie wouldn't yield to her. Damned near ran her down. The cab driver knew what he was doing. You should have seen the look on his face. You are right, he pushes. And the business with the bus ads was wrong. But with regard to these cab drivers, he really isn't asking for more than he would ask of anyone else. More courtesy, better driving habits and a decent amount of insurance. Hack licenses in this city are a joke. You can literally get one without speaking English. Nowadays the humor is wearing off since some of many of these guys are dangerous. I remember the big protest a few years back. They just shut down the city. Damned dangerous. Had there been any kind of emergency, it would have been a catastrophy. V >Similiarly, I thought it was really wrong and stupid for him to refuse V >Dinkin's invitation to get together for dinner during the V >Passover/Easter holiday season. V >There is tremendous racial tension in this city and like it or not V >Dinkins does have a constituency in the black community. Guilani, on V >the other hand, has totally alienated the black community. And I V >believe, in the long run, Guilani's failure to try to heal his breach V >with the black community will really hurt the city. What did you think when he bounced Arafat? V >ED>I shudder to call myself a conservative. I don't need to be associa V >ED>that group of assholes. I rather like the Barry Goldwater conservat V >ED>That guy spoke his mind, not the party line. There was a dynamite s V >ED>byte of Goldwater at a political rally with Qualye, probably in 199 V >ED>he finishes his speech by turning to Qualye and saying "Now go back V >ED>Washington and tell George Bush to talk about ISSUES". V > V >Barry Goldwater spoke the Republican party line for the time that he V >was nominated for the Presidency. But since that time the Republican V >party has changed. The main change is the rise of the Religious Right V >who of course, scare me to death. V > V >The political scene now is very complicated. There are varying degree V >of "left", "right" and "center". As for my own politics, I describe V >myself as a "progressive" and a feminist. I wish I knew what to call myself. I'd call myself a libertarian except that most of the people in that party act like they arrived on flying saucers. In the 70s, I worked for a guy who described the Libertarian party as the place where the ultra right and the ultra left meet, usually on the far side of the moon. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Friday, May 15, 1998 8:49am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746339 To: Vida Re: Improved domestic partnership (Reply to #746329, Reply to #746311, Reply to #746303) V >ED>Mostly I would like to hear more about the registration part. Every V >ED>priveledge should have a responsibility associated with it. Grantin V >ED>priveledges to generic registed domestic partners supposedly (IMO) V >ED>good idea because it supports a grouping that enhances the stabilit V >ED>populace. I guess I'm trying to explore the difference between V >ED>"registration" and "marriage" and more important, the difference be V >ED>"unregistration" and "divorce". Marriage as we know it today is ver V >ED>of a contract, not filling out a form. I think that registration wo V >ED>the trick unless there is some sort of contractual obligation as we V > V >ED>Don't ask me what I mean, I'm not sure, but that's the general idea V > V >That's the interesting part. I have never heard any one discuss what V >happens when "registered domestic partners" break up. V > V >As a person who has gone through two lesbian "divorces" I know first V >hand that gay and lesbian "marriages" can and do break up. And at the V >time that my breakups from my former lesbian lovers occurred I was V >very, very grateful that I did not have to go through a legal divorce V >in order to break off the relationship. This is the problem. Its like I've always said, we are lacking in definition. The opponents of this kind of legislation make a big deal out of this, and they are right. Sham marriages of convenience are handled through the law, but it took a long time. A "registration of convenience" is going to be even tougher to deal with. There are so many contradictory things pulling and tugging here. The classic marriage definition is totally oriented towards unemployable females and procreation. It worse than doesn't work, it sends a message that helps no one but the lazy. Yesterday I was shocked to find out that a high ranking executive working for one of my customers is leaving her job to become a full time mother. In a million years I never would have picked this woman as one who would let "her husband take care of her". But she did, and like it or not, this happens every day. Too many women "talk the talk" but won't "walk the walk". One of the pleasantest week's of my life in the last 20 years was when my wife was out of the country and I got to spend two weeks working part time and taking care of my kids. But that's another discussion for another time. V >With Janet, things were more complicated. But that was because at the V >time of the break up we were co-owners of a co-op apartment. Prior to V >purchasing the co-op apartment Janet and I signed a "living together" V >agreement. I had a friend who is also an attorney actually draft the V >contract. Then, after our break up I found out that there was no way t V >force Janet to sale the apartment without starting an expensive law V >suit. So I just stoped paying the mainteance on the co-op apartment t V >try to force Janet to sell. Janet finally sold the apartment two year V >or three years later. And then she retained a lawyer who sent me a V >letter threatening to sue me for the two or three years back rent. I V >ended up settling the claim with the lawyer. Sheesh, don't you just hate lawyers sometimes? When I was 18 and just bought my first car, my then girlfriend thought it was a bad deal and insisted that I should refuse to pick up the car or pay for it. I had entered the deal with my eyes open, made the deal, shaken the guys hand, and felt as bound as with a 100 page contract. She felt that with nothing in writing, I didn't owe him anything. She was moving into a political career, was a campaign worker for the local Democratic reform candidate, and later became a lawyer. Many years later we hear that generation, through Al Gore, say that something is not wrong because there was "no controlling legal authority". The difference between what is right and what you can prove is right is one that only a lawyer or a used car salesman could love. Sorry... don't mean to beat on lawyers. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Saturday, May 16, 1998 8:26am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746370 To: Editor Re: Improved domestic partnership (Reply to #746338, Reply to #746328, Reply to #746310, R*) (1 reply) ED>The current crop of taxi drivers is the worst I have ever seen. Did you ED>hear that yesterday one of them deliberately ran down an EMS worker? About ED>a year ago, I had to rescue a blind woman and her guide dog when a cabbie ED>wouldn't yield to her. Damned near ran her down. The cab driver knew what ED>he was doing. You should have seen the look on his face. ED>You are right, he pushes. And the business with the bus ads was wrong. But ED>with regard to these cab drivers, he really isn't asking for more than he ED>would ask of anyone else. More courtesy, better driving habits and a decent ED>amount of insurance. Hack licenses in this city are a joke. You can ED>literally get one without speaking English. Nowadays the humor is wearing ED>off since some of many of these guys are dangerous. I remember the big ED>protest a few years back. They just shut down the city. Damned dangerous. ED>Had there been any kind of emergency, it would have been a catastrophy. Listen, I am not about to go around defending taxi cab drivers. That's Bob's job since he works for the insurance company that insures 90% of the taxi cab drivers in the city. I think his proposals regarding the taxis are clearly right. I fully agree with you that taxi cab drivers need to be civil, need to drive safely and need to carry more than the minimum 25/50 policy of insurance. But on the other hand, the cab drivers have an absoulte free speech right to PROTEST Guilani's crack down. Of course, they are not going to like them. The proposals are going to cost them money. They will have to pay fines. They will have to pay the increased premimums for insurance policies with higher limits of liability. So what I think Guilani should have done is to simply say: "I am right, you are wrong. I am not going to back down. And if you don't like it, then get out of the cab business." But his proposal of the "Taxi free Tuesdays" and his recent signing of an "Emergency decree" allowing livery drivers to pick up street fares are motivated by a pure personal vendetta, as far as I am concerened. ED>V >Similiarly, I thought it was really wrong and stupid for him to refuse ED>V >Dinkin's invitation to get together for dinner during the ED>V >Passover/Easter holiday season. ED>V >There is tremendous racial tension in this city and like it or not ED>V >Dinkins does have a constituency in the black community. Guilani, on ED>V >the other hand, has totally alienated the black community. And I ED>V >believe, in the long run, Guilani's failure to try to heal his breach ED>V >with the black community will really hurt the city. ED>What did you think when he bounced Arafat? I didn't really pay much attention to that. But there is no equivalency here. Arafat is not a local political figure. He is an international figure. As mayor of the city of New York, Guilani has to be the mayor for ALL the people of New York. The fact that he has totally pissed off the black community of the city means that he has failed to do his job. ED>V >ED>I shudder to call myself a conservative. I don't need to be associa ED>V >ED>that group of assholes. I rather like the Barry Goldwater conservat ED>V >ED>That guy spoke his mind, not the party line. There was a dynamite s ED>V >ED>byte of Goldwater at a political rally with Qualye, probably in 199 ED>V >ED>he finishes his speech by turning to Qualye and saying "Now go back ED>V >ED>Washington and tell George Bush to talk about ISSUES". ED>V > ED>V >Barry Goldwater spoke the Republican party line for the time that he ED>V >was nominated for the Presidency. But since that time the Republican ED>V >party has changed. The main change is the rise of the Religious Right ED>V >who of course, scare me to death. ED>V > ED>V >The political scene now is very complicated. There are varying degree ED>V >of "left", "right" and "center". As for my own politics, I describe ED>V >myself as a "progressive" and a feminist. ED>I wish I knew what to call myself. I'd call myself a libertarian except ED>that most of the people in that party act like they arrived on flying ED>saucers. In the 70s, I worked for a guy who described the Libertarian party ED>as the place where the ultra right and the ultra left meet, usually on the ED>far side of the moon. Well Bob describes himself as a libertarian, so you are in good company. :) ED>--- ED> þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Saturday, May 16, 1998 9:34am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746373 To: ** ALL ** Re: More on Viagara This article appeared on the National Law Journal Litigation Express! which I receive in my e mail via Netscape Direct. I must say I was very upset about the fact that the FDA approved the release of Viagara with so little human testing. What's the justification for that? It's one thing to give expediated treatment to drugs that combat AIDS and cancer. In those cases a human life is at stake. It is justifable to take a potential risk of later side effects to try to save a life. But as far as I know, no man has ever died of impotence. So guys, the final line appears to be: if you are tempted to try Viagara, don't! It doesn't appear to me that it has been adequately tested. Heaven knows what kind of side effects will appear in 5 years time, in 10 years time, etc! Next Fen-Phen? Viagra May Have Legal Downside Insurance breaches, side effects raise some concerns. By Victoria Slind-Flor and Bob Van Voris NATIONAL LAW JOURNAL STAFF REPORTERS The National Law Journal (p. A01) Monday, May 18, 1998 GIVEN VIAGRA'S EXPLOSIVE entry into the pharmaceutical market, it's no wonder that hordes of lawyers are taking a hard look at the anti-impotence drug. To begin with, insurance companies and insurance lawyers are asking themselves how much is enough, as the companies decide whether--and how often--to reimburse patients using Viagra. At the same time, plaintiffs' lawyers and other observers question whether the early tsunami of Viagra prescriptions, following on the heels of quick Food and Drug Administration approval of the drug, will result in injury for some who use it. "The question of how much sex a person is going to have has always been a personal question and not a medical question, unless it's pathological," says Alice Philipson, a Berkeley, Calif., sole practitioner. She anticipates that insurers will look to published research on sexual frequency in deciding how much Viagra they have a duty to reimburse. "What that means is that if Doctor Ruth says American men of 45 have sex four times per week, then an insurance company would be unduly restrictive to pay for one pill per week," says Ms. Philipson. "And a patient would be excessive if he demands seven pills per week." Others predict insurers will be less generous. A single dose of the drug costs $10. "I would be very surprised if the insurance companies don't take a hard line [on reimbursement]," says Martin D. Katz, chairman of the insurance coverage group at Troup Meisinger Steuber & Pasich L.L.P., in Los Angeles. But competitive pressures could lead health insurers to advertise the relative availability of Viagra under their plans, much as they currently do with coverage of mental health and preventive care for babies. "In the end, it will be a question of how soft the market is for health insurance coverage," says Mr. Katz. "The issue around who gets the drug is the issue around who controls and who gets to have sex," says Emily Doskow, an Oakland, Calif., sole practitioner who specializes in AIDS and HIV insurance coverage issues. She fears insurers may deny coverage to men with AIDS, for example, in the belief they "shouldn't be having sex." Part of the reimbursement issue turns on whether potential patients are defined as having a disease. "Who gets to define a disease?" asks Prof. Lars Noah, an expert in food and drug law at the University of Florida, College of Law. "If you can call it a disease, its insurance status changes [and] its regulatory status changes." Insurers will want to make sure patients seeking Viagra are truly impotent and not just seeking better sex lives, says San Francisco sole practitioner Gary R. Cloutier. So, for now, the big rush "absolutely" is to get into the doctor's office now and get that impotence diagnosis entered on the chart, he says. Redux, Redux? Meanwhile, plaintiffs' lawyers predict that at least some of the huge numbers of men rushing to take Viagra will eventually end up in their offices with injuries caused by the drug. "This is Redux all over again," says Paul Rheingold, of Rheingold, Valet & Rheingold, in New York, referring to the diet drug that was recalled in September after a study claimed that as many as a third of patients using the drug may have suffered heart valve damage. Mr. Rheingold, a veteran of pharmaceutical mass-tort cases, who represents several thousand fen-phen and Redux clients, says he recognizes it is too early to tell if any significant number of patients will be injured by Viagra. But, he says, he sees troubling parallels in the speed with which Viagra was approved, in the small number of test subjects and in the frenzied efforts of patients to get the drug. Viagra was granted priority status by the FDA, resulting in an approval time of six months. According to Pfizer Labs, the maker of Viagra, the drug was tested on 3,700 patients in clinical trials. Only 550 were tested for longer than one year. Larry D. Sasich, a pharmacist and research analyst with Public Citizen, a nonprofit consumer group, says FDA efforts to speed drug approval in recent years mean that drugs, including Viagra, are more often introduced in the U.S. than in other countries. "More Americans are taking more drugs first than at any time in the past," he says. "I guess, you know, time will tell," says Mariann Caprino, a spokeswoman for Pfizer. "We certainly maintain that it's a safe drug, which the data bear out." But the first warning flags already are flying. On May 1, the American Academy of Ophthalmology issued a statement warning Viagra users about potential side effects affecting vision. "We need to do some studies about the long-term effects of taking Viagra," said Academy spokesman, Dr. Michael F. Marmor, in the statement. Pfizer, in reaction, characterized the drug's effects on vision, including color tinting, light sensitivity and blurring, as "mild and transient" at recommended doses. It says it conducted "rigorous visual function tests" at higher doses. Much of the enthusiasm for Viagra is understandable. Before Viagra was approved in March, the options for impotent men were limited to penile injections, penile suppositories and implant surgery, all of which can have serious side-effects. And Viagra is much less invasive and cumbersome. Researchers report that some men falsely claimed they suffered from erectile dysfunction so they could enter the clinical trials. Patients Not Limited But Pfizer has done little to limit demand for the drug, say observers. The drug's labeling says only that Viagra is intended to treat "erectile dysfunction," without providing any further definition. Ms. Caprino says around 30 million American men suffer from some form of erectile dysfunction. The drug's labeling recommends that doctors take a thorough history and conduct a physical exam before prescribing Viagra. But there have been reports of doctors prescribing the drug over the Internet. And even some mainstream physicians are dashing off dozens of prescriptions each day. The process, Mr. Rheingold worries, does not sufficiently protect the public. "We're the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff rather than the fence at the top." $ Date: Saturday, May 16, 1998 11:26am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746377 To: Vida Re: Improved domestic partnership (Reply to #746370, Reply to #746338, Reply to #746328, R*) (1 reply) V >But on the other hand, the cab drivers have an absoulte free speech V >right to PROTEST Guilani's crack down. Of course, they are not going V >to like them. The proposals are going to cost them money. They will V >have to pay fines. They will have to pay the increased premimums for V >insurance policies with higher limits of liability. Yup.... on all counts. They have the absolute right to protest, but they do not have the right to shut down the city. I got caught in that last two protests of theirs. About 12 years ago they shut down the LIE during the morning rush, and about 8 years ago they simply blocked every interseciton from City Hall to 42nd Street. That's not a protest, that's an attack. And as for the higher liability premiums, you know better than anyone that insurance is like a book making operation. If accidents are up 40-50%, someone has to pay for it, and these lunatics in yellow seem like the most deserving candidate. Did I tell you about the time this cab driver raced a blind woman, guide dog and all, to an intersection? I had to pull her back to keep her from getting killed. The crowd was infuriated, screamed at the cabbie, beat on the cab. He didn't give a shit. Just kept crawling forward through the intersection. V >So what I think Guilani should have done is to simply say: "I am V >right, you are wrong. I am not going to back down. And if you don't V >like it, then get out of the cab business." But his proposal of the V >"Taxi free Tuesdays" and his recent signing of an "Emergency decree" V >allowing livery drivers to pick up street fares are motivated by a pur V >personal vendetta, as far as I am concerened. But you see it isn't between Guiliani and the cab drivers. When he talks, it has to be for the city. And if the cabs disappear, its his job to provide that service to the citizenry. If its illegal, someone should get a court order. Although getting a court order to stop the city from responding to a major threat should make for an interesting hearing. V >ED>V >Similiarly, I thought it was really wrong and stupid for him to V >ED>V >Dinkin's invitation to get together for dinner during the V >ED>V >Passover/Easter holiday season. V >ED>V >There is tremendous racial tension in this city and like it or n V >ED>V >Dinkins does have a constituency in the black community. Guilan V >ED>V >the other hand, has totally alienated the black community. And V >ED>V >believe, in the long run, Guilani's failure to try to heal his b V >ED>V >with the black community will really hurt the city. V > V >ED>What did you think when he bounced Arafat? V > V >I didn't really pay much attention to that. V > V >But there is no equivalency here. Arafat is not a local political V >figure. He is an international figure. OK... stick to Dinkins. Would you sit down and have dinner with someone who called you the things Dinkins called Guiliani? As I recall, the first salvo was from Dinkins. V > As mayor of the city of New York, Guilani has to be the mayor for ALL V >the people of New York. The fact that he has totally pissed off the V >black community of the city means that he has failed to do his job. What does that have to do with Dinkins? Dinkins isn't the black community. He is a political hack. V >ED>I wish I knew what to call myself. I'd call myself a libertarian ex V >ED>that most of the people in that party act like they arrived on flyi V >ED>saucers. In the 70s, I worked for a guy who described the Libertari V >ED>as the place where the ultra right and the ultra left meet, usually V >ED>far side of the moon. V > V >Well Bob describes himself as a libertarian, so you are in good V >company. :) I guess its a start. There is something wrong with the underlying system we've developed. We have capitulated control to the media. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Saturday, May 16, 1998 6:33pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746381 To: Editor Re: Improved domestic partnership (Reply to #746377, Reply to #746370, Reply to #746338, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >But on the other hand, the cab drivers have an absoulte free speech ED>V >right to PROTEST Guilani's crack down. Of course, they are not going ED>V >to like them. The proposals are going to cost them money. They will ED>V >have to pay fines. They will have to pay the increased premimums for ED>V >insurance policies with higher limits of liability. ED>Yup.... on all counts. They have the absolute right to protest, but they do ED>not have the right to shut down the city. I got caught in that last two ED>protests of theirs. About 12 years ago they shut down the LIE during the ED>morning rush, and about 8 years ago they simply blocked every interseciton ED>from City Hall to 42nd Street. That's not a protest, that's an attack. Yeah I have so those protests also. But as far as I have heard they simply kept off the streets and refused to pick up any fares on Tuesday last week. That seems like a reasonable form of protest to me. > And as for the higher liability premiums, you know better than anyone that ED>insurance is like a book making operation. If accidents are up 40-50%, ED>someone has to pay for it, and these lunatics in yellow seem like the most ED>deserving candidate. Did I tell you about the time this cab driver raced a ED>blind woman, guide dog and all, to an intersection? I had to pull her back ED>to keep her from getting killed. The crowd was infuriated, screamed at the ED>cabbie, beat on the cab. He didn't give a shit. Just kept crawling forward ED>through the intersection. Insurance companies are profit making corporations. A higher policy limit means a greater risk for them. So any time they issue a policy of insurance with anything more than the minimum coverage they charge more. And of course, "the experience rating" of each driver gets factored in. And I am sure Bob's employer factors in the bad driving habits of many cab drivers when calcuating the premimum to be charged. ED>V >So what I think Guilani should have done is to simply say: "I am ED>V >right, you are wrong. I am not going to back down. And if you don't ED>V >like it, then get out of the cab business." But his proposal of the ED>V >"Taxi free Tuesdays" and his recent signing of an "Emergency decree" ED>V >allowing livery drivers to pick up street fares are motivated by a pur ED>V >personal vendetta, as far as I am concerened. ED>But you see it isn't between Guiliani and the cab drivers. When he talks, ED>it has to be for the city. And if the cabs disappear, its his job to ED>provide that service to the citizenry. If its illegal, someone should get a ED>court order. Although getting a court order to stop the city from ED>responding to a major threat should make for an interesting hearing. Garbage. He is just lashing out because they stood up to him, as for as I am concerned. ED>V >ED>V >Similiarly, I thought it was really wrong and stupid for him to ED>V >ED>V >Dinkin's invitation to get together for dinner during the ED>V >ED>V >Passover/Easter holiday season. ED>V >ED>V >There is tremendous racial tension in this city and like it or n ED>V >ED>V >Dinkins does have a constituency in the black community. Guilan ED>V >ED>V >the other hand, has totally alienated the black community. And ED>V >ED>V >believe, in the long run, Guilani's failure to try to heal his b ED>V >ED>V >with the black community will really hurt the city. ED>V > ED>V >ED>What did you think when he bounced Arafat? ED>V > ED>V >I didn't really pay much attention to that. ED>V > ED>V >But there is no equivalency here. Arafat is not a local political ED>V >figure. He is an international figure. ED>OK... stick to Dinkins. Would you sit down and have dinner with someone who ED>called you the things Dinkins called Guiliani? As I recall, the first salvo ED>was from Dinkins. Who cares where the first salvo came from! The bottom line is if I was a politican, which I am not, I would have sat down and had dinner with Dinkins. ED>V > As mayor of the city of New York, Guilani has to be the mayor for ALL ED>V >the people of New York. The fact that he has totally pissed off the ED>V >black community of the city means that he has failed to do his job. ED>What does that have to do with Dinkins? Dinkins isn't the black community. ED>He is a political hack. Of course Dinkins isn't the whole black community. But he is a MODERATE representative of the community. If Guilani can't reach out to him and bury the hatchet then it spells deep, deep trouble for the city as for as I am concerned. ED>V >ED>I wish I knew what to call myself. I'd call myself a libertarian ex ED>V >ED>that most of the people in that party act like they arrived on flyi ED>V >ED>saucers. In the 70s, I worked for a guy who described the Libertari ED>V >ED>as the place where the ultra right and the ultra left meet, usually ED>V >ED>far side of the moon. ED>V > ED>V >Well Bob describes himself as a libertarian, so you are in good ED>V >company. :) ED>I guess its a start. There is something wrong with the underlying system ED>we've developed. We have capitulated control to the media. Now that's a whole other ball of wax! As far as I am concerned liberatarianism is not realistic. In the real world you need government to control corporate greed. Just look at the post I just posted which I entitled "More on Viagara". To release a drug on to the market for a non life threatening disease with only a six months human trial is an absolute outrage, as far as I am concerned! And on top of that, the trial was on LESS than 4,000 men. That's total garbage testing, as far as I am concerned. Of course, here we had a government agency (The FDA) that was supposed to be policing the drug industry. Clearly the FDA was asleep on the wheel in this case! Date: Saturday, May 16, 1998 10:10pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746383 To: Vida Re: Improved domestic partnership (Reply to #746381, Reply to #746377, Reply to #746370, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>Yup.... on all counts. They have the absolute right to protest, but V >ED>not have the right to shut down the city. I got caught in that last V >ED>protests of theirs. About 12 years ago they shut down the LIE durin V >ED>morning rush, and about 8 years ago they simply blocked every inter V >ED>from City Hall to 42nd Street. That's not a protest, that's an atta V > V >Yeah I have so those protests also. V >But as far as I have heard they simply kept off the streets and refuse V >to pick up any fares on Tuesday last week. That seems like a V >reasonable form of protest to me. The next one they are threatening is a major tie up. V >ED>What does that have to do with Dinkins? Dinkins isn't the black com V >ED>He is a political hack. V > V >Of course Dinkins isn't the whole black community. But he is a MODERAT V >representative of the community. If Guilani can't reach out to him an V >bury the hatchet then it spells deep, deep trouble for the city as for V >as I am concerned. I'm afraid not. He is a political hack through and through. Right or wrong, Sharpton is more representative of the black community than Dinkins. V >ED>I guess its a start. There is something wrong with the underlying s V >ED>we've developed. We have capitulated control to the media. V > V >Now that's a whole other ball of wax! V > V >As far as I am concerned liberatarianism is not realistic. In the rea V >world you need government to control corporate greed. And who is to control the government? --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Sunday, May 17, 1998 8:50am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746384 To: Editor Re: Improved domestic partnership (Reply to #746383, Reply to #746381, Reply to #746377, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >ED>Yup.... on all counts. They have the absolute right to protest, but ED>V >ED>not have the right to shut down the city. I got caught in that last ED>V >ED>protests of theirs. About 12 years ago they shut down the LIE durin ED>V >ED>morning rush, and about 8 years ago they simply blocked every inter ED>V >ED>from City Hall to 42nd Street. That's not a protest, that's an atta ED>V > ED>V >Yeah I have so those protests also. ED>V >But as far as I have heard they simply kept off the streets and refuse ED>V >to pick up any fares on Tuesday last week. That seems like a ED>V >reasonable form of protest to me. ED>The next one they are threatening is a major tie up. Well that's clearly crosses the line. So Guilani should tell them that if they block traffic he will send out the traffic cops to issue them all a summons and then do so! Livery cab drivers are even WORSE drivers than cabbies. And less regulated. So giving them permission to pick up street fares isn't going to bring any great improvement in life! ED>V >ED>What does that have to do with Dinkins? Dinkins isn't the black com ED>V >ED>He is a political hack. ED>V > ED>V >Of course Dinkins isn't the whole black community. But he is a MODERAT ED>V >representative of the community. If Guilani can't reach out to him an ED>V >bury the hatchet then it spells deep, deep trouble for the city as for ED>V >as I am concerned. ED>I'm afraid not. He is a political hack through and through. Right ED>or wrong, Sharpton is more representative of the black community than ED>Dinkins. Sharpton is the more radical representative of the community. Which is why I say that if Guilani can't make nice-nice to Dinkins we are in deep trouble. And of course Dinkins is a political hack. But so is Guilani! ED>V >ED>I guess its a start. There is something wrong with the underlying s ED>V >ED>we've developed. We have capitulated control to the media. ED>V > ED>V >Now that's a whole other ball of wax! ED>V > ED>V >As far as I am concerned liberatarianism is not realistic. In the rea ED>V >world you need government to control corporate greed. ED>And who is to control the government? The way I see things is that we need a very delicate system of checks and balances. Corporate interests can always use their political clout to reign in the government when government agencies overstep their bounds. Likewise, the government needs to be able to reign in corporations when they act irresponsibly. But in order for this system of checks and balances to work you need a fairly strong government. Actually, as more and more American corporations get bought out by foreign corporations this changes the whole nature of the equasion.(Look at Columbia records and movies--now owned by Sony. And look at the recent Chrysler-Mercedes/Benz deal!) As a result of the growing multi-national character of business our American government will be less and less able to control and reign in corporations. Which is why I forsee that by 2050 we will probably have some kind of worldwide government. Date: Sunday, May 17, 1998 6:07pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746392 To: Vida Re: Improved domestic partnership (Reply to #746384, Reply to #746383, Reply to #746381, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>V >ED>Yup.... on all counts. They have the absolute right to protes V >ED>V >ED>not have the right to shut down the city. I got caught in tha V >ED>V >ED>protests of theirs. About 12 years ago they shut down the LIE V >ED>V >ED>morning rush, and about 8 years ago they simply blocked every V >ED>V >ED>from City Hall to 42nd Street. That's not a protest, that's a V >ED>V > V >ED>V >Yeah I have so those protests also. V >ED>V >But as far as I have heard they simply kept off the streets and V >ED>V >to pick up any fares on Tuesday last week. That seems like a V >ED>V >reasonable form of protest to me. V > V >ED>The next one they are threatening is a major tie up. V > V >Well that's clearly crosses the line. So Guilani should tell them tha V >if they block traffic he will send out the traffic cops to issue them V >all a summons and then do so! I think he is threatening them with tickets, and if they don't move, arrest. V >Livery cab drivers are even WORSE drivers than cabbies. And less V >regulated. So giving them permission to pick up street fares isn't V >going to bring any great improvement in life! I wonder. Living out here in Queens, I usually use one of three cab services. The range from the best to the worst is pretty great, but even the worst of the worst is better than the current crop of yellow cab drivers. V >Actually, as more and more American corporations get bought out by V >foreign corporations this changes the whole nature of the V >equasion.(Look at Columbia records and movies--now owned by Sony. An V >look at the recent Chrysler-Mercedes/Benz deal!) I thought the buyout went in the other direction, with Chrysler doing the buying. But I haven't followed that. V >As a result of the growing multi-national character of business our V >American government will be less and less able to control and reign in V >corporations. Which is why I forsee that by 2050 we will probably hav V >some kind of worldwide government. And I think you are an optimist. The disparity of outlook is too great. I don't see how that could happen in that timeframe, short of a war or other major even ala Star Trek, invention of warp drive and arrival of Vulcans. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Monday, May 18, 1998 6:31am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746399 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: It's only a joke? Remember this is only a joke, only a joke, only a joke. Or is it? >> MICROSOFT TESTS NUCLEAR DEVICE AT SECRET REDMOND LAB >>REDMOND (BNN)--World leaders reacted with stunned silence as Microsoft >>Corp. (MSFT) conducted an underground nuclear test at a secret facility >>in eastern Washington state. The device, exploded at 9:22 am PDT (1622 >>GMT/12:22 pm EDT) today, was timed to coincide with talks between >>Microsoft and the US Department of Justice over possible antitrust action. >> >>"Microsoft is going to defend its right to market its products by any >>and all necessary means," said Microsoft CEO Bill Gates. "Not that I'm >>anti-government" he continued, "but there would be few tears shed in the >>computer industry if Washington were engulfed in a bath of nuclear >>fire." >> >>Scientists pegged the explosion at around 100 kilotons. "I nearly >>dropped my latte when I saw the seismometer" explained University >>of Washington geophysicist Dr. Whoops Blammover, >>"At first I thought it was Mt.Rainier, and I was thinking, damn, >>there goes the mountain bike vacation." >> >>In Washington, President Clinton announced the US Government would >>boycott all Microsoft products indefinitely. Minutes later, the President >>reversed his decision. "We've tried sanctions since lunchtime, and they don't >>work," said the President. Instead, the administration will initiate a policy >>of "constructive engagement" with Microsoft. >> >>Microsoft's Chief Technology Officer Nathan Myrhvold said the test >>justified Microsoft's recent acquisition of the Hanford Nuclear >>Reservation from the US Government. Not only did Microsoft acquire >>"kilograms of weapons grade plutonium" in the deal, said Myrhvold, >>"but we've finally found a place to dump those millions of unsold >>copies of Microsoft Bob." Myrhvold warned users not to replace Microsoft NT >>products with rival operating systems. "I can neither confirm nor >>deny the existence of a radioisotope thermoelectric generator inside >>of every Pentium IImicroprocessor," said Myrhvold, "but anyone who >>installs an OS written by a bunch of long-hairs on the Internet is going >>to get what they deserve." >> >>The existence of an RTG in each Pentium II microprocessor would explain >>why the microprocessors, made by the Intel Corporation, run so hot. The >>Intel chips "put out more heat than they draw in electrical power" said Prof. >>E. E. Thymes of MIT. "This should finally dispell those stories about cold >>fusion." >> >>Rumors suggest a second weapons development project is underway in >>California, headed by Microsoft rival Sun Microsystems. "They're doing >>all of the development work in Java," said one source close to the project. >>The development of a delivery system is said to be holding up progress. >>"Write once, bomb anywhere is still a dream at the moment." >> >>Meanwhile, in Cupertino, California, Apple interim-CEO Steve Jobs was >>rumored to be in discussion with Oracle CEO Larry Ellison about >>deploying Apple's Newton technology against Microsoft. "Newton was the biggest >>bomb the Valley had developed in years," said one hardware engineer. "I'd >>hate to be around when they drop that product a second time." Date: Monday, May 18, 1998 6:43am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746400 To: Editor Re: Improved domestic partnership (Reply to #746392, Reply to #746384, Reply to #746383, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >ED>V >ED>Yup.... on all counts. They have the absolute right to protes ED>V >ED>V >ED>not have the right to shut down the city. I got caught in tha ED>V >ED>V >ED>protests of theirs. About 12 years ago they shut down the LIE ED>V >ED>V >ED>morning rush, and about 8 years ago they simply blocked every ED>V >ED>V >ED>from City Hall to 42nd Street. That's not a protest, that's a ED>V >ED>V > ED>V >ED>V >Yeah I have so those protests also. ED>V >ED>V >But as far as I have heard they simply kept off the streets and ED>V >ED>V >to pick up any fares on Tuesday last week. That seems like a ED>V >ED>V >reasonable form of protest to me. ED>V > ED>V >ED>The next one they are threatening is a major tie up. ED>V > ED>V >Well that's clearly crosses the line. So Guilani should tell them tha ED>V >if they block traffic he will send out the traffic cops to issue them ED>V >all a summons and then do so! ED>I think he is threatening them with tickets, and if they don't move, ED>arrest. And how is going to implement that? The bottom line is: He has to work within the law. And uphold the law. ED>V >Livery cab drivers are even WORSE drivers than cabbies. And less ED>V >regulated. So giving them permission to pick up street fares isn't ED>V >going to bring any great improvement in life! ED>I wonder. Living out here in Queens, I usually use one of three cab ED>services. The range from the best to the worst is pretty great, but even ED>the worst of the worst is better than the current crop of yellow cab ED>drivers. Well I live in Brooklyn, so I have extensive experience with livery cabs also! I have had some real nightmare experiences with the car service drivers! Bob and I also got busted last October when a car service driver made an illegal left hand turn and was stopped by the cops--it turned out the plates on the livery cab were from a stolen car! And I have litterally prayed when a crazy livery car driver creened down Atlantic Avenue at a break neck spped and then made a very wide turn onto Hicks Street from Atlantic Avenue. On the other hand, I frequently hail cabs from the courthouse or the office and have never really had a bad experience with yellow cabs when I went to go to and from Manhattan. The only really bad experiences I have had with yellow cabs is when I have hailed a yellow cab in Manhattan then they refuse to take me back to Brooklyn! ED>V >Actually, as more and more American corporations get bought out by ED>V >foreign corporations this changes the whole nature of the ED>V >equasion.(Look at Columbia records and movies--now owned by Sony. An ED>V >look at the recent Chrysler-Mercedes/Benz deal!) ED>I thought the buyout went in the other direction, with Chrysler doing the ED>buying. But I haven't followed that. My understanding is that after the deal it will be the Germans that will be the controlling parties. ED>V >As a result of the growing multi-national character of business our ED>V >American government will be less and less able to control and reign in ED>V >corporations. Which is why I forsee that by 2050 we will probably hav ED>V >some kind of worldwide government. ED>And I think you are an optimist. The disparity of outlook is too great. I ED>don't see how that could happen in that timeframe, short of a war or other ED>major even ala Star Trek, invention of warp drive and arrival of Vulcans. ED>--- ED> þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Monday, May 18, 1998 9:15am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746410 To: Vida Re: Improved domestic partnership (Reply to #746400, Reply to #746392, Reply to #746384, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>I think he is threatening them with tickets, and if they don't move V >ED>arrest. V > V >And how is going to implement that? The bottom line is: He has to V >work within the law. And uphold the law. You think that refusing to unblock an intersection isn't sufficient cause for arrest? V >On the other hand, I frequently hail cabs from the courthouse or the V >office and have never really had a bad experience with yellow cabs whe V >I went to go to and from Manhattan. The only really bad experiences I V >have had with yellow cabs is when I have hailed a yellow cab in V >Manhattan then they refuse to take me back to Brooklyn! Now that's one of those things that really pisses me off. These guys are granted a HUGE priveledge in return for delivering a service. When they pull that shit, its too much. I've come home, late, late, late, at JFK more than once, and had to fight to get a cab to take me home. What's weird, is that the old line cabbies think this is stupid. They tell me that there is no better way to lose money than to search for a possibly non-existant trip to Manhattan. V >ED>V >Actually, as more and more American corporations get bought out V >ED>V >foreign corporations this changes the whole nature of the V >ED>V >equasion.(Look at Columbia records and movies--now owned by Sony V >ED>V >look at the recent Chrysler-Mercedes/Benz deal!) V > V >ED>I thought the buyout went in the other direction, with Chrysler doi V >ED>buying. But I haven't followed that. V > V >My understanding is that after the deal it will be the Germans that V >will be the controlling parties. I'll check on it. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Monday, May 18, 1998 9:15am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746411 To: Vida Re: The New Republic (1 reply) Bit of a scandal at TNR. Seems that one of their prize reporters was caught making up stories. He started out by adding made up anecdotes, but in the last few months, fabricated two entire stories outright. They printed a long retraction of two stories, plus a mea culpa, and are examining all 41 articles this guy wrote in the last 3+ years. I'm sending you the URL since one of the fabricated stories was one I referred you to. http://magazines.enews.com/magazines/tnr/current/ourreaders060198.html --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Tuesday, May 19, 1998 5:46am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746429 To: Editor Re: Improved domestic partnership (Reply to #746410, Reply to #746400, Reply to #746392, R*) ED>V >ED>I think he is threatening them with tickets, and if they don't move ED>V >ED>arrest. ED>V > ED>V >And how is going to implement that? The bottom line is: He has to ED>V >work within the law. And uphold the law. ED>You think that refusing to unblock an intersection isn't sufficient cause ED>for arrest? In terms of giving out a ticket, sure. In terms of hauling somebody off to jail, I have NO idea. ED>V >On the other hand, I frequently hail cabs from the courthouse or the ED>V >office and have never really had a bad experience with yellow cabs whe ED>V >I went to go to and from Manhattan. The only really bad experiences I ED>V >have had with yellow cabs is when I have hailed a yellow cab in ED>V >Manhattan then they refuse to take me back to Brooklyn! ED>Now that's one of those things that really pisses me off. These guys are ED>granted a HUGE priveledge in return for delivering a service. When they ED>pull that shit, its too much. I've come home, late, late, late, at JFK more ED>than once, and had to fight to get a cab to take me home. What's weird, is ED>that the old line cabbies think this is stupid. They tell me that there is ED>no better way to lose money than to search for a possibly non-existant trip ED>to Manhattan. Yes, but I live in Brooklyn Heights for crying out loud. And I always make a point of telling the cabbie that I live right over the bridge. I guess they just don't believe me or something cause I still frequently can't get a cabbie to take me home! ED>V >ED>V >Actually, as more and more American corporations get bought out ED>V >ED>V >foreign corporations this changes the whole nature of the ED>V >ED>V >equasion.(Look at Columbia records and movies--now owned by Sony ED>V >ED>V >look at the recent Chrysler-Mercedes/Benz deal!) ED>V > ED>V >ED>I thought the buyout went in the other direction, with Chrysler doi ED>V >ED>buying. But I haven't followed that. ED>V > ED>V >My understanding is that after the deal it will be the Germans that ED>V >will be the controlling parties. ED>I'll check on it. Ok, great. Let me know either way. ED>--- ED> þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Tuesday, May 19, 1998 5:48am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746430 To: Editor Re: The New Republic (Reply to #746411) ED>Bit of a scandal at TNR. Seems that one of their prize reporters was caught ED>making up stories. He started out by adding made up anecdotes, but in the ED>last few months, fabricated two entire stories outright. They printed a ED>long retraction of two stories, plus a mea culpa, and are examining all 41 ED>articles this guy wrote in the last 3+ years. ED>I'm sending you the URL since one of the fabricated stories was one I ED>referred you to. And TNR doesn't have fact checks on staff? How could something like this happen? I'll have to check out the url when I have a chance. Date: Tuesday, May 26, 1998 7:50am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746505 To: ** ALL ** Re: Oregon Shooting (1 reply) I really don't want to resurrect those tired gun control arguments, but isn't anyone other than me bothered by how this kid slipped through the system? He was an angry kid, in detention several times, tortured animals (that one is like a red flag), and last and certainly not least, the day before the incident, he was sent home from school because he showed up with a loaded gun. Sent home from school. I'll bet the kid could hardly stand the severity of the punishment. In New York, take one drink too many and drive home, and you could spend a year in jail. Certainly a night in jail looks likely. And they send this kid home for carrying a gun And then the Sherriff gets out there and defends the man who did this, saying it was the right action, and I'm beginning to feel sympathy for the Sherriff's department for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, then, zowie..... Same kid who shot up a cafeteria, killed his parents, and then planted explosives all over his house, smuggles a KNIFE into the interrogation room and attacks a cop? Considering this kids past, and recent past, wouldn't you think that the local fuzz would be a tad more careful? I think the underlying crime here was criminal laziness on the part of the local authorities. This kid wasn't giving off exactly subtle signals, and then the knife incident just reiterates the depth of the sloppiness. But, somehow, I suspect that the blame will never fall where it should. The blame will rest entirely on violence in the media and the NRA, and no one will mention the responsibility of the parents of the locals, both of whom displayed outstandingly sucky judgement. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Tuesday, May 26, 1998 8:29pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746512 To: Editor Re: Oregon Shooting (Reply to #746505) ED>I really don't want to resurrect those tired gun control arguments, but ED>isn't anyone other than me bothered by how this kid slipped through the ED>system? What disturbed me most about this case and this kid is the discription of all the fire arms in his home. Including, but not limited to grenades ?!? And this kid killed his own parents, apparently in cold blood, before heading off to school to get his 'revenge' or whatever. Obviously the rash of kills opening fire and killing their classmates is very troublesome. IIt signals, to my mind, a total breakdown in our cuture at large. Which is not to take away from the individual responsibility of the kids as, well as the responsiblity of the parents and the school. But the problem is much deeper than just one kid, one family and one school Additionally, I hate to say it, but part of me thinks it is pure racism that these cases are getting attention. When a white kid kills white kids that's news. When black kids get killed everyone just looks the other way and says "Yo hum". Date: Friday, May 29, 1998 5:11am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746536 To: ** ALL ** Re: The End of CUNY (2 replies) It is with great sadness that I have read the news about the vote of the CUNY Board of Trustees regarding the phasing out of remedial classes in the CUNY senior colleges. Now, don't get me wrong I am all for having tougher standards at CUNY and ending "social promotion" at ALL levels of the education system, most especially in the elementary levels. But I just don't understand how remedial classes lower the standards or have anything to do with ending "social promotion". I remember very clearly that at Queens College the remedial courses were 0 credits. So my feeling is REGULAR classes should be rigourous and professors should expect students in those classes to perform on a college level. But remedial classes should be designed to help students get the skills necessary so that they can sucessfully complete a college education. There are a lot of reasons why this thing upsets me so much. One of them is personal. I happen to be more or less, arthmetically illiterate. I have a real mental block when it comes to working with figures. At the high school level I used to drive my Alegbra, Geometry and Trig teachers absolutely NUTS. I understood the concepts, set up the problems and equasions all right but always got the wrong number because I made stupid mistakes in addition, subtraction, multiplication and division. At the time that I went to Queens College undergrad (the early 1970's) the only required class (if you passed the English entrance exam) was English I. The other required classes were determined by your major. There was no math entrance exam. There was no "core curiculum" of college math, college level sciences, college level social students/history. So I just avoided taking college science because I wanted to maintain a good average to get into a good law school. (I figured I would get a B at best in a science class. Most likely a C.) And there is no way in hell I would have passed a college level math class without remedial math. And even with remedial math I would have had to have been tutored up my you know what to pass. And I think of myself as a highly intelligent person. So where would I be today if I had been born 20 years, 25 years later and had to face A college level math class with no remedial math? The other reason why this upsets me so much is, of course, social/political. I see a deepening of class divisions in this country, a growing "underclass" of poor people, who can not obtain decent jobs in our post industrial economy. I think that this is a very, very dangerous situation. The Beatles "Revolution" keeps just playing in my head. And add on top of this the racial divide, which in this city also is intimately connected with the class divide and you have a REAL disaster on your hands. I frequnetly go shopping on Fulton mall in downtown Brooklyn and can feel the hate, dispair and anger in the air. I can see it on the faces of the jurors who serve in Brooklyn Supreme court. It is a serious, serious problem. Date: Friday, May 29, 1998 10:49am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 746542 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746536) (2 replies) VI>It is with great sadness that I have read the news about the vote of the VI>CUNY Board of Trustees regarding the phasing out of remedial classes in VI>the CUNY senior colleges. Now, don't get me wrong I am all for having VI>tougher standards at CUNY and ending "social promotion" at ALL levels of VI>the education system, most especially in the elementary levels. But I VI>just don't understand how remedial classes lower the standards or have VI>anything to do with ending "social promotion". I remember very clearly VI>that at Queens College the remedial courses were 0 credits. So my VI>feeling is REGULAR classes should be rigourous and professors should VI>expect students in those classes to perform on a college level. But VI>remedial classes should be designed to help students get the skills VI>necessary so that they can sucessfully complete a college education. VI>There are a lot of reasons why this thing upsets me so much. One of VI>them is personal. I happen to be more or less, arthmetically VI>illiterate. I have a real mental block when it comes to working with VI>figures. At the high school level I used to drive my Alegbra, Geometry VI>and Trig teachers absolutely NUTS. I understood the concepts, set up VI>the problems and equasions all right but always got the wrong number VI>because I made stupid mistakes in addition, subtraction, multiplication VI>and division. At the time that I went to Queens College undergrad (the VI>early 1970's) the only required class (if you passed the English VI>entrance exam) was English I. The other required classes were VI>determined by your major. There was no math entrance exam. There was VI>no "core curiculum" of college math, college level sciences, college VI>level social students/history. So I just avoided taking college science VI>because I wanted to maintain a good average to get into a good law VI>school. (I figured I would get a B at best in a science class. Most VI>likely a C.) And there is no way in hell I would have passed a college VI>level math class without remedial math. And even with remedial math I VI>would have had to have been tutored up my you know what to pass. And I VI>think of myself as a highly intelligent person. So where would I be VI>today if I had been born 20 years, 25 years later and had to face A VI>college level math class with no remedial math? VI>The other reason why this upsets me so much is, of course, VI>social/political. I see a deepening of class divisions in this country, VI>a growing "underclass" of poor people, who can not obtain decent jobs in VI>our post industrial economy. I think that this is a very, very VI>dangerous situation. The Beatles "Revolution" keeps just playing in my VI>head. And add on top of this the racial divide, which in this city also VI>is intimately connected with the class divide and you have a REAL VI>disaster on your hands. I frequnetly go shopping on Fulton mall in VI>downtown Brooklyn and can feel the hate, dispair and anger in the air. VI>I can see it on the faces of the jurors who serve in Brooklyn Supreme VI>court. It is a serious, serious problem. Is it really the end of Cuny, or something that should have happened a long time ago. I went to a community college, which in my opinion is just barly one step above high school. Personally, it really sucks when you are paying for school & have to take remerial classes. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ --T-A+G-L-I+N-E--+M-E-A+S-U-R+I-N-G+--G-A+U-G-E-- Date: Saturday, May 30, 1998 9:06am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746547 To: Nightbird Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746542, Reply to #746536) (2 replies) NI>Is it really the end of Cuny, or something that should have happened a NI>long time ago. NI>I went to a community college, which in my opinion is just barly one NI>step above high school. NI>Personally, it really sucks when you are paying for school & have to NI>take remerial classes. NI>--- Of course it sucks that they have to teach remedial classes in CUNY. It would be better if kids learned this material in High School. But the sad truth is our schools have been failing. So CUNY is the last chance to get these kids to learn this material. Date: Saturday, May 30, 1998 12:25pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 746550 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746547, Reply to #746542, Reply to #746536) (2 replies) VI>NI>Is it really the end of Cuny, or something that should have happened a VI>NI>long time ago. VI>NI>I went to a community college, which in my opinion is just barly one VI>NI>step above high school. VI>NI>Personally, it really sucks when you are paying for school & have to VI>NI>take remerial classes. VI>NI>--- VI>Of course it sucks that they have to teach remedial classes in CUNY. VI>It would be better if kids learned this material in High School. But VI>the sad truth is our schools have been failing. So CUNY is the last VI>chance to get these kids to learn this material. But, if the teachers don't teach them correctly in high school, they get suck going to a community college(Overpriced high school). If they haven't learned by the time they get to college, there's a big problem. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Unable to locate Coffee -- Operator Halted! Date: Sunday, May 31, 1998 9:11am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746553 To: Nightbird Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746550, Reply to #746547, Reply to #746542, R*) (2 replies) N > N >VI>NI>Is it really the end of Cuny, or something that should have happ N >VI>NI>long time ago. N >VI>NI>I went to a community college, which in my opinion is just barly N >VI>NI>step above high school. N >VI>NI>Personally, it really sucks when you are paying for school & hav N >VI>NI>take remerial classes. N >VI>NI>--- N > N >VI>Of course it sucks that they have to teach remedial classes in CUNY N >VI>It would be better if kids learned this material in High School. B N >VI>the sad truth is our schools have been failing. So CUNY is the las N >VI>chance to get these kids to learn this material. N > N >But, if the teachers don't teach them correctly in high school, they g N >suck going to a community college(Overpriced high school). N > N >If they haven't learned by the time they get to college, there's a big N >problem. First of all, I was of the impression that the move was to put restrict remedial classes to community colleges in an attempt to restore schools like CCNY to the status they once held. In the mid to late 60s, an engineering degree from CCNY was one of the most prestigious in the country. It was a bitch to get into, and even harder to stay in once you got there. But, if someone hasn't learned how to read and write (which I understand to be the main problem) after 12-13 years of FREE education, don't you think its time to try to press them a bit? On the other hand, you are right, that if you "paid" for your 12-13 years of education (via taxes), and still can't read or write, asking for a refund isn't such a bad idea. I think remedial education is a great idea, I just resent the name games that politicians play. If the idea is to help those who need more help, let's call it that. Instead, by giving these course on a college level, by the mere dispersion of energy and resources (if nothing else) you are watering down the education of those who are qualified in the first place. Also, the synergy you develop by grouping together a group of above average intelligence, high achievers, is severly diminished by introducing remedial education. I still think the underlying root is that this country has a prejudice against non-white collar workers. Somehow being a lawyer or an accountant is "better" than being a brick layer, a carpenter or, heaven forbid, a garbage collector. Personally, I have the greatest respect for someone who can do something I can't. Be it writing contracts or hauling garbage. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Sunday, May 31, 1998 9:11am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746554 To: ** ALL ** Re: Memories (4 replies) Lots of interesting stuff in this article. Anyone else see the parallel to our ongoing arguments about affirmative action, or am I imagining it. -------------------------- Feature-German Town Wrestles with Nazi Legacy Reuters 30-MAY-98 By Deborah Cole ORANIENBURG, Germany, May 31 (Reuters) - When German secretary Karis Nass moved into a home bordered by the former Sachsenhausen concentration camp and built for a Nazi SS officer, she often woke up with nightmares. After more than 20 years in the house where she and her husband have built a small swimming pool, a fish pond and cultivated a blooming garden, Nass, 50, says she has finally exorcised those ghosts. Germany's Office for Historical Preservation is planning to place 60 houses once occupied by Hitler's elite SS officers on a list of historically preserved buildings. Nass and her neighbours are afraid their homes will become a morbid tourist attraction, a shrine for neo-Nazis. ``I can't bear to live in a house with a sign over it saying 'Here lived a mass murderer','' Nass said. ``I live in the house of a criminal, but if my home is given that designation then sooner or later people are going to start thinking I am guilty too.'' Like many Germans of her generation, Nass says she has struggled to come to terms with her country's genocidal legacy. At the same time she distances herself from the crimes committed before she was born. Historians say Germany has a responsibility to preserve as many sites as possible that force people to confront the country's past under the Third Reich in an effort to guard against forgetting the atrocities. But Nass, who was born three years after the war's end in Soviet-occupied eastern Germany, said she has worked hard to educate her children about the Holocaust and contends the historians' plans in her neighbourhood go too far. ``The SS officer who lived in this house got off scot free from what I hear,'' Nass said. ``Why should I have to bear his guilt for him? That is simply not fair.'' HISTORICAL PRESERVATION The houses in question are modest, two-storey structures with sloping red roofs and uniform wooden shutters framing the windows. While no signs would be hung on the houses denoting their former occupiers, the Brandenburg State Office for Historical Preservation said this would probably be indicated on maps for tourists available at the concentration camp memorial. In addition, once the preservation order is in place, any renovation work on the houses would have to mirror the original architecture. Dieter Huebener, a historian at the preservation office, said he can understand homeowners' resistance to the plans but argued that the state has an obligation to prevent the area surrounding Sachsenhausen from changing beyond recognition. ``Part of that effort means showing that the concentration camp was not an isolated island,'' Huebener said. ``It is important to show the 'normal' lives the soldiers led when they left the camp's gates behind.'' The Office of Historical Preservation held talks with homeowners this month but failed to reach a compromise. Huebener said the state will move to give the houses protected status in some form later this year. Curators at the Sachsenhausen memorial say they support the office's plans to show the role the town of Oranienburg played in the Holocaust and shatter the myth that ordinary citizens were unaware of what was happening in Hitler's camps. ``These pretty, single-family homes are part of the history,'' said Horst Seferens, spokesman of the Sachsenhausen foundation. ``We often come across people who want to suppress or ignore the history of Oranienburg during the war but it is essential that we show the horror of what happened here, in some cases with the complete knowledge of the people of Oranienburg.'' About 200,000 slave labourers were interned in Sachsenhausen between 1936 and 1945. Nearly half of them were murdered or perished under barbarous conditions. About 10 percent were Jews. The rest were Jehovah's Witnesses, Gypsies, political prisoners, homosexuals and prisoners of war. RESIDENTS FEAR INFLUX OF NEO-NAZIS Nass and some of her neighbours have organised a citizens' initiative to fight the historians' preservation plans and have drawn the support of many residents in Oranienburg. Many in the area fear a historical monument in their neighbourhood will draw even more tourists to their narrow, leafy streets, eager to see how Hitler's top soldiers lived as family men. ``These historians are terrorising people who had nothing to do with that terrible history,'' said a 64-year-old woman who declined to give her name. ``People here are afraid -- afraid of neo-Nazis, nervous that the place will be overrun with tourists and their garbage and noise.'' Some in Oranienburg say they fear an influx of neo-Nazis drawn to one of the few places left they can point to as an authentic relic of Hitler's era. ``The neo-Nazis would be thrilled if they made these houses into historically preserved buildings,'' Nass said, adding that small groups of skinheads had threatened neighbours who posted signs against the plans in front of their homes. Berlin has made an effort to hide such ``authentic sites,'' including the exact location of Hitler's bunker between the Potsdamer Platz and the Brandenburg Gate, for fear of creating shrines for skinheads. Nass says there are other ways to preserve history. She plants flowers every spring at the Sachsenhausen memorial and has hosted camp survivors invited to mark the anniversary of the camp's liberation. ``I took my children to the camp before they could walk -- they grew up with the history of Sachsenhausen,'' Nass said. ``There is not much more that the average person can do to come to terms with the Holocaust.'' --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Sunday, May 31, 1998 10:58am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746557 To: Nightbird Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746550, Reply to #746547, Reply to #746542, R*) (2 replies) NI>VI>NI>Is it really the end of Cuny, or something that should have happened a NI>VI>NI>long time ago. NI>VI>NI>I went to a community college, which in my opinion is just barly one NI>VI>NI>step above high school. NI>VI>NI>Personally, it really sucks when you are paying for school & have to NI>VI>NI>take remerial classes. NI>VI>NI>--- NI>VI>Of course it sucks that they have to teach remedial classes in CUNY. NI>VI>It would be better if kids learned this material in High School. But NI>VI>the sad truth is our schools have been failing. So CUNY is the last NI>VI>chance to get these kids to learn this material. NI>But, if the teachers don't teach them correctly in high school, they get NI>suck going to a community college(Overpriced high school). I'm not so sure that this is true. There's a certain self selection process going on with deciding to enroll in community college, or whatever. Mandatory education laws force kids to go to school, or at least theortically do so. Only kids that are some what motivated to learn or to get ahead make the decision to enroll in CUNY. It is these motivated kids, who want to make themselves better, who are going to end up getting thrown away in the garbage heap, I'm afraid. NI>If they haven't learned by the time they get to college, there's a big NI>problem. I agree on this point 100%. There IS a big problem because these kids haven't learned this material at an earlier stage. Date: Sunday, May 31, 1998 11:36am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746558 To: Editor Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746553, Reply to #746550, Reply to #746547, R*) (1 reply) ED>N > ED>N >VI>NI>Is it really the end of Cuny, or something that should have happ ED>N >VI>NI>long time ago. ED>N >VI>NI>I went to a community college, which in my opinion is just barly ED>N >VI>NI>step above high school. ED>N >VI>NI>Personally, it really sucks when you are paying for school & hav ED>N >VI>NI>take remerial classes. ED>N >VI>NI>--- ED>N > ED>N >VI>Of course it sucks that they have to teach remedial classes in CUNY ED>N >VI>It would be better if kids learned this material in High School. B ED>N >VI>the sad truth is our schools have been failing. So CUNY is the las ED>N >VI>chance to get these kids to learn this material. ED>N > ED>N >But, if the teachers don't teach them correctly in high school, they g ED>N >suck going to a community college(Overpriced high school). ED>N > ED>N >If they haven't learned by the time they get to college, there's a big ED>N >problem. ED>First of all, I was of the impression that the move was to put restrict ED>remedial classes to community colleges in an attempt to restore schools ED>like CCNY to the status they once held. In the mid to late 60s, an ED>engineering degree from CCNY was one of the most prestigious in the ED>country. It was a bitch to get into, and even harder to stay in once you ED>got there. But, if someone hasn't learned how to read and write (which I ED>understand to be the main problem) after 12-13 years of FREE education, ED>don't you think its time to try to press them a bit? On the other hand, you ED>are right, that if you "paid" for your 12-13 years of education (via ED>taxes), and still can't read or write, asking for a refund isn't such a bad ED>idea. My understanding is that the community colleges will still offer some remedial classes in the summer, but that these are also going to be drastically restricted and cut back. I still don't see what remedial classes have to do with the prestige of an engineering degree from CCNY. Of course, a person can't take any of the engineering classses unless he or she can perform well in the higher mathematics. So I would say that unless a person can pull at least a B+ or A- in calculus they have no business in enrolling in classes in the engineering department. And I have no problems with the Engineering Department setting these kinds of standards. But isn't this mixing things up? Isn't possible or conceivable that a kid that might need to take remedial math might go on to pull an A in calculus and As in engineering? You can have very high standards in your regular college course and still have remedial classes. I could live with your idea of restricing remedial classes to the community college level--provided that a person who is enable to receive an Associates Degree from the community college could transfer to the Senior colleges. (And remedial classes at the community colleges should NOT count for any credit toward that Associates Degree!) ED>I think remedial education is a great idea, I just resent the name games ED>that politicians play. If the idea is to help those who need more help, ED>let's call it that. Instead, by giving these course on a college level, by ED>the mere dispersion of energy and resources (if nothing else) you are ED>watering down the education of those who are qualified in the first place. ED>Also, the synergy you develop by grouping together a group of above average ED>intelligence, high achievers, is severly diminished by introducing remedial ED>education. How do remedial classes water down the rest of the classes offered at the college level? The only people who enroll in remedial classes are those who need them. At Brooklyn College in the late 1980's they had entrance exams in math, English and science. They also had a 'core curriculum' which required you to take a certain number of science, math and English classes in order to receive a BA. If you didn't pass the entrance exam in any of the areas I just mentioned then you were required to take remedial classes in that area (and there were several levels of remedial classes offered actually). These remedial classes had 0 credits so they didn't count to your degree. And you couldn't go on to take the required 'core curriculum' classes until you passed the last 'gate keeper' remedial course. So given this system how do the remedial classes function to drag down the rest of the class? In case you are wondering why I know this sytem so well, my ex lover Jerri received her BA with an English major from Brooklyn College in 1990. And I was with her the whole time she went through the school and ghost wrote most of her term papers. Believe me, it was not an easy program. ED>I still think the underlying root is that this country has a prejudice ED>against non-white collar workers. Somehow being a lawyer or an accountant ED>is "better" than being a brick layer, a carpenter or, heaven forbid, a ED>garbage collector. Personally, I have the greatest respect for someone who ED>can do something I can't. Be it writing contracts or hauling garbage. I don't think this kind of class prejudice has anything to do with what is going on here. But as a kid from a working class background, I agree with you 100% that this kind of prejudice exists and is very strong. Date: Sunday, May 31, 1998 11:42am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746559 To: Editor Re: Memories I (Reply to #746554) (1 reply) ED>Lots of interesting stuff in this article. Anyone else see the parallel to ED>our ongoing arguments about affirmative action, or am I imagining it. I read the piece and I really don't see the connections between this piece and affirmative action. Maybe you can clarify where you see the connections more. In the meantime, I do see some really interesting points that are raised in this piece so I will spin those pieces off in one or two seperate posts. ED>-------------------------- ED>Feature-German Town Wrestles with Nazi Legacy Date: Sunday, May 31, 1998 11:48am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746560 To: Editor Re: Memories II (Reply to #746554) I am going to edit out this article to just quote those portions of the article that I would like to discuss. Let's see if we can get something going here folks. things have been dull, dull, dull here at AH! ED>-------------------------- ED>Feature-German Town Wrestles with Nazi Past ED>By Deborah Cole ED>ORANIENBURG, Germany, May 31 (Reuters) - ED>Dieter Huebener, a historian at the preservation office, said he can ED>understand homeowners' resistance to the plans (to have their homes listed as historical landmarks) but argued that the state ED>has an obligation to prevent the area surrounding Sachsenhausen from ED>changing beyond recognition. ED>``Part of that effort means showing that the concentration camp was not an ED>isolated island,'' Huebener said. ``It is important to show the 'normal' ED>lives the soldiers led when they left the camp's gates behind.'' (ommitted sections) ED>Curators at the Sachsenhausen memorial say they support the office's plans ED>to show the role the town of Oranienburg played in the Holocaust and ED>shatter the myth that ordinary citizens were unaware of what was happening ED>in Hitler's camps. ED>``These pretty, single-family homes are part of the history,'' said Horst ED>Seferens, spokesman of the Sachsenhausen foundation. ED>``We often come across people who want to suppress or ignore the history of ED>Oranienburg during the war but it is essential that we show the horror of ED>what happened here, in some cases with the complete knowledge of the people ED>of Oranienburg.'' Date: Sunday, May 31, 1998 11:57am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746561 To: Editor Re: Memories III (Reply to #746554) (1 reply) This deserves a seperate discussion and thread I believe ED>-------------------------- ED>Feature-German Town Wrestles with Nazi Legacy ED>Reuters ED>30-MAY-98 ED>By Deborah Cole ED>ORANIENBURG, Germany, May 31 (Reuters) - When German secretary Karis Nass ED>moved into a home bordered by the former Sachsenhausen concentration camp ED>and built for a Nazi SS officer, she often woke up with nightmares. (ommitted portions) ED>RESIDENTS FEAR INFLUX OF NEO-NAZIS Nass and some of her neighbours have ED>organised a citizens' initiative to fight the historians' preservation ED>plans and have drawn the support of many residents in Oranienburg. ED>Many in the area fear a historical monument in their neighbourhood will ED>draw even more tourists to their narrow, leafy streets, eager to see how ED>Hitler's top soldiers lived as family men. ED>``These historians are terrorising people who had nothing to do with that ED>terrible history,'' said a 64-year-old woman who declined to give her name. ED>``People here are afraid -- afraid of neo-Nazis, nervous that the place ED>will be overrun with tourists and their garbage and noise.'' ED>Some in Oranienburg say they fear an influx of neo-Nazis drawn to one of ED>the few places left they can point to as an authentic relic of Hitler's ED>era. ED>``The neo-Nazis would be thrilled if they made these houses into ED>historically preserved buildings,'' Nass said, adding that small groups of ED>skinheads had threatened neighbours who posted signs against the plans in ED>front of their homes. ED>Berlin has made an effort to hide such ``authentic sites,'' including the ED>exact location of Hitler's bunker between the Potsdamer Platz and the ED>Brandenburg Gate, for fear of creating shrines for skinheads. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------- I most admit this is the most disturbing point to this article! :( Date: Sunday, May 31, 1998 12:03pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746562 To: Editor Re: Memories IV (Reply to #746554) One more spin off. One more seperate thread, hopefully. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- ED>Feature-German Town Wrestles with Nazi Legacy ED>Reuters ED>30-MAY-98 ED>By Deborah Cole ED>ORANIENBURG, Germany, May 31 (Reuters) - When German secretary Karis Nass ED>moved into a home bordered by the former Sachsenhausen concentration camp ED>and built for a Nazi SS officer, she often woke up with nightmares. (ommitted portions) ED>``I can't bear to live in a house with a sign over it saying 'Here lived a ED>mass murderer','' Nass said. ED>``I live in the house of a criminal, but if my home is given that ED>designation then sooner or later people are going to start thinking I am ED>guilty too.'' ED>Like many Germans of her generation, Nass says she has struggled to come to ED>terms with her country's genocidal legacy. At the same time she distances ED>herself from the crimes committed before she was born. ED>Historians say Germany has a responsibility to preserve as many sites as ED>possible that force people to confront the country's past under the Third ED>Reich in an effort to guard against forgetting the atrocities. ED>But Nass, who was born three years after the war's end in Soviet-occupied ED>eastern Germany, said she has worked hard to educate her children about the ED>Holocaust and contends the historians' plans in her neighbourhood go too ED>far. ED>``The SS officer who lived in this house got off scot free from what I ED>hear,'' Nass said. ``Why should I have to bear his guilt for him? That is ED>simply not fair.'' (Ommitted portions) ED>Nass says there are other ways to preserve history. She plants flowers ED>every spring at the Sachsenhausen memorial and has hosted camp survivors ED>invited to mark the anniversary of the camp's liberation. ED>``I took my children to the camp before they could walk -- they grew up ED>with the history of Sachsenhausen,'' Nass said. ``There is not much more ED>that the average person can do to come to terms with the Holocaust.'' ED>--- ED> þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Sunday, May 31, 1998 1:17pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746568 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746558, Reply to #746553, Reply to #746550, R*) (1 reply) V >I still don't see what remedial classes have to do with the prestige o V >an engineering degree from CCNY. Of course, a person can't take any o V >the engineering classses unless he or she can perform well in the V >higher mathematics. So I would say that unless a person can pull at V >least a B+ or A- in calculus they have no business in enrolling in V >classes in the engineering department. And I have no problems with th V >Engineering Department setting these kinds of standards. Its simple. The pot isn't infinitely big. The school has a mission statement and x dollars to achieve that mission. Adding remedial courses under the same umbrella dilutes the mission, bad enough, but also dilutes the dollars. I really don't have anything against remedial courses per se, I just object to mixing it with a traditional college environment. When I graduated from high school, if you couldn't get into CCNY, you had the option of spending two years at Hunter, or BCC, or KCC, or whatever, and then trying again. CCNY had a clear cut mission with a student body to match. V >I could live with your idea of restricing remedial classes to the V >community college level--provided that a person who is enable to V >receive an Associates Degree from the community college could transfer V >to the Senior colleges. (And remedial classes at the community V >colleges should NOT count for any credit toward that Associates Degree That's the way it used to work, and both the community colleges and the "traditional" colleges were better off for it. There were some minimal entrance standards for the community colleges, but I could live with fiddling with that. V >In case you are wondering why I know this sytem so well, my ex lover V >Jerri received her BA with an English major from Brooklyn College in V >1990. And I was with her the whole time she went through the school V >and ghost wrote most of her term papers. Believe me, it was not an V >easy program. And in case you are wondering why I'm familiar with the old community college program, it is because as a student at Bronx High School of Science, thanks to some bueraucratic mopery and dopery, we were measured by one ruler inside the school and another outside. So, with an 85 average, I had SAT scores in the top 1%, but I was competing with "normal" high schools and couldn't qualify for admission at CCNY. A friend of mine, at a "traditional" high school, had SAT scores about 400 points below mine, but easily qualified CCNY. V >ED>I still think the underlying root is that this country has a prejud V >ED>against non-white collar workers. Somehow being a lawyer or an acco V >ED>is "better" than being a brick layer, a carpenter or, heaven forbid V >ED>garbage collector. Personally, I have the greatest respect for some V >ED>can do something I can't. Be it writing contracts or hauling garbag V > V >I don't think this kind of class prejudice has anything to do with wha V >is going on here. But as a kid from a working class background, I V >agree with you 100% that this kind of prejudice exists and is very V >strong. I never thought of it as "class" but I guess it is. But this country has a strong prejudice agains people who work with their hands. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Sunday, May 31, 1998 1:17pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746569 To: Vida Re: Memories I (Reply to #746559, Reply to #746554) (1 reply) V >ED>Lots of interesting stuff in this article. Anyone else see the para V >ED>our ongoing arguments about affirmative action, or am I imagining i V > V >I read the piece and I really don't see the connections between this V >piece and affirmative action. Maybe you can clarify where you see the V >connections more. V > V >In the meantime, I do see some really interesting points that are V >raised in this piece so I will spin those pieces off in one or two V >seperate posts. I don't have it in front of me, but I remember the quote something like "how long should we feel guilty, we weren't even there". --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Sunday, May 31, 1998 1:17pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746570 To: Vida Re: Memories III (Reply to #746561, Reply to #746554) (1 reply) V >ED>Berlin has made an effort to hide such ``authentic sites,'' includi V >ED>exact location of Hitler's bunker between the Potsdamer Platz and t V >ED>Brandenburg Gate, for fear of creating shrines for skinheads. V >---------------------------------------------------------------------- V >--------------------------------- V >I most admit this is the most disturbing point to this article! :( I really don't know what to make of this. On one hand, it has been 50 years, and the (West) German government was so strongly pro Israel that it sometimes hurt. So I want to say "let it be". But you can't "let it be". People just can't believe the kind of shit people are capable of doing to other people. I watched "Escape from Sobridor(sp?)" last night, and after all of these years of watching this kind of movie, I'm still stunned. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Sunday, May 31, 1998 3:08pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 746573 To: Editor Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746553, Reply to #746550, Reply to #746547, R*) ED>N > ED>N >VI>NI>Is it really the end of Cuny, or something that should have happ ED>N >VI>NI>long time ago. ED>N >VI>NI>I went to a community college, which in my opinion is just barly ED>N >VI>NI>step above high school. ED>N >VI>NI>Personally, it really sucks when you are paying for school & hav ED>N >VI>NI>take remerial classes. ED>N >VI>NI>--- ED>N > ED>N >VI>Of course it sucks that they have to teach remedial classes in CUNY ED>N >VI>It would be better if kids learned this material in High School. B ED>N >VI>the sad truth is our schools have been failing. So CUNY is the las ED>N >VI>chance to get these kids to learn this material. ED>N > ED>N >But, if the teachers don't teach them correctly in high school, they g ED>N >suck going to a community college(Overpriced high school). ED>N > ED>N >If they haven't learned by the time they get to college, there's a big ED>N >problem. ED>First of all, I was of the impression that the move was to put restrict ED>remedial classes to community colleges in an attempt to restore schools ED>like CCNY to the status they once held. In the mid to late 60s, an ED>engineering degree from CCNY was one of the most prestigious in the ED>country. It was a bitch to get into, and even harder to stay in once you ED>got there. But, if someone hasn't learned how to read and write (which I ED>understand to be the main problem) after 12-13 years of FREE education, ED>don't you think its time to try to press them a bit? On the other hand, you ED>are right, that if you "paid" for your 12-13 years of education (via ED>taxes), and still can't read or write, asking for a refund isn't such a bad ED>idea. ED>I think remedial education is a great idea, I just resent the name games ED>that politicians play. If the idea is to help those who need more help, ED>let's call it that. Instead, by giving these course on a college level, by ED>the mere dispersion of energy and resources (if nothing else) you are ED>watering down the education of those who are qualified in the first place. ED>Also, the synergy you develop by grouping together a group of above average ED>intelligence, high achievers, is severly diminished by introducing remedial ED>education. ED>I still think the underlying root is that this country has a prejudice ED>against non-white collar workers. Somehow being a lawyer or an accountant ED>is "better" than being a brick layer, a carpenter or, heaven forbid, a ED>garbage collector. Personally, I have the greatest respect for someone who ED>can do something I can't. Be it writing contracts or hauling garbage. You have to understand, I'm speaking as someone who went to a Community College because only two Cuny school had a good music program & my SAT scores weren't high enought to go to Queens College. The fact of the matter is that you're right. The Cuny's were NOT open enrollment, you had to earn your way in(expect when it came to community colleges). Personally speaking, I'm not really good in Math, so when I got to QCC, the ONLY remerial class I had to take was math(I took two years of accounting in High School as my math) --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ To err is human...Use WINDOWS to really screw things up Date: Sunday, May 31, 1998 3:09pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 746574 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746557, Reply to #746550, Reply to #746547, R*) VI>NI>VI>NI>Is it really the end of Cuny, or something that should have happene VI>NI>VI>NI>long time ago. VI>NI>VI>NI>I went to a community college, which in my opinion is just barly on VI>NI>VI>NI>step above high school. VI>NI>VI>NI>Personally, it really sucks when you are paying for school & have t VI>NI>VI>NI>take remerial classes. VI>NI>VI>NI>--- VI>NI>VI>Of course it sucks that they have to teach remedial classes in CUNY. VI>NI>VI>It would be better if kids learned this material in High School. But VI>NI>VI>the sad truth is our schools have been failing. So CUNY is the last VI>NI>VI>chance to get these kids to learn this material. VI>NI>But, if the teachers don't teach them correctly in high school, they get VI>NI>suck going to a community college(Overpriced high school). VI>I'm not so sure that this is true. There's a certain self selection VI>process going on with deciding to enroll in community college, or VI>whatever. Personally speaking, the only reason I went to a community college is because my SAT scores were'nt high enought to go to Queens College. VI>Mandatory education laws force kids to go to school, or at least VI>theortically do so. Only kids that are some what motivated to learn or VI>to get ahead make the decision to enroll in CUNY. It is these VI>motivated kids, who want to make themselves better, who are going to VI>end up getting thrown away in the garbage heap, I'm afraid. VI>NI>If they haven't learned by the time they get to college, there's a big VI>NI>problem. VI>I agree on this point 100%. There IS a big problem because these kids VI>haven't VI>learned this material at an earlier stage. I was really bad in math in high school, to the point that I took two years of accounting as my math. So when I go to QCC to only remerial I had the take was one math class. