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Operations menu Select a letter from this list, or X to exit: Date: Thursday, February 25, 1993 10:46am Forum: Theology From: Vibrantm Msg#: 318466 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: MOSHIACH.TXT file on Lubavich/Schneerson/Messiah File: MOSHIACH.TXT (Fw by Lythande, Fw by Lythande) (1 reply) Here is a recent file, text format, for those who want to hear a relatively calm explanation of the current outlook of the Lubavich movement concerning all the talk about Menachem Schneerson and the nature of the Messiah. I do not partake of these views but wish to present an opportunity for those interested in this Forum to listen to an advocate. Date: Monday, April 26, 1993 1:49am Forum: Theology From: Avengerx Msg#: 347795 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: tanach1.zip File: TANACH1.ZIP (2 replies) part 1 of the tanach in hebrew. you need a heb-ascii font to view it tis is the chumash.. i have all the rest if anyone wants it... Date: Monday, April 26, 1993 11:34pm Forum: Theology From: Avengerx Msg#: 348331 To: Lythande *EXEMPT* Re: heb_blk.com File: HEB_BLK.COM (Reply to #348123, Reply to #347795) no it is not scanned. it is a plain jane, ascii file. it will look like alots of french a,e,i,o's. unless you have a special font loaded wich changes the harware font on vgas, egas. Date: Sunday, September 19, 1993 12:30am Forum: Theology From: Scarlett Msg#: 393025 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Noah's Difficulty (3 replies) The following was shared with me by my uncle, who attends a torah discussion group at his synagogue. His rabbi shared it with the group: And the Lord said unto Noah: "Where is the ark which I commanded thee to build?" And Noah said unto the Lord: "Verily, I have had three carpenters off ill. The gopher wood supplier hath let me down -- yes, even though the gopher wood hath been on order for nigh upon 12 months. What can I do, oh Lord?" And G-d said unto Noah: "I want that ark finished even after seven days and seven nights." And Noah said, "It will be so." And it was not so. And the Lord said: "What seemeth to be the trouble this time?" And Noah said unto the Lord: "Mine subcontractor hath gone bankrupt. The pitch which Thou commandest me to put on the outside and on the inside of the ark hath not arrived. The plumber hath gone on strike. Shem, my son who helpeth me on the ark side of the business, hath formed a pop group. Lord, I am undone." And the Lord grew angry and said: "And what about the animals, the male and female of every sort that I ordered to come unto thee to keep their seed alive upon the face of the earth?" And Noah said unto the Lord: "They have been delivered to the wrong address but should arrive on Friday." And the Lord said: "HOw about the unicorns, and the fowls of the air by sevens?" And Noah wrung his hands and wept, saying: "Lord, unicorns are a discontinued line; thou canst not get them for love or money. And it hath been told unto me that the fowls of the air are sold only in half-dozens. Lord, Lord, Thou knowest how it is." And the Lord in his wisdom saaid: "Noah, my son, I knowest. Why else dost thou think I have caused a flood upon the earth?" :) Date: Sunday, September 26, 1993 12:12pm Forum: Theology From: Scarlett Msg#: 395806 To: Merlin *EXEMPT* Re: Definitions of "Spirituality" (Reply to #393916, Reply to #392960, Reply to #391642, R*) M!!! LONG POST WARNING !!! ME> there's nothing like a good "faith-quake" to make you find ME>out for sure how strongly grounded you are. What a wonderful expression--"faith-quake." Is that yours or is credit due elsewhere? I have to remember it; very evocative! ME>As for spirituality, I'm not sure I can come up with a good definition ME>right now. ME>Perhaps somebody else can. Okay, "spirituality." I decided to pull out a couple of dictionaries to see what the semanticists had to say. It's interesting how antiseptic the definitions I have discovered really are. The Merriam-Webster Dictionary doesn't have the word "spirituality" per se, but it does have "spiritual," which they define as: "1. of, relating to, or consisting of spirit: INCORPOREAL. 2. of or relating to sacred matters. 3. ecclesiastical rather than lay or temporal." Well, there's a perfect example of defining a word by using the word itself as definition. And the definition seems most careful not to involve itself with the finer details. Now, The New Webster Encyclopedic Dictionary of the English Language (biggest one I have in the house) =does= list "spirituality" as a sub-categorical definition of "spirit." Watch =this=: "The state or quality of being spiritual; spiritual character; immateriality; what belongs to the church or to religion, as distinct from temporalities; generally in plural." So again, we have thje word as its own definition, more or less, but here, interestingly enough, the definition makes a distinction about =numbers=, which i found really weird. Lastly, Webster's New World Dictionary of the English Language (do all these dictionaries show thatI'm an editor, or is it just that I'm clearly a serious Scrabble player?) lists "spirituality" separately and generally goes through the same semantic acrobatics as the other definitions do. But they make other disctinctions, for example: "opposed to sensuality, worldiness... the fact ior state of being incorporeal." INterestingly enough, other permutations on the word "spirituality" seem to come a little closer to the kinds of things we're referring to when we use the word "spirituality<" and it's an interesting phenom. Watch: "spiritualism" has as its third definition, "the philosophical doctrine that all reality is in essence spiritual; idealism." Ain't that last bit interesting? Idealism? Guess it's idealist to believe in G-d or an afterlife. And "spiritual" itself seem to come closest, calling into question the practice of modifying it as we have been doing habitually. About spiritual, Webster' New World says "of the spirit or the soul, often in a religious or maral aspect...of, from or concerned with the intellect, or what is often thought of as the better or higher part of the mind...characterized by the ascendancy of the spirit; showing much refinement of thought or feeling." My personal thoughts in a moment.... Date: Sunday, September 26, 1993 12:21pm Forum: Theology From: Scarlett Msg#: 395807 To: Merlin *EXEMPT* Re: Personal Definitions : Spirituality (2 replies) AS for a more personal definition of spirituality, I need to go back for a minute to "spiritual," which seems less contaminated by cultural bias, not counting, of course, the use of the word "spiritual" to categorize bluesy religious songs (which I happen to love....) "Spirituality" has been attached to those who practice mediumship and run seances, all interesting and perfectly legitimate pursuits, but only marginally related to the definitions we seem to be using here, though they have up to this point been unstated. That definition of "spiritual" that said "of the spirit or the soul often in a religious or moral aspect...characterized by the ascendancy of the spirit; showing much refinement or thought of feeling," feels to me a whole lot closer to the definition we seem to be operating with (or at least that I seem to be operating with). I'd probably modify the definition (unnecessarily, I'm sure) by adding "one's personal approach to G-d or worship, via thought, expression, practice and meditation; a personal philosophy of the idea of G-d and the ways in which to commune with him or her." Date: Thursday, December 16, 1993 9:39pm Forum: Theology From: Jim Benton Msg#: 427892 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Does God have free will? (2 replies) One thing that fascinates me about religious people is the basic inconsistencies in their belief structures. For example, most religious people believe in praying in the sense of asking their god for something. The trouble with this is that they also define their god as omniscient, all-good, and having a plan for the Universe. . This means that God cannot have free will. Free will involves the choice between options. But since God knows the result of these options and has a plan for the Universe, he MUST choose the option which will further this plan. . Therefore, a god so defined is incapable of answering prayers, because he would either have to change his mind, impossible from the above, or he only is doing what he would have done anyway, whether the person had prayed or not. . (Hmm, seems there is a miniscule way of wriggling out of that. Wonder if anyone will spot it? I think I can answer it, but I'm not sure. Date: Tuesday, May 7, 1991 8:48pm Forum: Theology From: Labruja Msg#: 449893 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Religion in a Nutshell (Fw by Lythande) (8 replies) Given the current discussion re: a Religion SIG, and given that you recently reminded me of this 30-second course in Comparative Religion, I am dedicating this "send" to you! A SHORT GUIDE TO COMPARATIVE RELIGIONS Taoism: Shit happens. Confucianism: Confusius say: "Shit happens" Calvinism: Shit happens because you don't work hard enough Buddhism: If shit happens, it really isn't shit. Seventh Day Adventists:No shit on Saturdays. Zen: What is the sound of shit happening? Hedonism: There's nothing like a good shit happening. Hinduism: This shit happened before. Mormon: This shit is going to happen again. Islam: If shit happens, it is the will of Allah. Moonies: Only happy shit really happens. Stoicism: This shit is good for me. Protestantism: Let the shit happen to someone else. Catholicism: Shit happens because you are BAD! Hare Krishna: Shit happens, Rama Rama. Judaism: Why does this shit always happen to US? Zoroasrianism: Shit happens half the time. Christian Science: Shit is in your mind. Atheism: Shee-it! Existentialism: What is this shit anyway? Rastafarianism: Let's smoke this shit. -=Sacreligious Strega=- Date: Wednesday, June 1, 1994 12:27am Forum: Theology From: Rand Msg#: 484189 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: masonry.faq File: MASONRY.FAQ I don't think that worked - lemme try again. Rand Date: Saturday, July 9, 1994 2:03pm Forum: Theology From: Edd Msg#: 496721 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: creation? (2 replies) If some of you are studied in the basics of Christianity and or Judaism I have a basic question... How important is it to the doctrines of these religions to consiter that one god, a god, or the god created the universe? and by what justification would "the god" want to create a universe? very curious, edd Date: Saturday, September 17, 1994 8:58pm Forum: Theology From: Scarlett Msg#: 514878 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Prayer (1 reply) For at least two years now I've been thinking about how great it would be if I could either take a course or read a book on Jewish prayer: the Sabbath services, the meaning of each prayer & the relevence of liturgical order, things like that. Well, I'm in the bokstore today, & what do I find? A book called EnTERInG JEWISH PRAYER by Reuven Hammer, abut exactly that! It's published by Schocken (who else?) & I've dipped into already. If the beginning of the book is any indication at all, this looks like exactly what I've been looking for. It's a hardcover, priced at a hefty $25.00, but I have a feeling it'll be worth it. Date: Monday, February 6, 1995 3:26pm Forum: Theology From: Betty Msg#: 575445 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Quest for Truth (Copy by Lythande) (7 replies) Hello, Anyone out there have the meaning of life? What truths have you found, learned? Are we here to experience being human? Is this world just an illusion? All my reading about different spiritual paths leads one to consider the possibility of "God". What do you think? Betty Date: Tuesday, March 21, 1995 11:20am Forum: Theology From: Walts Msg#: 575913 To: Betty *EXEMPT* Re: Quest for Truth (Reply to #575445, Copy by Lythande) ...as Adams says -- the answer is 42 ! Now at first that might seem as flippant. But it is not meant to be. Rather the meaning of life although different for each of us, is something as simple as 42. Whether it is the Christian Golden Rule, or other faith's equivalent, I would think the meaning is in the doing... Live life as one who holds life dear, one's actions will then lend all the meaning there needs be... REgards, WaltS Date: Thursday, April 13, 1995 7:43pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 582746 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: hom.txt A Rabbi's discussion on homosexuality File: HOM.TXT (4 replies) I will try to upload the text file here as I found it on the net. The first paragraph is a comment by the individual who uploaded it in the Newsgroup where I found it. I did read most of it and expect to complete the whole text. It seems quite informative so far and in line with Orthodox thought. Date: Friday, April 14, 1995 7:57am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 582880 To: Kkid *EXEMPT* Re: hom.txt A Rabbi's discussion on homosexuality (Reply to #582746) (2 replies) I would like to post a reply to the essay that I found posted on the net. The response is from a woman who chooses to use a pseudonym. I don't know how to post the response by download, etc. So here it is. Dear Shmuley, A few weeks ago I read as posted on the Hillel/SHOC list your long essay on homosecuality. I have asked a colleague to respond to you through her email because my response comes from personal experience. From your essay, you sound like a person worth talking to, so here goes. I am not coming from anywhere near the level of Jewish knowledge you possess. I'm just aliberal religious Jew who is also a lesbian (your well taken point that this is a socially constructed identity notwithstanding, it does define my life in very pracitcal ways). Jewish ethics, wisdom and practice have contributed enormously to the relationships that give meaning to my life, so I am deeply concerned with what they have to say about my choices in experience and that of friends. We are, to quote Rabbi Sue Levi Elwell, writing the texts with our lives. But first, thank you for a very intelligent and well written and humane presentation of the traditional Jewish position that puts the laws regarding homosexuality into perspective with other Jewish laws whose interpreatin has shifted to accommodate modern understanding. So, I have sometimes asked, when was the last time a middle American Jewish congregation hauled a member over the county line and stoned him for mowing his lawn on Shabbos? Who would even advocate such behavior? Who, outside the Orthodox world would do more than shurg and walk away, figuring it was his personal choice and business? Would it affect anyone's relationship with him? Their willingness to hire him? To let their kids play with his kids? His status in most modern Jewish communities? Not likely. So, the Torah says it's a big no-no. Nobody even tries to deny that, but nobody makes a big political deal out of it either. If the proscription against homosecuality is absolute and strong, the same can be said for lots of other "sins" that we tolerate in the Jewish community and in the community at large. Logically your argument for a humane and holistic understadning of that one issue should be unnecessary. Where I would like to comment upon and offer friendly criticism is in another area where I do have expertise and your experience is limited, and that has to do with your conclusion that we must make a concerted, even herculean effort to live in accordance with "divine law" (mandating heterosxuality and biological procreation) before we can be justified in rejecting the Jewish prohibition against homosexuality. Let's explore what Jewish ethics might have to say about such an effort in practice. First of all, many if not most gay people have already made considerable efforts in that direction due to soical pressures. I'd like to explore whether the actions we have taken in the course of these efforts have been ethical to ourselves, to others and to G-d. Or has Jewish law (and the laws and prejudices of the rest of society) urged, coerced and tricked us into questionable and even harmful behavior for little or no gain? Let's begin with a teenager or young adult's budding realization that s/he may be gay. Your model would hold that s/he should head for the nearest shrink and try to change. But which shrink, what form of therapry and to what end? If the ability to lvoe and the ability to experience sexual pleasure in intimate relationships are good gifts from a loving G-d, and given the dismal track record of the medical and psychological profession in reshaping sexual orientation what does it mean to seek to change through medical or psychiatric intervention? Realistically the evidence is that this hypothetical teenager's earnest efforts will either be a waste of time and money or will alnd him/her in the hands of some cultist or abusive behaviorist who who could well destroy his/her ability to love or experience pleasure in the same gender without replacing it with love or desire for the other gender, a much trickier feat. Is that person better off? Has s/he gained in virtue and the ability to live a sanctified life, or has s/he thrown a beautiful, though maybe challenging, gift back in the Creator's face? Here's where it get even trickier. Herculean efforts imply pracice, not just theory. Practicing sexuality alone is another Jewish no-no, and practicing marriage and pocreation alone is just plain impossible. So how far is a decent human being permitted to go in involving another human being in this effort? How honest does one have to be with that other person? How far do we take this? Imagine the following scenario. "Excuse me sir/maam, I think I might be a lesbain/gay man and I was wondering if you would mind lending me your time/feelings/body to see if I can't swing the other way? Now, as an ethical, honest person I must inform you that I have little or no evidence that this arrangement will evoke much feeling in me or that it will lead to serious committment, but I'm very sincere and really want to make an effort so would you consider letting me experiment by (fill in the blank) dating/holding hands/kissing/going to bes with/marrying and having children with you? Well, a woman could probably get a lot of "action" with that line, but I doubt men would "score" much. In any case, you can see the absurdity of this. Sadly, it actually happens becasue so many people take lierally the kind of well-meant advice you offer without thinking through the ethical problems of its practical application. How many of us in desperation, denial or under pressure do exactly what I've satirized above, but less honestly, lying to ourselves or others, never evaluating the impact on ourselves, our partners or even our children who become the fruit of a frustrated, loveless marriage? I've watched a lot of usch marriages break up, some quite compassionately and some very painfully. In no case was it easy for the children. Thank G-d I never went that far, but at the age of 20 I set about a rather reckless binge of sleeping with various men in the effort to prove to myself that I was "normal". The thoeroy at that time was that a good you-know-what was the "cure". I had lots of dany you=know-whats, with absolutely no results in the intimacy, caring or commitment department. I don't suppose my actions caused much harm to the men involved, all singe swingin' college boys of the 60's generation, not married or otherwise off limits. They sure didn't do much for my self esteem. Lucky for me that nobody back then got anything you couldn't cure with antibiotics, and tat I at least had the sense, resources and luck not to get preganant. I've also done psychotherapy, though not with the intent of "curing" my sexual orientaion. I did, however, shed a whole bunch of garden variery neurotic notions and came out of it pretty secure that I am indeed gay and that I want and can have a committed, monogamous relationship with a partner who shares with me the goals of living an ethical life, building a home that is deeply and meaningfully Jewish, giving our time and nergy to our community, the Jewish people and the world, giving tzedakah (which we are able to do more generously becasue of our comvbined resources and shared expenses), celebrating Shabbat, etc. this also includes raising Jewish children, which in our case we are doing ghrough adoption...which brings us to the being fruitful and multiplying part. If I understand it correctly, jewish law generally; hold that if you can't perform a mitzvah perfectly you should neverthelss try to do it the best you can, the example that comes to mind being Date: Friday, April 14, 1995 8:19am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 582906 To: Vida *EXEMPT* Re: hom.txt A Rabbi's discussion on homosexuality (Reply to #582880, Reply to #582746) (2 replies) This is a continue to copy the reply which got cut off because it was too long: that it's better to give tzedeakkah grudgingly than not at all. What is a greater mitzvah than bringing life into the world, partically if it increases the Jewish peopel? This being so, let's take the case of a Jewish gay mean and lesbain who have made these "herculean efforts" you talk about. Thankfully, they are both happy well adjusted people who are now secure in their identity and have not ruined any unfortunate heterosxual's life by luring them into a tragic marriage. Still, the commandment to multiply is incombent at elast on the man and it's arguably also a mitzvah for the owman, as logn as she's not married to anyone else... or more correctly to any other man. Is is then a mitzvah for them to openly and honestly enter into an arrangement to produce offspring, provided, of course, that they are prepared to offer a secure an loving home with one or both parites (and possibly one party's partner)? Since enither is married, there is no problem of illigitimacy. They can't marry each otehr because they can't honesly stand under the huppah knowing that marital intimacy is ipossible between them (and I'm not just talking about mechanical sex here) but maybe they love kids, want to provide their elderly parents with the joy of grandchildren, increase the Jewish people, share theri love and abundance with the next gernation...Having passed the herculean effort test, somehow skiritng its worst ethical dilemmas, if you take away the arguemnts that you yourself would erject, (senseless prejudice, myths about gay people being inherent child abusers, totally unfounded claism that they'll make the kids gay, etc.) where does that leave us? This is not a moot question. I and many of my friends have lived it. It is only due to inferility that my family is formed by adloption alone and not by both birth and adoption. When my little daughter was dipped in the mikveh, everyone present (the three rabbis and two rebbitzins, my beloved and me) flet the space opening for the Jewish neshama that needed to make its home in her. We defintely feel that we have increased the Jewish people. She is the delight of my aging parents who tell me she's keeping them alive. Although we adopted primarily becasue we longed to love and care for a child (which I truly believe is a higher form of motivation thatn notions of rescue or desire to be seen as a do-gooder) her prospects for the furtuer in the circumstances into which she was born were not bright, to say the least. with us, she will have a secure and loving home. Does Jewish law, wisom, tradition allow us to celebrate this simcha? I'd love to have your thoughts on the two questions I've raised: (1) What constitutes an adequate effort to change one's secual orientation and what efforts in that direction are prohibited due to theri possible, probable or actual harm to one's self or others? Hoe does a conscientious Jew weight the equaltion between the realistic odds of actually being able to "change" (which I understand to be pretty slim) vs. the risks to which one may subject oen's self or others in pursuit of this goal? this includes where one is required to tell the truth to potential lonve/ex partners, or how far is one allowed to go in deceving them or witholding information in order to enelist their participation in one's efforts to fulfill the herculean efforts requirement. (2) Once that test is passed, how may the now "justified" homosxual proceed to reap and share her/his Creator's figts of love, sexuality, desire and ability to parent, etc. And what can or should the (Jewish) community do to foster our ability to do the most mitzvahs we can in the best way we can? Should "justified" homosecuals be encouraged to form mononogamous relationships? What guidance does our tratiotion give gay men and lesbians who want to fulfill the mitzvah of birthng or adopting and raising Jewish children? In the interest of complete honesty, I have to tell you that these questions are interesting but acadmic to me personally since I am happily (and gay-ly) married, living in the midst of an affirming Jewish community and raising my family. I'm not about to embark on any effort herculean or otherwise to undo a good life. Also, I believe that the sexual practices prohibited in Leviticus have little or nothing to do with human love and sexuality as we know it today. Still, I'm genuinely interested in what a serious scholar who is not blinded by his personal tastes and irrational fears has to say. B'shalom, "Shoshana Ivriah" As far as I know there has been no reply to this letter. Food for thought, yes? Date: Saturday, June 24, 1995 11:12pm Forum: Theology From: Faz Msg#: 609414 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Wisdom in Emptiness (2 replies) When we look at religion in a strictly unbiased form, it brings out things we may not normall see, or care to see. Take for instance the Verba Seniorum, which was completed in the spring of 1959.The decision was to translate this text and send it to Daisetz Suzuki, considered to be one of the most prominent Oriental contemplatives of our day. What was found was that in its most austere simplicity it bore a remarkable resemblance to the Zen parables that Mr Suzuki analyzed. What was actually found out is that the Desert Fathers and the Zen Masters had more in common then previously thought. Since Zen had began in China about the end of the great age of the Desert Fathers in Egypt, they were thought to be different and incomparable. Wherever one comes face to face with asimple and mystical spirituality, the same difficulties always afect the person who sees it from the outside. All religions are inherently similar in the basics: The same questions clamor for an answer The same accustions demand to be refuted. Arent these the questions we think about from time to time...when tests of faith become too much for us....when we want to shout WHY ME,GOD?! Religion,regardless of its extraneous concepts usually have a core of Innocence Love and Faith. Any other things i missed? Please let me know...or if you want to talk Zen...and help me figure out why i studied it in the first place? Date: Tuesday, June 27, 1995 9:32pm Forum: Theology From: Faz Msg#: 610147 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Wonderful..... (5 replies) I would like to personally thank Kkid,Quack,Vida and all the others in their Debate of Orthodoxy and especially Kkid for helping me understand exactly what the Shulchan Aruch(is that right?) is. Since the debating is far from Currentevents, it is nice to see everyone explain how this thing called religion and faith works.....i like to read each one of these posts and learn something new everyday. Since some of my questions may seem simplistic, and even asinine at some times, please bear with me....i am trying to assimilate something quite voluminous a bit at a time. I am still trying to locate the previous mentioned text in an english version...does anyone know of a religious bookstore that may have said text? I would appreciate any help that can be given (address etc.) Thank you very much for taking the time to read this ..and regardless of our belief system, or opinions of each others ideas, we are all human and created in the same mold,equal in eyes of all. FAZ. Date: Saturday, July 1, 1995 4:41am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 611135 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Spirtual Intimacy (1 reply) I went to a very interesting lecture at the Open Center on Thrusday night. It is part of their "Jewish Renewal" series that is co-sponsored by Aleph, the Alliance for Jewish Renewal. The lecture was on "Spirtual Intimacy". The lecturer was Rabbi Goldie Milgrim. She was a very dynamic, charismatic speaker. She started out by telling us that she found growing up in a moderately observant Jewish household that the Jewish religion was very dry, very depleted of any emotion. She realized that the Jewish religion could not have survived for over five thousand years unless it had a wealth of nourishment to offer the soul, so she went to study. And she was able to find these traditions, and now she has reclaimed them for herself as a Jewish woman and a feminist. What she had us do is turn to the person sitting to our left and introduce ourselves. We were then to say the words "Spirtual intimacy" three times, and free associate to those words. I did not know the woman sitting to my left. But I found to my surprise that she told me that she was a feminist who had be brought up in a very unobservant home but was now struggling to reconnect to the Jewish religion. It was absoultely mind blowing! Here was a stranger to me and she was almost at the exact same point in her spirtual journey as I am at! I then turned to her. I told her that to me the words Spirtual and intimacy seem almost contradictory from what I understand of the Jewish religion. So many of the prohibitions--especially the rules about having sex during one's menstrual period seem so anti-body. And I said that I thought that part of the problem with our modern age is that sexual intimacy has become totally unspirtual--and totally not intimate. Far too many of us have gone to bed with strangers, have not connected to our partners, have had sex just for the bodily pleasure that sex can bring to us. So I thought that our struggle now was to find a spirtuality that did not repudiate intimacy--that integreted sexuality as an experssion of spirtuality. Likewise, I think that our sexuality must integreted spirtuality--so that we connect deeply to our lover, and so that we connect to the Creator in our deep acts of lovemaking with our beloved. Then the Rabbi lectured for a while. She explained to us that it is part of the Jewish tradition to learn Torah text by studying with a partner. She explained that the reason why we do this is that by studying with a partner you can see things in the text that you might not otherwise by able to see--and you also give to your patner the gift of your unique insights into the text. She gave us a story to read with a partner. The story is "Fear Begins Before WE Begin" by Noah benShea. I will reprint the story below. " In the books of wisom Jacob had studied as a boy, it said that every time a door shut,somewhere another door opened. Now, feeling not so much pushed as pulled, Jacob walked through the day, watching it move from dark to light to shades of gray. Behind him the distant outline of his village loss form and then flattened. WHAT was dissolved into WHAT WOULD BE. That evening, on the verge of a great forest, features carved by time looked out at Jacob from the trunks of the surrounding trees. Jacob stopped and stood beside the largest of the trees, hearing the tree's limbs moaning as they shifted in thw wind, hearing his own prayers in their groaning. Ahead of him, Jacob saw a woman's silhouette, and like the dark green boughs that hung over her, the woman's shoulders seemed to sag under her shawl. Jacob's pace soon brought him even with the woman. When he came up next to her, he tossed his welcome as if it were pebbles thrown against a shuttered window. The woman raised her head and discovered Jacob's smile. Then her sadness moved to confusion. His warmth was a garment she had been handed but had no place to hang. Jacob sensed the woman's bewilderment and watched her insecurity mature to doubt. To calm her, Jacob offered the woman not his strength but his vulnerability. He expalined that he was a strnger and did not know the path, and asked if she would walk with him, show HIM the way. 'Why do you ask ME for help' she complained, laboring to lift herself from the depth of her spirit. 'Can't you see I am an old woman who is alone?' 'Each of us is alone',said Jacob. 'And because each of us is alone on our journey, we sometimes pack our fears for company.' The old woman looked at Jacob, 'You may be right.' she said,and then, laughing to herself,'but sometimes our fears can keep us warm.' 'And sometimes,' said Jacob,'we are afraid of lossing the fears that keep us warm' 'Well...',said the woamn, unsure, cautiious of touching her courage. Jacob looked over his shoulder and saw the moon, full and silver, suspeneded against the night, knew that somewhere beneath the moon was where he had begun the day. 'Fear,' said Jacob, turning back to the woman, 'fear makes us not only less than we might be but less than we think we are. Faith reminds us we should doubt our fears.' Jacob motioned to the path ahead of them. "Perhaps we can lean on each other for a while.' The woman laughed out loud'How can I be a support to you??" 'Ah, that is not so difficult,' said Jacob. "you see, the difference between a Tower of Babel and a tower of strength is the difference between those who live to make themselves more and those who know the way to heaven is in making others more.' After reading this story, I was very disturbed by the punchline that the way to heaven is to make others more. I raised my hand to speak to the Rabbi. I siad to her; "Rabbi, this really disturbs me. It seems so co-dependent to me. I am a woman who has for far too long tried to find furfillment by making someone else whole. This is very dangerous way to think. She pointed out to me that the story was written by a man, from a man's point of view. Men, she said, had the tendency of living too much for themselves, not enough for the other person. She said that women, on the other hand, had the tendency to live too much for other people, not enough for themselves. So she said maybe as women we could change the punchline to read: "The difference between a Tower of Babel and a tower of strenght is the difference between those who live only to make themselves more and those who know that they must make themselves more but that they way to heven is to make ohers more.". She said that this way we can add our powerful insight--that too much self abrogation leads ultimately to destruction and that we have to balance self interest with love of others. Now this really blew my mind--the idea that we as women, as feminists, could change the text--could add to the text--could contribute our insights into to teaching. WOW!! COOL!! Date: Tuesday, July 11, 1995 6:51am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 614412 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Star of David File: STAR.TXT I thought this might be of interest to all in this sig. (I also recently downloaded the new World Group manager software, so I am itching to try to upload using the new software.) Date: Friday, July 14, 1995 4:24am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 615293 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Liberal Interpretion of Halakha (2 replies) There is an interesting article in the current issue of "Tikkun", vol. 10, no.4, July/August 1995. It is entitled "Toward A liberal Theory of Halakha" by Tikva Frymer-Kenksy. I offer up here my digested version of some of the points she raises, for all here to consider. There is a hunger for a spirtual life that appears to growing among Jews today. But the vast majority of Jews ignore Halakha. Even the few that observe Halakha often do so because they feel commanded to do so. The commandment comes from outside, external to the community and the self. The term Halkakha never really meant :law". "Halakha" refers to God's way. In Rabbinic Judaism, the Halakha shows the way of God in the world and the way of way of the world to God. The Halakha delineates the pattern of actions that defines community behavior. It situates us in our history (on the path from Sinai) and the comsos. It provides a roadmap for a community to attain its shared vision--standing with God at Sinai, being God's parners in the world. The Halakha provides the "map" to follow to approach that shared vision. The ulitmate purpose of the Halakha is to infuse our daily biological and social activity with a sense of divinity, purpose, and community, so that we can truly live in the path of God. Halakha cannot accoplish its purpose unless it has a compelling rationale. Among non-Orthodox Jews the "because we are commanded" rationale is not sufficient. Halakha developed because at Sinai, our people experienced God's presence as the determining factor of communal life. The people wrote this revelation down as laws becasuse this is how they understood it. Before the destruction of the Second Temple, the Isreaelites reinterpreted these commandments with the guidance of their preisest and propherts. After the destruction of the Second Temple, the Sages refused additinal revelations. They turned the written text of the Torah into the source of all knowledge and claimed the authoirty to read new meanings into the written text by the process of Midrash. Generations have of rabbis have since interpreted and amended their readings and laws. We follow the Halakha because by doing so we follow in the path of our ancestors, joining with them on the course that they set. In doing so, we continue our creation in the image of God. Our goal as a people is to attempt to live up to the injuncion to be a holy people. Our most imporant princiiple is to be a holy people. This is a prinicple which the rules themselves must conform, one which governs the intrepretations that forms the core of the halakhic process. Without such priniciples, the law provides no way to evaluate itself. Our religious duty is not only to follw the path. We must monitor and adjust the path so that it leads to holiness and the divine order. The vision of divine or perfect reality is unachieveable because it strives for the impossible: a moment of pefection that lasts forever. But this perfection is neverthelss the ideal against which we measure our existence. If a particular rule points us in unholy ways and and would lead us to a less than holy relaity, then it must be altered. Observing Halakha can brings us many gifts, for it gives us not only disciple, but a sense of beloniging, even a feeling of righteousness. In evaluating any rule we should ask ourselves this question: DOES THE RULE ACCORD EVERYONE HIS/HER FULL HUMANITY? To deny a person's full humainity is to lessen the divine image of all. Ancient Isreal could not forsee everything. The Bible never transformed the ancient social structure. It did not abolish slavery, because the biblicial socio-economic system could not survive without slavery. Later, when the Rabbis came to the decision that slavery was wrong, they abolished slavery. patriachy is another form of domination, by males over females. Now that we realize this, it is our religious duty to dismantle patriachy. It is also our religious duty to dsimantle heterosexism, racism, ageism and ultimately all forms of domination. SHOULD MILK BE KEPT SEPERATE FROM MEAT? The most important question is not why should a Jew keep milk seperate from meat, but rather, why not. We do not start with a blank late. The path to divinity is a communal way that includes the living and those past. That connection should not be broken lightly, for the connectnedness, the caring beyoind the self, is part of the very essence of divinity. In keeping the seperation betweeen milk and meat, we walk the path that our ancestors began. We alter our communal path only when it leads us in directions that we now percieve as unrighteous, that can no longer express our love for God and can no longer lead us to a reality that we percieve as better. This leads us to a presumption in favor of keeping traditions and traditional strictures unless they do harm. SHOULD WE OBSERVE SHAATNEZ, THE AVOIDANCE OF FABRIC COMPOSED OF BOTH WOOL AND LINEN? We might argue, why not, since this traditional appears not to do any harm. But on closer examinatin, this mitzvah could get in the way of a holistic attitude toward the world. Avoiding shaatnez means distintigishing between plant products and those of living animals. Logically we should extend the prohibition to separate contton and wool, syntetics and wool, and synthetics and cotton. This casts sepration as the most important principle and prevents us from acknowledging that part of tikkum olam (the healing of the earth) is the creation of unity. If we do not adopt the principle behind shaatnez, it becomes a quaint tradtion divorced from communal values, and few will shoose to observe it. (Vida's note--I think the author may have violated her own first principle here--the presumption in favor of adhering to all exisitng strictures. Also I don't understand the logic of why seperating milk from meat is ok, but seperating wool from linen is not ok. Couldn't it also be said that seperating milk from meat also takes one away from the principle that the healing of the earth requires recognition of unity?) SHOULD KOSHER SLAUGHTER BE ABOLISHED? There is no doubt that kosher slaughter was once the most humane way to kill animals. But this was at a time when animals were slaughtered individuallly. Now, with factory conditions, animals frequesntly undergo lengthy periosds of teror as they await instantaneous death. Our modern methods of slaughter raise other questions. Veal comes from calves that have been confines in tiny pens so that their muscles do not develop. Do such conditions make veal unkosher? Agriculture has advanced to the point that we no longer need meat to survive. in fact we can feed more people if we grow food than we can from eat. Perhaps now is a time that we should become vegetarians as a people. WHAT ABOUT THE KISSUSHIN, THE JEWISH MARRIAGE RITUAL? Our marriage ritual is based on the paradigm that the man brings the woman into his domain. Is this our vision of a holy marriage? Does one person acquire another and claim exclusvie rights to her? Or do two people come together and create a home and children in love and Torah? If mutuality is our ideal of marriage, pershpas our wedding ceremony should cahnge to reflect this ideal. WHAT ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY? The written Torah proscibes homosexual mating. Perhaps this is another instance in which the parth upon which our ancestors set leads in a direction that invalidates and hurts memembers of the community. If so, the path must be redirected to be more appropriate to our vision of ourselves and God. There are still very hard question to be faced. Jews stand as a community before Sinai and must choose and follow our path together. The power to make community decisions cannot reside with indiviudals who claim personal divine revelation. Long ago, the rabbis rejected the idea that God will continue to decide Torah by ongoing revelation. The whole people have the authority to make changes. To fully accept ol malkut shamayim, the yoke of heaven, is to accept the difficult task of envsioning heaven and finding ways to live toward that goal. Date: Saturday, July 15, 1995 5:51pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 615985 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Bridges article File: BAGELS.TXT (1 reply) Ok folks, here goes my THIRD attempt to post this article here. This time I am going to do it as an attach file. When I tried to transfer the file directly it ended up getting cut off in transition once. The second time I tried, I ended up freezing out my system and had to reboot!!!!!!!! This article is appearing courtesy of Quack, who showed kindness above and beyond the call of friendship in doing all the computer work necessary to transfer this from print to a computer file. I can not express strong enough how important it is for any one who feels sympathetic to Jewish feminism to subscribe to "Bridges". You do not have to either a Jew or a feminist to subscribe. The journal describes itself as " a journal for Jewish feminists and our friends". Jewish feminists need all the friends we can get! We get flak from the Jewish establishment for being feminists. And unfortunately, some feminists can't deal with us because we are Jews. "Bridges" costs $15 a year and can be ordered from: Bridges, PO Box 24839, Eugene OR 97402. Date: Wednesday, September 6, 1995 4:52pm Forum: Theology From: Faz Msg#: 631439 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: another question....! (3 replies) Just an observation that im a little vague on..... As a Christian(by birth only) and someone who has studied Buddhist and other philosophies i pose this question......... Buddhist philosophy considers Discrimination of any kind - be it moral or metaphysical- the product of Ignorance which obscures the original light of Suchness which is Emptiness..... If all this sounds cnfusing let me try a different approach. In Judeo Christian ideas Knowledge is the outcome of our having lost Innocence by eating the forbidden fruit. Yet no Christians or Jews(?) have ever attempted to get rid of Knowledge in order to regain the Paradise they once knew (which is the bliss of Innocence). Is this to say that we should shun all around us which is bad?..this is where i am confused. We are all social beings and ethics is essentially our concern in social life. So how can anyone essentially be "good"? Maybe it is said in the Torah or Quar'an but i dont see it. Im sorry if it sounds like im rambling but being stuck at home(and finding my old notes in philosophy while cleaning!) forced me to ask this to some of the more knowledgeable people on here. Thank you. Date: Monday, October 2, 1995 8:54am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 638467 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Creation text (1 reply) Found this on the net. I tried to post this before and screwed up. I am running late, so I will not do my usual thing of editing out the headers. Sorry. Read it anyway, I think it's cute. I'm just running late. From owner-earth-spirit@csf.colorado.edu Sun Oct 1 11:41 EDT 1995 Received: from csf.Colorado.EDU (csf.Colorado.EDU [128.138.129.195]) by mail.nyc.pipeline.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA15159 for ; Sun, 1 Oct 1995 11:41:08 -0400 Received: from host (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.6.11/8.6.9/CNS-3.5) with SMTP id JAA06483; Sun, 1 Oct 1995 09:25:55 -0600 Received: from efn.efn.org (efn.org [198.68.17.1]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.6.11/8.6.9/CNS-3.5) with SMTP id JAA06293 for ; Sun, 1 Oct 1995 09:20:59 -0600 Received: from caritas.efn.org by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA11994; Sun, 1 Oct 95 08:20:47 PDT Received: from garcia.efn.org (garcia.efn.org [198.68.17.5]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id IAA09987 for ; Sun, 1 Oct 1995 08:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by garcia.efn.org (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02454; Sun, 1 Oct 95 08:20:54 PDT Message-Id: Date: Sun, 1 Oct 1995 08:20:54 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: earth-spirit@csf.colorado.edu Sender: owner-earth-spirit@csf.colorado.edu From: Liath Mactire To: EARTH-SPIRIT Subject: for your amusement In-Reply-To: <950930234039_113463117@emout04.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Cc: EARTH-SPIRIT X-Listprocessor-Version: 7.1 -- ListProcessor by CREN Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Length: 5058 <---- Begin Forwarded Message ----> IN THE BEGINNING [author unknown] In the beginning there was the computer. And God said %Let there be light! #Enter user id. %God #Enter password. %Omniscient #Password incorrect. Try again. %Omnipotent #Password incorrect. Try again. %Technocrat #And God logged on at 12:01:00 AM, Sunday, March 1. %Let there be light! #Unrecognizable command. Try again. %Create light #Done %Run heaven and earth #And God created Day and Night. And God saw there were 0 errors. #And God logged off at 12:02:00 AM, Sunday, March 1. #Approx. funds remaining: $92.50. #And God logged on at 12:01:00 AM, Monday, March 2. %Let there be firmament in the midst of water and light #Unrecognizable command. Try again. %Create firmament #Done. %Run firmament #And God divided the heavans. And God saw there were 0 errors. #And God logged off at 12:02:00 AM, Monday, March 2. #Approx. funds remaining: $84.60. #And God logged on at 12:01:00 AM, Tuesday, March 3. %Let the waters under heaven be gathered together unto one place and let the dry land appear and #Too many characters in specification string. Try again. %Create dry_land #Done. %Run dry_land #And God divided the waters. And God saw there were 0 errors. #And God logged off at 12:02:00 AM, Tuesday, March 3. #Approx. funds remaining: $65.00. #And God logged on at 12:01:00 AM, Wednesday, March 4. %Create lights in the firmament to divide the day from the night #Unspecified type. Try again. %Create sun_moon_stars #Done %Run sun_moon_stars #And God created the heavens. And God saw there were 0 errors. #And God logged off at 12:02:00 AM, Wednesday, March 4. #Approx. funds remaining: $54.00. #And God logged on at 12:01:00 AM, Thursday, March 5. %Create fish #Done %Create fowl #Done %Run fish, fowl #And God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that creepeth wherewith the waters swarmed after its kind and every winged fowl after its kind. And God saw there were 0 errors. #And God logged off at 12:02:00 AM, Thursday, March 5. #Approx. funds remaining: $45.00. #And God logged on at 12:01:00 AM, Friday, March 6. %Create cattle #Done %Create creepy_things #Done %Now let us make man in our image #Unspecified type. Try again. %Create man #Done %Be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the air and over every living thing that creepeth upon the earth #Too many command operands. Try again. %Run multiplication #Execution terminated. 6 errors. %Insert breath #Done %Run multiplication #Execution terminated. 5 errors. %Move man to Garden of Eden #File Garden of Eden does not exist. %Create Garden.edn #Done %Move man to Garden.edn #Done %Run multiplication #Execution terminated. 4 errors. %Copy woman from man #Done %Run multiplication #Execution terminated. 3 errors. %Insert woman into man #Illegal parameters. Try again. %Insert man into woman #Done %Run multiplication #Execution terminated. 2 errors. %Create desire #Done %Run multiplication #And God saw man and woman being fruitful and multiplying in Garden.edn #Warning: No time limit on this run. 1 errors. %Create freewill #Done %Run freewill #And God saw man and woman being fruitful and multiplying in Garden.edn #Warning: No time limit on this run. 1 errors. %Undo desire #Desire cannot be undone once freewill is created. %Destroy freewill #Freewill is an inaccessible file and cannot be destroyed. #Enter replacement, cancel, or ask for help. %Help #Desire cannot be undone once freewill is created. #Freewill is an inaccessible file and cannot be destroyed. #Enter replacement, cancel, or ask for help. %Create tree_of_knowledge #And God saw man and woman being fruitful and multiplying in Garden.edn #Warning: No time limit on this run. 1 errors. %Create good, evil #Done %Activate evil #And God saw he had created shame. #Warning system error in sector E95. Man and woman not in Garden.edn. #1 errors. %Scan Garden.edn for man, woman #Search failed. %Delete shame #Shame cannot be deleted once evil has been activated. %Destroy freewill #Freewill is an inaccessible file and cannot be destroyed. #Enter replacement, cancel, or ask for help. %Stop #Unrecognizable command. Try again %Break %Break %Break #ATTENTION ALL USERS *** ATTENTION ALL USERS: COMPUTER GOING DOWN FOR REGULAR DAY OF MAINTENANCE AND REST IN FIVE MINUTES. PLEASE LOG OFF. %Create new world #You have exceeded your allocated file space. You must destroy old files before new ones can be created. %Destroy earth #Destroy earth: Please confirm. %Destroy earth confirmed #COMPUTER DOWN *** COMPUTER DOWN. SERVICES WILL RESUME SUNDAY, MARCH 8 AT 6:00 AM. YOU MUST SIGN OFF NOW. #And God logged off at 11:59:59 PM, Friday, March 6. #Approx. funds remaining: $0.00. Date: Monday, October 2, 1995 9:31pm Forum: Theology From: Jkim Msg#: 638586 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Religious freedom? (4 replies) This is the first time in a long time that I've been going to a school in NYC. Unfortunately, I have discovered that NYC observes a *lot* OF religious holidays. Especially Jewish holidays. Should a public school observe all religious holidays for *all* students or should the students in conflict simply get excused for those days? I know it seems trivial but it cuts down on what learn for the $$ that I pay. For example, why not observe days significant to Muslims or Buddhists, etc. Date: Friday, November 24, 1995 7:58am Forum: Theology From: Lady Oh Msg#: 654179 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: A Little Saying (2 replies) "So many gods, so many creeds, so many paths that wind and wind while just the art of being kind is all the sad world needs." ... Ella Wheeler Wilcox Date: Tuesday, December 12, 1995 7:48am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 657740 To: Lythande *EXEMPT* Re: Jewish book club??? (Reply to #657267, Reply to #651855) ok. Jewish Book Club 834 N.12 th Street Allentown, PA 18102 (610) 437-2159 (Sorry, there is no 800 number!) Date: Saturday, December 16, 1995 1:27am Forum: Theology From: Faz Msg#: 658503 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: a little theological factoid.. :) (2 replies) hello all. a little Judaic factoid for you. Rosh Hashanah,1654 The first Jewish holiday services conducted anywhere in what became the united states were held in NY in observance of Rosh Hashanah on September 12-13 1654 ..a week after the first arrival of23 jews from Brazil. New Amsterdam forbade public worship by anyone except members of the Reformed Church, but the holiday won legal recognition-the first accorded to Judaism in America-by the postponement of an auction that had been scheduled for that date. The ceremonies weer held in private, the place is unknown, it may have been the loft of the mill at 20-22 South William Street where the first settlers had prayed 30 yrs earlier. by 1965, the 20 jewish families here had a synagogue and a rabbi- the cities first- Saul Brown(who had Anglicized his name from the spanish Pardo) The synagogue was on the south side of Beaver Street, between Broadway and Broad Street, and just opposite New Street, according to a map drawn by a British military chaplain,John Miller. But Miller drew his map from memory when he returned home. A later more substantial source, a real estate document dated 1700, describes a lot on the north side of Mill St,(now its South William Street) as being bounded on the ground of John Harperding. A shoemaker, mr Harperding collected 8 pounds a yr in rent:then the congregation bought a lot from himat what is now 18 S William Street for 100 Pounds, a loaf of sugar, and a pound of Bohea tea(Black, and at the time the best grade) and erected a temple that served the congregation-Shearith Israel, or Remnant ofIsrael-for the first three decades of the eighteenth century. hope you liked it! :) Date: Saturday, December 16, 1995 2:41am Forum: Theology From: Faz Msg#: 658515 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: another factoid.....:) (1 reply) now for the Catholic Church, The first Catholic Church(the oldest Roman Catholic congregation) in the city is St Peters, at Barclay and Church Streets, incorporated by act of the legislature in 1785. its first church building,48 by 81 ft, was erected in 1786 on five lots purchased from Trinity Church: the Spanish ambassador, Don Diego de Gardoqui, laid the cornerstone. The pastor, the first regularly assigned priest in the New York diocese was the Rev. Charles Whelan, O.M. Cap., who had been a chaplain in the fleet of the French admiral Francois de Grasse and had been present at the British surrender at Yorktown. He served at St Peters until Feb 12 1786, when he left to become a missionary in Kentucky. The present church structure dates from 1838, but the wrought iron fence around the church and the rectory is older than the structure itself.. It was fashioned for Trinity Church in 1790 and donated to St Peters in 1846, when Trinity erected its present home. hopefully more to follow! :) Date: Saturday, December 16, 1995 2:55am Forum: Theology From: Faz Msg#: 658516 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: one more church story...... first Episcopal church(first exclusively owned black church) The African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church, erected 1800 at Church and Leonard streets was largely organized by a former slave named Peter Williams, who had belonged to John Aymar, a Tory tobbacconist. When Aymar left this country in 1783, Williams, a patriot, wanted to remain, so he introduced the elders of John ST methodist church(cities 1st methodist Episcopal church) to buy him and let him repay the purchae price.