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ #30-3771: Grow up? Naw, I'm gonna be a Sysop. Date: Sunday, May 31, 1998 8:01pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746579 To: ** ALL ** Re: The end of civilization :) Well folks, this story means the end of civilization as we know it. :) Seriously, since I have close contact with a 12 year old girl, this is a very, very serious matter. Only kidding on the serious part. :) | Sunday May 31, 7:13 PM Five Become Four As Geri Quits Spice Girls The Spice Girls are to go ahead with their forthcoming US tour as a foursome following Geri Halliwell's decision to quit the group. The rising tide of rumours about damaging rows and resentments within the group were finally confirmed when lawyers for the two sides released statements announcing her departure, citing "differences" with other band members. The Spice Girls' publicity machine swung into action to insist the group would carry on as a four-piece, and that their forthcoming tour of America would go ahead. But media speculation was immediately focused on whether this was the beginning of the end, and what turn 25-year-old Ms Halliwell's career might now take. Some showbiz pundits said Ms Halliwell - Ginger Spice to millions of fans - was making a mistake, and that her departure might signal the start of a decline in the group's fortunes. More than 30 journalists gathered outside the office of the group's solicitors, Lee & Thompson, in central London, to hear the news many had been predicting for several days. A statement from Ms Halliwell, 25, was read out by her solicitor Julian Turton. It said: "This is a message to the fans. Sadly I would like to confirm that I have left the Spice Girls. This is because of differences between us. "I'm sure the group will continue to be successful and I wish them all the best. I have no immediate plans. "I wish to apologise to all the fans and to thank them and everyone who's been there. Lots of love, Geri. PS, I'll be back." A statement from the four remaining band members - Emma Bunton, Melanie Chisholm, Victoria Adams and Melanie Brown - read by Spice Girls spokesman Alan Edwards, said: "We are upset and saddened by Geri's departure but we are very supportive in whatever she wants to do." | Date: Monday, June 1, 1998 7:15am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746584 To: Editor Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746568, Reply to #746558, Reply to #746553, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >I still don't see what remedial classes have to do with the prestige o ED>V >an engineering degree from CCNY. Of course, a person can't take any o ED>V >the engineering classses unless he or she can perform well in the ED>V >higher mathematics. So I would say that unless a person can pull at ED>V >least a B+ or A- in calculus they have no business in enrolling in ED>V >classes in the engineering department. And I have no problems with th ED>V >Engineering Department setting these kinds of standards. ED>Its simple. The pot isn't infinitely big. The school has a mission ED>statement and x dollars to achieve that mission. Adding remedial courses ED>under the same umbrella dilutes the mission, bad enough, but also dilutes ED>the dollars. I really don't have anything against remedial courses per se, ED>I just object to mixing it with a traditional college environment. When I ED>graduated from high school, if you couldn't get into CCNY, you had the ED>option of spending two years at Hunter, or BCC, or KCC, or whatever, and ED>then trying again. CCNY had a clear cut mission with a student body to ED>match. Actually wasn't Hunter College an all female school at that point in time? :) Given your argument that there are only limited dollars isn't it better that those limited dollars be used to try to lift marginal students that otherwise might be lost than to create an elitist creme de la creme instituion? ED>V >I could live with your idea of restricing remedial classes to the ED>V >community college level--provided that a person who is enable to ED>V >receive an Associates Degree from the community college could transfer ED>V >to the Senior colleges. (And remedial classes at the community ED>V >colleges should NOT count for any credit toward that Associates Degree ED>That's the way it used to work, and both the community colleges and the ED>"traditional" colleges were better off for it. There were some minimal ED>entrance standards for the community colleges, but I could live with ED>fiddling with that. My understanding is that's the way it still is. When Gerri went to Brooklyn College in the 1980's, that was certainly the case. By the way, she used to always comment that more than half the kids that transferred from KBCC to Brooklyn College couldn't hack it at Brooklyn College and ended up dropping out. She always looked down her nose at the transferress from KBCC. ED>V >In case you are wondering why I know this sytem so well, my ex lover ED>V >Jerri received her BA with an English major from Brooklyn College in ED>V >1990. And I was with her the whole time she went through the school ED>V >and ghost wrote most of her term papers. Believe me, it was not an ED>V >easy program. ED>And in case you are wondering why I'm familiar with the old community ED>college program, it is because as a student at Bronx High School of ED>Science, thanks to some bueraucratic mopery and dopery, we were measured by ED>one ruler inside the school and another outside. So, with an 85 average, I ED>had SAT scores in the top 1%, but I was competing with "normal" high ED>schools and couldn't qualify for admission at CCNY. A friend of mine, at a ED>"traditional" high school, had SAT scores about 400 points below mine, but ED>easily qualified CCNY. You mean as a graduate of the HIGHLY prestigious Bronx High School of Science you couldn't qualify for admission for CCNY but a kid from a "regular high school" with a much lower SAT score got in? That's truly NUTS! ED>V >ED>I still think the underlying root is that this country has a prejud ED>V >ED>against non-white collar workers. Somehow being a lawyer or an acco ED>V >ED>is "better" than being a brick layer, a carpenter or, heaven forbid ED>V >ED>garbage collector. Personally, I have the greatest respect for some ED>V >ED>can do something I can't. Be it writing contracts or hauling garbag ED>V > ED>V >I don't think this kind of class prejudice has anything to do with wha ED>V >is going on here. But as a kid from a working class background, I ED>V >agree with you 100% that this kind of prejudice exists and is very ED>V >strong. ED>I never thought of it as "class" but I guess it is. But this country has a ED>strong prejudice agains people who work with their hands. People who work with their hands are, by definition, working class people. But I still don't see the connection between the prejudice against people who work with their hands and this thread. So maybe you can explain it better to me. Date: Monday, June 1, 1998 7:18am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746585 To: Editor Re: Memories I (Reply to #746569, Reply to #746559, Reply to #746554) (1 reply) ED>V >ED>Lots of interesting stuff in this article. Anyone else see the para ED>V >ED>our ongoing arguments about affirmative action, or am I imagining i ED>V > ED>V >I read the piece and I really don't see the connections between this ED>V >piece and affirmative action. Maybe you can clarify where you see the ED>V >connections more. ED>V > ED>V >In the meantime, I do see some really interesting points that are ED>V >raised in this piece so I will spin those pieces off in one or two ED>V >seperate posts. ED>I don't have it in front of me, but I remember the quote something like ED>"how long should we feel guilty, we weren't even there". Yeah, it was something like that. So that raises the question. Should the generations of Germans that were born after the war bare any guilt or responsibility for the Holocaust? Any thoughts on this question? Date: Monday, June 1, 1998 7:22am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746586 To: Editor Re: Memories III (Reply to #746570, Reply to #746561, Reply to #746554) (1 reply) ED>V >ED>Berlin has made an effort to hide such ``authentic sites,'' includi ED>V >ED>exact location of Hitler's bunker between the Potsdamer Platz and t ED>V >ED>Brandenburg Gate, for fear of creating shrines for skinheads. ED>V >---------------------------------------------------------------------- ED>V >--------------------------------- ED>V >I most admit this is the most disturbing point to this article! :( ED>I really don't know what to make of this. On one hand, it has been 50 ED>years, and the (West) German government was so strongly pro Israel that it ED>sometimes hurt. Hurt? In what way hurt? I always figured it was just a massive guilt reaction. ED> So I want to say "let it be". But you can't "let it be". ED>People just can't believe the kind of shit people are capable of doing to ED>other people. I watched "Escape from Sobridor(sp?)" last night, and after ED>all of these years of watching this kind of movie, I'm still stunned. The presence of the Neo-Nazi movement in Germany is very, very scarey. That and the Holocaust deniers who still try to convince people that the concentration camps really didn't exist and that millions of people really weren't killed. Date: Monday, June 1, 1998 9:58am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746590 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746584, Reply to #746568, Reply to #746558, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>option of spending two years at Hunter, or BCC, or KCC, or whatever V >ED>then trying again. CCNY had a clear cut mission with a student body V >ED>match. V > V >Actually wasn't Hunter College an all female school at that point in V >time? :) I believe that was Hunter downtown, not Hunter in the Bronx. Had you been right, my incentives might have been otherwise prioritized. (G) V >Given your argument that there are only limited dollars isn't it bette V >that those limited dollars be used to try to lift marginal students V >that otherwise might be lost than to create an elitist creme de la V >creme instituion? No.... At some point you are throwing good money after bad. Also, its nice to say "elitist creme de la creme" like you were discussing the Russian aristocracy, but we are discussing students who's sole negative action was to be smart and hard working. Also, average students don't find cures for polio, AIDS, cancer, etc. Somewhere along the line you have to encourage the top 1%. V >ED>And in case you are wondering why I'm familiar with the old communi V >ED>college program, it is because as a student at Bronx High School of V >ED>Science, thanks to some bueraucratic mopery and dopery, we were mea V >ED>one ruler inside the school and another outside. So, with an 85 ave V >ED>had SAT scores in the top 1%, but I was competing with "normal" hig V >ED>schools and couldn't qualify for admission at CCNY. A friend of min V >ED>"traditional" high school, had SAT scores about 400 points below mi V >ED>easily qualified CCNY. V > V >You mean as a graduate of the HIGHLY prestigious Bronx High School of V >Science you couldn't qualify for admission for CCNY but a kid from a V >"regular high school" with a much lower SAT score got in? That's trul V >NUTS! You are reading me loud and clear. Now is that nuts or is it nuts? We are talking about a school which in the 60s regularly turned out students with double 1600s on the SATs, and yet they measure them by the CUNY system measured them by same standards as schools that had to lock the doors to keep students from disappearing in the middle of the day. V >ED>I never thought of it as "class" but I guess it is. But this countr V >ED>strong prejudice agains people who work with their hands. V > V >People who work with their hands are, by definition, working class V >people. Gee... then I must be the leisure class. I must have missed that somewhere. (G) V > But I still don't see the connection between the prejudice against V >people who work with their hands and this thread. So maybe you can V >explain it better to me. I will resort to a joke. A doctor wakes up at night and finds his bathroom flooded. He calls a plumber who quickly shows up, spends about 10 minutes fixing the leak, and then leaves. In a few days the doctor gets a bill for $200. He calls the plumber, irate, saying "That's a pay rate of $1200 per hour. I'm a top rated neurosurgeon, and I don't make $1200 an hour". The plumber sighs and replies, "I know, when I was a neurosurgeon, I didn't make $1200 an hour eigher". So... why must everyone have a college education to be complete? Certainly a good plumber, carpenter, electrician, watch maker or any other skilled laborer SHOULD earn as much respect as anyone else without regard to a college degree. I can even show you that if you have a marketable talent, a four year college education can be a distinct detriment. But the prejudice against someone without a college education is so great as to be almost irrational. So we take people who could, and should be happy without a college education, throw them in with people who never should have been allowed in college in the first place, mess with their heads, and turn them out unhappy, feeling downtrodden and STILL uneducated. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Monday, June 1, 1998 9:58am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746591 To: Vida Re: Memories I (Reply to #746585, Reply to #746569, Reply to #746559, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>I don't have it in front of me, but I remember the quote something V >ED>"how long should we feel guilty, we weren't even there". V > V >Yeah, it was something like that. So that raises the question. V > V >Should the generations of Germans that were born after the war bare an V >guilt or responsibility for the Holocaust? V > V >Any thoughts on this question? You've go to twitch a bit when you realize that the woman living in that house no only wasn't born until after the war, but her MOTHER wasn't born until after the war. I think its extremely important for this ugly period in history to be well remembered, but I hate to visit that on people who seem to have led a good life and just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Of course, you could also say that there were 6,000,000+ people in the wrong place at the wrong time, but that doesn't make this right. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Monday, June 1, 1998 9:58am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746592 To: Vida Re: Memories III (Reply to #746586, Reply to #746570, Reply to #746561, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>V >ED>Berlin has made an effort to hide such ``authentic sites,'' i V >ED>V >ED>exact location of Hitler's bunker between the Potsdamer Platz V >ED>V >ED>Brandenburg Gate, for fear of creating shrines for skinheads. V >ED>V >---------------------------------------------------------------- V >ED>V >--------------------------------- V >ED>V >I most admit this is the most disturbing point to this article! V > V >ED>I really don't know what to make of this. On one hand, it has been V >ED>years, and the (West) German government was so strongly pro Israel V >ED>sometimes hurt. V > V >Hurt? In what way hurt? I always figured it was just a massive guilt V >reaction. That's what I meant. I mean they were trying SOOOOO hard. I remember the exchanges between the Israeli and German governments after the Munich olympic killings. The Israelis jumped in and told the Germans that they were dead right in how they handled it, etc. V >ED> So I want to say "let it be". But you can't "let it be". V >ED>People just can't believe the kind of shit people are capable of do V >ED>other people. I watched "Escape from Sobridor(sp?)" last night, and V >ED>all of these years of watching this kind of movie, I'm still stunne V > V >The presence of the Neo-Nazi movement in Germany is very, very scarey. V >That and the Holocaust deniers who still try to convince people that V >the concentration camps really didn't exist and that millions of peopl V >really weren't killed. You know, if a funny sort of way, the Neo-Nazi movement doesn't scare me so much. These people are extremists, and are generally recognized as such. The scarey part of the holocaust was that it was so ACCEPTED. I heard one person show how the German populace has slowly been conditioned over a ten year period to consider those actions acceptable. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Monday, June 1, 1998 7:21pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746594 To: Editor Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746590, Reply to #746584, Reply to #746568, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >ED>option of spending two years at Hunter, or BCC, or KCC, or whatever ED>V >ED>then trying again. CCNY had a clear cut mission with a student body ED>V >ED>match. ED>V > ED>V >Actually wasn't Hunter College an all female school at that point in ED>V >time? :) ED>I believe that was Hunter downtown, not Hunter in the Bronx. Had you been ED>right, my incentives might have been otherwise prioritized. (G) Oh that's right! I forgot about Hunter in the Bronx! I thought that that school went from being NYU in the Bronx to Bronx Community College. I didn't realize that there was an intermediate period where it was Hunter in the Bronx. ED>V >Given your argument that there are only limited dollars isn't it bette ED>V >that those limited dollars be used to try to lift marginal students ED>V >that otherwise might be lost than to create an elitist creme de la ED>V >creme instituion? ED>No.... At some point you are throwing good money after bad. How so? Is it the kids that are bad or the school semester that is a disaster? ED> Also, its nice ED>to say "elitist creme de la creme" like you were discussing the Russian ED>aristocracy, but we are discussing students who's sole negative ED>action was to be smart and hard working. Also, average students don't find ED>cures for polio, AIDS, cancer, etc. Somewhere along the line you have to ED>encourage the top 1%. Those top 1% can get scholarships and can get into private colleges. I am just questioning whether if you have scarce city resources (as you are arguing) if we should be spending those scarce resources to serve the top 1 percent while giving the bottom 10 to 20 percent a royal screwing. You also have to look at this from a pragmatic point of view. Isn't worth spending this money on the bottom 10 to 20 percent if it keeps them off welfare? What is going to happen to these kids if they don't receive a skill and the means to earn a decent living? ED>V >ED>And in case you are wondering why I'm familiar with the old communi ED>V >ED>college program, it is because as a student at Bronx High School of ED>V >ED>Science, thanks to some bueraucratic mopery and dopery, we were mea ED>V >ED>one ruler inside the school and another outside. So, with an 85 ave ED>V >ED>had SAT scores in the top 1%, but I was competing with "normal" hig ED>V >ED>schools and couldn't qualify for admission at CCNY. A friend of min ED>V >ED>"traditional" high school, had SAT scores about 400 points below mi ED>V >ED>easily qualified CCNY. ED>V > ED>V >You mean as a graduate of the HIGHLY prestigious Bronx High School of ED>V >Science you couldn't qualify for admission for CCNY but a kid from a ED>V >"regular high school" with a much lower SAT score got in? That's trul ED>V >NUTS! ED>You are reading me loud and clear. Now is that nuts or is it nuts? We are ED>talking about a school which in the 60s regularly turned out students with ED>double 1600s on the SATs, and yet they measure them by the CUNY system ED>measured them by same standards as schools that had to lock the doors to ED>keep students from disappearing in the middle of the day. Then the system they employed to select students for entrance to CCNY was grossly unfair. I don't mind admitting I failed the entrance exam for Bronx Sci. But remember, as I have written elsewhere I am "arthematically challenged". ED>V >ED>I never thought of it as "class" but I guess it is. But this countr ED>V >ED>strong prejudice agains people who work with their hands. ED>V > ED>V >People who work with their hands are, by definition, working class ED>V >people. ED>Gee... then I must be the leisure class. I must have missed that somewhere. ED>(G) ED>V > But I still don't see the connection between the prejudice against ED>V >people who work with their hands and this thread. So maybe you can ED>V >explain it better to me. ED>I will resort to a joke. ED>A doctor wakes up at night and finds his bathroom flooded. He calls a ED>plumber who quickly shows up, spends about 10 minutes fixing the leak, and ED>then leaves. In a few days the doctor gets a bill for $200. He calls the ED>plumber, irate, saying "That's a pay rate of $1200 per hour. I'm a top ED>rated neurosurgeon, and I don't make $1200 an hour". The plumber sighs and ED>replies, "I know, when I was a neurosurgeon, I didn't make $1200 an hour ED>eigher". ED>So... why must everyone have a college education to be complete? Certainly ED>a good plumber, carpenter, electrician, watch maker or any other skilled ED>laborer SHOULD earn as much respect as anyone else without regard to a ED>college degree. I can even show you that if you have a marketable talent, a ED>four year college education can be a distinct detriment. But the prejudice ED>against someone without a college education is so great as to be almost ED>irrational. So we take people who could, and should be happy without a ED>college education, throw them in with people who never should have been ED>allowed in college in the first place, mess with their heads, and turn them ED>out unhappy, feeling downtrodden and STILL uneducated. ED>--- ED> þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Monday, June 1, 1998 7:28pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746595 To: Editor Re: Memories I (Reply to #746591, Reply to #746585, Reply to #746569, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >ED>I don't have it in front of me, but I remember the quote something ED>V >ED>"how long should we feel guilty, we weren't even there". ED>V > ED>V >Yeah, it was something like that. So that raises the question. ED>V > ED>V >Should the generations of Germans that were born after the war bare an ED>V >guilt or responsibility for the Holocaust? ED>V > ED>V >Any thoughts on this question? ED>You've go to twitch a bit when you realize that the woman living in that ED>house no only wasn't born until after the war, but her MOTHER wasn't born ED>until after the war. I think its extremely important for this ugly period ED>in history to be well remembered, but I hate to visit that on people who ED>seem to have led a good life and just happen to be in the wrong place at ED>the wrong time. ED>Of course, you could also say that there were 6,000,000+ people in the ED>wrong place at the wrong time, but that doesn't make this right. I think as a general rule you can't hold people personally responsible for the sins of past generation. To hold Germans born after the war personally responsible for the horrors of the Holocaust strikes me as the same kind of "racial sterotyping" that the Nazis engaged in. Date: Monday, June 1, 1998 7:30pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746596 To: Editor Re: Memories III (Reply to #746592, Reply to #746586, Reply to #746570, R*) ED>V >ED>V >ED>Berlin has made an effort to hide such ``authentic sites,'' i ED>V >ED>V >ED>exact location of Hitler's bunker between the Potsdamer Platz ED>V >ED>V >ED>Brandenburg Gate, for fear of creating shrines for skinheads. ED>V >ED>V >---------------------------------------------------------------- ED>V >ED>V >--------------------------------- ED>V >ED>V >I most admit this is the most disturbing point to this article! ED>V > ED>V >ED>I really don't know what to make of this. On one hand, it has been ED>V >ED>years, and the (West) German government was so strongly pro Israel ED>V >ED>sometimes hurt. ED>V > ED>V >Hurt? In what way hurt? I always figured it was just a massive guilt ED>V >reaction. ED>That's what I meant. I mean they were trying SOOOOO hard. I remember the ED>exchanges between the Israeli and German governments after the Munich ED>olympic killings. The Israelis jumped in and told the Germans that they ED>were dead right in how they handled it, etc. Well that was a major league embarsement for the German government. They HAD to jump in an apologize for appearances sake alone! ED>V >ED> So I want to say "let it be". But you can't "let it be". ED>V >ED>People just can't believe the kind of shit people are capable of do ED>V >ED>other people. I watched "Escape from Sobridor(sp?)" last night, and ED>V >ED>all of these years of watching this kind of movie, I'm still stunne ED>V > ED>V >The presence of the Neo-Nazi movement in Germany is very, very scarey. ED>V >That and the Holocaust deniers who still try to convince people that ED>V >the concentration camps really didn't exist and that millions of peopl ED>V >really weren't killed. ED>You know, if a funny sort of way, the Neo-Nazi movement doesn't scare me so ED>much. These people are extremists, and are generally recognized as such. ED>The scarey part of the holocaust was that it was so ACCEPTED. I heard one ED>person show how the German populace has slowly been conditioned over a ten ED>year period to consider those actions acceptable. Well that's EXACTLY what the Nazis did. Slowly and carefully conditioned the German people to such a point that mass killing was acceptable. That's the scarrey part to me. ED>--- ED> þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Tuesday, June 2, 1998 8:19am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746599 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746594, Reply to #746590, Reply to #746584, R*) (1 reply) V >Oh that's right! I forgot about Hunter in the Bronx! V > V >I thought that that school went from being NYU in the Bronx to Bronx V >Community College. I didn't realize that there was an intermediate V >period where it was Hunter in the Bronx. There was an NYU campus on University Avenue, about 5 blocks from where I grew up. It was where I went to college. Bronx High School of Science was on 183rd Street just of the Grand Concourse. Around 1959, BHSS then moved way uptown, to its current location, next to the Jerome Resovoir, and the old BHSS became Bronx Community College. Then, in the early 70s, NYU got out of the engineering school business, and sold th uptown campus to the city, and it became Bronx Community College. The old building, on 183rd stree, is probably stripped and up on milk cartons, knowing the neighborhood. Hunter had a campus right next to the subway, slightly south of the new BHSS location, in the Kingsbridge area of the Bronx. Nice campus. Boy, you guys can't appreciate how beautiful the Bronx was in the 50s and 60s. Today, I wouldn't even feel safe DRIVING through the old NYU neighborhood, much less walking to school there. V >ED>V >Given your argument that there are only limited dollars isn't it V >ED>V >that those limited dollars be used to try to lift marginal stude V >ED>V >that otherwise might be lost than to create an elitist creme de V >ED>V >creme instituion? V > V >ED>No.... At some point you are throwing good money after bad. V > V >How so? Is it the kids that are bad or the school semester that is a V >disaster? Look.... some of these kids aren't going to make it. Some because of the homes they were raised in, some because they just aren't college material and some don't need college and would be better off elsewhere. V >ED> Also, its nice V >ED>to say "elitist creme de la creme" like you were discussing the Rus V >ED>aristocracy, but we are discussing students who's sole negative V >ED>action was to be smart and hard working. Also, average students don V >ED>cures for polio, AIDS, cancer, etc. Somewhere along the line you ha V >ED>encourage the top 1%. V > V >Those top 1% can get scholarships and can get into private colleges. V >am just questioning whether if you have scarce city resources (as you V >are arguing) if we should be spending those scarce resources to serve V >the top 1 percent while giving the bottom 10 to 20 percent a royal V >screwing. Don't believe it. I just finished paying for one college education, and let me tell you what has happened. The term "scholarship" has been replaced by financial aid. Financial aid consisting of scholarships, jobs and loans. Colleges administrations consider it normal and acceptable for kids (and families) to be $100,000+ in debt when they finish. That's nuts. A smart kid has the right to a quality school as much as a below average kid has the right to remedial courses. Possibly more so because of what society will ask of those kids. V >You also have to look at this from a pragmatic point of view. Isn't V >worth spending this money on the bottom 10 to 20 percent if it keeps V >them off welfare? What is going to happen to these kids if they don't V >receive a skill and the means to earn a decent living? And in return puts the top 1% so far into debt that they spend their best years literally starving? My brother in law is a practicing attorney, with a wife, one child and a modest life style. He is working his butt off and almost every extra cent he makes goes to pay back a gazillion dollars in loans that he incurred getting through college and law school. He was a "smart" kid with little to no resources to draw on, so the schools jumped in and offered "financial aid". Recovering from that "financial aid" is now the dominating force in his life. V >ED>You are reading me loud and clear. Now is that nuts or is it nuts? V >ED>talking about a school which in the 60s regularly turned out studen V >ED>double 1600s on the SATs, and yet they measure them by the CUNY sys V >ED>measured them by same standards as schools that had to lock the doo V >ED>keep students from disappearing in the middle of the day. V > V >Then the system they employed to select students for entrance to CCNY V >was grossly unfair. I don't mind admitting I failed the entrance exam V >for Bronx Sci. But remember, as I have written elsewhere I am V >"arthematically challenged". Yeah... as I recall that exam was about 1/3 or more mathematically intense. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Tuesday, June 2, 1998 8:19am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746600 To: Vida Re: Memories I (Reply to #746595, Reply to #746591, Reply to #746585, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>V >ED>I don't have it in front of me, but I remember the quote some V >ED>V >ED>"how long should we feel guilty, we weren't even there". V >ED>V > V >ED>V >Yeah, it was something like that. So that raises the question. V >ED>V > V >ED>V >Should the generations of Germans that were born after the war b V >ED>V >guilt or responsibility for the Holocaust? V >ED>V > V >ED>V >Any thoughts on this question? V > V >ED>You've go to twitch a bit when you realize that the woman living in V >ED>house no only wasn't born until after the war, but her MOTHER wasn' V >ED>until after the war. I think its extremely important for this ugly V >ED>in history to be well remembered, but I hate to visit that on peopl V >ED>seem to have led a good life and just happen to be in the wrong pla V >ED>the wrong time. I just reread the article, she was born three years after the war. Same deal. Based on some of the things she says, seems like a nice enough lady. V >ED>Of course, you could also say that there were 6,000,000+ people in V >ED>wrong place at the wrong time, but that doesn't make this right. V > V >I think as a general rule you can't hold people personally responsible V >for the sins of past generation. To hold Germans born after the war V >personally responsible for the horrors of the Holocaust strikes me as V >the same kind of "racial sterotyping" that the Nazis engaged in. So.... in light of the above sentence, what then is affirmative action? --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Wednesday, June 3, 1998 8:19am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746604 To: Editor Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746599, Reply to #746594, Reply to #746590, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >Oh that's right! I forgot about Hunter in the Bronx! ED>V > ED>V >I thought that that school went from being NYU in the Bronx to Bronx ED>V >Community College. I didn't realize that there was an intermediate ED>V >period where it was Hunter in the Bronx. ED>There was an NYU campus on University Avenue, about 5 blocks from where I ED>grew up. It was where I went to college. Bronx High School of Science was ED>on 183rd Street just of the Grand Concourse. Around 1959, BHSS then moved ED>way uptown, to its current location, next to the Jerome Resovoir, and the ED>old BHSS became Bronx Community College. Then, in the early 70s, NYU got ED>out of the engineering school business, and sold th uptown campus to the ED>city, and it became Bronx Community College. The old building, on 183rd ED>stree, is probably stripped and up on milk cartons, knowing the ED>neighborhood. Hunter had a campus right next to the subway, slightly south ED>of the new BHSS location, in the Kingsbridge area of the Bronx. Nice ED>campus. Ok. Thanks for setting me straight. :) ED>Boy, you guys can't appreciate how beautiful the Bronx was in the 50s and ED>60s. Today, I wouldn't even feel safe DRIVING through the old NYU ED>neighborhood, much less walking to school there. No, you are quite right I can't imagine how beautiful the Bronx was in the 50's and the early 60'.s. I moved into Co-op City on December 13, 1969. I remember riding the elevated "4" and "5" subway train through the South Bronx in the early 70's and it looked like Berlin after WW II. It was a horrible, horrible sight. ED>V >ED>V >Given your argument that there are only limited dollars isn't it ED>V >ED>V >that those limited dollars be used to try to lift marginal stude ED>V >ED>V >that otherwise might be lost than to create an elitist creme de ED>V >ED>V >creme instituion? ED>V > ED>V >ED>No.... At some point you are throwing good money after bad. ED>V > ED>V >How so? Is it the kids that are bad or the school semester that is a ED>V >disaster? ED>Look.... some of these kids aren't going to make it. Some because of the ED>homes they were raised in, some because they just aren't college material ED>and some don't need college and would be better off elsewhere. How do you know that they aren't going to make it unless you try? And also given our current post industrial economy what is going to happen to these kids? How are going to give them the skills they need to hold a job when all the factories are gone? ED>V >ED> Also, its nice ED>V >ED>to say "elitist creme de la creme" like you were discussing the Rus ED>V >ED>aristocracy, but we are discussing students who's sole negative ED>V >ED>action was to be smart and hard working. Also, average students don ED>V >ED>cures for polio, AIDS, cancer, etc. Somewhere along the line you ha ED>V >ED>encourage the top 1%. ED>V > ED>V >Those top 1% can get scholarships and can get into private colleges. ED>V >am just questioning whether if you have scarce city resources (as you ED>V >are arguing) if we should be spending those scarce resources to serve ED>V >the top 1 percent while giving the bottom 10 to 20 percent a royal ED>V >screwing. ED>Don't believe it. I just finished paying for one college education, and let ED>me tell you what has happened. The term "scholarship" has been replaced by ED>financial aid. Financial aid consisting of scholarships, jobs and ED>loans. Colleges administrations consider it normal and acceptable for kids ED>(and families) to be $100,000+ in debt when they finish. That's nuts. A ED>smart kid has the right to a quality school as much as a below average kid ED>has the right to remedial courses. Possibly more so because of what society ED>will ask of those kids. Yes, I know all about it. I couldn't get a scholoarship for law school. It took me ten years to pay off my law school education. And I was lucky--three out of four years of my undergraduation education at CUNY was tutition free so I had no debt for my undergrad degree. ED>V >You also have to look at this from a pragmatic point of view. Isn't ED>V >worth spending this money on the bottom 10 to 20 percent if it keeps ED>V >them off welfare? What is going to happen to these kids if they don't ED>V >receive a skill and the means to earn a decent living? ED>And in return puts the top 1% so far into debt that they spend their best ED>years literally starving? My brother in law is a practicing attorney, with ED>a wife, one child and a modest life style. He is working his butt off and ED>almost every extra cent he makes goes to pay back a gazillion dollars in ED>loans that he incurred getting through college and law school. He was a ED>"smart" kid with little to no resources to draw on, so the schools jumped ED>in and offered "financial aid". Recovering from that "financial aid" is now ED>the dominating force in his life. But if you compare his fate to a person on welfare he is doing well. Our greatest duty as a societ is to give a helping hand to lift people out of abject poverty. ED>V >ED>You are reading me loud and clear. Now is that nuts or is it nuts? ED>V >ED>talking about a school which in the 60s regularly turned out studen ED>V >ED>double 1600s on the SATs, and yet they measure them by the CUNY sys ED>V >ED>measured them by same standards as schools that had to lock the doo ED>V >ED>keep students from disappearing in the middle of the day. ED>V > ED>V >Then the system they employed to select students for entrance to CCNY ED>V >was grossly unfair. I don't mind admitting I failed the entrance exam ED>V >for Bronx Sci. But remember, as I have written elsewhere I am ED>V >"arthematically challenged". ED>Yeah... as I recall that exam was about 1/3 or more mathematically intense. ED>--- ED> þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Wednesday, June 3, 1998 8:21am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746605 To: Editor Re: Memories I (Reply to #746600, Reply to #746595, Reply to #746591, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >ED>V >ED>I don't have it in front of me, but I remember the quote some ED>V >ED>V >ED>"how long should we feel guilty, we weren't even there". ED>V >ED>V > ED>V >ED>V >Yeah, it was something like that. So that raises the question. ED>V >ED>V > ED>V >ED>V >Should the generations of Germans that were born after the war b ED>V >ED>V >guilt or responsibility for the Holocaust? ED>V >ED>V > ED>V >ED>V >Any thoughts on this question? ED>V > ED>V >ED>You've go to twitch a bit when you realize that the woman living in ED>V >ED>house no only wasn't born until after the war, but her MOTHER wasn' ED>V >ED>until after the war. I think its extremely important for this ugly ED>V >ED>in history to be well remembered, but I hate to visit that on peopl ED>V >ED>seem to have led a good life and just happen to be in the wrong pla ED>V >ED>the wrong time. ED>I just reread the article, she was born three years after the war. Same ED>deal. Based on some of the things she says, seems like a nice enough lady. Or smart enough to say the right things to a reporter. I am a born cynic, I am afraid. ED>V >ED>Of course, you could also say that there were 6,000,000+ people in ED>V >ED>wrong place at the wrong time, but that doesn't make this right. ED>V > ED>V >I think as a general rule you can't hold people personally responsible ED>V >for the sins of past generation. To hold Germans born after the war ED>V >personally responsible for the horrors of the Holocaust strikes me as ED>V >the same kind of "racial sterotyping" that the Nazis engaged in. ED>So.... in light of the above sentence, what then is affirmative action? An attempt to reverse a history of apartheid that existed in this country. And which still continues to have "echoes" in our time. ED>--- ED> þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Wednesday, June 3, 1998 9:05am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746608 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746604, Reply to #746599, Reply to #746594, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>Boy, you guys can't appreciate how beautiful the Bronx was in the 5 V >ED>60s. Today, I wouldn't even feel safe DRIVING through the old NYU V >ED>neighborhood, much less walking to school there. V > V >No, you are quite right I can't imagine how beautiful the Bronx was in V >the 50's and the early 60'.s. V > V >I moved into Co-op City on December 13, 1969. I remember riding the V >elevated "4" and "5" subway train through the South Bronx in the early V >70's and it looked like Berlin after WW II. It was a horrible, V >horrible sight. Consider some things like.... You left your fire escape window unlocked so that if you locked yourself out of your apartment, you could get in through there. Or most amazing, around 1961-2, I would cut through the park at 1AM rather than walk down city streets because it was so pleasant and quiet. V >ED>Look.... some of these kids aren't going to make it. Some because o V >ED>homes they were raised in, some because they just aren't college ma V >ED>and some don't need college and would be better off elsewhere. V > V >How do you know that they aren't going to make it unless you try? And V >also given our current post industrial economy what is going to happen V >to these kids? How are going to give them the skills they need to hol V >a job when all the factories are gone? Why is it a given that they must try? Maybe they just don't want to. There are a tremendous number of jobs, and lucrative ones, that involve trade school levels of education or less. I just think that we have raised a college education to the status of small pox immunization. If everyone doesn't have one, we'll all die. Not true. V >ED>And in return puts the top 1% so far into debt that they spend thei V >ED>years literally starving? My brother in law is a practicing attorne V >ED>a wife, one child and a modest life style. He is working his butt o V >ED>almost every extra cent he makes goes to pay back a gazillion dolla V >ED>loans that he incurred getting through college and law school. He w V >ED>"smart" kid with little to no resources to draw on, so the schools V >ED>in and offered "financial aid". Recovering from that "financial aid V >ED>the dominating force in his life. V > V >But if you compare his fate to a person on welfare he is doing well. V >Our greatest duty as a societ is to give a helping hand to lift people V >out of abject poverty. What does that have to do with remedial education in college? All I'm saying is that there are many reasons someone doesn't get into college. Lousy high schools are one. Using the colleges to fix screwed up high schools is simply rewarding the people in the high schools who screwed up in the first place. Another reason is that someone simply doesn't NEED that college education and isn't suited to it. And so on. We are in a society where it is vital that everyone be able to read, write and do simple arithmetic. When I grew up, that was accomplished in the first six years of schooling. Putting that into the college system is no right. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Wednesday, June 3, 1998 9:05am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746609 To: Vida Re: Memories I (Reply to #746605, Reply to #746600, Reply to #746595, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>I just reread the article, she was born three years after the war. V >ED>deal. Based on some of the things she says, seems like a nice enoug V > V >Or smart enough to say the right things to a reporter. I am a born V >cynic, I am afraid. Entirely possible. V >ED>V >ED>Of course, you could also say that there were 6,000,000+ peop V >ED>V >ED>wrong place at the wrong time, but that doesn't make this rig V >ED>V > V >ED>V >I think as a general rule you can't hold people personally respo V >ED>V >for the sins of past generation. To hold Germans born after the V >ED>V >personally responsible for the horrors of the Holocaust strikes V >ED>V >the same kind of "racial sterotyping" that the Nazis engaged in. V > V >ED>So.... in light of the above sentence, what then is affirmative act V > V >An attempt to reverse a history of apartheid that existed in this V >country. And which still continues to have "echoes" in our time. So you are saying that affirmative reaction is in response to apartheid in our society TODAY, not to redress past grievances? --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Wednesday, June 3, 1998 10:48pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 746617 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746536) (1 reply) VI>It is with great sadness that I have read the news about the vote of the VI>C[AY Board of Trustees regarding the phasing out of remedial classes in VI>the CUNY senior colleges. And I am quite happy, actually overjoyed that this step was finally taken. I knew it was going to happen. It was only a question of when. It is not up to the college to remediate what should have been learned in high school. That should be done on a high school level. Because it is not done does not mean that it is ok when done on a college level. Our politicians are trying to pander to certain groups and it just couldn't work. Not everyone is college material, and not everyone really wants to go to college. Going to college simply because your friends are going is really a silly reason. When I went to school, and probably when you went, you needed a certain average to make it into college. On the high school level you had a choice of a regents diploma or a commercial diploma. This was watered down because the MAJORITY of the students were no longer passing the regents exams. As a matter of fact the MOST of the high school students were failing RCT exams which test skills on a 6th or 7th grade level. So they finally came up with a brainy idea again--that all students have to take regents. They are forgetting that this used to be the norm. Wait till they realize that in order to graduate elementary school and enter high school, a student has to score atleast on the 15th percentile on a reading exam. That is about a 4th or 5th grade reading level! Our educational system is really a sham because someone came up with the idea that all students are equal. That just is not true and will never be true. It can be true of machines, but human beings are not machines. Students should not graduate high school unless they are really on a high school level. Social promotions should be stopped. If a student does not pass those basic college entrance exams then they should go back to high school where they belong! Date: Wednesday, June 3, 1998 10:51pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 746618 To: Nightbird Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746542, Reply to #746536) (1 reply) NI>Is it really the end of Cuny, or something that should have happened a NI>long time ago. NI>I went to a community college, which in my opinion is just barly one NI>step above high school. NI>Personally, it really sucks when you are paying for school & have to NI>take remerial classes. NI>--- NI> þ OLX 2.1 TD þ --T-A+G-L-I+N-E--+M-E-A+S-U-R+I-N-G+--G-A+U-G-E-- I agree with you. You should not have to pay for those remedial courses. You should be able to sue the high school that gave you a diploma! It is the high school's job to ensure that you pass those basic exams. Date: Wednesday, June 3, 1998 10:52pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 746619 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746547, Reply to #746542, Reply to #746536) (1 reply) VI>NI>Is it really the end of Cuny, or something that should have happened a VI>NI>long time ago. VI>NI>I went to a community college, which in my opinion is just barly one VI>NI>step above high school. VI>NI>Personally, it really sucks when you are paying for school & have to VI>NI>take remerial classes. VI>NI>--- VI>Of course it sucks that they have to teach remedial classes in CUNY. VI>It would be better if kids learned this material in High School. But VI>the sad truth is our schools have been failing. So CUNY is the last VI>chance to get these kids to learn this material. No! CUNY is not the last chance. The kids should go back to high school and take those classes again. I would have no problem with having those same remedial classes set up at the high schools. Date: Wednesday, June 3, 1998 10:58pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 746620 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746557, Reply to #746550, Reply to #746547, R*) (1 reply) VI>Mandatory education laws force kids to go to school, or at least VI>theortically do so. Only kids that are some what motivated to learn or VI>to get ahead make the decision to enroll in CUNY. It is these VI>motivated kids, who want to make themselves better, who are going to VI>end up getting thrown away in the garbage heap, I'm afraid. Excuse me! You sound as if you have been brain washed . If one goes to college it does not make him more motivated than the individual who wants to become a plumber, electrician, truck driver, beautician, etc... Going to college does not make the individual better, smarter, or moral. Date: Thursday, June 4, 1998 4:02am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746621 To: Editor Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746608, Reply to #746604, Reply to #746599, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >ED>Boy, you guys can't appreciate how beautiful the Bronx was in the 5 ED>V >ED>60s. Today, I wouldn't even feel safe DRIVING through the old NYU ED>V >ED>neighborhood, much less walking to school there. ED>V > ED>V >No, you are quite right I can't imagine how beautiful the Bronx was in ED>V >the 50's and the early 60'.s. ED>V > ED>V >I moved into Co-op City on December 13, 1969. I remember riding the ED>V >elevated "4" and "5" subway train through the South Bronx in the early ED>V >70's and it looked like Berlin after WW II. It was a horrible, ED>V >horrible sight. ED>Consider some things like.... You left your fire escape window unlocked so ED>that if you locked yourself out of your apartment, you could get in through ED>there. Or most amazing, around 1961-2, I would cut through the park at 1AM ED>rather than walk down city streets because it was so pleasant and quiet. Absolutely incredible! From a 1990's prespective I can't imagine doing any of those things. Even in "safe" Brooklyn Heights or "safe" Park Slope! Those closest I came to that was in the early 1980's I used to keep a Habici grill on my fire escape in Park Slope. Unfortunately, theifs used that top of the grill to smash through my window and rip off my apartment--lifting my stero, my TV, VCR, etc. I had apartment insurance at the time (still do) so financially I didn't lose anything. But I never felt the same in the apartment. I allowed my ex to talk me into moving out of this apartment (even though it was rent stabilized) and moving in to a co-op because I felt the space had been violated. ED>V >ED>Look.... some of these kids aren't going to make it. Some because o ED>V >ED>homes they were raised in, some because they just aren't college ma ED>V >ED>and some don't need college and would be better off elsewhere. ED>V > ED>V >How do you know that they aren't going to make it unless you try? And ED>V >also given our current post industrial economy what is going to happen ED>V >to these kids? How are going to give them the skills they need to hol ED>V >a job when all the factories are gone? ED>Why is it a given that they must try? Maybe they just don't want to. There ED>are a tremendous number of jobs, and lucrative ones, that involve trade ED>school levels of education or less. I just think that we have raised a ED>college education to the status of small pox immunization. If everyone ED>doesn't have one, we'll all die. Not true. ED>V >ED>And in return puts the top 1% so far into debt that they spend thei ED>V >ED>years literally starving? My brother in law is a practicing attorne ED>V >ED>a wife, one child and a modest life style. He is working his butt o ED>V >ED>almost every extra cent he makes goes to pay back a gazillion dolla ED>V >ED>loans that he incurred getting through college and law school. He w ED>V >ED>"smart" kid with little to no resources to draw on, so the schools ED>V >ED>in and offered "financial aid". Recovering from that "financial aid ED>V >ED>the dominating force in his life. ED>V > ED>V >But if you compare his fate to a person on welfare he is doing well. ED>V >Our greatest duty as a societ is to give a helping hand to lift people ED>V >out of abject poverty. ED>What does that have to do with remedial education in college? All I'm ED>saying is that there are many reasons someone doesn't get into college. ED>Lousy high schools are one. Using the colleges to fix screwed up high ED>schools is simply rewarding the people in the high schools who screwed up ED>in the first place. Another reason is that someone simply doesn't NEED that ED>college education and isn't suited to it. And so on. We are in a society ED>where it is vital that everyone be able to read, write and do simple ED>arithmetic. When I grew up, that was accomplished in the first six years of ED>schooling. Putting that into the college system is no right. ED>--- ED> þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy I think that we in society have an obligation to give our kids a decent education. In a prefect world remedial education would be either nonexistant or very rare at the college level. But we live in a far from perfect world. In the end, I believe, that if you don't give these kids a decent education it will be society that will pay. So you try to reach them any way you can to give them the means to earn a decent living. Date: Thursday, June 4, 1998 6:34am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746622 To: Editor Re: Memories I (Reply to #746609, Reply to #746605, Reply to #746600, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >ED>I just reread the article, she was born three years after the war. ED>V >ED>deal. Based on some of the things she says, seems like a nice enoug ED>V > ED>V >Or smart enough to say the right things to a reporter. I am a born ED>V >cynic, I am afraid. ED>Entirely possible. Unfortunately so. I hate being so cynical! I would like to give people the benefit of the doubt. I just frequently find myself unable to do so! ED>V >ED>V >ED>Of course, you could also say that there were 6,000,000+ peop ED>V >ED>V >ED>wrong place at the wrong time, but that doesn't make this rig ED>V >ED>V > ED>V >ED>V >I think as a general rule you can't hold people personally respo ED>V >ED>V >for the sins of past generation. To hold Germans born after the ED>V >ED>V >personally responsible for the horrors of the Holocaust strikes ED>V >ED>V >the same kind of "racial sterotyping" that the Nazis engaged in. ED>V > ED>V >ED>So.... in light of the above sentence, what then is affirmative act ED>V > ED>V >An attempt to reverse a history of apartheid that existed in this ED>V >country. And which still continues to have "echoes" in our time. ED>So you are saying that affirmative reaction is in response to apartheid in ED>our society TODAY, not to redress past grievances? Both. Obviously the apartheid that existed in the 1950's and early 1960's was worse because it was both de facto and de jure segregration. Now de jure segregration has been aboloished. But the de facto discrimination still exists. Date: Thursday, June 4, 1998 6:54am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746623 To: Kkid Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746617, Reply to #746536) (1 reply) KK>VI>It is with great sadness that I have read the news about the vote of the KK>VI>C[AY Board of Trustees regarding the phasing out of remedial classes in KK>VI>the CUNY senior colleges. KK>And I am quite happy, actually overjoyed that this step was finally KK>taken. I knew it was going to happen. How can you be overjoyed by this step when people are going to suffer as a result of this step? Maybe it will be just one kid who could have been reached by remedial education and gone on to become a more productive member of society. But just one wasted life is one too many. KK> It was only a question of when. KK>It is not up to the college to remediate what should have been learned KK>in high school. That should be done on a high school level. Because it KK>is not done does not mean that it is ok when done on a college level. I agree that this material SHOULD be taught in high school. Actually, the problem goes all the way back to elementary school which fail to teach the basic skills you need to handle high school material. That being said, the reality is that our school system has been a total disaster for the past 10, 20 years. At least with kids who are going to a college you are dealing with kids who WANT to learn and WANT to do better. So it makes sense to me that you reach out to these motivated young adults. KK>Our politicians are trying to pander to certain groups and it just KK>couldn't work. Not everyone is college material, and not everyone really KK>wants to go to college. Going to college simply because your friends are KK>going is really a silly reason. When I went to school, and probably when KK>you went, you needed a certain average to make it into college. On the KK>high school level you had a choice of a regents diploma or a commercial KK>diploma. This was watered down because the MAJORITY of the students were KK>no longer passing the regents exams. As a matter of fact the MOST of the KK>high school students were failing RCT exams which test skills on a 6th KK>or 7th grade level. So they finally came up with a brainy idea KK>again--that all students have to take regents. They are forgetting that KK>this used to be the norm. Wait till they realize that in order to KK>graduate elementary school and enter high school, a student has to score KK>atleast on the 15th percentile on a reading exam. That is about a 4th or KK>5th grade reading level! Actually, I graduated from the City High Schools the year the "academic", "commercial" and "general" diplomas were eliminated. I remember that in my Junior year of high school they had a meeting in the Spring semester when they announced to my class that we would not be receiving the "academic" diplomas that we thought we would recieve. Boy was I pissed off! I had worked hard for my "academic" diploma and now I wasn't going to get it! Additionally, I went to CUNY, which was "open enrollment". However, while you were guaranteed an admission to some CUNY school the senior colleges got to pick and choose which students they would admit. I believe that is still the case. My understanding is that Brooklyn College and Queens College are still pretty selective as to which kids they will admit. Even those schools, however, have to allow for remedial education because there are plenty of bright kids, like myself, who are overall good students but are weak in one of the "core required" classes (ie. Math or Science). Indeed, that's one of the main problems that I have with this suggestion. What is going to happen to these kids? I doubt that I could have based a college level calculus class without remedial education! KK>Our educational system is really a sham because someone came up with the KK>idea that all students are equal. That just is not true and will never KK>be true. It can be true of machines, but human beings are not machines. KK>Students should not graduate high school unless they are really on a KK>high school level. Social promotions should be stopped. If a student KK>does not pass those basic college entrance exams then they should go KK>back to high school where they belong! I agree with you 100% on this point. But it seems that we are mixing apples and oranges here. Just abolishing remedial education at the university level won't end social promotion in the high school or elementary school level. And to get back to my earlier point, what do you do with the uneven kids? In high school I pulled "As" in every class except math, where I was lucky to get "Cs". Date: Thursday, June 4, 1998 6:56am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746624 To: Kkid Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746619, Reply to #746547, Reply to #746542, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>NI>Is it really the end of Cuny, or something that should have happened a KK>VI>NI>long time ago. KK>VI>NI>I went to a community college, which in my opinion is just barly one KK>VI>NI>step above high school. KK>VI>NI>Personally, it really sucks when you are paying for school & have to KK>VI>NI>take remerial classes. KK>VI>NI>--- KK>VI>Of course it sucks that they have to teach remedial classes in CUNY. KK>VI>It would be better if kids learned this material in High School. But KK>VI>the sad truth is our schools have been failing. So CUNY is the last KK>VI>chance to get these kids to learn this material. KK>No! CUNY is not the last chance. The kids should go back to high school KK>and take those classes again. I would have no problem with having those KK>same remedial classes set up at the high schools. No one has suggested that. These kids have already been dumped out of the Board of Ed school system. So some city institution has to deal with them, otherwise we will all live to regret it in the long run. Date: Thursday, June 4, 1998 7:00am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746625 To: Kkid Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746620, Reply to #746557, Reply to #746550, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>Mandatory education laws force kids to go to school, or at least KK>VI>theortically do so. Only kids that are some what motivated to learn or KK>VI>to get ahead make the decision to enroll in CUNY. It is these KK>VI>motivated kids, who want to make themselves better, who are going to KK>VI>end up getting thrown away in the garbage heap, I'm afraid. KK>Excuse me! You sound as if you have been brain washed . If one KK>goes to college it does not make him more motivated than the individual KK>who wants to become a plumber, electrician, truck driver, beautician, KK>etc... Going to college does not make the individual better, smarter, or KK>moral. Actually, the trade schools for plumbers, electricians and other union jobs are very hard to get into. I know first hand that these guys make very good money. I have deposed many, many "blue collar' workers in my legal career and have glumped when they tell me how much money they earn! I don't look down on blue collar people at all. I am extremely proud of the fact that I was a blue collar kid. But the fact is the economy has changed. Many of the good paying union jobs for "blue collar" workers have been elminated or are in the process of being eliminated. So given the reality of our post industrial society, a college degree will become more and more of a necessity to obtain a decent paying job. Date: Thursday, June 4, 1998 9:19am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746627 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746621, Reply to #746608, Reply to #746604, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>What does that have to do with remedial education in college? All I V >ED>saying is that there are many reasons someone doesn't get into coll V >ED>Lousy high schools are one. Using the colleges to fix screwed up hi V >ED>schools is simply rewarding the people in the high schools who scre V >ED>in the first place. Another reason is that someone simply doesn't N V >ED>college education and isn't suited to it. And so on. We are in a so V >ED>where it is vital that everyone be able to read, write and do simpl V >ED>arithmetic. When I grew up, that was accomplished in the first six V >ED>schooling. Putting that into the college system is no right. V > V >I think that we in society have an obligation to give our kids a decen V >education. In a prefect world remedial education would be either V >nonexistant or very rare at the college level. But we live in a far V >from perfect world. In the end, I believe, that if you don't give the V >kids a decent education it will be society that will pay. So you try V >reach them any way you can to give them the means to earn a decent V >living. A decent education means a college degree? A decent education used to mean that you could read, write and do arithmetic well enough to pursue your desired career, be it doctor, lawyer, accountant, air conditioner repair, TV repair, plumber, carpenter or garbage hauler. Last time I looked, someone who drives a train for the TA makes somewhere in the 60s with medical benefits, a retirement plan that you and I can only dream of, plus a 35 hour work week. Now I'm all in favor of everyone getting a look at Shakespeare, but how would college impact that man's opportunity to earn a living. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Thursday, June 4, 1998 9:19am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746628 To: Vida Re: Memories I (Reply to #746622, Reply to #746609, Reply to #746605, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>V >ED>V >I think as a general rule you can't hold people personally V >ED>V >ED>V >for the sins of past generation. To hold Germans born aft V >ED>V >ED>V >personally responsible for the horrors of the Holocaust st V >ED>V >ED>V >the same kind of "racial sterotyping" that the Nazis engag V >ED>V > V >ED>V >ED>So.... in light of the above sentence, what then is affirmati V >ED>V > V >ED>V >An attempt to reverse a history of apartheid that existed in thi V >ED>V >country. And which still continues to have "echoes" in our time V > V >ED>So you are saying that affirmative reaction is in response to apart V >ED>our society TODAY, not to redress past grievances? V > V >Both. V > V >Obviously the apartheid that existed in the 1950's and early 1960's wa V >worse because it was both de facto and de jure segregration. Now de V >jure segregration has been aboloished. But the de facto discriminatio V >still exists. I'm not trying to be cute here, but I really don't understand. So you feel that the purpose of affirmative action is to deal with the injustices of the 1950s not the 1850s? That we can't be held responsible for the injustices of the 1850s? --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Thursday, June 4, 1998 12:08pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 746630 To: Kkid Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746618, Reply to #746542, Reply to #746536) KK>NI>Is it really the end of Cuny, or something that should have happened a KK>NI>long time ago. KK>NI>I went to a community college, which in my opinion is just barly one KK>NI>step above high school. KK>NI>Personally, it really sucks when you are paying for school & have to KK>NI>take remerial classes. KK>NI>--- KK>NI> þ OLX 2.1 TD þ --T-A+G-L-I+N-E--+M-E-A+S-U-R+I-N-G+--G-A+U-G-E-- KK>I agree with you. You should not have to pay for those remedial courses. KK>You should be able to sue the high school that gave you a diploma! KK>It is the high school's job to ensure that you pass those basic exams. True, but the problem is that when you pay your tution, you pay for any remedial classes you have to take. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ This tagline is nonexistent and cannot be read by people Date: Thursday, June 4, 1998 9:30pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 746632 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746623, Reply to #746617, Reply to #746536) (1 reply) VI>KK>And I am quite happy, actually overjoyed that this step was finally VI>KK>taken. I knew it was going to happen. VI>How can you be overjoyed by this step when people are going to suffer VI>as a result of this step? Maybe it will be just one kid who could have VI>been reached by remedial education and gone on to become a more VI>productive member of society. But just one wasted life is one too many. It won't be as you say. I say it will be hundreds who will be saved. The standards on the high school level will be raised and that is where the remediation will take place. All I maintain is that basic high school subject remediation is supposed to take place on the high school Aevel and not on the college level. And I am sure you are aware that they are not doing away with the remediation. They will move these students to the community colleges at first. VI>KK> It was only a question of when. VI>KK>It is not up to the college to remediate what should have been learned VI>Additionally, I went to CUNY, which was "open enrollment". However, VI>colleges got to pick and choose which students they would admit. I VI>believe that is still the case. VI>My understanding is that Brooklyn College and Queens College are still VI>pretty selective as to which kids they will admit. Even those schools, VI>however, have to allow for remedial education because there are plenty VI>of bright kids, like myself, who are overall good students but are weak VI>in one of the "core required" classes (ie. Math or Science). Indeed, VI>that's one of the main problems that I have with this suggestion. What VI>is going to happen to these kids? I doubt that I could have based a VI>college level calculus class without remedial education! At this point, any student can enroll in any city college as long as they can pay. Academic achievement has nothing to do with it. That is why they instituted those 3 basic exams. They found that a majority of students were not only not ready for college material,but still required HS remediation! Even SAT scores are no longer necessary for the city colleges. You only need them for the private and out of state colleges. These scores DO count in the city colleges in terms of enabling you to receive various scholarships. VI>I agree with you 100% on this point. But it seems that we are mixing VI>apples and oranges here. Just abolishing remedial education at the VI>university level won't end social promotion in the high school or VI>elementary school level. And to get back to my earlier point, what do VI>you do with the uneven kids? In high school I pulled "As" in every VI>class except math, where I was lucky to get "Cs". Rest assured that they will not abolish remedial education. What do you mean by uneven kids? If you do not deserve to graduate you should not graduate. You may as well ask what we should do with special education students. These questions are being asked. B Date: Thursday, June 4, 1998 9:33pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 746633 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746624, Reply to #746619, Reply to #746547, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>No! CUNY is not the last chance. The kids should go back to high school VI>KK>and take those classes again. I would have no problem with having those VI>KK>same remedial classes set up at the high schools. VI>No one has suggested that. These kids have already been dumped out of VI>the Board of Ed school system. So some city institution has to deal VI>with them, otherwise we will all live to regret it in the long run. The point is that they should not be dumped ouyt of the city institution until they are ready to graduate or until they age out or withdraw voluntarily. The other option is to enroll in schools that teach a trade like plumbing and automechanics. The board of ed has such high schools. There really is no reason why every student has to sit in school until he has mastered working with trignometric identities. Date: Thursday, June 4, 1998 9:35pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 746634 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746625, Reply to #746620, Reply to #746557, R*) (1 reply) VI>Actually, the trade schools for plumbers, electricians and other union VI>jobs are very hard to get into. I know first hand that these guys make VI>very good money. I have deposed many, many "blue collar' workers in my VI>legal career and have glumped when they tell me how much money they VI>earn! They are very easy to get into. I am referring to high schools like Grady which is one of many NYC high schools which actually prepare students for actual jobs. Date: Friday, June 5, 1998 8:46am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746636 To: Editor Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746627, Reply to #746621, Reply to #746608, R*) ED>V >ED>What does that have to do with remedial education in college? All I ED>V >ED>saying is that there are many reasons someone doesn't get into coll ED>V >ED>Lousy high schools are one. Using the colleges to fix screwed up hi ED>V >ED>schools is simply rewarding the people in the high schools who scre ED>V >ED>in the first place. Another reason is that someone simply doesn't N ED>V >ED>college education and isn't suited to it. And so on. We are in a so ED>V >ED>where it is vital that everyone be able to read, write and do simpl ED>V >ED>arithmetic. When I grew up, that was accomplished in the first six ED>V >ED>schooling. Putting that into the college system is no right. ED>V > ED>V >I think that we in society have an obligation to give our kids a decen ED>V >education. In a prefect world remedial education would be either ED>V >nonexistant or very rare at the college level. But we live in a far ED>V >from perfect world. In the end, I believe, that if you don't give the ED>V >kids a decent education it will be society that will pay. So you try ED>V >reach them any way you can to give them the means to earn a decent ED>V >living. ED>A decent education means a college degree? A decent education used to mean ED>that you could read, write and do arithmetic well enough to pursue your ED>desired career, be it doctor, lawyer, accountant, air conditioner repair, ED>TV repair, plumber, carpenter or garbage hauler. Last time I looked, ED>someone who drives a train for the TA makes somewhere in the 60s with ED>medical benefits, a retirement plan that you and I can only dream of, plus ED>a 35 hour work week. Now I'm all in favor of everyone getting a look at ED>Shakespeare, but how would college impact that man's opportunity to earn a ED>living. In our postindustrial economy I think that a college education is more or less a necessity to make a decent income. And I am sure that the TA gets 200 applicants for every 1 train operator position! Date: Friday, June 5, 1998 8:54am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746637 To: Editor Re: Memories I (Reply to #746628, Reply to #746622, Reply to #746609, R*) ED>V >ED>V >ED>V >I think as a general rule you can't hold people personally ED>V >ED>V >ED>V >for the sins of past generation. To hold Germans born aft ED>V >ED>V >ED>V >personally responsible for the horrors of the Holocaust st ED>V >ED>V >ED>V >the same kind of "racial sterotyping" that the Nazis engag ED>V >ED>V > ED>V >ED>V >ED>So.... in light of the above sentence, what then is affirmati ED>V >ED>V > ED>V >ED>V >An attempt to reverse a history of apartheid that existed in thi ED>V >ED>V >country. And which still continues to have "echoes" in our time ED>V > ED>V >ED>So you are saying that affirmative reaction is in response to apart ED>V >ED>our society TODAY, not to redress past grievances? ED>V > ED>V >Both. ED>V > ED>V >Obviously the apartheid that existed in the 1950's and early 1960's wa ED>V >worse because it was both de facto and de jure segregration. Now de ED>V >jure segregration has been aboloished. But the de facto discriminatio ED>V >still exists. ED>I'm not trying to be cute here, but I really don't understand. So you feel ED>that the purpose of affirmative action is to deal with the injustices of ED>the 1950s not the 1850s? That we can't be held responsible for the ED>injustices of the 1850s? This rather dovetails nicely into the discussion we were having earlier regarding the responsibility of contemporary Germans (born after 1946) for the Nazi holocaust. Obviously every single slave holder in this country is long dead and buried. But I do believe that the American society, as a whole, is responsible for permitting the slave trade to exist. And we are equally responsible for permitting de jure discrimination against black people to exist after the Civil War--from the 1860's through the 1950's. The system of de jure segregration that existed in the American south in the 1950's was a continuation of the one that was put into place as a backlash against the attempted reforms of Reconstruction following the Civil War. And this system of de jure segreagation wasn't legally ended until the passage of the Civil Rights Acts of 1964 and 1965. Date: Friday, June 5, 1998 9:16am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746638 To: Kkid Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746632, Reply to #746623, Reply to #746617, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>KK>And I am quite happy, actually overjoyed that this step was finally KK>VI>KK>taken. I knew it was going to happen. KK>VI>How can you be overjoyed by this step when people are going to suffer KK>VI>as a result of this step? Maybe it will be just one kid who could have KK>VI>been reached by remedial education and gone on to become a more KK>VI>productive member of society. But just one wasted life is one too many. KK>It won't be as you say. I say it will be hundreds who will be saved. KK>The standards on the high school level will be raised and that is where KK>the remediation will take place. All I maintain is that basic high KK>school subject remediation is supposed to take place on the high school KK>Aevel and not on the college level. And I am sure you are aware that KK>they are not doing away with the remediation. They will move these KK>students to the community colleges at first. This a mighty big presumption on your part--that the standards in high school will take place and that remediation will take place there. I remember when there was a wholesale release of mental patients following the Willowbrook expose. There were all sorts of promises that there would be outpatient clinics to take care of these people. And what do we have now? How many of those outpatients clinics were actually opened in the neighborhoods throughout the city? And what do we have now? We have hundreds, if not thousands, of mentally ill people wandering our streets homeless. And I trace this homeless problem directly to the wholesale release of mentally ill people and the failure to provide proper medical care for these people. (Just to be clear, not every homeless person is mentally ill. But there is certainly a large percentage of mentally ill people among the homeless population. ) What makes you think this is going to be any different? As far as I am concerned you are just buying a rather cynical PR campaign of the CUNY Trustees. I have no doubt that you are sincere in your beliefs. But I also believe that the CUNY Board of Trustees was just interested in one thing--their bottom line and the balancing their budget. They don't give a damn what happens to the kids who fail to get proper schooling on the High School and elementary school levels. That is literally not their problem. KK>VI>KK> It was only a question of when. KK>VI>KK>It is not up to the college to remediate what should have been learned KK>VI>Additionally, I went to CUNY, which was "open enrollment". However, KK>VI>colleges got to pick and choose which students they would admit. I KK>VI>believe that is still the case. KK>VI>My understanding is that Brooklyn College and Queens College are still KK>VI>pretty selective as to which kids they will admit. Even those schools, KK>VI>however, have to allow for remedial education because there are plenty KK>VI>of bright kids, like myself, who are overall good students but are weak KK>VI>in one of the "core required" classes (ie. Math or Science). Indeed, KK>VI>that's one of the main problems that I have with this suggestion. What KK>VI>is going to happen to these kids? I doubt that I could have based a KK>VI>college level calculus class without remedial education! KK>At this point, any student can enroll in any city college as long as KK>they can pay. Academic achievement has nothing to do with it. That is KK>why they instituted those 3 basic exams. They found that a majority of KK>students were not only not ready for college material,but still required KK>HS remediation! Even SAT scores are no longer necessary for the city KK>colleges. You only need them for the private and out of state colleges. KK>These scores DO count in the city colleges in terms of enabling you to KK>receive various scholarships. That is not my understanding of how things work. Do you know any one who is currently enrolled at a CUNY senior college or who teaches at a CUNY senior college now? My former lover Gerri graduated Brooklyn College in 1990. So my knowledge of what went on at Brooklyn College is for the years 1986-1990. KK>VI>I agree with you 100% on this point. But it seems that we are mixing KK>VI>apples and oranges here. Just abolishing remedial education at the KK>VI>university level won't end social promotion in the high school or KK>VI>elementary school level. And to get back to my earlier point, what do KK>VI>you do with the uneven kids? In high school I pulled "As" in every KK>VI>class except math, where I was lucky to get "Cs". KK>Rest assured that they will not abolish remedial education. That's EXACTLY what they are going to do. They are not going to offer any remedial classes in the senior college at all, period. Editor seems to think they may offer summer remedial courses. But I don't think a summer remedial class would be enough to get me through college level calculus. And I graduated Queens College with a 3.89 average! Note, however, the only reason my college average was so high was that I did NOT take any college level math courses! KK>What do you mean by uneven kids? If you do not deserve to graduate you KK>should not graduate. You may as well ask what we should do with special KK>education students. These questions are being asked. I tried to explain what I mean by an uneven kid by holding up myself as an example. I did exceptionally well in all courses except math. I just seem to have a mental block toward arthematic. I can't add, subtract, multiply or divide without making an error--unless of course I use a calculator! Back when I took math classes we were NOT allowed to use a calcuator. The only thing that was allowed was a protractor and a compass--and this was for high school level geometry class. So are you saying I didn't deserve to graduate college? KK>B Date: Friday, June 5, 1998 4:23pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 746639 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746638, Reply to #746632, Reply to #746623, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>the remediation will take place. All I maintain is that basic high VI>KK>school subject remediation is supposed to take place on the high school VI>KK>Aevel and not on the college level. And I am sure you are aware that VI>KK>they are not doing away with the remediation. They will move these VI>KK>students to the community colleges at first. VI>This a mighty big presumption on your part--that the standards in high VI>school will take place and that remediation will take place there. Because the standards have already been raised. The RCT's have already been phased out for all incoming students. Regents are being phased in. Any student that will be able to pass these regents will certainly be ready for college if they chose to enter. VI>As far as I am concerned you are just buying a rather cynical PR VI>campaign of the CUNY Trustees. I have no doubt that you are sincere in VI>your beliefs. But I also believe that the CUNY Board of Trustees was VI>just interested in one thing--their bottom line and the balancing their VI>budget. They don't give a damn what happens to the kids who fail to VI>get proper schooling on the High School and elementary school levels. VI>That is literally not their problem. I would say Au Contraire (or however it is spelled). The CUNY trustees were not cynical. They were being pressured by the individuals who understood that college was becoming a sham! The CUNY Board of Trustees had no problem with the budget as a result of these remediation courses. Students were paying full tuition per credit for these courses. They were doing this year after year until they were able to pass the particular exam they origonally failed. They have to be concerned with their standards and not the high school and elementary school standards. If the high schools are interested in having their students make it into college (and they are) then they will now be pressured into assuring that their students meet the necessary requirements. What has been going on now for a number of years is that most highschool texts were being written on a 6th grade level, and most college texts were ending up being written on a high school level. It used to be that a NY high school diploma was a joke, and now a CUNY college diploma was becoming a joke as well. VI>That is not my understanding of how things work. Do you know any one VI>who is currently enrolled at a CUNY senior college or who teaches at a VI>CUNY senior college now? My former lover Gerri graduated Brooklyn VI>College in 1990. So my knowledge of what went on at Brooklyn College VI>is for the years 1986-1990. My knowledge of CUNY colleges should be correct. I am a teacher and do get students ready for college. My wife and I both attended Brooklyn College. My older daughter graduated from Brooklyn College, and my younger daughter is now attending Brooklyn College on a Presedential scholarship. I am not trying to mislead you. If I don't know something, I admit that I don't know, or I say I am not sure of my facts. VI>KK>Rest assured that they will not abolish remedial education. VI>That's EXACTLY what they are going to do. They are not going to offer VI>any remedial classes in the senior college at all, period. I assume that by senior college you mean the colleges that are not community colleges. You are correct. There is no reason at all that they should offer remediation. Step back for a moment and think. The purpose of Brooklyn College, for example, is to give you a college education. It is not to reteach 6th grade math. So they decided that the community colleges will do that. I don't think that they should but they will. VI> Editor seems to think they may offer summer remedial courses. But I VI>don't think a summer remedial class would be enough to get me through VI>college level calculus. And I graduated Queens College with a 3.89 VI>average! Note, however, the only reason my college average was so high VI>was that I did NOT take any college level math courses! There are certain core courses everyone is required to take once in college. Calculus is not one of them. If you want to major in engineering, for example, then you will need calculus. No where does it say that every person taking every course will pass. No where does it say that every person is even capable of passing every course EVEN with remediation. Many of us in the US seem to feel THAT is not fair. I don't see it that way. Not everyone can be an engineer, a doctor, or even an electrician. College is not for everyone! VI>KK>What do you mean by uneven kids? If you do not deserve to graduate you VI>KK>should not graduate. You may as well ask what we should do with special VI>KK>education students. These questions are being asked. VI>I tried to explain what I mean by an uneven kid by holding up myself as VI>an example. VI>I did exceptionally well in all courses except math. I just seem to VI>have a mental block toward arthematic. I can't add, subtract, multiply VI>or divide without making an error--unless of course I use a calculator! VI> Back when I took math classes we were NOT allowed to use a calcuator. VI>The only thing that was allowed was a protractor and a compass--and VI>this was for high school level geometry class. It is unfortunate that students now are permitted to use a calculator before their math skills are truly assessed. It is persumed that since they are in HS they must already know their basic math. I am now teaching a HS student. His mom tells me that he was in the gifted programs all his life. He still can not tell me what 7 X 6 is unless he spends about 25 -30 seconds counting on his fingers! Yep, a calculator will give him the right answer if he pushes the proper keys, but he will have no idea whether or not his answer is correct as he has no idea how to estimate an answer. We now not only permit calculators, but even provide the students with the necessary formulas. The problem is that they have no idea when to use a particular formula. VI>So are you saying I didn't deserve to graduate college? But you did graduate. I really don't understand your question. If you needed 128 credits to graduate and you had them then you deserve to graduate. If you only had 127.5 credits then you didn't deserve to graduate. If 9 of those credits had to be in math and you had them then you fulfilled your requirement. If you only had 8 math credits then you didn't. It works the same way in high school. They will not let you graduate even if you are missing one gym class ( and those don't even count towards your index). Date: Sunday, June 7, 1998 8:29am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746643 To: Kkid Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746633, Reply to #746624, Reply to #746619, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>KK>No! CUNY is not the last chance. The kids should go back to high schoo KK>VI>KK>and take those classes again. I would have no problem with having thos KK>VI>KK>same remedial classes set up at the high schools. KK>VI>No one has suggested that. These kids have already been dumped out of KK>VI>the Board of Ed school system. So some city institution has to deal KK>VI>with them, otherwise we will all live to regret it in the long run. KK>The point is that they should not be dumped ouyt of the city institution KK>until they are ready to graduate or until they age out or withdraw KK>voluntarily. The other option is to enroll in schools that teach a trade KK>like plumbing and automechanics. The board of ed has such high schools. KK>There really is no reason why every student has to sit in school until KK>he has mastered working with trignometric identities. I agree with you what you are saying 100%. But the reality is that kids are dumped out of the Board of Ed schools without getting a decent education. Ending remedial education on the college level will not stop this problem. We have to go to the root of the problem and improve the education that kids receive an the elmentary, junior high and high school levels. Date: Sunday, June 7, 1998 8:32am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746644 To: Kkid Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746634, Reply to #746625, Reply to #746620, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>Actually, the trade schools for plumbers, electricians and other union KK>VI>jobs are very hard to get into. I know first hand that these guys make KK>VI>very good money. I have deposed many, many "blue collar' workers in my KK>VI>legal career and have glumped when they tell me how much money they KK>VI>earn! KK>They are very easy to get into. I am referring to high schools like KK>Grady which is one of many NYC high schools which actually prepare KK>students for actual jobs. Never heard of Grady Hi. But I am aware that there are "trade" high schools. Ie, there is Clara Burton High School which prepares kids for nursing careers, which is located right outside of the Brooklyn Bontantical Gardens. There is still, however, the problem that blue collar jobs are generally on the decline. So the job market, on the whole, requires a much higher level of literacy than the job market of the 40's,50's, and even 60's. Date: Sunday, June 7, 1998 9:07am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746645 To: Kkid Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746639, Reply to #746638, Reply to #746632, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>KK>the remediation will take place. All I maintain is that basic high KK>VI>KK>school subject remediation is supposed to take place on the high schoo KK>VI>KK>Aevel and not on the college level. And I am sure you are aware that KK>VI>KK>they are not doing away with the remediation. They will move these KK>VI>KK>students to the community colleges at first. KK>VI>This a mighty big presumption on your part--that the standards in high KK>VI>school will take place and that remediation will take place there. KK>Because the standards have already been raised. The RCT's have already KK>been phased out for all incoming students. Regents are being phased in. KK>Any student that will be able to pass these regents will certainly KK>be ready for college