(williams was a member of the congregation and also the church sexton). a church document record shows the transaction as stating:"1783,june 10. Paid Mr Aymar for his Negro Peter....40"Williams paid off the 40 pound price in installments in a little more than 2 years. The final payment noted as:"By cash recieved of Peter Williams, in full of all demands, on the 4th of Nov 1785...5" Williams had now become a Liberty Street businessman AND a property owner, and he and other successful blacks grew increasingly dissatisfied with what was considered paternalism and condescension on the part of the white members of the church. the A.M.E Zion church that they established inspired blacks of other denominations to emulate them. Black Baptists organized the Abyssinian Baptist Church in 1809, and Black Presbyterians the Negro Presbyterian Church in 1821. Peter Williams son Peter Jr. became the FIRST black to be ordained in the Epicopal church; he was St Philips first rector. Harlems Abyssinain Baptist Church, one of the best known of New Yorks black houses of worship, long constitued the power base of the Reverend Adam Clayton Powell Jr., who served 11 terms in Congress. Date: Monday, December 18, 1995 10:06am Forum: Theology From: Walts Msg#: 663351 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Happy Chanukah (Copy by Lythande) (1 reply) The four sides of the draydl were originally initialed N, G, H, S for the German-Yiddish words Nichts [nothing], Ganz [all], Halb [half] and Stell [put]. In time the N, G, H, S were reinterpreted as "Nes Gadol Hayah Sham," "a great miracle occurred there," referring to the Maccabean victory and to a one-day supply of oil that somehow burned for eight days.. Happy Chanukah to all ! REgards, WaltS Date: Monday, January 15, 1996 10:03am Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 667170 To: Vida *EXEMPT* Re: Orthodox Judaism (2 replies) Here is a message in its entirety as I find it in the newsgroups written by a female: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 08:20:14 soc.culture.jewish Thread 63 of 120 Lines 62 Re: Minyan No responses lisa@interport.net Lisa Aaronson at Interport In article <4cqlcn$8q7@ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> esemm@ix.netcom.com(Elliot Semmelm an ) writes: >That's not the point. The point is that one gender is priveledged to >have the "Kavod" of doing "Avodat Hashem" while the other does not. Not >that Kavod is the raison d'etre (sp) to want to contribute to the >service but it is IMHO a quality that us guys are allowed to enjoy and >that the better half cannot in the service millieu. (It's late and >that's the way my writing came out). Elliot, why, oh why do you *insist* on reading your feelings about how you would feel in our situation into this? Do you truly believe that different *must* be unequal? Can't you realize that if you're talking about Jews who accept that Torah is from God, and that there's no issue of interpretation here, that we simply aren't interested in changing these things? Thatwe just don't see anything wrong with them? You are coming from a cultural milieu where because of abuses perpetrated in the name of "separate but equal", the whole idea that there can be such a thing is rejected. But Elliot, I don't *want* to be equal to a man. I am superior to men in some ways and inferior in some ways. Just as every human being is superior to others in some ways and inferior in others. Because God didn't create a race of clones. We are different. We have different roles. You might as well complain that a non-Jew can't have an aliya. Why is*that* fair? You might as well complain that a non-Cohen can't duchen. Why is*that* fair? > She certainly can be and is. But why >not ask the opposite question. >What if the Halacha restricted men but >not women? Would you be soquick >to hold that men should not feel >"short-changed" because they can still >admire a "man" who is a learned >(pronounced lear-ned) teacher even >though none of us can read from the Torah, be a CHazan, etc... This is exactly what I mean. You are creating a problem that doesn't exist. You are defining a situation as being discriminatory. If you do this,you might just as well chuck virtually all of Judaism. One of the mostbasic concepts in Torah is "havdala". Separation. Distinction.Discrimination (in the meaning of being capable of discriminating between one thing and another). God has created a beautiful world, with vast variety. He set certainroles for certain of his creations. I've said it before, and I know it soundsflip, but truly, these distinctions are of His doing. If you don't like it,write Him a letter. Next time you're davening, ask Him why? He always answers prayers, just not always the way you might want. But what on earth is the point of going on and on about how differences that aren't ours to change are somehow "wrong"? It's like saying the law of gravity isn't fair. >Rationalizing how and why women are indeed equals in shul is very >difficult and IMHO borders on an exercise in "bi'tul z'man." >I >would respect alot more if the O would just say that this is the >Halacha PERIOD and not even engage in fanciful argumentation. This is the halacha, period. How was that? ;-Lisa Date: Thursday, January 18, 1996 8:56am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 668076 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: More on Eco kosher File: ECORENEW I am attaching an article that Arthur Waskow wrote on eco-kosher that I got from the net. You can retrieve this article from the Shamash homepage, by clicking the 'Renewal" link you can then hook up to a gopher page containing a number of Arthur's writings. Date: Monday, January 29, 1996 7:58am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 671352 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Another Jewish Justice list (Fw by Sysop) Found this posted to one of my e mail lists on the net. Unlike the previous list, this one appears to be open to all. From owner-pjml@shamash.nysernet.org Mon Jan 29 04:18 EST 1996 Received: from shamash.org (shamash.org [192.77.173.13]) by From: Nathan Ehrlich To: Discussion forum for progressive Jews Subject: Social Justice Website & Discussion Group SOCIAL JUSTICE WEBSITE AND DISCUSSION GROUP A Web site all our own! For all those (may their numbers increase) who care about tikunning the olam (healing the world), or even a segment of it -- here's where to meet your friends, your colleagues, your kindred spirits. Here, as we all get comfortable with electronic intimacy, is where to find out who's doing what, to get new ideas or test old ones, to explore the dimensions, the current state, and the possibilities of Jewish social action and social justice work. Here -- as we all pitch in -- is where to find classic documents and hot-off-the-computer musings. Here, in short, is a true home page. Check it out. And if it's not quite what you need or want, let us know. Point your Web browser to http://shamash.org/hc/jsjn and help make it happen. Plus: A discussion group for trading opinions, insights, ideas. Eventually, perhaps, real-time chat. For now, room for everyone. Unmoderated (so be moderate) discussion of both what we're already doing and what's waiting to be done. As much tachlis as possible. And, above all, connections. Doing social justice work? Feeling all alone? Join the JSJN electronic chavurah by sending the following message to listproc@shamash.org subscribe jsjn Questions? Please write to Leonard Fein, lfein@interramp.com Date: Wednesday, January 31, 1996 12:18am Forum: Theology From: Faz Msg#: 671912 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: life (2 replies) As i write this im getting ready to go to sleep. It is during this time i feel happiest, for i know that if i dont wake up the next day, all my affairs are in order. i have provided for all my family and no one shall ever want. In this past week i have bitched to myself about the homeless and all these other detritus of society. these are people i would like to look away from, and possibly sweep under the table. However all this has changed. I have a very close friend who over the years has gone through severe renal failure(he has lost one kidney already, and the other one has complications with it). Here is what irks me most. He is the most productive person society has ever created. He is almost 35 and has accomplished more than most will their entire lives. He is wealthy, and made all his money himself. He was at one time a great athlete who taught me golf and Basketball. Yet all the money in the world can do no more than minimize his suffering and sustain his life on this earth. I know he has been a fair person and will be looked on favorably when he passes away. It brings me to this conclusion, life is not only more precious than anything we can grasp or label, it is a fleeting moment. Life passes before your eyes. Everyday we should give thanks that we awoke from our slumber,can rise on our feet and go about our tasks. My friend has told me that the ability to help is within us, not through contributions but through giving of ourselves. Whether it be through blood or an organ donation, or even something simple as a smile and a kind word to someone who has nothing but could really use it. I would gladly give one of my kidneys to sustain him, but so far the results say i am unsuitable as a donor. He says its not even important if he lives, that if he as at least changed my way of thinking than he has accomplished the greatest thing in the world. So to those hear who may feel that my opinions are demeaning to them or that i take light of something they take serious..i am sorry. I was honest in my opinions before but now i see there are otherthings more important than my disdain of politics,religion,etc. Never before have i seen things in this light, and never will i forget it. If there is a creator i am sure he/she has their reasons for what they are doing, and i think it has helped me understand that the sanctity of life is something that cannot be taken for granted. I try so hard everyday to exist in this harsh world,and never took the time to look at all around me more objectively. i hope i can change whatever damage i might have done. To start again is better tha to have never started at all. Thank you for letting me vent here, i feel very happy to have all of you as my friends. :) Faz. Date: Monday, February 5, 1996 7:40pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 674387 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Congregration B'nai Jeshurun home page (1 reply) As many of you know, I have been attending Congregration B'nai Jeshurun on a semi-regular basis for the past two months or so. For the curious, BJ has a home page. The url is http://www.interport.net/~schatsky/bj. You can hear samples of the songs we sing at BJ from the home page. (Almost the entire service at BJ is sung.) Date: Monday, April 1, 1996 3:49am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 690740 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: A hagadah for people in recovery File: HAGADA.DOC I found this on the web. I am sure it is much too long for me to incorporate it in a text so I am attaching it as a document. I wanted to post it here for all on AH who have had substance abuse problems and might be in recovery programs. I personally have never had any problems with alcohol or drugs. But some people who have been near and dear to me have had such problems. So I am offering this up here to help all those who might need it. And certainly there is enough here of interest for those like myself, who deal with co-dependency issues. Date: Wednesday, April 3, 1996 4:44pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 691657 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Great Torah Commentary Deb sent me this great Torah commentary. I am passing it along here. I am sorry that because of bad timing on my part that many of those who would find this commentary interesting won't be able to read it until after Passover. Please accept my apologies. Subject: GREAT Torah reading. READ before Pesach! *********************8 I N T E R O F F I C E M E M O R A N D U M Subject: Weely Torah Reading Shabbat Hol HaMoed Pesach By Jeffrey K Candle lighting Friday, April 5th is at 6:07 p.m. "Prayer may not save us, but it makes us worth saving." These words, written by the Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel, capture the importance, power and meaning of prayer. And yet, for many of us, the notion of prayer is very difficult. The prayers are formal, in a book, in Hebrew, esoteric, old and perhaps even seemingly irrelevant at times. Yet, with all these and other difficulties, we can achieve the intimacy and potency that Heschel speaks about. In the parasha that we read for the Shabbat of Passover, (extracted from parahat Ki Tisay), one of the most dramatic biblical passages is found. After the Jewish people made the mistake of the Golden Calf, Moses pleads to God to seek forgiveness. After some discussion, negotiation and persistence, Moses and Israel are forgiven. But then, Moses pushes further. Moses asks to "see God". God responds that no man can see "the face [of god] and live", but if Moses stood behind the cleft of a rock, God will pass by, and Moses will be allowed to see Him from behind. What drama. The rabbis, in the Talmud, elaborate on the dialogue between Moses and God. They explain that God passed Moses by, and had a tallit draped over his head. Whereupon passing Moses, God instructed him on how to recite the 13 Attributes of God (Exodus 34:6 The Lord, The Lord, compassionate, gracious, slow to anger, kind and faithful,extending kindness to the thousandth generation, forgiving iniquity, transgression and sin) which, as a prayer, can be recited to obtain forgiveness for mistakes in the future. In fact, the verses in these passages are the very same ones used today which comprise the hearts of the Vidduy or Confessional service of the High Holidays. Rabbi Moshe Alshich explains that the passages/dialogue cited above teach a fundamental lesson with respect to communicating with God through the medium of prayer. He asks, why is it relevant that we are told about God's tallit draped over his head. What significance does this fact contain. The Alshich answers that the dialogue above teaches us not just what to say, but how we are to communicate. A tallit acts as a shield, blocking out visual distractions from our eyesight. When we are able to concentrate and focus on the words we say here, God - in turn - will focus in His response to our prayers. Although many of us do not wear a tallit during prayer, and even those who do may not drape them overhead, the message remains the same: key elements to prayer are sincerity, concentration and focus. Perhaps, then, it comes as no surprise the Maimonides, in his writing on prayer, explains that prayer in any language is considered bonified; and when they are recited with sincerity, are heard above. As important as what, is how. Passover is upon us. A tremendous amount of preparation has and continues to take place in our kitchen and dining areas. Yet, the parasha read on Shabbat may serve to remind us that in as much as the special dietary requirements are important, so are the opportunities for prayer and communication with the God who took us out of Egypt. What is important, in this regard, is the realization that sincerity in prayer, regardless of the words or language, is what will enable us to feel closer and more comfortable with communicating with God. "Prayer is said in many languages, but the tears are all the same." Abraham Joshua Heschel Date: Sunday, July 21, 1996 8:19am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 714133 To: Quack *EXEMPT* Re: It's a Mitzvah! (Reply to #714120, Reply to #714024, Copy by Lythande, R*) (3 replies) Here is my digest of what the Bradley Shavit Artson book has to mitzvah of ma'akhil r'evim (feeding the hungry): As long as we have the power to alleviate human suffering, we have an obligation to do so. Feeding the hungy is one of the simpliest and most important ways of coming to the aid of a fellow human being and is a concrete expression of Jewish love of life. In our modern society the have relegated the obligation to feed the hungry to insitutions such as soup kitchens and homeless shelters. The reason that this has happened is because of how transcient our society has become. Few of us live in the place of our birth, and ofter parents retire to warm places, often far from their children and grandparents. The price that we pay for this mobility is that there is a hestiancy to make new friendships. While we can't stop from moving from place to place, we can trun outselves into an "extended family" along the path--little encalves of caring and involement that inite weary and desensitized people to join us, turst us and share with us. By providing for the hungry and sheltering the homeless, we can offer tangible relief from suffering. This mitzvah alllows us to sustain other people and to derive sustenance from the encounter. Through deed, it is an affirmation of G-d's love and of our potential to emulate that love. It is hard to imagine the difficulty and danger faced by someone who doesn't have a regular home, who sleeps in shelters, on park benches or on sidewalks. Imagine a hunger so constant that it hurts. Imagine that the rest of humanity sees you not as a real person but as a modern leper, the secular equivalent of an untouchable. The tradition of hosptality and feeding the hungry goes back to the earliet roots of Jewish tradition. When three guests arrive at Abraham and Sarah's doorstep, they sprang into action as model hosts. Abraham selected a sheep from his flock, which Sarah prepared, along with bread and other delicacies, as a meal for the visitors. Hospitality that leaves a segement of humanity out on the streets is not only less than adequate, it is also a denial of the presence of God's image in all poeple. As long as our goverments don't find a means to house and clothe and feed everyone, then our claim to be civilized rings hollow. Ultimately, the international problem of housing humanity will require serious political attention. But until then (and even afterward, most likely), our personal attention to the individuals who don't have anywhere to live will remain essential: The Torah teaches that there will always be needy people. (Deuternomy 15:11) Care for the homeless is a recognition that we are all one another's guests. Everyone one of us, representing God's love to one another, must play the role of host on God's behalf. The following suggestions are meant to convey that love: 1. Find out which local organizations work with the hungry and the homeless. 2. Focus on concrete ways to help the homeless. For example, help dispense food in a soup kitchen. 3. Volunteer your time at a homeless shelter. 4. Teach job skills to homeless people who are seeking employment. Even better, of course, would be to find a job for a homeless person. 5. Donate old or unused clothing to a homeless shelter. 6. Volunteer at a soup kitchen or a homeless shetler on Christmas or Easter or other non-Jewish holiday. 7. If possible, make financial contributions to organizations that help the homeless and hungy in your community. 8. Attack homeless on a global level--Support organizations dedicated to fighting hunger and poverty. Two organizations--Mazon and American Jewish World Service are wothy of special attention because they raise money within the Jewish community to feed and sutaine the hungry and homeless of all peoples. By channeling your support to these organizations, you will ensure that the recipients know that the Jewish community cares about all people, not just other Jews. Date: Tuesday, August 13, 1996 7:13am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 716504 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: This makes my blood boil (Copy by Lythande) -------------< COMMENTS BY Lythande >-------------- From: Editor To: All ----------< END OF COMMENTS BY Lythande >---------- I received the following message in my internet e mail. It was forwarded to me by Deb from Editor with the request that I post it here. Needless to say, this thing makes me gag. Especially since as a matter of principal I will not pray in a congregration UNLESS it is equalitarian. This whole thing makes me feel totally invalidated as a Jew and a female!!!! Forwarded message appears below. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Its foolish writing this, since you won't see it until AFTER I get back, but BOY am I pissed off. I thought this would read better while the emotions were still raw. Feel free to move this over to someplace on AH if you wish. Tonight (Friday night) we were going to hold a service at the wall. FHJC is an egalitarian shul, so the rabbi donned his talit, and we all gathered behind him. We wanted to avoid problems with the black hats, so were way back in the courtyard, not within 100 yards of the wall. Almost instantly, and I mean instantly, a cop shows up, very polite, and starts talking in Hebrew. After a few minutes, the rabbi turns around, and obviously biting his tongue says that we will not be permitted to daven unless the men and women are separated. Don't need a mechista or anything, but we had to separate by at least a short distance. He was very polite, and he explained that he had no objection to it, but if we davened as a group, it was almost guarenteed to start an incident. The rabbi explained that the cop was really not the bad guy, and, in fact, he was trying to protect us, The rabbi wanted us to experience Friday evening services at the wall, even if it could be less than perfect. Let me tell you Deb, some of us were PRETTY pissed. The funny thing is that the men were alot angrier than the women. It was only the rabbi's urging that kept it cool. So, we went ahead and davened WITH POLICE PROTECTION! Isn't that a bitch! There were about 35 of us, and we needed police protection to daven at the wall!!!! It was quite an experience, and the rabbi was right about not missing it, but SHIT! Some of the comments afterwards were: (Me) Its a disgrace that so many boys (literally, some were only 10) died to secure this area and now Jews had to be protected from other Jews. The lawyer who organized the trip said that in the entire two weeks in Israel, including being right at the Syrian border, and being right at the Lebanese border, AND being in Palestinian controlled Jericho, he never felt any physical danger.... until he tried to daven at the wall. He said that he would feel safer getting off the bus in Jericho than davening at the wall again. The rabbi commented that the police were just doing their job, which was to avoid incidents and protect us, but it was a shame that they were doing it by catering to the people most likely to create the incident. No moral judgements, just practicality. It particularly burned him that these were people who disapproved of the country and refused to serve in the army. Anyway... I'm pissed. About an 8.5 on my personal pissoffedness scale. Date: Wednesday, September 25, 1996 8:37am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 719470 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: The online "Al-chet" (1 reply) This was posted on gayJews and I thought it was cute. Hope no one is offended. For those who might not know this is patterned on the "Al-chet" which is a traditional prayer which Jews say on Yom Kippur. It is a confessional prayer in which the entire congregration admits its sin. Hi Gang, As the season of repentance has only just completed another stage, thought you might enjoy this recent message from a friend, who found it on the Jewish Geneology group. For all I've offended, I'm sorry. Hope you find this as a propos as I did. Cheers, Joanne ---------- Forwarded message ---------- "Internet Users` Addendum to the 'al-chet'", posted to JewishGen (a Jewish genealogy newsgroup to which I suscribe). The original is copyrighted and archived at http://www.jtsa.edu/lists/to-ch/al_chet.html. For the sin which we have committed by responding too often, And for the sin which we have committed by not posting at all when we have something valuable to say. For the sin which we have committed by misinterpreting others' words, And for the sin which we have committed by not expressing ourselves clearly. For the sin which we have committed by being sarcastic to other list members, And for the sin which we have committed by not being tolerant of their positions. For the sin which we have committed by not translating Hebrew words, And for the sin which we have committed by assuming others know as much as we do. For the sin which we have committed by posting announcements directly, And for the sin which we have committed by posting subscription commands to the list. For the sin which we have committed by forwarding messages without introduction, And for the sin which we have committed by cross-posting our own messages to many other lists. For the sin which we have committed by not using an appropriate subject line, And for the sin which we have committed by having a long signature file. For the sin which we have committed by quoting others' posts in their entirety, And for the sin which we have committed by not providing context to our replies. For all of these, Forgiving One, Forgive us, Pardon us, Grant us atonement. c1995 Mark Frydenberg mfrydenberg@bentley.edu G'mar chatima tova May you be sealed for good Date: Tuesday, August 13, 1996 7:13am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 722572 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: This makes my blood boil (Copy by Lythande) I received the following message in my internet e mail. It was forwarded to me by Deb from Editor with the request that I post it here. Needless to say, this thing makes me gag. Especially since as a matter of principal I will not pray in a congregration UNLESS it is equalitarian. This whole thing makes me feel totally invalidated as a Jew and a female!!!! Forwarded message appears below. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Its foolish writing this, since you won't see it until AFTER I get back, but BOY am I pissed off. I thought this would read better while the emotions were still raw. Feel free to move this over to someplace on AH if you wish. Tonight (Friday night) we were going to hold a service at the wall. FHJC is an egalitarian shul, so the rabbi donned his talit, and we all gathered behind him. We wanted to avoid problems with the black hats, so were way back in the courtyard, not within 100 yards of the wall. Almost instantly, and I mean instantly, a cop shows up, very polite, and starts talking in Hebrew. After a few minutes, the rabbi turns around, and obviously biting his tongue says that we will not be permitted to daven unless the men and women are separated. Don't need a mechista or anything, but we had to separate by at least a short distance. He was very polite, and he explained that he had no objection to it, but if we davened as a group, it was almost guarenteed to start an incident. The rabbi explained that the cop was really not the bad guy, and, in fact, he was trying to protect us, The rabbi wanted us to experience Friday evening services at the wall, even if it could be less than perfect. Let me tell you Deb, some of us were PRETTY pissed. The funny thing is that the men were alot angrier than the women. It was only the rabbi's urging that kept it cool. So, we went ahead and davened WITH POLICE PROTECTION! Isn't that a bitch! There were about 35 of us, and we needed police protection to daven at the wall!!!! It was quite an experience, and the rabbi was right about not missing it, but SHIT! Some of the comments afterwards were: (Me) Its a disgrace that so many boys (literally, some were only 10) died to secure this area and now Jews had to be protected from other Jews. The lawyer who organized the trip said that in the entire two weeks in Israel, including being right at the Syrian border, and being right at the Lebanese border, AND being in Palestinian controlled Jericho, he never felt any physical danger.... until he tried to daven at the wall. He said that he would feel safer getting off the bus in Jericho than davening at the wall again. The rabbi commented that the police were just doing their job, which was to avoid incidents and protect us, but it was a shame that they were doing it by catering to the people most likely to create the incident. No moral judgements, just practicality. It particularly burned him that these were people who disapproved of the country and refused to serve in the army. Anyway... I'm pissed. About an 8.5 on my personal pissoffedness scale. Date: Tuesday, November 12, 1996 6:37pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 722790 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Update on Women at the Wall (1 reply) For all those that are interested, the following report with respect to the Women at the Wall group appeared in my e mail box. The following is a report from Betsy Cohen-Kallus, a member of Women of the Wall in Jerusalem. I am awaiting another report from Chaia Beckerman which I will also forward around. As you can see, things are heating up again. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Rabbi Gail Labovitz ~ ...The most pressing questions ~ ~ The Jewish Theological Seminary ~ are naive ones. ~ ~ galabovitz@jtsa.edu ~ - Wislawa Szymborska ~ ~ ~ ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dear Friends, This morning, Women of the Wall gathered as it does every month, to celebrate Rosh Hodesh. We anticipated in advance that we might encounter hostility or violence based on the fact that the Israeli Supreme Court had recently instructed the Government of Israel to find a compromise solution which would enable us to pray at the Wall. Since the Supreme Court announced this, both the ultra-orthodox parties and representatives of the ultra orthodox community in general have made threats against us in public settings and in the press. We arrived at the Kotel this morning with about eighty women. There were approximately twenty egulars who pray with us. In addition, there were a number of visitors from abroad including a New Israel Fund mission, as well as students from Pardes, The Conservative Seminary, Hebrew Union College and a group of post-high school Reform youth from South Africa and Australia. We knew in advance that a television film crew from a local broadcast called omens View would be filming us for a special televsion documentary that they are doing. Chaia Beckerman briefed the women prior to going down to the Kotel in how to respond to potential violence or provocation. Each woman was instructed to find a uddy and stay with her. Everyone was told to follow the instructions of the leaders. As the prayer group leader, I reminded everyone that we were there to pray, not have a demonstration. I began leading the morning service and had barely gotten started when we heard shouts and screams coming from the mens side. There were approximately twenty to thirty men standing on chairs leaning over the mechitza, shouting at us. Raus, get out of here, etc. One of them threw a small wooden tender used by Cohenim during the prayer for peace, at us. Another threw a chair. I learned from my husband who was wrapped in his tefillin and tallit standing amidst these men, that when he and a friend tried to calm the men down, they called him a oy, a nazi, a reform Jew and any number of other epithets. One of them told my husbands friend that he did not deserve to wear tallit and tefillin. We saw a number of the ultra orthodox wome trying to quiet the men. The screaming continued and two police officers- a man and a woman - came up to us and told us we that should leave immediately. When we asked why and said that they should get rid of the people attacking us, not us- we were told that the police did not have the capacity to protect us from them and therefore we should move away. We were pushed out of the Kotel area to an area about one hundred feet away, at the far end of the Kotel Plaza. We regrouped there, surrounded by a phalanx of police and journalists. Once again, we began to daven and sing out loud at the top of our voices. Several ultra orthodox men tried to interrupt us but the police pushed them away. Rachel Jaskow led us in singing Hallel in full voice which concluded with singing and dancing to one of Reb Shlomo Carlebachs niggunim. A small but not insignificant victory for us! For the Torah reading we moved to our usual place in the Archeological Garden in the Jewish Quarter. Accompanied by several male supporters, 6-8 policemen and several journalists we had a joyful and uninterrupted Torah reading. A few thoughts... As the leader of the prayer service my goal was to lead a joyful Rosh Hodesh Kislev davening. I have led davening in the Kotel on numerous occasions and this was only the second time that I have experienced anger or violence against us. I tried to encourage all the women to stay focused on the davening and not be distracted by the shouts or anger. When we regrouped at the back of the Kotel, it was much harder to begin again. I felt saddened and was close to tears because of the response we had received. It felt like a terrible defilement of the our davening and our Rosh Hodesh celebration. I dont regret that we did this. In future months, we must have more physical support and security. We must not allow ourselves to be pushed out of the Kotel when we are fully within our rights to pray there. We did not break the Supreme Court laws- we did not wear tallit or tefillin or read the Torah there. We were not singing out loud. All of which are currently illegal actions for women praying at the Kotel Please support Women of the Wall by sending donations, praying with us in Jerusalem or joining us with your intentions and thoughts each month. Chodesh Tov Betsy Cohen Kallus Date: Wednesday, November 13, 1996 11:58am Forum: Theology From: Editor Msg#: 722838 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Homosexuality (1 reply) This (slightly edited) message is from an exchange on a listserver for the Forest Hills Jewish Center. It is the response of the Rabbi to a question posed by a college student. I thought some of you would find it interesting. -------------------------------- ...., the questions that you raise about homosexuality are serious and vexing. I don't like the characterization of people as "bad Jews" and "good Jews," regardless of their actions or behaviors. God is better left to decide those questions. Regardless of how one feels about gay lifestyles personally, the fact is that the Torah explicitly forbids male homosexual behavior (the rabis extended it to females as well). That presents a Jew who takes Torah seriously with a problem: namely, how do I justify my reverence for my traditions's sacred text with my own sense of right and wrong, rooted in the culture and world in which I live? As Conservative Jews, we endorse an approach to sacred text which makes precisely the question I just asked, askable. Our sacred texts were written in specific historical concepts, representing the values of those times, and we can, even must, struggle to understand whether or not the laws therein represent the test of time, or do not. Some clearly do; no one would quibble with the timelessness of Shabbat, say, or honoring one's parents. Some clearly don't, like the laws of the Sotah, the woman suspected of adultery who was subjected to awful ordeals to defend her innocence. Others- well, to some they do, and to others they don't. Obviously, to you it is perfectly clear that the Torah's antipathy for a gay lifestyle is immoral and antiquated. There are others, however- MANY others- who feel that a homosexual lifestyle cannot be reconciled with Judaism and Jewish values. There are extremely strong feelings on both sides of the issue. To respond to your questions- Under no circumstances is it true that a gay person would be denied access or entrance to a shul, or membership, or honors, or burial in a Jewish cemetery. Even those who consider gays to be "sinners" are hardly without sin. As a famous Jew once said, only those without sin should cast the first stones. Shabbat obervance, kashrut, adultery, et.al....... if we want to start checking the tzitzis of each and every Jew, then we're all in trouble. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Monday, January 13, 1997 7:48pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 726334 To: Tempest *EXEMPT* Re: Israel (Reply to #726323, Fw by Lythande, Reply to #724476, Rep*) TE>-------------< COMMENTS BY Lythande >-------------- TE>TO: Vida TE>----------< END OF COMMENTS BY Lythande >---------- TE>VI>In this country, all of the studies I have read say that only 10-15% of TE>VI>American Jews are Orthodox. I believe that approximately 60% are TE>VI>Reform, 2% Reconstructionist and the rest Conservative. So with all TE>VI>these numbers, how can there be any denial of the validity of TE>VI>nonOrthodox Judaism. TE>Out of curiosity, can you tell me what are the differences between those TE>four types of Judaism? That's a toughie! Let me start by saying that all the opionions expressed herein are solely my own. And they are based on MY understanding of the various movements. The best way I can explain it is that it has to mainly to do with the degree of strictness with which the various branches adhere to Jewish law or halkha. Orthodox is the strictest branch in terms of adhering to halkha. Kkid will correct me if I am wrong, but the Orthodox branch of Judaism believes that halkha was ORALLY given to Moses at Mount Sinai at the same time that G-d gave Moses the Ten Commandments. This is despite the fact that the Oral Law, as it is called, was not first written down until 200 CE (Common Era or 200 years after the birth of Jesus. For obvious reasons, a Jewish person avoids the use of the abbrevations AD or BC.) and that it continued to be developed until the 1500's. The significance of this belief is that this means to Orthodox Jews that halakha is immutable. So an Orthodox Jew would feel COMMANDED to keep kosher. And would, likewise, feel COMMANDED to observe the Sabbath--which involves a whole set of dos and don'ts--mostly don'ts. As a practical matter, if you walked into an Orthodox synagogue you would know it right away because almost ALL Orthodox synagogues physically seperate women and men. Women either sit in the women's section in the balcony or there is a mekhitza ( a wall of various sizes) physically seperating the women's section from the men's section. Also the Orthodox movement does not ordain women rabbis or cantors. The Reform Movement first started in Germany in 1800's. As a general rule, it holds that halkha is a guidepost, but not a commandment or a requirement. So most Reform Jews don't keep kosher. Likewise, observance of the rules regarding Sabbath tend to be very lax. The Reform Movement very conciously tried to model itself on Protestant Christianity in its prayer services. So it added the use of the organ (Most Orthodox Jews would say that the use of any musical instrument on Sabbath violates the rules. And the organ in particular would be viewed as an goyish instrument.) Additionally, the Reform Movement very quickly started to add the vernacular (rather than Hebrew) into the prayer service. Indeed, in the 1960's the Reform religious service in the US was almost exclusively in English. Interestingly enough, in the 1980's and 1990's the Reform movement has started to swing more tradition so that in current Reform services it is about 50% in Hebrew, 50% in English, but it can vary depending upon the congregation. The Reform Movement, unless I am grossly mistaken was the first movement to ordain women rabbis and cantors. Indeed, I have been told that currently in the Reform seminaries the student body is 50% female or over. The Conservative movement started in the US in early 1900's. It is generally considered to be a "middle ground" between Orthodox and Conservative. As a general rule, it holds that halkha is law but that it can be changed FOR GOOD REASON. Basically the assumption is NOT to change Jewish legal precedent, unless it is for GOOD cause. For example, the Conservative movement does not seperate the sexes physically. And it currently ordains women rabbis and cantors. It does teach that a Jew is commanded to keep kosher and is commanded to keep Sabbath. It is a more liberal in interpreting the rules of Sabbath than the Orthodox movement, however. It would be very hard for you to distinguish between a Reform and Conservative religious service. It really varies from congregration to congregration. As a general rule, Conservative religious services tend to be mostly (or exclusively) in Hebrew. I personally attend a Conservative congration where the prayer service is probably 90 - 95% in Hebrew. Finally, there is Reconstructionism. Reconstructionism is small. Probably only 3% of American Jews are Reconstructionists. However, it is very influential especially among contemporary nonOrthodox Jews. Its influence can be shown by the fact that the very first bat mitzvah ceremony (equivalent to the bar mitzvah ceremony but for girls) was performed in the Reconstructionist movement, in 1920!!!! This is simply incredible when you consider that in 1990's America almost all Reform and Conservative congregrations perform bat mitzvah ceremonies on girls when they reach the age of 12. The main feature of Reconstructionism is that it rejects the concept that the Jews are G-d's chosen people. It also rejects the notion of the Messiah, or one individual who will bring redemption. Rather, Reconstructionism teaches that redemption will come from GROUP effort which will bring about the Messianic age. Reconstructionism tends to have the greatest amount of lattitude in ritual observance in its prayer services. It tends to be very experimental in its approach. For example, Hebrew is a gendered language and traditionally G-d in Hebrew prayer is masculine. The use of feminine prayer language in referring to G-d developed largely through people trained in the Reconstructionist seminaries, and is spreading to some extent in the Reform movement. Date: Saturday, February 1, 1997 11:02am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 729293 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: The different branches This appeared on one of my Jewish e mail lists. It is meant to be a humorous explanation of the differences between the various branches of Judaism. > > THE JEWISH MACARENAS > (Or, You Lead, But I Won't Follow) > > DISCLAIMER: This is a work of fiction. All references >to institutions, > living or dead, is purely coincidental. > > The Reconstructionist Macarena: > The dance has been completely re-choreographed, >but they still > use the music so we know it's the Macarena. > > The Reform Macarena: > The traditional dance is on the books, but each >row of dancers is > free to interpret the music and determine what steps >will be danced > and how (Modern Reform has opted to retain the >wiggle, but not the > Classical Reform). Of course, they all start dancing >at least four > bars into the song, and usually end the dance early. > > The Conservative Macarena: > All aspects of the traditional Macarena are >retained, but there > is mixed dancing. Most women cover their heads with their hands, but > some place the hands at the back of the head as a token gesture, just > to show they know the head is supposed to be covered during that step. > In some progressive, egalitarian Conservative circles, the women lead. > > The Orthodox Macarena: > All dancers pay strict attention to all details and never miss a > step, but tend to rush through the dance using their own rhythms. They > will not cross themselves by placing their hands across their > stomachs, and so have ruled a heter to replace that step with a few > bars of shuckling. As a "fence" to prevent any step from being missed, > the song is played twice and the dance repeated. Rules of mechitazah > are strictly maintained, so the wiggle has lost some of its "umph". > Date: Wednesday, April 9, 1997 6:39pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 733149 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: The Orange on the Seder Plate (2 replies) Perhaps some of you are familiar with the fact that many of us Jewish "liberals" having been adding an orange to the traditional Seder plate. Here is an explanation of why, again from my teacher Arthur Waskow. [Add an orange to the traditional items on the Seder plate. Then invite someone to ask "one more question," "Why Is There an Orange on the Seder Plate?" and tell the following story in response:] {One Voice:] In our own day as in the ancient days of our tradition, an event becomes a story, a story is woven with new legends, and the legends lead the path into new teachings. So it is with the orange on the Seder plate. To begin with, a woman in the far-flung American Diaspora asked a woman teacher of the old tradition: "What is the place of lesbians in Jewish life?" She answered, "Lesbians have as much place in Jewish tradition as a piece of bread has upon the Seder table!" And in response, some lesbian Jews expressed their own liberation from the Narrow Place of their oppression (Mitzraiim) by placing some bread upon their Seder plate. [Another Voice] But some among our people were not willing to accept this choice that said: Bow down to the tradition, or break one of its most ancient rules. Instead, they sought to dance and wrestle with the ancient teachings. They said: "Bread on the Seder plate would shatter the tradition. The presence and the teaching of gay men and lesbians in Jewish life transforms the tradition, but does not shatter it. So let us place on the Seder plate not bread but an orange -- transformation, not transgression." So ever since that day, some of us place an orange on the Seder plate, for it belongs there as a symbol of growth and transformation. [Another Voice:] As the story grew and its telling was retold, new legends and teachings grew from its trunk and branches. Some found that the threat to exclude and diminish goes beyond gay men and lesbians and also faces all women in Judaism: According to their telling, one rabbi had said, "A woman belongs on the bimah [pulpit] as much as an orange on the Seder plate!" So in many homes, the orange on the Seder plate became a symbol of the place of women in the future of Judaism. [Another Voice:] Why an orange? Because the orange carries within itself the seeds of its own rebirth. When we went forth from the Narrow Place, Mitzraiim, the Jewish people passed through a narrow birth canal and broke the waters of the Red Sea, and so was born into the world. The wisdom of women who were midwives made that birth possible. In our generation, the Jewish people is again giving birth to itself. For the first time, women are sharing equally with men in bringing this new birth to its fruition. For the first time, gay men and lesbians have themselves come out of the Narrow Closed-in closet to share in shaping the future of Judaism. So we must for the first time bring to the Seder plate a fruit that carries, within, the seeds of its own rebirth. [Another Voice:] Still others add: Every symbol on the Seder plate speaks to us of the Divine Unfoldings, the S'phirot. The tenth of the Unfoldings, the S'phirah of Malkhut or Majesty, is the gathering-together of all the Divine energies, and that S'phirah is symbolized in the human body by the Womb, in which each human life is gathered into wholeness on the verge of entering the world. Until now, none of the objects on the Seder plate has symbolized Malkhut: the plate itself has been Malkhut. Malkhut has been the unseen Ground of Being, not the figure on the Ground -- as women and gay people have been the unseen background upon which all visible history has happened. But tonight we make visible the Gathering-place, Malkhut; tonight we place upon the field of being the orange that is a visible echo of the Seder plate. [Voices Together:] Tonight all the excluded of our people -- lesbians and gay men, women and converts, take their full and rightful place in shaping the future of our people. Tonight, rebirth and Malkhut emerge from invisibility to take their place before the eyes of our reborn people. Tonight we place the Orange on the Seder plate. __________ This text originated with ALEPH: Alliance for Jewish Renewal, 7318 Germantown Ave., Philadelphia, PA 19119. Phone: 215/247-9700. E-mail: alephajr@aol.com Date: Friday, April 11, 1997 7:42am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 733220 To: Synne *EXEMPT* Re: Additional Passover blessings (Reply to #733209, Reply to #733178, Reply to #733156, R*) (3 replies) SY>Sure, any suggestions are welcome! SY>Thanks! Ok, here's a partial list of Jewish feminist books and my brief comments re: same. I will put a star next to the books that are the strongest recommendations: * "Standing Again At Sinai: Judasim from a Feminist Perspective" by Judith Plaskow. --This is one of the earliest Jewish feminist books and is probably a good place to start. "On Being A Jewish Feminist" edited by Susannah Heschel--a collection of essays written by Jewish feminists "Deborah, Golda and Me: Being Female and Jewish in America" by Letty Cottin Pogrebin--a more personal account of coming to terms with Judaism and feminist values "Jewish Women/Jewish Men: The Legacy of Patriachy in Jewish Life" by Aviva Cantor--a very sweeping view of Jewish history which seeks to explain why traditional Judaism excluded women from active participation in synagogue life. To be treated with a certain amount of caution, since it makes conclusions which I feel are overgeneralized or false. * "He/She/It" by Marge Piercy--fiction. Speculative fiction by one of the leading feminist authors, with a strong Jewish theme. She's one of my favorite authors. I obtained my handle from the title character of one of her novels. A Weave of Women" by E.M. Broner--fiction. This book also has a strong Jewish theme. * "The Five Books of Miriam: A Woman's Commentary on the Torah" by Ellen Frankel. This book is divided into chapters which correspond to the traditional parashahs or Torah portions. Each chapter contains a brief synopsis of what is contained in the Torah, plus commentary. "In the Image of God: A Feminist Commentary on the Torah" by Judith Antonelli. This book is also divided into chapters which correspond to the parashahs. The author is an Orthodox Jewish feminist. Also to be treated with caution. I feel she is far too much of an apologist for traditional Judaism. * "The World of Our Mothers: The Lives of Jewish Immigrant Women" by Syndney Stahl Weinberg. History. This book focuses on the lives of women who immigrated from the shetls or small towns of Eastern Europe to the US in the late 19th and early 20th century. Essential reading. * "Lifecycles, vol 1" edited by Rabbis Debra Orenstein--ritual--This book contains new rituals for just about every major life cycle event, including coming out, divorce, conversion and aging. This books is somewhat large and clumsy to handle. ( Note I am talking about volume 1. This is to be a three volume set and volume 2 just recently was published. I haven't purchased volume 2 YET so I can't comment on that volume.) "The Book of Blessings" by Marcia Falk--prayer--This is a Jewish feminist siddur or prayer book. It rewrites the traditional Jewish prayers in a more feminist/equalitarian terms. This book is VERY large and EXTREMELY clumsy to handle. * "Kol Haneshamah:Shabbat Vehagim"--prayer--This is the official siddur of the Reconstructionist movement so it is not a Jewish feminist book per se. However, this book was definitely a major influence on Marcia Falk and on the "Life Cycles" book I previously mentioned. (Note I am not a Reconstructionist and have never actually attended a service in a Recontructionist synagogue.) This is a beautifully put together sidur. It is also the correct size to be used as a prayer book. Hope this is helpful! :) Date: Tuesday, April 15, 1997 10:27pm Forum: Theology From: Synne Msg#: 733518 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Religion vs Culture (2 replies) I consider myself to be Jewish "culturally"... but I don't consider myself to be Jewish as far as religion goes... This always worked for me... but I've been thinking about what that means a little more critically lately... I've been brought up celebrating Jewish holidays, gone to Hebrew school, all that... but I've been trying to figure out where the culture ends and the religion begins... Obviously for ME, I pick and choose which parts of each feel right to me... but on a broader level, I've been trying to discriminate between the two. The religion plays a large role in the holidays... and it seems kind of difficult to separate them. I'd love to hear some thoughts on this... Date: Wednesday, June 4, 1997 7:11am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 736751 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Shavout (1 reply) Posted at the request of Deb: ~~~~~~~~~ The holiday of Shavuot is approaching. This year it begins at sunset on Tuesday, June 10th and concludes at sundown on Thursday, June 12th. The holiday of Shavuot often gets short shrift in the consciousness of American Jews. It comes and goes each year with many people remaining unclear of its meaning and history. The Holiday's Name: The name Shavuot means weeks. This name reflects the seven week period between Passover and Shavuot. This period of time is called the Omer which refers to a measure of the barley harvest that took place in Israel during this time. Biblical roots: In the Bible, Shavuot is an agricultural holiday during which the people celebrated the spring harvest of barley and wheat. They waved the sheaves in celebration and to gave thanks for a productive harvest. This agricultural focus gave rise to another name for the holiday, HAG HAKATZIR - The Harvest Holiday. Today in kibbutzim throughout Israel, this aspect of the holiday is highlighted and celebrations center around the agricultural life of the kibbutz. First Fruits: During the time when the First and Second Temples stood, people would make an annual pilgrimage to Jerusalem to offer the best of their fruits (produce) as offerings of gratitude. This practice was called giving BIKKURIM (the first fruits) and gave rise to yet a third name for this holiday - HAG HABIKKURIM, the Holiday of First Fruits. Shavuot is one of the three times during the year that people used to make a pilgrimage to Jerusalem. The other two times were during Succot and Passover. Giving of the Torah: Later, after the destruction of the 2nd Temple, rabbis recast Shavuot as the time when we stood at Mt. Sinai and received the Torah. This is called ZEMAN MATAN TORATEINU - The Time of the Giving of the Torah. Today, this aspect of the holiday is most noted and celebrated. The celebration (observance) of Shavuot largely takes place in the synagogue. Here are some current ways Shavuot is observed: 1) Tikkun Le'il Shavuot: Beginning with the influence of the Kabbalists, people stayed up all night studying Torah. At times this study covers the entire Hebrew Bible beginning with the Torah and continuing through with Prophets and Writings. At other times, topics vary depending on participants. Check local synagogues for their Tikkun schedule. Some synagogues do an all-night Tikkun while others offer a mini-Tikkun which lasts until midnight. 2) Dairy Foods: One tradition is to eat dairy foods which often takes the form of cheesecake and blintzes. This custom arises from the hope that we will live in Eretz Zavat Halav U'dvash - A Land of Milk and Honey. 3) Confirmation: Some synagogues have ongoing educational programs for their teen-agers which conclude in a Confirmation service. These services are often scheduled to coincide with Shavuot. Since Shavuot is the time we reaffirm our commitment to Torah, this holiday lends itself to Confirmation in which students reaffirm their ongoing commitment to Jewish life and education. 4) Some synagogues decorate their sanctuaries with flowers thus marking the Spring harvest. Additionally, many synagogues divide everyone attending services into groups to include everyone in an aliyah (saying the blessing on the Torah). In this way, everyone re-experiences their self as if they too stood at Mt. Sinai when the Torah was given. Some Additional Thoughts: For Families with young children, Shavuot is a great time to review what everyone has learned during the past year about Judaism whether in Hebrew school, day school or through other educational programs. One suggestion is to create a "Family Torah" where each family member creates a "leaf" to contribute to the scroll [This can be done by giving each person a piece of butcher paper]. All the 'leaves' can then glued together and rolled into a "Family Torah" scroll. Be sure to include pictures of your family's holiday celebrations. Each year on Shavuot, your family can bring out this "Family Torah," review past years, and add to it. This can become a great record of your family's Jewish identity. Read a book: Shavuot is an opportune time to read a book with Jewish content. Here are some wide-ranging suggestions: 1) "God Was Not in the Fire." By Daniel Gordis A good overview of how we can make Judaism relevant and spiritual' for our lives. Rabbi Daniel Gordis is the Dean of the rabbinical school at the University of Judaism in Los Angeles. 2) "The Color of Water." By James McBride A moving autobiography of journalist James McBride who chronicles the story of his white Jewish mother raising her African-American children in Harlem in the late 50s. 3) "Lifecycles 2: Jewish Women on Biblical Themes in Contemporary Life." Edited by Rabbis Debra Orenstein and Jane Litman The second in a three-volume series. This book has wonderful essays by women scholars and communal leaders who struggle to make the biblical text speak to us. 4) "Teaching Children About God: A Modern Approach." By David Wolpe What better time to read about how to respond you your children inevitable questions about God. Rabbi Wolpe writes clearly and presents a useful model for all parents. 5) "The Spirituality of Imperfection." (Oops, don't the authors' names). A book for individuals of all faiths. This book brings inspiration through short teaching stories from all traditions. It premise is that only when we realize our vulnerabilities can we become close to God. Date: Friday, June 20, 1997 8:52am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 737726 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #737714, Reply to #737687, Reply to #737644, R*) VI>SF>VI>SF>Too bad about the bad timing. VI>SF>VI>Yup, sorry about that! VI>SF>We appear to have reached an accomadation, which is great. VI>It looks that way. :) GOOD! Date: Friday, June 20, 1997 8:55am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 737727 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #737715, Reply to #737688, Reply to #737645, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>(Previous exchanges ommitted) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>The point is that you have failed to convince me that Orth VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>is NOT homophobic! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>BTW--When discussing BJ's Gay Pride dinner with Deb I just VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>"Jewishness" of this event BECAUSE traditional, Orthodox J VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>homophobic. In other words, I think that as Jews we have VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>BECAUSE of the homophobic nature of our tradition. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I include "Liberal" and nonO congregrations as requiring t VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>because the whole "Liberal", nonO movement is so young--re VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>years old when it comes to "gender" issues, ( In this con VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>"gender issues", I mean gay rights and women's rights) Ad VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>the work that has been done on "gender issues", even in th VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>liberal congregrations, is far from complete! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Not I nor anyone else I know think that organized orthodox Ju VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>not homophobic, however, we can try to educate. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>You can only educate if there is a willingness to be educated. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>afraid, that as a general rule, Orthodox Judaism is not willing VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>on 'gender issues'. VI>SF>VI>SF>That is an inacurate overgeneralization. VI>SF>VI>Unfortunately I think it is an accurate statement. VI>SF>We appear to differ, which may be due to our different perspectives. VI>Different prespectives???? May, may that's understatement! You seem VI>to be willing to pray in an atomsophere where you are not recognized for VI>what you are. I refuse to do so. The key difference remains is that this is how I was raised and where, at least a part of me is most comfortable and I can be together with what little family I have. What the future holds I do not know. Date: Friday, June 20, 1997 4:47pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 737749 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #737583, Reply to #737455, Reply to #737197, R*) (2 replies) SF>KK>SF>VI>SF>VI>If he's a member of the Frumgays list Steve than he's gay! I SF>KK>SF>VI>SF>VI>a nonqueer Orthodox Jew who takes the position that Levictus SF>KK>SF>VI>SF>VI>prohibit gay male sex. SF>KK>SF>VI>SF>He was quoted on frumgays, not on frumgays. SF>KK>SF>VI>Same difference. Call me a cynic but it is completely possible tha SF>KK>SF>VI>is being quoted out of context OR that incompletely. SF>KK>SF>Feel free to contact him. SF>KK>How about finding out his name for us? I would not want to find out that SF>KK>the current Chaplain is not the one who was being quoted on the list. SF>Then check with the Tzvi Aryeh AIDS Foundation. Genius, you are the one who brought up the individual. And now you are telling me to do the checking! When you asked me earlier to research where the rule of glatt is written, I did not tell YOU to find it yourself. I never even heard of the Tzvi Aryeh AIDS Foundation. I did hear of Beth Israel, though. Date: Friday, June 20, 1997 4:48pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 737750 To: Steve Flur Re: More on the Shavout attack (Reply to #737591, Reply to #737456, Reply to #737316) (1 reply) SF>KK>Just a comment. The individuals participating in what was described SF>KK>above are not the educated cream of any world. Age has nothing to do SF>KK>with education or degree of religion. On Shavuoth, "the educated cream" SF>KK>of the Jews stay up a whold night studying. Many continue the next day SF>KK>without going to sleep. Those who do not stay up at night spend the day SF>KK>in the synagogue studying. They do not go visit the wall to participate SF>KK>in riots. They are also not the ones who throw things at others on the SF>KK>Sabbath. They do not commit transgressions on any holiday. If they do, SF>KK>then by definition, they are not the cream of the haredi world. They are SF>KK>simply gangsters. SF>So, where are the condemnations by the "leaders" if these are only the SF>actions of gangsters? Come to the orthodox shuls and you will hear them. Date: Saturday, June 21, 1997 7:34am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 737761 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #737727, Reply to #737715, Reply to #737688, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>(Previous exchanges ommitted) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>The point is that you have failed to convince me that O SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>is NOT homophobic! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>BTW--When discussing BJ's Gay Pride dinner with Deb I j SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>"Jewishness" of this event BECAUSE traditional, Orthodo SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>homophobic. In other words, I think that as Jews we ha SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>BECAUSE of the homophobic nature of our tradition. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I include "Liberal" and nonO congregrations as requirin SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>because the whole "Liberal", nonO movement is so young- SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>years old when it comes to "gender" issues, ( In this SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>"gender issues", I mean gay rights and women's rights) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>the work that has been done on "gender issues", even in SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>liberal congregrations, is far from complete! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Not I nor anyone else I know think that organized orthodox SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>not homophobic, however, we can try to educate. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>You can only educate if there is a willingness to be educated SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>afraid, that as a general rule, Orthodox Judaism is not willi SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>on 'gender issues'. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>That is an inacurate overgeneralization. SF>VI>SF>VI>Unfortunately I think it is an accurate statement. SF>VI>SF>We appear to differ, which may be due to our different perspectives. SF>VI>Different prespectives???? May, may that's understatement! You seem SF>VI>to be willing to pray in an atomsophere where you are not recognized for SF>VI>what you are. I refuse to do so. SF>The key difference remains is that this is how I was raised and where, SF>at least a part of me is most comfortable and I can be together with SF>what little family I have. What the future holds I do not know. I understand the need to be together with one's family. My family is even smaller than yours. It still boggles my mind, however, how you can tolerate the limited framework of Orthodoxy--but of course, you are not female so you can be in the closet about your "second class" status within the congregration. As a female, I can not do so. Date: Saturday, June 21, 1997 7:37am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 737762 To: Kkid Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #737749, Reply to #737583, Reply to #737455, R*) (1 reply) KK>SF>KK>SF>VI>SF>VI>If he's a member of the Frumgays list Steve than he's gay! KK>SF>KK>SF>VI>SF>VI>a nonqueer Orthodox Jew who takes the position that Levict KK>SF>KK>SF>VI>SF>VI>prohibit gay male sex. KK>SF>KK>SF>VI>SF>He was quoted on frumgays, not on frumgays. KK>SF>KK>SF>VI>Same difference. Call me a cynic but it is completely possible KK>SF>KK>SF>VI>is being quoted out of context OR that incompletely. KK>SF>KK>SF>Feel free to contact him. KK>SF>KK>How about finding out his name for us? I would not want to find out th KK>SF>KK>the current Chaplain is not the one who was being quoted on the list. KK>SF>Then check with the Tzvi Aryeh AIDS Foundation. KK>Genius, you are the one who brought up the individual. And now you are KK>telling me to do the checking! When you asked me earlier to research KK>where the rule of glatt is written, I did not tell YOU to find it KK>yourself. I never even heard of the Tzvi Aryeh AIDS Foundation. I did KK>hear of Beth Israel, though. The Tzvi Aryeh Aids Foundation is a group that does outreach with respect to AIDS in the Jewish community, and most specificially within the Orthodox Jewish community. I have heard of them and they are a real group. I do agree with you that it is annoying that Steve Flur mentioned the existence of this rabbi but seems unwilling to give us his name or references to any written work he has written. Date: Sunday, June 22, 1997 2:59pm Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 737818 To: ** ALL ** Re: decency laws: oxymoron... (Copy by Calvin, Reply to #737781, Reply to #736105, Rep*) -------------< COMMENTS BY Calvin >-------------- TO: Ersatz ----------< END OF COMMENTS BY Calvin >---------- ER>DT> Hey, V: people are like that, strange and varied in the ways and ER>DT>worlds they choose to get their rocks off on. That is one reason why ER>DT>they arent easy to force into conforming to one or another way of ER>DT>thinking about things... >9# ER>DT>--- ER>DT> * SLMR 2.0 * This tagline is yr brain on Drugs hear it move? ER>Its not really strange, Christians believe in the Old Testament just as ER>much as the New Testament, and there is a lot of that fire and brimstone ER>in the Old, not in the New. True, the Old Testament was written in a total different time, before Christ. The writers were inspired just the same, the New Testament the writers of at least two Gospels were with Christ. * OLX 2.1 TD * Coach Potato: Definition of absolute rest. Date: Monday, June 23, 1997 2:46pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 737843 To: Kkid Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #737749, Reply to #737583, Reply to #737455, R*) KK>SF>KK>SF>VI>SF>VI>If he's a member of the Frumgays list Steve than he's gay! KK>SF>KK>SF>VI>SF>VI>a nonqueer Orthodox Jew who takes the position that Levict KK>SF>KK>SF>VI>SF>VI>prohibit gay male sex. KK>SF>KK>SF>VI>SF>He was quoted on frumgays, not on frumgays. KK>SF>KK>SF>VI>Same difference. Call me a cynic but it is completely possible KK>SF>KK>SF>VI>is being quoted out of context OR that incompletely. KK>SF>KK>SF>Feel free to contact him. KK>SF>KK>How about finding out his name for us? I would not want to find out th KK>SF>KK>the current Chaplain is not the one who was being quoted on the list. KK>SF>Then check with the Tzvi Aryeh AIDS Foundation. KK>Genius, you are the one who brought up the individual. And now you are KK>telling me to do the checking! When you asked me earlier to research KK>where the rule of glatt is written, I did not tell YOU to find it KK>yourself. I never even heard of the Tzvi Aryeh AIDS Foundation. I did KK>hear of Beth Israel, though. I suggested you checking on this individual so you could not say the information was tainted by my "agenda". Date: Monday, June 23, 1997 2:47pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 737844 To: Kkid Re: More on the Shavout attack (Reply to #737750, Reply to #737591, Reply to #737456, R*) KK>SF>KK>Just a comment. The individuals participating in what was described KK>SF>KK>above are not the educated cream of any world. Age has nothing to do KK>SF>KK>with education or degree of religion. On Shavuoth, "the educated cream KK>SF>KK>of the Jews stay up a whold night studying. Many continue the next day KK>SF>KK>without going to sleep. Those who do not stay up at night spend the da KK>SF>KK>in the synagogue studying. They do not go visit the wall to participat KK>SF>KK>in riots. They are also not the ones who throw things at others on the KK>SF>KK>Sabbath. They do not commit transgressions on any holiday. If they do, KK>SF>KK>then by definition, they are not the cream of the haredi world. They a KK>SF>KK>simply gangsters. KK>SF>So, where are the condemnations by the "leaders" if these are only the KK>SF>actions of gangsters? KK>Come to the orthodox shuls and you will hear them. I have heard nothing in Queens nor have read anything in the US or Israeli press. Date: Monday, June 23, 1997 2:48pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 737845 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #737761, Reply to #737727, Reply to #737715, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>(Previous exchanges ommitted) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>The point is that you have failed to convince me tha VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>is NOT homophobic! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>BTW--When discussing BJ's Gay Pride dinner with Deb VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>"Jewishness" of this event BECAUSE traditional, Orth VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>homophobic. In other words, I think that as Jews we VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>BECAUSE of the homophobic nature of our tradition. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I include "Liberal" and nonO congregrations as requi VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>because the whole "Liberal", nonO movement is so you VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>years old when it comes to "gender" issues, ( In th VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>"gender issues", I mean gay rights and women's right VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>the work that has been done on "gender issues", even VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>liberal congregrations, is far from complete! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Not I nor anyone else I know think that organized ortho VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>not homophobic, however, we can try to educate. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>You can only educate if there is a willingness to be educa VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>afraid, that as a general rule, Orthodox Judaism is not wi VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>on 'gender issues'. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>That is an inacurate overgeneralization. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Unfortunately I think it is an accurate statement. VI>SF>VI>SF>We appear to differ, which may be due to our different perspectives VI>SF>VI>Different prespectives???? May, may that's understatement! You seem VI>SF>VI>to be willing to pray in an atomsophere where you are not recognized f VI>SF>VI>what you are. I refuse to do so. VI>SF>The key difference remains is that this is how I was raised and where, VI>SF>at least a part of me is most comfortable and I can be together with VI>SF>what little family I have. What the future holds I do not know. VI>I understand the need to be together with one's family. My family is VI>even smaller than yours. It still boggles my mind, however, how you VI>can tolerate the limited framework of Orthodoxy--but of course, you are VI>not female so you can be in the closet about your "second class" status VI>within the congregration. As a female, I can not do so. In my shul I am treated first class, as is Stanley. Date: Monday, June 23, 1997 8:55pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 737859 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #737845, Reply to #737761, Reply to #737727, R*) (2 replies) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>(Previous exchanges ommitted) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>The point is that you have failed to convince me SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>is NOT homophobic! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>BTW--When discussing BJ's Gay Pride dinner with D SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>"Jewishness" of this event BECAUSE traditional, O SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>homophobic. In other words, I think that as Jews SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>BECAUSE of the homophobic nature of our tradition SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I include "Liberal" and nonO congregrations as re SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>because the whole "Liberal", nonO movement is so SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>years old when it comes to "gender" issues, ( In SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>"gender issues", I mean gay rights and women's ri SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>the work that has been done on "gender issues", e SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>liberal congregrations, is far from complete! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Not I nor anyone else I know think that organized or SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>not homophobic, however, we can try to educate. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>You can only educate if there is a willingness to be ed SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>afraid, that as a general rule, Orthodox Judaism is not SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>on 'gender issues'. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>That is an inacurate overgeneralization. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Unfortunately I think it is an accurate statement. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>We appear to differ, which may be due to our different perspecti SF>VI>SF>VI>Different prespectives???? May, may that's understatement! You s SF>VI>SF>VI>to be willing to pray in an atomsophere where you are not recognize SF>VI>SF>VI>what you are. I refuse to do so. SF>VI>SF>The key difference remains is that this is how I was raised and where, SF>VI>SF>at least a part of me is most comfortable and I can be together with SF>VI>SF>what little family I have. What the future holds I do not know. SF>VI>I understand the need to be together with one's family. My family is SF>VI>even smaller than yours. It still boggles my mind, however, how you SF>VI>can tolerate the limited framework of Orthodoxy--but of course, you are SF>VI>not female so you can be in the closet about your "second class" status SF>VI>within the congregration. As a female, I can not do so. SF>In my shul I am treated first class, as is Stanley. Are you out in your shul? Date: Tuesday, June 24, 1997 12:55pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 737876 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #737859, Reply to #737845, Reply to #737761, R*) (1 reply) Interesting question. Stanley has accompanied me to services for 15+ years, sits next to me, and everyone who knows us knows he has lived with me all 15+ years, and they know I have never been married, so have I announced my orientation......not by word but by action. Date: Tuesday, June 24, 1997 6:12pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 737883 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #737876, Reply to #737859, Reply to #737845, R*) (1 reply) SF>Interesting question. Stanley has accompanied me to services for 15+ SF>years, sits next to me, and everyone who knows us knows he has lived SF>with me all 15+ years, and they know I have never been married, so have SF>I announced my orientation......not by word but by action. There's a difference, and you know it Steve. We have already discussed this matter a long time ago. I remember you telling me specifically that you doubted whether many of the members of this congregration..who were elderly and Holocaust survivors if I remember correctly...even had a conceptualization of what it means to be homosexual. In any case, I don't mean to personally attack you. It just boggles my mind how you can put up with all the "baggage" that comes with Orthodox Judaism. Date: Wednesday, June 25, 1997 11:28am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 737898 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #737883, Reply to #737876, Reply to #737859, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>Interesting question. Stanley has accompanied me to services for 15+ VI>SF>years, sits next to me, and everyone who knows us knows he has lived VI>SF>with me all 15+ years, and they know I have never been married, so have VI>SF>I announced my orientation......not by word but by action. VI>There's a difference, and you know it Steve. VI>We have already discussed this matter a long time ago. I remember you VI>telling me specifically that you doubted whether many of the members of VI>this congregration..who were elderly and Holocaust survivors if I VI>remember correctly...even had a conceptualization of what it means to VI>be homosexual. VI>In any case, I don't mean to personally attack you. It just boggles my VI>mind how you can put up with all the "baggage" that comes with Orthodox VI>Judaism. To start with I seperate the "religion" from the "leaders". Date: Wednesday, June 25, 1997 5:52pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 737907 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #737898, Reply to #737883, Reply to #737876, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>Interesting question. Stanley has accompanied me to services for 15+ SF>VI>SF>years, sits next to me, and everyone who knows us knows he has lived SF>VI>SF>with me all 15+ years, and they know I have never been married, so hav SF>VI>SF>I announced my orientation......not by word but by action. SF>VI>There's a difference, and you know it Steve. SF>VI>We have already discussed this matter a long time ago. I remember you SF>VI>telling me specifically that you doubted whether many of the members of SF>VI>this congregration..who were elderly and Holocaust survivors if I SF>VI>remember correctly...even had a conceptualization of what it means to SF>VI>be homosexual. SF>VI>In any case, I don't mean to personally attack you. It just boggles my SF>VI>mind how you can put up with all the "baggage" that comes with Orthodox SF>VI>Judaism. SF>To start with I seperate the "religion" from the "leaders". I question whether it is possible to make such a seperation. The baggage is part and parcel of the religion from everything that I have ever seen or heard. That is why, for me, I could only worship in a liberal Jewish setting where the leadership and the congregation conciously try to let go of this baggage. Date: Thursday, June 26, 1997 12:23pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 737926 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #737907, Reply to #737898, Reply to #737883, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>Interesting question. Stanley has accompanied me to services for 15 VI>SF>VI>SF>years, sits next to me, and everyone who knows us knows he has live VI>SF>VI>SF>with me all 15+ years, and they know I have never been married, so VI>SF>VI>SF>I announced my orientation......not by word but by action. VI>SF>VI>There's a difference, and you know it Steve. VI>SF>VI>We have already discussed this matter a long time ago. I remember you VI>SF>VI>telling me specifically that you doubted whether many of the members o VI>SF>VI>this congregration..who were elderly and Holocaust survivors if I VI>SF>VI>remember correctly...even had a conceptualization of what it means to VI>SF>VI>be homosexual. VI>SF>VI>In any case, I don't mean to personally attack you. It just boggles m VI>SF>VI>mind how you can put up with all the "baggage" that comes with Orthodo VI>SF>VI>Judaism. VI>SF>To start with I seperate the "religion" from the "leaders". VI>I question whether it is possible to make such a seperation. VI>The baggage is part and parcel of the religion from everything that I VI>have ever seen or heard. That is why, for me, I could only worship in VI>a liberal Jewish setting where the leadership and the congregation VI>conciously try to let go of this baggage. Having been raised and lived my entire life in this environment I do not find it as difficult as you to both live with it alll while working for change. Date: Thursday, June 26, 1997 5:23pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 737937 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #737926, Reply to #737907, Reply to #737898, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Interesting question. Stanley has accompanied me to services for SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>years, sits next to me, and everyone who knows us knows he has l SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>with me all 15+ years, and they know I have never been married, SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I announced my orientation......not by word but by action. SF>VI>SF>VI>There's a difference, and you know it Steve. SF>VI>SF>VI>We have already discussed this matter a long time ago. I remember SF>VI>SF>VI>telling me specifically that you doubted whether many of the member SF>VI>SF>VI>this congregration..who were elderly and Holocaust survivors if I SF>VI>SF>VI>remember correctly...even had a conceptualization of what it means SF>VI>SF>VI>be homosexual. SF>VI>SF>VI>In any case, I don't mean to personally attack you. It just boggle SF>VI>SF>VI>mind how you can put up with all the "baggage" that comes with Orth SF>VI>SF>VI>Judaism. SF>VI>SF>To start with I seperate the "religion" from the "leaders". SF>VI>I question whether it is possible to make such a seperation. SF>VI>The baggage is part and parcel of the religion from everything that I SF>VI>have ever seen or heard. That is why, for me, I could only worship in SF>VI>a liberal Jewish setting where the leadership and the congregation SF>VI>conciously try to let go of this baggage. SF>Having been raised and lived my entire life in this environment I do not SF>find it as difficult as you to both live with it alll while working for SF>change. Yes, and don't forget you are a male. That makes a world of difference. Date: Friday, June 27, 1997 9:00am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 737971 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #737937, Reply to #737926, Reply to #737907, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Interesting question. Stanley has accompanied me to services VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>years, sits next to me, and everyone who knows us knows he ha VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>with me all 15+ years, and they know I have never been marrie VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I announced my orientation......not by word but by action. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>There's a difference, and you know it Steve. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>We have already discussed this matter a long time ago. I rememb VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>telling me specifically that you doubted whether many of the mem VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>this congregration..who were elderly and Holocaust survivors if VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>remember correctly...even had a conceptualization of what it mea VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>be homosexual. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>In any case, I don't mean to personally attack you. It just bog VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>mind how you can put up with all the "baggage" that comes with O VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Judaism. VI>SF>VI>SF>To start with I seperate the "religion" from the "leaders". VI>SF>VI>I question whether it is possible to make such a seperation. VI>SF>VI>The baggage is part and parcel of the religion from everything that I VI>SF>VI>have ever seen or heard. That is why, for me, I could only worship in VI>SF>VI>a liberal Jewish setting where the leadership and the congregation VI>SF>VI>conciously try to let go of this baggage. VI>SF>Having been raised and lived my entire life in this environment I do not VI>SF>find it as difficult as you to both live with it alll while working for VI>SF>change. VI>Yes, and don't forget you are a male. That makes a world of difference. Gender cannot take the blame for everything. Date: Friday, June 27, 1997 9:25am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 737978 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #737971, Reply to #737937, Reply to #737926, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Interesting question. Stanley has accompanied me to servic SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>years, sits next to me, and everyone who knows us knows he SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>with me all 15+ years, and they know I have never been mar SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I announced my orientation......not by word but by action. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>There's a difference, and you know it Steve. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>We have already discussed this matter a long time ago. I rem SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>telling me specifically that you doubted whether many of the SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>this congregration..who were elderly and Holocaust survivors SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>remember correctly...even had a conceptualization of what it SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>be homosexual. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>In any case, I don't mean to personally attack you. It just SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>mind how you can put up with all the "baggage" that comes wit SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Judaism. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>To start with I seperate the "religion" from the "leaders". SF>VI>SF>VI>I question whether it is possible to make such a seperation. SF>VI>SF>VI>The baggage is part and parcel of the religion from everything that SF>VI>SF>VI>have ever seen or heard. That is why, for me, I could only worship SF>VI>SF>VI>a liberal Jewish setting where the leadership and the congregation SF>VI>SF>VI>conciously try to let go of this baggage. SF>VI>SF>Having been raised and lived my entire life in this environment I do n SF>VI>SF>find it as difficult as you to both live with it alll while working fo SF>VI>SF>change. SF>VI>Yes, and don't forget you are a male. That makes a world of difference. SF>Gender cannot take the blame for everything. Your gender makes it easier for you to accomodate yourself to Orthodox Judaism. There's a lot more for me to swallow, because I am female and a feminist. My feminism is the main reason why I can't accomodate myself to Orthodox Judaism. It is also the main reason why it gulls me so much that YOU are willing to accomodate yourself to Orthodox Judaism. Date: Friday, June 27, 1997 2:23pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 737994 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #737978, Reply to #737971, Reply to #737937, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Interesting question. Stanley has accompanied me to ser VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>years, sits next to me, and everyone who knows us knows VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>with me all 15+ years, and they know I have never been VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I announced my orientation......not by word but by acti VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>There's a difference, and you know it Steve. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>We have already discussed this matter a long time ago. I VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>telling me specifically that you doubted whether many of t VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>this congregration..who were elderly and Holocaust survivo VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>remember correctly...even had a conceptualization of what VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>be homosexual. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>In any case, I don't mean to personally attack you. It ju VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>mind how you can put up with all the "baggage" that comes VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Judaism. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>To start with I seperate the "religion" from the "leaders". VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I question whether it is possible to make such a seperation. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>The baggage is part and parcel of the religion from everything t VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>have ever seen or heard. That is why, for me, I could only wors VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>a liberal Jewish setting where the leadership and the congregati VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>conciously try to let go of this baggage. VI>SF>VI>SF>Having been raised and lived my entire life in this environment I d VI>SF>VI>SF>find it as difficult as you to both live with it alll while working VI>SF>VI>SF>change. VI>SF>VI>Yes, and don't forget you are a male. That makes a world of differenc VI>SF>Gender cannot take the blame for everything. VI>Your gender makes it easier for you to accomodate yourself to Orthodox VI>Judaism. There's a lot more for me to swallow, because I am female and VI>a feminist. VI>My feminism is the main reason why I can't accomodate myself to VI>Orthodox Judaism. It is also the main reason why it gulls me so much VI>that YOU are willing to accomodate yourself to Orthodox Judaism. Do you think you would be so "gulled" if that was how you were raised? Date: Saturday, June 28, 1997 8:23am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738029 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #737994, Reply to #737978, Reply to #737971, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Interesting question. Stanley has accompanied me to SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>years, sits next to me, and everyone who knows us kn SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>with me all 15+ years, and they know I have never be SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I announced my orientation......not by word but by a SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>There's a difference, and you know it Steve. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>We have already discussed this matter a long time ago. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>telling me specifically that you doubted whether many o SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>this congregration..who were elderly and Holocaust surv SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>remember correctly...even had a conceptualization of wh SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>be homosexual. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>In any case, I don't mean to personally attack you. It SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>mind how you can put up with all the "baggage" that com SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Judaism. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>To start with I seperate the "religion" from the "leaders" SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I question whether it is possible to make such a seperation. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>The baggage is part and parcel of the religion from everythin SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>have ever seen or heard. That is why, for me, I could only w SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>a liberal Jewish setting where the leadership and the congreg SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>conciously try to let go of this baggage. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Having been raised and lived my entire life in this environment SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>find it as difficult as you to both live with it alll while work SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>change. SF>VI>SF>VI>Yes, and don't forget you are a male. That makes a world of differ SF>VI>SF>Gender cannot take the blame for everything. SF>VI>Your gender makes it easier for you to accomodate yourself to Orthodox SF>VI>Judaism. There's a lot more for me to swallow, because I am female and SF>VI>a feminist. SF>VI>My feminism is the main reason why I can't accomodate myself to SF>VI>Orthodox Judaism. It is also the main reason why it gulls me so much SF>VI>that YOU are willing to accomodate yourself to Orthodox Judaism. SF>Do you think you would be so "gulled" if that was how you were raised? It's an imposible question for me to answer. Except I do remember feeling very, very angry as a child on the few occassions when I went to the small Orthodox shul in the overwhelmingly Catholic neighborhood where I was raised. I instinctively rebelled about sitting on the balcony behind a carton. And even IF this is the way you were raised it is still no excuse Steve. It is wrong and I expect you, as a gay male, to be more senstive to this kind of religious discrimination. Date: Sunday, June 29, 1997 10:42am Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 738065 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #737762, Reply to #737749, Reply to #737583, R*) (1 reply) VI>The Tzvi Aryeh Aids Foundation is a group that does outreach with VI>respect to AIDS in the Jewish community, and most specificially within VI>the Orthodox Jewish community. I have heard of them and they are a VI>real group. I do not doubt that. VI>I do agree with you that it is annoying that Steve Flur mentioned the VI>existence of this rabbi but seems unwilling to give us his name or VI>references to any written work he has written. Vida, based on the numerous texts where anal intercourse among men is prohibited there can really not be any orthodox individual who believes that it is permitted. Actually there can. Steve is such an individual. Odds are there are others who believe the same. I will however say that no such group, or Rabbi, would be considered Orthodox by any orthodox group...unless of course there is an orthodox group somewhere who says that sexual intercours between two men is permitted. I have no idea at all why I continue trying to converse with Steve. He just seems to rub me the wrong way :-) Date: Sunday, June 29, 1997 10:49am Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 738066 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #737859, Reply to #737845, Reply to #737761, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>I understand the need to be together with one's family. My family is VI>SF>VI>even smaller than yours. It still boggles my mind, however, how you VI>SF>VI>can tolerate the limited framework of Orthodoxy--but of course, you ar VI>SF>VI>not female so you can be in the closet about your "second class" statu VI>SF>VI>within the congregration. As a female, I can not do so. VI>SF>In my shul I am treated first class, as is Stanley. VI>Are you out in your shul? Can't wait to hear this answer! Date: Sunday, June 29, 1997 11:40pm Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 738077 To: Kkid Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738066, Reply to #737859, Reply to #737845, R*) (2 replies) Well... I have to admit that as a person who just walked into this forum, it seems like I have arrived in the middle of a distinctly interesting discussion. Unfortunately, I am not Jewish, and unless I miss the main gist of these messages, it seems to revolve around questions as they relate to one's Jewish spiritual background.(If I am wrong, please be as kind as you can when tell me to shut the heck up 'cause I dont know what I am talking about.) *grin* To that end, I do have one question about something kind of unrelated that was in an earlier message. It was stated that the person posting the message made a distinction between the "religion" and the "leaders." The answer to that(and I believe it was Vida who said it) was to question whether or not that can be done. If I understand the statement correctly, I have to say that I believe wholeheartedly that you CAN and SHOULD separate the belief system from those who are leading it. Although I am a practicing Methodist, I have to admit that when it comes down to the rubber meeting the road, I go on what I feel God says to me in my heart, and what I read in his Word moreso than what the church says. Most people dont seem to remember when they are cheering and screaming for these high-profile "spiritual leaders" that those leaders are MORTAL. They are human, and flawed, and are capable of mistake and error and sin as are the rest of us. To follow them, in my error like the rest of us. To me, to follow THEM, to always do what THEY say, would be in essence to reduce God to the role of a chess player, who sits and watches the game but doesn't really get involved. I'd be interested to hear what any of the rest of you may think, and if I have disrupted the ongoing conversation, I'll gladly accept a boot to the head when I am online again. :) Thanks, all, and keep smiling. It's the only defense we have sometimes. Date: Sunday, June 29, 1997 11:46pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738080 To: Kkid Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738065, Reply to #737762, Reply to #737749, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>The Tzvi Aryeh Aids Foundation is a group that does outreach with KK>VI>respect to AIDS in the Jewish community, and most specificially within KK>VI>the Orthodox Jewish community. I have heard of them and they are a KK>VI>real group. KK>I do not doubt that. KK>VI>I do agree with you that it is annoying that Steve Flur mentioned the KK>VI>existence of this rabbi but seems unwilling to give us his name or KK>VI>references to any written work he has written. KK>Vida, based on the numerous texts where anal intercourse among men is KK>prohibited there can really not be any orthodox individual who believes KK>that it is permitted. Actually there can. Steve is such an individual. KK>Odds are there are others who believe the same. I will however say that KK>no such group, or Rabbi, would be considered Orthodox by any orthodox KK>group...unless of course there is an orthodox group somewhere who says KK>that sexual intercours between two men is permitted. KK>I have no idea at all why I continue trying to converse with Steve. He KK>just seems to rub me the wrong way :-) I am sorry you feel that way. I enjoy reading your exchanges with him since I view you as the representative voice of traditional, Orthodox Judaism. :} Date: Monday, June 30, 1997 12:19am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738083 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738077, Reply to #738066, Reply to #737859, R*) (1 reply) No, welcome, welcome, welcome! That's one the beautys of this place...the way people twist and turn an ongoing thread, start new discussions, new trains of thought. In response, to what you have written I think you have to respect the fact that your prospective is different because you are Protestant, not Jewish. I think that with the Protestant religion in particular there is a distinction between the leaders and the people. After all, one of the main "beefs" of the Prostestant reformation, at least as I understand it, was a challenge of the authority of the priests...and a challenge to the very concept of priest as intermediatory between G-d and the congregration. So, for Prostestants, it has always been true that individual concepts of what were true/valid could outweigh the teachings of the leaders. Now, for the Jewish religion you have a wholly different matter. If you couldn't figure it out yet, I idenitify myself as a decidedly nonOrthodox Jew. However, I have to tell you that for primarily throughout Jewish history, for the Jewish religion PRACTICE was probably more important than belief. In other words, if you kept kosher and observed Shabbath [both of which I do not do} than you were a good Jew, if you do not even if you sincerely believed in G-d and all the other articles of the Jewish faith, then you were not a good Jew. Furthermore, the role of the Jewish religious leader, the rabbi or the rabbe (There is a difference between the two btw. A rabbe is sort of a "supper rabbi. He is a leader of a sect or a movement) has always been critical. The laws of the Jewish religion always needed interpretation, especially as modern technology presented Jews with situations that the Torah could have never forseen. For example, when the light bulb was first invented a rabbi had to the determination as to whether a religiously observant Jew could turn on a light bulb on the Jewish Sabbath. An individual religious Jew really wouldn't make that kind of decision for him/herself--he/she would consult the rabbi of the congregration to which he belongs....or perhaps the rabbe of the sect to which he/she belonged. So within Orthodox, traditional Judasim the role of the leader in formulating religious practice is key. So in this framework, it is not really possible to seperate out the leaders from the religion, or so I believe. {Steve Flur probably wouldn't agree with me on this one, but he can speak for himself.} Now, everything I just have written is not so true about nonOrthodox Judaism. But never forget, nonOrthodox Judaism has frankly been very heavily influenced by Protestant. The first nonOrthodox Jewish movement was the Reform movement, which started in Germany in the late 1800's and spread here to the US--originally among the German, elite, economically successful Jews. The Reform movement was originally frankly very much imititative of the Protestants in Germany and used their services as a model of what "sophsicated", "modern" religious services would be like. So first they started with the rabbi preaching a sermon in German, rather than Hebrew. Then they started with more and more prayers in the vernicular. But the bottom line is their way of thinking was very much influenced by the Protestant Reformation, the Enlightenment, etc., etc. The Conservative movement, btw, started off as an offshot of the Reform movement...by a group of rabbis in the Reform movement who thought that the Reformers were going to far. (There was a fabled dinner at the Reform seminary in the early 1900's where they served nonkosher foods such as shellfish at the dinner. Many people trace the start of the Conservative movement to this dinner.) So as an offshot of Reform, the Conservative movement is also influenced by the Protestant mindset. Date: Monday, June 30, 1997 12:27am Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 738085 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738083, Reply to #738077, Reply to #738066, R*) Hear hear! I have to admit, Vida, that I am very happy to hear that you consider yourself to be a non Orthodox Jew. I am not one to throw stones, but I have always failed to see how people who claimed to follow God, whether it be Jews, Catholics, Methodists, whomever, could think that despite the fact that He speaks so much of the intent in the heart, and the belief you hold for Him and His word, that you could almost seem to get into Heaven(or whatever you call it--I am not intentionally politcally uncorrect, I assure you, so please, anyone out there who I have not named, dont feel slighted) on the strength of what you DO--meaning that the intent doesnt matter. I mean, do they think they'll sneak it past Him when he isnt looking? :) In rsponse to your answer to me, I appreciate the info. Ican see now why it is so much harder for Orthodox Jews to differentiate between leader and faith. In essence, much as in the Cathloic religion, the church leaders are the ones who set the rules. You know, I have always wondered just exactly what God thought of that. I mean, it has to be pretty pompous for a mortal man to go around making decisions that affect the outcomes of people's souls. I know the same is done in my faith, but it doesnt seem to be done in the same way. :) Date: Monday, June 30, 1997 11:08am Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 738097 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738077, Reply to #738066, Reply to #737859, R*) SB>Well... SB> I have to admit that as a person who just walked into this forum, SB>it seems like I have arrived in the middle of a distinctly interesting SB>discussion. Unfortunately, I am not Jewish, and unless I miss the main SB>gist of these messages, it seems to revolve around questions as they SB>relate to one's Jewish spiritual background.