if they chose to enter. RCTs? Never heard of that? I have heard of the Regents exams, of course. BTW--you shouldn't assume that a student who can pass a Regents exam can handle the college material in that subject level. I managed to pass the Regents exam in high school alegbra, geometry and trig. But I doubt that I could have handled college level calclus without remedial classes. That's because the minute I walked out my Regents exams in high school level math I immediately forgot just about everything I learned in that class! :) KK>VI>As far as I am concerned you are just buying a rather cynical PR KK>VI>campaign of the CUNY Trustees. I have no doubt that you are sincere in KK>VI>your beliefs. But I also believe that the CUNY Board of Trustees was KK>VI>just interested in one thing--their bottom line and the balancing their KK>VI>budget. They don't give a damn what happens to the kids who fail to KK>VI>get proper schooling on the High School and elementary school levels. KK>VI>That is literally not their problem. KK>I would say Au Contraire (or however it is spelled). The CUNY trustees KK>were not cynical. They were being pressured by the individuals who KK>understood that college was becoming a sham! The CUNY Board of Trustees KK>had no problem with the budget as a result of these remediation courses. KK>Students were paying full tuition per credit for these courses. They KK>were doing this year after year until they were able to pass KK>the particular exam they origonally failed. They have to be concerned KK>with their standards and not the high school and elementary school KK>standards. If the high schools are interested in having their students KK>make it into college (and they are) then they will now be pressured into KK>assuring that their students meet the necessary requirements. KK>What has been going on now for a number of years is that most highschool KK>texts were being written on a 6th grade level, and most college texts KK>were ending up being written on a high school level. It used to be that KK>a NY high school diploma was a joke, and now a CUNY college diploma was KK>becoming a joke as well. That's not my understanding. But even if this is true, what does remedial education have to do with it? You have two different kinds of classes at the CUNY schools--the remedial classes and the regular classes. The remedial classes are no credit courses. A student shouldn't be able to pass a remedial class in any subject until he or she is ready and able to handle the college level on that subject. You can and should have very high standards on the "regular" college level courses and still offer remedial classes on the CUNY level. Just eliminating the remedial classes won't raise the standards of the "regular" college courses. If anything I predict it will actually lead to a LOWERING of the standards. No college professor wants to fail a large number of students because to do so would suggest, on a certain level, that he or she has failed as a professor. The elmination of the remedial courses will mean that there are a greater number of students enrolled in the "regular" classes who really aren't able to handle the college level material. So social pressures will lead to profs allowing more students to slide, not less. KK>VI>That is not my understanding of how things work. Do you know any one KK>VI>who is currently enrolled at a CUNY senior college or who teaches at a KK>VI>CUNY senior college now? My former lover Gerri graduated Brooklyn KK>VI>College in 1990. So my knowledge of what went on at Brooklyn College KK>VI>is for the years 1986-1990. KK>My knowledge of CUNY colleges should be correct. I am a teacher and do KK>get students ready for college. My wife and I both attended Brooklyn KK>College. My older daughter graduated from Brooklyn College, and my KK>younger daughter is now attending Brooklyn College on a Presedential KK>scholarship. I am not trying to mislead you. If I don't know something, KK>I admit that I don't know, or I say I am not sure of my facts. I'm impressed with your younger daughter. You must be very proud of her. That sounds very impressive--a Presidential scholarship. :) KK>VI>KK>Rest assured that they will not abolish remedial education. KK>VI>That's EXACTLY what they are going to do. They are not going to offer KK>VI>any remedial classes in the senior college at all, period. KK>I assume that by senior college you mean the colleges that are not KK>community colleges. You are correct. There is no reason at all that they KK>should offer remediation. Step back for a moment and think. The purpose KK>of Brooklyn College, for example, is to give you a college education. It KK>is not to reteach 6th grade math. KK>So they decided that the community colleges will do that. KK>I don't think that they should but they will. Why do you object to the community colleges teaching remedial math? As a person who has a major league mental block when it comes to math, I know the necessity of continual remediation and tutoring in math! KK>VI> Editor seems to think they may offer summer remedial courses. But I KK>VI>don't think a summer remedial class would be enough to get me through KK>VI>college level calculus. And I graduated Queens College with a 3.89 KK>VI>average! Note, however, the only reason my college average was so high KK>VI>was that I did NOT take any college level math courses! KK>There are certain core courses everyone is required to take once in KK>college. Calculus is not one of them. If you want to major in KK>engineering, for example, then you will need calculus. KK>No where does it say that every person taking every course will pass. KK>No where does it say that every person is even capable of passing every KK>course EVEN with remediation. Many of us in the US seem to feel THAT is KK>not fair. I don't see it that way. Not everyone can be an engineer, a KK>doctor, or even an electrician. College is not for everyone! When I graudated Queens College there was no core curiculum. I am trying to remember from time to Gerri whether calculus was one of the core classes. But I can't recall. KK>VI>KK>What do you mean by uneven kids? If you do not deserve to graduate you KK>VI>KK>should not graduate. You may as well ask what we should do with specia KK>VI>KK>education students. These questions are being asked. KK>VI>I tried to explain what I mean by an uneven kid by holding up myself as KK>VI>an example. KK>VI>I did exceptionally well in all courses except math. I just seem to KK>VI>have a mental block toward arthematic. I can't add, subtract, multiply KK>VI>or divide without making an error--unless of course I use a calculator! KK>VI> Back when I took math classes we were NOT allowed to use a calcuator. KK>VI>The only thing that was allowed was a protractor and a compass--and KK>VI>this was for high school level geometry class. KK>It is unfortunate that students now are permitted to use a calculator KK>before their math skills are truly assessed. It is persumed that since KK>they are in HS they must already know their basic math. I am now KK>teaching a HS student. His mom tells me that he was in the gifted KK>programs all his life. He still can not tell me what 7 X 6 is unless he KK>spends about 25 -30 seconds counting on his fingers! Yep, a calculator KK>will give him the right answer if he pushes the proper keys, but he will KK>have no idea whether or not his answer is correct as he has no idea how KK>to estimate an answer. We now not only permit calculators, but even KK>provide the students with the necessary formulas. The problem is that KK>they have no idea when to use a particular formula. And I am just like that "gifted" kid. I was also in the "IGS" (Intelligent Gifted Students) classes all throughout my education in the Board of Education system and couldn't tell you how much is 7 x 6 is without counting on my fingers. Still can't be the way, except of course if I use a calcuator! I swear this is because they abandoned drilling the students in the tables while the students are in first, second and third grades. My mother was born in 1919 and went to a NYC elementary school. She always told me that when she went to school they used to make every student learn the addition, subtraction, multiplication and division tables by rote. They used to go down the row of students and have one student recite "One times one equals one", the next student would recite "One times two equals two.' and so on. Students used to have to stand in front of the class and recite the tables from memory. I don't remember any thing like that when we were in school! KK>VI>So are you saying I didn't deserve to graduate college? KK>But you did graduate. I really don't understand your question. If you KK>needed 128 credits to graduate and you had them then you deserve to KK>graduate. If you only had 127.5 credits then you didn't deserve to KK>graduate. If 9 of those credits had to be in math and you had them then KK>you fulfilled your requirement. If you only had 8 math credits then you KK>didn't. It works the same way in high school. They will not let you KK>graduate even if you are missing one gym class ( and those don't even KK>count towards your index). Of course I had enough credits to graduate. I just didn't have any credits in math or science for that matter. They were not required at this point because there was no core curiculum at the CUNY schools. But if the core curiculum had been in place I would have a very hard time passing a college level math class. BTW, I didn't take any science classes in college because I wanted to have a very high average to improve my chances of getting into law school. Date: Sunday, June 7, 1998 4:32pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 746647 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746643, Reply to #746633, Reply to #746624, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>The point is that they should not be dumped ouyt of the city institution VI>KK>until they are ready to graduate or until they age out or withdraw VI>KK>voluntarily. The other option is to enroll in schools that teach a trade VI>KK>like plumbing and automechanics. The board of ed has such high schools. VI>KK>There really is no reason why every student has to sit in school until VI>KK>he has mastered working with trignometric identities. VI>I agree with you what you are saying 100%. But the reality is that VI>kids are dumped out of the Board of Ed schools without getting a decent VI>education. Ending remedial education on the college level will not VI>stop this problem. We have to go to the root of the problem and VI>improve the education that kids receive an the elmentary, junior high VI>and high school levels. I agree with you too :-) The root of the problems as you have identified it is at the elementary, and junior high, and high school levels. That is where the remediation should take place. It is silly to say it is not taking place there so the colleges should do it. The answer is that instead of the colleges doing it, it should be done at the lower grades. A student who reads, writes, and does math at a 6th grade level should not graduate,and should certainly not be led to blieve that he is ready for a college education! Date: Sunday, June 7, 1998 4:34pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 746648 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746644, Reply to #746634, Reply to #746625, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>VI>Actually, the trade schools for plumbers, electricians and other union VI>KK>VI>jobs are very hard to get into. I know first hand that these guys mak VI>KK>VI>very good money. I have deposed many, many "blue collar' workers in m VI>KK>VI>legal career and have glumped when they tell me how much money they VI>KK>VI>earn! VI>KK>They are very easy to get into. I am referring to high schools like VI>KK>Grady which is one of many NYC high schools which actually prepare VI>KK>students for actual jobs. VI>Never heard of Grady Hi. But I am aware that there are "trade" high VI>schools. Ie, there is Clara Burton High School which prepares kids for VI>nursing careers, which is located right outside of the Brooklyn VI>Bontantical Gardens. VI>There is still, however, the problem that blue collar jobs are VI>generally on the decline. So the job market, on the whole, requires a VI>much higher level of literacy than the job market of the 40's,50's, and VI>even 60's. Clara Barton still requires a more or less heavy load of high school subjects. Grady is more work oriented. I have taught students from both schools. Date: Sunday, June 7, 1998 4:57pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 746649 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746645, Reply to #746639, Reply to #746638, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>Because the standards have already been raised. The RCT's have already VI>KK>been phased out for all incoming students. Regents are being phased in. VI>KK>Any student that will be able to pass these regents will certainly VI>KK>be ready for college if they chose to enter. VI>RCTs? Never heard of that? I have heard of the Regents exams, of VI>course. In our days of school there were Regents. What started happening was that most (and I am not exaggerating when I say most) public school students were not passing these regents, so someone in their infinite wisdom decided to lower graduateion standards by introducing RCT's (Regent's Competency Exams). Sounds nice but the tests were more or less on a 6th or 7th grade level. It was quite embarrassing administering some of these exams to Russian students who laughed and said they learned this material in the 3rd and 4th grade. And now they were being asked to take this exam as a criterion for enabling them to graduate high school in the USA! Now someone else in their infinite wisdom decided to do away with RCT's. This genius does not even remember that things used to be that way. The teacher's however remember. We were all against RCT's. VI>BTW--you shouldn't assume that a student who can pass a Regents exam VI>can handle the college material in that subject level. VI>I managed to pass the Regents exam in high school alegbra, geometry and VI>trig. But I doubt that I could have handled college level calclus VI>without remedial classes. That's because the minute I walked out my VI>Regents exams in high school level math I immediately forgot just about VI>everything I learned in that class! :) But nothing said you had to take calculus unless your major required it! VI>That's not my understanding. But even if this is true, what does VI>remedial education have to do with it? VI> You have two different kinds of classes at the CUNY schools--the VI>remedial classes and the regular classes. The remedial classes are no VI>credit courses. A student shouldn't be able to pass a remedial class in VI>any subject until he or she is ready and able to handle the college VI>level on that subject. You can and should have very high standards on VI>the "regular" college level courses and still offer remedial classes on VI>the CUNY level. Remedial classes that deal with 7th or 8th grade material belong in high school for free, not in college. VI>Just eliminating the remedial classes won't raise the standards of the VI>"regular" college courses. If anything I predict it will actually lead VI>to a LOWERING of the standards. No college professor wants to fail a VI>large number of students because to do so would suggest, on a certain VI>level, that he or she has failed as a professor. The elmination of the VI>remedial courses will mean that there are a greater number of students VI>enrolled in the "regular" classes who really aren't able to handle the VI>college level material. So social pressures will lead to profs VI>allowing more students to slide, not less. VI> That is exactly what has been happening now! Ask some college professors what they have to say about the level of students they are now teaching. VI>Why do you object to the community colleges teaching remedial math? As VI>a person who has a major league mental block when it comes to math, I VI>know the necessity of continual remediation and tutoring in math! Any remediation of non college material should be done on a high school level for FREE! VI>KK>There are certain core courses everyone is required to take once in VI>KK>college. Calculus is not one of them. If you want to major in VI>KK>engineering, for example, then you will need calculus. VI>KK>No where does it say that every person taking every course will pass. VI>KK>No where does it say that every person is even capable of passing every VI>KK>course EVEN with remediation. Many of us in the US seem to feel THAT is VI>KK>not fair. I don't see it that way. Not everyone can be an engineer, a VI>KK>doctor, or even an electrician. College is not for everyone! VI>When I graudated Queens College there was no core curiculum. I am VI>trying to remember from time to Gerri whether calculus was one of the VI>core classes. But I can't recall. I don't recall calculus ever being a required class. VI>And I am just like that "gifted" kid. I was also in the "IGS" VI>(Intelligent Gifted Students) classes all throughout my education in VI>the Board of Education system and couldn't tell you how much is 7 x 6 VI>is without counting on my fingers. Still can't be the way, except of VI>course if I use a calcuator! VI>I swear this is because they abandoned drilling the students in the VI>tables while the students are in first, second and third grades. VI>My mother was born in 1919 and went to a NYC elementary school. She VI>always told me that when she went to school they used to make every VI>student learn the addition, subtraction, multiplication and division VI>tables by rote. They used to go down the row of students and have one VI>student recite "One times one equals one", the next student would VI>recite "One times two equals two.' and so on. Students used to have to VI>stand in front of the class and recite the tables from memory. I don't VI>remember any thing like that when we were in school! Well that is still how every good teacher does it! I am now teaching a 2nd grader who by this time next year we be more math savvy than this intellectually gifted high school student. This 2nd grader can already estimate whether or not an answer makes sense. The high school student still can't do this. If one day his fingers or calculator tell him that 7 X 6 is 90, that is the answer he will put down. VI>Of course I had enough credits to graduate. I just didn't have any VI>credits in math or science for that matter. They were not required at VI>this point because there was no core curiculum at the CUNY schools. VI>But if the core curiculum had been in place I would have a very hard VI>time passing a college level math class. VI>BTW, I didn't take any science classes in college because I wanted to VI>have a very high average to improve my chances of getting into law VI>school. In my days, and yours as well, there were a certain number of math, science, history and English credits that were needed before you received your HS diploma. Once in college if you had the required amount of credits in a spcific area you really had to take perhaps one more general course in that specific area. The only time you had to take math or science credits was if your selected major required it. It is still that way. Date: Monday, June 8, 1998 6:15am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746662 To: Kkid Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746647, Reply to #746643, Reply to #746633, R*) (2 replies) KK>VI>KK>The point is that they should not be dumped ouyt of the city instituti KK>VI>KK>until they are ready to graduate or until they age out or withdraw KK>VI>KK>voluntarily. The other option is to enroll in schools that teach a tra KK>VI>KK>like plumbing and automechanics. The board of ed has such high schools KK>VI>KK>There really is no reason why every student has to sit in school until KK>VI>KK>he has mastered working with trignometric identities. KK>VI>I agree with you what you are saying 100%. But the reality is that KK>VI>kids are dumped out of the Board of Ed schools without getting a decent KK>VI>education. Ending remedial education on the college level will not KK>VI>stop this problem. We have to go to the root of the problem and KK>VI>improve the education that kids receive an the elmentary, junior high KK>VI>and high school levels. KK>I agree with you too :-) KK>The root of the problems as you have identified it is at the elementary, KK>and junior high, and high school levels. That is where the remediation KK>should take place. It is silly to say it is not taking place there so KK>the colleges should do it. The answer is that instead of the colleges KK>doing it, it should be done at the lower grades. A student who reads, KK>writes, and does math at a 6th grade level should not graduate,and KK>should certainly not be led to blieve that he is ready for a college KK>education! In my opinion there will always be a need for remediation on the college level, because there will always be kids who fall behind on certain subjects. Of course, the primary objective should be to make sure kids master what they need to know on an elementary school level before they pass on to junior high...and so. But I don't really see the commitment to spend the money and the resources necessary to go about doing this. And meanwhile, so much money is being wasted. Did you catch the article in yesterday's Daily News about how much money the President of the Borough of Manhattan spends on entertainment? It was scandalous! Date: Monday, June 8, 1998 6:20am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746663 To: Kkid Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746648, Reply to #746644, Reply to #746634, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>KK>VI>Actually, the trade schools for plumbers, electricians and other un KK>VI>KK>VI>jobs are very hard to get into. I know first hand that these guys KK>VI>KK>VI>very good money. I have deposed many, many "blue collar' workers i KK>VI>KK>VI>legal career and have glumped when they tell me how much money they KK>VI>KK>VI>earn! KK>VI>KK>They are very easy to get into. I am referring to high schools like KK>VI>KK>Grady which is one of many NYC high schools which actually prepare KK>VI>KK>students for actual jobs. KK>VI>Never heard of Grady Hi. But I am aware that there are "trade" high KK>VI>schools. Ie, there is Clara Burton High School which prepares kids for KK>VI>nursing careers, which is located right outside of the Brooklyn KK>VI>Bontantical Gardens. KK>VI>There is still, however, the problem that blue collar jobs are KK>VI>generally on the decline. So the job market, on the whole, requires a KK>VI>much higher level of literacy than the job market of the 40's,50's, and KK>VI>even 60's. KK>Clara Barton still requires a more or less heavy load of high school KK>subjects. Grady is more work oriented. I have taught students from both KK>schools. When my mother went to high school they had in NYC three different types of high schools. Academic high schools were for students who were going to go on to college. Commercial high schools trained students for office work--for females that meant secretarial jobs. General high schools were meant for students who going on to blue collar, factory type jobs. Generally the brightest kids went to academic high schools, commercial high schools were for average kids and general high schools were for the least intelligent students. Would Grady be similiar to the old type General high school? Date: Monday, June 8, 1998 6:34am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746664 To: Kkid Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746649, Reply to #746645, Reply to #746639, R*) (2 replies) KK>VI>KK>Because the standards have already been raised. The RCT's have already KK>VI>KK>been phased out for all incoming students. Regents are being phased in KK>VI>KK>Any student that will be able to pass these regents will certainly KK>VI>KK>be ready for college if they chose to enter. KK>VI>RCTs? Never heard of that? I have heard of the Regents exams, of KK>VI>course. KK>In our days of school there were Regents. What started happening was KK>that most (and I am not exaggerating when I say most) public school KK>students were not passing these regents, so someone in their infinite KK>wisdom decided to lower graduateion standards by introducing RCT's KK>(Regent's Competency Exams). Sounds nice but the tests were more or less KK>on a 6th or 7th grade level. It was quite embarrassing administering KK>some of these exams to Russian students who laughed and said they KK>learned this material in the 3rd and 4th grade. And now they were being KK>asked to take this exam as a criterion for enabling them to graduate KK>high school in the USA! Now someone else in their infinite wisdom KK>decided to do away with RCT's. This genius does not even remember that KK>things used to be that way. The teacher's however remember. We were all KK>against RCT's. When I went to high school you didn't need to pass the Regents exams to get a high school diploma. You only needed to pass the Regents exams if you wanted to get a "Regents seal" on your diploma. And at Evander Childs High School in the Bronx (my high school) only the kids being bused in from Co-op City were going for the "Regents seal" diploma--and we were maybe 10% of the school! KK>VI>BTW--you shouldn't assume that a student who can pass a Regents exam KK>VI>can handle the college material in that subject level. KK>VI>I managed to pass the Regents exam in high school alegbra, geometry and KK>VI>trig. But I doubt that I could have handled college level calclus KK>VI>without remedial classes. That's because the minute I walked out my KK>VI>Regents exams in high school level math I immediately forgot just about KK>VI>everything I learned in that class! :) KK>But nothing said you had to take calculus unless your major required it! That's for sure! And believe me I steered very clear of it! :) KK>VI>That's not my understanding. But even if this is true, what does KK>VI>remedial education have to do with it? KK>VI> You have two different kinds of classes at the CUNY schools--the KK>VI>remedial classes and the regular classes. The remedial classes are no KK>VI>credit courses. A student shouldn't be able to pass a remedial class in KK>VI>any subject until he or she is ready and able to handle the college KK>VI>level on that subject. You can and should have very high standards on KK>VI>the "regular" college level courses and still offer remedial classes on KK>VI>the CUNY level. KK>Remedial classes that deal with 7th or 8th grade material belong in high KK>school for free, not in college. Remedial classes belong whereever there are students who need them. :) KK>VI>Just eliminating the remedial classes won't raise the standards of the KK>VI>"regular" college courses. If anything I predict it will actually lead KK>VI>to a LOWERING of the standards. No college professor wants to fail a KK>VI>large number of students because to do so would suggest, on a certain KK>VI>level, that he or she has failed as a professor. The elmination of the KK>VI>remedial courses will mean that there are a greater number of students KK>VI>enrolled in the "regular" classes who really aren't able to handle the KK>VI>college level material. So social pressures will lead to profs KK>VI>allowing more students to slide, not less. KK>VI> KK>That is exactly what has been happening now! KK>Ask some college professors what they have to say about the level of KK>students they are now teaching. And you will hear it even louder if remedial education is eliminated! KK>VI>Why do you object to the community colleges teaching remedial math? As KK>VI>a person who has a major league mental block when it comes to math, I KK>VI>know the necessity of continual remediation and tutoring in math! KK>Any remediation of non college material should be done on a high school KK>level for FREE! And will probably have to be continued in college as well. KK>VI>KK>There are certain core courses everyone is required to take once in KK>VI>KK>college. Calculus is not one of them. If you want to major in KK>VI>KK>engineering, for example, then you will need calculus. KK>VI>KK>No where does it say that every person taking every course will pass. KK>VI>KK>No where does it say that every person is even capable of passing ever KK>VI>KK>course EVEN with remediation. Many of us in the US seem to feel THAT i KK>VI>KK>not fair. I don't see it that way. Not everyone can be an engineer, a KK>VI>KK>doctor, or even an electrician. College is not for everyone! KK>VI>When I graudated Queens College there was no core curiculum. I am KK>VI>trying to remember from time to Gerri whether calculus was one of the KK>VI>core classes. But I can't recall. KK>I don't recall calculus ever being a required class. I'm pretty sure there was a college level math. But I am not 100%. Why don't you ask your daughter? She could resolve the debate. :) KK>VI>And I am just like that "gifted" kid. I was also in the "IGS" KK>VI>(Intelligent Gifted Students) classes all throughout my education in KK>VI>the Board of Education system and couldn't tell you how much is 7 x 6 KK>VI>is without counting on my fingers. Still can't be the way, except of KK>VI>course if I use a calcuator! KK>VI>I swear this is because they abandoned drilling the students in the KK>VI>tables while the students are in first, second and third grades. KK>VI>My mother was born in 1919 and went to a NYC elementary school. She KK>VI>always told me that when she went to school they used to make every KK>VI>student learn the addition, subtraction, multiplication and division KK>VI>tables by rote. They used to go down the row of students and have one KK>VI>student recite "One times one equals one", the next student would KK>VI>recite "One times two equals two.' and so on. Students used to have to KK>VI>stand in front of the class and recite the tables from memory. I don't KK>VI>remember any thing like that when we were in school! KK>Well that is still how every good teacher does it! I am now teaching a KK>2nd grader who by this time next year we be more math savvy than this KK>intellectually gifted high school student. This 2nd grader can already KK>estimate whether or not an answer makes sense. The high school student KK>still can't do this. If one day his fingers or calculator tell him that KK>7 X 6 is 90, that is the answer he will put down. Sounds about right to me. :) KK>VI>Of course I had enough credits to graduate. I just didn't have any KK>VI>credits in math or science for that matter. They were not required at KK>VI>this point because there was no core curiculum at the CUNY schools. KK>VI>But if the core curiculum had been in place I would have a very hard KK>VI>time passing a college level math class. KK>VI>BTW, I didn't take any science classes in college because I wanted to KK>VI>have a very high average to improve my chances of getting into law KK>VI>school. KK>In my days, and yours as well, there were a certain number of math, KK>science, history and English credits that were needed before you KK>received your HS diploma. Once in college if you had the required amount KK>of credits in a spcific area you really had to take perhaps one more KK>general course in that specific area. The only time you had to take math KK>or science credits was if your selected major required it. KK>It is still that way. I can't even remember what was required any more for my high school diploma. I remember that they eliminated the academic diploma the year before I graduated. I remember having to take a shop course because of the change in the graduation requirements. But that's all I can remember. Date: Monday, June 8, 1998 8:30am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746669 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746662, Reply to #746647, Reply to #746643, R*) (1 reply) V >And meanwhile, so much money is being wasted. Did you catch the V >article in yesterday's Daily News about how much money the President o V >the Borough of Manhattan spends on entertainment? It was scandalous! Uh oh... you pushed my button. The list of wasted money is long and scandalous. I'm not talking pork, or questionable expenditures, or $300 toilet seats, I'm talking small stuff that no one complains about but shows the true attitdues of the people who spend our money. Until last year, Congress spent over $100,000/year on ice deliveries to memebers. During the government shutdown, when people were having trouble getting paychecks, the congressional gymnasium was opened by order of Newt. When Clinton whizzes through New York for fund raisers, it is usually accompanied by a token "business" trip to make the expenses legit. These trips cost New York City alone over $1,000,000. Then there is the issue of Air Force One and the entourage. Today alone, AF1 will be in use for two hours, and Marine AF1 (the helipcopter) will be in use for about four hours. That's roughly $30,000 in operating expenses for equipment alone. Congressmen and Senators have SUBSIDIZED MEALS in the House/Senate dining rooms. I'm told the Senate dining room is something to behold. Based on the operating budget submitted last year, it costs over $1,000,000 per year to support each Congresscritter ABOVE AND BEYOND THEIR SALARY. The budget item was loose enough so that I couldn't figure out what it DIDN'T include, but I'll put money on it not including postal franking priveledges. Excuse me.... I need to take a cold shower. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Monday, June 8, 1998 8:30am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746670 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746664, Reply to #746649, Reply to #746645, R*) (1 reply) V >KK>But nothing said you had to take calculus unless your major require V > V >That's for sure! And believe me I steered very clear of it! :) I think some kind of math and science courses are required, just as a variety of liberal arts courses are required for engineering students, but I agree, calculus is a waste for 90% of the engineers and 99% of the liberal arts students. V >KK>Any remediation of non college material should be done on a high sc V >KK>level for FREE! V > V >And will probably have to be continued in college as well. And that's a crime. Would you adovcate that the World Series be extended to 9 games so that there could be two games of batting clinic? A college is supposed to have a certain level of prestige associated with it. Remdial course... fine.... but get them out of the colleges! V >I can't even remember what was required any more for my high school V >diploma. I remember that they eliminated the academic diploma the yea V >before I graduated. I remember having to take a shop course because o V >the change in the graduation requirements. But that's all I can V >remember. I think a math, a science, a language plus some history/geography/civics type course (nowadays called Global Studies) and some English classes are generally the core subjects. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Monday, June 8, 1998 2:04pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 746673 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746662, Reply to #746647, Reply to #746643, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>I agree with you too :-) VI>KK>The root of the problems as you have identified it is at the elementary, VI>KK>and junior high, and high school levels. That is where the remediation VI>KK>should take place. It is silly to say it is not taking place there so VI>KK>the colleges should do it. The answer is that instead of the colleges VI>KK>doing it, it should be done at the lower grades. A student who reads, VI>KK>writes, and does math at a 6th grade level should not graduate,and VI>KK>should certainly not be led to blieve that he is ready for a college VI>KK>education! VI>In my opinion there will always be a need for remediation on the VI>college level, because there will always be kids who fall behind on VI>certain subjects. VI> Of course, the primary objective should be to make sure kids master VI>what they need to know on an elementary school level before they pass VI>on to junior high...and so. But I don't really see the commitment to VI>spend the money and the resources necessary to go about doing this. Again we are of two different opinions when it comes to college. At this point we do have compulsory education. The cut off point is 21 (as far as I know). Also it only applies to the lower grades. It does not apply to college. As such I don't see it at all as an obligation for any college to provide any remediation. Once the colleges have set a certain level then that is the level each attendee must maintain. If you have difficulties in maintaining that level then it is up to you to do what is necessary, if possible, to get yourself up to that level. It is not the responsibility of the college. VI>And meanwhile, so much money is being wasted. Did you catch the VI>article in yesterday's Daily News about how much money the President of VI>the Borough of Manhattan spends on entertainment? It was scandalous! Yep. I saw it and agree. Date: Monday, June 8, 1998 2:08pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 746674 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746663, Reply to #746648, Reply to #746644, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>Clara Barton still requires a more or less heavy load of high school VI>KK>subjects. Grady is more work oriented. I have taught students from both VI>KK>schools. VI>When my mother went to high school they had in NYC three different VI>types of high schools. Academic high schools were for students who VI>were going to go on to college. Commercial high schools trained VI>students for office work--for females that meant secretarial jobs. VI>General high schools were meant for students who going on to blue VI>collar, factory type jobs. Generally the brightest kids went to VI>academic high schools, commercial high schools were for average kids VI>and general high schools were for the least intelligent students. VI>Would Grady be similiar to the old type General high school? Sounds similar. Students are still required to take most subject but only attend part of the day and work the other part of the day. There are various similar programs in existance in other schools throughout the city as well. HOWEVER the requirements for obtaining a HS diploma do not change. Now they are not sure what will happen. At this point they are expecting ALL students to have to take and pass a number of regent's. They are in for a surprise :-) Date: Monday, June 8, 1998 2:18pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 746675 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746664, Reply to #746649, Reply to #746645, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>Remedial classes that deal with 7th or 8th grade material belong in high VI>KK>school for free, not in college. VI>Remedial classes belong whereever there are students who need them. :) VI> As I pointed out in my previous message we do not share the same opinion regarding college. People CAN fail. Not all people pass. I do not see college any different than law school or med school. Do law schools and [Ad schools provide remediation? (I hope not :-) I am sure there are courses the law student and med student can take to help them for exams but are these courses given by the college? Are they given for exams only or also for general classes? VI>KK>VI>When I graudated Queens College there was no core curiculum. I am VI>KK>VI>trying to remember from time to Gerri whether calculus was one of the VI>KK>VI>core classes. But I can't recall. VI>KK>I don't recall calculus ever being a required class. VI>I'm pretty sure there was a college level math. But I am not 100%. VI>Why don't you ask your daughter? She could resolve the debate. :) She took one math course which was nothing really new to her. She is not majoring in any area that will require more math courses. She had to take a computer class which required knowledge of HS math. And she is now taking a statistics course which is required for her major. [B VI>KK>VI>this point because there was no core curiculum at the CUNY schools. VI>KK>VI>But if the core curiculum had been in place I would have a very hard VI>KK>VI>time passing a college level math class. VI>KK>VI>BTW, I didn't take any science classes in college because I wanted to >KK>VI>have a very high average to improve my chances of getting into law Date: Tuesday, June 9, 1998 6:31am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746682 To: Editor Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746669, Reply to #746662, Reply to #746647, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >And meanwhile, so much money is being wasted. Did you catch the ED>V >article in yesterday's Daily News about how much money the President o ED>V >the Borough of Manhattan spends on entertainment? It was scandalous! ED>Uh oh... you pushed my button. The list of wasted money is long and ED>scandalous. I'm not talking pork, or questionable expenditures, or $300 ED>toilet seats, I'm talking small stuff that no one complains about but shows ED>the true attitdues of the people who spend our money. This guy from BMCC wasn't spending money on small stuff. He was having $300 fancy smancy dinners at "swank" restaurants on the college's quarter. Boy did that burn me! ED>Until last year, Congress spent over $100,000/year on ice deliveries to ED>memebers. And how much on liquor to go on the ice? :) ED>During the government shutdown, when people were having trouble getting ED>paychecks, the congressional gymnasium was opened by order of Newt. Well if you looked at the members of congress they need a gym awfully bad! :) ED>When Clinton whizzes through New York for fund raisers, it is usually ED>accompanied by a token "business" trip to make the expenses legit. These ED>trips cost New York City alone over $1,000,000. Then there is the issue of ED>Air Force One and the entourage. Today alone, AF1 will be in use for two ED>hours, and Marine AF1 (the helipcopter) will be in use for about four ED>hours. That's roughly $30,000 in operating expenses for equipment alone. Well this stuff seems hard to avoid. You have to give sufficient protection to the President of the United States after all! ED>Congressmen and Senators have SUBSIDIZED MEALS in the House/Senate dining ED>rooms. I'm told the Senate dining room is something to behold. I bet! But hey, I have had lunch in the federal courthouse in both Brooklyn and Manhattan because the price is cheap. Likewise, I go for lunch all the time at the Port Authority lunchroom in the World Trade Center--so I am hardly innocent. ED>Based on the operating budget submitted last year, it costs over $1,000,000 ED>per year to support each Congresscritter ABOVE AND BEYOND THEIR SALARY. The ED>budget item was loose enough so that I couldn't figure out what it DIDN'T ED>include, but I'll put money on it not including postal franking ED>priveledges. Oh do I love those little mailings I get from my local politicans...NOT! They go immediately into the trash! ED>Excuse me.... I need to take a cold shower. Sounds like it! :) Date: Tuesday, June 9, 1998 6:41am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746683 To: Editor Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746670, Reply to #746664, Reply to #746649, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >KK>But nothing said you had to take calculus unless your major require ED>V > ED>V >That's for sure! And believe me I steered very clear of it! :) ED>I think some kind of math and science courses are required, just as a ED>variety of liberal arts courses are required for engineering students, but ED>I agree, calculus is a waste for 90% of the engineers and 99% of the ED>liberal arts students. Science classes are most definitely required now. I recall because this very clearly because I had major league battles with Gerri over my refusual to "help" her do her science homework. ED>V >KK>Any remediation of non college material should be done on a high sc ED>V >KK>level for FREE! ED>V > ED>V >And will probably have to be continued in college as well. ED>And that's a crime. Would you adovcate that the World Series be extended to ED>9 games so that there could be two games of batting clinic? A college is ED>supposed to have a certain level of prestige associated with it. Remdial ED>course... fine.... but get them out of the colleges! They'll extend the World Series to 9 games to sell more tickets! :) When it comes to college, prestige isn't the point. Teaching kids is the point. ED>V >I can't even remember what was required any more for my high school ED>V >diploma. I remember that they eliminated the academic diploma the yea ED>V >before I graduated. I remember having to take a shop course because o ED>V >the change in the graduation requirements. But that's all I can ED>V >remember. ED>I think a math, a science, a language plus some history/geography/civics ED>type course (nowadays called Global Studies) and some English classes are ED>generally the core subjects. There was a major league shift that occurred in the requirements for a high school diploma the year I graduated. That's why I remember the shop class. It was NOT required to graduate until the year I graduated. I took typing as my "shop" class and then literally had to BEG my typing teacher to pass me. Believe it or not, I had a very hard time learning to touch type. (I didn't learn to touch type until I went to college. After typing a number of term papers I just learned how to type without trying.) Date: Tuesday, June 9, 1998 6:46am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746684 To: Kkid Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746673, Reply to #746662, Reply to #746647, R*) KK>VI>KK>I agree with you too :-) KK>VI>KK>The root of the problems as you have identified it is at the elementar KK>VI>KK>and junior high, and high school levels. That is where the remediation KK>VI>KK>should take place. It is silly to say it is not taking place there so KK>VI>KK>the colleges should do it. The answer is that instead of the colleges KK>VI>KK>doing it, it should be done at the lower grades. A student who reads, KK>VI>KK>writes, and does math at a 6th grade level should not graduate,and KK>VI>KK>should certainly not be led to blieve that he is ready for a college KK>VI>KK>education! KK>VI>In my opinion there will always be a need for remediation on the KK>VI>college level, because there will always be kids who fall behind on KK>VI>certain subjects. KK>VI> Of course, the primary objective should be to make sure kids master KK>VI>what they need to know on an elementary school level before they pass KK>VI>on to junior high...and so. But I don't really see the commitment to KK>VI>spend the money and the resources necessary to go about doing this. KK>Again we are of two different opinions when it comes to college. At this KK>point we do have compulsory education. The cut off point is 21 (as far KK>as I know). Also it only applies to the lower grades. It does not apply KK>to college. As such I don't see it at all as an obligation for any KK>college to provide any remediation. That to me is the primary reason to provide remedial education at the college level. Because there is no compulsory education at the college level at least you are dealing with kids who are motivated to learn, who want to make their lives better. On the lower levels, you are dealing with a lot of bored, resentful kids who have no motivation or desire to learn. KK> Once the colleges have set a certain KK>level then that is the level each attendee must maintain. If you have KK>difficulties in maintaining that level then it is up to you to do what KK>is necessary, if possible, to get yourself up to that level. It is not KK>the responsibility of the college. That's where you and I totally disagree. I believe it is the responsibility of the university to bring students up to performing on a college level. If the university doesn't do so, it has failed. This is especially true of a public college, which is supposed to be performing a public, not a private function. KK>VI>And meanwhile, so much money is being wasted. Did you catch the KK>VI>article in yesterday's Daily News about how much money the President of KK>VI>the Borough of Manhattan spends on entertainment? It was scandalous! KK>Yep. I saw it and agree. That article totally burned me up! :( Date: Tuesday, June 9, 1998 6:48am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746685 To: Kkid Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746674, Reply to #746663, Reply to #746648, R*) KK>VI>KK>Clara Barton still requires a more or less heavy load of high school KK>VI>KK>subjects. Grady is more work oriented. I have taught students from bot KK>VI>KK>schools. KK>VI>When my mother went to high school they had in NYC three different KK>VI>types of high schools. Academic high schools were for students who KK>VI>were going to go on to college. Commercial high schools trained KK>VI>students for office work--for females that meant secretarial jobs. KK>VI>General high schools were meant for students who going on to blue KK>VI>collar, factory type jobs. Generally the brightest kids went to KK>VI>academic high schools, commercial high schools were for average kids KK>VI>and general high schools were for the least intelligent students. KK>VI>Would Grady be similiar to the old type General high school? KK>Sounds similar. Students are still required to take most subject but KK>only attend part of the day and work the other part of the day. There KK>are various similar programs in existance in other schools throughout KK>the city as well. HOWEVER the requirements for obtaining a HS diploma do KK>not change. Now they are not sure what will happen. At this point they KK>are expecting ALL students to have to take and pass a number of KK>regent's. KK>They are in for a surprise :-) That I can't imagine happening. The Regents exams are not easy, that I remember clearly. Date: Tuesday, June 9, 1998 6:54am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746686 To: Kkid Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746675, Reply to #746664, Reply to #746649, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>KK>Remedial classes that deal with 7th or 8th grade material belong in hi KK>VI>KK>school for free, not in college. KK>VI>Remedial classes belong whereever there are students who need them. :) KK>VI> KK>As I pointed out in my previous message we do not share the same opinion KK>regarding college. People CAN fail. Not all people pass. I do not see KK>college any different than law school or med school. Do law schools and KK>[Ad schools provide remediation? (I hope not :-) KK>I am sure there are courses the law student and med student can take to KK>help them for exams but are these courses given by the college? Are they KK>given for exams only or also for general classes? Professional schools are in a different category than undergrad liberal arts colleges. Professional schools train a student for a specifric career. A med student will eventually become a doctor if he or she passes medical school. So of course the medical student has to perform on a certain level. On a undergrad level, of course not every student is going to pass. But when you are dealing with a PUBLIC undergrad school like CUNY I believe the mission of the school should be to make sure as many students as possible pass. This does not mean lowering the standards to pass. Indeed, it means just the opposite--to raise your students up to a very high standard. KK>VI>KK>VI>When I graudated Queens College there was no core curiculum. I am KK>VI>KK>VI>trying to remember from time to Gerri whether calculus was one of t KK>VI>KK>VI>core classes. But I can't recall. KK>VI>KK>I don't recall calculus ever being a required class. KK>VI>I'm pretty sure there was a college level math. But I am not 100%. KK>VI>Why don't you ask your daughter? She could resolve the debate. :) KK>She took one math course which was nothing really new to her. She is not KK>majoring in any area that will require more math courses. She had to KK>take a computer class which required knowledge of HS math. And she is KK>now taking a statistics course which is required for her major. What's her major? Date: Tuesday, June 9, 1998 12:10pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746692 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746682, Reply to #746669, Reply to #746662, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>When Clinton whizzes through New York for fund raisers, it is usual V >ED>accompanied by a token "business" trip to make the expenses legit. V >ED>trips cost New York City alone over $1,000,000. Then there is the i V >ED>Air Force One and the entourage. Today alone, AF1 will be in use fo V >ED>hours, and Marine AF1 (the helipcopter) will be in use for about fo V >ED>hours. That's roughly $30,000 in operating expenses for equipment a V > V >Well this stuff seems hard to avoid. You have to give sufficient V >protection to the President of the United States after all! You miss my point. I would never suggest that the President fly on anything other than Air Force One, and be protected up the wazoo, etc. Its just that he does this time after time for pure political fund raising events. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Tuesday, June 9, 1998 12:10pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746693 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746683, Reply to #746670, Reply to #746664, R*) (1 reply) V >I took typing as my "shop" class and then literally had to BEG my V >typing teacher to pass me. Believe it or not, I had a very hard time V >learning to touch type. (I didn't learn to touch type until I went to V >college. After typing a number of term papers I just learned how to V >type without trying.) When I list the five most useful courses I have taken in my life, typing (in 7th grade) is up there with Russian History II and Engineering Dynamics 1 and 2. Tenth grade geometry rounds it out. Typing is an underrated skill. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Wednesday, June 10, 1998 6:10am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746695 To: Editor Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746692, Reply to #746682, Reply to #746669, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >ED>When Clinton whizzes through New York for fund raisers, it is usual ED>V >ED>accompanied by a token "business" trip to make the expenses legit. ED>V >ED>trips cost New York City alone over $1,000,000. Then there is the i ED>V >ED>Air Force One and the entourage. Today alone, AF1 will be in use fo ED>V >ED>hours, and Marine AF1 (the helipcopter) will be in use for about fo ED>V >ED>hours. That's roughly $30,000 in operating expenses for equipment a ED>V > ED>V >Well this stuff seems hard to avoid. You have to give sufficient ED>V >protection to the President of the United States after all! ED>You miss my point. I would never suggest that the President fly on anything ED>other than Air Force One, and be protected up the wazoo, etc. Its just that ED>he does this time after time for pure political fund raising events. I understood your point. But I don't see a way to avoid it. Presidents have made pure political fund raising appearances at least since the time of Lincoln. :) Date: Wednesday, June 10, 1998 6:12am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746696 To: Editor Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746693, Reply to #746683, Reply to #746670, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >I took typing as my "shop" class and then literally had to BEG my ED>V >typing teacher to pass me. Believe it or not, I had a very hard time ED>V >learning to touch type. (I didn't learn to touch type until I went to ED>V >college. After typing a number of term papers I just learned how to ED>V >type without trying.) ED>When I list the five most useful courses I have taken in my life, typing ED>(in 7th grade) is up there with Russian History II and Engineering Dynamics ED>1 and 2. Tenth grade geometry rounds it out. ED>Typing is an underrated skill. I don't underrate typing. I use it every day here on AH. And I type a lot of my own stuff at work. :) I am interested in how in the world Russian History II is useful in your life. Date: Wednesday, June 10, 1998 9:06am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746700 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746695, Reply to #746692, Reply to #746682, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>You miss my point. I would never suggest that the President fly on V >ED>other than Air Force One, and be protected up the wazoo, etc. Its j V >ED>he does this time after time for pure political fund raising events V > V > V >I understood your point. But I don't see a way to avoid it. V >Presidents have made pure political fund raising appearances at least V >since the time of Lincoln. :) And women have been discriminated against since Adam.... doesn't make either one right. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Wednesday, June 10, 1998 9:06am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746701 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746696, Reply to #746693, Reply to #746683, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>When I list the five most useful courses I have taken in my life, t V >ED>(in 7th grade) is up there with Russian History II and Engineering V >ED>1 and 2. Tenth grade geometry rounds it out. V > V >ED>Typing is an underrated skill. V > V >I don't underrate typing. I use it every day here on AH. And I type V >lot of my own stuff at work. :) V > V >I am interested in how in the world Russian History II is useful in V >your life. The course covered Russian history from the revolution to the present. (When I took the course the present meant 1966.) Fascinating course. Taught me just how much BS appears in the newspapers. First of all, the prof, a man named L. Jay Oliva (now the Chancellor of NYU) really loved his work. It was one of those classes where the prof literally bounced around the podium as he spoke. Now... as for how it was useful, consider the time, 1966. "Failsafe" had been published a few years earlier and scared the hell out of everyone. In high schools, kids were still practicing "take cover" drills. After taking this course I finally began to get a tiny understanding of the Russian mindset. There were people alive in Russian who remembered the revolution, and worse, who remembered starving children. Children who were starving because after the revolution, US ships blockaded Russian ports. (Nice to know that our foreign policy has always been as sensible as it is today.) I also learned about the mind of Nikita Khrushev. What a character. Literally a peasant who could destroy the world. But mostly, I learned what a load of shit the NY Times puts on its front page each day and how heavy a dose of propaganda we are fed. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Wednesday, June 10, 1998 11:06am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746705 To: Vida Re: Hmmmm (1 reply) The fact that this column was sent to me by brother in law doesn't guarentee its crazy. My brother in law lives on the political back side of the moon, where the ultra right meet the ultra left. Interesting though. ------------------------------- > FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE DATED JUNE 9, 1998 > EDITORS NOTE: Wednesday June 10 is referred to as "today" in 8th paragraph > THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz > If some earn less, must it be a conspiracy? > > Statisticians and economists have explained again and again why women's > wages still appear to lag behind men's -- that these days, such a "gap" is > largely a statistical artifact, reflecting career choices and the number of > consecutive years women tend to work. > > Yet those with political agendas continue to ignore the obvious, and > assert the absurd. > > Only decades ago, it's true, women faced sizable obstacles entering any > profession generally seen as a "man's job." > > My Aunt Frances ran the Middletown office of the Metropolitan Insurance > Company for decades. But instead of giving her the title and the salary, > the company expected that every few years she would train a new, more > highly-paid young man to become her "boss." When she finally gave notice, > they said they couldn't spare her, and offered to triple her pay. She asked > them why they hadn't done that years ago, and never looked back. > > "All our girls start in the typing pool" didn't used to be just a sour > joke. (start ital)That(end ital) was prejudice. > > But that was also 30 years ago. It was not 30 years ago -- it was this > week -- that the Clinton administration announced the "wage gap" between > the sexes has narrowed by about three cents on the dollar since last > spring. The "median weekly wage for women working full time" grew 6.6 > percent in the year ending March 31, from $427 to $455, while "men's far > higher wages grew by just 2.4 percent," from $582 to $596, according to the > Labor Department. > > As a result, women earned "76 cents for every dollar men made in the > first quarter of 1998," compared with 73 cents during the same period of > 1997, Rick McGahey, the Labor Department's assistant secretary for policy, > told The Associated Press on June 8. > > President Clinton is expected to claim some credit for this mild > improvement at a White House event today (June 10), in which he will > commemorate the Equal Pay Act (outlawing wage discrimination) signed by > President Kennedy in 1963. > > Since women still tend to be concentrated in the lowest-paying jobs, > explained Mr. McGahey, last summer's boost in the minimum wage to $5.15 an > hour helped improve their earning power compared with men. > > This is nonsense. Sure, some men and women who used to earn $4.85 now > earn $5.15. But it's also true that when jobs paying less than $5.15 per > hour were outlawed (that's what "minimum wage laws" actually do), some of > those low-skilled workers were laid off and replaced with robot > potato-fryers. If "women still tend to be concentrated" in such jobs, how > many of those folks were women? And I bet they sure appreciate the "help," > too. > > "Pay discrimination still exists," Mr. McGahey says. > > If so, I wonder who at the Labor Department have been failing to enforce > the Equal Pay Act of 1963, and why they have not been fired and replaced? > > In fact, what is being described is not "discrimination" -- a director of > human resources hiring a man and woman on the same day to work the same > job, and starting the woman at three-quarters the pay -- but rather a > difference in net earnings over the course of a career, which is a very > different thing. > > "As women get more experience in the work force and better education, we > think the gap will continue to close," says Mr. McGahey. > > Why? Why would mere "experience and education" cause evil misogynists to > suddenly become more "fair"? > > Truth is, "full time," in Labor Department parlance, can refer to workers > laboring as little as 20 hours per week. While men are more likely to work > overtime, women with children are far more likely to work these half-time > jobs, thus depressing "women's median weekly wages." Is the boss to blame > for giving them this option? > > Women are also more likely to interrupt their careers for several years > for child-rearing. Even if they do return to work, for the rest of their > lives they will have less experience and fewer cumulative raises under > their belts. Is this "discrimination"? > > And finally there's the question of career choice. Men are far more > likely to take college classes in engineering, while classes in art > appreciation and medieval French culture tend to be dominated by women. > > Would more men study medieval French furniture if they thought they could > land a $40,000 job in that field, and thus make themselves a more > attractive prospect for marriage? Who knows? What we do know is that the > average woman -- unlike the average man -- is far less likely to find > herself considered an unattractive candidate for marriage, just because she > exercised an academic option which everyone knew would leave her less > likely to ever earn high pay. > > If there's any "discrimination" there, it's the continued assumption -- > even in this era of supposed "sexual equality" -- that a man (unlike a > woman) had darned well better knuckle down and find something that will > support his family, even if that high-pressure job shortens his life with > ulcers or high blood pressure ... and who cares if he'd rather be out > antique-shopping? > > Vin Suprynowicz is the assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas > Review-Journal. Readers may contact him via e-mail at vin@lvrj.com. The web > site for the Suprynowicz column is at http://www.nguworld.com/vindex/. The > column is syndicated in the United States and Canada via Mountain Media > Syndications, P.O. Box 4422, Las Vegas Nev. 89127. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Wednesday, June 10, 1998 7:18pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746706 To: ** ALL ** Re: Women's body image (1 reply) From the Abigail's L feminist e mail list. Subject: More women unhappy with their body images Published Wednesday, June 10, 1998, in the San Jose Mercury News More women unhappy with their body images An analysis of 222 studies from the last 50 years of how men and women view their bodies has found a dramatic increase in the number of women who have a poor body image, while men's self-images have remained relatively stable, according to an article published in the May issue of the journal Psychological Science. The study, by Alan Feingold of the department of psychiatry at Yale University and Ronald Mazzella of Flushing, N.Y., involved a meta-analysis of research on physical attractiveness, eating disorders and self-esteem. Feingold and Mazzella divided the research into four categories: studies published before 1970, and those published in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s, ending in 1996. Feingold and Mazzella found that, overall, men rated themselves as more physically attractive than did women, who were overrepresented among low scorers and underrepresented among high scorers of attractiveness. ``The strongest trend involved increasing numbers of women among individuals who were most dissatisfied with their bodies,'' they noted. In addition, women were more likely to be highly dissatisfied with their appearance regardless of their age. In the past decade, the researchers noted, ``the meta-analysis found that males are more satisfied with their bodies than females, and to a much-lesser degree, consider themselves to be better looking than do females. Moreover, the gender difference in self-rated attractiveness cannot be due to differences in actual physical attractiveness because judges rated women as being better looking than men.'' The authors conclude that the increase in the prevalence of eating disorders, which overwhelmingly affect women, may be linked to the growing number of women who have a poor body image. ****************************************************************** Date: Thursday, June 11, 1998 7:05am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746710 To: ** ALL ** Re: Feathered and tarred (1 reply) Subject: Feathered and Tarred (fwd) New York Times June 10, 1998 LIBERTIES / MAUREEN DOWD [W] ASHINGTON -- Monica Lewinsky's glamour shots in Vanity Fair are pornography. Not because she poses like a fan dancer with bare shoulders, fuchsia feathers, a huge diamond rock and scarlet lipstick and nail polish. Not because she rolls around in grass, as in "Leaves of," aping Marilyn in a snug gingham shirt and jeans. No, these glossies of Monica in Malibu are pornography because of what they tell us about our dizzy society, that in pursuit of a moment of fame, people take leave of their senses. There's something sickening about a young woman who vamps with an American flag, mocking her role as the silent center of a case that could bring down a President. Getting your own photo shoot in Vanity Fair has become the premier achievement in our celebrity-mad culture. (Ms. Lewinsky's first choice for a photographer was Annie Leibovitz, but she had to settle for another iconographer of glitz, Herb Ritts.) She was so eager to get her scandal trophy that she didn't stop to consider that these photographs shriek "I'm not a serious person" and brag "I was the President's sex kitten." The weird thing about the shot of Monica clutching the feathers is that it's not sultry. It's saddening. Stubby and white, her hand looks disturbingly childlike. Her short nails are painted red, like a little girl who has put on her mother's polish. Shades of JonBenet Ramsey. And when you see it, you wonder all over again what the President of the United States could have been thinking when, focusing only on himself, he decided to overload all the circuits in the brain of a 21-year-old White House intern who idolized him and is still, according to Newsweek, infatuated. We know William Ginsburg was dumb and dumber, a starstruck L.A. malpractice lawyer suffering from Judge Ito disease, TV poisoning. But his most bonehead move was signing the Vanity Fair release, and happily hanging out on the Malibu beach -- near where "Baywatch" is filmed -- as the alleged victim in his care was tarted up by Mr. Ritts. When they brought out the Belle Watling outfits, couldn't somebody have asked for a nice navy blue Armani pantsuit? More Jamie Tarses, less Gypsy Rose Lee? The layout followed months of Mr. Ginsburg's painting the 24-year-old former intern as a vulnerable, tortured young "girl," caught in a vendetta between two powerful men. He told reporters she needed to do it to assuage her ego and her "libido." Amazingly, Monica's father, Bernard, also attended some of the beach sessions where they troweled makeup onto his daughter's pretty face. Sources in the Lewinsky camp say Dr. Lewinsky "freaked out" about only one thing -- Monica's cavorting with the flag. But then, what else would one expect of a man who went on Barbara Walters and defended the President who turned his daughter into a plaything? The caption that goes with a photograph of Monica barefoot in a backless black chiffon cocktail dress feeds her warped fantasy that she and Bill Clinton, pudgy teen-agers, were destined for a transforming romance that turned her into "the prom queen" and him into "the beefy quarterback." It appears that there's one thing Monica has immunity from: brains. Her new lawyers and public relations advisers have been frantically spinning, trying to counteract the effects of the exhibitionist photos and graft on a new, more sober persona. No more Material Girl. No more Beverly Hills mallrat. The new Monica is deep. Her team told U.S. News & World Report that she loves "antique bookstores," is a "fanatic" for Shakespeare, and treated herself to a complete set of Dickens. In a real stunner, the news magazine reports, "Sources close to Monica reveal that she has even taken up knitting." There was also a new working-girl risumi for Marcia Lewis, the glam mom who coached her daughter in the ways of the world. We learn from U.S. News that Monica's divorced parents were the children of "struggling immigrants" and that the young couple once lived in a "gritty" section of Los Angeles. Glamour begone: Early in her marriage, it turns out, Ms. Lewis worked at the Los Angeles County sewer department. But now that Monica's in feathers and diamonds, it is clear: You can take the girl out of Beverly Hills, but you can't take Beverly Hills out of the girl. ************************************************************************ Date: Thursday, June 11, 1998 8:27am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746711 To: Editor Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746700, Reply to #746695, Reply to #746692, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >ED>You miss my point. I would never suggest that the President fly on ED>V >ED>other than Air Force One, and be protected up the wazoo, etc. Its j ED>V >ED>he does this time after time for pure political fund raising events ED>V > ED>V > ED>V >I understood your point. But I don't see a way to avoid it. ED>V >Presidents have made pure political fund raising appearances at least ED>V >since the time of Lincoln. :) ED>And women have been discriminated against since Adam.... doesn't make ED>either one right. That's a pretty offensive comment to me. I don't see how the two situtations are at all equivalent. Date: Thursday, June 11, 1998 8:30am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746712 To: Editor Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746701, Reply to #746696, Reply to #746693, R*) ED>V >ED>When I list the five most useful courses I have taken in my life, t ED>V >ED>(in 7th grade) is up there with Russian History II and Engineering ED>V >ED>1 and 2. Tenth grade geometry rounds it out. ED>V > ED>V >ED>Typing is an underrated skill. ED>V > ED>V >I don't underrate typing. I use it every day here on AH. And I type ED>V >lot of my own stuff at work. :) ED>V > ED>V >I am interested in how in the world Russian History II is useful in ED>V >your life. ED>The course covered Russian history from the revolution to the present. ED>(When I took the course the present meant 1966.) Fascinating course. Taught ED>me just how much BS appears in the newspapers. ED>First of all, the prof, a man named L. Jay Oliva (now the Chancellor of ED>NYU) really loved his work. It was one of those classes where the prof ED>literally bounced around the podium as he spoke. ED>Now... as for how it was useful, consider the time, 1966. "Failsafe" had ED>been published a few years earlier and scared the hell out of everyone. In ED>high schools, kids were still practicing "take cover" drills. After taking ED>this course I finally began to get a tiny understanding of the Russian ED>mindset. There were people alive in Russian who remembered the revolution, ED>and worse, who remembered starving children. Children who were starving ED>because after the revolution, US ships blockaded Russian ports. (Nice to ED>know that our foreign policy has always been as sensible as it is today.) I ED>also learned about the mind of Nikita Khrushev. What a character. Literally ED>a peasant who could destroy the world. ED>But mostly, I learned what a load of shit the NY Times puts on its front ED>page each day and how heavy a dose of propaganda we are fed. It does sound like an interesting course. And even more fascinating course would be one that goes up to the present time, with the overthrough of the old Communist regime included in the course. And most definitely it is useful to learn to be skeptical of the information we receive via the mass media! Date: Thursday, June 11, 1998 8:54am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746714 To: Editor Re: Hmmmm (Reply to #746705) (1 reply) ED>The fact that this column was sent to me by brother in law doesn't ED>guarentee its crazy. My brother in law lives on the political back side of ED>the moon, where the ultra right meet the ultra left. Interesting though. I obviously have problems with this article, so I will zoom in that portion of the article that gives me the most agita. ED>------------------------------- ED>> FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA ED>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE DATED JUNE 9, 1998 ED>> EDITORS NOTE: Wednesday June 10 is referred to as "today" in 8th ED>paragraph ED>> THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz ED>> If some earn less, must it be a conspiracy? Not a consipiracy. It is the predicatable result of sexism in this culture. ED>> Since women still tend to be concentrated in the lowest-paying jobs, ED>> explained Mr. McGahey, last summer's boost in the minimum wage to $5.15 ED>an ED>> hour helped improve their earning power compared with men. ED>> ED>> This is nonsense. Sure, some men and women who used to earn $4.85 now ED>> earn $5.15. But it's also true that when jobs paying less than $5.15 per ED>> hour were outlawed (that's what "minimum wage laws" actually do), some of ED>> those low-skilled workers were laid off and replaced with robot ED>> potato-fryers. If "women still tend to be concentrated" in such jobs, how ED>> many of those folks were women? And I bet they sure appreciate the ED>"help," ED>> too. Last time I walked into Wendy's (which was yesterday) I didn't see any robot potato-fryers. Nor have I ever seen any robots working the counters at Subway or Burger King, which are all fast food joints where I grab lunch on a fairly regular basis. ED>> "Pay discrimination still exists," Mr. McGahey says. ED>> ED>> If so, I wonder who at the Labor Department have been failing to ED>enforce ED>> the Equal Pay Act of 1963, and why they have not been fired and replaced? It's hasn't been enforced because the discrimination is subtle and deeply embeded in society. Many of the factors that the author points to come in to play, but these factors are reflective of a deeper problem of the legacy of 5,000 years of patriachy. ED>> ED>> In fact, what is being described is not "discrimination" -- a director ED>of ED>> human resources hiring a man and woman on the same day to work the same ED>> job, and starting the woman at three-quarters the pay -- but rather a ED>> difference in net earnings over the course of a career, which is a very ED>> different thing. ED>> Women start earning less at the beginning of their career and end up earning less at the end of their carreer. It's part and parcel of the same problem. ED>> ED>> Women are also more likely to interrupt their careers for several years ED>> for child-rearing. Even if they do return to work, for the rest of their ED>> lives they will have less experience and fewer cumulative raises under ED>> their belts. Is this "discrimination"? Sure as hell is. Part of the reason why women have to interrupt their careers for several years in order to raise children is that we, as a society, have not provided for decent day care facilities. ED>> And finally there's the question of career choice. Men are far more ED>> likely to take college classes in engineering, while classes in art ED>> appreciation and medieval French culture tend to be dominated by women. ED>> ED>> Would more men study medieval French furniture if they thought they ED>could ED>> land a $40,000 job in that field, and thus make themselves a more ED>> attractive prospect for marriage? Who knows? What we do know is that the ED>> average woman -- unlike the average man -- is far less likely to find ED>> herself considered an unattractive candidate for marriage, just because ED>she ED>> exercised an academic option which everyone knew would leave her less ED>> likely to ever earn high pay. ED>> Now here is the real hot point, as far as I am concerned. How much "free choice" do women actually have in choosing their careers? Is the fact that there are so few women engineers a matter of nature or is the result of societal forces and conditioning? Why is that women consider themselves to be a less attractive candidate for marriage if she enters into a "masculine" profession? Why is that women consider themselves to be a less attractive candidate if she earns more pay than her prospective husband? Are these preceptions on the part of women accurate? (I submit: yes!) If so, why are men less likely to marry women who enter a "masculine" profession? Why are men less likely to marry women who earn more money than themselves? Date: Thursday, June 11, 1998 11:42am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746723 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746711, Reply to #746700, Reply to #746695, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>V >ED>You miss my point. I would never suggest that the President f V >ED>V >ED>other than Air Force One, and be protected up the wazoo, etc. V >ED>V >ED>he does this time after time for pure political fund raising V >ED>V > V >ED>V > V >ED>V >I understood your point. But I don't see a way to avoid it. V >ED>V >Presidents have made pure political fund raising appearances at V >ED>V >since the time of Lincoln. :) V > V >ED>And women have been discriminated against since Adam.... doesn't ma V >ED>either one right. V > V >That's a pretty offensive comment to me. I don't see how the two V >situtations are at all equivalent. You are saying that its alright for the President to blow roughly millions, probably upwards of of $30,000,000 per year, simply because its been going on for a long time. That's hardly justification. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Thursday, June 11, 1998 11:43am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746724 To: Vida Re: Hmmmm (Reply to #746714, Reply to #746705) (1 reply) V >ED>> Women are also more likely to interrupt their careers for sever V >ED>> for child-rearing. Even if they do return to work, for the rest o V >ED>> lives they will have less experience and fewer cumulative raises V >ED>> their belts. Is this "discrimination"? V > V >Sure as hell is. Part of the reason why women have to interrupt their V >careers for several years in order to raise children is that we, as a V >society, have not provided for decent day care facilities. This is the one place we disagree. Every action you take from the moment you are born is a compromise. I'm not so hot on mass produced child care in any form. I think many (certainly not all) women make this compromise willingly (at the beginning anyway). I wish I'd had that option, but it didn't play out that way. V >Now here is the real hot point, as far as I am concerned. How much V >"free choice" do women actually have in choosing their careers? Is th V >fact that there are so few women engineers a matter of nature or is th V >result of societal forces and conditioning? Here you are right, and frankly, women's worst enemies are themselves. If your preference is engineering, and your man can't handle it, go find another man. That will fix up the problem soon enough. V > Why is that women consider themselves to be a less attractive V >candidate for marriage if she enters into a "masculine" profession? V >Why is that women consider themselves to be a less attractive candidat V >if she earns more pay than her prospective husband? Are these V >preceptions on the part of women accurate? (I submit: yes!) If so, V >why are men less likely to marry women who enter a "masculine" V >profession? Why are men less likely to marry women who earn more mone V >than themselves? Beats the hell outta me why. Many women still go out in the world looking for their "MRS" degree. Boggles my mind. They wind up married, pregnant and trapped, and like any trapped animal go crazy. I gave up running my life to please other people a long time ago. Lots of men want dumb women. Lots of women see that as a way to get into a relationship. God bless em. Let em try to be dumb and happy together. Just keep them out of my life. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Thursday, June 11, 1998 11:43am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746725 To: Vida Re: Feathered and tarred (Reply to #746710) (1 reply) V > Subject: Feathered and Tarred (fwd) V > V >New York Times V > June 10, 1998 V > LIBERTIES / MAUREEN DOWD V > [W] ASHINGTON -- Monica Lewinsky's glamour I didn't exactly read this, I heard it. Imus read it on the air. A few months back I quoted Maureen Dowd on the Lewinsky matter, and you said you weren't sure if she was a feminist by your definition. Any comments now? --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Thursday, June 11, 1998 12:06pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 746727 To: Vida Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746706) (1 reply) VI>From the Abigail's L feminist e mail list. VI> Subject: More women unhappy with their body images VI>Published Wednesday, June 10, 1998, in the San Jose VI>Mercury News VI>More women unhappy with their body images VI>An analysis of 222 studies from the last 50 years of VI>how men and women view VI>their bodies has found a dramatic increase in the VI>number of women who have a VI>poor body image, while men's self-images have remained VI>relatively stable, VI>according to an article published in the May issue of VI>the journal VI>Psychological Science. VI>The study, by Alan Feingold of the department of VI>psychiatry at Yale University VI>and Ronald Mazzella of Flushing, N.Y., involved a VI>meta-analysis of research on VI>physical attractiveness, eating disorders and VI>self-esteem. Feingold and VI>Mazzella divided the research into four categories: VI>studies published before VI>1970, and those published in the 1970s, 1980s and VI>1990s, ending in 1996. VI>Feingold and Mazzella found that, overall, men rated VI>themselves as more VI>physically attractive than did women, who were VI>overrepresented among low VI>scorers and underrepresented among high scorers of VI>attractiveness. VI>``The strongest trend involved increasing numbers of VI>women among individuals VI>who were most dissatisfied with their bodies,'' they VI>noted. In addition, women VI>were more likely to be highly dissatisfied with their VI>appearance regardless of VI>their age. VI>In the past decade, the researchers noted, ``the VI>meta-analysis found that VI>males are more satisfied with their bodies than VI>females, and to a much-lesser VI>degree, consider themselves to be better looking than VI>do females. Moreover, VI>the gender difference in self-rated attractiveness VI>cannot be due to VI>differences in actual physical attractiveness because VI>judges rated women as VI>being better looking than men.'' VI>The authors conclude that the increase in the VI>prevalence of eating disorders, VI>which overwhelmingly affect women, may be linked to VI>the growing number of VI>women who have a poor body image. VI>****************************************************************** What do you expect when the media is ALWAYS showing skinny women!!! --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ This tagline is yr brain on Drugs hear it move? Date: Saturday, June 13, 1998 8:24am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746736 To: ** ALL ** Re: McVeigh case I am posting this article because it has implications both for g/l/b rights AND online privacy. NEW YORK TIMES, June 12, 1998 (http://www.nytimes.com) Navy and America Online Settle Case on Gay Privacy By PHILIP SHENON WASHINGTON -- In a victory for gay rights, with implications for the millions of people who use computer online services, both the Navy and America Online have reached settlements with a highly decorated sailor who was investigated by the Navy after he posted a message in which he described himself as "gay." Under the Navy agreement, the 36-year-old sailor, Master Chief Petty Officer Timothy R. McVeigh, will retire from the military with full benefits and with tens of thousands of dollars to pay his legal fees. The Navy had originally sought to discharge McVeigh without any benefits, despite 18 years of unblemished service, after he posted a note on the online service in which he identified himself as "Tim," whose marital status was "gay" and whose e-mail address was "Boysrch." The Navy's settlement with McVeigh, who is no relation to the man convicted of bombing the Federal Building in Oklahoma City, is expected to be announced on Friday. In a separate settlement, America Online, the nation's largest online computer service, with 12 million users, has apologized to McVeigh for violating his privacy and has agreed to pay him damages. The company acknowledged that it had confirmed to a Navy investigator that McVeigh was "Tim." Under the settlement, both sides agreed not to reveal the amount of money paid to McVeigh by America Online. As a result of the case, the company has also announced new policies intended to guarantee the privacy of its users. The policies will require that all of the company's nearly 5,000 customer- service representatives be provided with special "scenario training" to insure that they do not give out private information about users without the user's consent or without a court order. The company has also rewritten its privacy policy to make it far clearer, and has made the new policy available on line to all users. "I'm happy that this case has been resolved on my terms," McVeigh said in a telephone interview today from his home in Honolulu. "I think that all sailors can take comfort from this. I hope it sends a message that the rules and regulations that are in place need to be followed by the military." The Navy said it would withhold comment on the settlement until the terms were made public. (portions ommitted by Vida) The case dates to September, when McVeigh sent an e-mail message to the wife of a fellow crewman aboard the nuclear-powered submarine Chicago about a Christmas toy drive for the crew's children. Navy officials said the woman was disturbed by the return address on his e- mail -- "Boysrch," which apparently referred to "boy search" -- and she consulted the customer profile listed under the return address on America Online. The profile identified the user as Tim of Honolulu, whose hobbies included "collecting pictures of other young studs." The information was passed on to a Navy investigator, who contacted America Online. Without identifying his ties to the Navy, the investigator asked for the full name of Tim. America Online acknowledged this year that a customer-service representative had violated the company's in-house rules and confirmed to the investigator that Tim was Master Chief Petty Officer McVeigh. In interviews, McVeigh, who was described in recent performance evaluations as "an outstanding role model" and "the embodiment of Navy core values," has declined to discuss his sexual orientation, saying it was irrelevant to a case that should be focused instead on the possibility of misconduct by the Navy. A spokeswoman for America Online, Tricia Primrose, said the settlement between the company and McVeigh was reached several months ago but was not announced at the time. "In our review of the situation, we recognized that we had made a mistake as a result of human error, and that we absolutely regretted it," Ms. Primrose said. "We've taken responsibility for this action and satisfactorally resolved it with McVeigh." As a result of the case, she said, America Online will require all of its customer-service representatives to undergo "scenario training, in which we give them examples of the ways in which they could be misled" into turning over confidential information to unauthorized callers. The representatives, she said, will also be required to read and sign a copy of the company's privacy policy every six months, with the understanding that violations of the policy "will be sanctioned all the way up to and including termination." She said the company had also recently rewritten its privacy policy to make it clearer, and had made it available on line. "We wanted to make this easier to read, written in plain English," she said. "It was a big overhaul to make this document understandable to us mere mortals." The policy opens with a statement that America Online is "committed to protecting your personal privacy" and that "we understand that for you to take full advantage of the benefits of this interactive medium, we must do everything we can to insure that your privacy is secure." ************************************************************************ Date: Saturday, June 13, 1998 8:29am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746738 To: Editor Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746723, Reply to #746711, Reply to #746700, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >ED>V >ED>You miss my point. I would never suggest that the President f ED>V >ED>V >ED>other than Air Force One, and be protected up the wazoo, etc. ED>V >ED>V >ED>he does this time after time for pure political fund raising ED>V >ED>V > ED>V >ED>V > ED>V >ED>V >I understood your point. But I don't see a way to avoid it. ED>V >ED>V >Presidents have made pure political fund raising appearances at ED>V >ED>V >since the time of Lincoln. :) ED>V > ED>V >ED>And women have been discriminated against since Adam.... doesn't ma ED>V >ED>either one right. ED>V > ED>V >That's a pretty offensive comment to me. I don't see how the two ED>V >situtations are at all equivalent. ED>You are saying that its alright for the President to blow roughly millions, ED>probably upwards of of $30,000,000 per year, simply because its been going ED>on for a long time. That's hardly justification. What I am saying is that I don't see the President can do his/her job without making political appearances. A person doesn't get to become President of the United States without being a politican. So there will always be political debts to pay off, for every President. Date: Saturday, June 13, 1998 8:36am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746739 To: Editor Re: Hmmmm (Reply to #746724, Reply to #746714, Reply to #746705) ED>V >ED>> Women are also more likely to interrupt their careers for sever ED>V >ED>> for child-rearing. Even if they do return to work, for the rest o ED>V >ED>> lives they will have less experience and fewer cumulative raises ED>V >ED>> their belts. Is this "discrimination"? ED>V > ED>V >Sure as hell is. Part of the reason why women have to interrupt their ED>V >careers for several years in order to raise children is that we, as a ED>V >society, have not provided for decent day care facilities. ED>This is the one place we disagree. Every action you take from the moment ED>you are born is a compromise. I'm not so hot on mass produced child care in ED>any form. I think many (certainly not all) women make this compromise ED>willingly (at the beginning anyway). I wish I'd had that option, but it ED>didn't play out that way. Actually, I am not so hot on mass produced child care facilities either. And I definitely don't buy the concept that every action you take is a compromise. Some are compromises. And some are the result of cultural conditioning. ED>V >Now here is the real hot point, as far as I am concerned. How much ED>V >"free choice" do women actually have in choosing their careers? Is th ED>V >fact that there are so few women engineers a matter of nature or is th ED>V >result of societal forces and conditioning? ED>Here you are right, and frankly, women's worst enemies are themselves. If ED>your preference is engineering, and your man can't handle it, go find ED>another man. That will fix up the problem soon enough. Women's worst enemies are not themselves. Women's worst enemy is the patriachy. ED>V > Why is that women consider themselves to be a less attractive ED>V >candidate for marriage if she enters into a "masculine" profession? ED>V >Why is that women consider themselves to be a less attractive candidat ED>V >if she earns more pay than her prospective husband? Are these ED>V >preceptions on the part of women accurate? (I submit: yes!) If so, ED>V >why are men less likely to marry women who enter a "masculine" ED>V >profession? Why are men less likely to marry women who earn more mone ED>V >than themselves? ED>Beats the hell outta me why. Many women still go out in the world looking ED>for their "MRS" degree. Boggles my mind. They wind up married, ED>pregnant and trapped, and like any trapped animal go crazy. I gave up ED>running my life to please other people a long time ago. Lots of men want ED>dumb women. Lots of women see that as a way to get into a relationship. God ED>bless em. Let em try to be dumb and happy together. Just keep them out of ED>my life. Most men want women who are not threatening to their masculinity. That means dumber than themselves and earning less income than themselves. Women, in turn, are trained from birth to go around living their lives to please other people. Believe it or not I am a terminal people pleaser myself. I fight like hell against this tendency in my personality. But it is very hard to change ingrained personality traits. Date: Saturday, June 13, 1998 8:37am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746740 To: Editor Re: Feathered and tarred (Reply to #746725, Reply to #746710) ED>V > Subject: Feathered and Tarred (fwd) ED>V > ED>V >New York Times ED>V > June 10, 1998 ED>V > LIBERTIES / MAUREEN DOWD ED>V > [W] ASHINGTON -- Monica Lewinsky's glamour ED>I didn't exactly read this, I heard it. Imus read it on the air. A few ED>months back I quoted Maureen Dowd on the Lewinsky matter, and you said you ED>weren't sure if she was a feminist by your definition. Any comments now? I'm still not sure she is a feminist by my definition. I posted that article because of the class analysis she made. Her comment that "You can take the girl out of Beverly Hills, but not Beverly Hills out of the girl." spoke to me. Date: Saturday, June 13, 1998 8:40am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746741 To: Nightbird Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746727, Reply to #746706) (1 reply) NI>VI>From the Abigail's L feminist e mail list. NI>VI> Subject: More women unhappy with their body images NI>VI>****************************************************************** NI>What do you expect when the media is ALWAYS showing skinny women!!! NI>--- Absoultey! Not only that by the media shows impossibly skinny women--6 feet tall but only 120 pounds and some such nonsense! Date: Saturday, June 13, 1998 3:13pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746750 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746738, Reply to #746723, Reply to #746711, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>You are saying that its alright for the President to blow roughly m V >ED>probably upwards of of $30,000,000 per year, simply because its bee V >ED>on for a long time. That's hardly justification. V > V >What I am saying is that I don't see the President can do his/her job V >without making political appearances. A person doesn't get to become V >President of the United States without being a politican. So there V >will always be political debts to pay off, for every President. When the president fakes a "duty" to make a purely political appearance in New York City costs the citizens of New York City $1,000,000 in direct expenditures. It costs more than that in lost income, due to the disruption he causes, but lets call it another $1,000,000. It costs the taxpayers of the United States, a very conservative $200,000. So each political fund raiser costs over $2,200,000. Typically he raises $500,000-$700,000 on each of these trips. he makes 6-10 trips to NYC each year. Well over $20,000,000. And that's a bargain. A trip to Chicago, or Los Angeles is worse. You'll hit $200,000,000 pretty quickly. I don't know about you, but I think that's obscene. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Saturday, June 13, 1998 3:36pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 746752 To: Vida Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746741, Reply to #746727, Reply to #746706) (1 reply) VI>NI>VI>From the Abigail's L feminist e mail list. VI>NI>VI> Subject: More women unhappy with their body images VI>NI>VI>****************************************************************** VI>NI>What do you expect when the media is ALWAYS showing skinny women!!! VI>NI>--- VI>Absoultey! Not only that by the media shows impossibly skinny VI>women--6 feet tall but only 120 pounds and some such nonsense! I personally think the mags. should show women who are my size or larger, NOT these women who are really clothes hangers! --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Yes I'm paranoid. The question is, am I paranoid enough? Date: Saturday, June 13, 1998 6:07pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746759 To: Editor Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746750, Reply to #746738, Reply to #746723, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >ED>You are saying that its alright for the President to blow roughly m ED>V >ED>probably upwards of of $30,000,000 per year, simply because its bee ED>V >ED>on for a long time. That's hardly justification. ED>V > ED>V >What I am saying is that I don't see the President can do his/her job ED>V >without making political appearances. A person doesn't get to become ED>V >President of the United States without being a politican. So there ED>V >will always be political debts to pay off, for every President. ED>When the president fakes a "duty" to make a purely political appearance in ED>New York City costs the citizens of New York City $1,000,000 in direct ED>expenditures. It costs more than that in lost income, due to the ED>disruption he causes, but lets call it another $1,000,000. It costs the ED>taxpayers of the United States, a very conservative $200,000. ED>So each political fund raiser costs over $2,200,000. Typically he raises ED>$500,000-$700,000 on each of these trips. he makes 6-10 trips to NYC each ED>year. Well over $20,000,000. And that's a bargain. A trip to Chicago, or ED>Los Angeles is worse. You'll hit $200,000,000 pretty quickly. ED>I don't know about you, but I think that's obscene. I'm a realist. I see this as part of our system. It's not likely to change without a fundamental change in the system. Date: Saturday, June 13, 1998 6:09pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746760 To: Nightbird Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746752, Reply to #746741, Reply to #746727, R*) (2 replies) NI>VI>NI>VI>From the Abigail's L feminist e mail list. NI>VI>NI>VI> Subject: More women unhappy with their body images NI>VI>NI>VI>****************************************************************** NI>VI>NI>What do you expect when the media is ALWAYS showing skinny women!!! NI>VI>NI>--- NI>VI>Absoultey! Not only that by the media shows impossibly skinny NI>VI>women--6 feet tall but only 120 pounds and some such nonsense! NI>I personally think the mags. should show women who are my size or NI>larger, NOT these women who are really clothes hangers! NI>--- That's because you're a realistic size. And quite cute. :) Although I am sure right now, with little Patrick in your belly you are probably quite large. :) Date: Saturday, June 13, 1998 10:26pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 746766 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746686, Reply to #746675, Reply to #746664, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>college any different than law school or med school. Do law schools and VI>KK>[Ad schools provide remediation? (I hope not :-) VI>KK>I am sure there are courses the law student and med student can take to VI>KK>help them for exams but are these courses given by the college? Are they VI>KK>given for exams only or also for general classes? VI>Professional schools are in a different category than undergrad liberal VI>arts colleges. Professional schools train a student for a specifric VI>career. A med student will eventually become a doctor if he or she VI>passes medical school. So of course the medical student has to perform VI>on a certain level. That is my point of disagreement with you. I feel that once the student is out of high school then the government has really done what is required. Anything else is up to the student. They now have the option for continuing with their education, training for a job, or actually going to work. As such I equate college to the "professional schools" as you call them. VI>KK>VI>I'm pretty sure there was a college level math. But I am not 100%. VI>KK>VI>Why don't you ask your daughter? She could resolve the debate. :) VI>KK>She took one math course which was nothing really new to her. She is not VI>KK>majoring in any area that will require more math courses. She had to VI>KK>take a computer class which required knowledge of HS math. And she is VI>KK>now taking a statistics course which is required for her major. VI>What's her major? I think she plans on majoring in psychology. Date: Saturday, June 13, 1998 10:33pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746768 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746759, Reply to #746750, Reply to #746738, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>So each political fund raiser costs over $2,200,000. Typically he r V >ED>$500,000-$700,000 on each of these trips. he makes 6-10 trips to NY V >ED>year. Well over $20,000,000. And that's a bargain. A trip to Chicag V >ED>Los Angeles is worse. You'll hit $200,000,000 pretty quickly. V > V >ED>I don't know about you, but I think that's obscene. V > V >I'm a realist. I see this as part of our system. It's not likely to V >change without a fundamental change in the system. And so long as you accept this kind of obscenity it will indeed remain part of the system. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Sunday, June 14, 1998 2:33pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 746773 To: Vida Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746760, Reply to #746752, Reply to #746741, R*) (1 reply) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>From the Abigail's L feminist e mail list. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI> Subject: More women unhappy with their body images VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>**************************************************************** VI>NI>VI>NI>What do you expect when the media is ALWAYS showing skinny women!!! VI>NI>VI>NI>--- VI>NI>VI>Absoultey! Not only that by the media shows impossibly skinny VI>NI>VI>women--6 feet tall but only 120 pounds and some such nonsense! VI>NI>I personally think the mags. should show women who are my size or VI>NI>larger, NOT these women who are really clothes hangers! VI>NI>--- VI>That's because you're a realistic size. And quite cute. :) VI>Although I am sure right now, with little Patrick in your belly you are VI>probably quite large. :) A little large but that's to be expected. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ I do not command you to attack. I command you to die! -MK Date: Sunday, June 14, 1998 4:36pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Steve C Msg#: 746775 To: Vida Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746760, Reply to #746752, Reply to #746741, R*) (1 reply) VI>NI>VI>NI>What do you expect when the media is ALWAYS showing skinny women!!! VI>NI>VI>NI>--- VI>NI>VI>Absoultey! Not only that by the media shows impossibly skinny VI>NI>VI>women--6 feet tall but only 120 pounds and some such nonsense! VI>NI>I personally think the mags. should show women who are my size or VI>NI>larger, NOT these women who are really clothes hangers! VI>NI>--- VI>That's because you're a realistic size. And quite cute. :) VI>Although I am sure right now, with little Patrick in your belly you are VI>probably quite large. :) She is , but she's still as gorgeous as ever. :) --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Short Book: Everything Men Know About Women Date: Sunday, June 14, 1998 7:44pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746778 To: Kkid Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746766, Reply to #746686, Reply to #746675, R*) (2 replies) KK>VI>KK>college any different than law school or med school. Do law schools an KK>VI>KK>[Ad schools provide remediation? (I hope not :-) KK>VI>KK>I am sure there are courses the law student and med student can take t KK>VI>KK>help them for exams but are these courses given by the college? Are th KK>VI>KK>given for exams only or also for general classes? KK>VI>Professional schools are in a different category than undergrad liberal KK>VI>arts colleges. Professional schools train a student for a specifric KK>VI>career. A med student will eventually become a doctor if he or she KK>VI>passes medical school. So of course the medical student has to perform KK>VI>on a certain level. KK>That is my point of disagreement with you. I feel that once the student KK>is out of high school then the government has really done what is KK>required. Anything else is up to the student. They now have the option KK>for continuing with their education, training for a job, or actually KK>going to work. As such I equate college to the "professional schools" as KK>you call them. You really think that a 17 or 18 year old kid is ready to take on that kind of responsbility? I don't. KK>VI>KK>VI>I'm pretty sure there was a college level math. But I am not 100%. KK>VI>KK>VI>Why don't you ask your daughter? She could resolve the debate. :) KK>VI>KK>She took one math course which was nothing really new to her. She is n KK>VI>KK>majoring in any area that will require more math courses. She had to KK>VI>KK>take a computer class which required knowledge of HS math. And she is KK>VI>KK>now taking a statistics course which is required for her major. KK>VI>What's her major? KK>I think she plans on majoring in psychology. Oh please! Try to talk some sense in to her. She seems too bright to waste her time with that stuff. Date: Sunday, June 14, 1998 7:45pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746779 To: Editor Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746768, Reply to #746759, Reply to #746750, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >ED>So each political fund raiser costs over $2,200,000. Typically he r ED>V >ED>$500,000-$700,000 on each of these trips. he makes 6-10 trips to NY ED>V >ED>year. Well over $20,000,000. And that's a bargain. A trip to Chicag ED>V >ED>Los Angeles is worse. You'll hit $200,000,000 pretty quickly. ED>V > ED>V >ED>I don't know about you, but I think that's obscene. ED>V > ED>V >I'm a realist. I see this as part of our system. It's not likely to ED>V >change without a fundamental change in the system. ED>And so long as you accept this kind of obscenity it will indeed remain part ED>of the system. I wish I had such power. There are a lot worse obsenities that I would like to see abolished. But so far they still exist. Date: Sunday, June 14, 1998 7:47pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746780 To: Nightbird Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746773, Reply to #746760, Reply to #746752, R*) (1 reply) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>From the Abigail's L feminist e mail list. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI> Subject: More women unhappy with their body images NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>************************************************************* NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>What do you expect when the media is ALWAYS showing skinny women NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>--- NI>VI>NI>VI>Absoultey! Not only that by the media shows impossibly skinny NI>VI>NI>VI>women--6 feet tall but only 120 pounds and some such nonsense! NI>VI>NI>I personally think the mags. should show women who are my size or NI>VI>NI>larger, NOT these women who are really clothes hangers! NI>VI>NI>--- NI>VI>That's because you're a realistic size. And quite cute. :) NI>VI>Although I am sure right now, with little Patrick in your belly you are NI>VI>probably quite large. :) NI>A little large but that's to be expected. NI>--- A little large? Aren't you in your 6th or 7th month of pregnancy by now? Date: Sunday, June 14, 1998 7:47pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746781 To: Steve C Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746775, Reply to #746760, Reply to #746752, R*) (1 reply) SC>VI>NI>VI>NI>What do you expect when the media is ALWAYS showing skinny women SC>VI>NI>VI>NI>--- SC>VI>NI>VI>Absoultey! Not only that by the media shows impossibly skinny SC>VI>NI>VI>women--6 feet tall but only 120 pounds and some such nonsense! SC>VI>NI>I personally think the mags. should show women who are my size or SC>VI>NI>larger, NOT these women who are really clothes hangers! SC>VI>NI>--- SC>VI>That's because you're a realistic size. And quite cute. :) SC>VI>Although I am sure right now, with little Patrick in your belly you are SC>VI>probably quite large. :) SC>She is , but she's still as gorgeous as ever. :) SC>--- That goes without saying! :) Date: Monday, June 15, 1998 12:09pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 746787 To: Vida Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746780, Reply to #746773, Reply to #746760, R*) (1 reply) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>From the Abigail's L feminist e mail list. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI> Subject: More women unhappy with their body images VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>********************************************************** VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>What do you expect when the media is ALWAYS showing skinny wo VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>--- VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Absoultey! Not only that by the media shows impossibly skinny VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>women--6 feet tall but only 120 pounds and some such nonsense! VI>NI>VI>NI>I personally think the mags. should show women who are my size or VI>NI>VI>NI>larger, NOT these women who are really clothes hangers! VI>NI>VI>NI>--- VI>NI>VI>That's because you're a realistic size. And quite cute. :) VI>NI>VI>Although I am sure right now, with little Patrick in your belly you ar VI>NI>VI>probably quite large. :) VI>NI>A little large but that's to be expected. VI>NI>--- VI>A little large? Aren't you in your 6th or 7th month of pregnancy by VI>now? Well, I'm at 27 wks right now(6 months, 3 wks)I'll be 28 wks(7 months)on June 20. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Brain Damage? No thanks, I already have some. Date: Monday, June 15, 1998 1:18pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746789 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746779, Reply to #746768, Reply to #746759, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>And so long as you accept this kind of obscenity it will indeed rem V >ED>of the system. V > V >I wish I had such power. There are a lot worse obsenities that I woul V >like to see abolished. But so far they still exist. I hate to sound like Tony whatisname, the guy with the big teeth who does infomercials all night, but things start by refusing to accept that kind of crap. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Monday, June 15, 1998 1:18pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746790 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746778, Reply to #746766, Reply to #746686, R*) (1 reply) V >KK>That is my point of disagreement with you. I feel that once the stu V >KK>is out of high school then the government has really done what is V >KK>required. Anything else is up to the student. They now have the opt V >KK>for continuing with their education, training for a job, or actuall V >KK>going to work. As such I equate college to the "professional school V >KK>you call them. V > V >You really think that a 17 or 18 year old kid is ready to take on that V >kind of responsbility? I don't. Better take a closer look. At 18 we consider kids pretty much totally responsible. The draft age used to be 18. The age of sexual consent is 18 or lower. You can drive at 16 (in most parts of the country), drink and vote at 18 or so. You are considered an adult if you commit a crime. Sounds pretty responsible to me. V >KK>VI>What's her major? V > V >KK>I think she plans on majoring in psychology. V > V >Oh please! Try to talk some sense in to her. She seems too bright to V >waste her time with that stuff. Psychology a waste? That surprises me. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Monday, June 15, 1998 1:18pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746791 To: Vida Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746781, Reply to #746775, Reply to #746760, R*) (2 replies) V >SC>VI>Although I am sure right now, with little Patrick in your belly V >SC>VI>probably quite large. :) V > V >SC>She is , but she's still as gorgeous as ever. :) V >SC>--- V > V >That goes without saying! :) Was it Demi Moore who did that semi nude layout while pregnant? I can understand why a women would be concerned, but pregnant women don't really look bad, especially one who is happy to be pregnant. Far from it. Must be the psychological impact on the woman. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Monday, June 15, 1998 3:01pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 746792 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746778, Reply to #746766, Reply to #746686, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>VI>KK>She took one math course which was nothing really new to her. She i VI>KK>VI>KK>majoring in any area that will require more math courses. She had t VI>KK>VI>KK>take a computer class which required knowledge of HS math. And she VI>KK>VI>KK>now taking a statistics course which is required for her major. VI>KK>VI>What's her major? VI>KK>I think she plans on majoring in psychology. VI>Oh please! Try to talk some sense in to her. She seems too bright to VI>waste her time with that stuff. She is interested in doing research. Date: Monday, June 15, 1998 6:12pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746793 To: Nightbird Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746787, Reply to #746780, Reply to #746773, R*) (1 reply) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>From the Abigail's L feminist e mail list. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI> Subject: More women unhappy with their body images NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>******************************************************* NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>What do you expect when the media is ALWAYS showing skinny NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>--- NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Absoultey! Not only that by the media shows impossibly skin NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>women--6 feet tall but only 120 pounds and some such nonsense NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I personally think the mags. should show women who are my size o NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>larger, NOT these women who are really clothes hangers! NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>--- NI>VI>NI>VI>That's because you're a realistic size. And quite cute. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>Although I am sure right now, with little Patrick in your belly you NI>VI>NI>VI>probably quite large. :) NI>VI>NI>A little large but that's to be expected. NI>VI>NI>--- NI>VI>A little large? Aren't you in your 6th or 7th month of pregnancy by NI>VI>now? NI>Well, I'm at 27 wks right now(6 months, 3 wks)I'll be 28 wks(7 months)on NI>June 20. NI>--- Wow!! Continued best wishes to you and Patrick. :) Date: Monday, June 15, 1998 6:13pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746794 To: Editor Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746789, Reply to #746779, Reply to #746768, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >ED>And so long as you accept this kind of obscenity it will indeed rem ED>V >ED>of the system. ED>V > ED>V >I wish I had such power. There are a lot worse obsenities that I woul ED>V >like to see abolished. But so far they still exist. ED>I hate to sound like Tony whatisname, the guy with the big teeth who does ED>infomercials all night, but things start by refusing to accept that kind of ED>crap. Yeah. Right. Tell me another story. If that were true, things would be a LOT different in the world! Date: Monday, June 15, 1998 6:18pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746795 To: Editor Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746790, Reply to #746778, Reply to #746766, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >KK>That is my point of disagreement with you. I feel that once the stu ED>V >KK>is out of high school then the government has really done what is ED>V >KK>required. Anything else is up to the student. They now have the opt ED>V >KK>for continuing with their education, training for a job, or actuall ED>V >KK>going to work. As such I equate college to the "professional school ED>V >KK>you call them. ED>V > ED>V >You really think that a 17 or 18 year old kid is ready to take on that ED>V >kind of responsbility? I don't. ED>Better take a closer look. At 18 we consider kids pretty much totally ED>responsible. The draft age used to be 18. The age of sexual consent is 18 ED>or lower. You can drive at 16 (in most parts of the country), drink and ED>vote at 18 or so. You are considered an adult if you commit a crime. ED>Sounds pretty responsible to me. But is this realistic? I think that in terms of intellectual development you don't become an adult until you are age 21. That is if you are lucky. As for myself, I don't think I became a real adult until age 39--which was the age when both of my parents had passed away. ED>V >KK>VI>What's her major? ED>V > ED>V >KK>I think she plans on majoring in psychology. ED>V > ED>V >Oh please! Try to talk some sense in to her. She seems too bright to ED>V >waste her time with that stuff. ED>Psychology a waste? That surprises me. How so? You think I love psychology and psychologists? I think that stuff is largely clap trap. Date: Monday, June 15, 1998 6:19pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746796 To: Editor Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746791, Reply to #746781, Reply to #746775, R*) (2 replies) ED>V >SC>VI>Although I am sure right now, with little Patrick in your belly ED>V >SC>VI>probably quite large. :) ED>V > ED>V >SC>She is , but she's still as gorgeous as ever. :) ED>V >SC>--- ED>V > ED>V >That goes without saying! :) ED>Was it Demi Moore who did that semi nude layout while pregnant? Yup. ED>I can understand why a women would be concerned, but pregnant women don't ED>really look bad, especially one who is happy to be pregnant. Far from it. ED>Must be the psychological impact on the woman. No, I think it's societal conditioning again. A pregnant woman can't very well fit into a size 2 or 4 dress. Date: Monday, June 15, 1998 6:20pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746797 To: Kkid Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746792, Reply to #746778, Reply to #746766, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>KK>VI>KK>She took one math course which was nothing really new to her. Sh KK>VI>KK>VI>KK>majoring in any area that will require more math courses. She ha KK>VI>KK>VI>KK>take a computer class which required knowledge of HS math. And s KK>VI>KK>VI>KK>now taking a statistics course which is required for her major. KK>VI>KK>VI>What's her major? KK>VI>KK>I think she plans on majoring in psychology. KK>VI>Oh please! Try to talk some sense in to her. She seems too bright to KK>VI>waste her time with that stuff. KK>She is interested in doing research. Not the Skinner behavioralist stuff I would hope! Date: Monday, June 15, 1998 7:06pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 746799 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746797, Reply to #746792, Reply to #746778, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>VI>KK>VI>What's her major? VI>KK>VI>KK>I think she plans on majoring in psychology. VI>KK>VI>Oh please! Try to talk some sense in to her. She seems too bright to VI>KK>VI>waste her time with that stuff. VI>KK>She is interested in doing research. VI>Not the Skinner behavioralist stuff I would hope! I have no idea at all. Now she is putting in extra time working at their infant center. Date: Monday, June 15, 1998 10:36pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746801 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746794, Reply to #746789, Reply to #746779, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>V >ED>And so long as you accept this kind of obscenity it will inde V >ED>V >ED>of the system. V >ED>V > V >ED>V >I wish I had such power. There are a lot worse obsenities that V >ED>V >like to see abolished. But so far they still exist. V > V >ED>I hate to sound like Tony whatisname, the guy with the big teeth wh V >ED>infomercials all night, but things start by refusing to accept that V >ED>crap. V > V >Yeah. Right. Tell me another story. V > V > If that were true, things would be a LOT different in the world! Why do you have such a low opinion of your ability to change things? Each time one person says "I'm not going to put up with this shit anymore", that emotion is echoed by 100 others. If 100 people react that way, you have something. If you hit 1000, you've got everyone's attention. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Monday, June 15, 1998 10:37pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746802 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746795, Reply to #746790, Reply to #746778, R*) (1 reply) V >But is this realistic? V > V >I think that in terms of intellectual development you don't become an V >adult until you are age 21. That is if you are lucky. As for myself, V >I don't think I became a real adult until age 39--which was the age V >when both of my parents had passed away. Maybe yes. Maybe no. But its necessary. You have to cut the chord, and 18-19 is already pretty late. V >ED>Psychology a waste? That surprises me. V > V > V >How so? You think I love psychology and psychologists? I think that V >stuff is largely clap trap. You don't think that clinical shrinks help people? --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Monday, June 15, 1998 10:37pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746803 To: Vida Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746796, Reply to #746791, Reply to #746781, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>Was it Demi Moore who did that semi nude layout while pregnant? V > V >Yup. V > V >ED>I can understand why a women would be concerned, but pregnant women V >ED>really look bad, especially one who is happy to be pregnant. Far fr V >ED>Must be the psychological impact on the woman. V > V >No, I think it's societal conditioning again. A pregnant woman can't V >very well fit into a size 2 or 4 dress. Neither can most non-pregnant women. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Tuesday, June 16, 1998 6:49am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746809 To: Kkid Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746799, Reply to #746797, Reply to #746792, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>KK>VI>KK>VI>What's her major? KK>VI>KK>VI>KK>I think she plans on majoring in psychology. KK>VI>KK>VI>Oh please! Try to talk some sense in to her. She seems too bright KK>VI>KK>VI>waste her time with that stuff. KK>VI>KK>She is interested in doing research. KK>VI>Not the Skinner behavioralist stuff I would hope! KK>I have no idea at all. Now she is putting in extra time working at their KK>infant center. I'm surprised you didn't ask. I would be real curious as to what kind of work they are doing with infants. Date: Tuesday, June 16, 1998 6:52am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746810 To: Editor Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746801, Reply to #746794, Reply to #746789, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >ED>V >ED>And so long as you accept this kind of obscenity it will inde ED>V >ED>V >ED>of the system. ED>V >ED>V > ED>V >ED>V >I wish I had such power. There are a lot worse obsenities that ED>V >ED>V >like to see abolished. But so far they still exist. ED>V > ED>V >ED>I hate to sound like Tony whatisname, the guy with the big teeth wh ED>V >ED>infomercials all night, but things start by refusing to accept that ED>V >ED>crap. ED>V > ED>V >Yeah. Right. Tell me another story. ED>V > ED>V > If that were true, things would be a LOT different in the world! ED>Why do you have such a low opinion of your ability to change things? Each ED>time one person says "I'm not going to put up with this shit anymore", that ED>emotion is echoed by 100 others. If 100 people react that way, you have ED>something. If you hit 1000, you've got everyone's attention. Experience, my friend is the answer. For a feminist to live in a time which is increasingly described as "post feminist" is a very bitter pill to swallow--especially when patriachy is very much alive and kicking. Date: Tuesday, June 16, 1998 6:56am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746811 To: Editor Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746802, Reply to #746795, Reply to #746790, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >But is this realistic? ED>V > ED>V >I think that in terms of intellectual development you don't become an ED>V >adult until you are age 21. That is if you are lucky. As for myself, ED>V >I don't think I became a real adult until age 39--which was the age ED>V >when both of my parents had passed away. ED>Maybe yes. Maybe no. But its necessary. You have to cut the chord, and ED>18-19 is already pretty late. I don't think it is necessary that your parents be dead before you can be an adult. But in terms of maturity, I think that you need a certain amount of life experience to be a real adult. You definitely don't normally reach that point by age 18 or 19--unless you serve in the military in a war, of course! ED>V >ED>Psychology a waste? That surprises me. ED>V > ED>V > ED>V >How so? You think I love psychology and psychologists? I think that ED>V >stuff is largely clap trap. ED>You don't think that clinical shrinks help people? Yeah. The shrinks. Shrinks are like lawyers. The world would be a lot better off if the vast majority of the practioners went into something more constructive. Date: Tuesday, June 16, 1998 6:57am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746812 To: Editor Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746803, Reply to #746796, Reply to #746791, R*) ED>V >ED>Was it Demi Moore who did that semi nude layout while pregnant? ED>V > ED>V >Yup. ED>V > ED>V >ED>I can understand why a women would be concerned, but pregnant women ED>V >ED>really look bad, especially one who is happy to be pregnant. Far fr ED>V >ED>Must be the psychological impact on the woman. ED>V > ED>V >No, I think it's societal conditioning again. A pregnant woman can't ED>V >very well fit into a size 2 or 4 dress. ED>Neither can most non-pregnant women. That's the whole point. Date: Tuesday, June 16, 1998 12:20pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 746817 To: Vida Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746793, Reply to #746787, Reply to #746780, R*) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>From the Abigail's L feminist e mail list. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI> Subject: More women unhappy with their body images VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>**************************************************** VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>What do you expect when the media is ALWAYS showing ski VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>--- VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Absoultey! Not only that by the media shows impossibly s VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>women--6 feet tall but only 120 pounds and some such nonse VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I personally think the mags. should show women who are my siz VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>larger, NOT these women who are really clothes hangers! VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>--- VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>That's because you're a realistic size. And quite cute. :) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Although I am sure right now, with little Patrick in your belly VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>probably quite large. :) VI>NI>VI>NI>A little large but that's to be expected. VI>NI>VI>NI>--- VI>NI>VI>A little large? Aren't you in your 6th or 7th month of pregnancy by VI>NI>VI>now? VI>NI>Well, I'm at 27 wks right now(6 months, 3 wks)I'll be 28 wks(7 months)on VI>NI>June 20. VI>NI>--- VI>Wow!! Continued best wishes to you and Patrick. :) Thanks! --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ The PARITY CHECK is in the E-MAIL... Date: Tuesday, June 16, 1998 12:20pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 746818 To: Editor Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746791, Reply to #746781, Reply to #746775, R*) (2 replies) ED>V >SC>VI>Although I am sure right now, with little Patrick in your belly ED>V >SC>VI>probably quite large. :) ED>V > ED>V >SC>She is , but she's still as gorgeous as ever. :) ED>V >SC>--- ED>V > ED>V >That goes without saying! :) ED>Was it Demi Moore who did that semi nude layout while pregnant? ED>I can understand why a women would be concerned, but pregnant women don't ED>really look bad, especially one who is happy to be pregnant. Far from it. ED>Must be the psychological impact on the woman. Personally speaking, I look as good if not better right now & I'm almost 7 months pregnant. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Option to override self-destruct expir@^%i@&$#NO CARRIER Date: Tuesday, June 16, 1998 12:20pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 746819 To: Vida Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746796, Reply to #746791, Reply to #746781, R*) (1 reply) VI>ED>V >SC>VI>Although I am sure right now, with little Patrick in your belly VI>ED>V >SC>VI>probably quite large. :) VI>ED>V > VI>ED>V >SC>She is , but she's still as gorgeous as ever. :) VI>ED>V >SC>--- VI>ED>V > VI>ED>V >That goes without saying! :) VI>ED>Was it Demi Moore who did that semi nude layout while pregnant? VI>Yup. VI>ED>I can understand why a women would be concerned, but pregnant women don't VI>ED>really look bad, especially one who is happy to be pregnant. Far from it. VI>ED>Must be the psychological impact on the woman. VI>No, I think it's societal conditioning again. A pregnant woman can't VI>very well fit into a size 2 or 4 dress. Any women who was a size 2 or 4 before she got pregnant won't be able to fit into the dresses after they had the baby(but by then, she'll be so busy, I don't think she'll care) Hey, I have some wonderful dressy clothes just for when I'm pregnant. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Oh what a tangled FAT we weave, when we FUBAR Interleave. Date: Tuesday, June 16, 1998 7:07pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746820 To: ** ALL ** Re: The political misuse of the Bible I debated as to whether to post this here or to /Theology. The New York Times, June 16, 1998 Op-Ed page http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/oped/16wils.html The Good Book of Few Answers By A. N. Wilson LONDON -- The Southern Baptist Convention in Salt Lake City adopted a declaration last week intended to reinforce traditional Christian family values. Based on the Epistle to the Ephesians, a text that may or may not have been written by Saint Paul, it asserts that "a wife is to submit graciously to the servant leadership of her husband even as the church willingly submits to the headship of Christ." Not surprisingly, the declaration has been received with some dismay by women's groups, liberal Christians and those who have noticed that social and familial conditions in modern America differ somewhat from those of first-century Asia Minor. In a society where many families depend on both parents' jobs, and where women are just as likely to earn a salary as men, it seems, to those who are not conservative evangelicals, as impractical as it is undesirable to try to re-create the ethics and behavioral patterns of a vanished age. One is tempted to wonder how many of the 16 million members of the Southern Baptist Convention -- they include President Clinton, Vice President Al Gore and Speaker Newt Gingrich -- really try to impose "servant leadership" over their wives and, if they do, whether the wives "submit graciously." R. Albert Mohler Jr., president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Ky., is impenitent. The declaration has been made at a time of "growing crisis in the family" and, says Mr. Mohler, the submission of wives to husbands is "clearly revealed in Scripture." It is "God's pattern." The attempts by those like Mr. Mohler to be true fundamentalists very readily come unstuck once you begin to challenge them. A year ago, the Southern Baptists called for a boycott of the Walt Disney company on the ground that it condoned homosexuality. Saint Paul (Romans 1:27) condemned "men with men working that which is unseemly." So if you take the view that Saint Paul was infallible, it looks like an open and shut case. But does that mean that Southern Baptists condone slavery (as Paul does in his Epistle to Philemon)? Do the Southern Baptists pool all their property and hold everything in common, as the first Christians did? Do they condemn giving money upon usury -- as do all Biblical texts that refer to the subject -- and if so, how do they manage to invest in the stock market, put savings into pensions or even have a bank account? Christ taught us that we should not lay up treasure at all. What about the teaching of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount, that we should bless our enemies and not resist evil? Does the Southern Baptist Convention embrace pacifism? Even the most fervent fundamentalists have to be highly selective in their fundamentals. They want to believe that every word of Scripture is God's word, and therefore infallible. But paradoxically, their hero is Saint Paul, who entirely overturned the Jewish reverence for the letter of the law and who regarded the Torah -- Greek Nomos -- as a dirty word. They try to make Paul into their own Torah, of course. But where does that leave their attitude to the Jewish Scriptures? How many Christian fundamentalists in America today keep the Jewish dietary laws? How many of them approve of stoning adulteresses? (On second thought, one would rather not know the answer to that question.) Yet all these things are part of "Biblical morality." The truth is that if you want to extract a template of sexual morality and politics from the New Testament -- leaving aside the Old Testament for the moment -- you will find that the texts yield highly confusing results. Paul, for instance, moved in a cosmopolitan, commercial middle-class world in which several of his female friends -- Lydia is a conspicuous example, and Priscilla is another -- clearly ran their own businesses and were the heads of the respective churches in their localities. The text in which Paul tells the Corinthians that "women should keep silent in church" is obviously an interpolation by a later, misogynist Christian scribe, since earlier in the same letter Paul has spoken of women prophesying. Paul thought the world was about to end. Far from having a cozy 1950's-style ideal of family life, he advised his followers not to marry at all. The early church was consistently hostile to family life, and held up as role models ascetics, celibates, self-mutilators and desert dropouts. It is safe to say that none of the saints or heroes of the early church would have been welcome at a Southern Baptist Convention. Cross-question conservative evangelicals closely and you will virtually always find that their religion consists in deifying a mid-20th century, middle-class, Western way of life. A few stray texts chosen at random from the confusing and multifarious pages of the Bible serve as useful bats with which to hammer the heads of homosexuals, divorced women, Jews and more or less anyone who is not a conservative evangelical. That said, my heart does rather bleed for them. Truly. They have seen a terrible problem, but they have found a solution that is not just terrible in itself, it is a nonsolution. The problem is the ethical dissolution of America and Europe, a collapse of any shared value-systems or any way in which we can talk to one another about right and wrong. A true Biblical faith recognizes that the Bible is not a book of answers. It's the story of the human race getting it wrong, over and over and over again. Even Saint Paul frequently contradicts himself, rebuking his own folly, harshness and intolerance. Like us, he lived in a time of social and moral dissolution. The imaginative freedom that he sought from the bonds of "Law" is something truly exciting, if one could begin to grasp its meaning. It has next to nothing to do with attempts to drag the women into line -- an ambition that, even if it were desirable, has been shown to be comically ineffectual since the time of Aristophanes. A. N. Wilson is the author of "Paul: The Mind of the Apostle" and "Jesus," among many other works. Date: Tuesday, June 16, 1998 8:10pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 746821 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746809, Reply to #746799, Reply to #746797, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>VI>KK>She is interested in doing research. VI>KK>VI>Not the Skinner behavioralist stuff I would hope! VI>KK>I have no idea at all. Now she is putting in extra time working at their VI>KK>infant center. VI>I'm surprised you didn't ask. I would be real curious as to what kind VI>of work they are doing with infants. I think she's training them to play piano... JUST KIDDING! :-) I will ask. Date: Wednesday, June 17, 1998 6:15am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746824 To: Nightbird Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746818, Reply to #746791, Reply to #746781, R*) (1 reply) NI>ED>V >SC>VI>Although I am sure right now, with little Patrick in your belly NI>ED>V >SC>VI>probably quite large. :) NI>ED>V > NI>ED>V >SC>She is , but she's still as gorgeous as ever. :) NI>ED>V >SC>--- NI>ED>V > NI>ED>V >That goes without saying! :) NI>ED>Was it Demi Moore who did that semi nude layout while pregnant? NI>ED>I can understand why a women would be concerned, but pregnant women don't NI>ED>really look bad, especially one who is happy to be pregnant. Far from it. NI>ED>Must be the psychological impact on the woman. NI>Personally speaking, I look as good if not better right now & I'm almost NI>7 months pregnant. I have no doubt you look better than ever. :) Date: Wednesday, June 17, 1998 6:18am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746825 To: Nightbird Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746819, Reply to #746796, Reply to #746791, R*) (1 reply) NI>VI>ED>V >SC>VI>Although I am sure right now, with little Patrick in your bel NI>VI>ED>V >SC>VI>probably quite large. :) NI>VI>ED>V > NI>VI>ED>V >SC>She is , but she's still as gorgeous as ever. :) NI>VI>ED>V >SC>--- NI>VI>ED>V > NI>VI>ED>V >That goes without saying! :) NI>VI>ED>Was it Demi Moore who did that semi nude layout while pregnant? NI>VI>Yup. NI>VI>ED>I can understand why a women would be concerned, but pregnant women do NI>VI>ED>really look bad, especially one who is happy to be pregnant. Far from NI>VI>ED>Must be the psychological impact on the woman. NI>VI>No, I think it's societal conditioning again. A pregnant woman can't NI>VI>very well fit into a size 2 or 4 dress. NI>Any women who was a size 2 or 4 before she got pregnant won't be able to NI>fit into the dresses after they had the baby(but by then, she'll be so NI>busy, I don't think she'll care) NI>Hey, I have some wonderful dressy clothes just for when I'm pregnant. NI>--- A lot of them do care, believe me! I hear them moan and groan at Weight Watcher's meetings, when they turn up after the baby was born. Date: Wednesday, June 17, 1998 6:19am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746826 To: Kkid Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746821, Reply to #746809, Reply to #746799, R*) KK>VI>KK>VI>KK>She is interested in doing research. KK>VI>KK>VI>Not the Skinner behavioralist stuff I would hope! KK>VI>KK>I have no idea at all. Now she is putting in extra time working at the KK>VI>KK>infant center. KK>VI>I'm surprised you didn't ask. I would be real curious as to what kind KK>VI>of work they are doing with infants. KK>I think she's training them to play piano... KK>JUST KIDDING! :-) KK>I will ask. Don't be surprised if she tells you she IS training them to play the piano. :) Date: Wednesday, June 17, 1998 12:08pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 746832 To: Vida Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746824, Reply to #746818, Reply to #746791, R*) (1 reply) VI>NI>ED>V >SC>VI>Although I am sure right now, with little Patrick in your bel VI>NI>ED>V >SC>VI>probably quite large. :) VI>NI>ED>V > VI>NI>ED>V >SC>She is , but she's still as gorgeous as ever. :) VI>NI>ED>V >SC>--- VI>NI>ED>V > VI>NI>ED>V >That goes without saying! :) VI>NI>ED>Was it Demi Moore who did that semi nude layout while pregnant? VI>NI>ED>I can understand why a women would be concerned, but pregnant women do VI>NI>ED>really look bad, especially one who is happy to be pregnant. Far from VI>NI>ED>Must be the psychological impact on the woman. VI>NI>Personally speaking, I look as good if not better right now & I'm almost VI>NI>7 months pregnant. VI>I have no doubt you look better than ever. :) Thank you, I also think so. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Oh my God! They killed Kenny! Date: Wednesday, June 17, 1998 12:08pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 746833 To: Vida Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746825, Reply to #746819, Reply to #746796, R*) (2 replies) VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SC>VI>Although I am sure right now, with little Patrick in your VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SC>VI>probably quite large. :) VI>NI>VI>ED>V > VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SC>She is , but she's still as gorgeous as ever. :) VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SC>--- VI>NI>VI>ED>V > VI>NI>VI>ED>V >That goes without saying! :) VI>NI>VI>ED>Was it Demi Moore who did that semi nude layout while pregnant? VI>NI>VI>Yup. VI>NI>VI>ED>I can understand why a women would be concerned, but pregnant women VI>NI>VI>ED>really look bad, especially one who is happy to be pregnant. Far fr VI>NI>VI>ED>Must be the psychological impact on the woman. VI>NI>VI>No, I think it's societal conditioning again. A pregnant woman can't VI>NI>VI>very well fit into a size 2 or 4 dress. VI>NI>Any women who was a size 2 or 4 before she got pregnant won't be able to VI>NI>fit into the dresses after they had the baby(but by then, she'll be so VI>NI>busy, I don't think she'll care) VI>NI>Hey, I have some wonderful dressy clothes just for when I'm pregnant. VI>NI>--- VI>A lot of them do care, believe me! I hear them moan and groan at VI>Weight Watcher's meetings, when they turn up after the baby was born. True. Meanwhile it's a little easier to lose weight after the baby is born(if you eat right) --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Heroic couplet? You mean like Romeo and Juliet? Date: Wednesday, June 17, 1998 5:20pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 746839 To: Nightbird Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746833, Reply to #746825, Reply to #746819, R*) (1 reply) NI>Meanwhile it's a little easier to lose weight after the baby is born(if NI>you eat right) NI>--- You actually lose weight as soon as the baby is born :-) Date: Friday, June 19, 1998 4:37am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746840 To: Nightbird Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746832, Reply to #746824, Reply to #746818, R*) (1 reply) NI>VI>NI>ED>V >SC>VI>Although I am sure right now, with little Patrick in your NI>VI>NI>ED>V >SC>VI>probably quite large. :) NI>VI>NI>ED>V > NI>VI>NI>ED>V >SC>She is , but she's still as gorgeous as ever. :) NI>VI>NI>ED>V >SC>--- NI>VI>NI>ED>V > NI>VI>NI>ED>V >That goes without saying! :) NI>VI>NI>ED>Was it Demi Moore who did that semi nude layout while pregnant? NI>VI>NI>ED>I can understand why a women would be concerned, but pregnant women NI>VI>NI>ED>really look bad, especially one who is happy to be pregnant. Far fr NI>VI>NI>ED>Must be the psychological impact on the woman. NI>VI>NI>Personally speaking, I look as good if not better right now & I'm almo NI>VI>NI>7 months pregnant. NI>VI>I have no doubt you look better than ever. :) NI>Thank you, I also think so. Hopefully I will be able to see for myself how beautiful you look in a couple of weeks. :) Date: Friday, June 19, 1998 4:39am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746841 To: Nightbird Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746833, Reply to #746825, Reply to #746819, R*) (1 reply) NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SC>VI>Although I am sure right now, with little Patrick in yo NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SC>VI>probably quite large. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V > NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SC>She is , but she's still as gorgeous as ever. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SC>--- NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V > NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >That goes without saying! :) NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>Was it Demi Moore who did that semi nude layout while pregnant? NI>VI>NI>VI>Yup. NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>I can understand why a women would be concerned, but pregnant wo NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>really look bad, especially one who is happy to be pregnant. Far NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>Must be the psychological impact on the woman. NI>VI>NI>VI>No, I think it's societal conditioning again. A pregnant woman can NI>VI>NI>VI>very well fit into a size 2 or 4 dress. NI>VI>NI>Any women who was a size 2 or 4 before she got pregnant won't be able NI>VI>NI>fit into the dresses after they had the baby(but by then, she'll be so NI>VI>NI>busy, I don't think she'll care) NI>VI>NI>Hey, I have some wonderful dressy clothes just for when I'm pregnant. NI>VI>NI>--- NI>VI>A lot of them do care, believe me! I hear them moan and groan at NI>VI>Weight Watcher's meetings, when they turn up after the baby was born. NI>True. NI>Meanwhile it's a little easier to lose weight after the baby is born(if NI>you eat right) Or even if you haven't been pregnant. I don't EVEN want to go down that road. Things at work have really sucked lately and when I get upset I eat a lot of junk food. Consequently, I have been eating out of control because of all the job related tension. Date: Friday, June 19, 1998 11:41am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 746844 To: Kkid Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746839, Reply to #746833, Reply to #746825, R*) KK>NI>Meanwhile it's a little easier to lose weight after the baby is born(if KK>NI>you eat right) KK>NI>--- KK>You actually lose weight as soon as the baby is born :-) Actully, I'm hoping to lose the weight I've gained so far & a little more. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ I haven't lost my mind; it's backed up on tape somewhere! Date: Friday, June 19, 1998 11:41am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 746845 To: Vida Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746840, Reply to #746832, Reply to #746824, R*) (1 reply) VI>I>VI>NI>ED>V >SC>VI>Although I am sure right now, with little Patrick in you VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>V >SC>VI>probably quite large. :) VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>V > VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>V >SC>She is , but she's still as gorgeous as ever. :) VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>V >SC>--- VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>V > VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>V >That goes without saying! :) VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>Was it Demi Moore who did that semi nude layout while pregnant? VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>I can understand why a women would be concerned, but pregnant wo VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>really look bad, especially one who is happy to be pregnant. Far VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>Must be the psychological impact on the woman. VI>NI>VI>NI>Personally speaking, I look as good if not better right now & I'm a VI>NI>VI>NI>7 months pregnant. VI>NI>VI>I have no doubt you look better than ever. :) VI>NI>Thank you, I also think so. VI>Hopefully I will be able to see for myself how beautiful you look in a VI>couple of weeks. :) As long as it's doesn't rain. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ #30-3771: Marxism will never die. Groucho forever! Date: Friday, June 19, 1998 11:41am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 746846 To: Vida Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746841, Reply to #746833, Reply to #746825, R*) (1 reply) VI>I>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SC>VI>Although I am sure right now, with little Patrick in VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SC>VI>probably quite large. :) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V > VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SC>She is , but she's still as gorgeous as ever. :) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SC>--- VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V > VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >That goes without saying! :) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>Was it Demi Moore who did that semi nude layout while pregnan VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Yup. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>I can understand why a women would be concerned, but pregnant VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>really look bad, especially one who is happy to be pregnant. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>Must be the psychological impact on the woman. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>No, I think it's societal conditioning again. A pregnant woman VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>very well fit into a size 2 or 4 dress. VI>NI>VI>NI>Any women who was a size 2 or 4 before she got pregnant won't be ab VI>NI>VI>NI>fit into the dresses after they had the baby(but by then, she'll be VI>NI>VI>NI>busy, I don't think she'll care) VI>NI>VI>NI>Hey, I have some wonderful dressy clothes just for when I'm pregnan VI>NI>VI>NI>--- VI>NI>VI>A lot of them do care, believe me! I hear them moan and groan at VI>NI>VI>Weight Watcher's meetings, when they turn up after the baby was born. VI>NI>True. VI>NI>Meanwhile it's a little easier to lose weight after the baby is born(if VI>NI>you eat right) VI>Or even if you haven't been pregnant. I don't EVEN want to go down that VI>road. Things at work have really sucked lately and when I get upset I VI>eat a lot of junk food. Consequently, I have been eating out of control VI>because of all the job related tension. I've been home since Feb., luckly I watch how much I eat because I really don't want to gain too much with Patrick(as of the last appointment, I had gained 19 lbs) --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Miguel Cervantes wrote "Donkey Hotey". Date: Friday, June 19, 1998 12:07pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746849 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746810, Reply to #746801, Reply to #746794, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>Why do you have such a low opinion of your ability to change things V >ED>time one person says "I'm not going to put up with this shit anymor V >ED>emotion is echoed by 100 others. If 100 people react that way, you V >ED>something. If you hit 1000, you've got everyone's attention. V > V >Experience, my friend is the answer. For a feminist to live in a time V >which is increasingly described as "post feminist" is a very bitter V >pill to swallow--especially when patriachy is very much alive and V >kicking. Well... we have covered this ground before. There is a great deal of support out there for the positions you are espousing. Feminist and otherwise. There are many people who, like myself, are totally disgusted with how "the system" works. There are many, many people who you would label as "conservatives" who distrust and oppose those programs you hold dear NOT because they are opposed to them, but because they have the ultimate faith in the governments ability to screw them up, and screw them up less out of incompetence than personal venality and greed. You have got to speak up sometime or stop complaining. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Friday, June 19, 1998 12:07pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746850 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746811, Reply to #746802, Reply to #746795, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>You don't think that clinical shrinks help people? V > V >Yeah. The shrinks. V > V >Shrinks are like lawyers. The world would be a lot better off if the V >vast majority of the practioners went into something more constructive Beeeeyooouuuutifully put. Its not so much that I don't believe that shrinks are necessary and helpful as there are too many and they view everyone as being ill, the degree of the illness being the only problem. It is probably because clients of shrinks are less prone to talk than clients of lawyers that we don't have more shrink tales. I know of one highly qualified shrink who selected patients based on whether he thought they would do themselves in or not for fear of "ruining his batting average". --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Friday, June 19, 1998 12:07pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746851 To: Nightbird Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746818, Reply to #746791, Reply to #746781, R*) (2 replies) N >ED>I can understand why a women would be concerned, but pregnant women N >ED>really look bad, especially one who is happy to be pregnant. Far fr N >ED>Must be the psychological impact on the woman. N > N >Personally speaking, I look as good if not better right now & I'm almo N >7 months pregnant. I've never met you, but I'll bet you are right. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Friday, June 19, 1998 12:07pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746852 To: ** ALL ** Re: HIV support group (1 reply) Got this from an acquaintance of mine. The source is one I consider reliable. ------------------------------- A few months ago, a group of folks decided to start a new, Internet/Usenet moderated discussion group, "soc.support.aids-hiv+". The moderators of this new group would filter out the spam, hate, and venom that appears in another currently existing group. The only other group on the subject is primarily scientifically- and not support-oriented. To start this new newsgroup, the proponents fulfilled the requirement of issuing a proposal with open debate. They now need to have a vote. THIS IS WHERE YOUR HELP IS NEEDED-- I AM ASKING YOU TO PLEASE VOTE ON THIS ISSUE. A YES vote would support the creation of this moderated HIV/AIDS support group. A NO vote opposes the creation of the group. Please read the ballot *before* you vote. It is important that you understand what exactly what is being proposed. If you have any questions, you may ask the proponents listed in the proposal. How to Vote: Voting takes just a few minutes Steps: 1. Obtain an official *Call for Votes (CFV) and Ballot* 2. Follow the instructions on the ballot 3. Email it to the address listed on the ballot Three ways to obtain an official *Call for Votes (CFV) and Ballot* 1. It appears in the Usenet newsgroup news:news.announce.newgroups 2. Get it on the web with your web browser, at: ftp://ftp.isc.org/pub/usenet/news.announce.newgroups/soc/soc.support.aids-h i v+ (you may need to cut-n-paste. Use "ftp" instead of the usual "http" ) 3. Email the votetaker: If either of the above methods fail, you can email the votetaker and ask him for a "Call for Votes" (which contains a ballot) The address is cfv-request@uvv.stanford.edu. Say in the subject line: "ssah+" (leave out the quotes) Notes: - You can only have one vote per person, and one vote per email address. - Voting rules prohibit emailing ballots or copies or the CFVs. If you do this, your vote will be invalidated. Thanks! --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Saturday, June 20, 1998 5:37am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746856 To: Nightbird Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746845, Reply to #746840, Reply to #746832, R*) (1 reply) NI>VI>I>VI>NI>ED>V >SC>VI>Although I am sure right now, with little Patrick in NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>V >SC>VI>probably quite large. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>V > NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>V >SC>She is , but she's still as gorgeous as ever. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>V >SC>--- NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>V > NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>V >That goes without saying! :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>Was it Demi Moore who did that semi nude layout while pregnan NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>I can understand why a women would be concerned, but pregnant NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>really look bad, especially one who is happy to be pregnant. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>Must be the psychological impact on the woman. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Personally speaking, I look as good if not better right now & I' NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>7 months pregnant. NI>VI>NI>VI>I have no doubt you look better than ever. :) NI>VI>NI>Thank you, I also think so. NI>VI>Hopefully I will be able to see for myself how beautiful you look in a NI>VI>couple of weeks. :) NI>As long as it's doesn't rain. From your mouth to G*d's ear! :) Date: Saturday, June 20, 1998 5:39am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746857 To: Nightbird Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746846, Reply to #746841, Reply to #746833, R*) (1 reply) NI>VI>I>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SC>VI>Although I am sure right now, with little Patrick NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SC>VI>probably quite large. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V > NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SC>She is , but she's still as gorgeous as ever. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SC>--- NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V > NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >That goes without saying! :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>Was it Demi Moore who did that semi nude layout while preg NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Yup. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>I can understand why a women would be concerned, but pregn NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>really look bad, especially one who is happy to be pregnan NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>Must be the psychological impact on the woman. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>No, I think it's societal conditioning again. A pregnant wom NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>very well fit into a size 2 or 4 dress. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Any women who was a size 2 or 4 before she got pregnant won't be NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>fit into the dresses after they had the baby(but by then, she'll NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>busy, I don't think she'll care) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Hey, I have some wonderful dressy clothes just for when I'm preg NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>--- NI>VI>NI>VI>A lot of them do care, believe me! I hear them moan and groan at NI>VI>NI>VI>Weight Watcher's meetings, when they turn up after the baby was bor NI>VI>NI>True. NI>VI>NI>Meanwhile it's a little easier to lose weight after the baby is born(i NI>VI>NI>you eat right) NI>VI>Or even if you haven't been pregnant. I don't EVEN want to go down that NI>VI>road. Things at work have really sucked lately and when I get upset I NI>VI>eat a lot of junk food. Consequently, I have been eating out of control NI>VI>because of all the job related tension. NI>I've been home since Feb., luckly I watch how much I eat because I NI>really don't want to gain too much with Patrick(as of the last NI>appointment, I had gained 19 lbs) Do your best not to binge until Patrick is born. I am sure your doctor has told you that it is not too good to be too heavy when it is time to give birth. Date: Saturday, June 20, 1998 5:43am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746858 To: Editor Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746849, Reply to #746810, Reply to #746801, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >ED>Why do you have such a low opinion of your ability to change things ED>V >ED>time one person says "I'm not going to put up with this shit anymor ED>V >ED>emotion is echoed by 100 others. If 100 people react that way, you ED>V >ED>something. If you hit 1000, you've got everyone's attention. ED>V > ED>V >Experience, my friend is the answer. For a feminist to live in a time ED>V >which is increasingly described as "post feminist" is a very bitter ED>V >pill to swallow--especially when patriachy is very much alive and ED>V >kicking. ED>Well... we have covered this ground before. There is a great deal of ED>support out there for the positions you are espousing. Feminist and ED>otherwise. There are many people who, like myself, are totally disgusted ED>with how "the system" works. There are many, many people who you would ED>label as "conservatives" who distrust and oppose those programs you hold ED>dear NOT because they are opposed to them, but because they have the ED>ultimate faith in the governments ability to screw them up, and screw them ED>up less out of incompetence than personal venality and greed. ED>You have got to speak up sometime or stop complaining. ED>--- ED> þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy I have never given up speaking out. I just don't have very much faith in my ability to change the system. And in my opinion the reason why things don't change has NOTHING absolutely with the idea held by libertians that the government will screw up everything. The real reason why the system doesn't change is that there are vested interests who don't want to give up their power and prestige. Furthermore, I believe that Karl Marx was quite correct when he pointed out that the people with power and prestige NEVER voluntarily surrender it. Date: Saturday, June 20, 1998 5:52am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746859 To: Editor Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746850, Reply to #746811, Reply to #746802, R*) (2 replies) ED>V >ED>You don't think that clinical shrinks help people? ED>V > ED>V >Yeah. The shrinks. ED>V > ED>V >Shrinks are like lawyers. The world would be a lot better off if the ED>V >vast majority of the practioners went into something more constructive ED>Beeeeyooouuuutifully put. Its not so much that I don't believe that shrinks ED>are necessary and helpful as there are too many and they view everyone as ED>being ill, the degree of the illness being the only problem. It is ED>probably because clients of shrinks are less prone to talk than clients of ED>lawyers that we don't have more shrink tales. I know of one highly ED>qualified shrink who selected patients based on whether he thought they ED>would do themselves in or not for fear of "ruining his batting average". I think the real problem with shrinks and the like is that they manipulate their clients so that they remain in therapy for extended periods of time, rather than help them get over their problems and live their lives. I am thinking of the Woody Allen movies in which Woody remains in therapy for 7 years, 10 years whatever. On second thought, Woody Allen obviously needs therapy because he still doesn't "get it" that he should have never gotten sexually involved with Soon Yi. The other part of my reaction to Kkid's daughter majoring in psychology is that it is Kkid's DAUGHTER majoring in this area of study. Social work and clinical psychology are sterotypically female professions. It gauls me that an obviously bright, intelligent young woman doesn't go into one of the hard sciences or technology. Certainly if she were my daughter I would try to influence her to do so. Date: Saturday, June 20, 1998 5:53am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746860 To: Editor Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746851, Reply to #746818, Reply to #746791, R*) (1 reply) ED>N >ED>I can understand why a women would be concerned, but pregnant women ED>N >ED>really look bad, especially one who is happy to be pregnant. Far fr ED>N >ED>Must be the psychological impact on the woman. ED>N > ED>N >Personally speaking, I look as good if not better right now & I'm almo ED>N >7 months pregnant. ED>I've never met you, but I'll bet you are right. I have met Marie and we are supposed to meet at the Mermaid Parade next weekend. So I will report back. :) Date: Saturday, June 20, 1998 5:58am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746861 To: Editor Re: HIV support group (Reply to #746852) (1 reply) ED>Got this from an acquaintance of mine. The source is one I consider ED>reliable. ED>------------------------------- ED>A few months ago, a group of folks decided to start a new, Internet/Usenet ED>moderated discussion group, "soc.support.aids-hiv+". The moderators of this ED>new group would filter out the spam, hate, and venom that appears in ED>another currently existing group. The only other group on the subject is ED>primarily scientifically- and not support-oriented. ED>To start this new newsgroup, the proponents fulfilled the requirement of ED>issuing a proposal with open debate. They now need to have a vote. THIS IS ED>WHERE YOUR HELP IS NEEDED-- I AM ASKING YOU TO PLEASE VOTE ON THIS ISSUE. ED>A YES vote would support the creation of this moderated HIV/AIDS support ED>group. A NO vote opposes the creation of the group. Please read the ballot ED>*before* you vote. It is important that you understand what exactly what is ED>being proposed. If you have any questions, you may ask the proponents ED>listed in the proposal. ED>How to Vote: Voting takes just a few minutes ED>Steps: ED>1. Obtain an official *Call for Votes (CFV) and Ballot* ED>2. Follow the instructions on the ballot ED>3. Email it to the address listed on the ballot ED>Three ways to obtain an official *Call for Votes (CFV) and Ballot* ED>1. It appears in the Usenet newsgroup news:news.announce.newgroups ED>2. Get it on the web with your web browser, at: ED>ftp://ftp.isc.org/pub/usenet/news.announce.newgroups/soc/soc.support.aids-h ED>i ED>v+ ED>(you may need to cut-n-paste. Use "ftp" instead of the usual "http" ) ED>3. Email the votetaker: If either of the above methods fail, you can email ED>the votetaker and ask him for a "Call for Votes" (which contains a ballot) ED>The address is cfv-request@uvv.stanford.edu. Say in the subject line: ED>"ssah+" (leave out the quotes) ED>Notes: ED>- You can only have one vote per person, and one vote per email address. ED>- Voting rules prohibit emailing ballots or copies or the CFVs. If you do ED>this, your vote will be invalidated. ED>Thanks! HMMM. If this is genuine than obviously I would encourage all to go out and vote YES. But I still have some questions as to whether it is real. I am on a lot of g/l/b e mail lists and don't remember every seeing anything on this. Of course I have a tendency to delete rather than read but I think this would have caught my eye and that I would have read this. Steve, do you have any information if this is real? Date: Saturday, June 20, 1998 1:11pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746864 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746858, Reply to #746849, Reply to #746810, R*) (1 reply) V >I have never given up speaking out. I just don't have very much faith V >in my ability to change the system. And in my opinion the reason why V >things don't change has NOTHING absolutely with the idea held by V >libertians that the government will screw up everything. The real V >reason why the system doesn't change is that there are vested interest V >who don't want to give up their power and prestige. Furthermore, I V >believe that Karl Marx was quite correct when he pointed out that the V >people with power and prestige NEVER voluntarily surrender it. Well... I'm not quite sure what to tell you. We elect people to government who are inherently dishonest, and we get what we deserve. Power changes hands in this country on a regular basis. We are used to it, we accept it. Karl Marx wrote his works in a time when divine right to rule was the staple, and the world's only experiment in democracy was teetering on the brink of failure. Look around, look at the last 10 years alone. The Soviet Union collapsed and a new power structure moved in.... without a single dead body. The most conservative two presidents in American history were replaced with one of the most liberal. Again, not a single dead body. Compare the status of women, blacks, the poor, etc., as it was 100-150 years ago with what it is today. None of this was accomplished by people who believed the system was immovable. I think the problem we have today is that having given the vote to virtually every man, woman and child in this country, we are discovering that most of them are well enough educated to run a soda machine, much less select their leadership. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Saturday, June 20, 1998 1:11pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746865 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746859, Reply to #746850, Reply to #746811, R*) (2 replies) V >The other part of my reaction to Kkid's daughter majoring in psycholog V >is that it is Kkid's DAUGHTER majoring in this area of study. Social V >work and clinical psychology are sterotypically female professions. I V >gauls me that an obviously bright, intelligent young woman doesn't go V >into one of the hard sciences or technology. Certainly if she were my V >daughter I would try to influence her to do so. Clinical psychology? A stereotypical female profession? No more so than law. At least half the clinical shrinks I know of are male. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Saturday, June 20, 1998 1:11pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746866 To: Vida Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746860, Reply to #746851, Reply to #746818, R*) (1 reply) V >D>N >ED>I can understand why a women would be concerned, but pregnant V >ED>N >ED>really look bad, especially one who is happy to be pregnant. V >ED>N >ED>Must be the psychological impact on the woman. V >ED>N > V >ED>N >Personally speaking, I look as good if not better right now & I' V >ED>N >7 months pregnant. V > V >ED>I've never met you, but I'll bet you are right. V >I have met Marie and we are supposed to meet at the Mermaid Parade nex V >weekend. So I will report back. :) As I read this, it is pouring outside. So, if "next weekend", is "this weekend"... and if you meet at the mermaids parade, I hope you have a nice swim. (G) --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Saturday, June 20, 1998 9:28pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 746871 To: Editor Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746851, Reply to #746818, Reply to #746791, R*) ED>N >ED>I can understand why a women would be concerned, but pregnant women ED>N >ED>really look bad, especially one who is happy to be pregnant. Far fr ED>N >ED>Must be the psychological impact on the woman. ED>N > ED>N >Personally speaking, I look as good if not better right now & I'm almo ED>N >7 months pregnant. ED>I've never met you, but I'll bet you are right. Why, thank you. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ The Indian squabs carried porpoises on their backs. Date: Saturday, June 20, 1998 9:28pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 746872 To: Vida Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746856, Reply to #746845, Reply to #746840, R*) (1 reply) VI>I>VI>I>VI>NI>ED>V >SC>VI>Although I am sure right now, with little Patrick i VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>V >SC>VI>probably quite large. :) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>V > VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>V >SC>She is , but she's still as gorgeous as ever. :) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>V >SC>--- VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>V > VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>V >That goes without saying! :) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>Was it Demi Moore who did that semi nude layout while preg VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>I can understand why a women would be concerned, but pregn VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>really look bad, especially one who is happy to be pregnan VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>Must be the psychological impact on the woman. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Personally speaking, I look as good if not better right now & VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>7 months pregnant. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>I have no doubt you look better than ever. :) VI>NI>VI>NI>Thank you, I also think so. VI>NI>VI>Hopefully I will be able to see for myself how beautiful you look in a VI>NI>VI>couple of weeks. :) VI>NI>As long as it's doesn't rain. VI>From your mouth to G*d's ear! :) Tell me about it, if it isn't raining, it's hot & humid(YUK) --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ The Pyramids are mountains between France and Spain. Date: Saturday, June 20, 1998 9:28pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 746873 To: Vida Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746857, Reply to #746846, Reply to #746841, R*) (1 reply) VI>I>VI>I>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SC>VI>Although I am sure right now, with little Patric VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SC>VI>probably quite large. :) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V > VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SC>She is , but she's still as gorgeous as ever. :) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SC>--- VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V > VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >That goes without saying! :) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>Was it Demi Moore who did that semi nude layout while p VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Yup. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>I can understand why a women would be concerned, but pr VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>really look bad, especially one who is happy to be preg VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>Must be the psychological impact on the woman. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>No, I think it's societal conditioning again. A pregnant VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>very well fit into a size 2 or 4 dress. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Any women who was a size 2 or 4 before she got pregnant won't VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>fit into the dresses after they had the baby(but by then, she VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>busy, I don't think she'll care) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Hey, I have some wonderful dressy clothes just for when I'm p VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>--- VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>A lot of them do care, believe me! I hear them moan and groan a VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Weight Watcher's meetings, when they turn up after the baby was VI>NI>VI>NI>True. VI>NI>VI>NI>Meanwhile it's a little easier to lose weight after the baby is bor VI>NI>VI>NI>you eat right) VI>NI>VI>Or even if you haven't been pregnant. I don't EVEN want to go down th VI>NI>VI>road. Things at work have really sucked lately and when I get upset I VI>NI>VI>eat a lot of junk food. Consequently, I have been eating out of contr VI>NI>VI>because of all the job related tension. VI>NI>I've been home since Feb., luckly I watch how much I eat because I VI>NI>really don't want to gain too much with Patrick(as of the last VI>NI>appointment, I had gained 19 lbs) VI>Do your best not to binge until Patrick is born. I am sure your doctor VI>has told you that it is not too good to be too heavy when it is time to VI>give birth. Not really, he hasn't said anything about my weight. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Hello. We are looking for the nuclear wessels. Date: Sunday, June 21, 1998 10:44am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746878 To: Editor Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746864, Reply to #746858, Reply to #746849, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >I have never given up speaking out. I just don't have very much faith ED>V >in my ability to change the system. And in my opinion the reason why ED>V >things don't change has NOTHING absolutely with the idea held by ED>V >libertians that the government will screw up everything. The real ED>V >reason why the system doesn't change is that there are vested interest ED>V >who don't want to give up their power and prestige. Furthermore, I ED>V >believe that Karl Marx was quite correct when he pointed out that the ED>V >people with power and prestige NEVER voluntarily surrender it. ED>Well... I'm not quite sure what to tell you. We elect people to government ED>who are inherently dishonest, and we get what we deserve. Power changes ED>hands in this country on a regular basis. We are used to it, we accept it. ED>Karl Marx wrote his works in a time when divine right to rule was the ED>staple, and the world's only experiment in democracy was teetering on the ED>brink of failure. I take issue with your statement that power changes hands in this country on a regular basis. The government is only an extremely small part of the power structure in this country. Much more important to true power in this country than the government is the corporate/industrial power elite. And that doesn't change very much at all. The military/industrial complex allows the government to change to give an illusion of change. The periodic change in our government is merely bread and circuses for the masses. ED>Look around, look at the last 10 years alone. The Soviet Union collapsed ED>and a new power structure moved in.... without a single dead body. The most ED>conservative two presidents in American history were replaced with one of ED>the most liberal. Again, not a single dead body. I would hardly categorize Clinton as one of the most liberal Presidents. He is a centrist in my opinion. He might have campaigned on as a liberal but he has uniformly stabbed liberal/progressive values on the back. ED>Compare the status of women, blacks, the poor, etc., as it was 100-150 ED>years ago with what it is today. None of this was accomplished by people ED>who believed the system was immovable. While no one can deny that the position of blacks and women are better than 150 years ago there is "glass ceiling" which keeps blacks and women out from positions of true power. And I believe that the concentration of wealth is as bad, if not worse, than it was 150 years ago. ED>I think the problem we have today is that having given the vote to ED>virtually every man, woman and child in this country, we are discovering ED>that most of them are well enough educated to run a soda machine, much less ED>select their leadership. No, the true problem is that the rich and powerful want to keep all their power and prestige. Date: Sunday, June 21, 1998 10:46am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746879 To: Editor Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746865, Reply to #746859, Reply to #746850, R*) (2 replies) ED>V >The other part of my reaction to Kkid's daughter majoring in psycholog ED>V >is that it is Kkid's DAUGHTER majoring in this area of study. Social ED>V >work and clinical psychology are sterotypically female professions. I ED>V >gauls me that an obviously bright, intelligent young woman doesn't go ED>V >into one of the hard sciences or technology. Certainly if she were my ED>V >daughter I would try to influence her to do so. ED>Clinical psychology? A stereotypical female profession? No more so than ED>law. At least half the clinical shrinks I know of are male. And I would bet those clinical shrinks are psychiatrists, not psychologists or social workers. Clinical Social Work and clincial psychology are sterotypically female professions. Date: Sunday, June 21, 1998 10:48am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746880 To: Editor Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746866, Reply to #746860, Reply to #746851, R*) ED>V >D>N >ED>I can understand why a women would be concerned, but pregnant ED>V >ED>N >ED>really look bad, especially one who is happy to be pregnant. ED>V >ED>N >ED>Must be the psychological impact on the woman. ED>V >ED>N > ED>V >ED>N >Personally speaking, I look as good if not better right now & I' ED>V >ED>N >7 months pregnant. ED>V > ED>V >ED>I've never met you, but I'll bet you are right. ED>V >I have met Marie and we are supposed to meet at the Mermaid Parade nex ED>V >weekend. So I will report back. :) ED>As I read this, it is pouring outside. So, if "next weekend", is "this ED>weekend"... and if you meet at the mermaids parade, I hope you have a nice ED>swim. (G) We are planning to meet at the Mermaid Parade. And that will take place on Saturday June 26--which is next weekend as I write. Date: Sunday, June 21, 1998 10:49am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746881 To: Nightbird Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746872, Reply to #746856, Reply to #746845, R*) (1 reply) NI>VI>I>VI>I>VI>NI>ED>V >SC>VI>Although I am sure right now, with little Patric NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>V >SC>VI>probably quite large. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>V > NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>V >SC>She is , but she's still as gorgeous as ever. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>V >SC>--- NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>V > NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>V >That goes without saying! :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>Was it Demi Moore who did that semi nude layout while p NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>I can understand why a women would be concerned, but pr NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>really look bad, especially one who is happy to be preg NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>Must be the psychological impact on the woman. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Personally speaking, I look as good if not better right no NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>7 months pregnant. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>I have no doubt you look better than ever. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Thank you, I also think so. NI>VI>NI>VI>Hopefully I will be able to see for myself how beautiful you look i NI>VI>NI>VI>couple of weeks. :) NI>VI>NI>As long as it's doesn't rain. NI>VI>From your mouth to G*d's ear! :) NI>Tell me about it, if it isn't raining, it's hot & humid(YUK) NI>--- Well summer started offically at 10 AM this morning. So it's supposed to hot and humid! :) Date: Sunday, June 21, 1998 10:50am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746882 To: Nightbird Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746873, Reply to #746857, Reply to #746846, R*) (1 reply) NI>VI>I>VI>I>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SC>VI>Although I am sure right now, with little Pat NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SC>VI>probably quite large. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V > NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SC>She is , but she's still as gorgeous as ever. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SC>--- NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V > NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >That goes without saying! :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>Was it Demi Moore who did that semi nude layout whil NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Yup. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>I can understand why a women would be concerned, but NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>really look bad, especially one who is happy to be p NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>Must be the psychological impact on the woman. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>No, I think it's societal conditioning again. A pregna NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>very well fit into a size 2 or 4 dress. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Any women who was a size 2 or 4 before she got pregnant wo NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>fit into the dresses after they had the baby(but by then, NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>busy, I don't think she'll care) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Hey, I have some wonderful dressy clothes just for when I' NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>--- NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>A lot of them do care, believe me! I hear them moan and groa NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Weight Watcher's meetings, when they turn up after the baby w NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>True. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Meanwhile it's a little easier to lose weight after the baby is NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>you eat right) NI>VI>NI>VI>Or even if you haven't been pregnant. I don't EVEN want to go down NI>VI>NI>VI>road. Things at work have really sucked lately and when I get upse NI>VI>NI>VI>eat a lot of junk food. Consequently, I have been eating out of co NI>VI>NI>VI>because of all the job related tension. NI>VI>NI>I've been home since Feb., luckly I watch how much I eat because I NI>VI>NI>really don't want to gain too much with Patrick(as of the last NI>VI>NI>appointment, I had gained 19 lbs) NI>VI>Do your best not to binge until Patrick is born. I am sure your doctor NI>VI>has told you that it is not too good to be too heavy when it is time to NI>VI>give birth. NI>Not really, he hasn't said anything about my weight. NI>--- Than you are probably doing just fine. If you had been putting on too much weight I am sure the doctor would say something to you. Date: Sunday, June 21, 1998 3:13pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 746884 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746859, Reply to #746850, Reply to #746811, R*) (1 reply) VI>The other part of my reaction to Kkid's daughter majoring in psychology VI>is that it is Kkid's DAUGHTER majoring in this area of study. Social VI>work and clinical psychology are sterotypically female professions. It VI>gauls me that an obviously bright, intelligent young woman doesn't go VI>into one of the hard sciences or technology. Certainly if she were my VI>daughter I would try to influence her to do so. I asked her again. She plans to major in physio psychology, whatever that may mean :-) At the infant center they are currently checking the eyes of infants and then send the report to the pediatrician. They have this machine that can actually tell you whether or not the infant is focusing properly. Now don't ask me what this has to do with psych! :-) Date: Sunday, June 21, 1998 3:14pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 746885 To: Editor Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746865, Reply to #746859, Reply to #746850, R*) ED>V >The other part of my reaction to Kkid's daughter majoring in psycholog ED>V >is that it is Kkid's DAUGHTER majoring in this area of study. Social ED>V >work and clinical psychology are sterotypically female professions. I ED>V >gauls me that an obviously bright, intelligent young woman doesn't go ED>V >into one of the hard sciences or technology. Certainly if she were my ED>V >daughter I would try to influence her to do so. ED>Clinical psychology? A stereotypical female profession? No more so than ED>law. At least half the clinical shrinks I know of are male. And the only ones I've known have also been male. Date: Sunday, June 21, 1998 3:15pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 746886 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746879, Reply to #746865, Reply to #746859, R*) (1 reply) VI>ED>Clinical psychology? A stereotypical female profession? No more so than VI>ED>law. At least half the clinical shrinks I know of are male. VI>And I would bet those clinical shrinks are psychiatrists, not VI>psychologists or social workers. Clinical Social Work and clincial VI>psychology are sterotypically female professions. Not that there is anything wrong with clinical psych, but I definitly recall saying that she was interested in the research aspects of psychology. Date: Sunday, June 21, 1998 9:09pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746892 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746878, Reply to #746864, Reply to #746858, R*) (1 reply) V >I take issue with your statement that power changes hands in this V >country on a regular basis. The government is only an extremely small V >part of the power structure in this country. V > V >Much more important to true power in this country than the government V >is the corporate/industrial power elite. And that doesn't change very V >much at all. The military/industrial complex allows the government to V >change to give an illusion of change. The periodic change in our V >government is merely bread and circuses for the masses. When I look at someone like the just stepped down CEO of Intel, a holocaust survivor, or the Senior VP I just met with, an attractive blond with app 10,000 people reporting to her, I have trouble buying that. I don't deny that things have been bad, but they are definitely changing. V >ED>Compare the status of women, blacks, the poor, etc., as it was 100- V >ED>years ago with what it is today. None of this was accomplished by p V >ED>who believed the system was immovable. V > V > V >While no one can deny that the position of blacks and women are better V >than 150 years ago there is "glass ceiling" which keeps blacks and V >women out from positions of true power. And I believe that the V >concentration of wealth is as bad, if not worse, than it was 150 years V >ago. Did you ever read the description of the the reactions of the Soviet astronauts when they visited their American counterparts? They couldn't believe what the average American had at their fingertips. They were convinced they were on a guided tour. BTW - That guy you hate so bad for having too much wealth, Mr. Gates, was an almost poor geeky computer nerd not too long ago. Same for Jobs. V >ED>I think the problem we have today is that having given the vote to V >ED>virtually every man, woman and child in this country, we are discov V >ED>that most of them are well enough educated to run a soda machine, m V >ED>select their leadership. V > V >No, the true problem is that the rich and powerful want to keep all V >their power and prestige. Hmmmm...... I took a livery cab home one day, and the cab driver really believed that all of the rain was caused by men walking on the moon. He explained to me that the astronauts must have been given dope (his words) in order to deal with the fear of the flight. If that's the average American, maybe we should start forming a nobility and looking for a king. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Sunday, June 21, 1998 9:09pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746893 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746879, Reply to #746865, Reply to #746859, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>V >The other part of my reaction to Kkid's daughter majoring in psy V >ED>V >is that it is Kkid's DAUGHTER majoring in this area of study. S V >ED>V >work and clinical psychology are sterotypically female professio V >ED>V >gauls me that an obviously bright, intelligent young woman doesn V >ED>V >into one of the hard sciences or technology. Certainly if she w V >ED>V >daughter I would try to influence her to do so. V > V >ED>Clinical psychology? A stereotypical female profession? No more so V >ED>law. At least half the clinical shrinks I know of are male. V > V >And I would bet those clinical shrinks are psychiatrists, not V >psychologists or social workers. Clinical Social Work and clincial V >psychology are sterotypically female professions. Actually, I only know one psychiatrist, and yes, he is male. I think I know four classified as clinical shrinks, two male two female. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Sunday, June 21, 1998 9:15pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 746896 To: Vida Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746881, Reply to #746872, Reply to #746856, R*) (1 reply) VI>NI>VI>I>VI>I>VI>NI>ED>V >SC>VI>Although I am sure right now, with little Pat VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>V >SC>VI>probably quite large. :) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>V > VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>V >SC>She is , but she's still as gorgeous as ever. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>V >SC>--- VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>V > VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>V >That goes without saying! :) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>Was it Demi Moore who did that semi nude layout whil VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>I can understand why a women would be concerned, but VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>really look bad, especially one who is happy to be p VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>Must be the psychological impact on the woman. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Personally speaking, I look as good if not better right VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>7 months pregnant. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>I have no doubt you look better than ever. :) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Thank you, I also think so. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Hopefully I will be able to see for myself how beautiful you loo VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>couple of weeks. :) VI>NI>VI>NI>As long as it's doesn't rain. VI>NI>VI>From your mouth to G*d's ear! :) VI>NI>Tell me about it, if it isn't raining, it's hot & humid(YUK) VI>NI>--- VI>Well summer started offically at 10 AM this morning. So it's supposed VI>to hot and humid! :) Tell me about it, got sick yesterday due to the heat & humidy. Was supposed to go to a picnic today, started getting a headache & stayed home. And I still 2 1/2 months till the baby is born. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ If you're going to take a bribe, hold out for top dollar. Date: Sunday, June 21, 1998 9:15pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 746897 To: Vida Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746882, Reply to #746873, Reply to #746857, R*) (1 reply) VI>NI>VI>I>VI>I>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SC>VI>Although I am sure right now, with little VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SC>VI>probably quite large. :) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V > VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SC>She is , but she's still as gorgeous as eve VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SC>--- VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V > VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >That goes without saying! :) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>Was it Demi Moore who did that semi nude layout w VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Yup. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>I can understand why a women would be concerned, VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>really look bad, especially one who is happy to b VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>Must be the psychological impact on the woman. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>No, I think it's societal conditioning again. A pre VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>very well fit into a size 2 or 4 dress. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Any women who was a size 2 or 4 before she got pregnant VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>fit into the dresses after they had the baby(but by the VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>busy, I don't think she'll care) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Hey, I have some wonderful dressy clothes just for when VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>--- VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>A lot of them do care, believe me! I hear them moan and g VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Weight Watcher's meetings, when they turn up after the bab VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>True. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Meanwhile it's a little easier to lose weight after the baby VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>you eat right) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Or even if you haven't been pregnant. I don't EVEN want to go d VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>road. Things at work have really sucked lately and when I get u VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>eat a lot of junk food. Consequently, I have been eating out of VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>because of all the job related tension. VI>NI>VI>NI>I've been home since Feb., luckly I watch how much I eat because I VI>NI>VI>NI>really don't want to gain too much with Patrick(as of the last VI>NI>VI>NI>appointment, I had gained 19 lbs) VI>NI>VI>Do your best not to binge until Patrick is born. I am sure your docto VI>NI>VI>has told you that it is not too good to be too heavy when it is time t VI>NI>VI>give birth. VI>NI>Not really, he hasn't said anything about my weight. VI>NI>--- VI>Than you are probably doing just fine. If you had been putting on too VI>much weight I am sure the doctor would say something to you. True, last visit he said I was a little big(I think he meant the baby)I go for the wonderful sugar test tommorrow. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Yield to temptation..it may be your only chance! Date: Monday, June 22, 1998 6:58am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746902 To: Kkid Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746884, Reply to #746859, Reply to #746850, R*) KK>VI>The other part of my reaction to Kkid's daughter majoring in psychology KK>VI>is that it is Kkid's DAUGHTER majoring in this area of study. Social KK>VI>work and clinical psychology are sterotypically female professions. It KK>VI>gauls me that an obviously bright, intelligent young woman doesn't go KK>VI>into one of the hard sciences or technology. Certainly if she were my KK>VI>daughter I would try to influence her to do so. KK>I asked her again. She plans to major in physio psychology, whatever KK>that may mean :-) KK>At the infant center they are currently checking the eyes of infants and KK>then send the report to the pediatrician. They have this machine that KK>can actually tell you whether or not the infant is focusing properly. KK>Now don't ask me what this has to do with psych! :-) From your description I would gather that physio psychology probably has something to do with the intersection of physiology and psychology. It wouldn't surprise me if there may be some connection between serious mental illness and visual perception. So it may very well possible that the infants who don't focus properly when they become older develope serious mental illnesses. Or they may want to follow a group of infants to see if there is some such connection. In any event, it sure sounds like fascinating stuff to me. Date: Monday, June 22, 1998 7:00am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746903 To: Kkid Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746886, Reply to #746879, Reply to #746865, R*) KK>VI>ED>Clinical psychology? A stereotypical female profession? No more so tha KK>VI>ED>law. At least half the clinical shrinks I know of are male. KK>VI>And I would bet those clinical shrinks are psychiatrists, not KK>VI>psychologists or social workers. Clinical Social Work and clincial KK>VI>psychology are sterotypically female professions. KK>Not that there is anything wrong with clinical psych, but I definitly KK>recall saying that she was interested in the research aspects of KK>psychology. That was later on in the discussion. At first I had the impression that she was doing clinical psyhology. And you know how things go on AH. Now Editor and I are off on a tangent regarding our views of clinical psychology. :) Date: Monday, June 22, 1998 7:05am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746904 To: Editor Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746892, Reply to #746878, Reply to #746864, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >I take issue with your statement that power changes hands in this ED>V >country on a regular basis. The government is only an extremely small ED>V >part of the power structure in this country. ED>V > ED>V >Much more important to true power in this country than the government ED>V >is the corporate/industrial power elite. And that doesn't change very ED>V >much at all. The military/industrial complex allows the government to ED>V >change to give an illusion of change. The periodic change in our ED>V >government is merely bread and circuses for the masses. ED>When I look at someone like the just stepped down CEO of Intel, a holocaust ED>survivor, or the Senior VP I just met with, an attractive blond with app ED>10,000 people reporting to her, I have trouble buying that. I don't deny ED>that things have been bad, but they are definitely changing. The computer industry is a special case because it is so NEW. And females are very much in the minority even in the computer industry. ED>V >ED>Compare the status of women, blacks, the poor, etc., as it was 100- ED>V >ED>years ago with what it is today. None of this was accomplished by p ED>V >ED>who believed the system was immovable. ED>V > ED>V > ED>V >While no one can deny that the position of blacks and women are better ED>V >than 150 years ago there is "glass ceiling" which keeps blacks and ED>V >women out from positions of true power. And I believe that the ED>V >concentration of wealth is as bad, if not worse, than it was 150 years ED>V >ago. ED>Did you ever read the description of the the reactions of the Soviet ED>astronauts when they visited their American counterparts? They couldn't ED>believe what the average American had at their fingertips. They were ED>convinced they were on a guided tour. Do you think American astronauts are "average Americans"? Get real Jack! ED>BTW - That guy you hate so bad for having too much wealth, Mr. Gates, was ED>an almost poor geeky computer nerd not too long ago. Same for Jobs. Was Gates poor? Or just middle class? I don't know who Jobs is. ED>V >ED>I think the problem we have today is that having given the vote to ED>V >ED>virtually every man, woman and child in this country, we are discov ED>V >ED>that most of them are well enough educated to run a soda machine, m ED>V >ED>select their leadership. ED>V > ED>V >No, the true problem is that the rich and powerful want to keep all ED>V >their power and prestige. ED>Hmmmm...... I took a livery cab home one day, and the cab driver really ED>believed that all of the rain was caused by men walking on the moon. He ED>explained to me that the astronauts must have been given dope (his words) ED>in order to deal with the fear of the flight. If that's the average ED>American, maybe we should start forming a nobility and looking for a king. No cabbies are hardly average Americans! :) Date: Monday, June 22, 1998 7:09am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746905 To: Editor Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746893, Reply to #746879, Reply to #746865, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >ED>V >The other part of my reaction to Kkid's daughter majoring in psy ED>V >ED>V >is that it is Kkid's DAUGHTER majoring in this area of study. S ED>V >ED>V >work and clinical psychology are sterotypically female professio ED>V >ED>V >gauls me that an obviously bright, intelligent young woman doesn ED>V >ED>V >into one of the hard sciences or technology. Certainly if she w ED>V >ED>V >daughter I would try to influence her to do so. ED>V > ED>V >ED>Clinical psychology? A stereotypical female profession? No more so ED>V >ED>law. At least half the clinical shrinks I know of are male. ED>V > ED>V >And I would bet those clinical shrinks are psychiatrists, not ED>V >psychologists or social workers. Clinical Social Work and clincial ED>V >psychology are sterotypically female professions. ED>Actually, I only know one psychiatrist, and yes, he is male. I think I know ED>four classified as clinical shrinks, two male two female. "Shrink' is a lay person's term. They are either psychiatrists, psychologists and social workers. There is big difference between the three professions. Only psychiatrists are permitted to give out prescriptions, since psychiatrists are medical doctors. Psychologists and social workers are NOT medical doctors. Date: Monday, June 22, 1998 7:11am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746906 To: Nightbird Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746896, Reply to #746881, Reply to #746872, R*) (1 reply) NI>VI>NI>VI>I>VI>I>VI>NI>ED>V >SC>VI>Although I am sure right now, with little NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>V >SC>VI>probably quite large. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>V > NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>V >SC>She is , but she's still as gorgeous as eve NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>V >SC>--- NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>V > NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>V >That goes without saying! :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>Was it Demi Moore who did that semi nude layout w NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>I can understand why a women would be concerned, NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>really look bad, especially one who is happy to b NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>Must be the psychological impact on the woman. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Personally speaking, I look as good if not better ri NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>7 months pregnant. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>I have no doubt you look better than ever. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Thank you, I also think so. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Hopefully I will be able to see for myself how beautiful you NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>couple of weeks. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>As long as it's doesn't rain. NI>VI>NI>VI>From your mouth to G*d's ear! :) NI>VI>NI>Tell me about it, if it isn't raining, it's hot & humid(YUK) NI>VI>NI>--- NI>VI>Well summer started offically at 10 AM this morning. So it's supposed NI>VI>to hot and humid! :) NI>Tell me about it, got sick yesterday due to the heat & humidy. Was NI>supposed to go to a picnic today, started getting a headache & stayed NI>home. And I still 2 1/2 months till the baby is born. NI>--- Just hang in there and take it easy! Even though it sucks that you may have stay inside an air conditioned room for most of the summer think how happy you will (hopefully) be once you get to hold Patrick in your arms. :) Date: Monday, June 22, 1998 7:12am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746907 To: Nightbird Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746897, Reply to #746882, Reply to #746873, R*) (1 reply) NI>VI>NI>VI>I>VI>I>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SC>VI>Although I am sure right now, with litt NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SC>VI>probably quite large. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V > NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SC>She is , but she's still as gorgeous as NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >SC>--- NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V > NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>V >That goes without saying! :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>Was it Demi Moore who did that semi nude layou NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Yup. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>I can understand why a women would be concerne NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>really look bad, especially one who is happy t NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>Must be the psychological impact on the woman. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>No, I think it's societal conditioning again. A NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>very well fit into a size 2 or 4 dress. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Any women who was a size 2 or 4 before she got pregn NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>fit into the dresses after they had the baby(but by NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>busy, I don't think she'll care) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Hey, I have some wonderful dressy clothes just for w NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>--- NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>A lot of them do care, believe me! I hear them moan an NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Weight Watcher's meetings, when they turn up after the NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>True. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Meanwhile it's a little easier to lose weight after the ba NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>you eat right) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Or even if you haven't been pregnant. I don't EVEN want to g NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>road. Things at work have really sucked lately and when I ge NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>eat a lot of junk food. Consequently, I have been eating out NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>because of all the job related tension. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I've been home since Feb., luckly I watch how much I eat because NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>really don't want to gain too much with Patrick(as of the last NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>appointment, I had gained 19 lbs) NI>VI>NI>VI>Do your best not to binge until Patrick is born. I am sure your do NI>VI>NI>VI>has told you that it is not too good to be too heavy when it is tim NI>VI>NI>VI>give birth. NI>VI>NI>Not really, he hasn't said anything about my weight. NI>VI>NI>--- NI>VI>Than you are probably doing just fine. If you had been putting on too NI>VI>much weight I am sure the doctor would say something to you. NI>True, last visit he said I was a little big(I think he meant the baby)I NI>go for the wonderful sugar test tommorrow. NI>--- Good luck on that one! Date: Monday, June 22, 1998 7:24am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746909 To: ** ALL ** Re: The Truman Show Bob and I saw "The Truman Show" over the weekend and we both give it our thumbs up. I put this message in this sig rather than /Video because I think this movie is a very good commentary on our current society. So I hope the sysops keep this message and this thread in this sig. As most of you probably realize the basic plot set up of "The Truman Show" is that Jim Carrey plays Truman Burbank, the only non actor in a TV show based upon his life. Truman has spent his entire life in an artifically controlled artifical world. This movie raises all sorts of interesting questions, especially for those of us who have spent some time in the cyber world. Ie., what is real and what is fake? I also particularly liked the way this movie lampooned our consumer culture--ie., clever placements of ads for "products" that are pitched on the TV show that is the subject of this movie. Date: Monday, June 22, 1998 11:19am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Steve Flur Msg#: 746911 To: Vida Re: HIV support group (Reply to #746861, Reply to #746852) (1 reply) VI>ED>Got this from an acquaintance of mine. The source is one I consider VI>ED>reliable. VI>ED>------------------------------- VI>ED>A few months ago, a group of folks decided to start a new, Internet/Usene VI>ED>moderated discussion group, "soc.support.aids-hiv+". The moderators of th VI>ED>new group would filter out the spam, hate, and venom that appears in VI>ED>another currently existing group. The only other group on the subject is VI>ED>primarily scientifically- and not support-oriented. VI>ED>To start this new newsgroup, the proponents fulfilled the requirement of VI>ED>issuing a proposal with open debate. They now need to have a vote. THIS I VI>ED>WHERE YOUR HELP IS NEEDED-- I AM ASKING YOU TO PLEASE VOTE ON THIS ISSUE. VI>ED>A YES vote would support the creation of this moderated HIV/AIDS support VI>ED>group. A NO vote opposes the creation of the group. Please read the ballo VI>ED>*before* you vote. It is important that you understand what exactly what VI>ED>being proposed. If you have any questions, you may ask the proponents VI>ED>listed in the proposal. VI>ED>How to Vote: Voting takes just a few minutes VI>ED>Steps: VI>ED>1. Obtain an official *Call for Votes (CFV) and Ballot* VI>ED>2. Follow the instructions on the ballot VI>ED>3. Email it to the address listed on the ballot VI>ED>Three ways to obtain an official *Call for Votes (CFV) and Ballot* VI>ED>1. It appears in the Usenet newsgroup news:news.announce.newgroups VI>ED>2. Get it on the web with your web browser, at: VI>ED>ftp://ftp.isc.org/pub/usenet/news.announce.newgroups/soc/soc.support.aids VI>ED>i VI>ED>v+ VI>ED>(you may need to cut-n-paste. Use "ftp" instead of the usual "http" ) VI>ED>3. Email the votetaker: If either of the above methods fail, you can emai VI>ED>the votetaker and ask him for a "Call for Votes" (which contains a ballot VI>ED>The address is cfv-request@uvv.stanford.edu. Say in the subject line: VI>ED>"ssah+" (leave out the quotes) VI>ED>Notes: VI>ED>- You can only have one vote per person, and one vote per email address. VI>ED>- Voting rules prohibit emailing ballots or copies or the CFVs. If you do VI>ED>this, your vote will be invalidated. VI>ED>Thanks! VI>HMMM. If this is genuine than obviously I would encourage all to go out VI>and vote YES. But I still have some questions as to whether it is real. VI>I am on a lot of g/l/b e mail lists and don't remember every seeing VI>anything on this. Of course I have a tendency to delete rather than VI>read but I think this would have caught my eye and that I would have VI>read this. Steve, do you have any information if this is real? I have none either way, so why not do since this will not hurt anyone...correct? Date: Monday, June 22, 1998 7:01pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 746919 To: Vida Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746906, Reply to #746896, Reply to #746881, R*) (1 reply) VI>NI>VI>NI>Tell me about it, if it isn't raining, it's hot & humid(YUK) VI>NI>VI>NI>--- VI>NI>VI>Well summer started offically at 10 AM this morning. So it's supposed VI>NI>VI>to hot and humid! :) VI>NI>Tell me about it, got sick yesterday due to the heat & humidy. Was VI>NI>supposed to go to a picnic today, started getting a headache & stayed VI>NI>home. And I still 2 1/2 months till the baby is born. VI>NI>--- VI>Just hang in there and take it easy! Even though it sucks that you may VI>have stay inside an air conditioned room for most of the summer think VI>how happy you will (hopefully) be once you get to hold Patrick in your VI>arms. :) I know, I told my doc about it & he said part of it is the heat but he also said my gall blatter may be part of the problem so I have to watch what I eat. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Cats, the paragon of ADD. Date: Monday, June 22, 1998 7:01pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 746920 To: Vida Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746907, Reply to #746897, Reply to #746882, R*) (1 reply) VI>NI>VI>NI>Not really, he hasn't said anything about my weight. VI>NI>VI>NI>--- VI>NI>VI>Than you are probably doing just fine. If you had been putting on too VI>NI>VI>much weight I am sure the doctor would say something to you. VI>NI>True, last visit he said I was a little big(I think he meant the baby)I VI>NI>go for the wonderful sugar test tommorrow. VI>NI>--- VI>Good luck on that one! Well, went today, I gained 3 more lbs so I'm up to 22 lbs. The sugar test wasn't that bad. I have to do for another sonogram next Tuesday to size the baby(I'm measuring a little big, I'm 28 wks & the baby is measuring 33 cms) --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Why 9 out of 10 Eskimos wash in Tide? Too cold out-tide!! Date: Wednesday, June 24, 1998 6:10am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746922 To: Steve Flur Re: HIV support group (Reply to #746911, Reply to #746861, Reply to #746852) (3 replies) SF>VI>ED>Got this from an acquaintance of mine. The source is one I consider SF>VI>ED>reliable. SF>VI>ED>------------------------------- SF>VI>ED>A few months ago, a group of folks decided to start a new, Internet/Us SF>VI>ED>moderated discussion group, "soc.support.aids-hiv+". The moderators of SF>VI>ED>new group would filter out the spam, hate, and venom that appears in SF>VI>ED>another currently existing group. The only other group on the subject SF>VI>ED>primarily scientifically- and not support-oriented. SF>VI>ED>To start this new newsgroup, the proponents fulfilled the requirement SF>VI>ED>issuing a proposal with open debate. They now need to have a vote. THI SF>VI>ED>WHERE YOUR HELP IS NEEDED-- I AM ASKING YOU TO PLEASE VOTE ON THIS ISS SF>VI>ED>A YES vote would support the creation of this moderated HIV/AIDS suppo SF>VI>ED>group. A NO vote opposes the creation of the group. Please read the ba SF>VI>ED>*before* you vote. It is important that you understand what exactly wh SF>VI>ED>being proposed. If you have any questions, you may ask the proponents SF>VI>ED>listed in the proposal. SF>VI>ED>How to Vote: Voting takes just a few minutes SF>VI>ED>Steps: SF>VI>ED>1. Obtain an official *Call for Votes (CFV) and Ballot* SF>VI>ED>2. Follow the instructions on the ballot SF>VI>ED>3. Email it to the address listed on the ballot SF>VI>ED>Three ways to obtain an official *Call for Votes (CFV) and Ballot* SF>VI>ED>1. It appears in the Usenet newsgroup news:news.announce.newgroups SF>VI>ED>2. Get it on the web with your web browser, at: SF>VI>ED>ftp://ftp.isc.org/pub/usenet/news.announce.newgroups/soc/soc.support.a SF>VI>ED>i SF>VI>ED>v+ SF>VI>ED>(you may need to cut-n-paste. Use "ftp" instead of the usual "http" ) SF>VI>ED>3. Email the votetaker: If either of the above methods fail, you can e SF>VI>ED>the votetaker and ask him for a "Call for Votes" (which contains a bal SF>VI>ED>The address is cfv-request@uvv.stanford.edu. Say in the subject line: SF>VI>ED>"ssah+" (leave out the quotes) SF>VI>ED>Notes: SF>VI>ED>- You can only have one vote per person, and one vote per email addres SF>VI>ED>- Voting rules prohibit emailing ballots or copies or the CFVs. If you SF>VI>ED>this, your vote will be invalidated. SF>VI>ED>Thanks! SF>VI>HMMM. If this is genuine than obviously I would encourage all to go out SF>VI>and vote YES. But I still have some questions as to whether it is real. SF>VI>I am on a lot of g/l/b e mail lists and don't remember every seeing SF>VI>anything on this. Of course I have a tendency to delete rather than SF>VI>read but I think this would have caught my eye and that I would have SF>VI>read this. Steve, do you have any information if this is real? SF>I have none either way, so why not do since this will not hurt SF>anyone...correct? Unless someone I trust could verify this I would not vote. Theer is always a possiblity that this is some kind of scam or that the receiving end is a spam e mail marketer. Date: Wednesday, June 24, 1998 6:13am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746923 To: Nightbird Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746919, Reply to #746906, Reply to #746896, R*) (2 replies) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Tell me about it, if it isn't raining, it's hot & humid(YUK) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>--- NI>VI>NI>VI>Well summer started offically at 10 AM this morning. So it's suppo NI>VI>NI>VI>to hot and humid! :) NI>VI>NI>Tell me about it, got sick yesterday due to the heat & humidy. Was NI>VI>NI>supposed to go to a picnic today, started getting a headache & stayed NI>VI>NI>home. And I still 2 1/2 months till the baby is born. NI>VI>NI>--- NI>VI>Just hang in there and take it easy! Even though it sucks that you may NI>VI>have stay inside an air conditioned room for most of the summer think NI>VI>how happy you will (hopefully) be once you get to hold Patrick in your NI>VI>arms. :) NI>I know, I told my doc about it & he said part of it is the heat but he NI>also said my gall blatter may be part of the problem so I have to watch NI>what I eat. NI>--- Be careful with that gall blatter stuff! Bob had to have his gall blatter removed several years ago. Before the operation was performed he was told by his (female) doctor that the pain he had felt when he had gall blatter attacks were almost as painful as the pain a woman goes through when she gives birth. Date: Wednesday, June 24, 1998 6:16am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746924 To: Nightbird Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746920, Reply to #746907, Reply to #746897, R*) (1 reply) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Not really, he hasn't said anything about my weight. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>--- NI>VI>NI>VI>Than you are probably doing just fine. If you had been putting on NI>VI>NI>VI>much weight I am sure the doctor would say something to you. NI>VI>NI>True, last visit he said I was a little big(I think he meant the baby) NI>VI>NI>go for the wonderful sugar test tommorrow. NI>VI>NI>--- NI>VI>Good luck on that one! NI>Well, went today, I gained 3 more lbs so I'm up to 22 lbs. The sugar NI>test wasn't that bad. I have to do for another sonogram next Tuesday to NI>size the baby(I'm measuring a little big, I'm 28 wks & the baby is NI>measuring 33 cms) NI>--- Try not to fret too much over it because you will only make yourself crazy. Do the best you can do to eat a sensible diet and to follow the doctor's instructions. Other than that, all you can do is pray! Date: Wednesday, June 24, 1998 10:31am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Steve Flur Msg#: 746927 To: Vida Re: HIV support group (Reply to #746922, Reply to #746911, Reply to #746861, R*) VI>SF>VI>ED>Got this from an acquaintance of mine. The source is one I consider VI>SF>VI>ED>reliable. VI>SF>VI>ED>------------------------------- VI>SF>VI>ED>A few months ago, a group of folks decided to start a new, Internet VI>SF>VI>ED>moderated discussion group, "soc.support.aids-hiv+". The moderators VI>SF>VI>ED>new group would filter out the spam, hate, and venom that appears i VI>SF>VI>ED>another currently existing group. The only other group on the subje VI>SF>VI>ED>primarily scientifically- and not support-oriented. VI>SF>VI>ED>To start this new newsgroup, the proponents fulfilled the requireme VI>SF>VI>ED>issuing a proposal with open debate. They now need to have a vote. VI>SF>VI>ED>WHERE YOUR HELP IS NEEDED-- I AM ASKING YOU TO PLEASE VOTE ON THIS VI>SF>VI>ED>A YES vote would support the creation of this moderated HIV/AIDS su VI>SF>VI>ED>group. A NO vote opposes the creation of the group. Please read the VI>SF>VI>ED>*before* you vote. It is important that you understand what exactly VI>SF>VI>ED>being proposed. If you have any questions, you may ask the proponen VI>SF>VI>ED>listed in the proposal. VI>SF>VI>ED>How to Vote: Voting takes just a few minutes VI>SF>VI>ED>Steps: VI>SF>VI>ED>1. Obtain an official *Call for Votes (CFV) and Ballot* VI>SF>VI>ED>2. Follow the instructions on the ballot VI>SF>VI>ED>3. Email it to the address listed on the ballot VI>SF>VI>ED>Three ways to obtain an official *Call for Votes (CFV) and Ballot* VI>SF>VI>ED>1. It appears in the Usenet newsgroup news:news.announce.newgroups VI>SF>VI>ED>2. Get it on the web with your web browser, at: VI>SF>VI>ED>ftp://ftp.isc.org/pub/usenet/news.announce.newgroups/soc/soc.suppor VI>SF>VI>ED>i VI>SF>VI>ED>v+ VI>SF>VI>ED>(you may need to cut-n-paste. Use "ftp" instead of the usual "http" VI>SF>VI>ED>3. Email the votetaker: If either of the above methods fail, you ca VI>SF>VI>ED>the votetaker and ask him for a "Call for Votes" (which contains a VI>SF>VI>ED>The address is cfv-request@uvv.stanford.edu. Say in the subject lin VI>SF>VI>ED>"ssah+" (leave out the quotes) VI>SF>VI>ED>Notes: VI>SF>VI>ED>- You can only have one vote per person, and one vote per email add VI>SF>VI>ED>- Voting rules prohibit emailing ballots or copies or the CFVs. If VI>SF>VI>ED>this, your vote will be invalidated. VI>SF>VI>ED>Thanks! VI>SF>VI>HMMM. If this is genuine than obviously I would encourage all to go o VI>SF>VI>and vote YES. But I still have some questions as to whether it is rea VI>SF>VI>I am on a lot of g/l/b e mail lists and don't remember every seeing VI>SF>VI>anything on this. Of course I have a tendency to delete rather than VI>SF>VI>read but I think this would have caught my eye and that I would have VI>SF>VI>read this. Steve, do you have any information if this is real? VI>SF>I have none either way, so why not do since this will not hurt VI>SF>anyone...correct? VI>Unless someone I trust could verify this I would not vote. Theer is VI>always a possiblity that this is some kind of scam or that the VI>receiving end is a spam e mail marketer. My insticts do not feel its spam. Date: Wednesday, June 24, 1998 10:49am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 746930 To: Vida Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746923, Reply to #746919, Reply to #746906, R*) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Tell me about it, if it isn't raining, it's hot & humid(YUK) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>--- VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Well summer started offically at 10 AM this morning. So it's su VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>to hot and humid! :) VI>NI>VI>NI>Tell me about it, got sick yesterday due to the heat & humidy. Was VI>NI>VI>NI>supposed to go to a picnic today, started getting a headache & stay VI>NI>VI>NI>home. And I still 2 1/2 months till the baby is born. VI>NI>VI>NI>--- VI>NI>VI>Just hang in there and take it easy! Even though it sucks that you ma VI>NI>VI>have stay inside an air conditioned room for most of the summer think VI>NI>VI>how happy you will (hopefully) be once you get to hold Patrick in your VI>NI>VI>arms. :) VI>NI>I know, I told my doc about it & he said part of it is the heat but he VI>NI>also said my gall blatter may be part of the problem so I have to watch VI>NI>what I eat. VI>NI>--- VI>Be careful with that gall blatter stuff! VI>Bob had to have his gall blatter removed several years ago. Before the VI>operation was performed he was told by his (female) doctor that the VI>pain he had felt when he had gall blatter attacks were almost as VI>painful as the pain a woman goes through when she gives birth. Thanks for letting me know. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ The 4 food groups: Fast, Frozen, Instant, and Microwave. Date: Wednesday, June 24, 1998 10:49am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 746931 To: Vida Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746924, Reply to #746920, Reply to #746907, R*) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Not really, he hasn't said anything about my weight. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>--- VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Than you are probably doing just fine. If you had been putting VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>much weight I am sure the doctor would say something to you. VI>NI>VI>NI>True, last visit he said I was a little big(I think he meant the ba VI>NI>VI>NI>go for the wonderful sugar test tommorrow. VI>NI>VI>NI>--- VI>NI>VI>Good luck on that one! VI>NI>Well, went today, I gained 3 more lbs so I'm up to 22 lbs. The sugar VI>NI>test wasn't that bad. I have to do for another sonogram next Tuesday to VI>NI>size the baby(I'm measuring a little big, I'm 28 wks & the baby is VI>NI>measuring 33 cms) VI>NI>--- VI>Try not to fret too much over it because you will only make yourself VI>crazy. Do the best you can do to eat a sensible diet and to follow the VI>doctor's instructions. Other than that, all you can do is pray! I'm not going to fret too much because there's nothing I can do about it. Be interesting to see what the sonogram saids about the size of the baby. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Achilles, dipped in the River Stynx, became intolerable. Date: Wednesday, June 24, 1998 3:04pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746935 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746904, Reply to #746892, Reply to #746878, R*) V >ED>When I look at someone like the just stepped down CEO of Intel, a h V >ED>survivor, or the Senior VP I just met with, an attractive blond wit V >ED>10,000 people reporting to her, I have trouble buying that. I don't V >ED>that things have been bad, but they are definitely changing. V > V >The computer industry is a special case because it is so NEW. And V >females are very much in the minority even in the computer industry. Vida... I don't doubt you word, but where the heck do you hang out? One of the first jobs I did professionally, over 30 years ago, at Standard and Poors, the mix between male and female, at all level, was fairly even. V >ED>Hmmmm...... I took a livery cab home one day, and the cab driver re V >ED>believed that all of the rain was caused by men walking on the moon V >ED>explained to me that the astronauts must have been given dope (his V >ED>in order to deal with the fear of the flight. If that's the average V >ED>American, maybe we should start forming a nobility and looking for V > V >No cabbies are hardly average Americans! :) Oh, then who is the average american? Not you or me, that's for sure. The cab driver is a damned sight closer to "average" than either of us. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Wednesday, June 24, 1998 3:04pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746936 To: Vida Re: The End of CUNY (Reply to #746905, Reply to #746893, Reply to #746879, R*) V >ED>Actually, I only know one psychiatrist, and yes, he is male. I thin V >ED>four classified as clinical shrinks, two male two female. V > V >"Shrink' is a lay person's term. They are either psychiatrists, V >psychologists and social workers. V > V >There is big difference between the three professions. Only V >psychiatrists are permitted to give out prescriptions, since V >psychiatrists are medical doctors. Psychologists and social workers V >are NOT medical doctors. OK... so I know one male psychiatrist, four psychologists (full time therapists if you prefer), two male, two female. I didn't include social workers in the mix. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Wednesday, June 24, 1998 3:04pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746937 To: Vida Re: HIV support group (Reply to #746922, Reply to #746911, Reply to #746861, R*) V >SF>VI>HMMM. If this is genuine than obviously I would encourage all t V >SF>VI>and vote YES. But I still have some questions as to whether it V >SF>VI>I am on a lot of g/l/b e mail lists and don't remember every see V >SF>VI>anything on this. Of course I have a tendency to delete rather V >SF>VI>read but I think this would have caught my eye and that I would V >SF>VI>read this. Steve, do you have any information if this is real? V >SF>I have none either way, so why not do since this will not hurt V >SF>anyone...correct? V > V >Unless someone I trust could verify this I would not vote. Theer is V >always a possiblity that this is some kind of scam or that the V >receiving end is a spam e mail marketer. Well... as I said, it was from a source I trust. He's someone I originally met in a Jewish humor group. When some moronic heavy metal asshole started flooding the group with antisemitism (and worse), we led the charge together. He is former JDL, and now seems like a pretty good guy. He designs web sites, primarily for non-profit organizations. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Wednesday, June 24, 1998 3:04pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746938 To: Vida Re: Women's body image (Reply to #746923, Reply to #746919, Reply to #746906, R*) V >Be careful with that gall blatter stuff! V > V >Bob had to have his gall blatter removed several years ago. Before the V >operation was performed he was told by his (female) doctor that the V >pain he had felt when he had gall blatter attacks were almost as V >painful as the pain a woman goes through when she gives birth. Now that's odd. I had mine removed back in the 70s. That hurt big time, and it went on for days afterwards. In all honesty, having watched some number of births, I couldn't equate those two. Fortunately, medicine has advanced to the point where many gall bladder problems can be handled laproscoptically, and avoid big incision mess I went through. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Wednesday, June 24, 1998 3:04pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 746939 To: Vida Re: HIV support group (Reply to #746922, Reply to #746911, Reply to #746861, R*) (1 reply) V >SF>VI>HMMM. If this is genuine than obviously I would encourage all t V >SF>VI>and vote YES. But I still have some questions as to whether it V >SF>VI>I am on a lot of g/l/b e mail lists and don't remember every see V >SF>VI>anything on this. Of course I have a tendency to delete rather V >SF>VI>read but I think this would have caught my eye and that I would V >SF>VI>read this. Steve, do you have any information if this is real? V >SF>I have none either way, so why not do since this will not hurt V >SF>anyone...correct? V > V >Unless someone I trust could verify this I would not vote. Theer is V >always a possiblity that this is some kind of scam or that the V >receiving end is a spam e mail marketer. Well, that would happen whether or not its genuine. Those votes are publicly tallied at the end. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Thursday, June 25, 1998 12:36am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 746941 To: Editor Re: HIV support group (Reply to #746939, Reply to #746922, Reply to #746911, R*) ED>V >SF>VI>HMMM. If this is genuine than obviously I would encourage all t ED>V >SF>VI>and vote YES. But I still have some questions as to whether it ED>V >SF>VI>I am on a lot of g/l/b e mail lists and don't remember every see ED>V >SF>VI>anything on this. Of course I have a tendency to delete rather ED>V >SF>VI>read but I think this would have caught my eye and that I would ED>V >SF>VI>read this. Steve, do you have any information if this is real? ED>V >SF>I have none either way, so why not do since this will not hurt ED>V >SF>anyone...correct? ED>V > ED>V >Unless someone I trust could verify this I would not vote. Theer is ED>V >always a possiblity that this is some kind of scam or that the ED>V >receiving end is a spam e mail marketer. ED>Well, that would happen whether or not its genuine. Those votes are ED>publicly tallied at the end. ED>--- ED> þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy True enough. But the chances of abuse are higher I believe where the source is questionable. Date: Sunday, July 12, 1998 10:09am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747103 To: ** ALL ** Re: ISP ordered to reveal names Take this story as a warning folks! ISPs ordered to reveal user names By Jim Hu Staff Writer, CNET NEWS.COM July 10, 1998, 7:15 p.m. PT Internet service providers including America Online, CompuServe, and PSINet have been served with court orders that could force them to reveal the names of members who posted messages online that allegedly disparaged Canadian waste recycling firm Philip Services Corporation. Though the court orders have already been issued, they have to be served through a U.S. court before the companies must comply. Canadian ISP Weslink Datalink has already revealed the real names of some of its members after a court order was issued by Judge Nicholas Borokovich of the Ontario Court's General Division in Hamilton, the Globe and Mail reported. Philip claimed that a number of individuals were making malicious attacks against its employees on a Yahoo message board, including threats of stalking and violence, ethnic slurs, and sexually harassing statements. In June, a subpoena was issued to Yahoo on behalf of the Hamilton, Ontario-based company to obtain the ISP addresses of the harassers, said Philip spokeswoman Linda Kuhn. Philip then went to a local court to obtain the court orders to track down on the individuals via the ISPs. Yahoo has since removed the more defamatory messages from the boards, saying they violated the boards' terms and conditions agreement, Kuhn said. Kuhn also added that Yahoo did not provide the names of the email subscribers, but provided the IP addresses after the subpoena was served. The IP address would enable Philip to find the ISP from which the message originated. "Our singular and primary interest is stopping the defamation," said Kuhn. "This has nothing to with criticism of the company. There are over 2,300 messages on the board and most of them [are] related to the company's affairs and [contain] a lot of criticism, and that's all a part of civil liberties and freedom of speech. And those kinds of messages are not in any way involved in this action." The issuance of the court orders underscores the fact that the Net has evolved from a once free-wheeling environment to a more mainstream medium where users are held accountable for their actions. For example, a California man was convicted in February of federal civil rights violations for sending a threatening email message to Asian students at the University of California at Irvine. The man claimed during the trial that the messages were intended as a joke. It also illustrates that the Net no longer a haven for people who want to express their opinions anonymously. "It underscores the issue which is, to what extent do people have the ability and right to communicate anonymously on the Internet, and is that right gonna come into conflict with attempts such as in Canada to identify people who have said things that other people don't like?" said David Sobel of the Electronic Privacy Information Center. "I think we're going to see a lot more of these cases, and we will sooner rather than later need to start establishing rules." (Portions ommitted by Vida) "It will be a wake-up call for a lot of people because they think they are protected and can masquerade under an anonymous address on the Net and say things that are potentially libelous," Broadhead said. On the flip side, some say the interest of privacy on the Internet shouldn't prevent libel victims from protecting their own rights. "In a sense it's private," said Alan Gahtan, an attorney at Bennett Jones Verchere. "But if someone's making defamatory statements, that's breaching someone's rights. You have to weigh what's the greater evil." AOL is no stranger to the free speech vs. defamation debate. Last month, for example, AOL removed a site critical of Islam after scholars at al-Azhar University in Cairo protested. AOL said the site had violated its terms of service, which prohibit the posting of defamatory or injurious material. Though AOL did not reveal the identity of the user who posted the anti-Islam site, a legal action such as Philip's would be grounds for the company to comply. AOL spokeswoman Tricia Primrose said the court order had not been served yet to its Dulles, Virginia-based headquarters. However, its usual policy is to alert subscribers so they could react, and then release the names within ten days, she said. (Reminder ommitted by Vida) Date: Tuesday, August 4, 1998 6:58am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747322 To: ** ALL ** Re: Pieces of my childhood have died (1 reply) First the news was that Buffalo Bob Smith had died. Now I hear this morning that Sherry Lewis is dead. Howdy Doddy and Lamb Chop dying in one week? It's almost too much to bear! Date: Tuesday, August 4, 1998 1:53pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 747324 To: Vida Re: Pieces of my childhood have died (Reply to #747322) (1 reply) VI>First the news was that Buffalo Bob Smith had died. Now I hear this VI>morning that Sherry Lewis is dead. Howdy Doddy and Lamb Chop dying in VI>one week? It's almost too much to bear! Personally, I'm a little too young to remember Buffalo Bob but I did grow up with lambchop, it's really sad to see them go. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ The Truth is out there (but I'm stuck here). Date: Wednesday, August 5, 1998 6:24am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747334 To: Nightbird Re: Pieces of my childhood have died (Reply to #747324, Reply to #747322) (1 reply) NI>VI>First the news was that Buffalo Bob Smith had died. Now I hear this NI>VI>morning that Sherry Lewis is dead. Howdy Doddy and Lamb Chop dying in NI>VI>one week? It's almost too much to bear! NI>Personally, I'm a little too young to remember Buffalo Bob but I did NI>grow up with lambchop, it's really sad to see them go. Ah, youth. :) Date: Wednesday, August 5, 1998 12:11pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 747336 To: Vida Re: Pieces of my childhood have died (Reply to #747334, Reply to #747324, Reply to #747322) VI>NI>VI>First the news was that Buffalo Bob Smith had died. Now I hear this VI>NI>VI>morning that Sherry Lewis is dead. Howdy Doddy and Lamb Chop dying in VI>NI>VI>one week? It's almost too much to bear! VI>NI>Personally, I'm a little too young to remember Buffalo Bob but I did VI>NI>grow up with lambchop, it's really sad to see them go. VI>Ah, youth. :) ROTFLMAO!!! --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Me, indecisive? I'm not so sure about that. Date: Wednesday, August 19, 1998 9:22am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 747379 To: ** ALL ** Re: Our wonderful president (2 replies) Wow! This is great. This is about the only place on our planet that has no discussion regarding the president's admission :-) Date: Wednesday, August 19, 1998 11:57am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 747381 To: Kkid Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747379) (3 replies) KK>Wow! KK>This is great. KK>This is about the only place on our planet that has no discussion KK>regarding the president's admission :-) That's only because no body seems to be around. Personally, I think he should have come out a while ago with the admission of guilt instead to waiting soooo long. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Diagonally parked in a parallel universe. Date: Thursday, August 20, 1998 9:04am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747383 To: Kkid Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747379) K >Wow! K >This is great. K >This is about the only place on our planet that has no discussion K >regarding the president's admission :-) K > You spelled that wrong. I think you meant emission. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Thursday, August 20, 1998 9:05am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747384 To: Nightbird Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747381, Reply to #747379) (2 replies) N >KK>Wow! N >KK>This is great. N >KK>This is about the only place on our planet that has no discussion N >KK>regarding the president's admission :-) N > N >That's only because no body seems to be around. N > N >Personally, I think he should have come out a while ago with the N >admission of guilt instead to waiting soooo long. In the words of a long time friend of mine, who comes from the diametrically opposite side of the political spectrum, this is only the second time in his life he has been embarrassed to be an American. The Lewinsky episode is (IMO) a fairly minor thing beyond the fact the it highlights how the Clintons, the current administration and the political establishment we have elected consider themselves the aristorcracy and beyond the law. Had any CEO in any other company in the US pulled that stunt, that person would be long gone and facing a ton of lawsuits. Clinton on the other hand, gets pissed off that people invade his private life. Now that's chutzpah. If he can attract intelligent 20 year olds, and his wife puts up with it, I say more power to him. But I do wish he'd keep it out of the oval office and out of business hours when I'm paying him a ton of money to take care of my interests. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Thursday, August 20, 1998 10:30am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 747386 To: Editor Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747384, Reply to #747381, Reply to #747379) (2 replies) ED>Had any CEO in any other company in the US pulled that stunt, that person ED>would be long gone and facing a ton of lawsuits. Clinton on the other hand, ED>gets pissed off that people invade his private life. Now that's chutzpah. ED>If he can attract intelligent 20 year olds, and his wife puts up with it, I ED>say more power to him. But I do wish he'd keep it out of the oval office ED>and out of business hours when I'm paying him a ton of money to take care ED>of my interests. True, I personally think the man has a major problem & should keep his pants on(and his zipper zipped) If it were anyone else, they would be out of a job & totally ruined. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ "I cut them off with my carving knife," she detailed. Date: Thursday, August 20, 1998 4:47pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747388 To: Nightbird Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747386, Reply to #747384, Reply to #747381, R*) (1 reply) N >ED>Had any CEO in any other company in the US pulled that stunt, that N >ED>would be long gone and facing a ton of lawsuits. Clinton on the oth N >ED>gets pissed off that people invade his private life. Now that's chu N >ED>If he can attract intelligent 20 year olds, and his wife puts up wi N >ED>say more power to him. But I do wish he'd keep it out of the oval o N >ED>and out of business hours when I'm paying him a ton of money to tak N >ED>of my interests. N > N >True, I personally think the man has a major problem & should keep his N >pants on(and his zipper zipped) N > N >If it were anyone else, they would be out of a job & totally ruined. Honestly, I try to not sit in judgement, the world is too complicated. We are each individuals, and it takes different things to make us go and allow us to function. But the man is supposed to be doing a job, a tough job, and a job that he wanted. He is being paid extraordinarily well for it. In addition to a good salary, just consider what your finances would be like if you didn't have to pay for room, board, health insurance, etc. for 8 years! Alot of people would kill for a job like that. But the job also carries with it "head of state" functions as opposed to CEO functions. As "head of state", he is the symbolic representation of our country. People look at him and see you and me. But in the end, I can accept quite a bit of odd behaviour from an executive in that position. I have been in the seat where the buck stops, and its a lousy place to be. You can't win, only lose. But underlying this is something that goes way beyond playing with an intern less than half his age. It was that pissed off speech that told it all. He really thinks he is above the law. Way beyond what Nixon did. He is PUBLICLY saying that the rules don't apply to him. He actually trotted out a variation of the same lame "no controlling legal authority" jive. "If I don't get caught it ain't wrong." That sucks. I've actually reached the point where I wouldn't consider Al Gore reason enough to leave this guy in office. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Friday, August 21, 1998 1:25pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 747392 To: Editor Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747388, Reply to #747386, Reply to #747384, R*) (2 replies) ED>N >ED>Had any CEO in any other company in the US pulled that stunt, that ED>N >ED>would be long gone and facing a ton of lawsuits. Clinton on the oth ED>N >ED>gets pissed off that people invade his private life. Now that's chu ED>N >ED>If he can attract intelligent 20 year olds, and his wife puts up wi ED>N >ED>say more power to him. But I do wish he'd keep it out of the oval o ED>N >ED>and out of business hours when I'm paying him a ton of money to tak ED>N >ED>of my interests. ED>N > ED>N >True, I personally think the man has a major problem & should keep his ED>N >pants on(and his zipper zipped) ED>N > ED>N >If it were anyone else, they would be out of a job & totally ruined. ED>Honestly, I try to not sit in judgement, the world is too complicated. We ED>are each individuals, and it takes different things to make us go and allow ED>us to function. But the man is supposed to be doing a job, a tough job, and ED>a job that he wanted. He is being paid extraordinarily well for it. In ED>addition to a good salary, just consider what your finances would be like ED>if you didn't have to pay for room, board, health insurance, etc. for 8 ED>years! Alot of people would kill for a job like that. But the job also ED>carries with it "head of state" functions as opposed to CEO functions. As ED>"head of state", he is the symbolic representation of our country. People ED>look at him and see you and me. Don't get me wrong, but I'm getting to the point that I really wish public people were allowed to have private lives. I truly think the whole thing has been blown out of proportion. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ What if Kuwait's main export had been broccoli? - Tom S. Date: Saturday, August 22, 1998 12:29pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747395 To: Nightbird Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747392, Reply to #747388, Reply to #747386, R*) (2 replies) N >ED>Honestly, I try to not sit in judgement, the world is too complicat N >ED>are each individuals, and it takes different things to make us go a N >ED>us to function. But the man is supposed to be doing a job, a tough N >ED>a job that he wanted. He is being paid extraordinarily well for it. N >ED>addition to a good salary, just consider what your finances would b N >ED>if you didn't have to pay for room, board, health insurance, etc. f N >ED>years! Alot of people would kill for a job like that. But the job a N >ED>carries with it "head of state" functions as opposed to CEO functio N >ED>"head of state", he is the symbolic representation of our country. N >ED>look at him and see you and me. N > N > N >Don't get me wrong, but I'm getting to the point that I really wish N >public people were allowed to have private lives. I truly think the N >whole thing has been blown out of proportion. Except that they got where they were by being public property. I really snicker when a Hollywood type complains about lack of privacy, when in fact they have been culling that same publicity for years and making a fortune off of it. Lets remember that what gets most "public people" into governmental positions nowadays is their persona, not their skills. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Sunday, August 23, 1998 12:19pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747397 To: Nightbird Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747381, Reply to #747379) (1 reply) NI>KK>Wow! NI>KK>This is great. NI>KK>This is about the only place on our planet that has no discussion NI>KK>regarding the president's admission :-) NI>That's only because no body seems to be around. NI>Personally, I think he should have come out a while ago with the NI>admission of guilt instead to waiting soooo long. NI>--- Well I can say that I just got back from a week in Montreal with Bob. Personally the whole thing is just so-oo boring. That this country has gotten itself whipped up in a tizzy over the fact that our Pres had an affair just shows how adolescent we all still all. Date: Sunday, August 23, 1998 12:22pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747398 To: Editor Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747384, Reply to #747381, Reply to #747379) (1 reply) ED>N >KK>Wow! ED>N >KK>This is great. ED>N >KK>This is about the only place on our planet that has no discussion ED>N >KK>regarding the president's admission :-) ED>N > ED>N >That's only because no body seems to be around. ED>N > ED>N >Personally, I think he should have come out a while ago with the ED>N >admission of guilt instead to waiting soooo long. ED>In the words of a long time friend of mine, who comes from the ED>diametrically opposite side of the political spectrum, this is only the ED>second time in his life he has been embarrassed to be an American. ED>The Lewinsky episode is (IMO) a fairly minor thing beyond the fact the it ED>highlights how the Clintons, the current administration and the political ED>establishment we have elected consider themselves the aristorcracy and ED>beyond the law. ED>Had any CEO in any other company in the US pulled that stunt, that person ED>would be long gone and facing a ton of lawsuits. Clinton on the other hand, ED>gets pissed off that people invade his private life. Now that's chutzpah. ED>If he can attract intelligent 20 year olds, and his wife puts up with it, I ED>say more power to him. But I do wish he'd keep it out of the oval office ED>and out of business hours when I'm paying him a ton of money to take care ED>of my interests. Your hypothetical CEO would only have gotten in trouble if the 20 year old intern or whatever had complained or filed a sexual harassment suit. Here Lewisnsky didn't do that. What I can't comprehend is how Hillary Clinton can possibly hang on to her marriage. If it were me I would give the old boy the heave ho in a splint second. Date: Sunday, August 23, 1998 12:29pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747399 To: Nightbird Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747386, Reply to #747384, Reply to #747381, R*) (1 reply) NI>ED>Had any CEO in any other company in the US pulled that stunt, that person NI>ED>would be long gone and facing a ton of lawsuits. Clinton on the other han NI>ED>gets pissed off that people invade his private life. Now that's chutzpah. NI>ED>If he can attract intelligent 20 year olds, and his wife puts up with it, NI>ED>say more power to him. But I do wish he'd keep it out of the oval office NI>ED>and out of business hours when I'm paying him a ton of money to take care NI>ED>of my interests. NI>True, I personally think the man has a major problem & should keep his NI>pants on(and his zipper zipped) NI>If it were anyone else, they would be out of a job & totally ruined. NI>--- If it were any one else the whole affair would have ignored, unless of course, the young lady in question filed a complaint. Such behavior might reasonably be expected to a divorce but that it is strictly a matter for the couple to deal with, and not the whole rest of the world to titiliate about. Date: Sunday, August 23, 1998 12:32pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747400 To: Nightbird Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747392, Reply to #747388, Reply to #747386, R*) (1 reply) NI>ED>N >ED>Had any CEO in any other company in the US pulled that stunt, that NI>ED>N >ED>would be long gone and facing a ton of lawsuits. Clinton on the oth NI>ED>N >ED>gets pissed off that people invade his private life. Now that's chu NI>ED>N >ED>If he can attract intelligent 20 year olds, and his wife puts up wi NI>ED>N >ED>say more power to him. But I do wish he'd keep it out of the oval o NI>ED>N >ED>and out of business hours when I'm paying him a ton of money to tak NI>ED>N >ED>of my interests. NI>ED>N > NI>ED>N >True, I personally think the man has a major problem & should keep his NI>ED>N >pants on(and his zipper zipped) NI>ED>N > NI>ED>N >If it were anyone else, they would be out of a job & totally ruined. NI>ED>Honestly, I try to not sit in judgement, the world is too complicated. We NI>ED>are each individuals, and it takes different things to make us go and all NI>ED>us to function. But the man is supposed to be doing a job, a tough job, a NI>ED>a job that he wanted. He is being paid extraordinarily well for it. In NI>ED>addition to a good salary, just consider what your finances would be like NI>ED>if you didn't have to pay for room, board, health insurance, etc. for 8 NI>ED>years! Alot of people would kill for a job like that. But the job also NI>ED>carries with it "head of state" functions as opposed to CEO functions. As NI>ED>"head of state", he is the symbolic representation of our country. People NI>ED>look at him and see you and me. NI>Don't get me wrong, but I'm getting to the point that I really wish NI>public people were allowed to have private lives. I truly think the NI>whole thing has been blown out of proportion. Just think about what would have happened to old FDR if he were President! Does any one really think that Clinton is the first person to occupy the White Office to have an affair? Date: Sunday, August 23, 1998 12:36pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747401 To: Editor Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747395, Reply to #747392, Reply to #747388, R*) (1 reply) ED>N >ED>Honestly, I try to not sit in judgement, the world is too complicat ED>N >ED>are each individuals, and it takes different things to make us go a ED>N >ED>us to function. But the man is supposed to be doing a job, a tough ED>N >ED>a job that he wanted. He is being paid extraordinarily well for it. ED>N >ED>addition to a good salary, just consider what your finances would b ED>N >ED>if you didn't have to pay for room, board, health insurance, etc. f ED>N >ED>years! Alot of people would kill for a job like that. But the job a ED>N >ED>carries with it "head of state" functions as opposed to CEO functio ED>N >ED>"head of state", he is the symbolic representation of our country. ED>N >ED>look at him and see you and me. ED>N > ED>N > ED>N >Don't get me wrong, but I'm getting to the point that I really wish ED>N >public people were allowed to have private lives. I truly think the ED>N >whole thing has been blown out of proportion. ED>Except that they got where they were by being public property. I really ED>snicker when a Hollywood type complains about lack of privacy, when in fact ED>they have been culling that same publicity for years and making a fortune ED>off of it. Lets remember that what gets most "public people" into ED>governmental positions nowadays is their persona, not their skills. While celebreties do cultivate publicity I think it is quite reasonable for them to want to be able to control the amount of privacy that they surrender and the amount that they can retain. I also think it is reasonable for a celebrity to try to control the content of the information which gets circulated to the general public. Heck, in both instances, that's what PR experts are paid to do! Date: Sunday, August 23, 1998 2:30pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 747402 To: Nightbird Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747381, Reply to #747379) (1 reply) NI>Personally, I think he should have come out a while ago with the NI>admission of guilt instead to waiting soooo long. NI>--- Odds are he feels the same way :-) Date: Sunday, August 23, 1998 8:30pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747404 To: Vida Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747398, Reply to #747384, Reply to #747381, R*) (1 reply) V >Your hypothetical CEO would only have gotten in trouble if the 20 year V >old intern or whatever had complained or filed a sexual harassment V >suit. Here Lewisnsky didn't do that. V > V >What I can't comprehend is how Hillary Clinton can possibly hang on to V >her marriage. If it were me I would give the old boy the heave ho in a V >splint second. To each his/her own. Heaven knows what their arrangement is. I can't believe that a woman as intelligent as Hillary didn't know what she was getting into when she married Willy. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Sunday, August 23, 1998 8:30pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747405 To: Vida Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747401, Reply to #747395, Reply to #747392, R*) (1 reply) V >While celebreties do cultivate publicity I think it is quite reasonabl V >for them to want to be able to control the amount of privacy that they V >surrender and the amount that they can retain. I also think it is V >reasonable for a celebrity to try to control the content of the V >information which gets circulated to the general public. Heck, in bot V >instances, that's what PR experts are paid to do! Speaking of which, have you seen "Wag the Dog?" --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Sunday, August 23, 1998 10:19pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 747407 To: Editor Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747395, Reply to #747392, Reply to #747388, R*) (3 replies) ED>N >ED>Honestly, I try to not sit in judgement, the world is too complicat ED>N >ED>are each individuals, and it takes different things to make us go a ED>N >ED>us to function. But the man is supposed to be doing a job, a tough ED>N >ED>a job that he wanted. He is being paid extraordinarily well for it. ED>N >ED>addition to a good salary, just consider what your finances would b ED>N >ED>if you didn't have to pay for room, board, health insurance, etc. f ED>N >ED>years! Alot of people would kill for a job like that. But the job a ED>N >ED>carries with it "head of state" functions as opposed to CEO functio ED>N >ED>"head of state", he is the symbolic representation of our country. ED>N >ED>look at him and see you and me. ED>N > ED>N > ED>N >Don't get me wrong, but I'm getting to the point that I really wish ED>N >public people were allowed to have private lives. I truly think the ED>N >whole thing has been blown out of proportion. ED>Except that they got where they were by being public property. I really ED>snicker when a Hollywood type complains about lack of privacy, when in fact ED>they have been culling that same publicity for years and making a fortune ED>off of it. Lets remember that what gets most "public people" into ED>governmental positions nowadays is their persona, not their skills. Maybe it's just me, but just because most of their life is in the public eye, doesn't mean EVERYTHING has to be in the public eye. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ #30-3771: There's a nit! Quick! Pick it! - Doug Haire Date: Sunday, August 23, 1998 10:19pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 747408 To: Vida Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747397, Reply to #747381, Reply to #747379) (1 reply) VI>NI>KK>Wow! VI>NI>KK>This is great. VI>NI>KK>This is about the only place on our planet that has no discussion VI>NI>KK>regarding the president's admission :-) VI>NI>That's only because no body seems to be around. VI>NI>Personally, I think he should have come out a while ago with the VI>NI>admission of guilt instead to waiting soooo long. VI>NI>--- VI>Well I can say that I just got back from a week in Montreal with Bob. VI>Personally the whole thing is just so-oo boring. That this country has VI>gotten itself whipped up in a tizzy over the fact that our Pres had an VI>affair just shows how adolescent we all still all. True, like he's the first pres to do that, but he's the first to get caught. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ HEY ROCKY, watch me pull a rabbit outta my hat! Date: Sunday, August 23, 1998 10:19pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 747409 To: Vida Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747399, Reply to #747386, Reply to #747384, R*) VI>NI>ED>Had any CEO in any other company in the US pulled that stunt, that per VI>NI>ED>would be long gone and facing a ton of lawsuits. Clinton on the other VI>NI>ED>gets pissed off that people invade his private life. Now that's chutzp VI>NI>ED>If he can attract intelligent 20 year olds, and his wife puts up with VI>NI>ED>say more power to him. But I do wish he'd keep it out of the oval offi VI>NI>ED>and out of business hours when I'm paying him a ton of money to take c VI>NI>ED>of my interests. VI>NI>True, I personally think the man has a major problem & should keep his VI>NI>pants on(and his zipper zipped) VI>NI>If it were anyone else, they would be out of a job & totally ruined. VI>NI>--- VI>If it were any one else the whole affair would have ignored, unless of VI>course, the young lady in question filed a complaint. Such behavior VI>might reasonably be expected to a divorce but that it is strictly a VI>matter for the couple to deal with, and not the whole rest of the world VI>to titiliate about. Thank you, I beileve it's a personally problem that shouldn't have to be in the public eye. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ I often think I'm following someone. Date: Sunday, August 23, 1998 10:19pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 747410 To: Vida Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747400, Reply to #747392, Reply to #747388, R*) (1 reply) VI>NI>ED>N >ED>Had any CEO in any other company in the US pulled that stunt, th VI>NI>ED>N >ED>would be long gone and facing a ton of lawsuits. Clinton on the VI>NI>ED>N >ED>gets pissed off that people invade his private life. Now that's VI>NI>ED>N >ED>If he can attract intelligent 20 year olds, and his wife puts up VI>NI>ED>N >ED>say more power to him. But I do wish he'd keep it out of the ova VI>NI>ED>N >ED>and out of business hours when I'm paying him a ton of money to VI>NI>ED>N >ED>of my interests. VI>NI>ED>N > VI>NI>ED>N >True, I personally think the man has a major problem & should keep VI>NI>ED>N >pants on(and his zipper zipped) VI>NI>ED>N > VI>NI>ED>N >If it were anyone else, they would be out of a job & totally ruined VI>NI>ED>Honestly, I try to not sit in judgement, the world is too complicated. VI>NI>ED>are each individuals, and it takes different things to make us go and VI>NI>ED>us to function. But the man is supposed to be doing a job, a tough job VI>NI>ED>a job that he wanted. He is being paid extraordinarily well for it. In VI>NI>ED>addition to a good salary, just consider what your finances would be l VI>NI>ED>if you didn't have to pay for room, board, health insurance, etc. for VI>NI>ED>years! Alot of people would kill for a job like that. But the job also VI>NI>ED>carries with it "head of state" functions as opposed to CEO functions. VI>NI>ED>"head of state", he is the symbolic representation of our country. Peo VI>NI>ED>look at him and see you and me. VI>NI>Don't get me wrong, but I'm getting to the point that I really wish VI>NI>public people were allowed to have private lives. I truly think the VI>NI>whole thing has been blown out of proportion. VI>Just think about what would have happened to old FDR if he were VI>President! Does any one really think that Clinton is the first person VI>to occupy the White Office to have an affair? Of course he's not the first & probadly wouldn't be the last. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ #30-3771: Shhhh! Listen to the bitstreams . . . Date: Sunday, August 23, 1998 10:19pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 747411 To: Kkid Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747402, Reply to #747381, Reply to #747379) (1 reply) KK>NI>Personally, I think he should have come out a while ago with the KK>NI>admission of guilt instead to waiting soooo long. KK>NI>--- KK>Odds are he feels the same way :-) Yep, more than like it, seemed that way in his speech. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ WAR, n. A by-product of the arts of peace. Date: Monday, August 24, 1998 8:16am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747412 To: Editor Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747404, Reply to #747398, Reply to #747384, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >Your hypothetical CEO would only have gotten in trouble if the 20 year ED>V >old intern or whatever had complained or filed a sexual harassment ED>V >suit. Here Lewisnsky didn't do that. ED>V > ED>V >What I can't comprehend is how Hillary Clinton can possibly hang on to ED>V >her marriage. If it were me I would give the old boy the heave ho in a ED>V >splint second. ED>To each his/her own. Heaven knows what their arrangement is. I can't ED>believe that a woman as intelligent as Hillary didn't know what she was ED>getting into when she married Willy. The fact that she married him doesn't surprise me. He is charming and intelligent afterall. It's the fact that she STAYS married to him that I can't comprehend. Date: Monday, August 24, 1998 8:19am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747413 To: Editor Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747405, Reply to #747401, Reply to #747395, R*) (2 replies) ED>V >While celebreties do cultivate publicity I think it is quite reasonabl ED>V >for them to want to be able to control the amount of privacy that they ED>V >surrender and the amount that they can retain. I also think it is ED>V >reasonable for a celebrity to try to control the content of the ED>V >information which gets circulated to the general public. Heck, in bot ED>V >instances, that's what PR experts are paid to do! ED>Speaking of which, have you seen "Wag the Dog?" Absoultely. As soon as I heard about the US strikes on those terrorist bases I turned to Bob and said: "Wag the Dog?". It kinda surprises me that there has been no mention of the embassy bombings or the US counter terrorist strikes here in AH yet. Date: Monday, August 24, 1998 8:21am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747414 To: Nightbird Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747407, Reply to #747395, Reply to #747392, R*) (1 reply) NI>ED>N >ED>Honestly, I try to not sit in judgement, the world is too complicat NI>ED>N >ED>are each individuals, and it takes different things to make us go a NI>ED>N >ED>us to function. But the man is supposed to be doing a job, a tough NI>ED>N >ED>a job that he wanted. He is being paid extraordinarily well for it. NI>ED>N >ED>addition to a good salary, just consider what your finances would b NI>ED>N >ED>if you didn't have to pay for room, board, health insurance, etc. f NI>ED>N >ED>years! Alot of people would kill for a job like that. But the job a NI>ED>N >ED>carries with it "head of state" functions as opposed to CEO functio NI>ED>N >ED>"head of state", he is the symbolic representation of our country. NI>ED>N >ED>look at him and see you and me. NI>ED>N > NI>ED>N > NI>ED>N >Don't get me wrong, but I'm getting to the point that I really wish NI>ED>N >public people were allowed to have private lives. I truly think the NI>ED>N >whole thing has been blown out of proportion. NI>ED>Except that they got where they were by being public property. I really NI>ED>snicker when a Hollywood type complains about lack of privacy, when in fa NI>ED>they have been culling that same publicity for years and making a fortune NI>ED>off of it. Lets remember that what gets most "public people" into NI>ED>governmental positions nowadays is their persona, not their skills. NI>Maybe it's just me, but just because most of their life is in the public NI>eye, doesn't mean EVERYTHING has to be in the public eye. I agree with you 100% on this point Marie. On a serious level, I think the lack of privacy we have afforded our politicans has lead otherwise very qualified people to decline from running for office. The prime example I can think is Colin Powell. Date: Monday, August 24, 1998 8:23am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747415 To: Nightbird Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747408, Reply to #747397, Reply to #747381, R*) (3 replies) NI>VI>NI>KK>Wow! NI>VI>NI>KK>This is great. NI>VI>NI>KK>This is about the only place on our planet that has no discussion NI>VI>NI>KK>regarding the president's admission :-) NI>VI>NI>That's only because no body seems to be around. NI>VI>NI>Personally, I think he should have come out a while ago with the NI>VI>NI>admission of guilt instead to waiting soooo long. NI>VI>NI>--- NI>VI>Well I can say that I just got back from a week in Montreal with Bob. NI>VI>Personally the whole thing is just so-oo boring. That this country has NI>VI>gotten itself whipped up in a tizzy over the fact that our Pres had an NI>VI>affair just shows how adolescent we all still all. NI>True, like he's the first pres to do that, but he's the first to get NI>caught. NI>--- Caught with his pants down so to speak. :) Date: Monday, August 24, 1998 8:27am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747416 To: Nightbird Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747410, Reply to #747400, Reply to #747392, R*) (1 reply) NI>VI>NI>ED>N >ED>Had any CEO in any other company in the US pulled that stunt, NI>VI>NI>ED>N >ED>would be long gone and facing a ton of lawsuits. Clinton on t NI>VI>NI>ED>N >ED>gets pissed off that people invade his private life. Now that NI>VI>NI>ED>N >ED>If he can attract intelligent 20 year olds, and his wife puts NI>VI>NI>ED>N >ED>say more power to him. But I do wish he'd keep it out of the NI>VI>NI>ED>N >ED>and out of business hours when I'm paying him a ton of money NI>VI>NI>ED>N >ED>of my interests. NI>VI>NI>ED>N > NI>VI>NI>ED>N >True, I personally think the man has a major problem & should ke NI>VI>NI>ED>N >pants on(and his zipper zipped) NI>VI>NI>ED>N > NI>VI>NI>ED>N >If it were anyone else, they would be out of a job & totally rui NI>VI>NI>ED>Honestly, I try to not sit in judgement, the world is too complicat NI>VI>NI>ED>are each individuals, and it takes different things to make us go a NI>VI>NI>ED>us to function. But the man is supposed to be doing a job, a tough NI>VI>NI>ED>a job that he wanted. He is being paid extraordinarily well for it. NI>VI>NI>ED>addition to a good salary, just consider what your finances would b NI>VI>NI>ED>if you didn't have to pay for room, board, health insurance, etc. f NI>VI>NI>ED>years! Alot of people would kill for a job like that. But the job a NI>VI>NI>ED>carries with it "head of state" functions as opposed to CEO functio NI>VI>NI>ED>"head of state", he is the symbolic representation of our country. NI>VI>NI>ED>look at him and see you and me. NI>VI>NI>Don't get me wrong, but I'm getting to the point that I really wish NI>VI>NI>public people were allowed to have private lives. I truly think the NI>VI>NI>whole thing has been blown out of proportion. NI>VI>Just think about what would have happened to old FDR if he were NI>VI>President! Does any one really think that Clinton is the first person NI>VI>to occupy the White Office to have an affair? NI>Of course he's not the first & probadly wouldn't be the last. NI>--- Unless our media snopping stops he may very well be the last President to have an affair in the White House. Remember FDR also managed to deceive the country about the extent of his disability from polio. I can't imagine a wheelchair bound President being successfully able to conceal that fact now. It is alos highly unlikely that a wheelchair bound person would be elected President in the forseeable future. Date: Monday, August 24, 1998 8:30am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747417 To: Nightbird Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747411, Reply to #747402, Reply to #747381, R*) (2 replies) NI>KK>NI>Personally, I think he should have come out a while ago with the NI>KK>NI>admission of guilt instead to waiting soooo long. NI>KK>NI>--- NI>KK>Odds are he feels the same way :-) NI>Yep, more than like it, seemed that way in his speech. NI>--- I didn't hear the speech, only read about it in the (Montreal) papers. However, the impression I got from the news coverage was that Clinton was very angry that he was forced to confess about his affair with Lewinsky. I definitely felt that he would have prefered to keep that private, if he could have. Date: Monday, August 24, 1998 12:48pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 747418 To: Vida Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747412, Reply to #747404, Reply to #747398, R*) (1 reply) VI>ED>To each his/her own. Heaven knows what their arrangement is. I can't VI>ED>believe that a woman as intelligent as Hillary didn't know what she was VI>ED>getting into when she married Willy. VI>The fact that she married him doesn't surprise me. He is charming and VI>intelligent afterall. It's the fact that she STAYS married to him that VI>I can't comprehend. How many can say they are married to the president! I say that when his term is up there will be a divorce or separation, unless of course the money will mean more to her than the marriage Date: Monday, August 24, 1998 12:51pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 747419 To: Vida Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747417, Reply to #747411, Reply to #747402, R*) (1 reply) VI>I didn't hear the speech, only read about it in the (Montreal) papers. VI>However, the impression I got from the news coverage was that Clinton VI>was very angry that he was forced to confess about his affair with VI>Lewinsky. I definitely felt that he would have prefered to keep that VI>private, if he could have. Yep. He came across as being angry. And yes he would ahve preferred to keep it private. Had he had some foresight all he would have had to do is immediately say that his affairs are private and that would have been it. Once he lied he left himself open to all that followed. Date: Monday, August 24, 1998 5:34pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 747422 To: Vida Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747414, Reply to #747407, Reply to #747395, R*) VI>NI>ED>N >ED>Honestly, I try to not sit in judgement, the world is too compli VI>NI>ED>N >ED>are each individuals, and it takes different things to make us g VI>NI>ED>N >ED>us to function. But the man is supposed to be doing a job, a tou VI>NI>ED>N >ED>a job that he wanted. He is being paid extraordinarily well for VI>NI>ED>N >ED>addition to a good salary, just consider what your finances woul VI>NI>ED>N >ED>if you didn't have to pay for room, board, health insurance, etc VI>NI>ED>N >ED>years! Alot of people would kill for a job like that. But the jo VI>NI>ED>N >ED>carries with it "head of state" functions as opposed to CEO func VI>NI>ED>N >ED>"head of state", he is the symbolic representation of our countr VI>NI>ED>N >ED>look at him and see you and me. VI>NI>ED>N > VI>NI>ED>N > VI>NI>ED>N >Don't get me wrong, but I'm getting to the point that I really wish VI>NI>ED>N >public people were allowed to have private lives. I truly think th VI>NI>ED>N >whole thing has been blown out of proportion. VI>NI>ED>Except that they got where they were by being public property. I reall VI>NI>ED>snicker when a Hollywood type complains about lack of privacy, when in VI>NI>ED>they have been culling that same publicity for years and making a fort VI>NI>ED>off of it. Lets remember that what gets most "public people" into VI>NI>ED>governmental positions nowadays is their persona, not their skills. VI>NI>Maybe it's just me, but just because most of their life is in the public VI>NI>eye, doesn't mean EVERYTHING has to be in the public eye. VI>I agree with you 100% on this point Marie. VI>On a serious level, I think the lack of privacy we have afforded our VI>politicans has lead otherwise very qualified people to decline from VI>running for office. The prime example I can think is Colin Powell. A big YES!!!!!! --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Sorry, the brain you have reached has been disconnected. Date: Monday, August 24, 1998 5:34pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 747423 To: Vida Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747415, Reply to #747408, Reply to #747397, R*) VI>NI>VI>NI>KK>Wow! VI>NI>VI>NI>KK>This is great. VI>NI>VI>NI>KK>This is about the only place on our planet that has no discussio VI>NI>VI>NI>KK>regarding the president's admission :-) VI>NI>VI>NI>That's only because no body seems to be around. VI>NI>VI>NI>Personally, I think he should have come out a while ago with the VI>NI>VI>NI>admission of guilt instead to waiting soooo long. VI>NI>VI>NI>--- VI>NI>VI>Well I can say that I just got back from a week in Montreal with Bob. VI>NI>VI>Personally the whole thing is just so-oo boring. That this country ha VI>NI>VI>gotten itself whipped up in a tizzy over the fact that our Pres had an VI>NI>VI>affair just shows how adolescent we all still all. VI>NI>True, like he's the first pres to do that, but he's the first to get VI>NI>caught. VI>NI>--- VI>Caught with his pants down so to speak. :) Yep, so to say :) --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ How many acrylics died to make that sweater? - N. Bauman Date: Monday, August 24, 1998 5:34pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 747424 To: Vida Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747416, Reply to #747410, Reply to #747400, R*) (1 reply) VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>N >ED>Had any CEO in any other company in the US pulled that stu VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>N >ED>would be long gone and facing a ton of lawsuits. Clinton o VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>N >ED>gets pissed off that people invade his private life. Now t VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>N >ED>If he can attract intelligent 20 year olds, and his wife p VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>N >ED>say more power to him. But I do wish he'd keep it out of t VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>N >ED>and out of business hours when I'm paying him a ton of mon VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>N >ED>of my interests. VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>N > VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>N >True, I personally think the man has a major problem & should VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>N >pants on(and his zipper zipped) VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>N > VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>N >If it were anyone else, they would be out of a job & totally VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>Honestly, I try to not sit in judgement, the world is too compli VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>are each individuals, and it takes different things to make us g VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>us to function. But the man is supposed to be doing a job, a tou VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>a job that he wanted. He is being paid extraordinarily well for VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>addition to a good salary, just consider what your finances woul VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>if you didn't have to pay for room, board, health insurance, etc VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>years! Alot of people would kill for a job like that. But the jo VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>carries with it "head of state" functions as opposed to CEO func VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>"head of state", he is the symbolic representation of our countr VI>NI>VI>NI>ED>look at him and see you and me. VI>NI>VI>NI>Don't get me wrong, but I'm getting to the point that I really wish VI>NI>VI>NI>public people were allowed to have private lives. I truly think th VI>NI>VI>NI>whole thing has been blown out of proportion. VI>NI>VI>Just think about what would have happened to old FDR if he were VI>NI>VI>President! Does any one really think that Clinton is the first person VI>NI>VI>to occupy the White Office to have an affair? VI>NI>Of course he's not the first & probadly wouldn't be the last. VI>NI>--- VI>Unless our media snopping stops he may very well be the last President VI>to have an affair in the White House. Would be nice. VI>Remember FDR also managed to deceive the country about the extent of VI>his disability from polio. I can't imagine a wheelchair bound President VI>being successfully able to conceal that fact now. It is alos highly VI>unlikely that a wheelchair bound person would be elected President in VI>the forseeable future. This I'm not too sure about, the way I feel just because a man(or women) can't walk doesn't make them any less of a good president. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Barium: what you do with dead chemists. - Jay Werkheiser Date: Monday, August 24, 1998 5:35pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 747425 To: Vida Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747417, Reply to #747411, Reply to #747402, R*) VI>NI>KK>NI>Personally, I think he should have come out a while ago with the VI>NI>KK>NI>admission of guilt instead to waiting soooo long. VI>NI>KK>NI>--- VI>NI>KK>Odds are he feels the same way :-) VI>NI>Yep, more than like it, seemed that way in his speech. VI>NI>--- VI>I didn't hear the speech, only read about it in the (Montreal) papers. I truly think he was trying to save face. VI>However, the impression I got from the news coverage was that Clinton VI>was very angry that he was forced to confess about his affair with VI>Lewinsky. I definitely felt that he would have prefered to keep that VI>private, if he could have. True, he seemed truly sorry but angry for being put into a corner. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Bee-eep! This is a test of the emergency tagline service. Date: Tuesday, August 25, 1998 7:59pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747428 To: Nightbird Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747407, Reply to #747395, Reply to #747392, R*) N >ED>Except that they got where they were by being public property. I re N >ED>snicker when a Hollywood type complains about lack of privacy, when N >ED>they have been culling that same publicity for years and making a f N >ED>off of it. Lets remember that what gets most "public people" into N >ED>governmental positions nowadays is their persona, not their skills. N > N >Maybe it's just me, but just because most of their life is in the publ N >eye, doesn't mean EVERYTHING has to be in the public eye. Except that when they make their money by being in the public eye, its kind of tacky to complain about being in the public eye. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Tuesday, August 25, 1998 7:59pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747429 To: Vida Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747413, Reply to #747405, Reply to #747401, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>Speaking of which, have you seen "Wag the Dog?" V > V >Absoultely. As soon as I heard about the US strikes on those terroris V >bases I turned to Bob and said: "Wag the Dog?". V > V >It kinda surprises me that there has been no mention of the embassy V >bombings or the US counter terrorist strikes here in AH yet. Something didn't sit right with me. I would love to that some more evidence was found that that pill factory was a chemical warfare factory. On the other hand, I remember this marvelous line from some crappy movie, I think it was Robocop II. Robocop runs amok and causes a disaster, and the CEO picks a fall guy and says to his corporate butt boy "Find some evidence linker her to this" and the butt boy says "I'm certain we can find it sir, even if it doesn't exist". So.... maybe yes, maybe no. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Tuesday, August 25, 1998 7:59pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747430 To: Vida Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747415, Reply to #747408, Reply to #747397, R*) (1 reply) V >NI>True, like he's the first pres to do that, but he's the first to ge V >NI>caught. V >NI>--- V > V >Caught with his pants down so to speak. :) I think not. Someone, wasn't it Calvin Cooledge, has a child out of wedlock as they say. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Tuesday, August 25, 1998 8:00pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747431 To: Nightbird Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747407, Reply to #747395, Reply to #747392, R*) N >ED>Except that they got where they were by being public property. I re N >ED>snicker when a Hollywood type complains about lack of privacy, when N >ED>they have been culling that same publicity for years and making a f N >ED>off of it. Lets remember that what gets most "public people" into N >ED>governmental positions nowadays is their persona, not their skills. N > N >Maybe it's just me, but just because most of their life is in the publ N >eye, doesn't mean EVERYTHING has to be in the public eye. Except that when they make their money by being in the public eye, its kind of tacky to complain about being in the public eye. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Tuesday, August 25, 1998 8:00pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747432 To: Vida Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747413, Reply to #747405, Reply to #747401, R*) V >ED>Speaking of which, have you seen "Wag the Dog?" V > V >Absoultely. As soon as I heard about the US strikes on those terroris V >bases I turned to Bob and said: "Wag the Dog?". V > V >It kinda surprises me that there has been no mention of the embassy V >bombings or the US counter terrorist strikes here in AH yet. Something didn't sit right with me. I would love to that some more evidence was found that that pill factory was a chemical warfare factory. On the other hand, I remember this marvelous line from some crappy movie, I think it was Robocop II. Robocop runs amok and causes a disaster, and the CEO picks a fall guy and says to his corporate butt boy "Find some evidence linker her to this" and the butt boy says "I'm certain we can find it sir, even if it doesn't exist". So.... maybe yes, maybe no. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Tuesday, August 25, 1998 8:00pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747433 To: Vida Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747415, Reply to #747408, Reply to #747397, R*) V >NI>True, like he's the first pres to do that, but he's the first to ge V >NI>caught. V >NI>--- V > V >Caught with his pants down so to speak. :) I think not. Someone, wasn't it Calvin Cooledge, has a child out of wedlock as they say. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Wednesday, August 26, 1998 6:36am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747438 To: Kkid Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747418, Reply to #747412, Reply to #747404, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>ED>To each his/her own. Heaven knows what their arrangement is. I can't KK>VI>ED>believe that a woman as intelligent as Hillary didn't know what she wa KK>VI>ED>getting into when she married Willy. KK>VI>The fact that she married him doesn't surprise me. He is charming and KK>VI>intelligent afterall. It's the fact that she STAYS married to him that KK>VI>I can't comprehend. KK>How many can say they are married to the president! KK>I say that when his term is up there will be a divorce or separation, KK>unless of course the money will mean more to her than the marriage Yes, I think you are clearly right. Hillary is an ambitious woman. She clearly wanted to be President herself and choose the traditional feminine path of marrying into power. I don't think that the money will keep her married to Bill. Actually, I think throughout their marriage she has been the bigger money earner than Bill. But it may be the prestige or the power that keeps her married to Bill. For example, I read a story which was reprinted in Abigails-l (a feminist e mail list) which reported that Hillary has feelers out to land a job at the UN in some kind of executive capacity once Bill's term of President is over. So she may stayed married to Bill if she thinks it will help her gain power and prestige in her post White House years. On the other hand, a divorce some time in the future would not surprise me. I have been reading press coverage that things have been very tense between Mr. and Mrs. Clinton since Bill "fessed up" to having an affair with Monica. But hell, if I was Hillary I would kill him! Even if she knew about Bill's mistresses (And she is far too intelligent NOT to have known before the TV forecast!) it still must be extremely painful for Hillary to have this whole sorbid mess aired out in public. Date: Wednesday, August 26, 1998 6:44am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747439 To: Kkid Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747419, Reply to #747417, Reply to #747411, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>I didn't hear the speech, only read about it in the (Montreal) papers. KK>VI>However, the impression I got from the news coverage was that Clinton KK>VI>was very angry that he was forced to confess about his affair with KK>VI>Lewinsky. I definitely felt that he would have prefered to keep that KK>VI>private, if he could have. KK>Yep. He came across as being angry. And yes he would ahve preferred to KK>keep it private. Had he had some foresight all he would have had to do KK>is immediately say that his affairs are private and that would have been KK>it. Once he lied he left himself open to all that followed. I think Bill's anger was that he has lied all his life but has managed to get away with it. So he had no reason to believe that any bad results would flow from a lie--in the past he always relied upon his ability to sweet talk himself out of any jam. Date: Wednesday, August 26, 1998 6:52am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747440 To: Nightbird Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747424, Reply to #747416, Reply to #747410, R*) (1 reply) NI>VI>Unless our media snopping stops he may very well be the last President NI>VI>to have an affair in the White House. NI>Would be nice. I am not so sure it would be nice. I think that a lot of very qualified people for the President get scared off from running for the office because of the degree of media scrunity which a modern President must endure. Personally, what a political leader does in his/her own private life is of no concern to me. I would rather see a sinner who is a good leader in the White House than an incompetent saint. NI>VI>Remember FDR also managed to deceive the country about the extent of NI>VI>his disability from polio. I can't imagine a wheelchair bound President NI>VI>being successfully able to conceal that fact now. It is alos highly NI>VI>unlikely that a wheelchair bound person would be elected President in NI>VI>the forseeable future. NI>This I'm not too sure about, the way I feel just because a man(or women) NI>can't walk doesn't make them any less of a good president. NI>--- I don't believe that physical disability has anything to do with being a good President. However, I also don't believe that the nation as a whole is ready to elect a disabled President. Likewise, it will be a long, long time before a woman, a black or a Jew would ever be elected President. It's not because of the inability that Jews, women or blacks wouldn't be elected President. It's because of prejudice. Date: Wednesday, August 26, 1998 6:54am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747441 To: Editor Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747429, Reply to #747413, Reply to #747405, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >ED>Speaking of which, have you seen "Wag the Dog?" ED>V > ED>V >Absoultely. As soon as I heard about the US strikes on those terroris ED>V >bases I turned to Bob and said: "Wag the Dog?". ED>V > ED>V >It kinda surprises me that there has been no mention of the embassy ED>V >bombings or the US counter terrorist strikes here in AH yet. ED>Something didn't sit right with me. I would love to that some more evidence ED>was found that that pill factory was a chemical warfare factory. On the ED>other hand, I remember this marvelous line from some crappy movie, I think ED>it was Robocop II. Robocop runs amok and causes a disaster, and the CEO ED>picks a fall guy and says to his corporate butt boy "Find some evidence ED>linker her to this" and the butt boy says "I'm certain we can find it sir, ED>even if it doesn't exist". ED>So.... maybe yes, maybe no. I agree. It was especially fishy to me when I read the newspaper reports about possible terrorist bases in Albania. That was straight out of "Wag the Dog". Date: Wednesday, August 26, 1998 6:56am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747442 To: Editor Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747430, Reply to #747415, Reply to #747408, R*) ED>V >NI>True, like he's the first pres to do that, but he's the first to ge ED>V >NI>caught. ED>V >NI>--- ED>V > ED>V >Caught with his pants down so to speak. :) ED>I think not. Someone, wasn't it Calvin Cooledge, has a child out of ED>wedlock as they say. Well if we want to talk about that we could mention Thomas Jefferson's illegitmate child. And in that case the mother was his SLAVE--Sally Hanson. Date: Wednesday, August 26, 1998 12:50pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 747447 To: Vida Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747440, Reply to #747424, Reply to #747416, R*) (2 replies) VI>NI>VI>Unless our media snopping stops he may very well be the last President VI>NI>VI>to have an affair in the White House. VI>NI>Would be nice. VI>I am not so sure it would be nice. VI>I think that a lot of very qualified people for the President get VI>scared off from running for the office because of the degree of media VI>scrunity which a modern President must endure. VI>Personally, what a political leader does in his/her own private life is VI>of no concern to me. I would rather see a sinner who is a good leader VI>in the White House than an incompetent saint. True, very true. VI>NI>VI>Remember FDR also managed to deceive the country about the extent of VI>NI>VI>his disability from polio. I can't imagine a wheelchair bound Presiden VI>NI>VI>being successfully able to conceal that fact now. It is alos highly VI>NI>VI>unlikely that a wheelchair bound person would be elected President in VI>NI>VI>the forseeable future. VI>NI>This I'm not too sure about, the way I feel just because a man(or women) VI>NI>can't walk doesn't make them any less of a good president. VI>NI>--- VI>I don't believe that physical disability has anything to do with being VI>a good President. However, I also don't believe that the nation as a VI>whole is ready to elect a disabled President. Likewise, it will be a VI>long, long time before a woman, a black or a Jew would ever be elected VI>President. It's not because of the inability that Jews, women or blacks VI>wouldn't be elected President. It's because of prejudice. But of course, one of these days, people will wake up & stop being so prejudice. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Twinkies have a half-life, but Velveeta is eternal. - J F Date: Wednesday, August 26, 1998 1:36pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747450 To: Vida Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747441, Reply to #747429, Reply to #747413, R*) (1 reply) V >I agree. It was especially fishy to me when I read the newspaper V >reports about possible terrorist bases in Albania. That was straight V >out of "Wag the Dog". I thought it was Afghanistan. Maybe I was wrong. I didn't think that the Afghans had that kind of anti-American sentiment. They are a very Moslem country, but they also owe big time for the help they got in ousting the Russians. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Wednesday, August 26, 1998 4:37pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 747451 To: Vida Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747438, Reply to #747418, Reply to #747412, R*) (1 reply) VI>But hell, if I was Hillary I would kill him! Even if she knew about VI>Bill's mistresses (And she is far too intelligent NOT to have known VI>before the TV forecast!) it still must be extremely painful for Hillary VI>to have this whole sorbid mess aired out in public. I'd say she knew all about it and was hoping it never goes public. I hear that report that will be coming out has some really graphic details of what Clinton and Monica were into. The one really being hurt my this is their daughter. Date: Wednesday, August 26, 1998 4:38pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 747452 To: Vida Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747439, Reply to #747419, Reply to #747417, R*) (1 reply) VI>I think Bill's anger was that he has lied all his life but has managed VI>to get away with it. So he had no reason to believe that any bad VI>results would flow from a lie--in the past he always relied upon his VI>ability to sweet talk himself out of any jam. More or less what Bob Grant said :-) Date: Wednesday, August 26, 1998 7:21pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747453 To: ** ALL ** Re: Susan Faludi on Double Standards Susan Faludi happens to be one of my favorite feminist authors. So I am posting this piece which she wrote for the Guardian newspaper in England. DAMNED IF YOU DON'T, DAMNED IF YOU DO Susan Faludi considers the Clinton sex scandal and how the movement, once found guilty of prudery, is now accused of not being prudish enough The Guardian (London), Thursday, August 20, 1998 As the Clinton sex scandal winds to its bitter end, the real scandal is not what did or didn't happen in the corridors of the Oval Office but how it's been used to justify a lot of political foolishness. Witness the latest misrepresentation of feminism. When I was in college in the late seventies, the primary drawback to declaring oneself a feminist was the stigma that came with it at the time: prude. Why exactly that was the case, after a decade of second-wave feminists celebrating sexual freedom and admiring their vaginas via speculum, was something of a mystery to me. As a young woman with no interest in convent living, I found this aspect of the feminist label irritating. But I quickly learned that it was no more than that, an irritant - and only in theory. In the practice of everyday life, actual young men dealing with actual young women just as quickly came to the obvious, and happy, conclusion that feminist = frigid priss was a spurious equation. While so many of us grew up personally debunking the myth of the sex-phobic feminist in our own bedrooms, the media clung to that canard the way an exorcist clutches his garlic cloves and crucifix. Anti-feminist press pundits seized every opprtunity to decry the women's movement as a band of vice-squad fussbudgets. When Camille Paglia came along to bash feminism for sexual squeamishness, she was instantly granted Most Favoured Media Status. When young author Katie Roiphe railed against campus feminists' supposed fixation on date rape, she was immediately annointed Sound-bite Sally. The New York Times, in its self-appointed role of Roiphe publicist, stuck her on the cover of the New York Times Sunday Magazine, the front of the New York Times Book Review and page one of the New York Times Living section - though all to little effect. Her actual reading constituency - young women readers - didn't share her shrill perceptions of feminists' supposed sexual hang-ups and her book sales languished. All predictable fare, I suppose. It's been going on since suffragists were painted prune-faced spinsters. But then emerged, unforeseen, a whole new, inventive way to skewer feminists on the old sex-averse barb. I first noticed something was up when I got a phone call from a Newsweek reporter back when the biggest White House sex scandal was the antics of President Clinton's adviser Dick Morris, said to be partial to sucking the toes of a prostitute at an old-line Washington hotel. The reporter wanted me to comment on adultery from 'a feminist perspective'. Having bought into the myth that feminists are the puritanical police force of sexual morals, she expected me to express outrage at the spectre of infidelity. When I didn't, she was not only frustrated but a little put out at my failure to perform my designated feminist role: knuckle-rapper of anyone (ie, any man) whose private behaviour had been deemed socially unacceptable. When the Monica Lewinsky brouhaha broke, I got another call from a Newsweek reporter. This guy was downright surly when I didn't endorse burning Clinton at the stake. He began to shout at me over the phone. What kind of feminist was I, anyway, to 'suddenly' refuse to condemn male sexual behaviour? 'Don't you think you're being a hypocrite?' he hissed. The hypocrisy line became instant conventional wisdom. It went like this: feminists embraced Anita Hill when she didn't like Clarence Thomas's sniggering about big-dick porn stars and pubic hairs on Coke cans, but now they are discreetly looking the other way when Clinton is accused of sexual dalliances. Never mind that what feminists were calling for in Hill's case was not suppression of sex but the right of a woman not to have her voice suppressed in a public hearing. Never mind that the women's movement's concerns have always been with the use of sexual harassment to drive women out of the workforce, not with the private acts of two consenting people. Never mind that feminists have never called for the legal or legislative regulation of private sexual behaviour, no matter how repugnant that behaviour may be to one's own personal morality. No, now feminists' sin was that we had not lived up to our reputation as Victorian avengers. The epithet that was once used to discredit feminism now became our crowning glory, and it was our sacred duty to uphold it or give up the crown. We had failed our legacy as feminists by failing to adhere to the stereotype that had been invented in the first place to hang us. Feminists now found ourselves in the Alice in Wonderland position of having been found guilty twice for two opposite verdicts on the same charge: first we were sentenced for having committed the crime of prudery, then for having not been prudish enough. In this through-the-looking-glass realm, any feminist who said 'Wait a sec, that's not what I was saying at all!' was immediately ground into mincemeat in the media's mandibles. When Gloria Steinem wrote a common- sensical column pointing out the differences between consensual sex and the legal definition of sexual harassment on the job, the media firemen rang the four-alarm bells. Her words threatened to burn the whole house of feminism down, the pundits insisted - the same pundits who been trying to burn that house down themselves for the past several decades. The New York Times devoted an entire editorial to deploring Steinem's opinion piece and the supposed 'dangers' her article had unleashed on an unsuspecting female public. Three days later, former New York Times executive-editor-cum-columnist Abe Rosenthal foamed hysterically (in both senses of the word) against Steinem in his column. 'We are talking about acts that could terrorise some women, and lead them to horrified flight, even to their death,' he thundered. His evidence: six decades ago, he wrote, his sister Bess had run home after encountering a flasher and had died from pneumonia shortly thereafter. When I wrote in a small item in the Nation that a more likely suspect in Bess's death was poverty - Abe's sister contracted pneumonia after endless germ-filled subway commutes to and from her cruddy low-paid secretarial job - I promptly became the next feminist 'hypocrite' to be upbraided by the media. Time magazine, among others, promptly singled out this small piece as proof of my having abandoned feminist rectitude in the quest to 'make excuses for the President'. As it happened, the whole Time piece was an effort to besmirch feminism on the sex question. The cover story, entitled hopefully 'Is Feminism Dead?', illustrated its thesis with a set of pictures that traced the supposed decline of feminism from the bun-and-bonnet suffragist to the self-absorbed and sex-fantasising TV character Ally McBeal. 'With its days of flat shoes and fiery protest behind it,' Time intoned, 'feminism is clearly more attractive to Love now.' This, however, was a bad development, according to Time, indicating feminism's detour into a ditz-oid realm of Spice Girls rotating their belly buttons, Bust magazine gals confessing their vibrator thrills and writer Elizabeth Wurtzel shedding her shirt for the cover of her book, Bitch. 'What a comedown for the movement,' the magazine lamented soulfully, a jeremiad that would had been a tad more believable if Time hadn't devoted the last 30 years to kicking feminism in the teeth at every opportunity. There is something awful about feminism being invoked to sell lame CDs, magazines and books. But that's hardly evidence that feminism is dead. If anything, it's evidence that women's craving for independence and voice is so immense that, in the absence of real autonomy and authority, an ersatz feminism manufactured and packaged by commercial interests can make zillions. What Time was chronicling wasn't, as it thought, feminism's new exhibitionistic tendencies. It was the commerical culture's - and the triumph of its version of sex, a retouched plastic blow-up doll version, a kind of 'death' that produces money but turns human sexuality into an inanimate transaction. Women want, as do all human beings, to feel they have an effect on the world, that they are engaged and powerful on the public stage. But at century's end, the crushing force of global consumerism has turned the public stage into a display counter. And under that glass, girls take their shirts off because they sense, rightly, that this is the only likely way to exercise 'power' in such an age. In this new market economy, the object of the gaze becomes, if not free, then at least, for her 30 seconds of fame, rich and celebrated. Young women only need look to Time magazine for confirmation of this modern reality. The magazine offered up Ally McBeal's legs for readers' delectation... while at the same time cancelling the contract of their one feminist columnist, Barbara Ehrenreich, whose pieces probing deeply into matters of social injustice and economic inequality proved too... well, feminist, for the magazine's censorious tastes. The vanquishing of Barbara Ehrenreich is the real hypocrisy. And also an example of the real repression - the kind that spells actual 'dangers' for women's progress, the kind that could indeed 'terrorise some women', women who will never get to gyrate under the display glass. First the media and pop-culture purveyors stamped the label of sex-phobic on feminists, then condemned them for not living up to the stigma. Now they unroll the glittery new red carpet of consumerism and invite young women to prance down its length in their underwear... then condemn them for accepting the invitation. Which just speaks to the truth of feminism's oldest and deepest message - until you stop dutifully following cultural orders and learn to think for yourself, you'll never be nothing but somebody's girl. Date: Wednesday, August 26, 1998 7:26pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747455 To: Nightbird Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747447, Reply to #747440, Reply to #747424, R*) (1 reply) NI>VI>NI>VI>Unless our media snopping stops he may very well be the last Presid NI>VI>NI>VI>to have an affair in the White House. NI>VI>NI>Would be nice. NI>VI>I am not so sure it would be nice. NI>VI>I think that a lot of very qualified people for the President get NI>VI>scared off from running for the office because of the degree of media NI>VI>scrunity which a modern President must endure. NI>VI>Personally, what a political leader does in his/her own private life is NI>VI>of no concern to me. I would rather see a sinner who is a good leader NI>VI>in the White House than an incompetent saint. NI>True, very true. NI>VI>NI>VI>Remember FDR also managed to deceive the country about the extent o NI>VI>NI>VI>his disability from polio. I can't imagine a wheelchair bound Presi NI>VI>NI>VI>being successfully able to conceal that fact now. It is alos highl NI>VI>NI>VI>unlikely that a wheelchair bound person would be elected President NI>VI>NI>VI>the forseeable future. NI>VI>NI>This I'm not too sure about, the way I feel just because a man(or wome NI>VI>NI>can't walk doesn't make them any less of a good president. NI>VI>NI>--- NI>VI>I don't believe that physical disability has anything to do with being NI>VI>a good President. However, I also don't believe that the nation as a NI>VI>whole is ready to elect a disabled President. Likewise, it will be a NI>VI>long, long time before a woman, a black or a Jew would ever be elected NI>VI>President. It's not because of the inability that Jews, women or blacks NI>VI>wouldn't be elected President. It's because of prejudice. NI>But of course, one of these days, people will wake up & stop being so NI>prejudice. NI>--- Perhaps some day. Date: Wednesday, August 26, 1998 7:29pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747456 To: Editor Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747450, Reply to #747441, Reply to #747429, R*) ED>V >I agree. It was especially fishy to me when I read the newspaper ED>V >reports about possible terrorist bases in Albania. That was straight ED>V >out of "Wag the Dog". ED>I thought it was Afghanistan. Maybe I was wrong. I didn't think that the ED>Afghans had that kind of anti-American sentiment. They are a very Moslem ED>country, but they also owe big time for the help they got in ousting the ED>Russians. If my memory is correct the film said terrorists in Albania. That was part of the point of the movie--the was was with a country that we don't think of as posing a threat. And then while I was in Montreal I read an article in the "Montreal Gazette" (the English language paper in Montreal) about possible terrorist basis in Albania. I immediately drew the connection to the movie and became suspicious when I read that article. Date: Wednesday, August 26, 1998 7:30pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747457 To: Kkid Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747451, Reply to #747438, Reply to #747418, R*) KK>VI>But hell, if I was Hillary I would kill him! Even if she knew about KK>VI>Bill's mistresses (And she is far too intelligent NOT to have known KK>VI>before the TV forecast!) it still must be extremely painful for Hillary KK>VI>to have this whole sorbid mess aired out in public. KK>I'd say she knew all about it and was hoping it never goes public. I KK>hear that report that will be coming out has some really graphic details KK>of what Clinton and Monica were into. KK>The one really being hurt my this is their daughter. It hurts both of them. But of course, Chelsea is the bigger of the victims. Hillary can chose to divorce Bill but one can never divorce one's father. Date: Wednesday, August 26, 1998 7:30pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747458 To: Kkid Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747452, Reply to #747439, Reply to #747419, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>I think Bill's anger was that he has lied all his life but has managed KK>VI>to get away with it. So he had no reason to believe that any bad KK>VI>results would flow from a lie--in the past he always relied upon his KK>VI>ability to sweet talk himself out of any jam. KK>More or less what Bob Grant said :-) I am sure Bob Grant and I agree on very little else. :) Date: Thursday, August 27, 1998 9:55am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 747463 To: Vida Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747455, Reply to #747447, Reply to #747440, R*) (1 reply) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Unless our media snopping stops he may very well be the last Pre VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>to have an affair in the White House. VI>NI>VI>NI>Would be nice. VI>NI>VI>I am not so sure it would be nice. VI>NI>VI>I think that a lot of very qualified people for the President get VI>NI>VI>scared off from running for the office because of the degree of media VI>NI>VI>scrunity which a modern President must endure. VI>NI>VI>Personally, what a political leader does in his/her own private life i VI>NI>VI>of no concern to me. I would rather see a sinner who is a good leader VI>NI>VI>in the White House than an incompetent saint. VI>NI>True, very true. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Remember FDR also managed to deceive the country about the exten VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>his disability from polio. I can't imagine a wheelchair bound Pr VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>being successfully able to conceal that fact now. It is alos hi VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>unlikely that a wheelchair bound person would be elected Preside VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>the forseeable future. VI>NI>VI>NI>This I'm not too sure about, the way I feel just because a man(or w VI>NI>VI>NI>can't walk doesn't make them any less of a good president. VI>NI>VI>NI>--- VI>NI>VI>I don't believe that physical disability has anything to do with being VI>NI>VI>a good President. However, I also don't believe that the nation as a VI>NI>VI>whole is ready to elect a disabled President. Likewise, it will be a VI>NI>VI>long, long time before a woman, a black or a Jew would ever be elected VI>NI>VI>President. It's not because of the inability that Jews, women or black VI>NI>VI>wouldn't be elected President. It's because of prejudice. VI>NI>But of course, one of these days, people will wake up & stop being so VI>NI>prejudice. VI>NI>--- VI>Perhaps some day. Perhaps but it hasn't happened yet, will it ever? --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ "Beans, the musical fruit" sang Tom, astutely. Date: Thursday, August 27, 1998 4:55pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 747465 To: Vida Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747458, Reply to #747452, Reply to #747439, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>More or less what Bob Grant said :-) VI>I am sure Bob Grant and I agree on very little else. :) You would have to listen to him more often to find out if you agree in anything else :-) Date: Friday, August 28, 1998 5:39am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747468 To: Nightbird Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747463, Reply to #747455, Reply to #747447, R*) (1 reply) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Unless our media snopping stops he may very well be the last NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>to have an affair in the White House. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Would be nice. NI>VI>NI>VI>I am not so sure it would be nice. NI>VI>NI>VI>I think that a lot of very qualified people for the President get NI>VI>NI>VI>scared off from running for the office because of the degree of med NI>VI>NI>VI>scrunity which a modern President must endure. NI>VI>NI>VI>Personally, what a political leader does in his/her own private lif NI>VI>NI>VI>of no concern to me. I would rather see a sinner who is a good lea NI>VI>NI>VI>in the White House than an incompetent saint. NI>VI>NI>True, very true. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Remember FDR also managed to deceive the country about the ex NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>his disability from polio. I can't imagine a wheelchair bound NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>being successfully able to conceal that fact now. It is alos NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>unlikely that a wheelchair bound person would be elected Pres NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>the forseeable future. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>This I'm not too sure about, the way I feel just because a man(o NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>can't walk doesn't make them any less of a good president. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>--- NI>VI>NI>VI>I don't believe that physical disability has anything to do with be NI>VI>NI>VI>a good President. However, I also don't believe that the nation as NI>VI>NI>VI>whole is ready to elect a disabled President. Likewise, it will be NI>VI>NI>VI>long, long time before a woman, a black or a Jew would ever be elec NI>VI>NI>VI>President. It's not because of the inability that Jews, women or bl NI>VI>NI>VI>wouldn't be elected President. It's because of prejudice. NI>VI>NI>But of course, one of these days, people will wake up & stop being so NI>VI>NI>prejudice. NI>VI>NI>--- NI>VI>Perhaps some day. NI>Perhaps but it hasn't happened yet, will it ever? NI>--- Hopefully some day! And hopefully sooner than later. But the pessimist in me says we will have to wait a long, long time until this country reaches that level of maturity. Date: Friday, August 28, 1998 5:40am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747469 To: Kkid Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747465, Reply to #747458, Reply to #747452, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>KK>More or less what Bob Grant said :-) KK>VI>I am sure Bob Grant and I agree on very little else. :) KK>You would have to listen to him more often to find out if you agree in KK>anything else :-) I have a feeling if I did I would get sick to my stomach. :) Date: Friday, August 28, 1998 11:28am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 747474 To: Vida Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747468, Reply to #747463, Reply to #747455, R*) (1 reply) VI>NI>VI>NI>But of course, one of these days, people will wake up & stop being VI>NI>VI>NI>prejudice. VI>NI>VI>NI>--- VI>NI>VI>Perhaps some day. VI>NI>Perhaps but it hasn't happened yet, will it ever? VI>NI>--- VI>Hopefully some day! And hopefully sooner than later. But the pessimist VI>in me says we will have to wait a long, long time until this country VI>reaches that level of maturity. Will the country EVER be mature? --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ A man needs a good memory after he has lied. Date: Friday, August 28, 1998 5:27pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747479 To: Nightbird Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747447, Reply to #747440, Reply to #747424, R*) (1 reply) N >VI>I don't believe that physical disability has anything to do with be N >VI>a good President. However, I also don't believe that the nation as N >VI>whole is ready to elect a disabled President. Likewise, it will be N >VI>long, long time before a woman, a black or a Jew would ever be elec N >VI>President. It's not because of the inability that Jews, women or bl N >VI>wouldn't be elected President. It's because of prejudice. N > N >But of course, one of these days, people will wake up & stop being so N >prejudice. Why? --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Saturday, August 29, 1998 3:56pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 747482 To: Editor Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747479, Reply to #747447, Reply to #747440, R*) (1 reply) ED>N >VI>I don't believe that physical disability has anything to do with be ED>N >VI>a good President. However, I also don't believe that the nation as ED>N >VI>whole is ready to elect a disabled President. Likewise, it will be ED>N >VI>long, long time before a woman, a black or a Jew would ever be elec ED>N >VI>President. It's not because of the inability that Jews, women or bl ED>N >VI>wouldn't be elected President. It's because of prejudice. ED>N > ED>N >But of course, one of these days, people will wake up & stop being so ED>N >prejudice. ED>Why? Better question, why not? ED>--- ED> þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ ...hey was that thunder I heard @˜äÞœ¬*ιF/Ý&ˆ£, Date: Sunday, August 30, 1998 7:07am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747486 To: Nightbird Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747474, Reply to #747468, Reply to #747463, R*) (1 reply) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>But of course, one of these days, people will wake up & stop bei NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>prejudice. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>--- NI>VI>NI>VI>Perhaps some day. NI>VI>NI>Perhaps but it hasn't happened yet, will it ever? NI>VI>NI>--- NI>VI>Hopefully some day! And hopefully sooner than later. But the pessimist NI>VI>in me says we will have to wait a long, long time until this country NI>VI>reaches that level of maturity. NI>Will the country EVER be mature? NI>--- Let's pray that it will be soon! But if not, I trust that someday it will happen. Date: Sunday, August 30, 1998 10:58am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 747491 To: Vida Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747486, Reply to #747474, Reply to #747468, R*) (1 reply) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>But of course, one of these days, people will wake up & stop VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>prejudice. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>--- VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Perhaps some day. VI>NI>VI>NI>Perhaps but it hasn't happened yet, will it ever? VI>NI>VI>NI>--- VI>NI>VI>Hopefully some day! And hopefully sooner than later. But the pessimi VI>NI>VI>in me says we will have to wait a long, long time until this country VI>NI>VI>reaches that level of maturity. VI>NI>Will the country EVER be mature? VI>NI>--- VI>Let's pray that it will be soon! But if not, I trust that someday it VI>will happen. Sooner or later, wouldn't mind seeing it happen in Patrick's time. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ #30-3771: Blow your mind. Smoke gunpowder. - Marcos Della Date: Sunday, August 30, 1998 12:37pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 747494 To: Vida Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747469, Reply to #747465, Reply to #747458, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>VI>KK>More or less what Bob Grant said :-) VI>KK>VI>I am sure Bob Grant and I agree on very little else. :) VI>KK>You would have to listen to him more often to find out if you agree in VI>KK>anything else :-) VI>I have a feeling if I did I would get sick to my stomach. :) I doubt it. He's mellowed. Odds are you would find things you agree with him and others that you disagree. Date: Monday, August 31, 1998 6:48am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747498 To: Nightbird Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747491, Reply to #747486, Reply to #747474, R*) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>But of course, one of these days, people will wake up & st NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>prejudice. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>--- NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Perhaps some day. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Perhaps but it hasn't happened yet, will it ever? NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>--- NI>VI>NI>VI>Hopefully some day! And hopefully sooner than later. But the pess NI>VI>NI>VI>in me says we will have to wait a long, long time until this countr NI>VI>NI>VI>reaches that level of maturity. NI>VI>NI>Will the country EVER be mature? NI>VI>NI>--- NI>VI>Let's pray that it will be soon! But if not, I trust that someday it NI>VI>will happen. NI>Sooner or later, wouldn't mind seeing it happen in Patrick's time. Perhaps. :) Date: Monday, August 31, 1998 6:49am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747499 To: Kkid Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747494, Reply to #747469, Reply to #747465, R*) KK>VI>KK>VI>KK>More or less what Bob Grant said :-) KK>VI>KK>VI>I am sure Bob Grant and I agree on very little else. :) KK>VI>KK>You would have to listen to him more often to find out if you agree in KK>VI>KK>anything else :-) KK>VI>I have a feeling if I did I would get sick to my stomach. :) KK>I doubt it. He's mellowed. Odds are you would find things you agree with KK>him and others that you disagree. Bob Grant mellow? I find that kinda hard to believe. :) Date: Monday, August 31, 1998 8:13am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747500 To: Nightbird Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747482, Reply to #747479, Reply to #747447, R*) (1 reply) NI>ED>N >But of course, one of these days, people will wake up & stop being so NI>ED>N >prejudice. NI>ED>Why? NI>Better question, why not? Being unprejudiced is counter survival. If you don't have the ability to compete directly, you make an end run. Being unprejudiced takes emotional maturity and confidence. Its hard work. I see this everyday in the business world. Its safer (and sometimes more rewarding) to hang back, or worse, be creatively negative, rather than actually try to accomplish something. If you have limited abilities, and are unwilling to either work hard or improve your abilities, its convenient to be prejudiced and to promote prejudice. It cuts down on the competition. Date: Tuesday, September 1, 1998 6:45am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747522 To: Editor Re: Our wonderful president (Reply to #747500, Reply to #747482, Reply to #747479, R*) ED>NI>ED>N >But of course, one of these days, people will wake up & stop being ED>NI>ED>N >prejudice. ED>NI>ED>Why? ED>NI>Better question, why not? ED>Being unprejudiced is counter survival. If you don't have the ability to ED>compete directly, you make an end run. Being unprejudiced takes ED>emotional maturity and confidence. Its hard work. The fact that is is so much hard work is the reason why people are still so prejudiced, even though this way of thinking is so counterproductive. People, as a general rule, are lazy. ED>I see this everyday in the business world. Its safer (and sometimes more ED>rewarding) to hang back, or worse, be creatively negative, rather than ED>actually try to accomplish something. If you have limited abilities, and ED>are unwilling to either work hard or improve your abilities, its ED>convenient to be prejudiced and to promote prejudice. It cuts down on ED>the competition. I don't think prejudice is quite so reasoned out. I think it is something much more primitive and deeper rooted. Which is what makes it so hard to remove. Date: Wednesday, September 2, 1998 7:15am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747537 To: ** ALL ** Re: The Central Synagogue This was posted to the Liberal Judaism e mail list which I get. I am posting it here because I want it to get as wide readership as possible. Also my recent posts to the /Theology sig have been ignored. :( ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Emily Grotta Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 11:17:40 -0400 Subject: Announcement: Central Synagogue As you probably know by now, Central Synagogue in New York City suffered a major fire on Friday, apparently caused by a blowtorch as workmen installed an air-conditioning system during renovations. The fire roard uncontrolled for three hours. While the building is structurally sound, the interior was damaged extensively, especially by the water poured to extinguish the flames. The synagogue, built in 1872, was registered as a national and New York landmark. The torahs and other ritual objects had been removed earlier during the renovation period. The congregation's offices, school classrooms and a chapel are housed in a nearby building which was not damaged during the fire. Numerous religious organizations have offered to help and to house the congregation for High Holy Day worship. The UAHC has been in touch with Rabbi Peter Rubinstein and Central's president, Martin Klein, who say the synagogue will be rebuilt. We know that your congregation may want to assist in this effort. The temple has begun a fund for the rebuilding. Checks may be made payable to "Central Synagogue Restoration Fund" and mailed to: Restoration Fund, c/o Central Synagogue, 123 East 55th Street, NY, NY 10022. Or, people may contact Hollis G. Dorman, Director of Development, Central Synagogue, 123 East 55th St., New York, NY, (212) 838-5189, (212) 644-2168 FAX, holly@censyn.org Emily Grotta, UAHC Director of Communications ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Monday, September 7, 1998 5:19pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747580 To: ** ALL ** Re: Chlorine in the gene pool department (3 replies) As you folks know, I'm kind of an aggressive civil libertarian, but some of the stuff I've been reading lately must be coming from off planet. ------------------ SPARKS, NV. (Reno Gazette) -- According to Sparks police, Felimone Ruiz-Perez w as burglarizing a vehicle on Victorian Avenue around 3 a.m., when the ruckus aw oke its owner, an 84 year old woman, who sleepily confronted him, understandabl y causing him to panic. Police said the terror-stricken Felimone then tried to flee the scene, but ran into the corner of a brick building, where they found h im, knocked unconscious. After being treated at a Reno hospital, Felimone was b ooked for investigation of vehicle burglary and possession of stolen property a nd put in Washoe County Jail where he was reportedly asking other inmates about finding a lawyer to sue the 84 year old woman, and the brick building, for uns pecified damages. --------------------- The city of San Carlos, California filed a lawsuit against Ryan McDonell, a kid who was hit by a city truck. The city wanted to recover the driver's medical e xpenses, workers compensation, and repairs to the truck. ---------------------- A convict who escaped from prison sued his county and the sheriff for negligenc e in allowing him to escape. Another convict sued his county and sheriff for th e emotional stress he suffered while trying to escape. --------------------- A Virginia inmate tried to sue himself for $5 million on the grounds that he ha d gotten drunk and caused himself to violate his religious beliefs by committin g a crime. Because he had no money, he wanted the state to pay the $5 million. ---------------------- * In May, trial began in Toronto, Ontario, in the lawsuit by Toronto-Dominion Bank to recover $3.5 million from Edward Del Grande, who had b orrowed for his businesses. Del Grande is countersuing for $30 million, saying the problem was that the bank had loaned him too much money. Del Grande charg ed that if the bank had been more prudent, his companies could have survived th e down market in real estate. [Globe & Mail, 5-25-95] Date: Monday, September 7, 1998 7:05pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747581 To: Editor Re: Chlorine in the gene pool department (Reply to #747580) (1 reply) I'm surprised you didn't picked up on the story of the woman who is suing an abortion clinic for "wrongful birth" because she was terrorized into not having an abortion by right-to-lifers protesting outside of the clinic. Date: Monday, September 7, 1998 8:34pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747583 To: Vida Re: Chlorine in the gene pool department (Reply to #747581, Reply to #747580) (1 reply) V >I'm surprised you didn't picked up on the story of the woman who is V >suing an abortion clinic for "wrongful birth" because she was V >terrorized into not having an abortion by right-to-lifers protesting V >outside of the clinic. I"m not sure what set me off. I think it was an article about how Ralph Nader is setting up a litigation museum upstate someplace. I did a web search on "frivolous litigation" and that just scratches the surface of what appeared. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Monday, September 7, 1998 9:27pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Akira Msg#: 747584 To: Editor Re: Chlorine in the gene pool department (Reply to #747580) Gotta love the country we live in that makes it possible for people to raise such suits... Greg -Thinking about how he can get reimbursed for spilling that coffee DAMN! It's been done already! Date: Tuesday, September 8, 1998 8:22pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747592 To: Editor Re: Chlorine in the gene pool department (Reply to #747583, Reply to #747581, Reply to #747580) ED>V >I'm surprised you didn't picked up on the story of the woman who is ED>V >suing an abortion clinic for "wrongful birth" because she was ED>V >terrorized into not having an abortion by right-to-lifers protesting ED>V >outside of the clinic. ED>I"m not sure what set me off. I think it was an article about how Ralph ED>Nader is setting up a litigation museum upstate someplace. I did a web ED>search on "frivolous litigation" and that just scratches the surface of ED>what appeared. I'm surprised it's Nader that would be sitting up that kind of museum. It sounds more like something the insurance industry would set up. Nader I thought would be totally pro-plaintiff. Date: Wednesday, September 9, 1998 10:05am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 747593 To: Editor Re: Chlorine in the gene pool department (Reply to #747580) And from the Daily News about a month or so ago.. A bank robber was suing the teller he tried to rob because she told the The close circuit camera clearly shows that he did not dsplay his gun whil robbing the teller! Date: Thursday, September 17, 1998 2:10pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747640 To: ** ALL ** Re: Affirmative Action (1 reply) Court says disabled woman should be given aid on bar exams September 16, 1998 Web posted at: 10:08 AM EDT (1408 GMT) NEW YORK (AP) -- A federal appeals court has ruled that a law school graduate w ho claims she has a reading disorder should have been given extra time to compl ete the state bar exam. The decision by the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals is important to all profe ssional licensing organizations, which worry it may be tougher to maintain stan dards, The New York Times reported today. Marilyn Bartlett, a Long Island college teacher, sued the New York Board of Law Examiners in 1993 after it denied her application to accommodate her disabilit y. She had asked for more time to take the exam, sought permission to record her e ssays on tape and wanted to circle answers in the test booklet instead of using a computerized answer sheet. The board refused after an outside expert who tested Ms. Bartlett determined sh e had no reading disorder. But the appeals court ruled the board's decision was based on an arbitrary stan dard of disability. "Reasonable accommodation of this disability will enable her to compete fairly with others in taking the examination," the court said in a decision released M onday. Licensing organizations worried the ruling would make it more difficult to weed out those who seek to use disability claims as an excuse for poor academic per formance. They also worried the ruling means disability claims may never be sec ond-guessed by outside experts. But advocates for those with disabilities claimed victory. "The decision says that just because someone finds a way to compensate for thei r disability doesn't take away the disability, any more than someone's taking m edication, or wearing glasses, to function well doesn't mean they are not disab led," said Ruth Lowenkron, one of Ms. Bartlett's lawyers. After her suit was filed, the board agreed that Ms. Bartlett, 50, could take th e July 1993 bar examination -- her fifth attempt -- with the accommodations. The board said it would not certify the results unless she won her lawsuit. Eve n with the accommodations, Ms. Bartlett failed. Copyright 1998 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. Date: Friday, September 18, 1998 6:44am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747642 To: Editor Re: Affirmative Action (Reply to #747640) (2 replies) This story is clearly insanity. But I take exception to labeling the topic "affirmative action" because this is clearly an abuse of a legitimate law that was passed in order to prevent discrimination against truly disabled people. Date: Friday, September 18, 1998 6:47am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747643 To: ** ALL ** Re: The Starr Report (4 replies) Any comments from our peanut gallery about the Starr Report and the prospects of impeaching Clinton? Are all the leering questions that were posed by the grand jury to Clinton (ie. the infamous cigar and Altoids incidients) legitmiate questions to be posed to a President? Is any one out there a little troubled by the future impact that this may have to the dignity of the office of the President? Date: Friday, September 18, 1998 8:46am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747645 To: Vida Re: Affirmative Action (Reply to #747642, Reply to #747640) (2 replies) V >This story is clearly insanity. But I take exception to labeling the V >topic "affirmative action" because this is clearly an abuse of a V >legitimate law that was passed in order to prevent discrimination V >against truly disabled people. Agreed on the first point. The trouble with your objection counsellor is that based on the way the law is written, this IS a story about affirmative action. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Friday, September 18, 1998 8:46am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747646 To: Vida Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747643) (1 reply) V >Any comments from our peanut gallery about the Starr Report and the V >prospects of impeaching Clinton? Are all the leering questions that V >were posed by the grand jury to Clinton (ie. the infamous cigar and V >Altoids incidients) legitmiate questions to be posed to a President? V >Is any one out there a little troubled by the future impact that this V >may have to the dignity of the office of the President? I will sum my feelings up as follows: When the President of the United States makes a decision, many people are effected, and often some people die. Above and beyond anything else this guy has done, I am flabbergasted that he would conduct business on the phone, in the oval office while receiving a blow job. The next time a body bag comes home from Bosnia, ask yourself if the decision to act was made before, after or during the blow job. The diginity of the office is probably damaged beyond repair, at least for this guy, and with the loss of dignity comes a loss of power, both in the US and abroad. So, as far as the guy getting it on with a woman less than half his age, more power to him. From what I hear of her, this may have been "technical harrassment", but it sure sounds consensual from here. But as for his job, you have to realize that 99% of his job is administrative and can be handled by others. This man is there to make those one or two decisions that HAVE to be made. I don't know about you, but when he makes that decision, I'd sure like to believe that the correct head was involved. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Friday, September 18, 1998 12:57pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 747649 To: Vida Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747643) (3 replies) VI>Any comments from our peanut gallery about the Starr Report and the VI>prospects of impeaching Clinton? Are all the leering questions that VI>were posed by the grand jury to Clinton (ie. the infamous cigar and VI>Altoids incidients) legitmiate questions to be posed to a President? VI>Is any one out there a little troubled by the future impact that this VI>may have to the dignity of the office of the President? Just a little troubled but at this point I am SOOOO sick of hearing about Clinton. I beileve this should haven't gone beyond 3 people, Bill, Hillary & Monica! --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ "Maybe I'll look for a new partner," said Fred, gingerly. Date: Friday, September 18, 1998 4:43pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 747650 To: Vida Re: Affirmative Action (Reply to #747642, Reply to #747640) (1 reply) VI>This story is clearly insanity. But I take exception to labeling the VI>topic "affirmative action" because this is clearly an abuse of a VI>legitimate law that was passed in order to prevent discrimination VI>against truly disabled people. Ok...I'll play the devis's advocate. Why do you say that the story is clearly insane? She was not cheating on the exam, nor were there any answers given to her. I would have sworn that you would have agreed with the ruling in allowing her to compensate for her disability. Date: Friday, September 18, 1998 4:47pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 747651 To: Vida Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747643) (1 reply) VI>Any comments from our peanut gallery about the Starr Report and the VI>prospects of impeaching Clinton? Are all the leering questions that VI>were posed by the grand jury to Clinton (ie. the infamous cigar and VI>Altoids incidients) legitmiate questions to be posed to a President? VI>Is any one out there a little troubled by the future impact that this VI>may have to the dignity of the office of the President? Why should we worry about the dignity of the president if he himself did not worry? What he does in the privacy of HIS house is his business. What he does in the White House is our business. No other executive would have had the option of keeping his job after even a single sexual incident with a 21 year old intern. The president should have even stricter guidelines. By pursuing the current path we are hopfully ensuring the future dignity of the office. Date: Friday, September 18, 1998 4:47pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 747652 To: Editor Re: Affirmative Action (Reply to #747645, Reply to #747642, Reply to #747640) (1 reply) ED>V >This story is clearly insanity. But I take exception to labeling the ED>V >topic "affirmative action" because this is clearly an abuse of a ED>V >legitimate law that was passed in order to prevent discrimination ED>V >against truly disabled people. ED>Agreed on the first point. The trouble with your objection counsellor is ED>that based on the way the law is written, this IS a story about affirmative ED>action. That is why I was quite surprised by Vida's reaction! Date: Friday, September 18, 1998 4:49pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 747653 To: Nightbird Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747649, Reply to #747643) (3 replies) NI>Just a little troubled but at this point I am SOOOO sick of hearing NI>about Clinton. NI>I beileve this should haven't gone beyond 3 people, Bill, Hillary & NI>Monica! NI>--- It would have stayed with them had he taken Monica to his house :-) Date: Friday, September 18, 1998 10:42pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747655 To: Nightbird Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747649, Reply to #747643) (1 reply) N >VI>Any comments from our peanut gallery about the Starr Report and the N >VI>prospects of impeaching Clinton? Are all the leering questions tha N >VI>were posed by the grand jury to Clinton (ie. the infamous cigar an N >VI>Altoids incidients) legitmiate questions to be posed to a President N >VI>Is any one out there a little troubled by the future impact that th N >VI>may have to the dignity of the office of the President? N > N >Just a little troubled but at this point I am SOOOO sick of hearing N >about Clinton. N > N >I beileve this should haven't gone beyond 3 people, Bill, Hillary & N >Monica! That's a nice thought, but unfortunately when he brough his private life into the workplace, and let it effect how he makes decisions and how he spends OUR money, it ceases to be private. Please remember that we are not talking about a man who snuck off after hours, or during a foreign trip, or whatever. We are talking about a man responsible for decisions that effect millions of lives acting getting sidetracked during the business day, showing contempt for the people he works for, and generally put his own well being ahead of his commitment to do his job. In other words, if anyone but the President of the United States acted this way, he'd be out. So, if you are tired of hearing about it, good. Did you vote for him? I didn't. Twice I didn't. The best way to stop hearing about him is if he cleans up his act and stops acting like living erectile tissue. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Friday, September 18, 1998 10:42pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747656 To: Kkid Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747653, Reply to #747649, Reply to #747643) (1 reply) K >NI>Just a little troubled but at this point I am SOOOO sick of hearing K >NI>about Clinton. K > K >NI>I beileve this should haven't gone beyond 3 people, Bill, Hillary & K >NI>Monica! K >NI>--- K > K >It would have stayed with them had he taken Monica to his house :-) Apparently during one of the "prayer breakfasts" Clinto borrowed some sentences about repentence from the Yom Kippur liturgy. The rabbi at the Forest Hills Jewish Center nearly went beserk. A lifelong democrat, I have never heard him so angry. He made a reference to someone who not only broke two commandments but went on to trample them. (Personally I figure it at least three.) Most of all, he's worried about the effect of all this crap on the teenagers. Every time he can get a group together, at any class or social event, he is in there discussing this with them in terms of the ethics and morality of it. I think there is real danger here. You know how lawyers love precedents. Here is the President of the United States, a man who is supposed to set a HIGHER standard, committing perjury and maybe walking away from it. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Saturday, September 19, 1998 12:24pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Nightbird Msg#: 747658 To: Kkid Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747653, Reply to #747649, Reply to #747643) KK>NI>Just a little troubled but at this point I am SOOOO sick of hearing KK>NI>about Clinton. KK>NI>I beileve this should haven't gone beyond 3 people, Bill, Hillary & KK>NI>Monica! KK>NI>--- KK>It would have stayed with them had he taken Monica to his house :-) True but that was just too easy for Bill. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Gysies di it with crystal balls Date: Sunday, September 20, 1998 7:18am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747665 To: Editor Re: Affirmative Action (Reply to #747645, Reply to #747642, Reply to #747640) ED>V >This story is clearly insanity. But I take exception to labeling the ED>V >topic "affirmative action" because this is clearly an abuse of a ED>V >legitimate law that was passed in order to prevent discrimination ED>V >against truly disabled people. ED>Agreed on the first point. The trouble with your objection counsellor is ED>that based on the way the law is written, this IS a story about affirmative ED>action. That's where you and I disagree. I think the Second Circuit clearly errred because the experts hired by the testing agency found this woman was not disabled. What troubled me about the decision is the fact that I believe this woman was "faking" a disability in order to get an advantage. Date: Sunday, September 20, 1998 7:37am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747666 To: Editor Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747646, Reply to #747643) (1 reply) ED>V >Any comments from our peanut gallery about the Starr Report and the ED>V >prospects of impeaching Clinton? Are all the leering questions that ED>V >were posed by the grand jury to Clinton (ie. the infamous cigar and ED>V >Altoids incidients) legitmiate questions to be posed to a President? ED>V >Is any one out there a little troubled by the future impact that this ED>V >may have to the dignity of the office of the President? ED>I will sum my feelings up as follows: ED>When the President of the United States makes a decision, many people are ED>effected, and often some people die. Above and beyond anything else this ED>guy has done, I am flabbergasted that he would conduct business on the ED>phone, in the oval office while receiving a blow job. The next time a body ED>bag comes home from Bosnia, ask yourself if the decision to act was made ED>before, after or during the blow job. Yes, but apparently Clinton was able to receive a blow job without it effecting his ability to govern or to make decisions. So the point then becomes: Do we have any right to know about Clinton's blow jobs? As long as there is no suggestion that a President is making decisions on an irrational basis then doesn't the President deserve some privacy? Would you ever want to have to answer graphic questions about your sexual conduct? Do we have the right to ask these kinds of questions to any citizen so long as the citizen is not charged with forcing himself on another person? ED>The diginity of the office is probably damaged beyond repair, at least for ED>this guy, and with the loss of dignity comes a loss of power, both in the ED>US and abroad. I am afraid that the loss of dignity will last long after Clinton leaves office. It will effect every President that follows. ED>So, as far as the guy getting it on with a woman less than half his age, ED>more power to him. From what I hear of her, this may have been "technical ED>harrassment", but it sure sounds consensual from here. But as for his job, ED>you have to realize that 99% of his job is administrative and can be ED>handled by others. This man is there to make those one or two decisions ED>that HAVE to be made. I don't know about you, but when he makes that ED>decision, I'd sure like to believe that the correct head was involved. Yes but apparently this guy is totally able to disengage is sexual side from his rational side, so that he can have sex and still think straight. It's not that uncommon phenomenom. Especially with respect to man in power. You know there are so many ironies in this situation. I think Newt Gingrich is quite right when he charges Clinton with being a misogynist. I think Clinton's sexual behavior is one of a misogynist. The irony is that for Newt to call Clinton a misogynist is sort of like the kettle calling the pot black. The other irony is that if you use any kind of feminist conciousness at all than his behavior with Lewinsky is not "technical harassment". It IS harassment. What makes it harassment is not only the fact that Clinton is more than twenty years older than Lewinsky. What makes it harassment is the difference in power between the President of the United States and a White House intern. So it's kind of funny that here I am, a dedicated feminist, support this prick Clinton. But I do so because his voting record has been good on feminist issues. Witness Clinton's veto on the so called "partial birth abortion" issue and the very close failure to override that veto. Date: Sunday, September 20, 1998 7:39am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747667 To: Nightbird Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747649, Reply to #747643) NI>VI>Any comments from our peanut gallery about the Starr Report and the NI>VI>prospects of impeaching Clinton? Are all the leering questions that NI>VI>were posed by the grand jury to Clinton (ie. the infamous cigar and NI>VI>Altoids incidients) legitmiate questions to be posed to a President? NI>VI>Is any one out there a little troubled by the future impact that this NI>VI>may have to the dignity of the office of the President? NI>Just a little troubled but at this point I am SOOOO sick of hearing NI>about Clinton. NI>I beileve this should haven't gone beyond 3 people, Bill, Hillary & NI>Monica! Yup! And my prediction is that not long after Bill leaves office, Hillary will leave Bill. I can't believe she is putting up with his behavior as it is. Date: Sunday, September 20, 1998 7:49am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747668 To: Kkid Re: Affirmative Action (Reply to #747650, Reply to #747642, Reply to #747640) (1 reply) KK>VI>This story is clearly insanity. But I take exception to labeling the KK>VI>topic "affirmative action" because this is clearly an abuse of a KK>VI>legitimate law that was passed in order to prevent discrimination KK>VI>against truly disabled people. KK>Ok...I'll play the devis's advocate. Why do you say that the story is KK>clearly insane? She was not cheating on the exam, nor were there any KK>answers given to her. I would have sworn that you would have agreed with KK>the ruling in allowing her to compensate for her disability. I think it is insane because I don't believe she is truly disabled. I think she is a faker because the experts hired by the agency found that she had no disability. I have had enough experience with "hired gun" experts to trust that the experts she hired to prove her disability had any objectivity or any basis in fact. In addition, I question whether even a truly "learning disabled" person should be given extra time to finish a bar exam. I believe the ability to read and comprehend English is a job related skill for an attorney. And working within deadlines, working under pressure is definitely a job related skill. I am not ready at this point to say that we should NEVER give a person extra time to finish a bar exam. But I think that the presumption should be NOT to do so unless the individual can present clear and compelling evidence of their need for extra time and their ability to perform the job skills of an attorney. Date: Sunday, September 20, 1998 8:01am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747669 To: Kkid Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747651, Reply to #747643) (1 reply) KK>VI>Any comments from our peanut gallery about the Starr Report and the KK>VI>prospects of impeaching Clinton? Are all the leering questions that KK>VI>were posed by the grand jury to Clinton (ie. the infamous cigar and KK>VI>Altoids incidients) legitmiate questions to be posed to a President? KK>VI>Is any one out there a little troubled by the future impact that this KK>VI>may have to the dignity of the office of the President? KK>Why should we worry about the dignity of the president if he himself did KK>not worry? What he does in the privacy of HIS house is his business. KK>What he does in the White House is our business. No other executive KK>would have had the option of keeping his job after even a single KK>sexual incident with a 21 year old intern. The president should have KK>even stricter guidelines. By pursuing the current path we are hopfully KK>ensuring the future dignity of the office. I take exception to your comment that no other executive would keep his job even after one sexual incidient with a 21 year old intern. I think this kind of thing happens very, very frequently. That's the hyprocrisy of the whole thing--almost every politican around is guilty of the same kind of behavior if not worse. The only time an executive gets in trouble is if the 21 year old assistant complains of harrasment. So long as the pretty young woman does not do so, then the executive has nothing to fear. I also think that to say that the President has no right of privacy wihin the White House sets a very dangerous precedent. Who would want to live within that kind of glass bowl for four years? The level of scrunity that we give to our President and to our Presidential candidates is already discouraging many able and competent people from running for the office. Ie., I firmly believe that Colin Powell did not run for office because there is some skelton in his closet or his wife's closet that he does not want to be exposed. So this increased level of scrunity would only further serve as discouragement to competent people to run for the office of President. Date: Sunday, September 20, 1998 8:03am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747670 To: Kkid Re: Affirmative Action (Reply to #747652, Reply to #747645, Reply to #747642, R*) (1 reply) KK>ED>V >This story is clearly insanity. But I take exception to labeling the KK>ED>V >topic "affirmative action" because this is clearly an abuse of a KK>ED>V >legitimate law that was passed in order to prevent discrimination KK>ED>V >against truly disabled people. KK>ED>Agreed on the first point. The trouble with your objection counsellor is KK>ED>that based on the way the law is written, this IS a story about affirmati KK>ED>action. KK>That is why I was quite surprised by Vida's reaction! I think the story is about ABUSE of affirmative action! The reason why I challenged Editor's title is because I felt he was confusing the abuse with the real thing. Date: Sunday, September 20, 1998 8:03am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747671 To: Kkid Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747653, Reply to #747649, Reply to #747643) (1 reply) KK>NI>Just a little troubled but at this point I am SOOOO sick of hearing KK>NI>about Clinton. KK>NI>I beileve this should haven't gone beyond 3 people, Bill, Hillary & KK>NI>Monica! KK>NI>--- KK>It would have stayed with them had he taken Monica to his house :-) But that's exactly what he did! As long as he is President the White House is his home. Date: Sunday, September 20, 1998 8:05am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747672 To: Editor Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747655, Reply to #747649, Reply to #747643) (1 reply) ED>N >VI>Any comments from our peanut gallery about the Starr Report and the ED>N >VI>prospects of impeaching Clinton? Are all the leering questions tha ED>N >VI>were posed by the grand jury to Clinton (ie. the infamous cigar an ED>N >VI>Altoids incidients) legitmiate questions to be posed to a President ED>N >VI>Is any one out there a little troubled by the future impact that th ED>N >VI>may have to the dignity of the office of the President? ED>N > ED>N >Just a little troubled but at this point I am SOOOO sick of hearing ED>N >about Clinton. ED>N > ED>N >I beileve this should haven't gone beyond 3 people, Bill, Hillary & ED>N >Monica! ED>That's a nice thought, but unfortunately when he brough his private life ED>into the workplace, and let it effect how he makes decisions and how he ED>spends OUR money, it ceases to be private. Please remember that we are not ED>talking about a man who snuck off after hours, or during a foreign trip, or ED>whatever. We are talking about a man responsible for decisions that effect ED>millions of lives acting getting sidetracked during the business day, ED>showing contempt for the people he works for, and generally put his own ED>well being ahead of his commitment to do his job. In other words, if anyone ED>but the President of the United States acted this way, he'd be out. ED>So, if you are tired of hearing about it, good. Did you vote for him? I ED>didn't. Twice I didn't. The best way to stop hearing about him is if he ED>cleans up his act and stops acting like living erectile tissue. What evidence do you have that is sexual misconduct effected his decision making ability? He is not even being charged of this. He is being charged with sexual misconduct and lying about his sexual misconduct. Date: Sunday, September 20, 1998 8:38am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747673 To: ** ALL ** Re: Andrew Sullivan on sexgate Ok, ok this piece is long. But I am posting it here because I thought it was interesting. The Sunday Times of London September 20 1998 By Andrew Sullivan Of all the verbiage produced about l'affaire Lewinsky, the least persuasive argument is that it has nothing to do with the real America. The Lewinsky matter is a tawdry and irrelevant dalliance, say the chin-scratchers. It is unimportant compared with America's other burning issues: growing income inequality, the future of social security, healthcare reform and so on. We have no interest in discovering whether Ms Lewinsky and the president engaged in peppermint-assisted fellatio, they harrumph. And the polls, in which the public professes not to care less about the scandal, seem to confirm this analysis. If you want to strike a pose of lofty earnestness in journalistic circles, you write a column wearily expressing the view that this scandal is all overblown, that it has no place dominating a great country's politics, that men have always been cads, and that Monica's closest recent competitor was O J Simpson. That trial, like the president's ordeal, was, according to the cynics, a vile and twisted soap opera that degraded American politics and culture. Well, half-right. This scandal is, indeed, similar to the O J drama, but perhaps not in quite the way its detractors would like. Both affairs were about lurid celebrity, scandal, sex and crime. But both were also about something real and something important. That's why it is more relevant to look at the sharp increases in television viewership and newspaper sales than at what Americans tell pollsters. The truth is that most Americans are riveted by this story, and they are riveted because, like the O J drama, it is about something real. The O J affair, after all, was not ultimately about murder. It was about race and sex and class. It was about relations between men and women and relations between blacks and whites and relations between America's rich and America's poor. In the same way, the Lewinsky affair is not about interns and presidents and conniving secretaries. It is about sex and crime and morality. It is about the relations between men and women, between morality and criminality, between truth and lies, and between public and private. And it's hard to think of any more contentious issues before Americans. In the post-ideological era, where debates are no longer between left and right, but between right and wrong, these scandals are not diversions from America's politics. They are America's politics. Perhaps one way to see this more clearly is to compare the Lewinsky scandal with Watergate. Nixon clearly abused government office to persecute his political enemies. More important, the politics that drove the scandal was related to the bitterness and anger provoked by the Vietnam war and to the memory of Nixon's red-baiting in the cold war. It was a narrowly political scandal, with few broader cultural resonances. It was sustained and given meaning by the cold war battle lines of the 1960s and 1970s. Its backdrop was a disastrous economic situation, fuelled in part by Nixon's own fiscal irresponsibility. Now fast-forward to Lewinsky. The first and obvious difference is that there is no cold war and the domestic economy is stable. This is not Profumo, susceptible to blackmail by the Russians. And this is not Nixon, who started his criminal escapades by trying to take revenge on those who had leaked the Vietnam Pentagon papers. This is not even Iran-contra, another scandal related to the anti-communist crusade of the last half-century. So what is the Lewinsky matter about? The questions it raises are questions that would hardly have been discussed a generation ago. Indeed, they were once matters of a national consensus that required little political argument. They are, among others: what is the proper relationship between men and women? Are women victims or victors in the aftermath of the feminist revolution? Above all, do we have clear and coherent moral standards for our public and private life? And can we afford not to? Again, these are not minor questions. They go to the core of the country America is trying to be. Other countries may be able to live with ignored hypocrisies or quickly tolerated double standards. But Americans, living in a media universe as porous as any in the modern world, and blessed (or cursed) with the old puritanical desire to make their public life square with their private convictions, cannot live that way. They worry and pick at their moral and social wounds. So a shifty president and a bewildered 25-year-old are now grist for the battle between America's id and America's super-ego. In America, the war between the counter-culture of the 1960s and the counter-counter-culture of the 1980s continues unabated. This is the essence of the culture war that is now the white-hot centre of politics. Nowhere is it more intense than in the generation that came of age in the 1960s: the Clinton generation. And no discussion of the Lewinsky matter makes sense without it. The right is particularly adamant that the culture war will not go away. American conservatism, unlike its European counterpart, has reacted to the general liberalisation of social and sexual matters in the past couple of decades not with a laissez-faire acceptance, or wistful regret, but with a renewed zeal to return America to the social and moral order of the past. As David Frum put it in a recent issue of the conservative magazine The Weekly Standard: what's at stake in the Lewinsky scandal is not the right to privacy, but the central dogma of the baby boomers, the belief that sex, so long as it is consensual, ought never to be subject to moral scrutiny at all. William Bennett is another classic exponent of today's conservative wisdom. In his book The Death of Outrage, Bennett unapologetically puts the Lewinsky affair not in the context of one man's depravity or weakness, but as an indictment of an entire generation and culture. It is an indictment not so much of Clinton, but of the country he governs. The reason the American right is so intent on putting Clinton on trial, it seems, is that it wants to put an entire moral sensibility on trial and find it guilty. In this skirmish in the culture war, Clinton is a stand-in for every other draft-dodging, philandering liberal of his generation. Some battles, it seems, never end. The past few weeks have seen a counter-attack by the ageing cohorts of the counter-culture on many leading conservatives. Baby-boomer liberals, who view Clinton's adultery as none too worrisome, have suddenly recognised what this scandal is about. They are seething at what they see as the hypocrisy of many conservatives, who have actually adopted many post-1960s social practices but refuse to admit it. So their first target was Congressman Dan Burton, the head of the Whitewater congressional committee and a take-no-prisoners social conservative, who turns out to have fathered an illegitimate child in the 1970s. His liberal enemies leaked the story to Vanity Fair, and Burton had to make a pre-emptive strike and admit it. Then the left outed conservative firebrand Helen Chenoweth, another Republican member of Congress, revealing that she had had an adulterous affair several years ago, although she was now cheerily running campaign ads decrying Clinton's character. Finally, last week saw the 1960s alumni wheel out their main weapon, exposing the fact in the online magazine Salon that Henry Hyde, the chairman of the House judiciary committee and the man ultimately responsible for the possibility of impeachment hearings, also had an extramarital affair years ago. In a sign that the cultural warfare is even intensifying, congressional Republicans last Thursday instructed the FBI to investigate who might have been the source of such rumours. They suspect they are the people who fed the press rumours about the alleged sexual peccadilloes of Kenneth Starr's investigative staff earlier this year. They suspect the likes of Hillary Clinton and Sidney Blumenthal, both veterans of the culture wars of the 1960s, and barely reconstructed liberals. And so the Lewinsky hearings look set to become even more tortured and the political battle even more intense. The trouble is, of course, that both sides are trying to resolve the irresolvable. In the middle stand the American people. Americans are definitely uneasy about the effects of the 1960s. Nobody is happy about high divorce and abortion rates, or the vulnerability of many working women in the post-1960s sexual climate. But equally, most Americans are loath to see a return to the past. They don't want to see divorce or abortion made illegal. They don't want women back in the kitchen. And they don't want adulterers to be branded with the scarlet letter. So they hover uncomfortably in deciding how to judge Clinton's conduct and what to do about it. Hence the unprecedented public interest in the Lewinsky affair, and yet their professed hope that it will all somehow go away. Hence also their favourite solution. They'd like to censure Clinton but not impeach him, just as they would like to criticise the 1960s generation but not damn them. The public's exquisite ambivalence, of course, only makes the cultural warriors more intent to make their case. In Washington, the machinery of the social right is already in full swing to bring a generation to account. And if the conservatives continue to overplay their hand, the social left looks set to respond in kind. Lurid the Lewinsky saga may be, even occasionally raw and upsetting. But one thing it isn't is irrelevant. It's the most relevant thing around. Which is why it will be around for a long, long time to come. ************************************************************************ Date: Sunday, September 20, 1998 11:59pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747675 To: Vida Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747666, Reply to #747646, Reply to #747643) (1 reply) V >ED>When the President of the United States makes a decision, many peop V >ED>effected, and often some people die. Above and beyond anything else V >ED>guy has done, I am flabbergasted that he would conduct business on V >ED>phone, in the oval office while receiving a blow job. The next time V >ED>bag comes home from Bosnia, ask yourself if the decision to act was V >ED>before, after or during the blow job. V > V > V >Yes, but apparently Clinton was able to receive a blow job without it V >effecting his ability to govern or to make decisions. How do you know? His track record of lousy decisions is about ten feet high? The kindest thing I can say is that his decisions weren't stupid in the context that they were beautifully self serving. Doesn't anyone other than me remember Somalia? Clinton virtually abandoned the troops who were (literally) torn to pieces by the local hacks? Or how about Bosnia, and how we were going to be out in 90 days. Or how about the mentally retarded man he had executed in Arkansas. OK, its not something he did as President, but its damned ugly. Or how about the way he let that female pilot be crucified for a fraction of what he did. She had control of one or two nuclear bombs? He has control of a couple of thousand. Or how about the total disgrace of how he handled the "don't ask don't tell" fiasco. Plus the fact that the number of "gay related" military discharges is at an all time high. Or the string of corpses (literal and figurative) he left along the way as he shaped his career. Remember that lifelong friend who found out he had been fired by reading it in the newspapers? And I'm sick and tired of hearing how much he has done for the economy. This economic boom is a gift from Reagan and Bush. The boom started three months before he took office. The economic legislation he asked for took almost a year to push through, and most of it didn't kick in until his second term. It takes quite a few years to change the direction of this economy, and in case you didn't notice, six years into Clinton's presidency the economy is cooling off. The sex issues are (IMO)irrelevant, except for the fact that it took place under conditions that are so ugly. The oval office is as close to a holy place as secular America can accept. So what has he done? He fought and won a battle on a marginal abortion issue. He signed "harrassment" legislation into law and then proceeded to not only break that law, but outright trample on it. Something that looked innocuous happened the other night, but watch out for it. A Miss America contestant was nearly disqualified because she claimed she was registered at the college she claimed to be registered at. She presented an argument along the lines of "that depends on how you define registraiton". Sound familiar? I'd bet that you're going to be hearing an awful lot of this kind of defence. Exactly how effective do you think this man can be any longer? Not very effective I'd bet, and that means he has screwed up his job big time. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Sunday, September 20, 1998 11:59pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747676 To: Vida Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747672, Reply to #747655, Reply to #747649, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>So, if you are tired of hearing about it, good. Did you vote for hi V >ED>didn't. Twice I didn't. The best way to stop hearing about him is i V >ED>cleans up his act and stops acting like living erectile tissue. V > V >What evidence do you have that is sexual misconduct effected his V >decision making ability? He is not even being charged of this. He is V >being charged with sexual misconduct and lying about his sexual V >misconduct. I wasn't aware that he was being charged with sexual misconduct, only perjury. That's what's relevant. He has set a horrid example. God only knows where the legal system will take it if he is let off the hook for this perjury thing. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Sunday, September 20, 1998 11:59pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747677 To: Vida Re: Affirmative Action (Reply to #747668, Reply to #747650, Reply to #747642, R*) (1 reply) V >In addition, I question whether even a truly "learning disabled" perso V >should be given extra time to finish a bar exam. I believe the abilit V >to read and comprehend English is a job related skill for an attorney. V >And working within deadlines, working under pressure is definitely a V >job related skill. How did you feel about the trucking company that was forced to hire the epileptic driver? How is that different from a learning disabled lawyer? --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Sunday, September 20, 1998 11:59pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747678 To: Vida Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747671, Reply to #747653, Reply to #747649, R*) (1 reply) V >KK>NI>Just a little troubled but at this point I am SOOOO sick of hear V >KK>NI>about Clinton. V > V >KK>NI>I beileve this should haven't gone beyond 3 people, Bill, Hillar V >KK>NI>Monica! V >KK>NI>--- V > V >KK>It would have stayed with them had he taken Monica to his house :-) V > V >But that's exactly what he did! As long as he is President the White V >House is his home. THE Oval Office is NOT his home! It is his place of business. His home is in another part of the building. It is very clearcut. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 7:26pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747681 To: Editor Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747675, Reply to #747666, Reply to #747646, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >Yes, but apparently Clinton was able to receive a blow job without it ED>V >effecting his ability to govern or to make decisions. ED>How do you know? His track record of lousy decisions is about ten feet ED>high? The kindest thing I can say is that his decisions weren't stupid in ED>the context that they were beautifully self serving. The fact that Starr doesn't even accuse Clinton of making a poor decision because of sexual dalliances speaks volumes. If there was one itoa of a possiblity to make that charge than Starr would have made the charge. ED>Doesn't anyone other than me remember Somalia? Clinton virtually abandoned ED>the troops who were (literally) torn to pieces by the local hacks? ED>Or how about Bosnia, and how we were going to be out in 90 days. ED>Or how about the mentally retarded man he had executed in Arkansas. OK, its ED>not something he did as President, but its damned ugly. ED>Or how about the way he let that female pilot be crucified for a fraction ED>of what he did. She had control of one or two nuclear bombs? He has control ED>of a couple of thousand. ED>Or how about the total disgrace of how he handled the "don't ask don't ED>tell" fiasco. Plus the fact that the number of "gay related" military ED>discharges is at an all time high. ED>Or the string of corpses (literal and figurative) he left along the way as ED>he shaped his career. Remember that lifelong friend who found out he had ED>been fired by reading it in the newspapers? ED>And I'm sick and tired of hearing how much he has done for the economy. ED>This economic boom is a gift from Reagan and Bush. The boom started three ED>months before he took office. The economic legislation he asked for took ED>almost a year to push through, and most of it didn't kick in until his ED>second term. It takes quite a few years to change the direction of this ED>economy, and in case you didn't notice, six years into Clinton's presidency ED>the economy is cooling off. ED>The sex issues are (IMO)irrelevant, except for the fact that it took place ED>under conditions that are so ugly. The oval office is as close to a holy ED>place as secular America can accept. ED>So what has he done? He fought and won a battle on a marginal abortion ED>issue. He signed "harrassment" legislation into law and then proceeded to ED>not only break that law, but outright trample on it. ED>Something that looked innocuous happened the other night, but watch out for ED>it. A Miss America contestant was nearly disqualified because she claimed ED>she was registered at the college she claimed to be registered at. She ED>presented an argument along the lines of "that depends on how you define ED>registraiton". Sound familiar? I'd bet that you're going to be hearing an ED>awful lot of this kind of defence. ED>Exactly how effective do you think this man can be any longer? Not very ED>effective I'd bet, and that means he has screwed up his job big time. If he is not effective that's because the Republicans won't let him be effective. In my opinion this whole affair is extremely dangerous attempt by the Republicans to accomplish what they could not accomplish in the voting booth. Date: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 7:32pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747682 To: Editor Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747676, Reply to #747672, Reply to #747655, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >ED>So, if you are tired of hearing about it, good. Did you vote for hi ED>V >ED>didn't. Twice I didn't. The best way to stop hearing about him is i ED>V >ED>cleans up his act and stops acting like living erectile tissue. ED>V > ED>V >What evidence do you have that is sexual misconduct effected his ED>V >decision making ability? He is not even being charged of this. He is ED>V >being charged with sexual misconduct and lying about his sexual ED>V >misconduct. ED>I wasn't aware that he was being charged with sexual misconduct, only ED>perjury. That's what's relevant. He has set a horrid example. God only ED>knows where the legal system will take it if he is let off the hook for ED>this perjury thing. The perjury and sexual misconduct issues are interwined--he is being accused of committing perjury about his sexual misconduct. The only way he can be guilty of perjury is if in fact he sexually misbehaved and lied about it. And I am such a cynic. I see litigants committing perjury every day in the legal system. It's so common place that it's ridiculous. I will also tell you that whenever I prepared a client for a deposition I always instruct the client to listen to the question very carefully and to answer the questions as it is posed. I also instruct my clients to NEVER volunteer any inforamtion. And oh yeah, I instruct my clients to always tell the truth. Date: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 7:33pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747683 To: Editor Re: Affirmative Action (Reply to #747677, Reply to #747668, Reply to #747650, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >In addition, I question whether even a truly "learning disabled" perso ED>V >should be given extra time to finish a bar exam. I believe the abilit ED>V >to read and comprehend English is a job related skill for an attorney. ED>V >And working within deadlines, working under pressure is definitely a ED>V >job related skill. ED>How did you feel about the trucking company that was forced to hire the ED>epileptic driver? How is that different from a learning disabled lawyer? Is the epileipsy under control with medication? So long as the driver is taking medication I see no reason why he/she can not do the job. Date: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 7:35pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747684 To: Editor Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747678, Reply to #747671, Reply to #747653, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >KK>NI>Just a little troubled but at this point I am SOOOO sick of hear ED>V >KK>NI>about Clinton. ED>V > ED>V >KK>NI>I beileve this should haven't gone beyond 3 people, Bill, Hillar ED>V >KK>NI>Monica! ED>V >KK>NI>--- ED>V > ED>V >KK>It would have stayed with them had he taken Monica to his house :-) ED>V > ED>V >But that's exactly what he did! As long as he is President the White ED>V >House is his home. ED>THE Oval Office is NOT his home! It is his place of business. His home is ED>in another part of the building. It is very clearcut. Sounds like your splitting hairs to me. So long as the doors are closed and Monica consenting that how is it your business? Date: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 9:13pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747686 To: Vida Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747681, Reply to #747675, Reply to #747666, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>Something that looked innocuous happened the other night, but watch V >ED>it. A Miss America contestant was nearly disqualified because she c V >ED>she was registered at the college she claimed to be registered at. V >ED>presented an argument along the lines of "that depends on how you d V >ED>registraiton". Sound familiar? I'd bet that you're going to be hear V >ED>awful lot of this kind of defence. V > V >ED>Exactly how effective do you think this man can be any longer? Not V >ED>effective I'd bet, and that means he has screwed up his job big tim V > V > V >If he is not effective that's because the Republicans won't let him be V >effective. In my opinion this whole affair is extremely dangerous V >attempt by the Republicans to accomplish what they could not accomplis V >in the voting booth. Yup... that's right. The republicans got us stuck in Bosnia. The Republicans made Clinton lie to the gay constituency and the Jewish constituency. The Republicans abandoned the troops in Somalia. The Republicans turned the grand jury testimony into a grammar lessons. And I just plain can't figure out how they got him to do that thing with the cigar while in the oval office. Boy oh boy, that right wing conspiracy is sure powerful. Good thing we know about that conspiracy, otherwise an objective observer might say that the only way that anyone as bright as Clinton could get into this mess is by being more interested in his personal agenda than in doing his job. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 9:13pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747687 To: Vida Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747682, Reply to #747676, Reply to #747672, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>I wasn't aware that he was being charged with sexual misconduct, on V >ED>perjury. That's what's relevant. He has set a horrid example. God o V >ED>knows where the legal system will take it if he is let off the hook V >ED>this perjury thing. V > V >The perjury and sexual misconduct issues are interwined--he is being V >accused of committing perjury about his sexual misconduct. The only V >way he can be guilty of perjury is if in fact he sexually misbehaved V >and lied about it. He's already admitted to the misconduct. He's just screwing around with the meaning of "sexual relations", not to mention "is". V >And I am such a cynic. I see litigants committing perjury every day i V >the legal system. It's so common place that it's ridiculous. V > V >I will also tell you that whenever I prepared a client for a depositio V >I always instruct the client to listen to the question very carefully V >and to answer the questions as it is posed. I also instruct my client V >to NEVER volunteer any inforamtion. And oh yeah, I instruct my client V >to always tell the truth. That was one of the points he made in the tape, he was planning to be truthful but not helpful. A bit tacky, but nothing wrong with it. Still, this is the president of the United States. If Al D'Amato could get castigated for doing an impression of Lance Ito, and if he apologized while saying "A US Senator should be held to a higher standard", where does that leave us with Clinton and lying under oath? --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 9:13pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747688 To: Vida Re: Affirmative Action (Reply to #747683, Reply to #747677, Reply to #747668, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>V >In addition, I question whether even a truly "learning disabled" V >ED>V >should be given extra time to finish a bar exam. I believe the V >ED>V >to read and comprehend English is a job related skill for an att V >ED>V >And working within deadlines, working under pressure is definite V >ED>V >job related skill. V > V >ED>How did you feel about the trucking company that was forced to hire V >ED>epileptic driver? How is that different from a learning disabled la V > V >Is the epileipsy under control with medication? So long as the driver V >is taking medication I see no reason why he/she can not do the job. They were forced to hire him. He had a seizure while driving, cracked up the rig, killed someone, and the trucking company had their asses sued off. But the question remains.... If the future Clarence Darrow could demonstrate competence with the extra time, tape recorders and computers, how is that different from hiring an epileptic truck driver who takes medication to control the seizures. The truck drive might forget the medication; the lawyer might forget the tape recorder. Ad nausem. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 9:13pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747689 To: Vida Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747684, Reply to #747678, Reply to #747671, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>V >KK>It would have stayed with them had he taken Monica to his hou V >ED>V > V >ED>V >But that's exactly what he did! As long as he is President the V >ED>V >House is his home. V > V >ED>THE Oval Office is NOT his home! It is his place of business. His h V >ED>in another part of the building. It is very clearcut. V > V >Sounds like your splitting hairs to me. So long as the doors are V >closed and Monica consenting that how is it your business? Because I am paying him, paying for his office and he is doing it on my time. Suppose you are the partner in a law firm, and you hire an attorney as an associate. Then you find out that during the day, behind closed doors, he/she is playing push and tickle with a law student interning there for the summer. Maybe consensual, maybe harrassment (in terms of your power disparity). How happy are you going to feel when you find out that the associate that you are paying, not to mention the intern, is using your time and your premises for an activity like this? You are being cheated outright, plus you could get your ass caught in a harrassment suit which you had nothing to do with. The correct action is to fire the associate as much for cheating on his time sheet as to protect yourself from legal actions by the intern. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Wednesday, September 23, 1998 6:35am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747693 To: Editor Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747686, Reply to #747681, Reply to #747675, R*) (2 replies) ED>V >ED>Something that looked innocuous happened the other night, but watch ED>V >ED>it. A Miss America contestant was nearly disqualified because she c ED>V >ED>she was registered at the college she claimed to be registered at. ED>V >ED>presented an argument along the lines of "that depends on how you d ED>V >ED>registraiton". Sound familiar? I'd bet that you're going to be hear ED>V >ED>awful lot of this kind of defence. ED>V > ED>V >ED>Exactly how effective do you think this man can be any longer? Not ED>V >ED>effective I'd bet, and that means he has screwed up his job big tim ED>V > ED>V > ED>V >If he is not effective that's because the Republicans won't let him be ED>V >effective. In my opinion this whole affair is extremely dangerous ED>V >attempt by the Republicans to accomplish what they could not accomplis ED>V >in the voting booth. ED>Yup... that's right. The republicans got us stuck in Bosnia. The ED>Republicans made Clinton lie to the gay constituency and the Jewish ED>constituency. The Republicans abandoned the troops in Somalia. The ED>Republicans turned the grand jury testimony into a grammar lessons. And I ED>just plain can't figure out how they got him to do that thing with the ED>cigar while in the oval office. ED>Boy oh boy, that right wing conspiracy is sure powerful. Good thing we know ED>about that conspiracy, otherwise an objective observer might say that ED>the only way that anyone as bright as Clinton could get into this mess is ED>by being more interested in his personal agenda than in doing his job. Be cynical if you want. I call it as I see it. Clinton is not a prefect President but he is our President. The only reason why he is in so much trouble is because a politically motivated Special Prosecutor spent millions of our tax dollars to prove that he was a bad boy sexually. Doesn't that waste of money get you a tad bit upset? Date: Wednesday, September 23, 1998 6:38am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747694 To: Editor Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747687, Reply to #747682, Reply to #747676, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >ED>I wasn't aware that he was being charged with sexual misconduct, on ED>V >ED>perjury. That's what's relevant. He has set a horrid example. God o ED>V >ED>knows where the legal system will take it if he is let off the hook ED>V >ED>this perjury thing. ED>V > ED>V >The perjury and sexual misconduct issues are interwined--he is being ED>V >accused of committing perjury about his sexual misconduct. The only ED>V >way he can be guilty of perjury is if in fact he sexually misbehaved ED>V >and lied about it. ED>He's already admitted to the misconduct. He's just screwing around with the ED>meaning of "sexual relations", not to mention "is". "Screwing around" are the operative words. :) ED>V >And I am such a cynic. I see litigants committing perjury every day i ED>V >the legal system. It's so common place that it's ridiculous. ED>V > ED>V >I will also tell you that whenever I prepared a client for a depositio ED>V >I always instruct the client to listen to the question very carefully ED>V >and to answer the questions as it is posed. I also instruct my client ED>V >to NEVER volunteer any inforamtion. And oh yeah, I instruct my client ED>V >to always tell the truth. ED>That was one of the points he made in the tape, he was planning to be ED>truthful but not helpful. A bit tacky, but nothing wrong with it. Still, ED>this is the president of the United States. If Al D'Amato could get ED>castigated for doing an impression of Lance Ito, and if he apologized while ED>saying "A US Senator should be held to a higher standard", where does that ED>leave us with Clinton and lying under oath? That's the point. Clinton used word games to avoid lying under oath and to dodge telling the truth. As a politican and a lawyer, he is a master at doing that. That's the hypocrisy of the whole thing--we lawyers play those kind of word games all the time. Date: Wednesday, September 23, 1998 6:47am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747695 To: Editor Re: Affirmative Action (Reply to #747688, Reply to #747683, Reply to #747677, R*) ED>V >ED>V >In addition, I question whether even a truly "learning disabled" ED>V >ED>V >should be given extra time to finish a bar exam. I believe the ED>V >ED>V >to read and comprehend English is a job related skill for an att ED>V >ED>V >And working within deadlines, working under pressure is definite ED>V >ED>V >job related skill. ED>V > ED>V >ED>How did you feel about the trucking company that was forced to hire ED>V >ED>epileptic driver? How is that different from a learning disabled la ED>V > ED>V >Is the epileipsy under control with medication? So long as the driver ED>V >is taking medication I see no reason why he/she can not do the job. ED>They were forced to hire him. He had a seizure while driving, cracked up ED>the rig, killed someone, and the trucking company had their asses sued off. ED>But the question remains.... ED>If the future Clarence Darrow could demonstrate competence with the extra ED>time, tape recorders and computers, how is that different from hiring an ED>epileptic truck driver who takes medication to control the seizures. The ED>truck drive might forget the medication; the lawyer might forget the tape ED>recorder. Ad nausem. My understanding of disability discrimination is that if a person's disability renders that person incapable of performing a job, than it is not illegal to refuse to hire the person. Ie., it is not illegal (as far as I know) to refuse to hire a blind person to be a truck driver. As for your example, I don't know all the facts. For example, it makes a difference to me if the epilesy is under control with medication or not. If the epilesy is under control with medication than it is reasonable to "force" a company to hire an epilectic driver, assuming that he or she is otherwise qualified to drive a rig. On the other hand, if the epilesy is NOT under control with medication than this person would have no business driving under on the road. And when it comes to driving--there is no such thing as tape recorders, etc.--a person has to be able to safely drive with the existing technology that we have. Sure an epeletic might forget to take his medication. But I view that possibility more remote than the possibility that a "normal" person might drink alcholic beverages and drive. Date: Wednesday, September 23, 1998 6:48am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747696 To: Editor Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747689, Reply to #747684, Reply to #747678, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >ED>V >KK>It would have stayed with them had he taken Monica to his hou ED>V >ED>V > ED>V >ED>V >But that's exactly what he did! As long as he is President the ED>V >ED>V >House is his home. ED>V > ED>V >ED>THE Oval Office is NOT his home! It is his place of business. His h ED>V >ED>in another part of the building. It is very clearcut. ED>V > ED>V >Sounds like your splitting hairs to me. So long as the doors are ED>V >closed and Monica consenting that how is it your business? ED>Because I am paying him, paying for his office and he is doing it on my ED>time. ED>Suppose you are the partner in a law firm, and you hire an attorney as an ED>associate. Then you find out that during the day, behind closed doors, ED>he/she is playing push and tickle with a law student interning there for ED>the summer. Maybe consensual, maybe harrassment (in terms of your power ED>disparity). How happy are you going to feel when you find out that the ED>associate that you are paying, not to mention the intern, is using your ED>time and your premises for an activity like this? You are being cheated ED>outright, plus you could get your ass caught in a harrassment suit which ED>you had nothing to do with. The correct action is to fire the associate as ED>much for cheating on his time sheet as to protect yourself from legal ED>actions by the intern. If you fired every politican that had sex on your time there would be no one left in office. Date: Wednesday, September 23, 1998 4:54pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 747700 To: Vida Re: Affirmative Action (Reply to #747670, Reply to #747652, Reply to #747645, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>ED>V >This story is clearly insanity. But I take exception to labeling t VI>KK>ED>V >topic "affirmative action" because this is clearly an abuse of a VI>KK>ED>V >legitimate law that was passed in order to prevent discrimination VI>KK>ED>V >against truly disabled people. VI>KK>ED>Agreed on the first point. The trouble with your objection counsellor VI>KK>ED>that based on the way the law is written, this IS a story about affirm VI>KK>ED>action. VI>KK>That is why I was quite surprised by Vida's reaction! VI>I think the story is about ABUSE of affirmative action! The reason why VI>I challenged Editor's title is because I felt he was confusing the VI>abuse with the real thing. The way I understood it was that the individual in question DID have a reading disability. Date: Wednesday, September 23, 1998 4:59pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 747701 To: Vida Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747693, Reply to #747686, Reply to #747681, R*) (1 reply) VI>Be cynical if you want. I call it as I see it. Clinton is not a VI>prefect President but he is our President. The only reason why he is VI>in so much trouble is because a politically motivated Special VI>Prosecutor spent millions of our tax dollars to prove that he was a bad VI>boy sexually. Doesn't that waste of money get you a tad bit upset? Clinton is in trouble only because of his own poor judgement! BTW, Starr did not want the job he was given. He wanted to quit a long time ago. Who told him not to quit? And the reason our tax dollars were spent was because Clinton lied! Had he not lied, this thing would have been over a long time ago. Clinton should pay us all back for the money HE made us spend. Date: Wednesday, September 23, 1998 10:32pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747705 To: Vida Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747693, Reply to #747686, Reply to #747681, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>Boy oh boy, that right wing conspiracy is sure powerful. Good thing V >ED>about that conspiracy, otherwise an objective observer might say th V >ED>the only way that anyone as bright as Clinton could get into this m V >ED>by being more interested in his personal agenda than in doing his j V > V >Be cynical if you want. I call it as I see it. Clinton is not a V >prefect President but he is our President. The only reason why he is V >in so much trouble is because a politically motivated Special V >Prosecutor spent millions of our tax dollars to prove that he was a ba V >boy sexually. Doesn't that waste of money get you a tad bit upset? Yup, it sure does. I'm going nuts trying to figure out how he got a free pass on selling technology to China, trampling the campaign finance laws, using the FBI for personal political purposes. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Wednesday, September 23, 1998 10:32pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747706 To: Vida Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747694, Reply to #747687, Reply to #747682, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>That was one of the points he made in the tape, he was planning to V >ED>truthful but not helpful. A bit tacky, but nothing wrong with it. S V >ED>this is the president of the United States. If Al D'Amato could get V >ED>castigated for doing an impression of Lance Ito, and if he apologiz V >ED>saying "A US Senator should be held to a higher standard", where do V >ED>leave us with Clinton and lying under oath? V > V >That's the point. Clinton used word games to avoid lying under oath V >and to dodge telling the truth. As a politican and a lawyer, he is a V >master at doing that. That's the hypocrisy of the whole thing--we V >lawyers play those kind of word games all the time. And what about the word games he played when he faced the American public had said "I am not having sexual relations with that woman". Oh, yes, I forgot. There is no "controlling legal authority" regarding bald faced lies to the voters. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Wednesday, September 23, 1998 10:32pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747707 To: Vida Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747696, Reply to #747689, Reply to #747684, R*) (1 reply) V >If you fired every politican that had sex on your time there would be V >no one left in office. On my time, in my office, with an almost underaged employee who was also being paid by me. That's pretty extreme. I doubt if 535 representatives and Senators are guilty of that. For heaven's sake, transplant that into any business and you'd go nuts. Because this guy's presence in the Whitehouse helps you with a small amount of legislation you turn a blind eye to a smashing of half the ten commandments and 80% of the rules of ethical behaviour. And then wonder why he can't get anything done? --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Thursday, September 24, 1998 2:23am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Akira Msg#: 747708 To: Vida Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747643) (1 reply) I'm actually getting more worried about the fact that the "right" that we supposedly all have is under fire by the president of the country itself. 1- There was no reason for Starr to have asked about that aspect of his personal life in the first place. (I'm sorry, but I would consider pujuring myself if I thought my marriage was at stake, no matter what definition I had in mind) 2- There is no reason we should all have all this information about this man's personal life forced upon us (And if you aren't thinking it's being tube fed right up our nostrils and down our esophagi--- assuming thats the plural---- then it's time to wake up and pop the Viagra) 3- There is even less of a reason that children have access and be bombarded with his sex life. (I dealth with kids age 8 who knew the details of certian things that would make Hugh Heffner do a double take) 4- That's no way to treat a cigar. (If you understand this, then you've just proved 1,2, and 3) 5- This witch hunt has got to end. The man is as capable of completing his term as when he started. If he's not, then one who has a sex life (and quite an imagination) is not capable of running the country. A Tired Greg -Who doesn't trust a person who, when under pressure, doesn't wanna screw. Date: Thursday, September 24, 1998 2:31am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Akira Msg#: 747709 To: Editor Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747656, Reply to #747653, Reply to #747649, R*) (1 reply) ED>I think there is real danger here. You know how lawyers love precedents. ED>Here is the President of the United States, a man who is supposed to set a ED>HIGHER standard, committing perjury and maybe walking away from it. But do you think this is the first (or last) time that someone who was in office has lied to the American public? I think of all the bullsh*t that has gone down before, I would actually consider his possible perjury a sign of mere humanity. Of all the things one could lie about while in office, I'd rather this be the one. Why? 1- He's married. 2- He's famous and he has a daughter who is in college who now has to walk to and sit in classes in which her father's sex life is known to everyone in the country. And you thought that funny dress your mom wore to that PTA meeting was embarassing? Greg -Not necessarily pro-Clinton, but has a few opinons and one rectum. Date: Thursday, September 24, 1998 2:45am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Akira Msg#: 747710 To: Vida Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747669, Reply to #747651, Reply to #747643) (1 reply) VI>I take exception to your comment that no other executive would keep his VI>job even after one sexual incidient with a 21 year old intern. I think VI>this kind of thing happens very, very frequently. That's the VI>hyprocrisy of the whole thing--almost every politican around is guilty VI>of the same kind of behavior if not worse. Agreed. This type of thing does happen a lot more than we know of. Also agree with the second point. If we had the money and a team of lawyers dedicated to everyone holding an elected seat, we would probably find somethings comparable or even worse in 99% of them. We, as the greatest fast food culture on the face of the planet, tend to just absorb whats handed to us. I'm sure that the majority of the US hasn't started to even think of what thier senator or congressman or (put in office here) is doing. VI>I also think that to say that the President has no right of privacy VI>wihin the White House sets a very dangerous precedent. VI>Who would want to live within that kind of glass bowl for four years? VI>The level of scrunity that we give to our President and to our VI>Presidential candidates is already discouraging many able and competent VI>people from running for the office. Ie., I firmly believe that Colin VI>Powell did not run for office because there is some skelton in his VI>closet or his wife's closet that he does not want to be exposed. So VI>this increased level of scrunity would only further serve as VI>discouragement to competent people to run for the office of President. It is setting a VERY dangerous precedent. It's not as if people have a hard time running for the office with skeletons coming up already. It would scare me to have a president who could live up to the pressure of having every minute of his life in office under scrutiny. That's the type of crap that breaks a normal human. The type of person who can endure that has serious problems AND is very good at hiding things which makes that type of person that much more unappetizing. As humans, not only do we need human contact, but we also need privacy. That's why no one lives in a glass house (other than the fact that you can't throw stones). As for Colin Powell, yeah, I'm sure he had stuff that he wants to keep private. Who doesn't? But, at the risk of starting a massive tangent: Colin Powell would need a good vice-president cause he/she would end up as president before too long. I'm sorry, but I don't think the US is ready for a black president. As much as I hate to say it, he'd probably be killed before too long. Greg -Who finds some truth in Eddie Murphy's skit on Jesse Jackson becoming president. Date: Thursday, September 24, 1998 6:46am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747712 To: Kkid Re: Affirmative Action (Reply to #747700, Reply to #747670, Reply to #747652, R*) KK>VI>KK>ED>V >This story is clearly insanity. But I take exception to labelin KK>VI>KK>ED>V >topic "affirmative action" because this is clearly an abuse of a KK>VI>KK>ED>V >legitimate law that was passed in order to prevent discriminatio KK>VI>KK>ED>V >against truly disabled people. KK>VI>KK>ED>Agreed on the first point. The trouble with your objection counsell KK>VI>KK>ED>that based on the way the law is written, this IS a story about aff KK>VI>KK>ED>action. KK>VI>KK>That is why I was quite surprised by Vida's reaction! KK>VI>I think the story is about ABUSE of affirmative action! The reason why KK>VI>I challenged Editor's title is because I felt he was confusing the KK>VI>abuse with the real thing. KK>The way I understood it was that the individual in question DID have a KK>reading disability. Only according to her own "hired gun" experts. The experts retained by the testing agency found no disability. Date: Thursday, September 24, 1998 6:54am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747713 To: Kkid Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747701, Reply to #747693, Reply to #747686, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>Be cynical if you want. I call it as I see it. Clinton is not a KK>VI>prefect President but he is our President. The only reason why he is KK>VI>in so much trouble is because a politically motivated Special KK>VI>Prosecutor spent millions of our tax dollars to prove that he was a bad KK>VI>boy sexually. Doesn't that waste of money get you a tad bit upset? KK>Clinton is in trouble only because of his own poor judgement! KK>BTW, Starr did not want the job he was given. He wanted to quit a long KK>time ago. Who told him not to quit? KK>And the reason our tax dollars were spent was because Clinton lied! Had KK>he not lied, this thing would have been over a long time ago. KK>Clinton should pay us all back for the money HE made us spend. I disagree totally with your statement that Starr wanted to quit a long time ago. It that was the case he would have folded up his tent when his orginal mandate--to investigate allegations of irregularities with the Whitewater development came up empty. I think it is clear that Starr came to his job with a political agenda--to get Clinton. When he couldn't find any thing that would "stick" in a court of law about Whitewater than he looked into allegations about the Vince Foster death. Than when that came up empty he looked into Clinton's biggest weakness--Clinton's sex life. So, of course, Starr could find evidence that Clinton lied up his sex life. The point is that no citizen should be put into a position where he/or she has to answer graphic questions about his/her sexual practices to a federal grand jury. It's an outrageous abuse of judicary power, in my opinion. And it has very scary implications for the civil liberties of all of us. Date: Thursday, September 24, 1998 6:57am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747714 To: Editor Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747705, Reply to #747693, Reply to #747686, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >ED>Boy oh boy, that right wing conspiracy is sure powerful. Good thing ED>V >ED>about that conspiracy, otherwise an objective observer might say th ED>V >ED>the only way that anyone as bright as Clinton could get into this m ED>V >ED>by being more interested in his personal agenda than in doing his j ED>V > ED>V >Be cynical if you want. I call it as I see it. Clinton is not a ED>V >prefect President but he is our President. The only reason why he is ED>V >in so much trouble is because a politically motivated Special ED>V >Prosecutor spent millions of our tax dollars to prove that he was a ba ED>V >boy sexually. Doesn't that waste of money get you a tad bit upset? ED>Yup, it sure does. I'm going nuts trying to figure out how he got a free ED>pass on selling technology to China, trampling the campaign finance laws, ED>using the FBI for personal political purposes. Nixon prefected the practices of using the FBI for personal political purposes and selling technology to our so called "enemies". Clinton is just playing the political game as practiced by ALL his predecessors. Date: Thursday, September 24, 1998 6:58am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747715 To: Editor Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747706, Reply to #747694, Reply to #747687, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >ED>That was one of the points he made in the tape, he was planning to ED>V >ED>truthful but not helpful. A bit tacky, but nothing wrong with it. S ED>V >ED>this is the president of the United States. If Al D'Amato could get ED>V >ED>castigated for doing an impression of Lance Ito, and if he apologiz ED>V >ED>saying "A US Senator should be held to a higher standard", where do ED>V >ED>leave us with Clinton and lying under oath? ED>V > ED>V >That's the point. Clinton used word games to avoid lying under oath ED>V >and to dodge telling the truth. As a politican and a lawyer, he is a ED>V >master at doing that. That's the hypocrisy of the whole thing--we ED>V >lawyers play those kind of word games all the time. ED>And what about the word games he played when he faced the American public ED>had said "I am not having sexual relations with that woman". Oh, yes, I ED>forgot. There is no "controlling legal authority" regarding bald faced lies ED>to the voters. We, as voters, had no right to ask that kind of question to the man. People lie about this kind of dalliances all the time. Date: Thursday, September 24, 1998 7:01am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747716 To: Editor Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747707, Reply to #747696, Reply to #747689, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >If you fired every politican that had sex on your time there would be ED>V >no one left in office. ED>On my time, in my office, with an almost underaged employee who was also ED>being paid by me. That's pretty extreme. I doubt if 535 representatives ED>and Senators are guilty of that. For heaven's sake, transplant that into ED>any business and you'd go nuts. ED>Because this guy's presence in the Whitehouse helps you with a small amount ED>of legislation you turn a blind eye to a smashing of half the ED>ten commandments and 80% of the rules of ethical behaviour. And then wonder ED>why he can't get anything done? I judge a person by his/her job performance. I don't think there is any evidence that any of Clinton's "hanky panky" in any way implacted on his ability to do his job. And yes, I do believe that this kind of behavior is very, very common among powerful men. The more power a man has, the more likely he is likely to engage in this kind of conduct. Date: Thursday, September 24, 1998 7:04am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747717 To: Akira Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747708, Reply to #747643) AK>-Who doesn't trust a person who, when under pressure, doesn't wanna AK>screw. I say 'amen", especially to the last point. I have found from pesonal experiences that when the going gets tough, that nothing relieves the tension like good sex! :) Date: Thursday, September 24, 1998 7:22am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747718 To: Akira Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747710, Reply to #747669, Reply to #747651, R*) (2 replies) AK>VI>I take exception to your comment that no other executive would keep his AK>VI>job even after one sexual incidient with a 21 year old intern. I think AK>VI>this kind of thing happens very, very frequently. That's the AK>VI>hyprocrisy of the whole thing--almost every politican around is guilty AK>VI>of the same kind of behavior if not worse. AK>Agreed. This type of thing does happen a lot more than we know of. AK>Also agree with the second point. If we had the money and a team of AK>lawyers dedicated to everyone holding an elected seat, we would AK>probably find somethings comparable or even worse in 99% of them. AK>We, as the greatest fast food culture on the face of the planet, tend AK>to just absorb whats handed to us. I'm sure that the majority of the US AK>hasn't started to even think of what thier senator or congressman or AK>(put in office here) is doing. But should we care? I thought it was very funny or very ironic when Barney Frank, of all, people, agreed to release the President's video tape on the air. Barney Frank is the senior Democrat on the House Judicary Committee. He is also a gay man (openly gay) who has been accused of keeping male prositutes in his office. AK>VI>I also think that to say that the President has no right of privacy AK>VI>wihin the White House sets a very dangerous precedent. I think so far the rest of the country agrees on this point. I heard on the radio news this morning that the latest poll should that only 23% of the people polled think Clinton should be removed from office. 43% percent said that we should just drop the whole thing. 44% said that Clinton should be censured. Now these figures are "guesstimate" from my memory--I could be way off on the numbers but I think I remember the breakdown more or less accurately. I fall within the group that say that Clinton should be censured. Yes, I think he was clearly wrong for lieing to the American people. When he was asked about whether he had an affair with Lewinsky in Decemeber and January he should have just said outright that we had no right to ask that kind of question to a President. He showed bad judgement by mixing sex in his offical function. But that hardly falls within the Constitutional definition of "high crimes and misdeamnors" in my opinion. AK>VI>Who would want to live within that kind of glass bowl for four years? AK>VI>The level of scrunity that we give to our President and to our AK>VI>Presidential candidates is already discouraging many able and competent AK>VI>people from running for the office. Ie., I firmly believe that Colin AK>VI>Powell did not run for office because there is some skelton in his AK>VI>closet or his wife's closet that he does not want to be exposed. So AK>VI>this increased level of scrunity would only further serve as AK>VI>discouragement to competent people to run for the office of President. AK>It is setting a VERY dangerous precedent. It's not as if people have a AK>hard time running for the office with skeletons coming up already. AK>It would scare me to have a president who could live up to the pressure AK>of having every minute of his life in office under scrutiny. That's the AK>type of crap that breaks a normal human. The type of person who can AK>endure that has serious problems AND is very good at hiding things EXACTLY!!!! That's the point. What we are doing is to ENCOURAGE future Clintons. That's the only personality type that can survive this kind of scruntity. AK>which makes that type of person that much more unappetizing. Sorry to interrupt you but you made such a good point. :) AK>As humans, not only do we need human contact, but we also need privacy. AK>That's why no one lives in a glass house (other than the fact that you AK>can't throw stones). AK>As for Colin Powell, yeah, I'm sure he had stuff that he wants to keep AK>private. Who doesn't? AK>But, at the risk of starting a massive tangent: AK>Colin Powell would need a good vice-president cause he/she would end up AK>as president before too long. AK>I'm sorry, but I don't think the US is ready for a black president. As AK>much as I hate to say it, he'd probably be killed before too long. I hope you are wrong about that. I agree that America is a racist country that is probably not ready for a black President. But Powell just might have been able to do the trick. But it's impossible to say. He pulled himself out the race to protect his privacy. AK>Greg AK>-Who finds some truth in Eddie Murphy's skit on Jesse Jackson becoming AK>president. I haven't seen the skit. But Jessee Jackson has NO chance of becoming President. He is too much of a "radical" to be elected to any nationwide political office. Date: Thursday, September 24, 1998 9:36pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747720 To: Akira Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747709, Reply to #747656, Reply to #747653, R*) A >ED>I think there is real danger here. You know how lawyers love preced A >ED>Here is the President of the United States, a man who is supposed t A >ED>HIGHER standard, committing perjury and maybe walking away from it. A > A >But do you think this is the first (or last) time that someone who was A >in office has lied to the American public? A >I think of all the bullsh*t that has gone down before, I would actuall A >consider his possible perjury a sign of mere humanity. A >Of all the things one could lie about while in office, I'd rather this A >be the one. I believe that this is the first time that a President stood up in public, and in words of one syllable told such a whopper. And then repeated it under oath. And then admitted to it. And then got angry in public when caught. Would you prefer Johnson, who told bigger and bigger lies until he faked an incident that started an entire war? Wouldn't it have been nice to shut him down earlier? --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Thursday, September 24, 1998 9:36pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747721 To: Vida Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747714, Reply to #747705, Reply to #747693, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>Yup, it sure does. I'm going nuts trying to figure out how he got a V >ED>pass on selling technology to China, trampling the campaign finance V >ED>using the FBI for personal political purposes. V > V >Nixon prefected the practices of using the FBI for personal political V >purposes and selling technology to our so called "enemies". Clinton i V >just playing the political game as practiced by ALL his predecessors. So you are using Nixon's actions as a precedent to justify Clinton's actions? I have to agree there. By the way, I forget, what happened to Nixon? --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Thursday, September 24, 1998 9:37pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747722 To: Vida Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747715, Reply to #747706, Reply to #747694, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>And what about the word games he played when he faced the American V >ED>had said "I am not having sexual relations with that woman". Oh, ye V >ED>forgot. There is no "controlling legal authority" regarding bald fa V >ED>to the voters. V > V >We, as voters, had no right to ask that kind of question to the man. V >People lie about this kind of dalliances all the time. We as voters, have the right to believe, that when the President of the United States answers that question that ends with "so help you", he is telling the truth. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Thursday, September 24, 1998 9:37pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747723 To: Vida Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747716, Reply to #747707, Reply to #747696, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>Because this guy's presence in the Whitehouse helps you with a smal V >ED>of legislation you turn a blind eye to a smashing of half the V >ED>ten commandments and 80% of the rules of ethical behaviour. And the V >ED>why he can't get anything done? V > V >I judge a person by his/her job performance. I don't think there is V >any evidence that any of Clinton's "hanky panky" in any way implacted V >on his ability to do his job. And yes, I do believe that this kind of V >behavior is very, very common among powerful men. The more power a ma V >has, the more likely he is likely to engage in this kind of conduct. So you would balance his veto on the partial birth abortion ban against his mess in Somalia, Bosnia, his broken promises to gays, Jews and countless others. This man could LITERALLY destroy the world. He allowed one woman pilot to get canned because she flew ONE dangerous airplane. You are an officer of the court, and you give him a free pass on lying under oath, twice, because "everyone does it"? --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Thursday, September 24, 1998 9:37pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747724 To: Vida Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747718, Reply to #747710, Reply to #747669, R*) (1 reply) V >I fall within the group that say that Clinton should be censured. Yes V >I think he was clearly wrong for lieing to the American people. When V >he was asked about whether he had an affair with Lewinsky in Decemeber Censure is a powerful punishment. Do you know that only one American president has been censured by Congress? Want to know his name? Pick up your wallet and take out a $20 bill. His picture is on it. Yup, censure certainly is a heavy penalty. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Saturday, September 26, 1998 6:15am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747732 To: Editor Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747721, Reply to #747714, Reply to #747705, R*) ED>V >ED>Yup, it sure does. I'm going nuts trying to figure out how he got a ED>V >ED>pass on selling technology to China, trampling the campaign finance ED>V >ED>using the FBI for personal political purposes. ED>V > ED>V >Nixon prefected the practices of using the FBI for personal political ED>V >purposes and selling technology to our so called "enemies". Clinton i ED>V >just playing the political game as practiced by ALL his predecessors. ED>So you are using Nixon's actions as a precedent to justify Clinton's ED>actions? I have to agree there. By the way, I forget, what happened to ED>Nixon? Date: Saturday, September 26, 1998 6:21am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747733 To: Editor Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747722, Reply to #747715, Reply to #747706, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >ED>And what about the word games he played when he faced the American ED>V >ED>had said "I am not having sexual relations with that woman". Oh, ye ED>V >ED>forgot. There is no "controlling legal authority" regarding bald fa ED>V >ED>to the voters. ED>V > ED>V >We, as voters, had no right to ask that kind of question to the man. ED>V >People lie about this kind of dalliances all the time. ED>We as voters, have the right to believe, that when the President of the ED>United States answers that question that ends with "so help you", he is ED>telling the truth. I agree with you. But are you going to impeach the man because he tried to play a cute "lawyer's game" by giving evasive answers to a deposition? Are even if he lied about having using a cigar as a sex toy? Should any person be ever asked by a federal grand jury about those kinds of intimate behavior unless he or she is accused of rape and the rape involved the use of a sex toy? Date: Saturday, September 26, 1998 6:31am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747734 To: Editor Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747723, Reply to #747716, Reply to #747707, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >ED>Because this guy's presence in the Whitehouse helps you with a smal ED>V >ED>of legislation you turn a blind eye to a smashing of half the ED>V >ED>ten commandments and 80% of the rules of ethical behaviour. And the ED>V >ED>why he can't get anything done? ED>V > ED>V >I judge a person by his/her job performance. I don't think there is ED>V >any evidence that any of Clinton's "hanky panky" in any way implacted ED>V >on his ability to do his job. And yes, I do believe that this kind of ED>V >behavior is very, very common among powerful men. The more power a ma ED>V >has, the more likely he is likely to engage in this kind of conduct. ED>So you would balance his veto on the partial birth abortion ban against his ED>mess in Somalia, Bosnia, his broken promises to gays, Jews and countless ED>others. This man could LITERALLY destroy the world. He allowed one woman ED>pilot to get canned because she flew ONE dangerous airplane. You are an ED>officer of the court, and you give him a free pass on lying under oath, ED>twice, because "everyone does it"? ED>--- Of course, I am upset about all of Clinton's lies. I am VERY upset about how he tried to sell himself as a progressive to us in the left and than turned around and caved in on "welfare reform", affirmative action, etc., etc. I think the analogy you draw to the Kelly McGennis (spelling?) case, the woman pilot who was canned from flying the military airplane because she had an affair with a married man is on the mark. But there is a difference between a person in the military and a civilian President. We do NOT have a military junta, thank goodness! When a person joins the military he or she submits him/herself to military discipline. If the code of military conduct says you can not have an adulterous relationship, than you can not have an adulterous relationship. If you have one and get caught you are subject to the punishment that the military provides. Date: Saturday, September 26, 1998 6:33am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747735 To: Editor Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747724, Reply to #747718, Reply to #747710, R*) ED>V >I fall within the group that say that Clinton should be censured. Yes ED>V >I think he was clearly wrong for lieing to the American people. When ED>V >he was asked about whether he had an affair with Lewinsky in Decemeber ED>Censure is a powerful punishment. Do you know that only one American ED>president has been censured by Congress? Want to know his name? Pick up ED>your wallet and take out a $20 bill. His picture is on it. Yup, censure ED>certainly is a heavy penalty. ED>--- I believe it is the appropriate punishment here. Fine the man and censure him and let's get on with trying to solve the real problems of the country. Now this whole charade is just "bread and circus". Date: Saturday, September 26, 1998 1:56pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747737 To: Vida Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747733, Reply to #747722, Reply to #747715, R*) (1 reply) V >D>V >ED>And what about the word games he played when he faced the Amer V >ED>V >ED>had said "I am not having sexual relations with that woman". V >ED>V >ED>forgot. There is no "controlling legal authority" regarding b V >ED>V >ED>to the voters. V >ED>V > V >ED>V >We, as voters, had no right to ask that kind of question to the V >ED>V >People lie about this kind of dalliances all the time. V > V >ED>We as voters, have the right to believe, that when the President of V >ED>United States answers that question that ends with "so help you", h V >ED>telling the truth. V >I agree with you. But are you going to impeach the man because he tri V >to play a cute "lawyer's game" by giving evasive answers to a V >deposition? Are even if he lied about having using a cigar as a sex V >toy? Should any person be ever asked by a federal grand jury about V >those kinds of intimate behavior unless he or she is accused of rape a V >the rape involved the use of a sex toy? I'm not an attorney, but it seems to me there are ways to avoid answering questions like that and still be truthful. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Saturday, September 26, 1998 1:56pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747738 To: Vida Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747734, Reply to #747723, Reply to #747716, R*) (1 reply) V >Of course, I am upset about all of Clinton's lies. I am VERY upset V >about how he tried to sell himself as a progressive to us in the left V >and than turned around and caved in on "welfare reform", affirmative V >action, etc., etc. I think the analogy you draw to the Kelly McGennis V >(spelling?) case, the woman pilot who was canned from flying the V >military airplane because she had an affair with a married man is on t V >mark. But there is a difference between a person in the military and V >a civilian President. We do NOT have a military junta, thank goodness Uh.... I hate to interrupt, but as you may recall Clinton's attornies asked that he be relieved from testifying in the Civil case because as commander in chief he was part of the military. Can't have it both ways. V >When a person joins the military he or she submits him/herself to V >military discipline. If the code of military conduct says you can not V >have an adulterous relationship, than you can not have an adulterous V >relationship. If you have one and get caught you are subject to the V >punishment that the military provides. Yup... and the criminal code says that you don't lie to a grand jury after you answer "yes" to "so help you". --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Saturday, September 26, 1998 1:56pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747739 To: Vida Re: OK - "not" AA (1 reply) The Disability Edge When you think about the Americans with Disabilities Act, think about the case of Marilyn Bartlett. Bartlett wants to be a lawyer, but she has failed the New York bar exam five times. From the first, she applied for special accommodations under the Americans with Disabilities Act, claiming that she suffers from a learning disability that impairs her reading. Bartlett's claim of severe difficulty in reading would seem to disqualify her from becoming a lawyer. After all, lawyers need to assimilate lots of information, most of it by reading. Bartlett reads very slowly and tends to lose her place often. While reading aloud in court, she confused the words "indicted" and "indicated." Should she get special advantages in trying to pass the bar exam? The New York State Board of Law Examiners said no, on the findings of a reading specialist who tested her and decided her problem was a mild one, not qualifying as a disability. Bartlett sued in federal District Court and won. A judge ruled that she had a right to help because she couldn't read nearly as well as other aspiring lawyers. The judge found that Bartlett has a "defect that significantly restricts her ability to . . . decode the written word." The judge also said that reading is not essential to being a lawyer, since some attorneys are blind. (But blind attorneys do read in Braille.) Bartlett took the bar exam with accommodations, including 50% more time, questions printed in large type, use of a computer, a private room and an assistant to help her with the test. She failed anyway, complaining that the assistant distracted her with unnecessary noise, mostly by unwrapping food and munching loudly. A few weeks ago, she won another appeal. Now she will take the test a sixth time, with no assistant but double time allowed. If she fails, her lawyer says, she might go back to court for more accommodations. What's wrong with this? With the help of its own people (judges), the legal profession is losing control of its minimum standards for entering the field. Under pressure of ADA litigation, look for accommodations to be granted to apparently unqualified can didates for medical board exams and other forms of licensing. The traits that use to disqualify candidates inability to function on crucial tasks are now legally positioned as advantages or conditions that call for various forms of help. For example, a law firm may be required to hire a reader solely to help a lawyer with a reading problem. The cost of litigation will play a role, too. Fighting cases like Bartlett's means high legal bills and the possibility of paying compensatory damages as well. Under this pressure, it may be easier for the professions to shrug and grant accommodations to most applicants. Walter Olson, an expert in employment law, sees the prospect of two tracks for doctors and lawyers — one for those who meet announced professional standards, another for those meeting more relaxed performance levels because of ADA litigation. And it might be hard for clients and patients to discover which track their own lawyers and doctors took to become professionals. "ADA has the potential to force the rethinking — and watering down — of every imaginable standard of competence, whether ofm ind, body or character," Olson writes in his book, "The Excuse Factory." Objecting to a character flaw is dicey because almost all bad behavior can be construed as the result or expression of a disability. Rude behavior, for instance, might be the result of missed social cues or boorishness, known as dyssemia. So almost any punishment of objectionable behavior can be a violation of disability law. The broader problem is that nobody is sure how to distinguish between people with genuine learning disabilities and those who are underachievers, lazy, not too bright or just faking it to take advantage of ADA. Some creative students claim dubious disabilities such as dysrationalia (illogical thinking) or dysgraphia (bad handwriting). In many high schools, claims of learning disability have become a competitive sport played by parents who want their children to have the extra edge of more time on tests and therefore a chance to get higher marks. Often it takes no more than a doctor's note. A large wave of students who came to rely on these accommodations in high school is now hitting the colleges. Graduate schools and the professions are next. Original Publication Date: 09/26/1998 ------------------- Shessh............... --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Sunday, September 27, 1998 3:29am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747744 To: Editor Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747737, Reply to #747733, Reply to #747722, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >D>V >ED>And what about the word games he played when he faced the Amer ED>V >ED>V >ED>had said "I am not having sexual relations with that woman". ED>V >ED>V >ED>forgot. There is no "controlling legal authority" regarding b ED>V >ED>V >ED>to the voters. ED>V >ED>V > ED>V >ED>V >We, as voters, had no right to ask that kind of question to the ED>V >ED>V >People lie about this kind of dalliances all the time. ED>V > ED>V >ED>We as voters, have the right to believe, that when the President of ED>V >ED>United States answers that question that ends with "so help you", h ED>V >ED>telling the truth. ED>V >I agree with you. But are you going to impeach the man because he tri ED>V >to play a cute "lawyer's game" by giving evasive answers to a ED>V >deposition? Are even if he lied about having using a cigar as a sex ED>V >toy? Should any person be ever asked by a federal grand jury about ED>V >those kinds of intimate behavior unless he or she is accused of rape a ED>V >the rape involved the use of a sex toy? ED>I'm not an attorney, but it seems to me there are ways to avoid answering ED>questions like that and still be truthful. ED>--- Yeah, sure there's the way. It's called "taking the Fifth" or "pleading the Fifth Amendment". It would have been political suicede for Clinton to do so. But you are missing the point my friend. The point is that no grand jury should be allowed to ask those kinds of questions to a person unless there is a very, very compelling reason to do it. Date: Sunday, September 27, 1998 3:40am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747745 To: Editor Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747738, Reply to #747734, Reply to #747723, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >Of course, I am upset about all of Clinton's lies. I am VERY upset ED>V >about how he tried to sell himself as a progressive to us in the left ED>V >and than turned around and caved in on "welfare reform", affirmative ED>V >action, etc., etc. I think the analogy you draw to the Kelly McGennis ED>V >(spelling?) case, the woman pilot who was canned from flying the ED>V >military airplane because she had an affair with a married man is on t ED>V >mark. But there is a difference between a person in the military and ED>V >a civilian President. We do NOT have a military junta, thank goodness ED>Uh.... I hate to interrupt, but as you may recall Clinton's attornies asked ED>that he be relieved from testifying in the Civil case because as commander ED>in chief he was part of the military. Can't have it both ways. I seem to recall that their main argument against testifying in the Paula Jones case was had to do with seperation of powers--that the Executive branch of the government can not be compelled to take an action by the judiciary. Their other argument was that as President Clinton had too many duties and responsiblities to be compelled to take time out to be deposed. I don't remember hearing anything about the argument that as commander in chief Clinton couldn't be subpeoned. And certainly no one in their right mind would expect any civilian to act in accordance to the rules of military discipline. ED>V >When a person joins the military he or she submits him/herself to ED>V >military discipline. If the code of military conduct says you can not ED>V >have an adulterous relationship, than you can not have an adulterous ED>V >relationship. If you have one and get caught you are subject to the ED>V >punishment that the military provides. ED>Yup... and the criminal code says that you don't lie to a grand jury after ED>you answer "yes" to "so help you". My favorite scene from Casablanca comes to mind, my friend. You know the one where Louie says " I'm shocked, shocked to see gambling going around in here." and then gets his winnings handed to him. :) Date: Sunday, September 27, 1998 3:53am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747746 To: Editor Re: OK - "not" AA (Reply to #747739) (1 reply) ED>The Disability Edge ED>When you think about the Americans with Disabilities Act, think about ED>the case of Marilyn Bartlett. Bartlett wants to be a lawyer, but she has ED>failed the New York bar exam five times. From the first, she applied for ED>special accommodations under the Americans with Disabilities Act, ED>claiming that she suffers from a learning disability that impairs her ED>reading. ED>Bartlett's claim of severe difficulty in reading would seem to ED>disqualify her from becoming a lawyer. After all, lawyers need to ED>assimilate lots of information, most of it by reading. Bartlett reads ED>very slowly and tends to lose her place often. While reading aloud in ED>court, she confused the words "indicted" and "indicated." ED>Should she get special advantages in trying to pass the bar exam? The ED>New York State Board of Law Examiners said no, on the findings of a ED>reading specialist who tested her and decided her problem was a mild ED>one, not qualifying as a disability. ED>Bartlett sued in federal District Court and won. A judge ruled that she ED>had a right to help because she couldn't read nearly as well as other ED>aspiring lawyers. The judge found that Bartlett has a "defect that ED>significantly restricts her ability to . . . decode the written word." ED>The judge also said that reading is not essential to being a lawyer, ED>since some attorneys are blind. (But blind attorneys do read in ED>Braille.) ED>Bartlett took the bar exam with accommodations, including 50% more time, ED>questions printed in large type, use of a computer, a private room and ED>an assistant to help her with the test. She failed anyway, complaining ED>that the assistant distracted her with unnecessary noise, mostly by ED>unwrapping food and munching loudly. A few weeks ago, she won another ED>appeal. Now she will take the test a sixth time, with no assistant but ED>double time allowed. If she fails, her lawyer says, she might go back to ED>court for more accommodations. ED>What's wrong with this? With the help of its own people (judges), the ED>legal profession is losing control of its minimum standards for entering ED>the field. Under pressure of ADA litigation, look for accommodations to ED>be granted to apparently unqualified can didates for medical board exams ED>and other forms of licensing. The traits that use to disqualify ED>candidates inability to function on crucial tasks are now legally ED>positioned as advantages or conditions that call for various forms of ED>help. ED>For example, a law firm may be required to hire a reader solely to help ED>a lawyer with a reading problem. The cost of litigation will play a ED>role, too. Fighting cases like Bartlett's means high legal bills and the ED>possibility of paying compensatory damages as well. Under this pressure, ED>it may be easier for the professions to shrug and grant accommodations ED>to most applicants. ED>Walter Olson, an expert in employment law, sees the prospect of two ED>tracks for doctors and lawyers — one for those who meet announced ED>professional standards, another for those meeting more relaxed ED>performance levels because of ADA litigation. ED>And it might be hard for clients and patients to discover which track ED>their own lawyers and doctors took to become professionals. "ADA has the ED>potential to force the rethinking — and watering down — of every ED>imaginable standard of competence, whether ofm ind, body or character," ED>Olson writes in his book, "The Excuse Factory." ED>Objecting to a character flaw is dicey because almost all bad behavior ED>can be construed as the result or expression of a disability. Rude ED>behavior, for instance, might be the result of missed social cues or ED>boorishness, known as dyssemia. So almost any punishment of ED>objectionable behavior can be a violation of disability law. ED>The broader problem is that nobody is sure how to distinguish between ED>people with genuine learning disabilities and those who are ED>underachievers, lazy, not too bright or just faking it to take advantage ED>of ADA. ED>Some creative students claim dubious disabilities such as dysrationalia ED>(illogical thinking) or dysgraphia (bad handwriting). ED>In many high schools, claims of learning disability have become a ED>competitive sport played by parents who want their children to have the ED>extra edge of more time on tests and therefore a chance to get higher ED>marks. Often it takes no more than a doctor's note. ED>A large wave of students who came to rely on these accommodations in ED>high school is now hitting the colleges. Graduate schools and the ED>professions are next. ED>Original Publication Date: 09/26/1998 ED>------------------- ED>Shessh............... I tell you what disturbs me most about your little story. The economic discrimination involved. It takes a lot of money to hire experts to find disabilities where none exist. So it is only people who are from families that have very substantial financial resources that can pay for the kinds of resources that are necessary to mount the legal challenge to get "special accomodations" to take the bar exam. And of course, it is laughable to me that any judge could say that the ability to read well is not an essential job skill for a lawyer. And it is equally laughable that the judge could draw the analogy between blindness and learning disability--especially since as you say, blind people read Braille. (Actually there are now machines that allow blind people to read print books.) Date: Sunday, September 27, 1998 11:10am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 747747 To: Vida Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747713, Reply to #747701, Reply to #747693, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>Clinton is in trouble only because of his own poor judgement! VI>KK>BTW, Starr did not want the job he was given. He wanted to quit a long VI>KK>time ago. Who told him not to quit? VI>KK>And the reason our tax dollars were spent was because Clinton lied! Had VI>KK>he not lied, this thing would have been over a long time ago. VI>KK>Clinton should pay us all back for the money HE made us spend. VI>I disagree totally with your statement that Starr wanted to quit a long VI>time ago. It that was the case he would have folded up his tent when VI>his orginal mandate--to investigate allegations of irregularities with VI>the Whitewater development came up empty. I think the record shows that Starr wanted to do exactly that but was told by was Reno or even Clinton himself that he should continue. VI>I think it is clear that Starr came to his job with a political VI>agenda--to get Clinton. When he couldn't find any thing that would VI>"stick" in a court of law about Whitewater than he looked into VI>allegations about the Vince Foster death. VI>Than when that came up empty he looked into Clinton's biggest VI>weakness--Clinton's sex life. So, of course, Starr could find evidence VI>that Clinton lied up his sex life. Starr did not come into this job with any agenda. He did not want the job and was hired to do it by CLINTON'S SIDE! Date: Sunday, September 27, 1998 11:14am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 747748 To: Vida Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747718, Reply to #747710, Reply to #747669, R*) (1 reply) VI>AK>VI>I take exception to your comment that no other executive would keep hi VI>AK>VI>job even after one sexual incidient with a 21 year old intern. I thin VI>AK>VI>this kind of thing happens very, very frequently. That's the VI>AK>VI>hyprocrisy of the whole thing--almost every politican around is guilty VI>AK>VI>of the same kind of behavior if not worse. VI>AK>Agreed. This type of thing does happen a lot more than we know of. VI>AK>Also agree with the second point. If we had the money and a team of VI>AK>lawyers dedicated to everyone holding an elected seat, we would VI>AK>probably find somethings comparable or even worse in 99% of them. VI>AK>We, as the greatest fast food culture on the face of the planet, tend VI>AK>to just absorb whats handed to us. I'm sure that the majority of the US VI>AK>hasn't started to even think of what thier senator or congressman or VI>AK>(put in office here) is doing. VI>But should we care? Yes we should care! Given the choice, I'd prefer to have a moral individual in any given office rather than an immoral one. Date: Monday, September 28, 1998 6:01am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747750 To: Kkid Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747747, Reply to #747713, Reply to #747701, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>KK>Clinton is in trouble only because of his own poor judgement! KK>VI>KK>BTW, Starr did not want the job he was given. He wanted to quit a long KK>VI>KK>time ago. Who told him not to quit? KK>VI>KK>And the reason our tax dollars were spent was because Clinton lied! Ha KK>VI>KK>he not lied, this thing would have been over a long time ago. KK>VI>KK>Clinton should pay us all back for the money HE made us spend. KK>VI>I disagree totally with your statement that Starr wanted to quit a long KK>VI>time ago. It that was the case he would have folded up his tent when KK>VI>his orginal mandate--to investigate allegations of irregularities with KK>VI>the Whitewater development came up empty. KK>I think the record shows that Starr wanted to do exactly that but was KK>told by was Reno or even Clinton himself that he should continue. I doubt very much that Clinton would have told him to continue. Perhaps Reno might have--but I do not know of the "recorded facts" of which you speak. KK>VI>I think it is clear that Starr came to his job with a political KK>VI>agenda--to get Clinton. When he couldn't find any thing that would KK>VI>"stick" in a court of law about Whitewater than he looked into KK>VI>allegations about the Vince Foster death. KK>VI>Than when that came up empty he looked into Clinton's biggest KK>VI>weakness--Clinton's sex life. So, of course, Starr could find evidence KK>VI>that Clinton lied up his sex life. KK>Starr did not come into this job with any agenda. He did not want the KK>job and was hired to do it by CLINTON'S SIDE! That is clearly wrong. He was appointed to the job by the chief judge of the US Supreme Court--Rehnequest--who is clearly no friend of Clinton. Date: Monday, September 28, 1998 6:03am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747751 To: Kkid Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747748, Reply to #747718, Reply to #747710, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>AK>VI>I take exception to your comment that no other executive would keep KK>VI>AK>VI>job even after one sexual incidient with a 21 year old intern. I t KK>VI>AK>VI>this kind of thing happens very, very frequently. That's the KK>VI>AK>VI>hyprocrisy of the whole thing--almost every politican around is gui KK>VI>AK>VI>of the same kind of behavior if not worse. KK>VI>AK>Agreed. This type of thing does happen a lot more than we know of. KK>VI>AK>Also agree with the second point. If we had the money and a team of KK>VI>AK>lawyers dedicated to everyone holding an elected seat, we would KK>VI>AK>probably find somethings comparable or even worse in 99% of them. KK>VI>AK>We, as the greatest fast food culture on the face of the planet, tend KK>VI>AK>to just absorb whats handed to us. I'm sure that the majority of the U KK>VI>AK>hasn't started to even think of what thier senator or congressman or KK>VI>AK>(put in office here) is doing. KK>VI>But should we care? KK>Yes we should care! Given the choice, I'd prefer to have a moral KK>individual in any given office rather than an immoral one. Then you vote for the moral person, rather than the immoral one. But it is very important for the democratic process that once a President wins an election he stays in office--unless he/she commits a very serious offense. Date: Monday, September 28, 1998 9:46am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747753 To: Vida Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747744, Reply to #747737, Reply to #747733, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>I'm not an attorney, but it seems to me there are ways to avoid ans V >ED>questions like that and still be truthful. V > V >Yeah, sure there's the way. It's called "taking the Fifth" or V >"pleading the Fifth Amendment". It would have been political suicede V >for Clinton to do so. But you are missing the point my friend. The V >point is that no grand jury should be allowed to ask those kinds of V >questions to a person unless there is a very, very compelling reason t V >do it. I'm not sure where you want to draw the line around the grand jury process. Its there to investigate. If they ask an improper question, I have to believe that there is some ground inbetween the "Fifth" and a contempt citation. In fact, Clinton invoked that intermediary priveledge more than once, and so far no one complains about that. They only complain about the questions he DID answer and the whoppers he told. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Monday, September 28, 1998 9:47am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747754 To: Vida Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747745, Reply to #747738, Reply to #747734, R*) (1 reply) V >V >ED>Uh.... I hate to interrupt, but as you may recall Clinton's attorni V >ED>that he be relieved from testifying in the Civil case because as co V >ED>in chief he was part of the military. Can't have it both ways. V > V >I seem to recall that their main argument against testifying in the V >Paula Jones case was had to do with seperation of powers--that the V >Executive branch of the government can not be compelled to take an V >action by the judiciary. Their other argument was that as President V >Clinton had too many duties and responsiblities to be compelled to tak V >time out to be deposed. I don't remember hearing anything about the V >argument that as commander in chief Clinton couldn't be subpeoned. An V >certainly no one in their right mind would expect any civilian to act V >accordance to the rules of military discipline. No.... that lawyer, Bennet??, actually got up and said that as commander in chief, Clinton was a member of the armed forces. The political fallout was like hailstones so they dropped that one. V >ED>Yup... and the criminal code says that you don't lie to a grand jur V >ED>you answer "yes" to "so help you". V >My favorite scene from Casablanca comes to mind, my friend. You know V >the one where Louie says " I'm shocked, shocked to see gambling going V >around in here." and then gets his winnings handed to him. :) And here we again come to that impass where I say that the fact that everyone is doing it doesn't make it right, and that someone has to be the first to stop it. A man of strong moral character would have torn that grand jury a new asshole and told them in words of one syllable that where the "first penis" goes is none of their business. And that man would have been hailed as a national hero just as Senator whatisname was for chewing out Senator Joe in the 50s. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Monday, September 28, 1998 9:47am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747755 To: Vida Re: OK - "not" AA (Reply to #747746, Reply to #747739) (1 reply) V >ED>Shessh............... V >I tell you what disturbs me most about your little story. The economi V >discrimination involved. It takes a lot of money to hire experts to V >find disabilities where none exist. So it is only people who are from According to the story it only takes a Doctor's note. V >families that have very substantial financial resources that can pay f V >the kinds of resources that are necessary to mount the legal challenge V >to get "special accomodations" to take the bar exam. And of course, i V >is laughable to me that any judge could say that the ability to read V >well is not an essential job skill for a lawyer. And it is equally V >laughable that the judge could draw the analogy between blindness and V >learning disability--especially since as you say, blind people read Yeah.... I'd love to know which planet that judge came from. V >Braille. (Actually there are now machines that allow blind people to V >read print books.) Yup, some of those are beauts, and getting cheaper every day. There is so much wrong with this whole scene that if I hadn't read it in multiple places I would have written it off as an urban legend. The underlying beautiful idea that someone with skill A should not be kept from a job requiring skill B is long gone. The entire ADA has become a dueling ground for loophole specialists. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Monday, September 28, 1998 6:05pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747756 To: Editor Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747753, Reply to #747744, Reply to #747737, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >ED>I'm not an attorney, but it seems to me there are ways to avoid ans ED>V >ED>questions like that and still be truthful. ED>V > ED>V >Yeah, sure there's the way. It's called "taking the Fifth" or ED>V >"pleading the Fifth Amendment". It would have been political suicede ED>V >for Clinton to do so. But you are missing the point my friend. The ED>V >point is that no grand jury should be allowed to ask those kinds of ED>V >questions to a person unless there is a very, very compelling reason t ED>V >do it. ED>I'm not sure where you want to draw the line around the grand jury process. ED>Its there to investigate. If they ask an improper question, I have to ED>believe that there is some ground inbetween the "Fifth" and a contempt ED>citation. In fact, Clinton invoked that intermediary priveledge more than ED>once, and so far no one complains about that. They only complain about the ED>questions he DID answer and the whoppers he told. ED>--- ED> þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy I think the "whoopers" you are referring to are merely a matter of he said, she said. :) Date: Monday, September 28, 1998 6:08pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747757 To: Editor Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747754, Reply to #747745, Reply to #747738, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >V >ED>Uh.... I hate to interrupt, but as you may recall Clinton's ED>attorni ED>V >ED>that he be relieved from testifying in the Civil case because as co ED>V >ED>in chief he was part of the military. Can't have it both ways. ED>V > ED>V >I seem to recall that their main argument against testifying in the ED>V >Paula Jones case was had to do with seperation of powers--that the ED>V >Executive branch of the government can not be compelled to take an ED>V >action by the judiciary. Their other argument was that as President ED>V >Clinton had too many duties and responsiblities to be compelled to tak ED>V >time out to be deposed. I don't remember hearing anything about the ED>V >argument that as commander in chief Clinton couldn't be subpeoned. An ED>V >certainly no one in their right mind would expect any civilian to act ED>V >accordance to the rules of military discipline. ED>No.... that lawyer, Bennet??, actually got up and said that as commander in ED>chief, Clinton was a member of the armed forces. The political fallout was ED>like hailstones so they dropped that one. And rightfully so! The implications of that kind of thinking are truly scary. We don't want to become a banana republic! ED>V >ED>Yup... and the criminal code says that you don't lie to a grand jur ED>V >ED>you answer "yes" to "so help you". ED>V >My favorite scene from Casablanca comes to mind, my friend. You know ED>V >the one where Louie says " I'm shocked, shocked to see gambling going ED>V >around in here." and then gets his winnings handed to him. :) ED>And here we again come to that impass where I say that the fact that ED>everyone is doing it doesn't make it right, and that someone has to be the ED>first to stop it. A man of strong moral character would have torn that ED>grand jury a new asshole and told them in words of one syllable that where ED>the "first penis" goes is none of their business. And that man would have ED>been hailed as a national hero just as Senator whatisname was for chewing ED>out Senator Joe in the 50s. I agree with you 100%. However, Clinton was never a man of moral principles. He is a weasal. But I don't think that this is enough to impeach the guy. Date: Monday, September 28, 1998 6:14pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747758 To: Editor Re: OK - "not" AA (Reply to #747755, Reply to #747746, Reply to #747739) (1 reply) ED>V >ED>Shessh............... ED>V >I tell you what disturbs me most about your little story. The economi ED>V >discrimination involved. It takes a lot of money to hire experts to ED>V >find disabilities where none exist. So it is only people who are from ED>According to the story it only takes a Doctor's note. It takes a letter from an "expert" setting forth the nature of the "disability" and why "reasonable accomodations are necessary". That kind of thing takes money. You have to find someone willing to make a whore out of him/herself. ED>V >families that have very substantial financial resources that can pay f ED>V >the kinds of resources that are necessary to mount the legal challenge ED>V >to get "special accomodations" to take the bar exam. And of course, i ED>V >is laughable to me that any judge could say that the ability to read ED>V >well is not an essential job skill for a lawyer. And it is equally ED>V >laughable that the judge could draw the analogy between blindness and ED>V >learning disability--especially since as you say, blind people read ED>Yeah.... I'd love to know which planet that judge came from. ED>V >Braille. (Actually there are now machines that allow blind people to ED>V >read print books.) ED>Yup, some of those are beauts, and getting cheaper every day. ED>There is so much wrong with this whole scene that if I hadn't read it in ED>multiple places I would have written it off as an urban legend. The ED>underlying beautiful idea that someone with skill A should not be kept from ED>a job requiring skill B is long gone. The entire ADA has become a dueling ED>ground for loophole specialists. Only because the judges are not interpreting it correctly. Clearly it was not meant to apply to force an employer to hire someone who could not preform necessary job duties. To say that a lawyer doesn't need to read well is about as stupid as when the Supreme Court said in the 1880's that "Jim Crow" accomodations were ok because they were "seperate and equal.". Any one with a bit of common sense knows that both of these statements have no basis in reality. Date: Monday, September 28, 1998 7:39pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 747759 To: Vida Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747750, Reply to #747747, Reply to #747713, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>Starr did not come into this job with any agenda. He did not want the VI>KK>job and was hired to do it by CLINTON'S SIDE! VI>That is clearly wrong. He was appointed to the job by the chief judge VI>of the US Supreme Court--Rehnequest--who is clearly no friend of VI>Clinton. Are you sure that it was not Reno who wanted him for the job? Date: Monday, September 28, 1998 7:40pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 747760 To: Vida Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747751, Reply to #747748, Reply to #747718, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>VI>But should we care? VI>KK>Yes we should care! Given the choice, I'd prefer to have a moral VI>KK>individual in any given office rather than an immoral one. VI>Then you vote for the moral person, rather than the immoral one. But VI>it is very important for the democratic process that once a President VI>wins an election he stays in office--unless he/she commits a very VI>serious offense. Forgetting about all the offenses Clinton is purported to have committed, I consider lying under oath "serious." Date: Tuesday, September 29, 1998 6:25am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747761 To: Kkid Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747759, Reply to #747750, Reply to #747747, R*) KK>VI>KK>Starr did not come into this job with any agenda. He did not want the KK>VI>KK>job and was hired to do it by CLINTON'S SIDE! KK>VI>That is clearly wrong. He was appointed to the job by the chief judge KK>VI>of the US Supreme Court--Rehnequest--who is clearly no friend of KK>VI>Clinton. KK>Are you sure that it was not Reno who wanted him for the job? Fairly sure. I have read that Rehnequest appointed Starr. It makes more sense that way also. Why would Reno appoint a Republican coservative to act as the Special Prosecutor? Date: Tuesday, September 29, 1998 6:30am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747762 To: Kkid Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747760, Reply to #747751, Reply to #747748, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>KK>VI>But should we care? KK>VI>KK>Yes we should care! Given the choice, I'd prefer to have a moral KK>VI>KK>individual in any given office rather than an immoral one. KK>VI>Then you vote for the moral person, rather than the immoral one. But KK>VI>it is very important for the democratic process that once a President KK>VI>wins an election he stays in office--unless he/she commits a very KK>VI>serious offense. KK>Forgetting about all the offenses Clinton is purported to have KK>committed, I consider lying under oath "serious." That's because you're not a lawyer! :) Have you ever been deposed or a conducted a deposition? I have never personally been deposed, but I have been the one on the questioning end many, many times. In my experience I would say that almost EVERY litigant I have questioned tells a "lie" (something other than the truth, or the WHOLE truth) at some point in the questioning process. Unless you are a saint or really don't care about the outcome of the case, it is virtually impossible NOT to do so. Date: Tuesday, September 29, 1998 12:32pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747764 To: Vida Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747756, Reply to #747753, Reply to #747744, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>I'm not sure where you want to draw the line around the grand jury V >ED>Its there to investigate. If they ask an improper question, I have V >ED>believe that there is some ground inbetween the "Fifth" and a conte V >ED>citation. In fact, Clinton invoked that intermediary priveledge mor V >ED>once, and so far no one complains about that. They only complain ab V >ED>questions he DID answer and the whoppers he told. V > V >I think the "whoopers" you are referring to are merely a matter of he V >said, she said. :) Whopper number 1. On national network TV. Pretty much repeated under oath. "I did not have sexual relations with that woman." Nine words. Six with only one syllable. Long pauses between words for emphasis. Hand gestures to emphasize "that". Gimme mine with no pickle and double lettuce. (That of course depends on what 'pickle' means.) --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Tuesday, September 29, 1998 12:32pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747765 To: Vida Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747757, Reply to #747754, Reply to #747745, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>V >My favorite scene from Casablanca comes to mind, my friend. You V >ED>V >the one where Louie says " I'm shocked, shocked to see gambling V >ED>V >around in here." and then gets his winnings handed to him. :) V > V >ED>And here we again come to that impass where I say that the fact tha V >ED>everyone is doing it doesn't make it right, and that someone has to V >ED>first to stop it. A man of strong moral character would have torn t V >ED>grand jury a new asshole and told them in words of one syllable tha V >ED>the "first penis" goes is none of their business. And that man woul V >ED>been hailed as a national hero just as Senator whatisname was for c V >ED>out Senator Joe in the 50s. V >I agree with you 100%. However, Clinton was never a man of moral V >principles. He is a weasal. But I don't think that this is enough to V >impeach the guy. Congress is discussing reviving the draft. And we may have to send troops to Bosnia. Wanna do that on the word of a moral weasal? --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Tuesday, September 29, 1998 12:32pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747766 To: Vida Re: OK - "not" AA (Reply to #747758, Reply to #747755, Reply to #747746, R*) (1 reply) V >D>V >ED>Shessh............... V >ED>V >I tell you what disturbs me most about your little story. The e V >ED>V >discrimination involved. It takes a lot of money to hire expert V >ED>V >find disabilities where none exist. So it is only people who ar V > V >ED>According to the story it only takes a Doctor's note. V > V > V >It takes a letter from an "expert" setting forth the nature of the V >"disability" and why "reasonable accomodations are necessary". That V >kind of thing takes money. You have to find someone willing to make a V >whore out of him/herself. Real shortage of those lately huh? (G) --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Thursday, October 1, 1998 6:45am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747786 To: Editor Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747764, Reply to #747756, Reply to #747753, R*) ED>V >ED>I'm not sure where you want to draw the line around the grand jury ED>V >ED>Its there to investigate. If they ask an improper question, I have ED>V >ED>believe that there is some ground inbetween the "Fifth" and a conte ED>V >ED>citation. In fact, Clinton invoked that intermediary priveledge mor ED>V >ED>once, and so far no one complains about that. They only complain ab ED>V >ED>questions he DID answer and the whoppers he told. ED>V > ED>V >I think the "whoopers" you are referring to are merely a matter of he ED>V >said, she said. :) ED>Whopper number 1. On national network TV. Pretty much repeated under oath. ED> "I did not have sexual relations with that woman." ED>Nine words. Six with only one syllable. Long pauses between words for ED>emphasis. Hand gestures to emphasize "that". ED>Gimme mine with no pickle and double lettuce. (That of course depends on ED>what 'pickle' means.) That's the whole point...it depends on how you define "sexual relations". :) Date: Thursday, October 1, 1998 6:47am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747787 To: Editor Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747765, Reply to #747757, Reply to #747754, R*) (2 replies) ED>V >ED>V >My favorite scene from Casablanca comes to mind, my friend. You ED>V >ED>V >the one where Louie says " I'm shocked, shocked to see gambling ED>V >ED>V >around in here." and then gets his winnings handed to him. :) ED>V > ED>V >ED>And here we again come to that impass where I say that the fact tha ED>V >ED>everyone is doing it doesn't make it right, and that someone has to ED>V >ED>first to stop it. A man of strong moral character would have torn t ED>V >ED>grand jury a new asshole and told them in words of one syllable tha ED>V >ED>the "first penis" goes is none of their business. And that man woul ED>V >ED>been hailed as a national hero just as Senator whatisname was for c ED>V >ED>out Senator Joe in the 50s. ED>V >I agree with you 100%. However, Clinton was never a man of moral ED>V >principles. He is a weasal. But I don't think that this is enough to ED>V >impeach the guy. ED>Congress is discussing reviving the draft. And we may have to send troops ED>to Bosnia. Wanna do that on the word of a moral weasal? Perhaps we should be sending troops to Bosnia? As a Jew didn't you feel a little tag of guilt when you caught a glimpse of yesterday's cover of the "The New York Times"? Those pictures of "ethnic cleansing" didn't touch you on Yom Kippur? Date: Thursday, October 1, 1998 6:48am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747788 To: Editor Re: OK - "not" AA (Reply to #747766, Reply to #747758, Reply to #747755, R*) ED>V >D>V >ED>Shessh............... ED>V >ED>V >I tell you what disturbs me most about your little story. The e ED>V >ED>V >discrimination involved. It takes a lot of money to hire expert ED>V >ED>V >find disabilities where none exist. So it is only people who ar ED>V > ED>V >ED>According to the story it only takes a Doctor's note. ED>V > ED>V > ED>V >It takes a letter from an "expert" setting forth the nature of the ED>V >"disability" and why "reasonable accomodations are necessary". That ED>V >kind of thing takes money. You have to find someone willing to make a ED>V >whore out of him/herself. ED>Real shortage of those lately huh? (G) No shortage. But whores expect to be paid well. Date: Thursday, October 1, 1998 2:10pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747792 To: Vida Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747787, Reply to #747765, Reply to #747757, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>Congress is discussing reviving the draft. And we may have to send V >ED>to Bosnia. Wanna do that on the word of a moral weasal? V > V >Perhaps we should be sending troops to Bosnia? As a Jew didn't you V >feel a little tag of guilt when you caught a glimpse of yesterday's V >cover of the "The New York Times"? Those pictures of "ethnic V >cleansing" didn't touch you on Yom Kippur? Of COURSE it does, but do you believe what you are being told? When El Sleazo tells you this is the right thing to do, the right way to solve the problem, a good place to slaughter American 18-20 year olds, what is your comfort level that he isn't trying to.... hehehe.... pull a Johnson. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Friday, October 2, 1998 7:14am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747796 To: Editor Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747792, Reply to #747787, Reply to #747765, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >ED>Congress is discussing reviving the draft. And we may have to send ED>V >ED>to Bosnia. Wanna do that on the word of a moral weasal? ED>V > ED>V >Perhaps we should be sending troops to Bosnia? As a Jew didn't you ED>V >feel a little tag of guilt when you caught a glimpse of yesterday's ED>V >cover of the "The New York Times"? Those pictures of "ethnic ED>V >cleansing" didn't touch you on Yom Kippur? ED>Of COURSE it does, but do you believe what you are being told? When El ED>Sleazo tells you this is the right thing to do, the right way to solve the ED>problem, a good place to slaughter American 18-20 year olds, what is your ED>comfort level that he isn't trying to.... hehehe.... pull a Johnson. I do not trust Clinton one little bit. But I do not believe that the NY Times would engage in intentional misrepresentation of facts. While "Wag the Dog" was an amusing movie I do not believe that kind of a ploy could work in the real world. Date: Friday, October 2, 1998 8:15am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747798 To: Vida Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747796, Reply to #747792, Reply to #747787, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>Of COURSE it does, but do you believe what you are being told? When V >ED>Sleazo tells you this is the right thing to do, the right way to so V >ED>problem, a good place to slaughter American 18-20 year olds, what i V >ED>comfort level that he isn't trying to.... hehehe.... pull a Johnson V > V >I do not trust Clinton one little bit. But I do not believe that the V >NY Times would engage in intentional misrepresentation of facts. Whil V >"Wag the Dog" was an amusing movie I do not believe that kind of a plo V >could work in the real world. Maybe not intentional, but they sure could be duped. Its happened before and could easily happen again. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Saturday, October 3, 1998 3:08am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747800 To: Editor Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747798, Reply to #747796, Reply to #747792, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >ED>Of COURSE it does, but do you believe what you are being told? When ED>V >ED>Sleazo tells you this is the right thing to do, the right way to so ED>V >ED>problem, a good place to slaughter American 18-20 year olds, what i ED>V >ED>comfort level that he isn't trying to.... hehehe.... pull a Johnson ED>V > ED>V >I do not trust Clinton one little bit. But I do not believe that the ED>V >NY Times would engage in intentional misrepresentation of facts. Whil ED>V >"Wag the Dog" was an amusing movie I do not believe that kind of a plo ED>V >could work in the real world. ED>Maybe not intentional, but they sure could be duped. Its happened before ED>and could easily happen again. ED>--- ED> þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Do you know of any instance when the Times was duped into reporting that an event occurred when the event did not occur? Are you trying to suggest that those horrible pictures on the front page of the Times were faked or planted? IN the meantime I have heard snippets on radio news that Albright is trying to handle the situation diplomatically. I have not heard any evidence of mounting war hysteria at all. Date: Saturday, October 3, 1998 12:22pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Big Al Msg#: 747812 To: Vida Re: bosnia (Reply to #747787, Reply to #747765, Reply to #747757, R*) yes reinstate the draft it will make some of todays youth straighten up and fly right!as for bosnia or kosovo as of today how long b4 we take action to stop the slaughter of inocent peoplelets not forget hitler all those who were slautered in the name of the ethnic clensing! just where do you draw the line. the serbs just take our warnings as empty threats! it is time to act b4 the criel cold of winter starts and thousands more die.! alan Date: Saturday, October 3, 1998 12:32pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Big Al Msg#: 747813 To: ** ALL ** Re: clint vs. starr its plain to see at this point the man is an outright liar so he deserves what he gets and not the kind of man citizens can trust he has dishonored the office of the president and lowered our stature in the international community! no man is above the law especially the president he shud be held to a higher accountabily of ethics! Date: Saturday, October 3, 1998 1:00pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747815 To: Vida Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747800, Reply to #747798, Reply to #747796, R*) (1 reply) V >D>V >ED>Of COURSE it does, but do you believe what you are being told? V >ED>V >ED>Sleazo tells you this is the right thing to do, the right way V >ED>V >ED>problem, a good place to slaughter American 18-20 year olds, V >ED>V >ED>comfort level that he isn't trying to.... hehehe.... pull a J V >ED>V > V >ED>V >I do not trust Clinton one little bit. But I do not believe tha V >ED>V >NY Times would engage in intentional misrepresentation of facts. V >ED>V >"Wag the Dog" was an amusing movie I do not believe that kind of V >ED>V >could work in the real world. V > V >ED>Maybe not intentional, but they sure could be duped. Its happened b V >ED>and could easily happen again. V > V >ED>--- V >ED> þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy V >Do you know of any instance when the Times was duped into reporting th V >an event occurred when the event did not occur? Are you trying to V >suggest that those horrible pictures on the front page of the Times we V >faked or planted? IN the meantime I have heard snippets on radio news V >that Albright is trying to handle the situation diplomatically. I hav V >not heard any evidence of mounting war hysteria at all. Other then the Tokin Gulf episode? --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Sunday, October 4, 1998 8:10am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747818 To: Editor Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747815, Reply to #747800, Reply to #747798, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >D>V >ED>Of COURSE it does, but do you believe what you are being told? ED>V >ED>V >ED>Sleazo tells you this is the right thing to do, the right way ED>V >ED>V >ED>problem, a good place to slaughter American 18-20 year olds, ED>V >ED>V >ED>comfort level that he isn't trying to.... hehehe.... pull a J ED>V >ED>V > ED>V >ED>V >I do not trust Clinton one little bit. But I do not believe tha ED>V >ED>V >NY Times would engage in intentional misrepresentation of facts. ED>V >ED>V >"Wag the Dog" was an amusing movie I do not believe that kind of ED>V >ED>V >could work in the real world. ED>V > ED>V >ED>Maybe not intentional, but they sure could be duped. Its happened b ED>V >ED>and could easily happen again. ED>V > ED>V >ED>--- ED>V >ED> þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy ED>V >Do you know of any instance when the Times was duped into reporting th ED>V >an event occurred when the event did not occur? Are you trying to ED>V >suggest that those horrible pictures on the front page of the Times we ED>V >faked or planted? IN the meantime I have heard snippets on radio news ED>V >that Albright is trying to handle the situation diplomatically. I hav ED>V >not heard any evidence of mounting war hysteria at all. ED>Other then the Tokin Gulf episode? I must admit my memory is weak on this point. I can't recall the facts at all. Date: Sunday, October 4, 1998 12:49pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 747820 To: Vida Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747762, Reply to #747760, Reply to #747751, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>Forgetting about all the offenses Clinton is purported to have VI>KK>committed, I consider lying under oath "serious." VI>That's because you're not a lawyer! :) VI>Have you ever been deposed or a conducted a deposition? I have never VI>personally been deposed, but I have been the one on the questioning end VI>many, many times. VI> In my experience I would say that almost EVERY litigant I have VI>questioned tells a "lie" (something other than the truth, or the WHOLE VI>truth) at some point in the questioning process. Unless you are a VI>saint or really don't care about the outcome of the case, it is VI>virtually impossible NOT to do so. I still consider lying under oath serious. It makes no difference how many people do it. I guess people feel it's OK because they get away with it more than not. Date: Monday, October 5, 1998 6:16am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747821 To: Kkid Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747820, Reply to #747762, Reply to #747760, R*) KK>VI>KK>Forgetting about all the offenses Clinton is purported to have KK>VI>KK>committed, I consider lying under oath "serious." KK>VI>That's because you're not a lawyer! :) KK>VI>Have you ever been deposed or a conducted a deposition? I have never KK>VI>personally been deposed, but I have been the one on the questioning end KK>VI>many, many times. KK>VI> In my experience I would say that almost EVERY litigant I have KK>VI>questioned tells a "lie" (something other than the truth, or the WHOLE KK>VI>truth) at some point in the questioning process. Unless you are a KK>VI>saint or really don't care about the outcome of the case, it is KK>VI>virtually impossible NOT to do so. KK>I still consider lying under oath serious. It makes no difference how KK>many people do it. I guess people feel it's OK because they get away KK>with it more than not. I also think that lying under oath is serious. However, given human nature it is difficult NOT to lie if you are being deposed by the opposing counsel in a civil law suit. This is true because it is the job of the opposing counsel to ask you questions to which a truthful answer would be against your interests. Perhaps the best way to avoid this problem is to create a sort of "Fifth Amendment Right" against civil incrimination. I will tell you that as an attorney who repersents defendants in law suits that I wish there was such a right. Half of the time it is my client's testimony that proves the plaintiff's case! Date: Monday, October 5, 1998 9:46am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747823 To: Vida Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747818, Reply to #747815, Reply to #747800, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>Other then the Tokin Gulf episode? V > V >I must admit my memory is weak on this point. I can't recall the fact V >at all. Johnson either faked or totaly invented the attack on a US Naval Ship and used that as an excuse for the major escalations in Vietnam. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Saturday, October 10, 1998 6:12pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747843 To: Editor Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747823, Reply to #747818, Reply to #747815, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >ED>Other then the Tokin Gulf episode? ED>V > ED>V >I must admit my memory is weak on this point. I can't recall the fact ED>V >at all. ED>Johnson either faked or totaly invented the attack on a US Naval Ship and ED>used that as an excuse for the major escalations in Vietnam. Can you recommend a good historical account that confirms this? I am not doubting that what you are saying is true, I would just like to cure my ignorance. Date: Saturday, October 10, 1998 7:02pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747846 To: Vida Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747843, Reply to #747823, Reply to #747818, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>V >ED>Other then the Tokin Gulf episode? V >ED>V > V >ED>V >I must admit my memory is weak on this point. I can't recall th V >ED>V >at all. V > V >ED>Johnson either faked or totaly invented the attack on a US Naval Sh V >ED>used that as an excuse for the major escalations in Vietnam. V > V >Can you recommend a good historical account that confirms this? I am V >not doubting that what you are saying is true, I would just like to V >cure my ignorance. I can't believe you don't remember this. Johnson's excuse for the major escalation was the attack on the destroyers in the Tonkin Gulf. Later it was determined that this attack probably never happened. Let me surf the web on this a bit. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Monday, October 12, 1998 6:24pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747849 To: Editor Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747846, Reply to #747843, Reply to #747823, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >ED>V >ED>Other then the Tokin Gulf episode? ED>V >ED>V > ED>V >ED>V >I must admit my memory is weak on this point. I can't recall th ED>V >ED>V >at all. ED>V > ED>V >ED>Johnson either faked or totaly invented the attack on a US Naval Sh ED>V >ED>used that as an excuse for the major escalations in Vietnam. ED>V > ED>V >Can you recommend a good historical account that confirms this? I am ED>V >not doubting that what you are saying is true, I would just like to ED>V >cure my ignorance. ED>I can't believe you don't remember this. Johnson's excuse for the major ED>escalation was the attack on the destroyers in the Tonkin Gulf. Later it ED>was determined that this attack probably never happened. Let me surf the ED>web on this a bit. Nope. I honestly can't recall. But don't forget, I was born in 1955. So I was very, very young when the Gulf of Tonkin occurred. Date: Monday, October 12, 1998 6:46pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747850 To: ** ALL ** Re: The Taliban horror Here's an attempt to start a new thread. I have reprinted this article from the Sunday's NY Times. From what I understand these guys make the Iranians look moderate. Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 22:18:57 -0700 Reply-To: Abigail's Rebels Subject: AB: NYT: Taliban oppresses Afghan women October 11, 1998 Taliban Rules Weigh on Afghan Women By The Associated Press KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) -- Concealed in giant swaths of blue cloth, an Afghan woman steps out of the shadows and whispers in accented English: ``I am an educator. Do you have a job for me, not in Kabul, in the provinces?'' The rancid smell of an open sewer hangs heavy in the mid-afternoon heat and the bark of stray dogs makes the whisper barely audible. Another woman outside a blue-tiled mosque eyes a foreigner. Quickly she tucks her chin to her chest and stoops her shoulders trying it seems to bury herself deep inside her burqa. She steps forward, her hand outstretched. ``I'm not a beggar, but I have no choice. I need food for my family,'' says a voice from within. In the capital, ruled by Afghanistan's hard-line Taliban religious army since 1996, women have been on the receiving end of most of the militia's harsh Islamic edicts. They can't work and are forbidden to leave their homes unless accompanied by a male relative. Taxi drivers routinely are beaten if their fare is a woman alone. The Taliban defend their edicts, which also ban girls from school, in the name of Islam. They remind critics that Kabul's previous rulers, led by ousted President Burhanuddin Rabbani, destroyed the city in four years of bitter factional fighting that killed 50,000 people, many of them women and children. The Taliban, who control 90 percent of the country, say the streets were not safe from marauding bands of men who would steal and rape. But for women, it seems the movement's puritanical edicts are taking a toll on their mental health. At Kabul's only mental health hospital, Dr. Shaheen Shah Wasah, says since the Taliban takeover the number of women patients is on the increase. Theirs is a small, shabby ward. Even behind closed doors several women bury themselves in their burqa, lying listlessly on the bed. Some moan and rock back and forth. Others squat in a corner. Depression is their greatest enemy, says Wasah. ``Some of them were students or teachers or worked in the government,'' he said. ``Now she is in her home. She has no picnics. She can't go anywhere ... anymore. Of course it affects her brain.'' There have been reports, although not documented, that suicide among women in Afghanistan has increased dramatically in Kabul since the Taliban takeover. Wasah agreed, but said that suicide in Islamic Afghanistan is shameful and victims are buried quickly and quietly. ``Many more women are coming to my hospital ... they are suffering from depression,'' he said. ``But many more are coming for medicine and going back home.'' But the medicine is running out, Wasah says. International aid workers, who have left abul to protest a Taliban order relocating them to abandoned school dormitories, were supplying Kabul's only mental health hospital with its medicines. Another week and Wasah's stock of medicines will be gone. ``Then I don't know what I will do,'' with my patients, he said. ``Maybe I will take them and leave them outside the presidential palace.'' On the street outside the mental health hospital, children scramble and jostle for a place in front of the World Food Program bakeries that supply subsidized bread to some of Kabul's poorest. Aid workers say years of relentless fighting between rival Islamic factions has left an estimated 30,000 widows in Afghanistan. Many have had to send their children out in the streets to beg for food. ``They have lost the male members of their family and they themselves cannot have a job. Begging is the only way,'' said Huma Saeed, a member of Revolutionary Afghan Women's Association, a small group with members mostly in neighboring Pakistan. At the bakery, children, clutching their WFP slip -- proof that they are in need -- wrap the warm bread in their tattered scarves and trudge back home. Six-year-old Laila rubs her inflamed eye, squinting into the sun, as she explains that the bread and rice is the only food her family is likely to eat that day. ``I come every day ... there are six of us in my family,'' she says. ********************************************************************* Date: Wednesday, October 14, 1998 9:01am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747852 To: Vida Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747849, Reply to #747846, Reply to #747843, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>I can't believe you don't remember this. Johnson's excuse for the m V >ED>escalation was the attack on the destroyers in the Tonkin Gulf. Lat V >ED>was determined that this attack probably never happened. Let me sur V >ED>web on this a bit. V > V >Nope. I honestly can't recall. But don't forget, I was born in 1955. V >So I was very, very young when the Gulf of Tonkin occurred. Well young'un.... lets see what grandpa (creeeaaaakkkk) can remeber. There was an attack on a US Navy Destroyer, can't remember the name, in the Gulf on Tonkin. Johnson took it to Congress and got hisself the "Tokin Gulf Resolution" (I think). This gave him freedom to start a major escalation of the US involvement. The only trouble is, looking back, no one is quite certain the attack took place. Of course by then we had a couple of gazillion men and dollars invested, so who could be bothered even if the whole thing was fake. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Wednesday, October 14, 1998 9:01am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747853 To: Vida Re: Da cops (1 reply) I've been meaning to ask you what you thought about the cops who were fired for that crude float in the Labor Day parade. I think it stinks. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Wednesday, October 14, 1998 9:01am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747854 To: ** ALL ** Re: Nonsense We were young and our happiness dazzled us with its strength. But there was also a terrible betrayal that lay within me like a Merle Haggard song at a French restaurant. ... I could not tell the girl about the woman of the tollway, of her milk white BMW and her Jordache smile. There had been a fight. I had punched her boyfriend, who fought the mechanical bulls. Everyone told him, "You ride the bull, senor. You do not fight it." But he was lean and tough like a bad rib-eye and he fought the bull. And then he fought me. And when we finished there were no winners, just men doing what men must do. ... "Stop the car," the girl said. There was a look of terrible sadness in her eyes. She knew about the woman of the tollway. I knew not how. I started to speak, but she raised an arm and spoke with a quiet and peace I will never forget. "I do not ask for whom's the tollway belle," she said, "the tollway belle's for thee." The next morning our youth was a memory, and our happiness was a lie. Life is like a bad margarita with good tequila, I thought as I poured whiskey onto my granola and faced a new day. -- Peter Applebome, International Imitation Hemingway Competition --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Wednesday, October 14, 1998 6:15pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747855 To: Editor Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747852, Reply to #747849, Reply to #747846, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >ED>I can't believe you don't remember this. Johnson's excuse for the m ED>V >ED>escalation was the attack on the destroyers in the Tonkin Gulf. Lat ED>V >ED>was determined that this attack probably never happened. Let me sur ED>V >ED>web on this a bit. ED>V > ED>V >Nope. I honestly can't recall. But don't forget, I was born in 1955. ED>V >So I was very, very young when the Gulf of Tonkin occurred. ED>Well young'un.... lets see what grandpa (creeeaaaakkkk) can remeber. ED>There was an attack on a US Navy Destroyer, can't remember the name, in the ED>Gulf on Tonkin. Johnson took it to Congress and got hisself the "Tokin Gulf ED>Resolution" (I think). This gave him freedom to start a major escalation of ED>the US involvement. ED>The only trouble is, looking back, no one is quite certain the attack took ED>place. Of course by then we had a couple of gazillion men and dollars ED>invested, so who could be bothered even if the whole thing was fake. Have you been able to find any substantian to the charge that Johnson faked the whole thing? Date: Wednesday, October 14, 1998 6:16pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747856 To: Editor Re: Da cops (Reply to #747853) (1 reply) ED>I've been meaning to ask you what you thought about the cops who were fired ED>for that crude float in the Labor Day parade. I think it stinks. Agreed. The cops were idiots but they should not have been fired. It sets a bad president. The next time they could very well fire a cop for appearing on a gay rights float or whatever. Date: Thursday, October 15, 1998 8:03am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747860 To: Vida Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747855, Reply to #747852, Reply to #747849, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>The only trouble is, looking back, no one is quite certain the atta V >ED>place. Of course by then we had a couple of gazillion men and dolla V >ED>invested, so who could be bothered even if the whole thing was fake V > V >Have you been able to find any substantian to the charge that Johnson V >faked the whole thing? I did a couple of Internet searches on Tonkin Gulf and all I came up with were geographic residences. Its like everyone would rather forget about the sixties. I'll keep looking. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Thursday, October 15, 1998 8:03am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 747861 To: Vida Re: Da cops (Reply to #747856, Reply to #747853) (1 reply) V >ED>I've been meaning to ask you what you thought about the cops who we V >ED>for that crude float in the Labor Day parade. I think it stinks. V > V >Agreed. The cops were idiots but they should not have been fired. It V >sets a bad president. The next time they could very well fire a cop V >for appearing on a gay rights float or whatever. I'm wondering what legal justification they used. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Friday, October 16, 1998 6:39am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747864 To: Editor Re: The Starr Report (Reply to #747860, Reply to #747855, Reply to #747852, R*) ED>V >ED>The only trouble is, looking back, no one is quite certain the atta ED>V >ED>place. Of course by then we had a couple of gazillion men and dolla ED>V >ED>invested, so who could be bothered even if the whole thing was fake ED>V > ED>V >Have you been able to find any substantian to the charge that Johnson ED>V >faked the whole thing? ED>I did a couple of Internet searches on Tonkin Gulf and all I came up with ED>were geographic residences. Its like everyone would rather forget about the ED>sixties. I'll keep looking. Ok. Thanks. I am genuinely interested in this one. Date: Friday, October 16, 1998 6:40am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Vida Msg#: 747865 To: Editor Re: Da cops (Reply to #747861, Reply to #747856, Reply to #747853) (1 reply) ED>V >ED>I've been meaning to ask you what you thought about the cops who we ED>V >ED>for that crude float in the Labor Day parade. I think it stinks. ED>V > ED>V >Agreed. The cops were idiots but they should not have been fired. It ED>V >sets a bad president. The next time they could very well fire a cop ED>V >for appearing on a gay rights float or whatever. ED>I'm wondering what legal justification they used. Got me beat. I heard the cops are suing the city to get their jobs back and that the ACLU is representing them. Date: Tuesday, November 3, 1998 7:36pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 747959 To: ** ALL ** Re: Shhh.... I guess everyone must be out voting.... Date: Saturday, November 7, 1998 3:26am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Big Al Msg#: 747983 To: Vida Re: Da cops (Reply to #747865, Reply to #747861, Reply to #747856, R*) (2 replies) legal ! there was no legal reasoning here but pure politics in my opinion by firing the cops it was a violation of thereir civil rights under the first amendment granted it was in bad taste but it was clearly meant as a joke! yes there are those who may take exception with it. but it is no more harm ful than any ethnic joke other than the fact that it was more demonstrarive! these guys are entiled to their right to freedom of speechno matter how distasteful. its not as if they had a real live person dragging from the back of the truck, wud be a crimminal act that was punishable! or as if they commited an act of bias during the course of their duties! nor did any of these guys do what volpe did with a plunger. they mwere mking a joke about what clearly was a tradjedy, that occurred in texas it only highlighted what a horrufic act the texas dragging was. Date: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 8:45am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Steve Flur Msg#: 747995 To: Big Al Re: Da cops (Reply to #747983, Reply to #747865, Reply to #747861, R*) (1 reply) Do you really see no problem with uniformed city employees engaging in public acts of racism, of which this was only the most recent act? Date: Friday, November 13, 1998 10:10am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 748001 To: Big Al Re: Da cops (Reply to #747983, Reply to #747865, Reply to #747861, R*) BA>legal ! there was no legal reasoning here but pure politics in my BA>opinion by firing the cops it was a violation of thereir civil rights BA>under the first amendment granted it was in bad taste but it was clear BA>meant as a joke! yes there are those who may take exception with it. BA>but it is no more harm ful than any ethnic joke other than the fact th BA>it was more demonstrarive! these guys are entiled to their right to BA>freedom of speechno matter how distasteful. its not as if they had a BA>real live person dragging from the back of the truck, wud be a BA>crimminal act that was punishable! BA>or as if they commited an act of bias during the course of their dutie BA>nor did any of these guys do what volpe did with a plunger. BA>they mwere mking a joke about what clearly was a tradjedy, that occurr BA> in texas BA>it only highlighted what a horrufic act the texas dragging was. Well.... as Rand used to say, everyone has a right to be an asshole, its right there in the constitution. I honestly don't see what the legal thinking was that got them fired. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Friday, November 13, 1998 10:10am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 748002 To: Steve Flur Re: Da cops (Reply to #747995, Reply to #747983, Reply to #747865, R*) (2 replies) SF>Do you really see no problem with uniformed city employees engaging in SF>public acts of racism, of which this was only the most recent act? They weren't in uniform when they did it. They weren't at work. They weren't being paid. Unless their terms of employment covered non-criminal activities activities off the job, they are just a bunch of assholes, which as near as I can remember is not illegal. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Friday, November 13, 1998 2:55pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Steve Flur Msg#: 748003 To: Editor Re: Da cops (Reply to #748002, Reply to #747995, Reply to #747983, R*) (1 reply) ED>SF>Do you really see no problem with uniformed city employees engaging in ED>SF>public acts of racism, of which this was only the most recent act? ED>They weren't in uniform when they did it. They weren't at work. They ED>weren't being paid. Unless their terms of employment covered ED>non-criminal activities activities off the job, they are just a bunch of ED>assholes, which as near as I can remember is not illegal. ED>--- ED> þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Uniformed employees do have a clause about outside activities affecting their emplyability. Date: Saturday, November 14, 1998 7:53pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 748005 To: Steve Flur Re: Da cops (Reply to #748003, Reply to #748002, Reply to #747995, R*) (1 reply) SF>ED>They weren't in uniform when they did it. They weren't at work. The SF>ED>weren't being paid. Unless their terms of employment covered SF>ED>non-criminal activities activities off the job, they are just a bun SF>ED>assholes, which as near as I can remember is not illegal. SF>Uniformed employees do have a clause about outside activities affectin SF>their emplyability. Do you happen to know what it is? I can see it for the police, who are "on duty" full time, but firemen? --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Sunday, November 15, 1998 8:23pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Steve Flur Msg#: 748016 To: Editor Re: Da cops (Reply to #748005, Reply to #748003, Reply to #748002, R*) (1 reply) ED>SF>ED>They weren't in uniform when they did it. They weren't at work. The ED>SF>ED>weren't being paid. Unless their terms of employment covered ED>SF>ED>non-criminal activities activities off the job, they are just a bun ED>SF>ED>assholes, which as near as I can remember is not illegal. ED>SF>Uniformed employees do have a clause about outside activities affectin ED>SF>their emplyability. ED>Do you happen to know what it is? I can see it for the police, who are "on ED>duty" full time, but firemen? ED>--- ED> þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy I will ask some friends in the uniformed services to check the exact clause and wording Date: Sunday, November 15, 1998 9:10pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 748019 To: Steve Flur Re: Da cops (Reply to #748016, Reply to #748005, Reply to #748003, R*) (1 reply) SF>ED>Do you happen to know what it is? I can see it for the police, who SF>ED>duty" full time, but firemen? SF> SF>I will ask some friends in the uniformed services to check the exact SF>clause and wording That would be interesting. I don't much care for their sense of humor, but I care even less for seeing them fired for non criminal behaviour off the job. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Monday, November 16, 1998 1:05pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Steve Flur Msg#: 748023 To: Editor Re: Da cops (Reply to #748019, Reply to #748016, Reply to #748005, R*) (1 reply) ED>SF>ED>Do you happen to know what it is? I can see it for the police, who ED>SF>ED>duty" full time, but firemen? ED>SF> ED>SF>I will ask some friends in the uniformed services to check the exact ED>SF>clause and wording ED>That would be interesting. I don't much care for their sense of humor, but ED>I care even less for seeing them fired for non criminal behaviour off the ED>job. ED>--- ED> þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Have you read about the new NYCLU's new report about how few officers reported to the CCRB are actually disciplined? Date: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 7:35am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 748029 To: Steve Flur Re: Da cops (Reply to #748023, Reply to #748019, Reply to #748016, R*) (1 reply) SF>D>SF>ED>Do you happen to know what it is? I can see it for the police, SF>ED>SF>ED>duty" full time, but firemen? SF>ED>SF> SF>ED>SF>I will ask some friends in the uniformed services to check the e SF>ED>SF>clause and wording SF> SF>ED>That would be interesting. I don't much care for their sense of hum SF>ED>I care even less for seeing them fired for non criminal behaviour o SF>ED>job. SF> SF>Have you read about the new NYCLU's new report about how few officers SF>reported to the CCRB are actually disciplined? Nope. I presume you have definitive cases where they should have been disciplined, not merely statistics. Statistics are like bullshit. Easy to spread. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 8:07am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Steve Flur Msg#: 748030 To: Editor Re: Da cops (Reply to #748029, Reply to #748023, Reply to #748019, R*) ED>SF>D>SF>ED>Do you happen to know what it is? I can see it for the police, ED>SF>ED>SF>ED>duty" full time, but firemen? ED>SF>ED>SF> ED>SF>ED>SF>I will ask some friends in the uniformed services to check the e ED>SF>ED>SF>clause and wording ED>SF> ED>SF>ED>That would be interesting. I don't much care for their sense of hum ED>SF>ED>I care even less for seeing them fired for non criminal behaviour o ED>SF>ED>job. ED>SF> ED>SF>Have you read about the new NYCLU's new report about how few officers ED>SF>reported to the CCRB are actually disciplined? ED>Nope. I presume you have definitive cases where they should have been ED>disciplined, not merely statistics. Statistics are like bullshit. Easy to ED>spread. ED>--- ED> þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy The report itself is extremely comprehensive, including both statistical trends as well as specific cases. Date: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 6:44pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 748033 To: Editor Re: Da cops (Reply to #748002, Reply to #747995, Reply to #747983, R*) (2 replies) ED>SF>Do you really see no problem with uniformed city employees engaging in ED>SF>public acts of racism, of which this was only the most recent act? ED>They weren't in uniform when they did it. They weren't at work. They ED>weren't being paid. Unless their terms of employment covered ED>non-criminal activities activities off the job, they are just a bunch of ED>assholes, which as near as I can remember is not illegal. One employee was fired from her job for telling a racist joke. She was at a PRIVATE party among so-called friends when she told this joke. Someone mentioned that she told a racist joke and it was enough to have her fired without her being able to defend herself. She was subsequently ordered to be rehired and was to receive her back pay as well. Even more, the judge that originally stated that it was proper for her to be fired for telling this joke at a private party was fined! It has come to the point where our 1st amendment rights are going down the drain. We have no right to say or think things that are not politically correct. I guess we may be becoming more like a communist nation in terms of this aspect. Date: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 9:00am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 748038 To: Kkid Re: Da cops (Reply to #748033, Reply to #748002, Reply to #747995, R*) (1 reply) K >ED>SF>Do you really see no problem with uniformed city employees engag K >ED>SF>public acts of racism, of which this was only the most recent ac K > K >ED>They weren't in uniform when they did it. They weren't at work. The K >ED>weren't being paid. Unless their terms of employment covered K >ED>non-criminal activities activities off the job, they are just a bun K >ED>assholes, which as near as I can remember is not illegal. K > K >One employee was fired from her job for telling a racist joke. She was K >at a PRIVATE party among so-called friends when she told this joke. K >Someone mentioned that she told a racist joke and it was enough to hav K >her fired without her being able to defend herself. She was subsequent K >ordered to be rehired and was to receive her back pay as well. Even K >more, the judge that originally stated that it was proper for her to b K >fired for telling this joke at a private party was fined! K >It has come to the point where our 1st amendment rights are going down K >the drain. We have no right to say or think things that are not K >politically correct. I guess we may be becoming more like a communist K >nation in terms of this aspect. I can't say that I disagree. In the last few weeks I've been watching reruns of "All in the Family". A major landmark in TV and culture in this country. We finally admitted to everything from the existence of toilets to the existence of rascism. Can you imagine that show being aired today? The uproar would be deafening. Meanwhile, Dennis Franz (on NYPD Blue) grabs his crotch and says things like "plea bargain this" (or some such), and it is considered cute. On one had we revel in our diversity, while on the other we are squashed for any attempt to expound on it.... unless of course the things we say and do are "approved" methods of expounding on the diversity. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 10:17am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Steve Flur Msg#: 748039 To: Kkid Re: Da cops (Reply to #748033, Reply to #748002, Reply to #747995, R*) KK>ED>SF>Do you really see no problem with uniformed city employees engaging in KK>ED>SF>public acts of racism, of which this was only the most recent act? KK>ED>They weren't in uniform when they did it. They weren't at work. They KK>ED>weren't being paid. Unless their terms of employment covered KK>ED>non-criminal activities activities off the job, they are just a bunch of KK>ED>assholes, which as near as I can remember is not illegal. KK>One employee was fired from her job for telling a racist joke. She was KK>at a PRIVATE party among so-called friends when she told this joke. KK>Someone mentioned that she told a racist joke and it was enough to have KK>her fired without her being able to defend herself. She was subsequently KK>ordered to be rehired and was to receive her back pay as well. Even KK>more, the judge that originally stated that it was proper for her to be KK>fired for telling this joke at a private party was fined! KK>It has come to the point where our 1st amendment rights are going down KK>the drain. We have no right to say or think things that are not KK>politically correct. I guess we may be becoming more like a communist KK>nation in terms of this aspect. I do find it rather ironic that doing and/or saying racist/bigoted things are so vehemently defended constitutionally, while being tolerant is attacked as being "politicaly correct" rather than encouraged. Date: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 10:20am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Steve Flur Msg#: 748040 To: Editor Re: Da cops (Reply to #748038, Reply to #748033, Reply to #748002, R*) (1 reply) ED>K >ED>SF>Do you really see no problem with uniformed city employees engag ED>K >ED>SF>public acts of racism, of which this was only the most recent ac ED>K > ED>K >ED>They weren't in uniform when they did it. They weren't at work. The ED>K >ED>weren't being paid. Unless their terms of employment covered ED>K >ED>non-criminal activities activities off the job, they are just a bun ED>K >ED>assholes, which as near as I can remember is not illegal. ED>K > ED>K >One employee was fired from her job for telling a racist joke. She was ED>K >at a PRIVATE party among so-called friends when she told this joke. ED>K >Someone mentioned that she told a racist joke and it was enough to hav ED>K >her fired without her being able to defend herself. She was subsequent ED>K >ordered to be rehired and was to receive her back pay as well. Even ED>K >more, the judge that originally stated that it was proper for her to b ED>K >fired for telling this joke at a private party was fined! ED>K >It has come to the point where our 1st amendment rights are going down ED>K >the drain. We have no right to say or think things that are not ED>K >politically correct. I guess we may be becoming more like a communist ED>K >nation in terms of this aspect. ED>I can't say that I disagree. In the last few weeks I've been watching ED>reruns of "All in the Family". A major landmark in TV and culture in this ED>country. We finally admitted to everything from the existence of toilets to ED>the existence of rascism. Can you imagine that show being aired today? The ED>uproar would be deafening. Meanwhile, Dennis Franz (on NYPD Blue) ED>grabs his crotch and says things like "plea bargain this" (or some such), ED>and it is considered cute. ED>On one had we revel in our diversity, while on the other we are squashed ED>for any attempt to expound on it.... unless of course the things we say and ED>do are "approved" methods of expounding on the diversity. ED>--- ED> þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy So.....do you think a society that can produce the beating death of Mathew Shepard has sufficiently learned tolreance? Date: Tuesday, November 24, 1998 2:42pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Steve Flur Msg#: 748055 To: ** ALL ** Re: DISCUSSION? How unfortunate that on a discussion driven board, such exchanges only seem to occur between persons who agree with each other. Date: Monday, December 7, 1998 11:55pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Big Al Msg#: 748086 To: Steve Flur Re: Da cops (Reply to #748040, Reply to #748038, Reply to #748033, R*) (1 reply) racist or not these guys were entitled to express themselves and are protectected under the first ammendment of the constition. i may not like what they had to say thot iwas in bad taste but. never the less it is their right to say it. Date: Tuesday, December 8, 1998 11:45am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Steve Flur Msg#: 748088 To: Big Al Re: Da cops (Reply to #748086, Reply to #748040, Reply to #748038, R*) (1 reply) BA>racist or not these guys were entitled to express themselves and are BA>protectected under the first ammendment of the constition. i may not BA>like what they had to say thot iwas in bad taste but. never the less BA>it is their right to say it. The difference is that these men are uniformed officers delegated to enforcing the law and protecting rights. Can people feel safe when racist are the ones protecting. Date: Wednesday, December 9, 1998 8:17am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 748116 To: Steve Flur Re: Da cops (Reply to #748088, Reply to #748086, Reply to #748040, R*) (1 reply) SF>A>racist or not these guys were entitled to express themselves and are SF>BA>protectected under the first ammendment of the constition. i may no SF>BA>like what they had to say thot iwas in bad taste but. never the les SF>BA>it is their right to say it. SF>The difference is that these men are uniformed officers delegated to SF>enforcing the law and protecting rights. Can people feel safe when SF>racist are the ones protecting. Irrelevant. Wrong issue. The issue is whether they are entitled to private opinions and the right to express those issues. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Wednesday, December 9, 1998 10:26am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Steve Flur Msg#: 748117 To: Editor Re: Da cops (Reply to #748116, Reply to #748088, Reply to #748086, R*) ED>SF>A>racist or not these guys were entitled to express themselves and are ED>SF>BA>protectected under the first ammendment of the constition. i may no ED>SF>BA>like what they had to say thot iwas in bad taste but. never the les ED>SF>BA>it is their right to say it. ED>SF>The difference is that these men are uniformed officers delegated to ED>SF>enforcing the law and protecting rights. Can people feel safe when ED>SF>racist are the ones protecting. ED>Irrelevant. Wrong issue. The issue is whether they are entitled to private ED>opinions and the right to express those issues. ED>--- ED> þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy It is not irrelavent in the light of increased police brutality issues. Date: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 8:14am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 748154 To: ** ALL ** Re: Helllllooooooo???? (3 replies) Anyone home? Impeachment vote on Thursday and nary a grumble? I for one feel that if there is ever a Pulitzer for lying, you know who will be a front runner. His latest apology, including the words "I was forced to lie because of my shame" was truly magnificent. I mean it literally made the earth move for me, it was so magnificent. You know, he's probably a pretty decent guy if only he'd try the truth every now and then. Date: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 10:30am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Steve Flur Msg#: 748155 To: Editor Re: Helllllooooooo???? (Reply to #748154) (2 replies) ED>Anyone home? Impeachment vote on Thursday and nary a grumble? ED>I for one feel that if there is ever a Pulitzer for lying, you know who ED>will be a front runner. His latest apology, including the words "I was ED>forced to lie because of my shame" was truly magnificent. I mean it ED>literally made the earth move for me, it was so magnificent. ED>You know, he's probably a pretty decent guy if only he'd try the truth ED>every now and then. BUT...are these the "high crimes and misdemraners" decribed in the Constitution for which impeachment is the ultimate penalty. Date: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 10:34pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 748157 To: Editor Re: Helllllooooooo???? (Reply to #748154) (1 reply) ED>Anyone home? Impeachment vote on Thursday and nary a grumble? ED>You know, he's probably a pretty decent guy if only he'd try the truth ED>every now and then. He probably does not know the meaning of the word truth. Date: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 8:08am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 748161 To: Steve Flur Re: Helllllooooooo???? (Reply to #748155, Reply to #748154) (1 reply) SF>D>Anyone home? Impeachment vote on Thursday and nary a grumble? SF> SF>ED>I for one feel that if there is ever a Pulitzer for lying, you know SF>ED>will be a front runner. His latest apology, including the words "I SF>ED>forced to lie because of my shame" was truly magnificent. I mean it SF>ED>literally made the earth move for me, it was so magnificent. SF> SF>ED>You know, he's probably a pretty decent guy if only he'd try the tr SF>ED>every now and then. SF>BUT...are these the "high crimes and misdemraners" decribed in the SF>Constitution for which impeachment is the ultimate penalty. Impeachment is not a penalty, its a process. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 8:08am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 748162 To: Kkid Re: Helllllooooooo???? (Reply to #748157, Reply to #748154) K >ED>Anyone home? Impeachment vote on Thursday and nary a grumble? K > K > K >ED>You know, he's probably a pretty decent guy if only he'd try the tr K >ED>every now and then. K > K >He probably does not know the meaning of the word truth. I've been reading Spin Cycle, by Howard Kurz. I'd say that is quite literally true. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 11:32am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Steve Flur Msg#: 748163 To: Editor Re: Helllllooooooo???? (Reply to #748161, Reply to #748155, Reply to #748154) (1 reply) ED>SF>D>Anyone home? Impeachment vote on Thursday and nary a grumble? ED>SF> ED>SF>ED>I for one feel that if there is ever a Pulitzer for lying, you know ED>SF>ED>will be a front runner. His latest apology, including the words "I ED>SF>ED>forced to lie because of my shame" was truly magnificent. I mean it ED>SF>ED>literally made the earth move for me, it was so magnificent. ED>SF> ED>SF>ED>You know, he's probably a pretty decent guy if only he'd try the tr ED>SF>ED>every now and then. ED>SF>BUT...are these the "high crimes and misdemraners" decribed in the ED>SF>Constitution for which impeachment is the ultimate penalty. ED>Impeachment is not a penalty, its a process. ED>--- ED> þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Technical semantics aside, do you believe that these proceddings will set the precedent that any majority party in congress can set aside presidential elections they loose, even if the actions are not "high crimes". Date: Friday, December 18, 1998 7:36am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 748169 To: Steve Flur Re: Helllllooooooo???? (Reply to #748163, Reply to #748161, Reply to #748155, R*) (1 reply) SF>ED>SF>BUT...are these the "high crimes and misdemraners" decribed in t SF>ED>SF>Constitution for which impeachment is the ultimate penalty. SF> SF>ED>Impeachment is not a penalty, its a process. SF> SF>Technical semantics aside, do you believe that these proceddings will SF>set the precedent that any majority party in congress can set aside SF>presidential elections they loose, even if the actions are not "high SF>crimes". But you can't put semantics aside. The man has been accused. A substantial portion of the country feels he should be removed from office. For the sake of the country, as well as the man's personal vindication, a formal finding is necessary. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Friday, December 18, 1998 9:10am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Steve Flur Msg#: 748170 To: Editor Re: Helllllooooooo???? (Reply to #748169, Reply to #748163, Reply to #748161, R*) (1 reply) ED>SF>ED>SF>BUT...are these the "high crimes and misdemraners" decribed in t ED>SF>ED>SF>Constitution for which impeachment is the ultimate penalty. ED>SF> ED>SF>ED>Impeachment is not a penalty, its a process. ED>SF> ED>SF>Technical semantics aside, do you believe that these proceddings will ED>SF>set the precedent that any majority party in congress can set aside ED>SF>presidential elections they loose, even if the actions are not "high ED>SF>crimes". ED>But you can't put semantics aside. The man has been accused. A substantial ED>portion of the country feels he should be removed from office. For the sake ED>of the country, as well as the man's personal vindication, a formal finding ED>is necessary. ED>--- ED> þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy The latest polls show more than 60% oppose impeachment and removal. Date: Friday, December 18, 1998 10:27am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 748172 To: Steve Flur Re: Helllllooooooo???? (Reply to #748170, Reply to #748169, Reply to #748163, R*) (2 replies) SF>ED>But you can't put semantics aside. The man has been accused. A subs SF>ED>portion of the country feels he should be removed from office. For SF>ED>of the country, as well as the man's personal vindication, a formal SF>ED>is necessary. SF> SF>The latest polls show more than 60% oppose impeachment and removal. Yup... That's what I said, a large portion of the country, almost as many as voted for him, want to proceed with the impeachment and possibly removal. Its called a democracy. If 40% of the populace can make the man president, then 40% can ask that he be reviewed. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Friday, December 18, 1998 11:36am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Steve Flur Msg#: 748173 To: Editor Re: Helllllooooooo???? (Reply to #748172, Reply to #748170, Reply to #748169, R*) (1 reply) ED>SF>ED>But you can't put semantics aside. The man has been accused. A subs ED>SF>ED>portion of the country feels he should be removed from office. For ED>SF>ED>of the country, as well as the man's personal vindication, a formal ED>SF>ED>is necessary. ED>SF> ED>SF>The latest polls show more than 60% oppose impeachment and removal. ED>Yup... That's what I said, a large portion of the country, almost as many ED>as voted for him, want to proceed with the impeachment and possibly ED>removal. Its called a democracy. If 40% of the populace can make the man ED>president, then 40% can ask that he be reviewed. ED>--- ED> þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Next thing you will be saying that removal will only require 1/3 of the Senate. Date: Friday, December 18, 1998 3:13pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 748175 To: Steve Flur Re: Helllllooooooo???? (Reply to #748173, Reply to #748172, Reply to #748170, R*) (1 reply) SF>ED>Yup... That's what I said, a large portion of the country, almost a SF>ED>as voted for him, want to proceed with the impeachment and possibly SF>ED>removal. Its called a democracy. If 40% of the populace can make th SF>ED>president, then 40% can ask that he be reviewed. SF> Do you question my numbers. I'll go one step further. If you stop playing with percentages, which hide the details, you will find that the actual head count wanting impeachment is nearly twice the head count that elected him. Clinton won with something like 40% of the popular vote. (I think it was a bit higher actually.) However, less than half the registered voters voted. The polls are measuring the total elegible voting populace. So, like it or not, almost twice as many people want him impeached as voted for him in the first place. Damned if I understand why you are so fond of the guy. He fucked over gays more blatantly and more thoroughly than any other group that supported him. SF>Next thing you will be saying that removal will only require 1/3 of th SF>Senate. I will be polite and point out that that comment was obnoxious and confrontational. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Saturday, December 19, 1998 10:18pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 748178 To: Editor Re: Helllllooooooo???? (Reply to #748175, Reply to #748173, Reply to #748172, R*) (1 reply) ED>I will be polite and point out that that comment was ED>obnoxious and confrontational. I gave up quite a while ago pointing out anything to Steve. Meanwhile I am sure you heard the news that the Clinton WAS impeached. Date: Sunday, December 20, 1998 11:24pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Big Al Msg#: 748179 To: Editor Re: Helllllooooooo???? (Reply to #748154) (1 reply) well congress did their consytitutional duty its not that i care about xclintons sexual escapades1 but if i lied in court or to a federal grand jury i'd be subject to fine and/or imprisonment. we must send a message to the excutive branch of gov't that no one is above the law and especially the president he of all citizens must answer to a higher degree of responsibility and accounting! of his actions! nixon resigned coz he cut a deal with jerry ford to pardon him after he resigned!!!!!which ford esentially did! as for clinton he has no credibility what so ever as he has become known as a bald face LIAR! IN ANY THING AND EVERY THING THEREFORE HE HAS BETRAYED HIS SACRED TRUST! YES ALL POLITICIANS LIE. BUT UNDER OATH IS UN ACCEPTIBE IT IS A MOCKER POF THE JUSTICE SYSTEM WHICH HE IS CONSTITUTIONALLY RE QUIRED TO UPHOLD! YES I'M YELLING coz i'm mad , mad as hell and i hope the senate hits this guy with a $ milllion + fine at the very least! or votes to recind his lifetime pension! coz it is my belief now that ok it cant be proved but i think he lied about white water too! whats your view??? alan Date: Sunday, December 20, 1998 11:26pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Big Al Msg#: 748180 To: Steve Flur Re: Helllllooooooo???? (Reply to #748155, Reply to #748154) (1 reply) i doubt hes a pretty decent guy! this proves my point hes a sleez ball who use pr to cover the truth of all his mis deeds Date: Monday, December 21, 1998 2:51pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Steve Flur Msg#: 748181 To: Big Al Re: Helllllooooooo???? (Reply to #748180, Reply to #748155, Reply to #748154) BA>i doubt hes a pretty decent guy! this proves my point hes a sleez ball BA>who use pr to cover the truth of all his mis deeds The rest of the country appears to disagree. Since the "impeachment" Clinton's approval has increased to 66%-73% depending on the poll. Date: Monday, December 21, 1998 6:04pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 748183 To: Kkid Re: Helllllooooooo???? (Reply to #748178, Reply to #748175, Reply to #748173, R*) (1 reply) K >ED>I will be polite and point out that that comment was K >ED>obnoxious and confrontational. K > K >I gave up quite a while ago pointing out anything to Steve. K >Meanwhile I am sure you heard the news that the Clinton WAS impeached. I'll tell ya... I wish I could wholeheartedly cheer. The guy is an embarrassment. The process is an embarrassment. Children go to bed hungry, and at the same time those creeps get paid six figure salaries to work a three day week. The President blows millions of dollars in public funds on mock political trips that turn into fund raisers. What a lousy example to set. Hey.... what is the hebrew term you once used, meant that you didn't just have to obey the law, you had to avoid looking like you were disobeying it because someone who didn't know better might observe your actions and conclude that what you were doing is proper. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Monday, December 21, 1998 6:04pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 748184 To: Big Al Re: Helllllooooooo???? (Reply to #748179, Reply to #748154) BA>whats your view??? I could care less what he does with his private parts, that's between him and his wife. But I do care big time when he lies under oath. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Monday, December 21, 1998 6:55pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 748185 To: Editor Re: Helllllooooooo???? (Reply to #748183, Reply to #748178, Reply to #748175, R*) (1 reply) ED>I'll tell ya... I wish I could wholeheartedly cheer. The guy is an ED>embarrassment. The process is an embarrassment. Children go to bed hungry, ED>and at the same time those creeps get paid six figure salaries to work a ED>three day week. The President blows millions of dollars in public funds on ED>mock political trips that turn into fund raisers. What a lousy example to ED>set. And what about the great job we did in Iraq. I heard it expressed that all we managed to do was kill a bunch of innocent falafel venders. Sadaam is still out there and will get us one of these days. Nothing was accomplished. ED>Hey.... what is the hebrew term you once used, meant that you didn't just ED>have to obey the law, you had to avoid looking like you were disobeying it ED>because someone who didn't know better might observe your actions and ED>conclude that what you were doing is proper. The term is "mahr-ahs eye-in". Date: Tuesday, December 22, 1998 8:38am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 748187 To: Kkid Re: Helllllooooooo???? (Reply to #748185, Reply to #748183, Reply to #748178, R*) (1 reply) K >ED>I'll tell ya... I wish I could wholeheartedly cheer. The guy is an K >ED>embarrassment. The process is an embarrassment. Children go to bed K >ED>and at the same time those creeps get paid six figure salaries to w K >ED>three day week. The President blows millions of dollars in public f K >ED>mock political trips that turn into fund raisers. What a lousy exam K >ED>set. K > K >And what about the great job we did in Iraq. I heard it expressed that K >all we managed to do was kill a bunch of innocent falafel venders. K >Sadaam is still out there and will get us one of these days. Nothing w K >accomplished. Straight out of the Michael Douglas cookbook in American President. He bombed Libyan intelligence headquarters at night so as to minimize casualties, and in the process sparing all of the culprits and killing several innocent janitors. Hollywood ethics at work. I never understood that. K >ED>Hey.... what is the hebrew term you once used, meant that you didn' K >ED>have to obey the law, you had to avoid looking like you were disobe K >ED>because someone who didn't know better might observe your actions a K >ED>conclude that what you were doing is proper. K > K >The term is "mahr-ahs eye-in". Thanks.. I am locked in an argument on my synagogue's listserver and I'm trying to build an argument based on "mahr-ahs eye-in" type of logic, meaning that by NOT impeaching the guy we are setting a helluva bad example. It is interesting that the most liberal of liberals I know are saying that if the man had a shred of decency he would resign. Some are actually saying that if the impeachment serves as an object lesson to the rest of our legislators, it might be worth the pain. I mean... have you seen the support budget for Congress? Its over $1,000,000 per head. And that's just for office, staff, etc. Two years ago those bastards spent over $100,000 on ice deliveries. Fucking ICE! Sorry... I'm getting wound up again. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Wednesday, December 23, 1998 7:13pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Kkid Msg#: 748190 To: Editor Re: Helllllooooooo???? (Reply to #748187, Reply to #748185, Reply to #748183, R*) ED>It is interesting that the most liberal of liberals I know are saying that ED>if the man had a shred of decency he would resign. Some are actually ED>saying that if the impeachment serves as an object lesson to the rest of ED>our legislators, it might be worth the pain. I mean... have you seen the ED>support budget for Congress? Its over $1,000,000 per head. And that's just ED>for office, staff, etc. Two years ago those bastards spent over $100,000 on ED>ice deliveries. Fucking ICE! ED>Sorry... I'm getting wound up again. It seems we are in for some more dirt on Clinton as the hearings will continue :-) Date: Tuesday, December 29, 1998 7:53am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 748191 To: Vida Re: You once asked me for a reference on this. This is as close as I can come. Its from the current issue of TNR. --------------------------- Through the last generation, the portion of African Americans living in middle-class circumstances has more than doubled. Some kind of watershed was crossed in 1994, when the average income of black families in Queens, long a community treated as symbolic of working-class to middle-class transition, surpassed the average income of white families there. Georgia, Maryland, and other states now contain large, economically independent black middle-class areas where life is suburban, family structures conventional, and values entirely middle-American. Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 3:31am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Conundrum Msg#: 748210 To: Editor Re: Helllllooooooo???? (Reply to #748172, Reply to #748170, Reply to #748169, R*) (1 reply) ED>SF>The latest polls show more than 60% oppose impeachment and ED>SF>removal. ED>Yup... That's what I said, a large portion of the country, almost as many ED>as voted for him, want to proceed with the impeachment and possibly ED>removal. Its called a democracy. If 40% of the populace can make the man ED>president, then 40% can ask that he be reviewed. This is a falacy -- 40% of the populace is not voting that he be reviewed; 40% believe that he should be. By the same token, while about 60% believed that he should be president last election, only 40% voted to do so, and even fewer not to. However, if you want to count % of those voting rather than % of those polled, feel free to do so, at that rate, we've got <150 senators voting vs. 300M not bothering (because nobody officially asked them, which is why your argument is not only ridiculous, but meaningless) = .5x10 to the -6th power percent. Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 7:32am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 748212 To: Conundrum Re: Helllllooooooo???? (Reply to #748210, Reply to #748172, Reply to #748170, R*) (1 reply) C >ED>SF>The latest polls show more than 60% oppose impeachment and C >ED>SF>removal. C >ED>Yup... That's what I said, a large portion of the country, almost a C >ED>as voted for him, want to proceed with the impeachment and possibly C >ED>removal. Its called a democracy. If 40% of the populace can make th C >ED>president, then 40% can ask that he be reviewed. C > C >This is a falacy -- 40% of the populace is not voting that he be C >reviewed; 40% believe that he should be. C > By the same token, while about 60% believed that he should be C >president last election, only 40% voted to do so, and even fewer not t C > However, if you want to count % of those voting rather than % o C >those polled, feel free to do so, at that rate, we've got <150 senator C >voting vs. 300M not bothering (because nobody officially asked them, C >which is why your argument is not only ridiculous, but meaningless) = C >.5x10 to the -6th power percent. Fascinating math. I presume you picked up another 25 states along the way. I don't see your point. 20% of the voting public elected him. 40% want to see him stand trial. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Friday, January 15, 1999 3:28am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Conundrum Msg#: 748220 To: Editor Re: I see why he's called Editor, not Caclulator (Reply to #748212, Reply to #748210, Reply to #748172, R*) (2 replies) ED>C >This is a falacy -- 40% of the populace is not voting that he be ED>C >reviewed; 40% believe that he should be. ED>C > By the same token, while about 60% believed that he should be ED>C >president last election, only 40% voted to do so, and even fewer not t ED>C > However, if you want to count % of those voting rather than % o ED>C >those polled, feel free to do so, at that rate, we've got <150 senator ED>C >voting vs. 300M not bothering (because nobody officially asked them, ED>C >which is why your argument is not only ridiculous, but meaningless) = ED>C >.5x10 to the -6th power percent. ED>Fascinating math. I presume you picked up another 25 states along the way. ED>I don't see your point. 20% of the voting public elected him. 40% want to ED>see him stand trial. Are you stupid, or did you just write that way? Comparing a polled, and estimated number (the percentage who want Clinton to stand trial) to a more accurately polled, but not-adjusted-for-population number (the percentage who actually got to the polls and voted for Clinton) is not just comparing apples and oranges; it's statistical lying of the worst sort, multiplying the credibility of "your" side by several orders of magnitude in order to create an issue where there isn't one. To be fair, the correct number for me to compare the voting population in 1998 to is the actual number polled, not the number of Representatives in the House. Let us say that 1% of the population is polled in order to create Clinton's approval ratings (an abnormally high number, I suspect). 40% of 1% (.4%) have gone on record as saying that he should be tried. 60% of 1% (.6%) have gone on record that he should not be. 20% went on record voting that he should be President. ~15% went on record voting that he should not be President. And, going back to the estimate numbers: 40% want him to be impeached. 60% want him to do his job. ~58% wanted him to be president ~40% didn't. So what you are really saying by throwing around all of these numbers is that the .6% you like should overrule the 20% who bothered to vote him in (and the 60% who want to keep him in). I mean, it's not like we live in a representative democracy or anything. Date: Friday, January 15, 1999 7:36am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Editor Msg#: 748222 To: Conundrum Re: I see why he's called Editor, not Caclulator (Reply to #748220, Reply to #748212, Reply to #748210, R*) C >ED>C >This is a falacy -- 40% of the populace is not voting that he be C >ED>C >reviewed; 40% believe that he should be. C >ED>C > By the same token, while about 60% believed that he shoul C >ED>C >president last election, only 40% voted to do so, and even fewer C >ED>C > However, if you want to count % of those voting rather th C >ED>C >those polled, feel free to do so, at that rate, we've got <150 s C >ED>C >voting vs. 300M not bothering (because nobody officially asked t C >ED>C >which is why your argument is not only ridiculous, but meaningle C >ED>C >.5x10 to the -6th power percent. C > C >ED>Fascinating math. I presume you picked up another 25 states along t C > C >ED>I don't see your point. 20% of the voting public elected him. 40% w C >ED>see him stand trial. C > C >Are you stupid, or did you just write that way? Are you an asshole, or do you just write that way. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 11:44am Forum: CurrentEvents From: Steve Flur Msg#: 748237 To: Conundrum Re: I see why he's called Editor, not Caclulator (Reply to #748220, Reply to #748212, Reply to #748210, R*) CO>ED>C >This is a falacy -- 40% of the populace is not voting that he be CO>ED>C >reviewed; 40% believe that he should be. CO>ED>C > By the same token, while about 60% believed that he should be CO>ED>C >president last election, only 40% voted to do so, and even fewer not t CO>ED>C > However, if you want to count % of those voting rather than % o CO>ED>C >those polled, feel free to do so, at that rate, we've got <150 senator CO>ED>C >voting vs. 300M not bothering (because nobody officially asked them, CO>ED>C >which is why your argument is not only ridiculous, but meaningless) = CO>ED>C >.5x10 to the -6th power percent. CO>ED>Fascinating math. I presume you picked up another 25 states along the way CO>ED>I don't see your point. 20% of the voting public elected him. 40% want to CO>ED>see him stand trial. CO>Are you stupid, or did you just write that way? CO>Comparing a polled, and estimated number (the percentage who want CO>Clinton to stand trial) to a more accurately polled, but CO>not-adjusted-for-population number (the percentage who actually got to CO>the polls and voted for Clinton) is not just comparing apples and CO>oranges; it's statistical lying of the worst sort, multiplying the CO>credibility of "your" side by several orders of magnitude in order to CO>create an issue where there isn't one. CO> To be fair, the correct number for me to compare the voting CO>population in 1998 to is the actual number polled, not the number of CO>Representatives in the House. CO> Let us say that 1% of the population is polled in order to create CO>Clinton's approval ratings (an abnormally high number, I suspect). CO> 40% of 1% (.4%) have gone on record as saying that he should be CO>tried. CO> 60% of 1% (.6%) have gone on record that he should not be. CO> 20% went on record voting that he should be President. CO> ~15% went on record voting that he should not be President. CO>And, going back to the estimate numbers: CO> 40% want him to be impeached. CO> 60% want him to do his job. CO> ~58% wanted him to be president CO> ~40% didn't. CO>So what you are really saying by throwing around all of these numbers is CO>that the .6% you like should overrule the 20% who bothered to vote him CO>in (and the 60% who want to keep him in). I mean, it's not like we live CO>in a representative democracy or anything. Did you see the overnight polls after the State of the Union Speech. Clinton's approval rating now is betwwen 68%-72%, depending on the poll. Date: Wednesday, March 17, 1999 1:26pm Forum: CurrentEvents From: Sysop Msg#: 748611 To: ** ALL ** Re: IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT Please check out the important announcement about the future of After Hours in the /HELLO forum. thanks, Ed End of list! Select a Sysop option (R,W,F,T,S,M,E,A,O,X to exit or ? for menu):