(If I am wrong, please be as SB>kind as you can when tell me to shut the heck up 'cause I dont know what SB>I am talking about.) *grin* You are welcome to join any forum here. And if you think that by now I still recall what we are discussing you are wrong :-) SB> To that end, I do have one question about something kind of SB>unrelated that was in an earlier message. It was stated that the person SB>posting the message made a distinction between the "religion" and the SB>"leaders." The answer to that(and I believe it was Vida who said it) was SB>to question whether or not that can be done. If I understand the SB>statement correctly, I have to say that I believe wholeheartedly that SB>you CAN and SHOULD separate the belief system from those who are leading SB>it. Although I am a practicing Methodist, I have to admit that when it SB>comes down to the rubber meeting the road, I go on what I feel God says SB>to me in my heart, and what I read in his Word moreso than what the SB>church says. Most people dont seem to remember when they are cheering SB>and screaming for these high-profile "spiritual leaders" that those SB>leaders are MORTAL. They are human, and flawed, and are capable of SB>mistake and error and sin as are the rest of us. To follow them, in my SB>error like the rest of us. To me, to follow THEM, to always do what THEY SB>say, would be in essence to reduce God to the role of a chess player, SB>who sits and watches the game but doesn't really get involved. SB> I'd be interested to hear what any of the rest of you may think, SB>and if I have disrupted the ongoing conversation, I'll gladly accept a SB>boot to the head when I am online again. :) Thanks, all, and keep SB>smiling. It's the only defense we have sometimes. I'll have to think more about what you are saying before I am sure that I can properly respond. Off the cuff, I'd say that in Judaism we more or less are told to select a Rabbi for ourselves and follow what he teaches. This would make it very difficult to separate our belief system from the Leaders. Date: Monday, June 30, 1997 11:20am Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 738098 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738080, Reply to #738065, Reply to #737762, R*) (2 replies) VI>KK>I have no idea at all why I continue trying to converse with Steve. He VI>KK>just seems to rub me the wrong way :-) VI>I am sorry you feel that way. I enjoy reading your exchanges with him VI>since I view you as the representative voice of traditional, Orthodox VI>Judaism. :} I have no problem conversing with you or for that matter anyone else on this board. What upsets me about Steve is that he claims he is Orthodox and then goes about defining a version of "orthodoxy" that is completely different than any existing version of orthodoxy. I do not mind people disagreeing, but Steve does not disagree. He simply changes certain facts to support what he wants them to support. He came up with a definition of Glatt that is 100% incorrect. As I said earlier, I'd be willing to bet that more than 1/2 even of the orthodox Jews are not really aware of what glatt means. This includes even some owners of butcher stores. I wonder now if Steve will agree with what I said, or he will in some way rationalize that I and ALL the "shochtim", and the shulchan aruch are wrong and have no idea what we are discussing. This is why I did not really want to continue any religious discussions with him. To me it is analagous to trying to explain to someone that the earth is not flat while the other individual believes that the earth is flat. It is a waste of time. As an aside, this reminds me of a cute incident. Orthodox Jews bless the moon every month (except for one:-). In that blessing we say a sentence that translates more or less as....as I dance (or jump) before you (the moon) and can not reach you... There I was chanting this passage next to this nice, old 85 year old man. He smiled at me and said...Ha, and they think they will reach it! I asked him: They will reach what? He said: And they think they will reach the moon. I told him: They already did. He looked at me with a straight face and said: You believe that? Date: Monday, June 30, 1997 2:55pm Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 738116 To: Kkid Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738098, Reply to #738080, Reply to #738065, R*) (2 replies) If I may be so bold as to ask a question of a conversation to which I was not invited... This kind old gentleman didn't believe we ever reached the moon? Thats hard to believe. I dont suppose he has ever entertained the notion that the statement you quoted about not reaching the moon simply meant that as you danced(here on Earth), you couldnt reach the moon, did he? :) Also, you stated that a friend of yours claimed to be Orthodox, but his ideas didnt quite reflect that..(at least, thats what I got from it) I know what you mean in that respect. As a practicing Christian, it pains me to see and hear of things that people do "in the name of God." I dont think they quite get the idea that shooting innocent people and harming doctors who they believe are doing wrong(to name one specific type if incident) isn't QUITE what the Lord has in mind...at least, not as far as I know, anyway. :) Date: Monday, June 30, 1997 7:57pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 738135 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738116, Reply to #738098, Reply to #738080, R*) (1 reply) SB>If I may be so bold as to ask a question of a conversation to which I SB>was not invited... When a message is public, all who read it are invited to participate! :-) SB> This kind old gentleman didn't believe we ever reached the moon? SB>Thats hard to believe. I dont suppose he has ever entertained the notion SB>that the statement you quoted about not reaching the moon simply meant SB>that as you danced(here on Earth), you couldnt reach the moon, did he? SB>:) That IS the explanation! But no it never entered his mind. SB> Also, you stated that a friend of yours claimed to be Orthodox, SB>but his ideas didnt quite reflect that..(at least, thats what I got from SB>it) I know what you mean in that respect. As a practicing Christian, it SB>pains me to see and hear of things that people do "in the name of God." SB>I dont think they quite get the idea that shooting innocent people and SB>harming doctors who they believe are doing wrong(to name one specific SB>type if incident) isn't QUITE what the Lord has in mind...at least, not SB>as far as I know, anyway. :) Did I say that it was my FRIEND who claimed that?:-) Date: Monday, June 30, 1997 8:36pm Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 738142 To: Kkid Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738135, Reply to #738116, Reply to #738098, R*) Aha...now I understand more. I can get where you are coming from, and perhaps go one more. I had a friend who was raised in the same background as I was from day 1, and suddenly not too long ago decided to do a complete turnaround and join the Jehovah's Witnesses. I couldnt believe it! I mean, not only did he do it, but he did it while trying to HIDE it, and did it because of a woman he wanted to be with, who was a Witness.(For those of you who may not know, Witnesses cannot be joined with Non Witnesses.) Sounds like we both have people we know who say one thing and do another, eh? Date: Tuesday, July 1, 1997 7:28am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738181 To: Kkid Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738098, Reply to #738080, Reply to #738065, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>KK>I have no idea at all why I continue trying to converse with Steve. He KK>VI>KK>just seems to rub me the wrong way :-) KK>VI>I am sorry you feel that way. I enjoy reading your exchanges with him KK>VI>since I view you as the representative voice of traditional, Orthodox KK>VI>Judaism. :} KK>I have no problem conversing with you or for that matter anyone else on KK>this board. What upsets me about Steve is that he claims he is Orthodox KK>and then goes about defining a version of "orthodoxy" that is completely KK>different than any existing version of orthodoxy. I do not mind people KK>disagreeing, but Steve does not disagree. He simply changes certain KK>facts to support what he wants them to support. He came up with a KK>definition of Glatt that is 100% incorrect. As I said earlier, I'd be KK>willing to bet that more than 1/2 even of the orthodox Jews are not KK>really aware of what glatt means. This includes even some owners of KK>butcher stores. I wonder now if Steve will agree with what I said, or he KK>will in some way rationalize that I and ALL the "shochtim", and the KK>shulchan aruch are wrong and have no idea what we are discussing. This KK>is why I did not really want to continue any religious discussions with KK>him. To me it is analagous to trying to explain to someone that the KK>earth is not flat while the other individual believes that the earth is KK>flat. It is a waste of time. KK>As an aside, this reminds me of a cute incident. Orthodox Jews bless the KK>moon every month (except for one:-). In that blessing we say a sentence KK>that translates more or less as....as I dance (or jump) before you (the KK>moon) and can not reach you... KK>There I was chanting this passage next to this nice, old 85 year old KK>man. He smiled at me and said...Ha, and they think they will reach it! KK>I asked him: They will reach what? KK>He said: And they think they will reach the moon. KK>I told him: They already did. KK>He looked at me with a straight face and said: You believe that? ROFTL! I was completely unaware of this custom of blessing the moon for every month except one. It sounds like a fascinating custom. You mentioned, however, that there was one month that you do not bless when it starts. Which month is that and why? My educated guess is that it might be the month of Av and that one does not bless that month because of the the sadness over the destruction of the Temple and the other horrors that happened on Tish Ab Av. Am I right in my guesswork? Date: Tuesday, July 1, 1997 9:44am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 738194 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738029, Reply to #737994, Reply to #737978, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Interesting question. Stanley has accompanied me VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>years, sits next to me, and everyone who knows us VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>with me all 15+ years, and they know I have never VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I announced my orientation......not by word but b VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>There's a difference, and you know it Steve. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>We have already discussed this matter a long time ag VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>telling me specifically that you doubted whether man VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>this congregration..who were elderly and Holocaust s VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>remember correctly...even had a conceptualization of VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>be homosexual. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>In any case, I don't mean to personally attack you. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>mind how you can put up with all the "baggage" that VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Judaism. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>To start with I seperate the "religion" from the "leade VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I question whether it is possible to make such a seperatio VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>The baggage is part and parcel of the religion from everyt VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>have ever seen or heard. That is why, for me, I could onl VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>a liberal Jewish setting where the leadership and the cong VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>conciously try to let go of this baggage. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Having been raised and lived my entire life in this environme VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>find it as difficult as you to both live with it alll while w VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>change. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Yes, and don't forget you are a male. That makes a world of dif VI>SF>VI>SF>Gender cannot take the blame for everything. VI>SF>VI>Your gender makes it easier for you to accomodate yourself to Orthodox VI>SF>VI>Judaism. There's a lot more for me to swallow, because I am female an VI>SF>VI>a feminist. VI>SF>VI>My feminism is the main reason why I can't accomodate myself to VI>SF>VI>Orthodox Judaism. It is also the main reason why it gulls me so much VI>SF>VI>that YOU are willing to accomodate yourself to Orthodox Judaism. VI>SF>Do you think you would be so "gulled" if that was how you were raised? VI>It's an imposible question for me to answer. VI>Except I do remember feeling very, very angry as a child on the few VI>occassions when I went to the small Orthodox shul in the overwhelmingly VI>Catholic neighborhood where I was raised. I instinctively rebelled VI>about sitting on the balcony behind a carton. VI>And even IF this is the way you were raised it is still no excuse VI>Steve. It is wrong and I expect you, as a gay male, to be more VI>senstive to this kind of religious discrimination. Being sensative does not require abandoning how I was raised nor the heritage of my family. Date: Tuesday, July 1, 1997 9:53am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 738195 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738116, Reply to #738098, Reply to #738080, R*) SB>If I may be so bold as to ask a question of a conversation to which I SB>was not invited... SB> This kind old gentleman didn't believe we ever reached the moon? SB>Thats hard to believe. I dont suppose he has ever entertained the notion SB>that the statement you quoted about not reaching the moon simply meant SB>that as you danced(here on Earth), you couldnt reach the moon, did he? SB>:) SB> Also, you stated that a friend of yours claimed to be Orthodox, SB>but his ideas didnt quite reflect that..(at least, thats what I got from SB>it) I know what you mean in that respect. As a practicing Christian, it SB>pains me to see and hear of things that people do "in the name of God." SB>I dont think they quite get the idea that shooting innocent people and SB>harming doctors who they believe are doing wrong(to name one specific SB>type if incident) isn't QUITE what the Lord has in mind...at least, not SB>as far as I know, anyway. :) He was refering to me, who is both an Orthodox Jew as well as a gay male in a 15+ year relationship with another gay Jewish male. By some people's view I cannot be both. Date: Tuesday, July 1, 1997 5:06pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 738203 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738181, Reply to #738098, Reply to #738080, R*) (2 replies) VI>I was completely unaware of this custom of blessing the moon for every VI>month except one. It sounds like a fascinating custom. VI>You mentioned, however, that there was one month that you do not bless VI>when it starts. Which month is that and why? VI>My educated guess is that it might be the month of Av and that one does VI>not bless that month because of the the sadness over the destruction of VI>the Temple and the other horrors that happened on Tish Ab Av. Am I VI>right in my guesswork? Woops! Upon re-reading what I wrote I see that I may have erred. There are two customs. One custom is the blessing of the new month which is done the Sabbath before the start of the particular month while the other is the blessing of the full moon which is done during the month. The blessing of the full moon is done every month as I recall. It is the blessing of the month that is not. The month of Tishrei which has Rosh Hashanah on it's first day, is blessed by G-d and not us. Date: Tuesday, July 1, 1997 6:15pm Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 738206 To: Kkid Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738203, Reply to #738181, Reply to #738098, R*) (3 replies) Can I ask a question? Why is it that everyone else writes G-d and I write God? Is there some kind of ban on mentioning His name on here? :) Date: Tuesday, July 1, 1997 8:20pm Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 738235 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738206, Reply to #738203, Reply to #738181, R*) (1 reply) SB>Can I ask a question? Why is it that everyone else writes G-d and I SB>write God? Is there some kind of ban on mentioning His name on here? :) No, you have to understand that some of the members of the board are Jewish don't want to dishonor God my writing his name. Hopefully, Kkid, may actully have a better answer for you. * OLX 2.1 TD * My reality check came back marked, "Account Closed" Date: Wednesday, July 2, 1997 2:14am Forum: Theology From: Dti Msg#: 738321 To: Vida Re: Miracle text (Reply to #737643, Reply to #737481, Reply to #737381) (2 replies) VI>DT> So tell me: What is the difference between this specific account you VI>DT>have quoted here by Deb's request and anything else in terms of sudden VI>DT>appearances by god as detailed in your holy books or mine, or any other VI>DT>such volumes of words written by human beings for whatever reason? VI>There is no difference, of course. VI>Except that I believe that the time of direct divine intervention in VI>human affairs have ended. That era lasted during our 'childhood' as a VI>race. We are 'grown ups' now, so I believe that G-d lets us make our VI>own mistakes now. I do not believe in god, or gods, or really much of anything else I cannot readily apprehend as a more or less probable cause. Thanks for the reply, and the partial agreement, altho I don't see any 'childhood' period for the species that would have allowed direct intervention by some popular fiction represented as Ultimate Parent, either. I guess if I am wrong I will goto hell, but I doubt it, the place does not exist by my reckoning. Hope I am not being offensive with this, I do not mean to be. FWIW, I have no diff with you believing in things I do not see, I respect faith when people have it. I do disagree, however. VI>DT> Human trained in sees visual manifestation of VI>DT> and reports VI>DT>it to others who spread the Word of such manifestation more widely than VI>DT>the original reporter could possibly hope to in even the feverdream VI>DT>expansion of his/her personal illusion... I still do not understand why VI>DT>people need to make a god to have an excuse to be reasonable with each VI>DT>other, altho I can see why people want to imagine something that VI>DT>continues their personal image of life past the time they cease to have VI>DT>actual pulse/brain activity etc. It sucks to be born as meat, time is VI>DT>short by definition altho one can attempt to pass some things on to VI>DT>those born more recently... VI>People will always search for meaning and purpose in their lives, VI>that's true. Why do you think people generally have this strong trend towards externalizing the meaning of life by placing it into some written generally accepted myth system, like the popular theologies? Why do most people refuse to accept the meaning of THEIR OWN ACTUAL LIVES? --- * SLMR 2.0 * HEY ARE YOU OKAY? guess not O well what the hell Date: Wednesday, July 2, 1997 6:30am Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 738336 To: Nightbird Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738235, Reply to #738206, Reply to #738203, R*) (3 replies) Aha! Thank you for clearing that up. It never occurred to me that the Jewish faith didnt speak or write the name of the Almighty because they feel we are not worthy to do so. I had forgotten that. :) You are turning out to be my #1 source of info, Nightbird! :) Date: Wednesday, July 2, 1997 7:42am Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 738343 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738206, Reply to #738203, Reply to #738181, R*) SB>Can I ask a question? Why is it that everyone else writes G-d and I SB>write God? Is there some kind of ban on mentioning His name on here? :) You're quite observant :-) Many Jews will not spell His name completely unless it is in a text that will be used in a synagogue or at home to study from. Date: Wednesday, July 2, 1997 7:43am Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 738344 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738336, Reply to #738235, Reply to #738206, R*) (1 reply) SB>Aha! Thank you for clearing that up. It never occurred to me that the SB>Jewish faith didnt speak or write the name of the Almighty because they SB>feel we are not worthy to do so. I had forgotten that. :) Correct. I don't know about the unworthy part, but we don't even actually pronounce his name the way it is written even during prayers. Date: Wednesday, July 2, 1997 8:27am Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 738345 To: Kkid Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738344, Reply to #738336, Reply to #738235, R*) (1 reply) Thank you for the compliment! I find that being observant not only increases my ability to avoid errors, but actually keeps me out of trouble sometimes! :) Seriously, though, I wanted to say that I hope my writing of the Almighty's name does not offend anyone. I have always felt more comfortable thinking of Him as someone with whom I can speak as though h were physically standing beside me.(Though with the respect due Him) I find that it not only helps me in my prayers, but actually has made people who were nonbelievers feel more at ease with praying to Him. However, I do have a question. We know that He looks on the heart, measuring the intent of the believer, yes? Then if you write G-d, isn' that kind of unnecessary? After all, He knows what it means..I would sooner think He'd appreciate the directness instead of the seeming subterfuge.(Notice I said "seeming.") Any responses? :) Date: Wednesday, July 2, 1997 8:43am Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 738347 To: Dti Re: Miracle text (Reply to #738321, Reply to #737643, Reply to #737481, R*) (2 replies) Hi. You know, when I read this last message, I knew that I had to reply to it. Being not only a psych major but a person of faith as well, I think I am qualified to speak(at least a little) on these subjects. If I am way off base, or if I give offense, I ask in advance to be forgiven for it, as that is not my intention. First off, I have to say that I think the main error I saw in the whole thing is the fact that it sounds like God is just a creation made by man to either (a) explain life or (b) give life meaning. I think that this is illogical for two reasons. One, look at God's nature. Indeed, examine the nature of this Almighty Being in every major belief system in the world. In every one that I am familiar with, save for Atheism, here will come a time when all of creation will be judged to some degree. After this judgement, the good will go to Heaven, Paradise, whatever it is you want to call it, and the evil will be banished, condemned, destroyed, whatever. If man were going to create a pantheon by which they explained life, why would they create one in which you have the chance to be pnished when life ended? Why not create one where God is nothing more than a big, friendly Santa Claus who is just skulking about, biding his time and waiting to accept everyone in Heaven? Secondly, if you were to exclude God from the picture, and remove every religion that exists, life would STILL have meaning. In my opinion, God is not necessary to give life meaning. After all, our justice system doesn't follow God's precepts, and yet it gives our lives definition and meaning, yes? Meaning is inherent in our existence--it is a part of the world in which we live. So why create an elaborate religion, which to some degree is hindering, to explain life? My other argument against the beliefs expressed is this--if you look at mankind as a whole, I will grant that there have been many atrocities committed "in the name of God." As Spock said, "Ironic indeed that that which is supposed to be a balm for all pain is a cause of so many wars." However, if you were to sample the population, and look at those people who believe that God exists, He loves us, and that there is a place after this one that is better, and free of the sufferings here, you WILL find that they are happier, healthier, and as a general rule, more likely to reach out and try to change things. I know that there are fanatics in my belief--there are in every belief. But I dont believe a fanatic follows the teachings as they are written. I believe that somewere in there, the fanatic changes things to suit themselves. Besides, can you honestly say that all the myriad wonders in the universe just HAPPENED? All the intricate chemical interactions, the physical laws...they all just POOFed into existence? Somehow, I find the belief in God to be far more comforting and plausible than the POOF theory. Dont believe me? Put the components of a radio in a box and let them sit. No matter how long you wait, they dont just come together and form a radio. :) Thanks for reading all of this. Take care and be happy! Date: Wednesday, July 2, 1997 6:45pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 738393 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738345, Reply to #738344, Reply to #738336, R*) (1 reply) SB> However, I do have a question. We know that He looks on the SB>heart, measuring the intent of the believer, yes? Then if you write G-d, SB>isn' that kind of unnecessary? After all, He knows what it means..I SB>would sooner think He'd appreciate the directness instead of the seeming SB>subterfuge.(Notice I said "seeming.") Any responses? :) As far as I know, the purpose of not writing His name also deals with the fact that once the name is written it can not be erased, and the text that contains that name then has to be treated with reverance. Old Jewish texts are not thrown out but buried. Date: Wednesday, July 2, 1997 6:48pm Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 738394 To: Kkid Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738393, Reply to #738345, Reply to #738344, R*) (1 reply) Fascinating. I have never known another system of beliefs with so many rules and regulations. I guess that's why the Vulcans invented the concept of the IDIC...basically, "The differences between us are what make us great." :) Date: Wednesday, July 2, 1997 10:49pm Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 738418 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738336, Reply to #738235, Reply to #738206, R*) SB>Aha! Thank you for clearing that up. It never occurred to me that the SB>Jewish faith didnt speak or write the name of the Almighty because they SB>feel we are not worthy to do so. I had forgotten that. :) SB> You are turning out to be my #1 source of info, Nightbird! :) Hey, I speak of what I know, I'm glad to be of help. * OLX 2.1 TD * The OFFICIAL tagline of the 1996 Olympics! Date: Thursday, July 3, 1997 1:34am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738444 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738194, Reply to #738029, Reply to #737994, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Interesting question. Stanley has accompanied SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>years, sits next to me, and everyone who knows SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>with me all 15+ years, and they know I have ne SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I announced my orientation......not by word bu SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>There's a difference, and you know it Steve. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>We have already discussed this matter a long time SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>telling me specifically that you doubted whether SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>this congregration..who were elderly and Holocaus SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>remember correctly...even had a conceptualization SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>be homosexual. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>In any case, I don't mean to personally attack yo SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>mind how you can put up with all the "baggage" th SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Judaism. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>To start with I seperate the "religion" from the "le SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I question whether it is possible to make such a sepera SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>The baggage is part and parcel of the religion from eve SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>have ever seen or heard. That is why, for me, I could SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>a liberal Jewish setting where the leadership and the c SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>conciously try to let go of this baggage. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Having been raised and lived my entire life in this enviro SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>find it as difficult as you to both live with it alll whil SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>change. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Yes, and don't forget you are a male. That makes a world of SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Gender cannot take the blame for everything. SF>VI>SF>VI>Your gender makes it easier for you to accomodate yourself to Ortho SF>VI>SF>VI>Judaism. There's a lot more for me to swallow, because I am female SF>VI>SF>VI>a feminist. SF>VI>SF>VI>My feminism is the main reason why I can't accomodate myself to SF>VI>SF>VI>Orthodox Judaism. It is also the main reason why it gulls me so mu SF>VI>SF>VI>that YOU are willing to accomodate yourself to Orthodox Judaism. SF>VI>SF>Do you think you would be so "gulled" if that was how you were raised? SF>VI>It's an imposible question for me to answer. SF>VI>Except I do remember feeling very, very angry as a child on the few SF>VI>occassions when I went to the small Orthodox shul in the overwhelmingly SF>VI>Catholic neighborhood where I was raised. I instinctively rebelled SF>VI>about sitting on the balcony behind a carton. SF>VI>And even IF this is the way you were raised it is still no excuse SF>VI>Steve. It is wrong and I expect you, as a gay male, to be more SF>VI>senstive to this kind of religious discrimination. SF>Being sensative does not require abandoning how I was raised nor the SF>heritage of my family. Being senstive does require you, IMHO, not to accept the second class status of women within Orthodox Judaism. The fact is as a male within Orthodox Judaism you have a lot of male privelege and this doesn't seem to distrub you or upset you. Date: Thursday, July 3, 1997 1:35am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738446 To: Kkid Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738203, Reply to #738181, Reply to #738098, R*) KK>VI>I was completely unaware of this custom of blessing the moon for every KK>VI>month except one. It sounds like a fascinating custom. KK>VI>You mentioned, however, that there was one month that you do not bless KK>VI>when it starts. Which month is that and why? KK>VI>My educated guess is that it might be the month of Av and that one does KK>VI>not bless that month because of the the sadness over the destruction of KK>VI>the Temple and the other horrors that happened on Tish Ab Av. Am I KK>VI>right in my guesswork? KK>Woops! Upon re-reading what I wrote I see that I may have erred. There KK>are two customs. One custom is the blessing of the new month which is KK>done the Sabbath before the start of the particular month while the KK>other is the blessing of the full moon which is done during the month. KK>The blessing of the full moon is done every month as I recall. It is the KK>blessing of the month that is not. The month of Tishrei which has Rosh KK>Hashanah on it's first day, is blessed by G-d and not us. Ok, that makes a lot of sense. And thanks for the info on this custom. :) Date: Thursday, July 3, 1997 1:39am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738447 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738206, Reply to #738203, Reply to #738181, R*) SB>Can I ask a question? Why is it that everyone else writes G-d and I SB>write God? Is there some kind of ban on mentioning His name on here? :) Many, but not all Jewish people write the word "G-d". It is because of the Commandment "Thou shall not take the Lord Thy G-d's name in vein.". BTW, I am on several nonOrthodox Jewish e mail lists and there was a lively discussion on the list as to whether the word in English falls under this prohibition or whether the prohibition just relates to G-d's various names in Hebrew. Date: Thursday, July 3, 1997 1:44am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738448 To: Dti Re: Miracle text (Reply to #738321, Reply to #737643, Reply to #737481, R*) (1 reply) DT>VI>DT> So tell me: What is the difference between this specific account yo DT>VI>DT>have quoted here by Deb's request and anything else in terms of sudden DT>VI>DT>appearances by god as detailed in your holy books or mine, or any othe DT>VI>DT>such volumes of words written by human beings for whatever reason? DT>VI>There is no difference, of course. DT>VI>Except that I believe that the time of direct divine intervention in DT>VI>human affairs have ended. That era lasted during our 'childhood' as a DT>VI>race. We are 'grown ups' now, so I believe that G-d lets us make our DT>VI>own mistakes now. DT> I do not believe in god, or gods, or really much of anything else I DT>cannot readily apprehend as a more or less probable cause. Thanks for DT>the reply, and the partial agreement, altho I don't see any 'childhood' DT>period for the species that would have allowed direct intervention by DT>some popular fiction represented as Ultimate Parent, either. I guess if DT>I am wrong I will goto hell, but I doubt it, the place does not exist by DT>my reckoning. Hope I am not being offensive with this, I do not mean to DT>be. FWIW, I have no diff with you believing in things I do not see, I DT>respect faith when people have it. I do disagree, however. I have no problem in the world with you disagreeing with me on this point or any other point. I wouldn't want to live in a world where everyone agreed with me on any of my behalfs. :) DT>VI>DT> Human trained in sees visual manifestation of DT>VI>DT> and report DT>VI>DT>it to others who spread the Word of such manifestation more widely tha DT>VI>DT>the original reporter could possibly hope to in even the feverdream DT>VI>DT>expansion of his/her personal illusion... I still do not understand wh DT>VI>DT>people need to make a god to have an excuse to be reasonable with each DT>VI>DT>other, altho I can see why people want to imagine something that DT>VI>DT>continues their personal image of life past the time they cease to hav DT>VI>DT>actual pulse/brain activity etc. It sucks to be born as meat, time is DT>VI>DT>short by definition altho one can attempt to pass some things on to DT>VI>DT>those born more recently... DT>VI>People will always search for meaning and purpose in their lives, DT>VI>that's true. DT> Why do you think people generally have this strong trend towards DT>externalizing the meaning of life by placing it into some written DT>generally accepted myth system, like the popular theologies? Why do most DT>people refuse to accept the meaning of THEIR OWN ACTUAL LIVES? DT>--- DT> * SLMR 2.0 * HEY ARE YOU OKAY? guess not O well what the hell For me, my life has more meaning now that I have gone from being an atheist to being somewhat religious. My spirtuality has helped me transform myself from being a self righteous prig to a more humble human being. Date: Thursday, July 3, 1997 1:48am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738449 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738336, Reply to #738235, Reply to #738206, R*) SB>Aha! Thank you for clearing that up. It never occurred to me that the SB>Jewish faith didnt speak or write the name of the Almighty because they SB>feel we are not worthy to do so. I had forgotten that. :) SB> You are turning out to be my #1 source of info, Nightbird! :) I am not so sure if it is accurate to say that the Jewish religion believes that we are not worthy to say the name of the Creator. I think that it would be more accurate to say that Judaism teaches we are commanded not to do so. BTW, it is almost impossible really to say that Judaism in general teaches anything. The old joke is really true...if you get four Jews together you will get at least five opinions of what Judaism teaches or doesn't teach. :) Date: Thursday, July 3, 1997 8:46am Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 738497 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738394, Reply to #738393, Reply to #738345, R*) SB> Fascinating. I have never known another system of beliefs with so SB>many rules and regulations. I guess that's why the Vulcans invented the SB>concept of the IDIC...basically, "The differences between us are what SB>make us great." :) "We" have something called the Shulchan Aruch which basically lays out the day for us from morning until after we go to sleep. It even tells us in what order to dress and undress. I am not kidding! Date: Thursday, July 3, 1997 10:42am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 738510 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738444, Reply to #738194, Reply to #738029, R*) (2 replies) You obviously "assume" that I am neither sensative nor disturbed by certain aspects of orthodox behavior because I choose to attend a shul which now has a history of 5 generations of my family attending. What I am finding somewhat hurtful is your insistance that I abandon my heritage while Kkid considers me to have already abandoned my heritage, both for being true to myself. Date: Thursday, July 3, 1997 5:10pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738535 To: ** ALL ** Re: Some Orthodox words of sanity With all of my slamming of Orthodox Judaism's intollerance of nonO Jews, I thought that I should share the following commentary which appeared on Shabbat Shalom, an Orthodox e mail list I get. Finally, some words of sanity from the Orthodox stream!!! > >AISH HATORAH'S >Shabbat Shalom Weekly > > >Aish HaTorah -- Bringing the Warmth of Jewish Life to Every Jewish Home! > >BS"D > > > >GOOD MORNING! This week I receive the following letter from Rabbi Yitz >Greenman, Director of the Aish HaTorah New York Branch. It's a letter that >represents the feelings of all of us involved with Aish and probably many >Jews world-wide. It's a letter that needs to be read and passed on to >others. > > >"Last night I cried. > > Last night I went to the wedding of a close friend and cried. My tears >were not of joy, but of sorrow and pain. Oh no, don't misunderstand, it was >a beautiful wedding and they are a lovely couple. > >Now you may wonder, why else would I cry at a wedding? Perhaps it's the >incident at the Wall, where some of my Jewish brothers acted in a despicable >way and undermined the very outreach work that I do? That's not it. Maybe >it's the "Who Is A Jew" issue that has Jews of all stripes up in arms? No >again. What about the "religious" Jews who are accused of laundering money >for drug traffickers in NY? That's not it either. Well, then maybe it's the >fact that more than 50% of my brothers and sisters are intermarrying? > Sorry. What then could it be? > >I sat next to a very nice gentile man at this wedding who was recently in >Israel. When sharing the highlights of his trip with me he said, "You Jews >are in trouble -- and it isn't the Arabs. It's the fact that you're not at >peace with your fellow Jews. You're at each other's throats!" When I heard >that, I cried. > >Yes, our dirty laundry is hanging on the line for all to see and we have no >one to blame, but ourselves. All of the issues above bother me terribly, but >hearing this point from a non-Jew was the straw that broke the camel's back. > It's gotten so out of hand that the non Jews are wagging their fingers at >us. It's hard to be a light unto the nations when you're not shining. > We're not and we should be ashamed. > >You ask, ' What can I do? ' A lot. 1) Try to love all Jews, especially >the ones you disagree with. Realize that you're either part of the solution >or part of the problem. If you don't learn to recognize and appreciate the >virtues in all Jews, you're part of the problem. Period. It's easier to >feel closer to other Jews when you focus on the values that we have in >common. There are so many. 2) Stop accusing. It takes two to tango and >the blame lies on all sides. Try to understand where "they" are coming from. > Ask yourself: "If I were born into a non observant / observant (or right of >center / left of center) home, how would I feel about this issue?" It's not >necessary to change your views, but it is necessary to respect the rights of >other people to have their own views. 3) Study Torah. The Torah has been >our guide for over 3,000 years. As the great philosopher, Rav Saadiah Gaon, >said: "our nation is a nation because of the Torah." If you're not fluent >in Torah study, ask your rabbi to explain what the Torah says about these >complex issues. If you don't have a rabbi, now is a great time to find one. > > >We've overcome so many obstacles over the millennium and accomplished so >much, we can't let ourselves self-destruct now. We must stop this family >feud." > > > Date: Thursday, July 3, 1997 6:02pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738543 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738510, Reply to #738444, Reply to #738194, R*) (2 replies) SF>You obviously "assume" that I am neither sensative nor disturbed by SF>certain aspects of orthodox behavior because I choose to attend a shul SF>which now has a history of 5 generations of my family attending. SF>What I am finding somewhat hurtful is your insistance that I abandon my SF>heritage while Kkid considers me to have already abandoned my heritage, SF>both for being true to myself. I don't insist on anything Steve. You make your choices. But I am still entitled to make judgements based upon your choices. Date: Thursday, July 3, 1997 6:21pm Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 738545 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738543, Reply to #738510, Reply to #738444, R*) (1 reply) Hmmm... Perhaps a better way of saying it would be that you, as we all are, are entitled to make an ascertation as to motives from the actions of another. "Judgements" sounds so cold...so.."God-like." Sorry, but it's true. As a person who constatly battles the desire to pronounce sentence for what people do, I have come to realize the folly of it. Perhaps a line or two from a poem by Burns would be appropriate: "So gently scan your fellow, man, Still gentler sister, woman, Though they may gang a kennin wrang ** To stand aside is human. And this point stays forever dark, The reason WHY they do it, And just as lamely can ye mark How far, perhaps, they'll rue it." **To "Gang a kennin wrang," in the vernacular Scottish, essentially means "to go to wrong they know." Maybe that's something we all need to realize--these discussions are good, but if we're not careful, they basically become a way in which we can facelessly and painlessly pronounce judgement on people and force them to defend themselves. If I am wrong, so be it, but I would hate to be constantly put in a position whereby I felt I had to justify what I felt and why. Thanks, all! :) Have a good day. Date: Thursday, July 3, 1997 6:35pm Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 738546 To: ** ALL ** Re: A thought on my previous entry... My apologies... In the last message that I wrote, I quoted a poem from Burns. The problem is, I misquoted a couple of the lines. The meaning is still the same, but I got some words wrong. In an effort to make it right, I have found the poem in a book of quotations, and here offer the correct poem: "Then gently scan your brother, man, Still gentler sister woman; Though they may gang a kennin wrang ** To step aside is human. One point must still be greatly dark, The moving why they do it; And just as lamely can ye mark How far perhaps they rue it." **And again, to "gang a kennin wrang" means, essentially, "to go to wrong they know." My thanks for your patience and indulgence. :) Date: Friday, July 4, 1997 11:05am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738613 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738545, Reply to #738543, Reply to #738510, R*) (1 reply) SB>Hmmm... SB> Perhaps a better way of saying it would be that you, as we all SB>are, are entitled to make an ascertation as to motives from the actions SB>of another. "Judgements" sounds so cold...so.."God-like." Sorry, but SB>it's true. As a person who constatly battles the desire to pronounce SB>sentence for what people do, I have come to realize the folly of it. Yes! Yes! Yes! You are absolutely right. Sometimes I say things in the heat of emotion that are not quiet kosher. :) Date: Friday, July 4, 1997 4:11pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 738623 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738510, Reply to #738444, Reply to #738194, R*) (2 replies) SF>You obviously "assume" that I am neither sensative nor disturbed by SF>certain aspects of orthodox behavior because I choose to attend a shul SF>which now has a history of 5 generations of my family attending. SF>What I am finding somewhat hurtful is your insistance that I abandon my SF>heritage while Kkid considers me to have already abandoned my heritage, SF>both for being true to myself. Let's try again. I do not think you have abandoned your heritage. I have no idea what your heritage was or is. I simply consider you to be committing a sin every time you have anal intercourse with another male. And whether or not you do so is none of my business! Date: Saturday, July 5, 1997 10:52am Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 738640 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738613, Reply to #738545, Reply to #738543, R*) (1 reply) VI>SB>Hmmm... VI>SB> Perhaps a better way of saying it would be that you, as we all VI>SB>are, are entitled to make an ascertation as to motives from the actions VI>SB>of another. "Judgements" sounds so cold...so.."God-like." Sorry, but VI>SB>it's true. As a person who constatly battles the desire to pronounce VI>SB>sentence for what people do, I have come to realize the folly of it. VI>Yes! Yes! Yes! You are absolutely right. VI>Sometimes I say things in the heat of emotion that are not quiet VI>kosher. :) Thanks. I was hoping that the message would get the point across without sounding like I knew all the answers or thought I was better than anyone else. :) I am disappointed though--no one seemed to comment on the poem. :) Oh well, I guess it isn't one of EVERYONE's favorites...*chuckle* In any event, we now return you to your regularly scheduled messages.... Date: Saturday, July 5, 1997 10:54am Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 738641 To: Kkid Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738623, Reply to #738510, Reply to #738444, R*) KK>SF>You obviously "assume" that I am neither sensative nor disturbed by KK>SF>certain aspects of orthodox behavior because I choose to attend a shul KK>SF>which now has a history of 5 generations of my family attending. KK>SF>What I am finding somewhat hurtful is your insistance that I abandon my KK>SF>heritage while Kkid considers me to have already abandoned my heritage, KK>SF>both for being true to myself. KK>Let's try again. I do not think you have abandoned your heritage. I have KK>no idea what your heritage was or is. I simply consider you to be KK>committing a sin every time you have anal intercourse with another male. KK>And whether or not you do so is none of my business! Well said. What most people dont realize(myself included) is that even if what we believe someone is doing is wrong, to condemn them is just as wrong. We can try to make them see WHY it is wrong, but to beat them over the head and tell them they are bound for the lowest level of Hell isn't quite what God had in mind, I think.(I'm not saying that that is what you did, Kkid, I am merely making an example) Have a good day! :) Date: Saturday, July 5, 1997 5:10pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738642 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738640, Reply to #738613, Reply to #738545, R*) (1 reply) SB>VI>SB>Hmmm... SB>VI>SB> Perhaps a better way of saying it would be that you, as we all SB>VI>SB>are, are entitled to make an ascertation as to motives from the action SB>VI>SB>of another. "Judgements" sounds so cold...so.."God-like." Sorry, but SB>VI>SB>it's true. As a person who constatly battles the desire to pronounce SB>VI>SB>sentence for what people do, I have come to realize the folly of it. SB>VI>Yes! Yes! Yes! You are absolutely right. SB>VI>Sometimes I say things in the heat of emotion that are not quiet SB>VI>kosher. :) SB>Thanks. I was hoping that the message would get the point across without SB>sounding like I knew all the answers or thought I was better than anyone SB>else. :) I am disappointed though--no one seemed to comment on the poem. SB>:) Oh well, I guess it isn't one of EVERYONE's favorites...*chuckle* In SB>any event, we now return you to your regularly scheduled messages.... You have my permission to point out to me when I say something foolous. I apperciate your feedback. :) Date: Sunday, July 6, 1997 9:09am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738647 To: ** ALL ** Re: The meaning of Tisha B'Av (1 reply) This from Arthur Waskow, one of my teachers, on the meaning of Tisha B'Av. I think about Tisha B'Av as an archetype of sadness over the death of an old structure/ paradigm, which must be mourned fully and deeply if we are to free ourselves to move forward into new life. The image of the burning Temple coheres with the hot dry midsummer where there is no rain and the land seems ready to burn, and with the burnout of our selves and souls. The burning of the Jewish Temple is a microcosm of the universal danger. We could have dismissed this burning as a momentary physical defeat; instead we saw deeply that it encoded an existential, archetypal truth. God's Own Self went into exile. The universality of Tusha B'Av is not my own invention. The Rabbis asked where "Eicha!" -- the howling outcry of the Book of Lamentations, "HOW lonely sits the city," etc. -- where "Eicha" first was heard. And they answer that it is when God first called "Ayekka" (the same consonants with only different vowels), "Where are you??!!" to Adam after the mis-doing in the Garden of Delight. This is the first and deepest exile: spiritual galut. To say it is "spiritual" is not to cut it off from earthiness; indeed, this first misdoing was precisely that we ATE wrongly from the earth, and the result was that we were cut off from earth and found ourselves at war with her. Every spiritual exile involves an ethical/ political alienation, and every political exile is rooted in a spiritual failure. The political exile and the burning of the Temple comes because we have as a society failed to encounter God: we have exiled ourselves. As the Rabbis taught, the First Exile came because we embraced idols instead of the One Breath that breathes the universe -- idols that are only bits and pieces of the Whole, idols that have no life in them. And the Second Exile came because we hated each other -- another kind of idolatry, more subtle and more deadly because we pretend to be loving God as the reason to hate each other. We -- not just the Jewish people but the whole human race -- stand today on the brink of burning the holiest Temple -- the whole earth. The burning of Hiroshima and Nagasaki came also in the time of Tisha B'Av, and the archetype runs true. For the burning of these cities was a foretaste of the human race's misuse of its new learning, its eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Distinctions and Divisions, to carry out the burning of the world -- whether swiftly by nuclear weapons or more slowly by global heating and the like. If the First Exile resulted from our violation of the Utterance, "Have no other gods in place of the One Who Breathes all life," and the Second Exile resulted from our violation of the Utterance. "Don't murder," the third and broadest exile will come from our violation of the Tenth Utterance; 'Don't envy." For greed is another form of idolatry. It destroys both Adam and Adamah, and leaves the entire Garden and ourselves in flames. Let our observance of Tisha B'Av bring forth these truths. And let the mourning be deep. As deep as when we shovel earth on the coffin of our beloveds. If it is, we can accept that an old history is dead, the history that brought us to this brink of burning, and we can give new life to a new world. We can move thru the Seven Weeks to Rosh Hashanah, to the coming of new water in the wells of Abraham, to "HaYom harat olam, Today a world is newly conceived!" -- Shabbat shalom, Chodesh tov! -- Arthur. Date: Sunday, July 6, 1997 11:28am Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 738653 To: Vida Re: The meaning of Tisha B'Av (Reply to #738647) (1 reply) Please forgive the non use of a quote, but the previous message was long enough that I felt it was inefficient. As a non-Hebrew, I am at a bit of a loss. Exactly why was that letter posted, and of what significance is the Tisha B'Av in the Hebrew faith, other than a warning? Date: Sunday, July 6, 1997 11:31am Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 738654 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738642, Reply to #738640, Reply to #738613, R*) (1 reply) Thank you. I appreciate that--you would be surprised how many people do NOT want to hear it when you disagree with them, let alone speak against something they have done. :) I think that that fact has been the hardesy for me to come to grips with in my journey to become a counselor--that a person who does not WANT to be helped, cannot be helped. (Not to imply that you need help, merely again to reinforce the fact that you have an open mind; and in my opinion, that is the strongest weapon any of us have in our quest to better ourselves and the world as well. :) Date: Sunday, July 6, 1997 4:51pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738706 To: Sam Beckett Re: The meaning of Tisha B'Av (Reply to #738653, Reply to #738647) SB>Please forgive the non use of a quote, but the previous message was long SB>enough that I felt it was inefficient. As a non-Hebrew, I am at a bit of SB>a loss. Exactly why was that letter posted, and of what significance is SB>the Tisha B'Av in the Hebrew faith, other than a warning? Anytime you have a question, ask it. I frequently post things that I read on my various e mail lists, if I think that the post is particularly good. The main reason why I do so is to try to stimulate discussion here---or to share an interesting post with my friends here. Tisha B'Av is the Ninth day of the month of the Hebrew month Av. It is a fast day in the Jewish religion. It commentarates the destruction of both the First and Second Temple. Additionally, many diasters in Jewish history happened on Tisha B'Av--most noteably the expulsion of all Jews from Spain in 1492. Date: Sunday, July 6, 1997 4:53pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738707 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738654, Reply to #738642, Reply to #738640, R*) SB>Thank you. I appreciate that--you would be surprised how many people do SB>NOT want to hear it when you disagree with them, let alone speak against SB>something they have done. :) I think that that fact has been the hardesy SB>for me to come to grips with in my journey to become a counselor--that a SB>person who does not WANT to be helped, cannot be helped. (Not to imply SB>that you need help, merely again to reinforce the fact that you have an SB>open mind; and in my opinion, that is the strongest weapon any of us SB>have in our quest to better ourselves and the world as well. :) Yes, I can imagine that overcoming resistance is one of the hardest tasks that any counselor would have to deal with. But I try to listen to my friends when they point out my foibles. :) Date: Monday, July 7, 1997 3:13pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 738741 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738543, Reply to #738510, Reply to #738444, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>You obviously "assume" that I am neither sensative nor disturbed by VI>SF>certain aspects of orthodox behavior because I choose to attend a shul VI>SF>which now has a history of 5 generations of my family attending. VI>SF>What I am finding somewhat hurtful is your insistance that I abandon my VI>SF>heritage while Kkid considers me to have already abandoned my heritage, VI>SF>both for being true to myself. VI>I don't insist on anything Steve. You make your choices. But I am VI>still entitled to make judgements based upon your choices. I do not recall being on trial. Date: Monday, July 7, 1997 3:14pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 738742 To: Kkid Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738623, Reply to #738510, Reply to #738444, R*) (1 reply) KK>SF>You obviously "assume" that I am neither sensative nor disturbed by KK>SF>certain aspects of orthodox behavior because I choose to attend a shul KK>SF>which now has a history of 5 generations of my family attending. KK>SF>What I am finding somewhat hurtful is your insistance that I abandon my KK>SF>heritage while Kkid considers me to have already abandoned my heritage, KK>SF>both for being true to myself. KK>Let's try again. I do not think you have abandoned your heritage. I have KK>no idea what your heritage was or is. I simply consider you to be KK>committing a sin every time you have anal intercourse with another male. KK>And whether or not you do so is none of my business! Is that all you see? Date: Monday, July 7, 1997 6:21pm Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 738747 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738742, Reply to #738623, Reply to #738510, R*) (2 replies) SF>KK>SF>You obviously "assume" that I am neither sensative nor disturbed by SF>KK>SF>certain aspects of orthodox behavior because I choose to attend a shul SF>KK>SF>which now has a history of 5 generations of my family attending. SF>KK>SF>What I am finding somewhat hurtful is your insistance that I abandon m SF>KK>SF>heritage while Kkid considers me to have already abandoned my heritage SF>KK>SF>both for being true to myself. SF>KK>Let's try again. I do not think you have abandoned your heritage. I have SF>KK>no idea what your heritage was or is. I simply consider you to be SF>KK>committing a sin every time you have anal intercourse with another male. SF>KK>And whether or not you do so is none of my business! SF>Is that all you see? I dont think the point is that that is all that he sees. I think the reason for the response was to clairfy the fact that he wasn't judging you per se; instead he was merely pointing out his reasoning for some previous statements. Don't assume that that is ALL he sees. As Captain Kirk said, "You can be against someone and admire them at the same time." One could easily say that all you saw was the attack you perceived upon you, and bypassed his statement that "Whether or not you do so is none of my business." See what I mean? I personally think another topic may be in order, though it is not my place to necessarily say so; I just fear that this is going to get out of hand and start getting personal--which isn't necessary. Hurt feelings don't resolve too many things, from what I have seen. Date: Monday, July 7, 1997 9:22pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738757 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738741, Reply to #738543, Reply to #738510, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>You obviously "assume" that I am neither sensative nor disturbed by SF>VI>SF>certain aspects of orthodox behavior because I choose to attend a shul SF>VI>SF>which now has a history of 5 generations of my family attending. SF>VI>SF>What I am finding somewhat hurtful is your insistance that I abandon m SF>VI>SF>heritage while Kkid considers me to have already abandoned my heritage SF>VI>SF>both for being true to myself. SF>VI>I don't insist on anything Steve. You make your choices. But I am SF>VI>still entitled to make judgements based upon your choices. SF>I do not recall being on trial. You are quite right. You are not on trial. It was a hot headed thing for me to have written, written out of the passion of my feelings regarding the misogyny of the Orthodox movement. Date: Tuesday, July 8, 1997 7:52am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 738763 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738747, Reply to #738742, Reply to #738623, R*) (2 replies) SB>SF>KK>SF>You obviously "assume" that I am neither sensative nor disturbed by SB>SF>KK>SF>certain aspects of orthodox behavior because I choose to attend a s SB>SF>KK>SF>which now has a history of 5 generations of my family attending. SB>SF>KK>SF>What I am finding somewhat hurtful is your insistance that I abando SB>SF>KK>SF>heritage while Kkid considers me to have already abandoned my herit SB>SF>KK>SF>both for being true to myself. SB>SF>KK>Let's try again. I do not think you have abandoned your heritage. I ha SB>SF>KK>no idea what your heritage was or is. I simply consider you to be SB>SF>KK>committing a sin every time you have anal intercourse with another mal SB>SF>KK>And whether or not you do so is none of my business! SB>SF>Is that all you see? SB> I dont think the point is that that is all that he sees. I think the SB>reason for the response was to clairfy the fact that he wasn't judging SB>you per se; instead he was merely pointing out his reasoning for some SB>previous statements. Don't assume that that is ALL he sees. As Captain SB>Kirk said, "You can be against someone and admire them at the same SB>time." One could easily say that all you saw was the attack you SB>perceived upon you, and bypassed his statement that "Whether or not you SB>do so is none of my business." See what I mean? I personally think SB>another topic may be in order, though it is not my place to necessarily SB>say so; I just fear that this is going to get out of hand and start SB>getting personal--which isn't necessary. Hurt feelings don't resolve too SB>many things, from what I have seen. Being new here, what you are unaware of is long previous interchanges where we discussed our religious backgrounds and for anyone to dismiss an entire life and relegate it to a single sex act is...disappointing to say the least. Date: Tuesday, July 8, 1997 7:56am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 738764 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738757, Reply to #738741, Reply to #738543, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>You obviously "assume" that I am neither sensative nor disturbed by VI>SF>VI>SF>certain aspects of orthodox behavior because I choose to attend a s VI>SF>VI>SF>which now has a history of 5 generations of my family attending. VI>SF>VI>SF>What I am finding somewhat hurtful is your insistance that I abando VI>SF>VI>SF>heritage while Kkid considers me to have already abandoned my herit VI>SF>VI>SF>both for being true to myself. VI>SF>VI>I don't insist on anything Steve. You make your choices. But I am VI>SF>VI>still entitled to make judgements based upon your choices. VI>SF>I do not recall being on trial. VI>You are quite right. You are not on trial. VI>It was a hot headed thing for me to have written, written out of the VI>passion of my feelings regarding the misogyny of the Orthodox movement. I have never diagreed with you that human interpretation of divine will can be wrong. Date: Tuesday, July 8, 1997 9:05am Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 738765 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738763, Reply to #738747, Reply to #738742, R*) (1 reply) Agreed, that is not only disappointing, but illogical as well. However, I feel constrained to point out againt that it does not seem like he is dismissing you per se. I, too, have friends and family memebers who commit acts which I see as "sinful," but I do not allow that to becomt the sum total of who they are. I am able to keep the act in perspective with who and what they are to me. And I still suggest that a new subject may be in order. It seems as though this one has been exhausted and will only result in people becoming angry with one another. If I am wrong, then I will gladly withdraw my statement and make no more. Date: Tuesday, July 8, 1997 12:36pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 738766 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738765, Reply to #738763, Reply to #738747, R*) Feel free to continue to coment as you see fit, since a new perspective can only add to a discussion. Date: Wednesday, July 9, 1997 6:22am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738797 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738764, Reply to #738757, Reply to #738741, R*) (2 replies) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You obviously "assume" that I am neither sensative nor disturbed SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>certain aspects of orthodox behavior because I choose to attend SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>which now has a history of 5 generations of my family attending. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>What I am finding somewhat hurtful is your insistance that I aba SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>heritage while Kkid considers me to have already abandoned my he SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>both for being true to myself. SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't insist on anything Steve. You make your choices. But I am SF>VI>SF>VI>still entitled to make judgements based upon your choices. SF>VI>SF>I do not recall being on trial. SF>VI>You are quite right. You are not on trial. SF>VI>It was a hot headed thing for me to have written, written out of the SF>VI>passion of my feelings regarding the misogyny of the Orthodox movement. SF>I have never diagreed with you that human interpretation of divine will SF>can be wrong. In the case of the pigeonholing of women within Orthodox Judaism I am througly convinced that this is worse than wrong--it is a sin. Date: Wednesday, July 9, 1997 8:32am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 738805 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738797, Reply to #738764, Reply to #738757, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You obviously "assume" that I am neither sensative nor distur VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>certain aspects of orthodox behavior because I choose to atte VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>which now has a history of 5 generations of my family attendi VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>What I am finding somewhat hurtful is your insistance that I VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>heritage while Kkid considers me to have already abandoned my VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>both for being true to myself. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't insist on anything Steve. You make your choices. But I VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>still entitled to make judgements based upon your choices. VI>SF>VI>SF>I do not recall being on trial. VI>SF>VI>You are quite right. You are not on trial. VI>SF>VI>It was a hot headed thing for me to have written, written out of the VI>SF>VI>passion of my feelings regarding the misogyny of the Orthodox movement VI>SF>I have never diagreed with you that human interpretation of divine will VI>SF>can be wrong. VI>In the case of the pigeonholing of women within Orthodox Judaism I am VI>througly convinced that this is worse than wrong--it is a sin. Far be it from me to declare any action and/or thought a sin. Date: Wednesday, July 9, 1997 6:22pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738814 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738805, Reply to #738797, Reply to #738764, R*) (2 replies) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You obviously "assume" that I am neither sensative nor dis SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>certain aspects of orthodox behavior because I choose to a SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>which now has a history of 5 generations of my family atte SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>What I am finding somewhat hurtful is your insistance that SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>heritage while Kkid considers me to have already abandoned SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>both for being true to myself. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't insist on anything Steve. You make your choices. Bu SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>still entitled to make judgements based upon your choices. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I do not recall being on trial. SF>VI>SF>VI>You are quite right. You are not on trial. SF>VI>SF>VI>It was a hot headed thing for me to have written, written out of th SF>VI>SF>VI>passion of my feelings regarding the misogyny of the Orthodox movem SF>VI>SF>I have never diagreed with you that human interpretation of divine wil SF>VI>SF>can be wrong. SF>VI>In the case of the pigeonholing of women within Orthodox Judaism I am SF>VI>througly convinced that this is worse than wrong--it is a sin. SF>Far be it from me to declare any action and/or thought a sin. And why not? Isn't murder a sin? Just because you are gay doesn't mean you have to endorse moral relativism. Date: Thursday, July 10, 1997 12:00am Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 738824 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738747, Reply to #738742, Reply to #738623, R*) (2 replies) SB>SF>Is that all you see? SB> I dont think the point is that that is all that he sees. I think the SB>reason for the response was to clairfy the fact that he wasn't judging SB>you per se; instead he was merely pointing out his reasoning for some SB>previous statements. Don't assume that that is ALL he sees. As Captain SB>Kirk said, "You can be against someone and admire them at the same SB>time." One could easily say that all you saw was the attack you SB>perceived upon you, and bypassed his statement that "Whether or not you SB>do so is none of my business." See what I mean? I personally think SB>another topic may be in order, though it is not my place to necessarily SB>say so; I just fear that this is going to get out of hand and start SB>getting personal--which isn't necessary. Hurt feelings don't resolve too SB>many things, from what I have seen. Thanks for joining this thread but Steve and I seem to have a long history of misunderstanding. I'd really get worried if he starts understanding me :-) Date: Thursday, July 10, 1997 12:05am Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 738825 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738763, Reply to #738747, Reply to #738742, R*) (1 reply) SF>Being new here, what you are unaware of is long previous interchanges SF>where we discussed our religious backgrounds and for anyone to dismiss SF>an entire life and relegate it to a single sex act is...disappointing to SF>say the least. Steve, every once in a while I miss entirely the point you are trying to make. This is another such message. Are you telling Sam B that I am guilty of dismissing your entire life??? I know nothing about your ENTIRE life except what you share publicly on this bbs. Date: Thursday, July 10, 1997 8:22am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 738832 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738814, Reply to #738805, Reply to #738797, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You obviously "assume" that I am neither sensative nor VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>certain aspects of orthodox behavior because I choose t VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>which now has a history of 5 generations of my family a VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>What I am finding somewhat hurtful is your insistance t VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>heritage while Kkid considers me to have already abando VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>both for being true to myself. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't insist on anything Steve. You make your choices. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>still entitled to make judgements based upon your choices. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I do not recall being on trial. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>You are quite right. You are not on trial. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>It was a hot headed thing for me to have written, written out of VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>passion of my feelings regarding the misogyny of the Orthodox mo VI>SF>VI>SF>I have never diagreed with you that human interpretation of divine VI>SF>VI>SF>can be wrong. VI>SF>VI>In the case of the pigeonholing of women within Orthodox Judaism I am VI>SF>VI>througly convinced that this is worse than wrong--it is a sin. VI>SF>Far be it from me to declare any action and/or thought a sin. VI>And why not? Isn't murder a sin? Just because you are gay doesn't VI>mean you have to endorse moral relativism. There is a difference between what is explicitely labeled by the Bible as sin and what humans choose to label as sin. Date: Thursday, July 10, 1997 8:23am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 738833 To: Kkid Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738824, Reply to #738747, Reply to #738742, R*) (1 reply) KK>SB>SF>Is that all you see? KK>SB> I dont think the point is that that is all that he sees. I think the KK>SB>reason for the response was to clairfy the fact that he wasn't judging KK>SB>you per se; instead he was merely pointing out his reasoning for some KK>SB>previous statements. Don't assume that that is ALL he sees. As Captain KK>SB>Kirk said, "You can be against someone and admire them at the same KK>SB>time." One could easily say that all you saw was the attack you KK>SB>perceived upon you, and bypassed his statement that "Whether or not you KK>SB>do so is none of my business." See what I mean? I personally think KK>SB>another topic may be in order, though it is not my place to necessarily KK>SB>say so; I just fear that this is going to get out of hand and start KK>SB>getting personal--which isn't necessary. Hurt feelings don't resolve too KK>SB>many things, from what I have seen. KK>Thanks for joining this thread but Steve and I seem to have a long KK>history of misunderstanding. I'd really get worried if he starts KK>understanding me :-) Actually I fully understand you. Date: Thursday, July 10, 1997 8:24am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 738834 To: Kkid Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738825, Reply to #738763, Reply to #738747, R*) (1 reply) KK>SF>Being new here, what you are unaware of is long previous interchanges KK>SF>where we discussed our religious backgrounds and for anyone to dismiss KK>SF>an entire life and relegate it to a single sex act is...disappointing to KK>SF>say the least. KK>Steve, every once in a while I miss entirely the point you are trying to KK>make. This is another such message. Are you telling Sam B that I am KK>guilty of dismissing your entire life??? KK>I know nothing about your ENTIRE life except what you share publicly on KK>this bbs. When you see being gay as only a question of wether or not anal intercourse is a sin, yes you have dismissed everything else. Date: Thursday, July 10, 1997 8:27am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 738835 To: Vida Re: ADVOCATE (1 reply) You might want to check out the latest edition of the Advocate. There are a whole series of articles about gays and religion, including one about Judaism, with many of the gayjews members prominantly profiled. Date: Thursday, July 10, 1997 6:32pm Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 738851 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738797, Reply to #738764, Reply to #738757, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You obviously "assume" that I am neither sensative nor distur VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>certain aspects of orthodox behavior because I choose to atte VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>which now has a history of 5 generations of my family attendi VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>What I am finding somewhat hurtful is your insistance that I VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>heritage while Kkid considers me to have already abandoned my VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>both for being true to myself. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't insist on anything Steve. You make your choices. But I VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>still entitled to make judgements based upon your choices. VI>SF>VI>SF>I do not recall being on trial. VI>SF>VI>You are quite right. You are not on trial. VI>SF>VI>It was a hot headed thing for me to have written, written out of the VI>SF>VI>passion of my feelings regarding the misogyny of the Orthodox movement VI>SF>I have never diagreed with you that human interpretation of divine will VI>SF>can be wrong. VI>In the case of the pigeonholing of women within Orthodox Judaism I am VI>througly convinced that this is worse than wrong--it is a sin. Agreed. I do not know if I would label it a "sin" as such, but I thoroughly believe that it must sadden and perhaps anger God to see women being placed in the "sidelines" so to speak. I have never read ANYWHERE in the Scriptures that women are lesser, or unequal to men. As a matter of fact, there are quite a few examples of women being used by God and being very strong willed. Personally, I believe it to be a waste of time. Let's face it--if Satan can keep us focused on little things, that really takes our attention off of what is important, yes? Date: Thursday, July 10, 1997 6:33pm Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 738852 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738814, Reply to #738805, Reply to #738797, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You obviously "assume" that I am neither sensative nor VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>certain aspects of orthodox behavior because I choose t VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>which now has a history of 5 generations of my family a VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>What I am finding somewhat hurtful is your insistance t VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>heritage while Kkid considers me to have already abando VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>both for being true to myself. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't insist on anything Steve. You make your choices. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>still entitled to make judgements based upon your choices. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I do not recall being on trial. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>You are quite right. You are not on trial. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>It was a hot headed thing for me to have written, written out of VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>passion of my feelings regarding the misogyny of the Orthodox mo VI>SF>VI>SF>I have never diagreed with you that human interpretation of divine VI>SF>VI>SF>can be wrong. VI>SF>VI>In the case of the pigeonholing of women within Orthodox Judaism I am VI>SF>VI>througly convinced that this is worse than wrong--it is a sin. VI>SF>Far be it from me to declare any action and/or thought a sin. VI>And why not? Isn't murder a sin? Just because you are gay doesn't VI>mean you have to endorse moral relativism. Again, I have to agree and disagree. I don't know if we as mortals have the ability to adequately name what is sinful and what is not, but I definitely think that we are required to make judgements of a sort on actions which we see around us. The difference is, and this is backed by scripture, everyone must work out their OWN walk with God to a certain extent. After all, He has promised to let us know when we sin, hasn't He? Date: Thursday, July 10, 1997 6:34pm Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 738853 To: Kkid Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738824, Reply to #738747, Reply to #738742, R*) (1 reply) KK>SB>SF>Is that all you see? KK>SB> I dont think the point is that that is all that he sees. I think the KK>SB>reason for the response was to clairfy the fact that he wasn't judging KK>SB>you per se; instead he was merely pointing out his reasoning for some KK>SB>previous statements. Don't assume that that is ALL he sees. As Captain KK>SB>Kirk said, "You can be against someone and admire them at the same KK>SB>time." One could easily say that all you saw was the attack you KK>SB>perceived upon you, and bypassed his statement that "Whether or not you KK>SB>do so is none of my business." See what I mean? I personally think KK>SB>another topic may be in order, though it is not my place to necessarily KK>SB>say so; I just fear that this is going to get out of hand and start KK>SB>getting personal--which isn't necessary. Hurt feelings don't resolve too KK>SB>many things, from what I have seen. KK>Thanks for joining this thread but Steve and I seem to have a long KK>history of misunderstanding. I'd really get worried if he starts KK>understanding me :-) rried or scared? Isn't it illogical to continue debating with a person when the purpose of the debate has been lost in time? Date: Thursday, July 10, 1997 6:36pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738854 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738832, Reply to #738814, Reply to #738805, R*) (2 replies) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You obviously "assume" that I am neither sensative n SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>certain aspects of orthodox behavior because I choos SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>which now has a history of 5 generations of my famil SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>What I am finding somewhat hurtful is your insistanc SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>heritage while Kkid considers me to have already aba SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>both for being true to myself. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't insist on anything Steve. You make your choice SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>still entitled to make judgements based upon your choic SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I do not recall being on trial. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>You are quite right. You are not on trial. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>It was a hot headed thing for me to have written, written out SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>passion of my feelings regarding the misogyny of the Orthodox SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I have never diagreed with you that human interpretation of divi SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>can be wrong. SF>VI>SF>VI>In the case of the pigeonholing of women within Orthodox Judaism I SF>VI>SF>VI>througly convinced that this is worse than wrong--it is a sin. SF>VI>SF>Far be it from me to declare any action and/or thought a sin. SF>VI>And why not? Isn't murder a sin? Just because you are gay doesn't SF>VI>mean you have to endorse moral relativism. SF>There is a difference between what is explicitely labeled by the Bible SF>as sin and what humans choose to label as sin. But this does violate the Bible. Genesis 1: 26 provides: "G-d said, "Let us make man with our image and likeness. Let him dominate the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the livestock animal, and all the earth--and every land animal that walks the earth. G-d created man with His image. In the Image of G-d, He created him, male and female. He created them." (Rabbi Kaplan's translation, from "The Living Torah". To my way of thinking this is the foundation stone of all Torah. Nothing can violate it and constitute G-d's will. Date: Thursday, July 10, 1997 6:36pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738855 To: Steve Flur Re: ADVOCATE (Reply to #738835) (1 reply) SF>You might want to check out the latest edition of the Advocate. There SF>are a whole series of articles about gays and religion, including one SF>about Judaism, with many of the gayjews members prominantly profiled. Ok. I'll see if I can find it. But don't throw your issue out, just in case I can't. Date: Thursday, July 10, 1997 6:39pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738856 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738851, Reply to #738797, Reply to #738764, R*) (1 reply) SB>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You obviously "assume" that I am neither sensative nor dis SB>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>certain aspects of orthodox behavior because I choose to a SB>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>which now has a history of 5 generations of my family atte SB>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>What I am finding somewhat hurtful is your insistance that SB>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>heritage while Kkid considers me to have already abandoned SB>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>both for being true to myself. SB>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't insist on anything Steve. You make your choices. Bu SB>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>still entitled to make judgements based upon your choices. SB>VI>SF>VI>SF>I do not recall being on trial. SB>VI>SF>VI>You are quite right. You are not on trial. SB>VI>SF>VI>It was a hot headed thing for me to have written, written out of th SB>VI>SF>VI>passion of my feelings regarding the misogyny of the Orthodox movem SB>VI>SF>I have never diagreed with you that human interpretation of divine wil SB>VI>SF>can be wrong. SB>VI>In the case of the pigeonholing of women within Orthodox Judaism I am SB>VI>througly convinced that this is worse than wrong--it is a sin. SB>Agreed. I do not know if I would label it a "sin" as such, but I SB>thoroughly believe that it must sadden and perhaps anger God to see SB>women being placed in the "sidelines" so to speak. I have never read SB>ANYWHERE in the Scriptures that women are lesser, or unequal to men. As SB>a matter of fact, there are quite a few examples of women being used by SB>God and being very strong willed. Personally, I believe it to be a waste SB>of time. Let's face it--if Satan can keep us focused on little things, SB>that really takes our attention off of what is important, yes? I think it is the WORSE kind of sin--because it is being done in G-d's name. I don't understand your comment that where you say "Personally, I believe it to be a waste of time.". What is a waste of time? My concern over sexism in Orthodox Judaism? Or Orthodox Judaism sexism? Date: Thursday, July 10, 1997 6:41pm Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 738857 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738856, Reply to #738851, Reply to #738797, R*) (1 reply) I apologize, Vida. I meant to imply that I consider sexism in general, and especially discrimination to be a waste of time. The battle to overcome it, and indeed to overcome ALL evil, is never a waste of time. :) Date: Thursday, July 10, 1997 6:44pm Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 738858 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738854, Reply to #738832, Reply to #738814, R*) (2 replies) I have to agree, although not from a position of the Torah. It is a fact that the Bible does speak out against homosexuality in all its forms. I know I invite either fire or that tired old "The Bible was written by man" argument, but as long as we are using Holy Scriptures, it is a fair statement, in my opinion. For those of you who are curious, I invite you to read Romans Chapter 1, specifically Verses 26-32. And no, in case anyone wonders, i did not take them out of context. They speak specifically about homosexuality, and so I noted them. Date: Thursday, July 10, 1997 6:47pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738859 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738852, Reply to #738814, Reply to #738805, R*) (1 reply) SB>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You obviously "assume" that I am neither sensative n SB>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>certain aspects of orthodox behavior because I choos SB>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>which now has a history of 5 generations of my famil SB>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>What I am finding somewhat hurtful is your insistanc SB>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>heritage while Kkid considers me to have already aba SB>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>both for being true to myself. SB>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't insist on anything Steve. You make your choice SB>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>still entitled to make judgements based upon your choic SB>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I do not recall being on trial. SB>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>You are quite right. You are not on trial. SB>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>It was a hot headed thing for me to have written, written out SB>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>passion of my feelings regarding the misogyny of the Orthodox SB>VI>SF>VI>SF>I have never diagreed with you that human interpretation of divi SB>VI>SF>VI>SF>can be wrong. SB>VI>SF>VI>In the case of the pigeonholing of women within Orthodox Judaism I SB>VI>SF>VI>througly convinced that this is worse than wrong--it is a sin. SB>VI>SF>Far be it from me to declare any action and/or thought a sin. SB>VI>And why not? Isn't murder a sin? Just because you are gay doesn't SB>VI>mean you have to endorse moral relativism. SB>Again, I have to agree and disagree. I don't know if we as mortals have SB>the ability to adequately name what is sinful and what is not, but I SB>definitely think that we are required to make judgements of a sort on SB>actions which we see around us. The difference is, and this is backed by SB>scripture, everyone must work out their OWN walk with God to a certain SB>extent. After all, He has promised to let us know when we sin, hasn't SB>He? I believe that each of us have a divine spark that communicates to us. My divine spark very clearly and very loudly communicates to me that all human beings were created in the image of G-d. That divine spark also speaks loudly and clearly to me that discrimination based upon race, gender, sexual orientation, and nationality violates this foundation stone of ALL morality and is therefore a sin. So yes, I believe that G-d has promised us to communicate to us when we sin. And that communication can come from our inner divine spark. Date: Thursday, July 10, 1997 7:10pm Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 738861 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738859, Reply to #738852, Reply to #738814, R*) (1 reply) Agreed. Your divine spark is what I call the Holy Spirit--the comforter that God promised to send us when His son returned to Heaven. :) Nice to know we agree to an extent. :) Date: Thursday, July 10, 1997 7:41pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738863 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738857, Reply to #738856, Reply to #738851, R*) SB>I apologize, Vida. I meant to imply that I consider sexism in general, SB>and especially discrimination to be a waste of time. The battle to SB>overcome it, and indeed to overcome ALL evil, is never a waste of time. SB>:) Thanks for the clarification. I agree of course. Date: Thursday, July 10, 1997 7:54pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738864 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738858, Reply to #738854, Reply to #738832, R*) (3 replies) SB>I have to agree, although not from a position of the Torah. It is a fact SB>that the Bible does speak out against homosexuality in all its forms. I SB>know I invite either fire or that tired old "The Bible was written by SB>man" argument, but as long as we are using Holy Scriptures, it is a fair SB>statement, in my opinion. For those of you who are curious, I invite you SB>to read Romans Chapter 1, specifically Verses 26-32. And no, in case SB>anyone wonders, i did not take them out of context. They speak SB>specifically about homosexuality, and so I noted them. The book of Romans is in the so called "New Testament" and therefore is not part of the Jewish bible. With reference to the sections of the Torah which seem to condemn MALE homosexuality, there has been much discussion in the liberal Jewish circles that I travel in as to the exact meaning of the Torah portions. Some people in Liberal Jewish circles contend that the prohibition specifically refers to the cult of male prostitution that was practiced by the Greeks and that this is the only thing that the Torah intends to prohibit. Some people contend that the Torah prohibits a male homosexual from pretending that he is having sex with a woman, when in fact he is having sex with a man. Some people contend that the prohibition only refers to anal intercourse between men and that all other forms of male homosexuality are permitted. In my opinion, it is clear that the Bible can in no way outright condemn homosexuality. G-d created g/l human beings. Since ALL humans are created in the image of the divine this means that g/l people are as precious to G-d as every other human people. Date: Thursday, July 10, 1997 7:56pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738865 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738861, Reply to #738859, Reply to #738852, R*) SB>Agreed. Your divine spark is what I call the Holy Spirit--the comforter SB>that God promised to send us when His son returned to Heaven. :) Nice to SB>know we agree to an extent. :) In Jewish terms, it is the Shekhinah. G-d's dwelling and immanence in the created world. Date: Friday, July 11, 1997 9:11am Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 738871 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738864, Reply to #738858, Reply to #738854, R*) (1 reply) Agreed that they are precious. The issue isnt one of what they MEAN to God, so much as whether or not they are pleasing Him and following His wishes or not. God loves even the vilest sinner--we're it not so, there would be no redemption and no way for us to make it to Heaven. I heard it once said that "God would never condemn anyone." I believe that--because we condemn ourselves. It is OUR choice to follow or not. And that is where sin enters the picture. Personally, I'll go with what the Bible says. :) It answers a whole lot of questions as far as I can see, and I have never known it to be wrong yet. :) Date: Friday, July 11, 1997 9:31am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 738873 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738854, Reply to #738832, Reply to #738814, R*) (2 replies) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You obviously "assume" that I am neither sensativ VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>certain aspects of orthodox behavior because I ch VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>which now has a history of 5 generations of my fa VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>What I am finding somewhat hurtful is your insist VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>heritage while Kkid considers me to have already VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>both for being true to myself. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't insist on anything Steve. You make your cho VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>still entitled to make judgements based upon your ch VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I do not recall being on trial. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>You are quite right. You are not on trial. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>It was a hot headed thing for me to have written, written VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>passion of my feelings regarding the misogyny of the Ortho VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I have never diagreed with you that human interpretation of d VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>can be wrong. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>In the case of the pigeonholing of women within Orthodox Judaism VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>througly convinced that this is worse than wrong--it is a sin. VI>SF>VI>SF>Far be it from me to declare any action and/or thought a sin. VI>SF>VI>And why not? Isn't murder a sin? Just because you are gay doesn't VI>SF>VI>mean you have to endorse moral relativism. VI>SF>There is a difference between what is explicitely labeled by the Bible VI>SF>as sin and what humans choose to label as sin. VI>But this does violate the Bible. VI>Genesis 1: 26 provides: "G-d said, "Let us make man with our image and VI>likeness. Let him dominate the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, VI>the livestock animal, and all the earth--and every land animal that VI>walks the earth. G-d created man with His image. In the Image of G-d, VI>He created him, male and female. He created them." (Rabbi Kaplan's VI>translation, from "The Living Torah". VI>To my way of thinking this is the foundation stone of all Torah. VI>Nothing can violate it and constitute G-d's will. I see no sin indicated. Date: Friday, July 11, 1997 9:32am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 738874 To: Vida Re: ADVOCATE (Reply to #738855, Reply to #738835) (1 reply) VI>SF>You might want to check out the latest edition of the Advocate. There VI>SF>are a whole series of articles about gays and religion, including one VI>SF>about Judaism, with many of the gayjews members prominantly profiled. VI>Ok. I'll see if I can find it. But don't throw your issue out, just VI>in case I can't. Will do, but I am sure your usual haunts must carry the magazine. Date: Friday, July 11, 1997 9:34am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 738875 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738858, Reply to #738854, Reply to #738832, R*) (1 reply) SB>I have to agree, although not from a position of the Torah. It is a fact SB>that the Bible does speak out against homosexuality in all its forms. I SB>know I invite either fire or that tired old "The Bible was written by SB>man" argument, but as long as we are using Holy Scriptures, it is a fair SB>statement, in my opinion. For those of you who are curious, I invite you SB>to read Romans Chapter 1, specifically Verses 26-32. And no, in case SB>anyone wonders, i did not take them out of context. They speak SB>specifically about homosexuality, and so I noted them. As a Jew I am not bothered by those verses. Date: Friday, July 11, 1997 12:47pm Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 738876 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738873, Reply to #738854, Reply to #738832, R*) (2 replies) I think the sin comes into it because God created male AND female. Presumably, he did so for a reason. You may want to look at my post regarding Romans. Date: Friday, July 11, 1997 12:49pm Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 738877 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738875, Reply to #738858, Reply to #738854, R*) (2 replies) Then I suggest you disregard my post suggesting you look at Romans. :) I see you already have. But even as a Jew, can you afford to disregard ANYTHING written by God or His people? Isnt that the very thing you accuse others of being--narrow minded? Date: Friday, July 11, 1997 1:15pm Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 738878 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738877, Reply to #738875, Reply to #738858, R*) (1 reply) Guys..I just want you all to know that for the nonce, I am going to withdraw from this particular discussion. As Steve's rather curt reply showed me, I am not Jewish and therefore virtually anything I use as a basis for what I believe and why would be irrelevant to those of you who are. Thats not to say I wont discuss other things, but as for this particular subject, I think it better to let those of you who believe the same argue it out. Besides, it's getting kind of circular--one statement just leads to another, and another, and so on and so on. I'll keep checking, and when something else comes up, I'll be back. :) Date: Saturday, July 12, 1997 7:27am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738887 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738871, Reply to #738864, Reply to #738858, R*) SB>Agreed that they are precious. The issue isnt one of what they MEAN to SB>God, so much as whether or not they are pleasing Him and following His SB>wishes or not. God loves even the vilest sinner--we're it not so, there SB>would be no redemption and no way for us to make it to Heaven. I heard SB>it once said that "God would never condemn anyone." I believe SB>that--because we condemn ourselves. It is OUR choice to follow or not. SB>And that is where sin enters the picture. Personally, I'll go with what SB>the Bible says. :) It answers a whole lot of questions as far as I can SB>see, and I have never known it to be wrong yet. :) I don't believe that the Bible says that ANY form of commited loving is wrong. Even the harsest anti-homosexual statements in Levictus can be interpreted in various ways. Date: Saturday, July 12, 1997 7:30am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738888 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738873, Reply to #738854, Reply to #738832, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You obviously "assume" that I am neither sensa SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>certain aspects of orthodox behavior because I SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>which now has a history of 5 generations of my SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>What I am finding somewhat hurtful is your ins SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>heritage while Kkid considers me to have alrea SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>both for being true to myself. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't insist on anything Steve. You make your SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>still entitled to make judgements based upon your SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I do not recall being on trial. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>You are quite right. You are not on trial. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>It was a hot headed thing for me to have written, writt SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>passion of my feelings regarding the misogyny of the Or SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I have never diagreed with you that human interpretation o SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>can be wrong. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>In the case of the pigeonholing of women within Orthodox Juda SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>througly convinced that this is worse than wrong--it is a sin SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Far be it from me to declare any action and/or thought a sin. SF>VI>SF>VI>And why not? Isn't murder a sin? Just because you are gay doesn't SF>VI>SF>VI>mean you have to endorse moral relativism. SF>VI>SF>There is a difference between what is explicitely labeled by the Bible SF>VI>SF>as sin and what humans choose to label as sin. SF>VI>But this does violate the Bible. SF>VI>Genesis 1: 26 provides: "G-d said, "Let us make man with our image and SF>VI>likeness. Let him dominate the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, SF>VI>the livestock animal, and all the earth--and every land animal that SF>VI>walks the earth. G-d created man with His image. In the Image of G-d, SF>VI>He created him, male and female. He created them." (Rabbi Kaplan's SF>VI>translation, from "The Living Torah". SF>VI>To my way of thinking this is the foundation stone of all Torah. SF>VI>Nothing can violate it and constitute G-d's will. SF>I see no sin indicated. To disenfranchise HALF the Jewish people and to not even count them toward a minyan IS a sin. All people have the G-d given right to express themselves spirtually. G-d needs to hear ALL of our prayers. Date: Saturday, July 12, 1997 7:31am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738889 To: Steve Flur Re: ADVOCATE (Reply to #738874, Reply to #738855, Reply to #738835) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>You might want to check out the latest edition of the Advocate. There SF>VI>SF>are a whole series of articles about gays and religion, including one SF>VI>SF>about Judaism, with many of the gayjews members prominantly profiled. SF>VI>Ok. I'll see if I can find it. But don't throw your issue out, just SF>VI>in case I can't. SF>Will do, but I am sure your usual haunts must carry the magazine. Actually, I picked it up yesterday and read it. I wasn't very impressed with the issue. Thought it was kind of boring and shallow coverage. Date: Saturday, July 12, 1997 7:33am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738890 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738876, Reply to #738873, Reply to #738854, R*) SB>I think the sin comes into it because God created male AND female. SB>Presumably, he did so for a reason. You may want to look at my post SB>regarding Romans. Sam, you can't use Romans as a reference point when you speak to a Jewish person. We Jews don't recognize Romans or any of the other books of the New Testament as scripture. Date: Saturday, July 12, 1997 7:37am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738891 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738878, Reply to #738877, Reply to #738875, R*) (2 replies) SB>Guys..I just want you all to know that for the nonce, I am going to SB>withdraw from this particular discussion. As Steve's rather curt reply SB>showed me, I am not Jewish and therefore virtually anything I use as a SB>basis for what I believe and why would be irrelevant to those of you who SB>are. Thats not to say I wont discuss other things, but as for this SB>particular subject, I think it better to let those of you who believe SB>the same argue it out. Besides, it's getting kind of circular--one SB>statement just leads to another, and another, and so on and so on. I'll SB>keep checking, and when something else comes up, I'll be back. :) Please, please don't withdraw from this discussion!!!! I enjoy your insights and your input! I am sure that as a Christian you can find common ground to talk to a Jew. Just remember--when speaking to a Jewish person, your religion came from ours, not vice versus. The common ground is in what you call "The Old Testament". Where your religion diverges from ours is in what you call "The New Testament". Date: Saturday, July 12, 1997 9:59pm Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 738903 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738891, Reply to #738878, Reply to #738877, R*) (1 reply) Precisely. However, I dont feel that there is a common enough ground for me to continue in this particular discussion. Besides, as I said before, it's getting kind of old, and all it really seems to be is circular. It's unlikely anything is going to be resolved, and so I will wait for a discussion on which I am better qualified before I enter anything again. :) Thats all--no hard feelings or anything like that, just backing off for now. ---Sam Beckett Date: Saturday, July 12, 1997 10:17pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 738906 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738833, Reply to #738824, Reply to #738747, R*) (1 reply) SF>KK>Thanks for joining this thread but Steve and I seem to have a long SF>KK>history of misunderstanding. I'd really get worried if he starts SF>KK>understanding me :-) SF>Actually I fully understand you. Had you said you think you understand me I might have agreed with you, but as usual you have made a nonsensical statement. Date: Saturday, July 12, 1997 10:26pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 738907 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738834, Reply to #738825, Reply to #738763, R*) (2 replies) SF>KK>SF>Being new here, what you are unaware of is long previous interchanges SF>KK>SF>where we discussed our religious backgrounds and for anyone to dismiss SF>KK>SF>an entire life and relegate it to a single sex act is...disappointing SF>KK>SF>say the least. SF>KK>Steve, every once in a while I miss entirely the point you are trying to SF>KK>make. This is another such message. Are you telling Sam B that I am SF>KK>guilty of dismissing your entire life??? SF>KK>I know nothing about your ENTIRE life except what you share publicly on SF>KK>this bbs. SF>When you see being gay as only a question of wether or not anal SF>intercourse is a sin, yes you have dismissed everything else. Hmmm....I see you fully understand me. I can not help it that you are so involved with your sexuality that you feel that every conversation seems to deal with it. I guess you do not understand ANYTHING AT ALL about me. Again, I repeat something I said once before in a message, but a bit nicer this time as I seem to have offended you the other time. I do not care at all whether or not you are gay! I am simply stating that anal intercourse among men is a no no as far as the torah is concerned. If I would say that according to the Torah eating shell fish is a no no, then to you think Vida would get all angry at me and tell me how shallow or something I am because she likes shellfish? Date: Saturday, July 12, 1997 10:28pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 738908 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738853, Reply to #738824, Reply to #738747, R*) SB>KK>Thanks for joining this thread but Steve and I seem to have a long SB>KK>history of misunderstanding. I'd really get worried if he starts SB>KK>understanding me :-) SB> rried or scared? Isn't it illogical to continue debating with a person SB>when the purpose of the debate has been lost in time? Yep, that's what I said a while ago. Date: Saturday, July 12, 1997 10:34pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 738911 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738864, Reply to #738858, Reply to #738854, R*) (1 reply) VI>In my opinion, it is clear that the Bible can in no way outright VI>condemn homosexuality. G-d created g/l human beings. Since ALL humans VI>are created in the image of the divine this means that g/l people are VI>as precious to G-d as every other human people. Come on Vida! You may as well say there is no way G-d prohibited the eating of certain animal life as G-d created all the animals. The bible does not say that g/l people are not loved by G-d. Date: Sunday, July 13, 1997 7:26am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738915 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738903, Reply to #738891, Reply to #738878, R*) SB>Precisely. However, I dont feel that there is a common enough ground for SB>me to continue in this particular discussion. Besides, as I said before, SB>it's getting kind of old, and all it really seems to be is circular. SB>It's unlikely anything is going to be resolved, and so I will wait for a SB>discussion on which I am better qualified before I enter anything again. SB>:) Thats all--no hard feelings or anything like that, just backing off SB>for now. SB> ---Sam Beckett Sorry to hear that! Your input is very much appreciated, at least by me. :) Date: Sunday, July 13, 1997 7:29am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738916 To: Kkid Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738907, Reply to #738834, Reply to #738825, R*) (1 reply) KK>SF>KK>SF>Being new here, what you are unaware of is long previous interchang KK>SF>KK>SF>where we discussed our religious backgrounds and for anyone to dism KK>SF>KK>SF>an entire life and relegate it to a single sex act is...disappointi KK>SF>KK>SF>say the least. KK>SF>KK>Steve, every once in a while I miss entirely the point you are trying KK>SF>KK>make. This is another such message. Are you telling Sam B that I am KK>SF>KK>guilty of dismissing your entire life??? KK>SF>KK>I know nothing about your ENTIRE life except what you share publicly o KK>SF>KK>this bbs. KK>SF>When you see being gay as only a question of wether or not anal KK>SF>intercourse is a sin, yes you have dismissed everything else. KK>Hmmm....I see you fully understand me. I can not help it that you are so KK>involved with your sexuality that you feel that every conversation seems KK>to deal with it. I guess you do not understand ANYTHING AT ALL about me. KK>Again, I repeat something I said once before in a message, but a bit KK>nicer this time as I seem to have offended you the other time. I do not KK>care at all whether or not you are gay! I am simply stating that anal KK>intercourse among men is a no no as far as the torah is concerned. If I KK>would say that according to the Torah eating shell fish is a no no, then KK>to you think Vida would get all angry at me and tell me how shallow or KK>something I am because she likes shellfish? Actually, I know very well that eating shellfish is a no-no. The prohibition against eating shellfish is just a mitzvah, that for now, I am not able to observe. Notice the operative words...FOR NOW. Date: Sunday, July 13, 1997 7:33am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738917 To: Kkid Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738911, Reply to #738864, Reply to #738858, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>In my opinion, it is clear that the Bible can in no way outright KK>VI>condemn homosexuality. G-d created g/l human beings. Since ALL humans KK>VI>are created in the image of the divine this means that g/l people are KK>VI>as precious to G-d as every other human people. KK>Come on Vida! You may as well say there is no way G-d prohibited the KK>eating of certain animal life as G-d created all the animals. The bible KK>does not say that g/l people are not loved by G-d. I don't follow your logic. There is a vast difference between saying G-d prohits the eating of certain animals and G-d discriminates against any kind of people. I think clearly G-d loves all people equally. That is why I interpret the "anti gay" sections of Levictus differently than you do. Date: Sunday, July 13, 1997 4:01pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 738920 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738916, Reply to #738907, Reply to #738834, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>Hmmm....I see you fully understand me. I can not help it that you are so VI>KK>involved with your sexuality that you feel that every conversation seems VI>KK>to deal with it. I guess you do not understand ANYTHING AT ALL about me. VI>KK>Again, I repeat something I said once before in a message, but a bit VI>KK>nicer this time as I seem to have offended you the other time. I do not VI>KK>care at all whether or not you are gay! I am simply stating that anal VI>KK>intercourse among men is a no no as far as the torah is concerned. If I VI>KK>would say that according to the Torah eating shell fish is a no no, then VI>KK>to you think Vida would get all angry at me and tell me how shallow or VI>KK>something I am because she likes shellfish? VI>Actually, I know very well that eating shellfish is a no-no. The VI>prohibition against eating shellfish is just a mitzvah, that for now, I VI>am not able to observe. Notice the operative words...FOR NOW. I think I understand you. But you see, there are many Jews who would rationalize that there is nothing wrong with eating shellfish and that that is not what the Torah meant :-) Date: Sunday, July 13, 1997 4:08pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 738921 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738917, Reply to #738911, Reply to #738864, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>VI>In my opinion, it is clear that the Bible can in no way outright VI>KK>VI>condemn homosexuality. G-d created g/l human beings. Since ALL human VI>KK>VI>are created in the image of the divine this means that g/l people are VI>KK>VI>as precious to G-d as every other human people. VI>KK>Come on Vida! You may as well say there is no way G-d prohibited the VI>KK>eating of certain animal life as G-d created all the animals. The bible VI>KK>does not say that g/l people are not loved by G-d. VI>I don't follow your logic. There is a vast difference between saying VI>G-d prohits the eating of certain animals and G-d discriminates against VI>any kind of people. VI>I think clearly G-d loves all people equally. That is why I interpret VI>the "anti gay" sections of Levictus differently than you do. The orthodox view is not that there is no discrimination involved. What is prohibited in Leviticus is the specific sex act. You once posted a well written message where the Rabbi outlined that the homosexual is as Jewish as any other individual. Obviously it is quite difficult for Steve, not for me, to separate the individual from the act. I do not know the psychology involved in wanting to have intercourse with another man. Perhaps it is pure hedonism? But whatever it is, if it is a sin then it is like any other sin that has to be worked on to be controlled. And yes, a person who is "addicted" to something (for lack of a better word) would find it quite difficult to stop that behavior. Date: Sunday, July 13, 1997 4:39pm Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 738923 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738891, Reply to #738878, Reply to #738877, R*) (1 reply) VI>SB>Guys..I just want you all to know that for the nonce, I am going to VI>SB>withdraw from this particular discussion. As Steve's rather curt reply VI>SB>showed me, I am not Jewish and therefore virtually anything I use as a VI>SB>basis for what I believe and why would be irrelevant to those of you who VI>SB>are. Thats not to say I wont discuss other things, but as for this VI>SB>particular subject, I think it better to let those of you who believe VI>SB>the same argue it out. Besides, it's getting kind of circular--one VI>SB>statement just leads to another, and another, and so on and so on. I'll VI>SB>keep checking, and when something else comes up, I'll be back. :) VI>Please, please don't withdraw from this discussion!!!! I enjoy your VI>insights and your input! VI>I am sure that as a Christian you can find common ground to talk to a VI>Jew. Just remember--when speaking to a Jewish person, your religion VI>came from ours, not vice versus. The common ground is in what you call VI>"The Old Testament". Where your religion diverges from ours is in what VI>you call "The New Testament". Unfortunately, even as a Christian I cannot find sufficient ground to continue this discussion, as my BEING a Christians necessitates that I draw on the teachings of Christ to lend authority to my words/reasons. And as for my religion coming from yours, when last I knew, we both served God. The main difference I see is that the Jewish faith is and always has been so concerned with rules, laws and regulations that they have lost the joy that many Christians feel in serving God. Since the Orthodox faith does not accept the New Testament(you'll forgive my not using quotes, I trust), that virtually eliminates any ability I have to cite reasons for why I believe as I do, as many of the Old Testament teachings were redone/refuted by Christ when He was on earth. Like I said before, when you exhaust this argument and move on to something else, I'll be here. Until then, God bless and stay safe, ok? :) Date: Sunday, July 13, 1997 7:13pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738929 To: Kkid Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738920, Reply to #738916, Reply to #738907, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>KK>Hmmm....I see you fully understand me. I can not help it that you are KK>VI>KK>involved with your sexuality that you feel that every conversation see KK>VI>KK>to deal with it. I guess you do not understand ANYTHING AT ALL about m KK>VI>KK>Again, I repeat something I said once before in a message, but a bit KK>VI>KK>nicer this time as I seem to have offended you the other time. I do no KK>VI>KK>care at all whether or not you are gay! I am simply stating that anal KK>VI>KK>intercourse among men is a no no as far as the torah is concerned. If KK>VI>KK>would say that according to the Torah eating shell fish is a no no, th KK>VI>KK>to you think Vida would get all angry at me and tell me how shallow or KK>VI>KK>something I am because she likes shellfish? KK>VI>Actually, I know very well that eating shellfish is a no-no. The KK>VI>prohibition against eating shellfish is just a mitzvah, that for now, I KK>VI>am not able to observe. Notice the operative words...FOR NOW. KK>I think I understand you. KK>But you see, there are many Jews who would rationalize that there is KK>nothing wrong with eating shellfish and that that is not what the Torah KK>meant :-) I don't know of any who say that. And I travel in very, very liberal Jewish circles. The Reform movements says that the Torah gives guidelines, not commandments--a slightly different perspective from what you are saying. Date: Sunday, July 13, 1997 7:24pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738930 To: Kkid Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738921, Reply to #738917, Reply to #738911, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>KK>VI>In my opinion, it is clear that the Bible can in no way outright KK>VI>KK>VI>condemn homosexuality. G-d created g/l human beings. Since ALL hu KK>VI>KK>VI>are created in the image of the divine this means that g/l people a KK>VI>KK>VI>as precious to G-d as every other human people. KK>VI>KK>Come on Vida! You may as well say there is no way G-d prohibited the KK>VI>KK>eating of certain animal life as G-d created all the animals. The bibl KK>VI>KK>does not say that g/l people are not loved by G-d. KK>VI>I don't follow your logic. There is a vast difference between saying KK>VI>G-d prohits the eating of certain animals and G-d discriminates against KK>VI>any kind of people. KK>VI>I think clearly G-d loves all people equally. That is why I interpret KK>VI>the "anti gay" sections of Levictus differently than you do. KK>The orthodox view is not that there is no discrimination involved. What KK>is prohibited in Leviticus is the specific sex act. You once posted a KK>well written message where the Rabbi outlined that the homosexual is as KK>Jewish as any other individual. Obviously it is quite difficult for KK>Steve, not for me, to separate the individual from the act. I do not KK>know the psychology involved in wanting to have intercourse with another KK>man. Perhaps it is pure hedonism? But whatever it is, if it is a sin KK>then it is like any other sin that has to be worked on to be controlled. KK>And yes, a person who is "addicted" to something (for lack of a better KK>word) would find it quite difficult to stop that behavior. I don't think that Steve's sexuality is any more hedonistic than any married heterosexual. I also disagree that the Levictus sets forth that gay male sex is a sin. But frankly the sections in Levictus regarding male homosexuality really don't concern me very much. However, there are other sections of Levictus that caused me great mental and emotional anguish when I worked my way through Levictus this year. I am referring to all the sections that compare menstruation to leprosy and that set forth the laws concerning "marital purity". While I can visualize myself keeping kosher and observing Shabbos I can NOT imagine myself taking on the mitzvah of niddah! Date: Sunday, July 13, 1997 7:36pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738931 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738923, Reply to #738891, Reply to #738878, R*) (1 reply) SB>VI>SB>Guys..I just want you all to know that for the nonce, I am going to SB>VI>SB>withdraw from this particular discussion. As Steve's rather curt reply SB>VI>SB>showed me, I am not Jewish and therefore virtually anything I use as a SB>VI>SB>basis for what I believe and why would be irrelevant to those of you w SB>VI>SB>are. Thats not to say I wont discuss other things, but as for this SB>VI>SB>particular subject, I think it better to let those of you who believe SB>VI>SB>the same argue it out. Besides, it's getting kind of circular--one SB>VI>SB>statement just leads to another, and another, and so on and so on. I'l SB>VI>SB>keep checking, and when something else comes up, I'll be back. :) SB>VI>Please, please don't withdraw from this discussion!!!! I enjoy your SB>VI>insights and your input! SB>VI>I am sure that as a Christian you can find common ground to talk to a SB>VI>Jew. Just remember--when speaking to a Jewish person, your religion SB>VI>came from ours, not vice versus. The common ground is in what you call SB>VI>"The Old Testament". Where your religion diverges from ours is in what SB>VI>you call "The New Testament". SB>Unfortunately, even as a Christian I cannot find sufficient ground to SB>continue this discussion, as my BEING a Christians necessitates that I SB>draw on the teachings of Christ to lend authority to my words/reasons. SB>And as for my religion coming from yours, when last I knew, we both SB>served God. The main difference I see is that the Jewish faith is and SB>always has been so concerned with rules, laws and regulations that they SB>have lost the joy that many Christians feel in serving God. Since the SB>Orthodox faith does not accept the New Testament(you'll forgive my not SB>using quotes, I trust), that virtually eliminates any ability I have to SB>cite reasons for why I believe as I do, as many of the Old Testament SB>teachings were redone/refuted by Christ when He was on earth. Like I SB>said before, when you exhaust this argument and move on to something SB>else, I'll be here. Until then, God bless and stay safe, ok? :) It is not just the Orthodox faith that does not accept the New Testament, it is the entire Jewish religion. But actually from my reading of the New Testament everything in it--with the exception of the divinity of Jesus--is really nothing more than what we Jews call midrash--meaning teachings explaining BUT NEVER REFUTING OR REBUTING the Jewish Bible. I totally disagree with your statement that the Jewish religion has always been concerned with serving rules, laws, regualtions that it has lost joy. If you would go to a Chassidic service--or a "neo-Chassidic" service such as we have in my synagogue BJ you would see tremendous outpourings of joy! Date: Monday, July 14, 1997 12:52pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 738937 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738876, Reply to #738873, Reply to #738854, R*) (2 replies) SB>I think the sin comes into it because God created male AND female. SB>Presumably, he did so for a reason. You may want to look at my post SB>regarding Romans. G-d also created lesbians, gay men, bisexuals, trangenders, etc. Date: Monday, July 14, 1997 12:54pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 738938 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738877, Reply to #738875, Reply to #738858, R*) (1 reply) SB>Then I suggest you disregard my post suggesting you look at Romans. :) I SB>see you already have. But even as a Jew, can you afford to disregard SB>ANYTHING written by God or His people? Isnt that the very thing you SB>accuse others of being--narrow minded? Narrow minded means to take every word literally, something that is not basic to Judaism. Jews have never practiced, let's say, an eye for an eye literally. Date: Monday, July 14, 1997 12:56pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 738939 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738888, Reply to #738873, Reply to #738854, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You obviously "assume" that I am neither se VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>certain aspects of orthodox behavior becaus VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>which now has a history of 5 generations of VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>What I am finding somewhat hurtful is your VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>heritage while Kkid considers me to have al VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>both for being true to myself. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't insist on anything Steve. You make yo VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>still entitled to make judgements based upon y VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I do not recall being on trial. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>You are quite right. You are not on trial. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>It was a hot headed thing for me to have written, wr VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>passion of my feelings regarding the misogyny of the VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I have never diagreed with you that human interpretatio VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>can be wrong. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>In the case of the pigeonholing of women within Orthodox J VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>througly convinced that this is worse than wrong--it is a VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Far be it from me to declare any action and/or thought a sin. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>And why not? Isn't murder a sin? Just because you are gay does VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>mean you have to endorse moral relativism. VI>SF>VI>SF>There is a difference between what is explicitely labeled by the Bi VI>SF>VI>SF>as sin and what humans choose to label as sin. VI>SF>VI>But this does violate the Bible. VI>SF>VI>Genesis 1: 26 provides: "G-d said, "Let us make man with our image and VI>SF>VI>likeness. Let him dominate the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, VI>SF>VI>the livestock animal, and all the earth--and every land animal that VI>SF>VI>walks the earth. G-d created man with His image. In the Image of G-d VI>SF>VI>He created him, male and female. He created them." (Rabbi Kaplan's VI>SF>VI>translation, from "The Living Torah". VI>SF>VI>To my way of thinking this is the foundation stone of all Torah. VI>SF>VI>Nothing can violate it and constitute G-d's will. VI>SF>I see no sin indicated. VI>To disenfranchise HALF the Jewish people and to not even count them VI>toward a minyan IS a sin. All people have the G-d given right to VI>express themselves spirtually. G-d needs to hear ALL of our prayers. You are mixing in too many diverse issues. Date: Monday, July 14, 1997 12:56pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 738940 To: Vida Re: ADVOCATE (Reply to #738889, Reply to #738874, Reply to #738855, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>You might want to check out the latest edition of the Advocate. The VI>SF>VI>SF>are a whole series of articles about gays and religion, including o VI>SF>VI>SF>about Judaism, with many of the gayjews members prominantly profile VI>SF>VI>Ok. I'll see if I can find it. But don't throw your issue out, just VI>SF>VI>in case I can't. VI>SF>Will do, but I am sure your usual haunts must carry the magazine. VI>Actually, I picked it up yesterday and read it. I wasn't very VI>impressed with the issue. Thought it was kind of boring and shallow VI>coverage. What do you expect from a glossy news magazine. Date: Monday, July 14, 1997 12:58pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 738941 To: Kkid Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738906, Reply to #738833, Reply to #738824, R*) (1 reply) KK>SF>KK>Thanks for joining this thread but Steve and I seem to have a long KK>SF>KK>history of misunderstanding. I'd really get worried if he starts KK>SF>KK>understanding me :-) KK>SF>Actually I fully understand you. KK>Had you said you think you understand me I might have agreed with you, KK>but as usual you have made a nonsensical statement. Being judgemental again are we? Date: Monday, July 14, 1997 12:59pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 738942 To: Kkid Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738907, Reply to #738834, Reply to #738825, R*) (1 reply) KK>SF>KK>SF>Being new here, what you are unaware of is long previous interchang KK>SF>KK>SF>where we discussed our religious backgrounds and for anyone to dism KK>SF>KK>SF>an entire life and relegate it to a single sex act is...disappointi KK>SF>KK>SF>say the least. KK>SF>KK>Steve, every once in a while I miss entirely the point you are trying KK>SF>KK>make. This is another such message. Are you telling Sam B that I am KK>SF>KK>guilty of dismissing your entire life??? KK>SF>KK>I know nothing about your ENTIRE life except what you share publicly o KK>SF>KK>this bbs. KK>SF>When you see being gay as only a question of wether or not anal KK>SF>intercourse is a sin, yes you have dismissed everything else. KK>Hmmm....I see you fully understand me. I can not help it that you are so KK>involved with your sexuality that you feel that every conversation seems KK>to deal with it. I guess you do not understand ANYTHING AT ALL about me. KK>Again, I repeat something I said once before in a message, but a bit KK>nicer this time as I seem to have offended you the other time. I do not KK>care at all whether or not you are gay! I am simply stating that anal KK>intercourse among men is a no no as far as the torah is concerned. If I KK>would say that according to the Torah eating shell fish is a no no, then KK>to you think Vida would get all angry at me and tell me how shallow or KK>something I am because she likes shellfish? Maybe I am simply because people like you are so busy telling me that G-d created me to sin. Date: Monday, July 14, 1997 4:39pm Forum: Theology From: Steve C Msg#: 738962 To: ** ALL ** Re: Jewish Communion (1 reply) A while ago, a discussion was raised on wether or not a Catholic Priest would Knowingly give Communion to a non Catholic. I now know the definitive answer :) At my friends wedding this past Saturday the priest came over to the Bridal Party to administer Communion. Upon reaching the 2 Jewish members of our party, The priest said a prayer over them instead of giving them Communion. On a lighter note, the brother of one of them, thinking his brother had recieved, came up to recieve.The priest not knowing his religion gave it to him. Of course this led to much ribbing afterward that he was now a Catholic because of his actions. We later explained to him that sense he does not believe in the teachings of the Catholics, the host, to him at least , was just a piece of bread. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ "I'm not bad. I'm just drawn that way." - Jessica Rabbit Date: Monday, July 14, 1997 4:45pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 738964 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738929, Reply to #738920, Reply to #738916, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>I think I understand you. VI>KK>But you see, there are many Jews who would rationalize that there is VI>KK>nothing wrong with eating shellfish and that that is not what the Torah VI>KK>meant :-) VI>I don't know of any who say that. And I travel in very, very liberal VI>Jewish circles. The Reform movements says that the Torah gives VI>guidelines, not commandments--a slightly different perspective from VI>what you are saying. Aren't there some who say that the laws of Kashruth were meant for a time when the Jews were in the desert and no longer make any sense? Date: Monday, July 14, 1997 4:50pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 738965 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738930, Reply to #738921, Reply to #738917, R*) (1 reply) VI>But frankly the sections in Levictus regarding male homosexuality VI>really don't concern me very much. VI>However, there are other sections of Levictus that caused me great VI>mental and emotional anguish when I worked my way through Levictus this VI>year. I am referring to all the sections that compare menstruation to VI>leprosy and that set forth the laws concerning "marital purity". VI>While I can visualize myself keeping kosher and observing Shabbos I can VI>NOT imagine myself taking on the mitzvah of niddah! The laws of Niddah are the cornerstone of Jewish family purity. Do you happen to know the Conservative view on this? Does Conservative law require women to follow the laws of niddah and go to the mikvah? Date: Monday, July 14, 1997 4:52pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 738966 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738937, Reply to #738876, Reply to #738873, R*) (1 reply) SF>SB>I think the sin comes into it because God created male AND female. SF>SB>Presumably, he did so for a reason. You may want to look at my post SF>SB>regarding Romans. SF>G-d also created lesbians, gay men, bisexuals, trangenders, etc. And don't forget pedophiles and individuals into bestiality. Date: Monday, July 14, 1997 4:54pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 738967 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738941, Reply to #738906, Reply to #738833, R*) SF>KK>SF>KK>Thanks for joining this thread but Steve and I seem to have a long SF>KK>SF>KK>history of misunderstanding. I'd really get worried if he starts SF>KK>SF>KK>understanding me :-) SF>KK>SF>Actually I fully understand you. SF>KK>Had you said you think you understand me I might have agreed with you, SF>KK>but as usual you have made a nonsensical statement. SF>Being judgemental again are we? About as judgemental as we. Date: Monday, July 14, 1997 4:55pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 738968 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738942, Reply to #738907, Reply to #738834, R*) (1 reply) SF>Maybe I am simply because people like you are so busy telling me that SF>G-d created me to sin. I love your cryptic messages! Date: Monday, July 14, 1997 5:39pm Forum: Theology From: Rand Msg#: 738975 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738864, Reply to #738858, Reply to #738854, R*) (1 reply) In a message dated 07-10-97 Vida wrote to Sam Beckett: V> In my opinion, it is clear that the Bible can in no way outright V> condemn homosexuality. G-d created g/l human beings. Since ALL humans V> are created in the image of the divine this means that g/l people are V> as precious to G-d as every other human people. He also created individuals with extra Y chromosomes, who tend to be more violent, yet as you point out, murder is a sin. Regardless of whether something is "natural," or if people have inborn tendencies (which, incidentally, I believe homosexuality to be), the Bible could quite easily ban the conduct. The people are as precious to G-d, but the act may still be a sin, n'est pas? TANSTAAFL, Rand --- * TIMM 1.3 * There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. Date: Monday, July 14, 1997 9:18pm Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 738982 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738931, Reply to #738923, Reply to #738891, R*) Like I said...speaking about things I know nothing about. :) Date: Monday, July 14, 1997 9:22pm Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 738983 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738937, Reply to #738876, Reply to #738873, R*) (2 replies) SF>SB>I think the sin comes into it because God created male AND female. SF>SB>Presumably, he did so for a reason. You may want to look at my post SF>SB>regarding Romans. SF>G-d also created lesbians, gay men, bisexuals, trangenders, etc. No. GOD(you will forgive my spelling His name out, I trust) created PEOPLE. Saying He created lesbians, homosexuals, etc, is like saying He created rapists, drunks, and any other variety of person you can name. WE decide what we do, and why we do it. I consider that argument as without veracity as the saying by someone that "They are a man/woman in a woman's/man's body", as though insinuating that God was looking the other way when they came through and He created them..like it is His doing that they are like that. And that is utter nonsense, pure and simple. If nothing else, God, being perfect, doesn't lie. How then, could He say that homosexuality/lesbianism is an abomination to Him if He created them that way? It wouldnt be fair. However, since I am comiong from the aspect of the Christian Bible, I realize that my argument has no veracity to you, so please, leave me out of it for now. When you respond, I am obligated by courtesy to do the same, and i really do not care to any longer. Arguments that can be refuted simply by saying "I dont believe the same thing you do" are pointless..I spent 4 years doing that with my now EX-fiancee, and I wont do it here any longer. I'll come back for another discussion in the future. :) Sam Beckett Date: Monday, July 14, 1997 9:22pm Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 738984 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738938, Reply to #738877, Reply to #738875, R*) (1 reply) >SB>Then I suggest you disregard my post suggesting you look at Romans. :) I SF>SB>see you already have. But even as a Jew, can you afford to disregard SF>SB>ANYTHING written by God or His people? Isnt that the very thing you SF>SB>accuse others of being--narrow minded? SF>Narrow minded means to take every word literally, something that is not SF>basic to Judaism. Jews have never practiced, let's say, an eye for an SF>eye literally. Nor did I say that Jews were narrow minded. Everyone isnt out to persecute you, you know. Date: Monday, July 14, 1997 10:34pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738993 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738939, Reply to #738888, Reply to #738873, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You obviously "assume" that I am neither SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>certain aspects of orthodox behavior bec SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>which now has a history of 5 generations SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>What I am finding somewhat hurtful is yo SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>heritage while Kkid considers me to have SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>both for being true to myself. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't insist on anything Steve. You make SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>still entitled to make judgements based upo SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I do not recall being on trial. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>You are quite right. You are not on trial. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>It was a hot headed thing for me to have written, SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>passion of my feelings regarding the misogyny of SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I have never diagreed with you that human interpreta SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>can be wrong. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>In the case of the pigeonholing of women within Orthodo SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>througly convinced that this is worse than wrong--it is SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Far be it from me to declare any action and/or thought a s SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>And why not? Isn't murder a sin? Just because you are gay d SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>mean you have to endorse moral relativism. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>There is a difference between what is explicitely labeled by the SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>as sin and what humans choose to label as sin. SF>VI>SF>VI>But this does violate the Bible. SF>VI>SF>VI>Genesis 1: 26 provides: "G-d said, "Let us make man with our image SF>VI>SF>VI>likeness. Let him dominate the fish of the sea, the birds of the s SF>VI>SF>VI>the livestock animal, and all the earth--and every land animal that SF>VI>SF>VI>walks the earth. G-d created man with His image. In the Image of SF>VI>SF>VI>He created him, male and female. He created them." (Rabbi Kaplan' SF>VI>SF>VI>translation, from "The Living Torah". SF>VI>SF>VI>To my way of thinking this is the foundation stone of all Torah. SF>VI>SF>VI>Nothing can violate it and constitute G-d's will. SF>VI>SF>I see no sin indicated. SF>VI>To disenfranchise HALF the Jewish people and to not even count them SF>VI>toward a minyan IS a sin. All people have the G-d given right to SF>VI>express themselves spirtually. G-d needs to hear ALL of our prayers. SF>You are mixing in too many diverse issues. And I think you are evading and avoiding the issue--because it is impossible for you to justify or rationalize the second class treatment of women in traditional Judaism. Date: Monday, July 14, 1997 10:35pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738994 To: Steve Flur Re: ADVOCATE (Reply to #738940, Reply to #738889, Reply to #738874, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You might want to check out the latest edition of the Advocate. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>are a whole series of articles about gays and religion, includin SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>about Judaism, with many of the gayjews members prominantly prof SF>VI>SF>VI>Ok. I'll see if I can find it. But don't throw your issue out, ju SF>VI>SF>VI>in case I can't. SF>VI>SF>Will do, but I am sure your usual haunts must carry the magazine. SF>VI>Actually, I picked it up yesterday and read it. I wasn't very SF>VI>impressed with the issue. Thought it was kind of boring and shallow SF>VI>coverage. SF>What do you expect from a glossy news magazine. From "The Advocate", I don't expect much. Date: Monday, July 14, 1997 10:40pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738995 To: Steve C Re: Jewish Communion (Reply to #738962) (2 replies) SC>A while ago, a discussion was raised on wether or not a Catholic Priest SC>would Knowingly give Communion to a non Catholic. I now know the SC>definitive answer :) SC>At my friends wedding this past Saturday the priest came over to the SC>Bridal Party to administer Communion. Upon reaching the 2 Jewish members SC>of our party, The priest said a prayer over them instead of giving them SC>Communion. On a lighter note, the brother of one of them, thinking his SC>brother had recieved, came up to recieve.The priest not knowing his SC>religion gave it to him. Of course this led to much ribbing afterward SC>that he was now a Catholic because of his actions. We later explained SC>to him that sense he does not believe in the teachings of the Catholics, SC>the host, to him at least , was just a piece of bread. SC>--- Reminds me of the story with my maternal grandfather. Years and years ago, when my grandfather was a young man he almost drowned while swimming at Coney Island. They took him to St. Vincent's Hospital, unconcious and in critical condition. The priest administered the last rites of the church to him. When he recovered the nurse/nuns were all apologized to him when they found out he was Jewish. He told him it was ok, and that while he was in critical condition ALL prayers were greatly appreciated. :) Date: Monday, July 14, 1997 10:49pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738996 To: Kkid Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738964, Reply to #738929, Reply to #738920, R*) KK>VI>KK>I think I understand you. KK>VI>KK>But you see, there are many Jews who would rationalize that there is KK>VI>KK>nothing wrong with eating shellfish and that that is not what the Tora KK>VI>KK>meant :-) KK>VI>I don't know of any who say that. And I travel in very, very liberal KK>VI>Jewish circles. The Reform movements says that the Torah gives KK>VI>guidelines, not commandments--a slightly different perspective from KK>VI>what you are saying. KK>Aren't there some who say that the laws of Kashruth were meant for a time KK>when the Jews were in the desert and no longer make any sense? Originally, yes. But the Reform movement has undergone a lot of changes and transformations. In the 1950's and early 1960's you had what is now called "Classic Reform"--no Bar Mitzvahs (Confirmations instead), no yamulkes, no tallits, and kosher was a looked down upon. Now, the Reform movement has been restoring many of the traditional practices--they restored the Bar Mitzvah ceremony (although many congregrations also have confirmations), you will see yamulkes and tallits as well. With regard to kosher, Reform is more likely to say that the laws of Kashruth are an important part of the Jewish tradition and that a Reform Jew can either follow the laws of kashruth or not, depending on the conscience of the Reform Jew. Mind you I am not a spokesperson for Reform Judaism. Not to put down another movement but I find the Reform siddur "Gates of Prayer" to be "siddur lite", if you understand what I mean. Date: Monday, July 14, 1997 11:01pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738997 To: Kkid Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738965, Reply to #738930, Reply to #738921, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>But frankly the sections in Levictus regarding male homosexuality KK>VI>really don't concern me very much. KK>VI>However, there are other sections of Levictus that caused me great KK>VI>mental and emotional anguish when I worked my way through Levictus this KK>VI>year. I am referring to all the sections that compare menstruation to KK>VI>leprosy and that set forth the laws concerning "marital purity". KK>VI>While I can visualize myself keeping kosher and observing Shabbos I can KK>VI>NOT imagine myself taking on the mitzvah of niddah! KK>The laws of Niddah are the cornerstone of Jewish family purity. KK>Do you happen to know the Conservative view on this? KK>Does Conservative law require women to follow the laws of niddah and go KK>to the mikvah? Good question. I honestly don't know the answer. I would tend to say that the Conservative movement does NOT require women to follow the laws of niddah or go to the mikvah. But that is only a guess on my part. You might be interested to know that the Orthodox synagogue in Brooklyn Heights is now in the process of fund raising so that they can build a mikvah in their synagogue. There was an article about this in the local free give away newspaper. What I thought was interesting was that the article was saying that the mikvah would be made available to ALL Jews in the neighborhood and that the Orthodox congregration was specifically outreaching to the Reform congregraion and the Conservative congregration in the neighborhood for fundraising neighborhood. But I was happy to see at least a small sign of Jewish unity in this article. Now mind you Brooklyn Heights is a very goyish neighborhood. The Jews in the neighborhood are overwhelming nonOrthodox. The article also had a quote from the Conservative rabbi that he was happy that the Orthodox congregration was undertaking this effort and that there were many women in his congregration who would take advantage of the mikvah. Date: Monday, July 14, 1997 11:05pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 738998 To: Rand Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738975, Reply to #738864, Reply to #738858, R*) (1 reply) RA>In a message dated 07-10-97 Vida wrote to Sam Beckett: RA>V> In my opinion, it is clear that the Bible can in no way outright RA>V> condemn homosexuality. G-d created g/l human beings. Since ALL humans RA>V> are created in the image of the divine this means that g/l people are RA>V> as precious to G-d as every other human people. RA>He also created individuals with extra Y chromosomes, who tend to be more RA>violent, yet as you point out, murder is a sin. Regardless of whether RA>something is "natural," or if people have inborn tendencies (which, RA>incidentally, I believe homosexuality to be), the Bible could quite easily b RA>the conduct. RA>The people are as precious to G-d, but the act may still be a sin, n'est pas There's a mile of a difference between born with an extra Y chromosome and being born a g/l person. And in any event, I do not believe that g/l sexuality is a sin. Date: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 8:34am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739004 To: Kkid Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738966, Reply to #738937, Reply to #738876, R*) (1 reply) KK>SF>SB>I think the sin comes into it because God created male AND female. KK>SF>SB>Presumably, he did so for a reason. You may want to look at my post KK>SF>SB>regarding Romans. KK>SF>G-d also created lesbians, gay men, bisexuals, trangenders, etc. KK>And don't forget pedophiles and individuals into bestiality. When all else fails its time to compare gays and lesbians to actions that the majority of all orientations find both illegal and immoral. Date: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 8:37am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739005 To: Kkid Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738968, Reply to #738942, Reply to #738907, R*) (1 reply) KK>SF>Maybe I am simply because people like you are so busy telling me that KK>SF>G-d created me to sin. KK>I love your cryptic messages! Nothing cryptic at all. I am in private e-mail correspondence with a number of younger individuals from a list called frumgays who are struggling with being both gay and orthodox and one of their greatest fears is being found out by "judgemental" members of "our" community. Date: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 8:39am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739006 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738983, Reply to #738937, Reply to #738876, R*) (2 replies) SB>SF>SB>I think the sin comes into it because God created male AND female. SB>SF>SB>Presumably, he did so for a reason. You may want to look at my post SB>SF>SB>regarding Romans. SB>SF>G-d also created lesbians, gay men, bisexuals, trangenders, etc. SB>No. GOD(you will forgive my spelling His name out, I trust) created SB>PEOPLE. Saying He created lesbians, homosexuals, etc, is like saying He SB>created rapists, drunks, and any other variety of person you can name. SB>WE decide what we do, and why we do it. I consider that argument as SB>without veracity as the saying by someone that "They are a man/woman in SB>a woman's/man's body", as though insinuating that God was looking the SB>other way when they came through and He created them..like it is His SB>doing that they are like that. And that is utter nonsense, pure and SB>simple. If nothing else, God, being perfect, doesn't lie. How then, SB>could He say that homosexuality/lesbianism is an abomination to Him if SB>He created them that way? It wouldnt be fair. However, since I am SB>comiong from the aspect of the Christian Bible, I realize that my SB>argument has no veracity to you, so please, leave me out of it for now. SB>When you respond, I am obligated by courtesy to do the same, and i SB>really do not care to any longer. Arguments that can be refuted simply SB>by saying "I dont believe the same thing you do" are pointless..I spent SB>4 years doing that with my now EX-fiancee, and I wont do it here any SB>longer. I'll come back for another discussion in the future. :) SB> Sam Beckett Its unfortunate that you choose to compare gays and lesbians to rapists and drunks. Date: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 8:40am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739007 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738984, Reply to #738938, Reply to #738877, R*) SB>>SB>Then I suggest you disregard my post suggesting you look at Romans. :) I SB>SF>SB>see you already have. But even as a Jew, can you afford to disregard SB>SF>SB>ANYTHING written by God or His people? Isnt that the very thing you SB>SF>SB>accuse others of being--narrow minded? SB>SF>Narrow minded means to take every word literally, something that is not SB>SF>basic to Judaism. Jews have never practiced, let's say, an eye for an SB>SF>eye literally. SB>Nor did I say that Jews were narrow minded. Everyone isnt out to SB>persecute you, you know. I never thought nor said that. Date: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 8:42am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739008 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738993, Reply to #738939, Reply to #738888, R*) (2 replies) I do not disagree with you that established practices have not been equatible to women, however, I will not play G-d nor his/her spokeperson by labeling what I do not agree with as a sin. Date: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 8:43am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739009 To: Vida Re: ADVOCATE (Reply to #738994, Reply to #738940, Reply to #738889, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You might want to check out the latest edition of the Advocat VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>are a whole series of articles about gays and religion, inclu VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>about Judaism, with many of the gayjews members prominantly p VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Ok. I'll see if I can find it. But don't throw your issue out, VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>in case I can't. VI>SF>VI>SF>Will do, but I am sure your usual haunts must carry the magazine. VI>SF>VI>Actually, I picked it up yesterday and read it. I wasn't very VI>SF>VI>impressed with the issue. Thought it was kind of boring and shallow VI>SF>VI>coverage. VI>SF>What do you expect from a glossy news magazine. VI>From "The Advocate", I don't expect much. At least, however, the story is getting national exposure. Date: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 9:22am Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 739016 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739006, Reply to #738983, Reply to #738937, R*) (1 reply) You know, I was going to sidestep this, but decided not to. Steve, you remind me very much of a homosexual I knew in my English class in college. We were discussing homosexuality in class one day, and I gave my opinions on the subject, and in the course of doing so, used the word "lifestyle." He totally IGNORED everything else I had said, and concentrated on the fact that I used the word lifestyle. You say it is unfortunate that I compare lesbians and homosexuals to drunks and rapists. I say it is unfortunate that you, like so many other people who are convinced that they are being persecuted, IGNORE what is said and instead read what you choose into it. Go back and read my post again, indeed, ANYONE reading this go back and read my post again. NOWHERE do I infer that lesbians and homosexuals are on the same level as drunks and rapists. Instead, I state, if you bother to read it, thta that is the same as saying he created "drunks, rapists, and EVERY OTHER VARIETY OF PERSON." You chose to look at that one part and ignore everything else that was said. You say I am unfortunate? No, my friend, I say it is YOU that is unfortunate--unfortunate that you are so narrowly visioned that anyone who expresses a difference is instantly an attacker. Theguy in English was, too, except to him, anyone who disagreed with him was a homophobe--I hate to tell you this, but nothing can be further from the truth. Go back and read my post again, and this time, try it with a n open mind. Date: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 10:18am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739022 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739016, Reply to #739006, Reply to #738983, R*) (2 replies) I am not questioning your religious beliefs about homosexuality, just expressing my feelings when I see my life(not lifestyle) compared, even if innocently to drunks and rapist. You could have compared me to republicans, democrates, baseball fans, etc. Date: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 2:00pm Forum: Theology From: Steve C Msg#: 739028 To: Vida Re: Jewish Communion (Reply to #738995, Reply to #738962) (2 replies) VI>Reminds me of the story with my maternal grandfather. VI>Years and years ago, when my grandfather was a young man he almost VI>drowned while swimming at Coney Island. They took him to St. Vincent's VI>Hospital, unconcious and in critical condition. The priest VI>administered the last rites of the church to him. When he recovered VI>the nurse/nuns were all apologized to him when they found out he was VI>Jewish. He told him it was ok, and that while he was in critical VI>condition ALL prayers were greatly appreciated. :) True. It was done with concern for his well being, so it can't hurt. :) --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Honk if you've slept with Commander Riker! Date: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 3:55pm Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 739036 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739022, Reply to #739016, Reply to #739006, R*) (1 reply) And yet again, you completely ignored all that I was saying and concentrated on that one facet of my answer. In any event, this is pointless. I am suspect of your motives for continuing this tired, dead horse debate on whether or not YOU are ok with being a homosexual as fat r as the Jews are concerned. My question is this:If you are OK with being one, who gives a DAMN what the Jews or anyone else thinks? If you have settled it within your heart with God, or whatever it is you call Him, why do you argue it with mere mortals? When I studied parapsychology at one time, many in my church thought it was wrong. You know what my answer was? "Well, when He tells me it is, I'll stop." Why is it that you continue to inflame passions within people on a subject which neither you, nor I, nor any man or woman can answer? Only God can answer, and He will let you know. Why not just give it up? Hasnt it gone on long enough now? Date: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 4:40pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 739038 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738983, Reply to #738937, Reply to #738876, R*) (1 reply) SB>SF>SB>I think the sin comes into it because God created male AND female. SB>SF>SB>Presumably, he did so for a reason. You may want to look at my post SB>SF>SB>regarding Romans. SB>SF>G-d also created lesbians, gay men, bisexuals, trangenders, etc. SB>No. GOD(you will forgive my spelling His name out, I trust) created SB>PEOPLE. Saying He created lesbians, homosexuals, etc, is like saying He SB>created rapists, drunks, and any other variety of person you can name. SB>WE decide what we do, and why we do it. Good point. You stated it somewhat more diplomatically than I ever could :-) Date: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 4:46pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 739039 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738997, Reply to #738965, Reply to #738930, R*) (1 reply) VI>Good question. I honestly don't know the answer. I would tend to say VI>that the Conservative movement does NOT require women to follow the VI>laws of niddah or go to the mikvah. But that is only a guess on my VI>part. If you have a chance and you come across someone who may know the answer, I'd really appreciate your asking the question. VI>You might be interested to know that the Orthodox synagogue in Brooklyn VI>Heights is now in the process of fund raising so that they can build a VI>mikvah in their synagogue. There was an article about this in the VI>local free give away newspaper. VI>What I thought was interesting was that the article was saying that the VI>mikvah would be made available to ALL Jews in the neighborhood and that VI>the Orthodox congregration was specifically outreaching to the Reform VI>congregraion and the Conservative congregration in the neighborhood for VI>fundraising neighborhood. But I was happy to see at least a small sign VI>of Jewish unity in this article. VI>Now mind you Brooklyn Heights is a very goyish neighborhood. The Jews VI>in the neighborhood are overwhelming nonOrthodox. The article also had VI>a quote from the Conservative rabbi that he was happy that the Orthodox VI>congregration was undertaking this effort and that there were many VI>women in his congregration who would take advantage of the mikvah. Availability of a Mikvah is about the first thing an orthodox couples inquires about when moving into a new neighborhood. "Living" together when the women is a Niddah is considered a "no no" of the highest degree. Date: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 4:51pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 739040 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739004, Reply to #738966, Reply to #738937, R*) (1 reply) SF>KK>SF>SB>I think the sin comes into it because God created male AND female. SF>KK>SF>SB>Presumably, he did so for a reason. You may want to look at my post SF>KK>SF>SB>regarding Romans. SF>KK>SF>G-d also created lesbians, gay men, bisexuals, trangenders, etc. SF>KK>And don't forget pedophiles and individuals into bestiality. SF>When all else fails its time to compare gays and lesbians to actions SF>that the majority of all orientations find both illegal and immoral. No Steve, when all else fails it is time for you to ignore the statement made by any individual you happen to disagree with and change the topic. You have not responded to my post. As a matter of fact your response, when you think about it, may even make my point stronger. Sam made the same response but somewhat a bit more diplomatically. BTW...I did not check now...but I think that the exact place where it says in the Bible that it is a sin for 2 males to have anal intercourse it is also stated that it is a sin to have intercourse with an animal. If I am correct then if a group claims that one is not a sin then the other should not be a sin as well. Date: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 4:53pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 739041 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739005, Reply to #738968, Reply to #738942, R*) SF>KK>SF>Maybe I am simply because people like you are so busy telling me that SF>KK>SF>G-d created me to sin. SF>KK>I love your cryptic messages! SF>Nothing cryptic at all. I am in private e-mail correspondence with a SF>number of younger individuals from a list called frumgays who are SF>struggling with being both gay and orthodox and one of their greatest SF>fears is being found out by "judgemental" members of "our" community. What does that have to do with anything? Can you find me the message where I state that G-d created you to sin??? Date: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 4:55pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 739042 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739006, Reply to #738983, Reply to #738937, R*) (1 reply) SF>SB> Sam Beckett SF>Its unfortunate that you choose to compare gays and lesbians to rapists SF>and drunks. Don't feel bad, Sam. I get the same response from Steve. He may really not understand at all the point we are trying to make, although you seem to have stated it quite clearly. Date: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 6:55pm Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 739053 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739022, Reply to #739016, Reply to #739006, R*) (2 replies) SF>I am not questioning your religious beliefs about homosexuality, just SF>expressing my feelings when I see my life(not lifestyle) compared, even SF>if innocently to drunks and rapist. You could have compared me to SF>republicans, democrates, baseball fans, etc. I don't think you should be compared to drunks or rapists, it's not right. * OLX 2.1 TD * "Look, can we get this show on the road?"--Lord Bowler Date: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 6:55pm Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 739054 To: Steve C Re: Jewish Communion (Reply to #739028, Reply to #738995, Reply to #738962) (2 replies) SC>VI>Reminds me of the story with my maternal grandfather. SC>VI>Years and years ago, when my grandfather was a young man he almost SC>VI>drowned while swimming at Coney Island. They took him to St. Vincent's SC>VI>Hospital, unconcious and in critical condition. The priest SC>VI>administered the last rites of the church to him. When he recovered SC>VI>the nurse/nuns were all apologized to him when they found out he was SC>VI>Jewish. He told him it was ok, and that while he was in critical SC>VI>condition ALL prayers were greatly appreciated. :) SC>True. It was done with concern for his well being, so it can't hurt. :) Actully it would probaldy help!!! * OLX 2.1 TD * Blaine is a pain, and that is the truth. Date: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 6:56pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739055 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739008, Reply to #738993, Reply to #738939, R*) (1 reply) SF>I do not disagree with you that established practices have not been SF>equatible to women, however, I will not play G-d nor his/her spokeperson SF>by labeling what I do not agree with as a sin. That's easy for you to say. You're a man. You're enjoying male privelege. Date: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 6:57pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739056 To: Steve Flur Re: ADVOCATE (Reply to #739009, Reply to #738994, Reply to #738940, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You might want to check out the latest edition of the Advo SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>are a whole series of articles about gays and religion, in SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>about Judaism, with many of the gayjews members prominantl SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Ok. I'll see if I can find it. But don't throw your issue o SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>in case I can't. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Will do, but I am sure your usual haunts must carry the magazine SF>VI>SF>VI>Actually, I picked it up yesterday and read it. I wasn't very SF>VI>SF>VI>impressed with the issue. Thought it was kind of boring and shallo SF>VI>SF>VI>coverage. SF>VI>SF>What do you expect from a glossy news magazine. SF>VI>From "The Advocate", I don't expect much. SF>At least, however, the story is getting national exposure. Within the g/l community that is. Date: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 6:59pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739057 To: Steve C Re: Jewish Communion (Reply to #739028, Reply to #738995, Reply to #738962) (1 reply) SC>VI>Reminds me of the story with my maternal grandfather. SC>VI>Years and years ago, when my grandfather was a young man he almost SC>VI>drowned while swimming at Coney Island. They took him to St. Vincent's SC>VI>Hospital, unconcious and in critical condition. The priest SC>VI>administered the last rites of the church to him. When he recovered SC>VI>the nurse/nuns were all apologized to him when they found out he was SC>VI>Jewish. He told him it was ok, and that while he was in critical SC>VI>condition ALL prayers were greatly appreciated. :) SC>True. It was done with concern for his well being, so it can't hurt. :) SC>--- I believe that G-d hears ALL prayers. So the prayers said by any religion, in good faith, are heard and are given the same respect. :) Date: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 7:05pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739058 To: Kkid Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739039, Reply to #738997, Reply to #738965, R*) KK>VI>Good question. I honestly don't know the answer. I would tend to say KK>VI>that the Conservative movement does NOT require women to follow the KK>VI>laws of niddah or go to the mikvah. But that is only a guess on my KK>VI>part. KK>If you have a chance and you come across someone who may know the KK>answer, I'd really appreciate your asking the question. The rabbis at BJ give a class, which I hope take in the fall. So remind me in the fall and I will ask the rabbis directly. Just remember the Conservative movement has a very, very wide variance in practice. It varies from 'quasi Orthodox' to 'quasi Reform'. BJ is at the extreme left end of the Conservative movement. Indeed, I have heard rumors that there was some movement to expel the congregration from the Conservative movement because of the positions which the rabbis have taken. So take whatever answer I might get from BJ's rabbis as NOT representative for the Conservative movement as a whole. KK>VI>You might be interested to know that the Orthodox synagogue in Brooklyn KK>VI>Heights is now in the process of fund raising so that they can build a KK>VI>mikvah in their synagogue. There was an article about this in the KK>VI>local free give away newspaper. KK>VI>What I thought was interesting was that the article was saying that the KK>VI>mikvah would be made available to ALL Jews in the neighborhood and that KK>VI>the Orthodox congregration was specifically outreaching to the Reform KK>VI>congregraion and the Conservative congregration in the neighborhood for KK>VI>fundraising neighborhood. But I was happy to see at least a small sign KK>VI>of Jewish unity in this article. KK>VI>Now mind you Brooklyn Heights is a very goyish neighborhood. The Jews KK>VI>in the neighborhood are overwhelming nonOrthodox. The article also had KK>VI>a quote from the Conservative rabbi that he was happy that the Orthodox KK>VI>congregration was undertaking this effort and that there were many KK>VI>women in his congregration who would take advantage of the mikvah. KK>Availability of a Mikvah is about the first thing an orthodox couples KK>inquires about when moving into a new neighborhood. "Living" together KK>when the women is a Niddah is considered a "no no" of the highest KK>degree. Yes, the article said that an Orthodox congregration would even sell a Torah scroll to pay for build a mikvah. Date: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 7:06pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739059 To: Nightbird Re: Jewish Communion (Reply to #739054, Reply to #739028, Reply to #738995, R*) (1 reply) NI>SC>VI>Reminds me of the story with my maternal grandfather. NI>SC>VI>Years and years ago, when my grandfather was a young man he almost NI>SC>VI>drowned while swimming at Coney Island. They took him to St. Vincent' NI>SC>VI>Hospital, unconcious and in critical condition. The priest NI>SC>VI>administered the last rites of the church to him. When he recovered NI>SC>VI>the nurse/nuns were all apologized to him when they found out he was NI>SC>VI>Jewish. He told him it was ok, and that while he was in critical NI>SC>VI>condition ALL prayers were greatly appreciated. :) NI>SC>True. It was done with concern for his well being, so it can't hurt. :) NI>Actully it would probaldy help!!! I would take it one step further Marie--it DID help! :) Date: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 9:44pm Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 739060 To: Nightbird Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739053, Reply to #739022, Reply to #739016, R*) (1 reply) NI>SF>I am not questioning your religious beliefs about homosexuality, just NI>SF>expressing my feelings when I see my life(not lifestyle) compared, even NI>SF>if innocently to drunks and rapist. You could have compared me to NI>SF>republicans, democrates, baseball fans, etc. NI>I don't think you should be compared to drunks or rapists, it's not NI>right. NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * "Look, can we get this show on the road?"--Lord Bowler They WERENT compared to drunks and rapists, Nightbird. The whole point is that THAT was all he focused on, sure that I was trying to insult him/them, and completely ignored the rest of my message. Date: Wednesday, July 16, 1997 1:01am Forum: Theology From: Dti Msg#: 739081 To: Sam Beckett Re: Miracle text 1/2 (Reply to #738347, Reply to #738321, Reply to #737643, R*) SB>Hi. SB> You know, when I read this last message, I knew that I had to SB>reply to it. Being not only a psych major but a person of faith as well, SB>I think I am qualified to speak(at least a little) on these subjects. If SB>I am way off base, or if I give offense, I ask in advance to be forgiven SB>for it, as that is not my intention. You are of course forgiven in advance in the absence of malice, and forgiven upon confession and/or repentance under any imaginable circumstances... SB> First off, I have to say that I think the main error I saw in the SB>whole thing is the fact that it sounds like God is just a creation made SB>by man to either (a) explain life or (b) give life meaning. I think that SB>this is illogical for two reasons. One, look at God's nature. Indeed, SB>examine the nature of this Almighty Being in every major belief system SB>in the world. In every one that I am familiar with, save for Atheism, SB>here will come a time when all of creation will be judged to some SB>degree. After this judgement, the good will go to Heaven, Paradise, SB>whatever it is you want to call it, and the evil will be banished, SB>condemned, destroyed, whatever. If man were going to create a pantheon SB>by which they explained life, why would they create one in which you SB>have the chance to be pnished when life ended? Why not create one where SB>God is nothing more than a big, friendly Santa Claus who is just SB>skulking about, biding his time and waiting to accept everyone in SB>Heaven? Secondly, if you were to exclude God from the picture, and SB>remove every religion that exists, life would STILL have meaning. In my SB>opinion, God is not necessary to give life meaning. After all, our SB>justice system doesn't follow God's precepts, and yet it gives our lives SB>definition and meaning, yes? Meaning is inherent in our existence--it is SB>a part of the world in which we live. So why create an elaborate SB>religion, which to some degree is hindering, to explain life? People do tend to like the idea that when they die there is something else much better as a reward for the time spent here. If man were to create a myth that held that things always ceased at death; or got much worse no matter what one did here, the myth would not be popular enough to survive. Systems that offer total loveliness no matter what one does in life do not serve the larger social cause of broadly spread social structure, i.e. they give no reward for acts of good and no pain for acts of wrong, thus they do not work well in systems that rely on social compliance for benefit of the greater mass of people. Yr second statement above begins to be rational. God is not necessary to bring meaning to life, to be sure. However, our lives are not dependent upon the justice system here for definition and meaning. You may feel free to explain why people create detailed systems of religious belief, which to some degree may be hindering, but such things will in no way explain life or the living of same as practiced. Exemplars are fine things, and I am in favour of them: it is a good thing when people behave well after all. SB> My other argument against the beliefs expressed is this--if you SB>look at mankind as a whole, I will grant that there have been many SB>atrocities committed "in the name of God." As Spock said, "Ironic indeed SB>that that which is supposed to be a balm for all pain is a cause of so SB>many wars." However, if you were to sample the population, and look at SB>those people who believe that God exists, He loves us, and that there is SB>a place after this one that is better, and free of the sufferings here, SB>you WILL find that they are happier, healthier, and as a general rule, SB>more likely to reach out and try to change things. I know that there are SB>fanatics in my belief--there are in every belief. But I dont believe a SB>fanatic follows the teachings as they are written. I believe that SB>somewere in there, the fanatic changes things to suit themselves. SB>Besides, can you honestly say that all the myriad wonders in the SB>universe just HAPPENED? All the intricate chemical interactions, the SB>physical laws...they all just POOFed into existence? Okay: as you just said, many awful things people have done they have done in the 'name of god'. That would be fine if god really was there imploring even the most awful things done in the name of, after all, god being god all things done for god are beyond reproach. Far as sampling the population goes, well, last time I checked we had a mayor and a president and a governor who were given said jobs as a result of asking the population who they thought would be a fine choice, and I disagree with all three of the present choices. Leaving the existence of god to such a flimsy mechanism of truth will make for vast windy loopholes for me to play in, if that is a real part of yr argument here. As to the universe just HAPPENING as opposed to being made of whole nothing in six days by one very imaginative being, well, can you honestly give up THAT easily? If you can, you posess faith, which is a requirement, and I am happy for you that you do, as I have no malice towards those with faith. I do not have that ability to believe in things like all of the known and unknown being made of nothing by sheer force of will something like four or six thousand years ago, and this is not because of some belief in the major competing religion there days either, that competition running under the general banner of Science. Please do not waste yr time pointing out discrepancies in evolution theory of quantum mechanics, alright? That's another god, equally real as the one named as such by you and others... >>> Continued to next message --- * SLMR 2.0 * Sleep is Not Legal Geneva Convention plus Other Laws Date: Wednesday, July 16, 1997 1:01am Forum: Theology From: Dti Msg#: 739082 To: Sam Beckett Re: Miracle text 2/2 (Reply to #738347, Reply to #738321, Reply to #737643, R*) >>> Continued from previous message SB> Somehow, I find the belief in God to be far more comforting and SB>plausible than the POOF theory. Dont believe me? Put the components of a SB>radio in a box and let them sit. No matter how long you wait, they dont SB>just come together and form a radio. :) That is because people invented all the components of yr argument radio and thus without the intervention of people, yr argument radio will remain a set of inert components as long as people do not assemble them according to their skills and/or imagination. If you would like to, you can goto Radio Shack and get a set of radio components and do what you wish with them to prove your end of the argument, of course. Pray until your head explodes and you may suddenly end up with a functional radio, but I have doubts, especially considering the implicit disclaimer present even in the New Testament in ref to the doing of cheap popular miracles for the purposes of entertaining the people and making them believe. But please, be my guest: put the components of a radio in a box and do what you think is effective. You can make this easier if you like and I wont mind: Put a nut and a bolt that you have already ascertained will fit together into a box and ask god to screw them together. Do not call Kreskin, that would be cheating. SB> Thanks for reading all of this. Take care and be happy! Yr welcome, actually, this was fun. I wish you the best in all yr endeavours, and good weather and pleasant days to you and yrs --- * SLMR 2.0 * Sleep is Not Legal Geneva Convention plus Other Laws Date: Wednesday, July 16, 1997 1:01am Forum: Theology From: Dti Msg#: 739083 To: Vida Re: Miracle text (Reply to #738448, Reply to #738321, Reply to #737643, R*) (1 reply) VI>DT> Why do you think people generally have this strong trend towards VI>DT>externalizing the meaning of life by placing it into some written VI>DT>generally accepted myth system, like the popular theologies? Why do most VI>DT>people refuse to accept the meaning of THEIR OWN ACTUAL LIVES? VI>For me, my life has more meaning now that I have gone from being an VI>atheist to being somewhat religious. My spirtuality has helped me VI>transform myself from being a self righteous prig to a more humble human VI>being. So why do you think people generally have this strong trend towards externalizing the meaning of life by placing it into some written generally accepted myth system, like the popular theologies? Why do most people refuse to accept the meaning of THEIR OWN ACTUAL LIVES? I am glad you have found personal joy in yr faith, that is a fine thing I applaud, but it aint what I was asking about... --- * SLMR 2.0 * This tagline is yr brain on Drugs hear it move? Date: Wednesday, July 16, 1997 6:53am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739127 To: Dti Re: Miracle text (Reply to #739083, Reply to #738448, Reply to #738321, R*) DT>VI>DT> Why do you think people generally have this strong trend towards DT>VI>DT>externalizing the meaning of life by placing it into some written DT>VI>DT>generally accepted myth system, like the popular theologies? Why do mo DT>VI>DT>people refuse to accept the meaning of THEIR OWN ACTUAL LIVES? DT>VI>For me, my life has more meaning now that I have gone from being an DT>VI>atheist to being somewhat religious. My spirtuality has helped me DT>VI>transform myself from being a self righteous prig to a more humble human DT>VI>being. DT> So why do you think people generally have this strong trend towards DT>externalizing the meaning of life by placing it into some written DT>generally accepted myth system, like the popular theologies? Why do most DT>people refuse to accept the meaning of THEIR OWN ACTUAL LIVES? I am glad DT>you have found personal joy in yr faith, that is a fine thing I applaud, DT>but it aint what I was asking about... DT>--- I don't agree with your statement that religious or spirtual people refuse to accept the meanings of their own lives. There are some really cool, really together religious people. There are some really fucked up religious people. You have to talk to the individual and determine for yourself if they are together or not. Date: Wednesday, July 16, 1997 9:53am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739144 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739036, Reply to #739022, Reply to #739016, R*) (1 reply) These discussions will continue so long as people, in this case gay jews, choose to continue to associate within their own community and not be forced to abandon 3,000 years of heritage. Date: Wednesday, July 16, 1997 9:54am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739146 To: Kkid Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739038, Reply to #738983, Reply to #738937, R*) (1 reply) KK>SB>SF>SB>I think the sin comes into it because God created male AND female. KK>SB>SF>SB>Presumably, he did so for a reason. You may want to look at my post KK>SB>SF>SB>regarding Romans. KK>SB>SF>G-d also created lesbians, gay men, bisexuals, trangenders, etc. KK>SB>No. GOD(you will forgive my spelling His name out, I trust) created KK>SB>PEOPLE. Saying He created lesbians, homosexuals, etc, is like saying He KK>SB>created rapists, drunks, and any other variety of person you can name. KK>SB>WE decide what we do, and why we do it. KK>Good point. You stated it somewhat more diplomatically than I ever could KK>:-) Its diplomatic to be compared to rapists and drunks? Date: Wednesday, July 16, 1997 9:56am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739147 To: Kkid Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739040, Reply to #739004, Reply to #738966, R*) (1 reply) KK>SF>KK>SF>SB>I think the sin comes into it because God created male AND femal KK>SF>KK>SF>SB>Presumably, he did so for a reason. You may want to look at my p KK>SF>KK>SF>SB>regarding Romans. KK>SF>KK>SF>G-d also created lesbians, gay men, bisexuals, trangenders, etc. KK>SF>KK>And don't forget pedophiles and individuals into bestiality. KK>SF>When all else fails its time to compare gays and lesbians to actions KK>SF>that the majority of all orientations find both illegal and immoral. KK>No Steve, when all else fails it is time for you to ignore the statement KK>made by any individual you happen to disagree with and change the topic. KK>You have not responded to my post. As a matter of fact your response, KK>when you think about it, may even make my point stronger. KK>Sam made the same response but somewhat a bit more diplomatically. KK>BTW...I did not check now...but I think that the exact place where it KK>says in the Bible that it is a sin for 2 males to have anal intercourse KK>it is also stated that it is a sin to have intercourse with an animal. KK>If I am correct then if a group claims that one is not a sin then the KK>other should not be a sin as well. To be literal the beastiality verse only refers to a woman. Date: Wednesday, July 16, 1997 10:02am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739148 To: Kkid Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739042, Reply to #739006, Reply to #738983, R*) KK>SF>SB> Sam Beckett KK>SF>Its unfortunate that you choose to compare gays and lesbians to rapists KK>SF>and drunks. KK>Don't feel bad, Sam. I get the same response from Steve. He may really KK>not understand at all the point we are trying to make, although you seem KK>to have stated it quite clearly. You might to take time to read other posts in this forum to see I am not alone in finding these comparisons objectionable. Date: Wednesday, July 16, 1997 10:04am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739149 To: Nightbird Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739053, Reply to #739022, Reply to #739016, R*) (1 reply) NI>SF>I am not questioning your religious beliefs about homosexuality, just NI>SF>expressing my feelings when I see my life(not lifestyle) compared, even NI>SF>if innocently to drunks and rapist. You could have compared me to NI>SF>republicans, democrates, baseball fans, etc. NI>I don't think you should be compared to drunks or rapists, it's not NI>right. NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * "Look, can we get this show on the road?"--Lord Bowler Thank you for seeing what others have missed. Date: Wednesday, July 16, 1997 10:06am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739150 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739055, Reply to #739008, Reply to #738993, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>I do not disagree with you that established practices have not been VI>SF>equatible to women, however, I will not play G-d nor his/her spokeperson VI>SF>by labeling what I do not agree with as a sin. VI>That's easy for you to say. You're a man. You're enjoying male VI>privelege. Again, I will say that I totally agree about women within the orthodox community, however, sin I leave to G-d. Date: Wednesday, July 16, 1997 10:06am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739151 To: Vida Re: ADVOCATE (Reply to #739056, Reply to #739009, Reply to #738994, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You might want to check out the latest edition of the A VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>are a whole series of articles about gays and religion, VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>about Judaism, with many of the gayjews members promina VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Ok. I'll see if I can find it. But don't throw your issu VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>in case I can't. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Will do, but I am sure your usual haunts must carry the magaz VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Actually, I picked it up yesterday and read it. I wasn't very VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>impressed with the issue. Thought it was kind of boring and sha VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>coverage. VI>SF>VI>SF>What do you expect from a glossy news magazine. VI>SF>VI>From "The Advocate", I don't expect much. VI>SF>At least, however, the story is getting national exposure. VI>Within the g/l community that is. That helps as well. Date: Wednesday, July 16, 1997 11:45am Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 739152 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739144, Reply to #739036, Reply to #739022, R*) (1 reply) Indeed. And where does it say that you must be the one to continue them? People will undoubtedly always kill for one reason or another--must I, then, be a part of the killing or the process that continues it? In that instance, as in this, all it takes is one person saying "I will not argue. As I said in my last message, if you are comfortable with what you are doing, why argue it with other people? That is between you and God, isnt it? Date: Wednesday, July 16, 1997 1:00pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739153 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739152, Reply to #739144, Reply to #739036, R*) (2 replies) Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandmother, I do not have a ladder high enough to climb up and argue with G-d. Date: Wednesday, July 16, 1997 1:15pm Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 739160 To: Vida Re: Jewish Communion (Reply to #739059, Reply to #739054, Reply to #739028, R*) VI>NI>SC>VI>Reminds me of the story with my maternal grandfather. VI>NI>SC>VI>Years and years ago, when my grandfather was a young man he almost VI>NI>SC>VI>drowned while swimming at Coney Island. They took him to St. Vince VI>NI>SC>VI>Hospital, unconcious and in critical condition. The priest VI>NI>SC>VI>administered the last rites of the church to him. When he recovere VI>NI>SC>VI>the nurse/nuns were all apologized to him when they found out he wa VI>NI>SC>VI>Jewish. He told him it was ok, and that while he was in critical VI>NI>SC>VI>condition ALL prayers were greatly appreciated. :) VI>NI>SC>True. It was done with concern for his well being, so it can't hurt. : VI>NI>Actully it would probaldy help!!! VI>I would take it one step further Marie--it DID help! :) I understand that. * OLX 2.1 TD * "Well as my great-grandfather used to say,cool."-Sheridan Date: Wednesday, July 16, 1997 1:15pm Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 739161 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739060, Reply to #739053, Reply to #739022, R*) (1 reply) SB>NI>SF>I am not questioning your religious beliefs about homosexuality, just SB>NI>SF>expressing my feelings when I see my life(not lifestyle) compared, eve SB>NI>SF>if innocently to drunks and rapist. You could have compared me to SB>NI>SF>republicans, democrates, baseball fans, etc. SB>NI>I don't think you should be compared to drunks or rapists, it's not SB>NI>right. SB>NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * "Look, can we get this show on the road?"--Lord Bowler SB>They WERENT compared to drunks and rapists, Nightbird. The whole point SB>is that THAT was all he focused on, sure that I was trying to insult SB>him/them, and completely ignored the rest of my message. OOps, I goofed! * OLX 2.1 TD * Ah, come on, just this one last little feature. Date: Wednesday, July 16, 1997 1:15pm Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 739163 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739149, Reply to #739053, Reply to #739022, R*) SF>I>SF>I am not questioning your religious beliefs about homosexuality, just SF>NI>SF>expressing my feelings when I see my life(not lifestyle) compared, eve SF>NI>SF>if innocently to drunks and rapist. You could have compared me to SF>NI>SF>republicans, democrates, baseball fans, etc. SF>NI>I don't think you should be compared to drunks or rapists, it's not SF>NI>right. SF>NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * "Look, can we get this show on the road?"--Lord Bowler SF>Thank you for seeing what others have missed. Whatever * OLX 2.1 TD * Tagline Lotto: {}{}{}{}{}<-Scatch here for prize. Date: Wednesday, July 16, 1997 2:20pm Forum: Theology From: Steve C Msg#: 739172 To: Nightbird Re: Jewish Communion (Reply to #739054, Reply to #739028, Reply to #738995, R*) (1 reply) NI>Actully it would probaldy help!!! ----- Hey!! Watch who your calling Baldy --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ "Avoid overuse of 'quotation "marks."'" Date: Wednesday, July 16, 1997 2:20pm Forum: Theology From: Steve C Msg#: 739173 To: Vida Re: Jewish Communion (Reply to #739057, Reply to #739028, Reply to #738995, R*) VI>SC>True. It was done with concern for his well being, so it can't hurt. :) VI>SC>--- VI>I believe that G-d hears ALL prayers. So the prayers said by any VI>religion, in good faith, are heard and are given the same respect. :) I agree with that. :) --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Don't nest parentheses (unless (absolutely) necessary). Date: Wednesday, July 16, 1997 3:44pm Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 739180 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739153, Reply to #739152, Reply to #739144, R*) (1 reply) SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandmother, I do not have a ladder SF>high enough to climb up and argue with G-d. Cute, very cute Date: Wednesday, July 16, 1997 3:45pm Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 739181 To: Steve C Re: Jewish Communion (Reply to #739172, Reply to #739054, Reply to #739028, R*) SC>NI>Actully it would probaldy help!!! SC> ----- SC>Hey!! Watch who your calling Baldy SC>--- SC> þ OLX 2.1 TD þ "Avoid overuse of 'quotation "marks."'" But YOU still have hair!!!! Date: Wednesday, July 16, 1997 7:44pm Forum: Theology From: Rand Msg#: 739195 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #738998, Reply to #738975, Reply to #738864, R*) (1 reply) In a message dated 07-14-97 Vida wrote to Rand : RA>V> In my opinion, it is clear that the Bible can in no way outright RA>V> condemn homosexuality. G-d created g/l human beings. Since ALL humans RA>V> are created in the image of the divine this means that g/l people are RA>V> as precious to G-d as every other human people. RA>He also created individuals with extra Y chromosomes, who tend to be more RA>violent, yet as you point out, murder is a sin. Regardless of whether RA>something is "natural," or if people have inborn tendencies (which, RA>incidentally, I believe homosexuality to be), the Bible could quite easily RA>b RA>the conduct. RA>The people are as precious to G-d, but the act may still be a sin, n'est RA>pas V> There's a mile of a difference between born with an extra Y chromosome V> and being born a g/l person. And in any event, I do not believe that V> g/l sexuality is a sin. I know you don't, but to say that the Bible cannot condemn homosexuality because G-d created gays and lesbians with the tendency to be attracted to, and fall in love with, members of the same sex overlooks the fact that G-d created many tendencies in people. Now, it might be that some people have to work harder to overcome tendencies for certain behaviour, like the extra Y chromosomed man must work to overcome his violent tendencies, but that doesn't mean that the act which he has a tendency to commit is not a sin. It seems pretty silly to me to say that male-male sex, at least, isn't a sin. It's about as clear a prohibition as you can get. Maybe it was originally intended to differentiate Jews from the pagans, but it's in the Tanach proper, not even Rabbinically created. Now, I have no problem with someone saying, "OK, but halacha is merely advisory, and no longer binding." That's a decision you have to make. Nor do I have a problem with, "Yeah, I know it's a sin, but, well, it's tough to overcome my desire to do the deed." Hell, I do that with Kashrut all the time. That's between me and G-d, and nobody else. But I do have a problem with somebody saying that something written in the Torah, in language about as clear as you can get in the Tanach, is somehow "not a sin" because we live in different times. TANSTAAFL, Rand --- * TIMM 1.3 * There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. Date: Wednesday, July 16, 1997 7:44pm Forum: Theology From: Rand Msg#: 739196 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739008, Reply to #738993, Reply to #738939, R*) (1 reply) In a message dated 07-15-97 Steve Flur wrote to Vida : SF> I do not disagree with you that established practices have not been SF> equatible to women, however, I will not play G-d nor his/her spokeperson SF> by labeling what I do not agree with as a sin. So you are an Orthodox Jew who does not accept the binding nature of halacha? TANSTAAFL, Rand --- * TIMM 1.3 * I'm Pro-Choice on Everything! Date: Wednesday, July 16, 1997 7:44pm Forum: Theology From: Rand Msg#: 739197 To: Vida Re: Jewish Communion (Reply to #738995, Reply to #738962) (1 reply) In a message dated 07-14-97 Vida wrote to Steve C: V> Years and years ago, when my grandfather was a young man he almost V> drowned while swimming at Coney Island. They took him to St. Vincent's V> Hospital, unconcious and in critical condition. The priest V> administered the last rites of the church to him. When he recovered V> the nurse/nuns were all apologized to him when they found out he was V> Jewish. He told him it was ok, and that while he was in critical V> condition ALL prayers were greatly appreciated. :) I'm sure you remember the old joke... Moishe, 85 years young (as we say, not to curse ourselves), is walking down the street when he collapses with a heart attack. A crowd gathers, and a priest kneels with him and asks, "Do you believe in the Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, my son?" Moishe looks heavenward and cries, "I'm dying here, and he's asking me riddles!" TANSTAAFL, Rand --- * TIMM 1.3 * There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. Date: Wednesday, July 16, 1997 7:59pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 739200 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739146, Reply to #739038, Reply to #738983, R*) SF>KK>SB>SF>SB>I think the sin comes into it because God created male AND femal SF>KK>SB>SF>SB>Presumably, he did so for a reason. You may want to look at my p SF>KK>SB>SF>SB>regarding Romans. SF>KK>SB>SF>G-d also created lesbians, gay men, bisexuals, trangenders, etc. SF>KK>SB>No. GOD(you will forgive my spelling His name out, I trust) created SF>KK>SB>PEOPLE. Saying He created lesbians, homosexuals, etc, is like saying H SF>KK>SB>created rapists, drunks, and any other variety of person you can name. SF>KK>SB>WE decide what we do, and why we do it. SF>KK>Good point. You stated it somewhat more diplomatically than I ever could SF>KK>:-) SF>Its diplomatic to be compared to rapists and drunks? No, Steve. Sam did not compare you to a rapist or a drunk. Perhaps you can explain to both of us what you meant when you said that G-d created lesbians, gay men, bisexuals, trangenders, etc...? What was your point? We were probably both assuming wrongly that you meant that since G-d created all then it can't be a sin. So what we were trying to point out was that G-d also created criminals who unlike the nice sinless others you have named are definitely not good poeple. That leads us to believe that G-d does created people who supposedly commit crimes like rape. So what was your point in stating that G-d created lesbians, etc... Please enlighten Sam and me. Date: Wednesday, July 16, 1997 8:01pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 739201 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739147, Reply to #739040, Reply to #739004, R*) SF>KK>BTW...I did not check now...but I think that the exact place where it SF>KK>says in the Bible that it is a sin for 2 males to have anal intercourse SF>KK>it is also stated that it is a sin to have intercourse with an animal. SF>KK>If I am correct then if a group claims that one is not a sin then the SF>KK>other should not be a sin as well. SF>To be literal the beastiality verse only refers to a woman. So there is no sin if a man lives with an animal? But there is a sin if a woman does? Date: Wednesday, July 16, 1997 8:04pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 739202 To: Rand Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739195, Reply to #738998, Reply to #738975, R*) RA>Now, it might be that some people have to work harder to overcome tendencies RA>for certain behaviour, like the extra Y chromosomed man must work to overcom RA>his violent tendencies, but that doesn't mean that the act which he has a RA>tendency to commit is not a sin. RA>It seems pretty silly to me to say that male-male sex, at least, isn't a sin RA>It's about as clear a prohibition as you can get. Maybe it was originally RA>intended to differentiate Jews from the pagans, but it's in the Tanach prope RA>not even Rabbinically created. Now, I have no problem with someone saying, RA>"OK, but halacha is merely advisory, and no longer binding." That's a RA>decision you have to make. RA>Nor do I have a problem with, "Yeah, I know it's a sin, but, well, it's toug RA>to overcome my desire to do the deed." Hell, I do that with Kashrut all the RA>time. That's between me and G-d, and nobody else. RA>But I do have a problem with somebody saying that something written in the RA>Torah, in language about as clear as you can get in the Tanach, is somehow RA>"not a sin" because we live in different times. Exactly my feelings. Wait until you get Steve's response, Rand. Everything can be rationalized if one really wants to. Date: Thursday, July 17, 1997 7:28am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739210 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739150, Reply to #739055, Reply to #739008, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>I do not disagree with you that established practices have not been SF>VI>SF>equatible to women, however, I will not play G-d nor his/her spokepers SF>VI>SF>by labeling what I do not agree with as a sin. SF>VI>That's easy for you to say. You're a man. You're enjoying male SF>VI>privelege. SF>Again, I will say that I totally agree about women within the orthodox SF>community, however, sin I leave to G-d. And I say any class based discrimination is sin. And it is doubly a sin when it is done in G-d's name. Date: Thursday, July 17, 1997 7:29am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739211 To: Steve Flur Re: ADVOCATE (Reply to #739151, Reply to #739056, Reply to #739009, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You might want to check out the latest edition of th SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>are a whole series of articles about gays and religi SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>about Judaism, with many of the gayjews members prom SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Ok. I'll see if I can find it. But don't throw your i SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>in case I can't. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Will do, but I am sure your usual haunts must carry the ma SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Actually, I picked it up yesterday and read it. I wasn't ver SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>impressed with the issue. Thought it was kind of boring and SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>coverage. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>What do you expect from a glossy news magazine. SF>VI>SF>VI>From "The Advocate", I don't expect much. SF>VI>SF>At least, however, the story is getting national exposure. SF>VI>Within the g/l community that is. SF>That helps as well. Sure. If it will help same g/l person reclaim his/her spirtuality, that's good. Date: Thursday, July 17, 1997 7:30am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739212 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739153, Reply to #739152, Reply to #739144, R*) (1 reply) SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandmother, I do not have a ladder SF>high enough to climb up and argue with G-d. I like that one! :) Date: Thursday, July 17, 1997 7:32am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739213 To: Rand Re: Jewish Communion (Reply to #739197, Reply to #738995, Reply to #738962) RA>In a message dated 07-14-97 Vida wrote to Steve C: RA>V> Years and years ago, when my grandfather was a young man he almost RA>V> drowned while swimming at Coney Island. They took him to St. Vincent's RA>V> Hospital, unconcious and in critical condition. The priest RA>V> administered the last rites of the church to him. When he recovered RA>V> the nurse/nuns were all apologized to him when they found out he was RA>V> Jewish. He told him it was ok, and that while he was in critical RA>V> condition ALL prayers were greatly appreciated. :) RA>I'm sure you remember the old joke... RA>Moishe, 85 years young (as we say, not to curse ourselves), is walking down RA>the street when he collapses with a heart attack. A crowd gathers, and a RA>priest kneels with him and asks, "Do you believe in the Father, The Son, and RA>The Holy Spirit, my son?" RA>Moishe looks heavenward and cries, "I'm dying here, and he's asking me RA>riddles!" :) :) :) Actually, I never heard that one before. :) Date: Thursday, July 17, 1997 8:58am Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 739220 To: Nightbird Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739161, Reply to #739060, Reply to #739053, R*) (1 reply) Its ok, Nightbird. Sorry if that message seemed curt. :) Date: Thursday, July 17, 1997 11:22am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739232 To: Nightbird Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739180, Reply to #739153, Reply to #739152, R*) (2 replies) NI>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandmother, I do not have a ladder NI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue with G-d. NI>Cute, very cute It sounded more profound in Yiddish Date: Thursday, July 17, 1997 11:26am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739233 To: Rand Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739196, Reply to #739008, Reply to #738993, R*) (1 reply) RA>In a message dated 07-15-97 Steve Flur wrote to Vida : RA>SF> I do not disagree with you that established practices have not been RA>SF> equatible to women, however, I will not play G-d nor his/her spokeperson RA>SF> by labeling what I do not agree with as a sin. RA>So you are an Orthodox Jew who does not accept the binding nature of halacha RA>TANSTAAFL, RA>Rand RA>--- RA> * TIMM 1.3 * I'm Pro-Choice on Everything! Much of how women are treated is far from halachic. Is there a halacha which clearly states a woman my not learn the same as a man or that smicha is limited to males? Date: Thursday, July 17, 1997 11:28am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739234 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739210, Reply to #739150, Reply to #739055, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>I do not disagree with you that established practices have not been VI>SF>VI>SF>equatible to women, however, I will not play G-d nor his/her spokep VI>SF>VI>SF>by labeling what I do not agree with as a sin. VI>SF>VI>That's easy for you to say. You're a man. You're enjoying male VI>SF>VI>privelege. VI>SF>Again, I will say that I totally agree about women within the orthodox VI>SF>community, however, sin I leave to G-d. VI>And I say any class based discrimination is sin. And it is doubly a VI>sin when it is done in G-d's name. Wrong...YES! Sin......I will let you know as soon as G-d tells me. Date: Thursday, July 17, 1997 11:30am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739235 To: Vida Re: ADVOCATE (Reply to #739211, Reply to #739151, Reply to #739056, R*) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You might want to check out the latest edition of VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>are a whole series of articles about gays and rel VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>about Judaism, with many of the gayjews members p VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Ok. I'll see if I can find it. But don't throw you VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>in case I can't. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Will do, but I am sure your usual haunts must carry the VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Actually, I picked it up yesterday and read it. I wasn't VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>impressed with the issue. Thought it was kind of boring a VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>coverage. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>What do you expect from a glossy news magazine. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>From "The Advocate", I don't expect much. VI>SF>VI>SF>At least, however, the story is getting national exposure. VI>SF>VI>Within the g/l community that is. VI>SF>That helps as well. VI>Sure. If it will help same g/l person reclaim his/her spirtuality, VI>that's good. It also tells the community that spirituality is acceptable. Date: Thursday, July 17, 1997 11:31am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739236 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739212, Reply to #739153, Reply to #739152, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandmother, I do not have a ladder VI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue with G-d. VI>I like that one! :) She used this arguement to illustrate how she lived until 96, buried her husband and 4 of her 6 children yet still maintained her faith. Date: Thursday, July 17, 1997 2:28pm Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 739253 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739220, Reply to #739161, Reply to #739060, R*) (1 reply) SB>Its ok, Nightbird. Sorry if that message seemed curt. :) No problem, I still need to be put in my place once in a while. * OLX 2.1 TD * You DARE compare weirdness with me? Foolish mortal... Date: Thursday, July 17, 1997 2:28pm Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 739254 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739232, Reply to #739180, Reply to #739153, R*) (1 reply) SF>I>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandmother, I do not have a ladder SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue with G-d. SF>NI>Cute, very cute SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddish Wouldn't know, I don't know any yiddish :) * OLX 2.1 TD * Unable to exit Windows. Try the door. Date: Thursday, July 17, 1997 2:57pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739264 To: Nightbird Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739254, Reply to #739232, Reply to #739180, R*) (1 reply) NI>SF>I>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandmother, I do not have a ladder NI>SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue with G-d. NI>SF>NI>Cute, very cute NI>SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddish NI>Wouldn't know, I don't know any yiddish :) NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * Unable to exit Windows. Try the door. Neither did I back then. Date: Thursday, July 17, 1997 4:35pm Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 739272 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739264, Reply to #739254, Reply to #739232, R*) (1 reply) SF>NI>SF>I>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandmother, I do not have a lad SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue with G-d. SF>NI>SF>NI>Cute, very cute SF>NI>SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddish SF>NI>Wouldn't know, I don't know any yiddish :) SF>NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * Unable to exit Windows. Try the door. SF>Neither did I back then. Ok fine, hey, I've sang in alot of diffrent laugaguages Date: Thursday, July 17, 1997 4:56pm Forum: Theology From: Steve C Msg#: 739281 To: Nightbird Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739253, Reply to #739220, Reply to #739161, R*) (1 reply) NI>SB>Its ok, Nightbird. Sorry if that message seemed curt. :) NI>No problem, I still need to be put in my place once in a while. I thought that was MY job :) --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Well, the fly's in the milk & the cat's in the stew Date: Thursday, July 17, 1997 5:55pm Forum: Theology From: Rand Msg#: 739285 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739233, Reply to #739196, Reply to #739008, R*) In a message dated 07-17-97 Steve Flur wrote to Rand : RA>SF> I do not disagree with you that established practices have not been RA>SF> equatible to women, however, I will not play G-d nor his/her RA>spokeperson RA>SF> by labeling what I do not agree with as a sin. RA>So you are an Orthodox Jew who does not accept the binding nature of RA>halacha RA>TANSTAAFL, RA>Rand RA>--- RA> * TIMM 1.3 * I'm Pro-Choice on Everything! SF> Much of how women are treated is far from halachic. Is there a halacha SF> which clearly states a woman my not learn the same as a man or that SF> smicha is limited to males? First, your comment was far broader than merely whether women can get smicha. You said that you will not label what you disagree with a sin. I think it's a sin to murder, which, as I recall, was the example Vida used when she called you a moral relativist. Is that sin, or just something disagreeable? Secondly, I'm unsure as to whether there is a halacha regarding smicha or study (I tend to doubt study, at the very least) but there are certainly halachot regarding minyanim, aliyot, and the like. So I guess my questions to you are these: 1) Is halacha binding? 1a) Is there such a thing as sin? 2) If so, can you pick and choose? That is, "Well, I just don't think eating pork is a sin, though of course lighting a fire on Shabbos is." TANSTAAFL, Rand --- * TIMM 1.3 * There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. Date: Thursday, July 17, 1997 6:24pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739291 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739232, Reply to #739180, Reply to #739153, R*) (1 reply) SF>NI>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandmother, I do not have a ladder SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue with G-d. SF>NI>Cute, very cute SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddish Just about anything sounds more profound in Yiddish. It's a very earthy, gutsy langugage. :) Date: Thursday, July 17, 1997 6:25pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739292 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739234, Reply to #739210, Reply to #739150, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I do not disagree with you that established practices have not b SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>equatible to women, however, I will not play G-d nor his/her spo SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>by labeling what I do not agree with as a sin. SF>VI>SF>VI>That's easy for you to say. You're a man. You're enjoying male SF>VI>SF>VI>privelege. SF>VI>SF>Again, I will say that I totally agree about women within the orthodox SF>VI>SF>community, however, sin I leave to G-d. SF>VI>And I say any class based discrimination is sin. And it is doubly a SF>VI>sin when it is done in G-d's name. SF>Wrong...YES! Sin......I will let you know as soon as G-d tells me. G-d tells me...and boy is SHE pissed! Date: Thursday, July 17, 1997 6:26pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739293 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739236, Reply to #739212, Reply to #739153, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandmother, I do not have a ladder SF>VI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue with G-d. SF>VI>I like that one! :) SF>She used this arguement to illustrate how she lived until 96, buried her SF>husband and 4 of her 6 children yet still maintained her faith. Sounds like a strong woman! Date: Friday, July 18, 1997 9:35am Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 739312 To: Steve C Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739281, Reply to #739253, Reply to #739220, R*) SC>NI>SB>Its ok, Nightbird. Sorry if that message seemed curt. :) SC>NI>No problem, I still need to be put in my place once in a while. SC>I thought that was MY job :) Yes, my love(nightbird hangs her head) * OLX 2.1 TD * Come to B5, where you'll never see Ivanova in high heels! Date: Friday, July 18, 1997 10:31am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739314 To: Nightbird Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739272, Reply to #739264, Reply to #739254, R*) (2 replies) NI>SF>NI>SF>I>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandmother, I do not have a NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue with G-d. NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Cute, very cute NI>SF>NI>SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddish NI>SF>NI>Wouldn't know, I don't know any yiddish :) NI>SF>NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * Unable to exit Windows. Try the door. NI>SF>Neither did I back then. NI>Ok fine, hey, I've sang in alot of diffrent laugaguages Did you always understand what you were singing? Date: Friday, July 18, 1997 10:33am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739315 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739291, Reply to #739232, Reply to #739180, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>NI>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandmother, I do not have a ladde VI>SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue with G-d. VI>SF>NI>Cute, very cute VI>SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddish VI>Just about anything sounds more profound in Yiddish. It's a very VI>earthy, gutsy langugage. :) It can sound different depending on which dialect you are using. Date: Friday, July 18, 1997 10:34am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739316 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739292, Reply to #739234, Reply to #739210, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I do not disagree with you that established practices have no VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>equatible to women, however, I will not play G-d nor his/her VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>by labeling what I do not agree with as a sin. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That's easy for you to say. You're a man. You're enjoying male VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>privelege. VI>SF>VI>SF>Again, I will say that I totally agree about women within the ortho VI>SF>VI>SF>community, however, sin I leave to G-d. VI>SF>VI>And I say any class based discrimination is sin. And it is doubly a VI>SF>VI>sin when it is done in G-d's name. VI>SF>Wrong...YES! Sin......I will let you know as soon as G-d tells me. VI>G-d tells me...and boy is SHE pissed! You have a more direct line. Date: Friday, July 18, 1997 10:34am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739317 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739293, Reply to #739236, Reply to #739212, R*) VI>SF>VI>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandmother, I do not have a ladde VI>SF>VI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue with G-d. VI>SF>VI>I like that one! :) VI>SF>She used this arguement to illustrate how she lived until 96, buried her VI>SF>husband and 4 of her 6 children yet still maintained her faith. VI>Sounds like a strong woman! That she was! Date: Friday, July 18, 1997 10:55am Forum: Theology From: Rand Msg#: 739334 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (1 reply) You seem to have missed my post. I'd really like to know your answers, so I've reposted the questions... In a message dated 07-17-97 Steve Flur wrote to Rand : RA>SF> I do not disagree with you that established practices have not been RA>SF> equatible to women, however, I will not play G-d nor his/her RA>spokeperson RA>SF> by labeling what I do not agree with as a sin. RA>So you are an Orthodox Jew who does not accept the binding nature of RA>halacha? RA>TANSTAAFL, RA>Rand SF> Much of how women are treated is far from halachic. Is there a halacha SF> which clearly states a woman my not learn the same as a man or that SF> smicha is limited to males? First, your comment was far broader than merely whether women can get smicha. You said that you will not label what you disagree with a sin. I think it's a sin to murder, which, as I recall, was the example Vida used when she called you a moral relativist. Is that sin, or just something disagreeable? Secondly, I'm unsure as to whether there is a halacha regarding smicha or study (I tend to doubt study, at the very least) but there are certainly halachot regarding minyanim, aliyot, and the like. So I guess my questions to you are these: 1) Is halacha binding? 1a) Is there such a thing as sin? 2) If so, can you pick and choose? That is, "Well, I just don't think eating pork is a sin, though of course lighting a fire on Shabbos is." TANSTAAFL, Rand --- * TIMM 1.3 * I'm Pro-Choice on Everything! Date: Saturday, July 19, 1997 8:36am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739374 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739315, Reply to #739291, Reply to #739232, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandmother, I do not have a la SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue with G-d. SF>VI>SF>NI>Cute, very cute SF>VI>SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddish SF>VI>Just about anything sounds more profound in Yiddish. It's a very SF>VI>earthy, gutsy langugage. :) SF>It can sound different depending on which dialect you are using. That I wouldn't know. Personally I only know a few choice words of Yiddish. My father was a native Yiddish speaker, but my mom didn't speak Yiddish. So my childhood home was anglophone only. I remember my father speaking to his father in Yiddish. And when my father wanted to drive me crazy he would speak to me in Yiddish--because he knew I didn't understand! :) Date: Saturday, July 19, 1997 8:37am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739375 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739316, Reply to #739292, Reply to #739234, R*) (2 replies) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I do not disagree with you that established practices have SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>equatible to women, however, I will not play G-d nor his/h SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>by labeling what I do not agree with as a sin. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That's easy for you to say. You're a man. You're enjoying m SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>privelege. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Again, I will say that I totally agree about women within the or SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>community, however, sin I leave to G-d. SF>VI>SF>VI>And I say any class based discrimination is sin. And it is doubly SF>VI>SF>VI>sin when it is done in G-d's name. SF>VI>SF>Wrong...YES! Sin......I will let you know as soon as G-d tells me. SF>VI>G-d tells me...and boy is SHE pissed! SF>You have a more direct line. On this point, I have absolutely NO DOUBTS. Indeed, as I have written to Kkid I believe that the Messiah will NOT come until and unless Jews treat women as full and equal members of the religion. Date: Sunday, July 20, 1997 9:10am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739410 To: ** ALL ** Re: Leaving for Elat Chayyim (1 reply) I'm leaving to go to Elat Chayyim for a week tommorrow. I'll be gone till next Sunday. Mainly for the benefit of Sam Beckett, let me explain that Elat Chayyim is a Jewish renewal retreat that I have been going to for a week for the past three years. Unfortunately, Reb Zalman had to cancel his class because of health reasons. So I won't have a chance to take a class with him again this year. I was really looking forward to learning from Reb Zalman because he is such a dynamic personality. So it is very sad for me that he won't be there. However, I will be taking a class called "Prophetess, Priestess and Prostitute: Archetypes of Jewish Women's Sexuality, Sprituality and Power". I'm sure I'll have more to say about this class when I get back! Date: Sunday, July 20, 1997 9:59am Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 739414 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739375, Reply to #739316, Reply to #739292, R*) (1 reply) VI>On this point, I have absolutely NO DOUBTS. Indeed, as I have written VI>to Kkid I believe that the Messiah will NOT come until and unless Jews VI>treat women as full and equal members of the religion. I haven't said this in quite a while here so I may as well state it again now. In the orthodox Jewish religion there are separate groupings even among the men. We believe that everyone has a role to play and everyones role is just as important. Date: Sunday, July 20, 1997 11:39am Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 739416 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739314, Reply to #739272, Reply to #739264, R*) (1 reply) SF>I>SF>NI>SF>I>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandmother, I do not have SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue with G-d. SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Cute, very cute SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddish SF>NI>SF>NI>Wouldn't know, I don't know any yiddish :) SF>NI>SF>NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * Unable to exit Windows. Try the door. SF>NI>SF>Neither did I back then. SF>NI>Ok fine, hey, I've sang in alot of diffrent laugaguages SF>Did you always understand what you were singing? Most of the time. * OLX 2.1 TD * Mama said that stupid is as stupid does.-FG Date: Sunday, July 20, 1997 6:47pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739424 To: Kkid Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739414, Reply to #739375, Reply to #739316, R*) (2 replies) KK>VI>On this point, I have absolutely NO DOUBTS. Indeed, as I have written KK>VI>to Kkid I believe that the Messiah will NOT come until and unless Jews KK>VI>treat women as full and equal members of the religion. KK>I haven't said this in quite a while here so I may as well state it KK>again now. In the orthodox Jewish religion there are separate groupings KK>even among the men. We believe that everyone has a role to play and KK>everyones role is just as important. In my opinion the Orthodox exclusion of females from a minyan and the prohibition against women reading from the Torah scroll constitutes places women in an inferior role. What is Kol isha if not sexism? Date: Sunday, July 20, 1997 7:35pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739425 To: Kkid Re: Jewish justification for Different treatment? I thought of you and the discussion we were having in CurrentEvents when I read Judith Antonelli's commentaries on the Torah portion "Pinchas". Everyweek as I have been working my way through the parsha of the week I have been reading three commentaries to help clarify the parsha for me. Because I don't want to drag four rather heavy hard cover books with me to Elat Chayyim with me this week I read "Pinchas" and the commentaries on "Pinchas" yesterday. Anyway, as I stated just above Judith Antonlelli in her book "In the Image of God: A Feminist Commentary on the Torah" raises some points that I thought you might find interesting. Below are her words, from page 378 to page 380: (Note I have ommitted portions of Antonelli's discussion as not being relevenant to the point I want to raise with you.) " The five daughters of Zelopechad were the seventh generation of Joseph and descendants of his Menasheh. Their lineage is empasized because 'as Joseph cherished the Land (wanting his bones brought up from Egypt), so his daughters cherished the Land.' (Rashi). When the time came to allot portions of property to each tribe, the women registered a protest. 'Our father died in the wilderness', they stated. 'He was not among the members of Korach's congregration who gathered against Hashem, but he died because of his own sin, and he did not have sons. Why should our father's name be diminished from among his families because he didn't have a son? Give us a portion of land among our father's brothers!' (Num. 27: 3-4) ....... (Vida has ommited part of the discussion here) The petition of the five women is called 'mishpatan' ("their case"), giving it the status of a legal inquiry. After coming before the Sanhedrin--the courts established by Yitro to relieve Moses of the responsbility of simple judical questions--the daughters of Zelophechad finally stood before the tribal princes, the high priest Elzar and Moses himself. (Num 27:2) In modern terms, their case had reached the Supreme Court. However, not even Moses knew how to answer their challenge! It was a totally new idea to him that women should inherit land, so he consulted with God to find out what should be done. God told Moses point blank: "The daughters of Zelophechad are right. Give them a hereditary portion of land alongside their fathers' brothers. Let their father's hereditary portion of land pass over to them." (Num. 27: 7) God then established a general rule to provide for inheritance of any kind of property (land or movable) by daughters: If a man dies and has no son (s), his property shall pass over to his daughter(s). Only if he has no daughter(s) shall his property pass on to any other male relatives. (Num 27:8-11) It would be easy to denigrate this decision from a mdoern viepoint and ask, 'So why didn't God say daughters should inherit even when there are sons?' However, as conservative as it appears to us, the new law was indeed a revolutionary change in the world at that time. Furthermore, the term "inherit' is somewhat misleading, for in modern usage it refers to ANY receipt of money or property from the deceased. In Jewish law, however, while sons have priority in "inheritance", daughters (and widows) have priority in "maintenance". Maintencance is actually an open-ended inheritance. That is, before a fixed amount is left to each son, a man's widow and daughters must be given enout to support them, "in the style to which they are accustomed", until their own deaths or (re)marriage. This means that if the estate is small, by the time the women are provided for, there may be nothing left for the sons! In effect, widows and daughters usually ended up with as much as, if not more than, sons did from the estate of a deceased man! That this system is meant to favor women is stated explicitly in the Mishnah. "When one dies and leaves sons and daughters, if the estate is large, the sons inherit and the duaghers are maintained; if the estate is small, the duaghers are maintained and the sons go begging. Admon (a judge of civil law in Jersusalem) stated, "Must I be at a disadvantage because I am male?" R. Gamliel said "I see what Amon means" (BB. 9:1; Ket. 13:3). His sympathy for Admon's view, however, did not change the law. A feminist is likely to think that equality would be better for women than favoritism. That sounds fine in theory, but in practice it would be devasting, because it presumes a basis of economic equality that simply does not exist--then OR now! "No fault divorce" is a modern example of this. Treating men and women as equals under divorce law has only enriched the men and impoverished women, for without alimony, a so-called "privilege", a divorced woman's income declines by 73 percent in the first year while that of a divorced man increases by 42 percent." Anyway, chew on this for a bit. I think the argument applies to affirmative action towards blacks. Equality might SOUND better than favoritism but it is in fact devasting because economic equality for blacks does not exist. Date: Sunday, July 20, 1997 10:09pm Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 739427 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739424, Reply to #739414, Reply to #739375, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>VI>On this point, I have absolutely NO DOUBTS. Indeed, as I have written VI>KK>VI>to Kkid I believe that the Messiah will NOT come until and unless Jews VI>KK>VI>treat women as full and equal members of the religion. VI>KK>I haven't said this in quite a while here so I may as well state it VI>KK>again now. In the orthodox Jewish religion there are separate groupings VI>KK>even among the men. We believe that everyone has a role to play and VI>KK>everyones role is just as important. VI>In my opinion the Orthodox exclusion of females from a minyan and the VI>prohibition against women reading from the Torah scroll constitutes VI>places women in an inferior role. What is Kol isha if not sexism? Sounds like exclusion to me, too. :) Ever considered coming over to Christianity, Vida? *chuckle* Date: Monday, July 21, 1997 6:57am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739450 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739427, Reply to #739424, Reply to #739414, R*) (1 reply) SB>VI>KK>VI>On this point, I have absolutely NO DOUBTS. Indeed, as I have writ SB>VI>KK>VI>to Kkid I believe that the Messiah will NOT come until and unless J SB>VI>KK>VI>treat women as full and equal members of the religion. SB>VI>KK>I haven't said this in quite a while here so I may as well state it SB>VI>KK>again now. In the orthodox Jewish religion there are separate grouping SB>VI>KK>even among the men. We believe that everyone has a role to play and SB>VI>KK>everyones role is just as important. SB>VI>In my opinion the Orthodox exclusion of females from a minyan and the SB>VI>prohibition against women reading from the Torah scroll constitutes SB>VI>places women in an inferior role. What is Kol isha if not sexism? SB>Sounds like exclusion to me, too. :) Ever considered coming over to SB>Christianity, Vida? *chuckle* No thanks Sam. :) The alternative to Orthodox Judaism is Liberal/Progressive/Transformative Judaism. Date: Monday, July 21, 1997 3:08pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739487 To: Rand Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739334) RA>You seem to have missed my post. I'd really like to know your answers, so RA>I've reposted the questions... RA>In a message dated 07-17-97 Steve Flur wrote to Rand : RA>RA>SF> I do not disagree with you that established practices have not been RA>RA>SF> equatible to women, however, I will not play G-d nor his/her RA>RA>spokeperson RA>RA>SF> by labeling what I do not agree with as a sin. RA>RA>So you are an Orthodox Jew who does not accept the binding nature of RA>RA>halacha? RA>RA>TANSTAAFL, RA>RA>Rand RA>SF> Much of how women are treated is far from halachic. Is there a halacha RA>SF> which clearly states a woman my not learn the same as a man or that RA>SF> smicha is limited to males? RA>First, your comment was far broader than merely whether women can get smicha RA>You said that you will not label what you disagree with a sin. I think it's RA>sin to murder, which, as I recall, was the example Vida used when she called RA>you a moral relativist. Is that sin, or just something disagreeable? RA>Secondly, I'm unsure as to whether there is a halacha regarding smicha or RA>study (I tend to doubt study, at the very least) but there are certainly RA>halachot regarding minyanim, aliyot, and the like. RA>So I guess my questions to you are these: RA>1) Is halacha binding? RA>1a) Is there such a thing as sin? RA>2) If so, can you pick and choose? That is, "Well, I just don't think eatin RA>pork is a sin, though of course lighting a fire on Shabbos is." RA>TANSTAAFL, RA>Rand RA>--- RA> * TIMM 1.3 * I'm Pro-Choice on Everything! Yes Yes No Is your moot court exercise over yet? Date: Monday, July 21, 1997 3:09pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739488 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739374, Reply to #739315, Reply to #739291, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandmother, I do not have a VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue with G-d. VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>Cute, very cute VI>SF>VI>SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddish VI>SF>VI>Just about anything sounds more profound in Yiddish. It's a very VI>SF>VI>earthy, gutsy langugage. :) VI>SF>It can sound different depending on which dialect you are using. VI>That I wouldn't know. Personally I only know a few choice words of VI>Yiddish. VI>My father was a native Yiddish speaker, but my mom didn't speak VI>Yiddish. So my childhood home was anglophone only. VI>I remember my father speaking to his father in Yiddish. And when my VI>father wanted to drive me crazy he would speak to me in VI>Yiddish--because he knew I didn't understand! :) Actually I took yiddish as a language for a year in college. Date: Monday, July 21, 1997 3:10pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739489 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739375, Reply to #739316, Reply to #739292, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I do not disagree with you that established practices h VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>equatible to women, however, I will not play G-d nor hi VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>by labeling what I do not agree with as a sin. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That's easy for you to say. You're a man. You're enjoyin VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>privelege. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Again, I will say that I totally agree about women within the VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>community, however, sin I leave to G-d. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>And I say any class based discrimination is sin. And it is doub VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>sin when it is done in G-d's name. VI>SF>VI>SF>Wrong...YES! Sin......I will let you know as soon as G-d tells me. VI>SF>VI>G-d tells me...and boy is SHE pissed! VI>SF>You have a more direct line. VI>On this point, I have absolutely NO DOUBTS. Indeed, as I have written VI>to Kkid I believe that the Messiah will NOT come until and unless Jews VI>treat women as full and equal members of the religion. Talking about my family again? Date: Monday, July 21, 1997 3:11pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739490 To: Vida Re: Leaving for Elat Chayyim (Reply to #739410) (1 reply) VI>I'm leaving to go to Elat Chayyim for a week tommorrow. I'll be gone VI>till next Sunday. Mainly for the benefit of Sam Beckett, let me VI>explain that Elat Chayyim is a Jewish renewal retreat that I have been VI>going to for a week for the past three years. VI>Unfortunately, Reb Zalman had to cancel his class because of health VI>reasons. So I won't have a chance to take a class with him again this VI>year. I was really looking forward to learning from Reb Zalman because VI>he is such a dynamic personality. So it is very sad for me that he VI>won't be there. VI>However, I will be taking a class called "Prophetess, Priestess and VI>Prostitute: Archetypes of Jewish Women's Sexuality, Sprituality and VI>Power". I'm sure I'll have more to say about this class when I get VI>back! I am sure you will! ENJOY and LEARN! Date: Monday, July 21, 1997 3:12pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739491 To: Nightbird Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739416, Reply to #739314, Reply to #739272, R*) (2 replies) NI>SF>I>SF>NI>SF>I>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandmother, I do not ha NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue with G-d. NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Cute, very cute NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddish NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Wouldn't know, I don't know any yiddish :) NI>SF>NI>SF>NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * Unable to exit Windows. Try the door. NI>SF>NI>SF>Neither did I back then. NI>SF>NI>Ok fine, hey, I've sang in alot of diffrent laugaguages NI>SF>Did you always understand what you were singing? NI>Most of the time. NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * Mama said that stupid is as stupid does.-FG That would make it more meaningful. Date: Monday, July 21, 1997 3:50pm Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 739492 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739450, Reply to #739427, Reply to #739424, R*) (1 reply) Hey, cant fault a guy for trying, eh? :) *chuckle* Date: Monday, July 21, 1997 7:55pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 739493 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739424, Reply to #739414, Reply to #739375, R*) (2 replies) VI>KK>VI>On this point, I have absolutely NO DOUBTS. Indeed, as I have written VI>KK>VI>to Kkid I believe that the Messiah will NOT come until and unless Jews VI>KK>VI>treat women as full and equal members of the religion. VI>KK>I haven't said this in quite a while here so I may as well state it VI>KK>again now. In the orthodox Jewish religion there are separate groupings VI>KK>even among the men. We believe that everyone has a role to play and VI>KK>everyones role is just as important. VI>In my opinion the Orthodox exclusion of females from a minyan and the VI>prohibition against women reading from the Torah scroll constitutes VI>places women in an inferior role. What is Kol isha if not sexism? I will not repeat this thread again :-) but kol isha is G-d's way (or the Rabbi's way) of saying that males are undisciplined creatures who can not control their minds or actions, not only when they are in the presence of women but also when they hear a woman's voice! Hmmm...I guess it IS sexism! Date: Monday, July 21, 1997 8:35pm Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 739500 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739314, Reply to #739272, Reply to #739264, R*) (1 reply) SF>I>SF>NI>SF>I>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandmother, I do not have SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue with G-d. SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Cute, very cute SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddish SF>NI>SF>NI>Wouldn't know, I don't know any yiddish :) SF>NI>SF>NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * Unable to exit Windows. Try the door. SF>NI>SF>Neither did I back then. SF>NI>Ok fine, hey, I've sang in alot of diffrent laugaguages SF>Did you always understand what you were singing? I try to find out exactly what I'm singing. * OLX 2.1 TD * Bill D. Catt of Borg: You will be Ack!Thbbpt!imilated!!! Date: Monday, July 21, 1997 10:06pm Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 739506 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739491, Reply to #739416, Reply to #739314, R*) (1 reply) SF>I>SF>I>SF>NI>SF>I>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandmother, I do not SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue with G-d. SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Cute, very cute SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddish SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Wouldn't know, I don't know any yiddish :) SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * Unable to exit Windows. Try the door. SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>Neither did I back then. SF>NI>SF>NI>Ok fine, hey, I've sang in alot of diffrent laugaguages SF>NI>SF>Did you always understand what you were singing? SF>NI>Most of the time. SF>NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * Mama said that stupid is as stupid does.-FG SF>That would make it more meaningful. Yes! * OLX 2.1 TD * I thought the book was blue until it was read. Date: Tuesday, July 22, 1997 9:49am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739523 To: Nightbird Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739500, Reply to #739314, Reply to #739272, R*) (1 reply) NI>SF>I>SF>NI>SF>I>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandmother, I do not ha NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue with G-d. NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Cute, very cute NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddish NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Wouldn't know, I don't know any yiddish :) NI>SF>NI>SF>NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * Unable to exit Windows. Try the door. NI>SF>NI>SF>Neither did I back then. NI>SF>NI>Ok fine, hey, I've sang in alot of diffrent laugaguages NI>SF>Did you always understand what you were singing? NI>I try to find out exactly what I'm singing. NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * Bill D. Catt of Borg: You will be Ack!Thbbpt!imilated!!! Which would then have you sing with greater feeling. Date: Tuesday, July 22, 1997 9:50am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739524 To: Nightbird Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739506, Reply to #739491, Reply to #739416, R*) (1 reply) NI>SF>I>SF>I>SF>NI>SF>I>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandmother, I do n NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue with G-d. NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Cute, very cute NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddish NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Wouldn't know, I don't know any yiddish :) NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * Unable to exit Windows. Try the door. NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>Neither did I back then. NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Ok fine, hey, I've sang in alot of diffrent laugaguages NI>SF>NI>SF>Did you always understand what you were singing? NI>SF>NI>Most of the time. NI>SF>NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * Mama said that stupid is as stupid does.-FG NI>SF>That would make it more meaningful. NI>Yes! NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * I thought the book was blue until it was read. For both you and the audience. Date: Tuesday, July 22, 1997 11:26am Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 739537 To: Kkid Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739493, Reply to #739424, Reply to #739414, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>KK>VI>On this point, I have absolutely NO DOUBTS. Indeed, as I have writ KK>VI>KK>VI>to Kkid I believe that the Messiah will NOT come until and unless J KK>VI>KK>VI>treat women as full and equal members of the religion. KK>VI>KK>I haven't said this in quite a while here so I may as well state it KK>VI>KK>again now. In the orthodox Jewish religion there are separate grouping KK>VI>KK>even among the men. We believe that everyone has a role to play and KK>VI>KK>everyones role is just as important. KK>VI>In my opinion the Orthodox exclusion of females from a minyan and the KK>VI>prohibition against women reading from the Torah scroll constitutes KK>VI>places women in an inferior role. What is Kol isha if not sexism? KK>I will not repeat this thread again :-) KK>but kol isha is G-d's way (or the Rabbi's way) of saying that males are KK>undisciplined creatures who can not control their minds or actions, not KK>only when they are in the presence of women but also when they hear a KK>woman's voice! Hmmm...I guess it IS sexism! Like I said before..sounds like sexism for me. :) Doesnt allow for men who are mannered and disciplined, eh? :) Date: Tuesday, July 22, 1997 6:01pm Forum: Theology From: Steve C Msg#: 739543 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739537, Reply to #739493, Reply to #739424, R*) (1 reply) SB>KK>I will not repeat this thread again :-) SB>KK>but kol isha is G-d's way (or the Rabbi's way) of saying that males are SB>KK>undisciplined creatures who can not control their minds or actions, not SB>KK>only when they are in the presence of women but also when they hear a SB>KK>woman's voice! Hmmm...I guess it IS sexism! SB>Like I said before..sounds like sexism for me. :) Doesnt allow for men SB>who are mannered and disciplined, eh? :) Simple explanation. You and I are a minority. :) --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ HEY ROCKY, watch me pull a rabbit outta my hat! Date: Tuesday, July 22, 1997 6:10pm Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 739544 To: Steve C Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739543, Reply to #739537, Reply to #739493, R*) SC>SB>KK>I will not repeat this thread again :-) SC>SB>KK>but kol isha is G-d's way (or the Rabbi's way) of saying that males ar SC>SB>KK>undisciplined creatures who can not control their minds or actions, no SC>SB>KK>only when they are in the presence of women but also when they hear a SC>SB>KK>woman's voice! Hmmm...I guess it IS sexism! SC>SB>Like I said before..sounds like sexism for me. :) Doesnt allow for men SC>SB>who are mannered and disciplined, eh? :) SC>Simple explanation. You and I are a minority. :) SC>--- SC> þ OLX 2.1 TD þ HEY ROCKY, watch me pull a rabbit outta my hat! The way THAT sounds, we're an IMPOSSIBILITY! :) Date: Tuesday, July 22, 1997 8:15pm Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 739550 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739523, Reply to #739500, Reply to #739314, R*) (1 reply) SF>I>SF>I>SF>NI>SF>I>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandmother, I do not SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue with G-d. SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Cute, very cute SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddish SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Wouldn't know, I don't know any yiddish :) SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * Unable to exit Windows. Try the door. SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>Neither did I back then. SF>NI>SF>NI>Ok fine, hey, I've sang in alot of diffrent laugaguages SF>NI>SF>Did you always understand what you were singing? SF>NI>I try to find out exactly what I'm singing. SF>NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * Bill D. Catt of Borg: You will be Ack!Thbbpt!imilated!!! SF>Which would then have you sing with greater feeling. Yes, & I really have a need to know what I am singing. So I don't make a total fool out of myself. * OLX 2.1 TD * The only time I open my mouth is to change feet! Date: Tuesday, July 22, 1997 8:15pm Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 739551 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739524, Reply to #739506, Reply to #739491, R*) (1 reply) SF>I>SF>I>SF>I>SF>NI>SF>I>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandmother, I do SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue with G-d. SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Cute, very cute SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddish SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Wouldn't know, I don't know any yiddish :) SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * Unable to exit Windows. Try the door. SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>Neither did I back then. SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Ok fine, hey, I've sang in alot of diffrent laugaguages SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>Did you always understand what you were singing? SF>NI>SF>NI>Most of the time. SF>NI>SF>NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * Mama said that stupid is as stupid does.-FG SF>NI>SF>That would make it more meaningful. SF>NI>Yes! SF>NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * I thought the book was blue until it was read. SF>For both you and the audience. Of course, I hope that the audience would have a copy of the song in english but hey, it doesn't always work out that way. * OLX 2.1 TD * "What's up, Doc?"-Michael Garibaldi Date: Wednesday, July 23, 1997 10:26am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739559 To: Nightbird Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739550, Reply to #739523, Reply to #739500, R*) (1 reply) NI>SF>I>SF>I>SF>NI>SF>I>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandmother, I do n NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue with G-d. NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Cute, very cute NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddish NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Wouldn't know, I don't know any yiddish :) NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * Unable to exit Windows. Try the door. NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>Neither did I back then. NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Ok fine, hey, I've sang in alot of diffrent laugaguages NI>SF>NI>SF>Did you always understand what you were singing? NI>SF>NI>I try to find out exactly what I'm singing. NI>SF>NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * Bill D. Catt of Borg: You will be Ack!Thbbpt!imilated! NI>SF>Which would then have you sing with greater feeling. NI>Yes, & I really have a need to know what I am singing. NI>So I don't make a total fool out of myself. NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * The only time I open my mouth is to change feet! I doubt you would ever do that! Date: Wednesday, July 23, 1997 10:27am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739560 To: Nightbird Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739551, Reply to #739524, Reply to #739506, R*) (1 reply) NI>SF>I>SF>I>SF>I>SF>NI>SF>I>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandmother, I NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue with G-d. NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Cute, very cute NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddish NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Wouldn't know, I don't know any yiddish :) NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * Unable to exit Windows. Try the door NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>Neither did I back then. NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Ok fine, hey, I've sang in alot of diffrent laugaguages NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>Did you always understand what you were singing? NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Most of the time. NI>SF>NI>SF>NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * Mama said that stupid is as stupid does.-FG NI>SF>NI>SF>That would make it more meaningful. NI>SF>NI>Yes! NI>SF>NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * I thought the book was blue until it was read. NI>SF>For both you and the audience. NI>Of course, I hope that the audience would have a copy of the song in NI>english but hey, it doesn't always work out that way. NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * "What's up, Doc?"-Michael Garibaldi And it's up to you to convey the meaning. Date: Thursday, July 24, 1997 8:36pm Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 739597 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739559, Reply to #739550, Reply to #739523, R*) (1 reply) SF>I>SF>I>SF>I>SF>NI>SF>I>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandmother, I do SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue with G-d. SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Cute, very cute SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddish SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Wouldn't know, I don't know any yiddish :) SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * Unable to exit Windows. Try the door. SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>Neither did I back then. SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Ok fine, hey, I've sang in alot of diffrent laugaguages SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>Did you always understand what you were singing? SF>NI>SF>NI>I try to find out exactly what I'm singing. SF>NI>SF>NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * Bill D. Catt of Borg: You will be Ack!Thbbpt!imilat SF>NI>SF>Which would then have you sing with greater feeling. SF>NI>Yes, & I really have a need to know what I am singing. SF>NI>So I don't make a total fool out of myself. SF>I doubt you would ever do that! Thanks alot. * OLX 2.1 TD * "Mulder! FBI! Drop that sword, McCloud - I have questions Date: Thursday, July 24, 1997 8:36pm Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 739598 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739560, Reply to #739551, Reply to #739524, R*) (1 reply) SF>I>SF>I>SF>I>SF>I>SF>NI>SF>I>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandmother, SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue with G SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Cute, very cute SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddish SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Wouldn't know, I don't know any yiddish :) SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * Unable to exit Windows. Try the d SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>Neither did I back then. SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Ok fine, hey, I've sang in alot of diffrent laugaguages SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>Did you always understand what you were singing? SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Most of the time. SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * Mama said that stupid is as stupid does.-FG SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>That would make it more meaningful. SF>NI>SF>NI>Yes! SF>NI>SF>NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * I thought the book was blue until it was read. SF>NI>SF>For both you and the audience. SF>NI>Of course, I hope that the audience would have a copy of the song in SF>NI>english but hey, it doesn't always work out that way. SF>NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * "What's up, Doc?"-Michael Garibaldi SF>And it's up to you to convey the meaning. Bingo!!!! * OLX 2.1 TD * Space must have seemed a lot bigger, then. -Janeway Date: Friday, July 25, 1997 8:50am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739605 To: Nightbird Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739597, Reply to #739559, Reply to #739550, R*) NI>SF>I>SF>I>SF>I>SF>NI>SF>I>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandmother, I NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue with G-d. NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Cute, very cute NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddish NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Wouldn't know, I don't know any yiddish :) NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * Unable to exit Windows. Try the door NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>Neither did I back then. NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Ok fine, hey, I've sang in alot of diffrent laugaguages NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>Did you always understand what you were singing? NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>I try to find out exactly what I'm singing. NI>SF>NI>SF>NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * Bill D. Catt of Borg: You will be Ack!Thbbpt!imi NI>SF>NI>SF>Which would then have you sing with greater feeling. NI>SF>NI>Yes, & I really have a need to know what I am singing. NI>SF>NI>So I don't make a total fool out of myself. NI>SF>I doubt you would ever do that! NI>Thanks alot. NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * "Mulder! FBI! Drop that sword, McCloud - I have questions You are most welcome. Date: Friday, July 25, 1997 8:51am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739606 To: Nightbird Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739598, Reply to #739560, Reply to #739551, R*) (1 reply) NI>SF>I>SF>I>SF>I>SF>I>SF>NI>SF>I>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandmoth NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue wit NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Cute, very cute NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddish NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Wouldn't know, I don't know any yiddish :) NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * Unable to exit Windows. Try th NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>Neither did I back then. NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Ok fine, hey, I've sang in alot of diffrent laugagua NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>Did you always understand what you were singing? NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Most of the time. NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * Mama said that stupid is as stupid does.-F NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>That would make it more meaningful. NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Yes! NI>SF>NI>SF>NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * I thought the book was blue until it was read. NI>SF>NI>SF>For both you and the audience. NI>SF>NI>Of course, I hope that the audience would have a copy of the song in NI>SF>NI>english but hey, it doesn't always work out that way. NI>SF>NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * "What's up, Doc?"-Michael Garibaldi NI>SF>And it's up to you to convey the meaning. NI>Bingo!!!! NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * Space must have seemed a lot bigger, then. -Janeway B-14 Date: Sunday, July 27, 1997 5:27pm Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 739613 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739606, Reply to #739598, Reply to #739560, R*) SF>NI>SF>And it's up to you to convey the meaning. SF>NI>Bingo!!!! SF>B-14 Cute * OLX 2.1 TD * After dinner, he said, "Your modem or mine?" Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 1:30am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739620 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Vida's prayer (2 replies) Well folks I am back from Elat Chayyim. I had a faboulous, faboulous week. Very inspiring. I ended up NOT taking the course that I wrote about before I left. Instead, I took a class with Marcia Prager, a teacher and rabbi who I absolutely adore, on "Siddur (the Jewish prayer book) as Spirtual road map". The class was intellectual stimulating and very uplifining. I entended to write more on this class at a later time. For now, I just wanted to share with you a prayer which I have adopted as my own. I found this prayer davening (a Jewish word for 'praying') the Amidah (the silent standing prayer) in the text of "Or chadash" (a siddur which they use at Elat Chayyim). I adopted the prayer somewhat, changing the "us" in the original prayer to "me". The prayer goes as follows: Source of Love Help me to live my life with such ease That my fears melt away like dew And my rigidities Roll off like surf on the beach. Then I cannot but give and take affection freely As if it were most natural Take me into your arms O source of blessing That I may be one with You. Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 2:26am Forum: Theology From: Dti Msg#: 739630 To: Vida Re: Vida's prayer (Reply to #739620) (1 reply) VI>The prayer goes as follows: VI>Source of Love VI>Help me to live my life with such ease VI>That my fears melt away like dew VI>And my rigidities VI>Roll off like surf on the beach. VI>Then I cannot but give and take affection freely VI>As if it were most natural VI>Take me into your arms VI>O source of blessing VI>That I may be one with You. This is a lovely fine thing and words to live by on any day. Best... --- * SLMR 2.0 * It Will All Be Over Soon... Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 3:34am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739644 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739488, Reply to #739374, Reply to #739315, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandmother, I do not hav SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue with G-d. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>Cute, very cute SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddish SF>VI>SF>VI>Just about anything sounds more profound in Yiddish. It's a very SF>VI>SF>VI>earthy, gutsy langugage. :) SF>VI>SF>It can sound different depending on which dialect you are using. SF>VI>That I wouldn't know. Personally I only know a few choice words of SF>VI>Yiddish. SF>VI>My father was a native Yiddish speaker, but my mom didn't speak SF>VI>Yiddish. So my childhood home was anglophone only. SF>VI>I remember my father speaking to his father in Yiddish. And when my SF>VI>father wanted to drive me crazy he would speak to me in SF>VI>Yiddish--because he knew I didn't understand! :) SF>Actually I took yiddish as a language for a year in college. Steve, I am still struggling to learn Hebrew! I dropped out of the "Advanced Beginner's class" which I took at BJ because I didn't like the teacher. I am considering taking a Hebrew 2 class with the teacher I had at Brooklyn Heights synagogue because I like her better. The problem is: TIME! TIME! TIME!! Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 3:35am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739645 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739489, Reply to #739375, Reply to #739316, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I do not disagree with you that established practice SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>equatible to women, however, I will not play G-d nor SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>by labeling what I do not agree with as a sin. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That's easy for you to say. You're a man. You're enjo SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>privelege. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Again, I will say that I totally agree about women within SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>community, however, sin I leave to G-d. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>And I say any class based discrimination is sin. And it is d SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>sin when it is done in G-d's name. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Wrong...YES! Sin......I will let you know as soon as G-d tells m SF>VI>SF>VI>G-d tells me...and boy is SHE pissed! SF>VI>SF>You have a more direct line. SF>VI>On this point, I have absolutely NO DOUBTS. Indeed, as I have written SF>VI>to Kkid I believe that the Messiah will NOT come until and unless Jews SF>VI>treat women as full and equal members of the religion. SF>Talking about my family again? My family too Steve. All Jews are distant cousins. Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 3:37am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739646 To: Steve Flur Re: Leaving for Elat Chayyim (Reply to #739490, Reply to #739410) (1 reply) SF>VI>I'm leaving to go to Elat Chayyim for a week tommorrow. I'll be gone SF>VI>till next Sunday. Mainly for the benefit of Sam Beckett, let me SF>VI>explain that Elat Chayyim is a Jewish renewal retreat that I have been SF>VI>going to for a week for the past three years. SF>VI>Unfortunately, Reb Zalman had to cancel his class because of health SF>VI>reasons. So I won't have a chance to take a class with him again this SF>VI>year. I was really looking forward to learning from Reb Zalman because SF>VI>he is such a dynamic personality. So it is very sad for me that he SF>VI>won't be there. SF>VI>However, I will be taking a class called "Prophetess, Priestess and SF>VI>Prostitute: Archetypes of Jewish Women's Sexuality, Sprituality and SF>VI>Power". I'm sure I'll have more to say about this class when I get SF>VI>back! SF>I am sure you will! SF>ENJOY and LEARN! Thank you! Thank you! I did not get your message on this reality plane until I got back to Elat Chayyim. But it did transmit itself clearly while I was there. I had a very full week up there--as witnessed by the fact that I am writing this now at 3:30 AM. I woke up in the middle of the night with my head buzzing with energy. Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 3:47am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739647 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739491, Reply to #739416, Reply to #739314, R*) (1 reply) SF>NI>SF>I>SF>NI>SF>I>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandmother, I do not SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue with G-d. SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Cute, very cute SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddish SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Wouldn't know, I don't know any yiddish :) SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>Neither did I back then. SF>NI>SF>NI>Ok fine, hey, I've sang in alot of diffrent laugaguages SF>NI>SF>Did you always understand what you were singing? SF>NI>Most of the time. SF>That would make it more meaningful. That's not necessarily true Steve. As you know I have been davening (praying for all you nonJews) regularly at BJ where the prayer service is almost entirely in Hebrew. At this point I can more or less read the siddur phoenicatically (the vowels still give me problems) and I can pick out a few words hear and there in the prayers (ie. kodush = holy, baruch= blessed, etc. ) but I still can not understand most of the words. At Friday night service this last week at Elat Chayyim the service was mostly in English and I found it to be flat and unmoving. On Saturday morning, the service was in Hebrew and I found myself uplifted. In a way that I can not quite explain the Hebrew prayers speak to my Jewish soul. I can diffently hear my ancestors calling to me when I sing a prayer in Hebrew, even though I know I am probably misprouncing words and making mistakes. So in this case for me, I get to a deeper prayer space in a language which I really don't understand than in a language I do understand. Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 3:47am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739648 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739492, Reply to #739450, Reply to #739427, R*) (1 reply) SB>Hey, cant fault a guy for trying, eh? :) *chuckle* Not at all, my friend. :) Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 3:57am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739649 To: Kkid Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739493, Reply to #739424, Reply to #739414, R*) (2 replies) KK>VI>KK>VI>On this point, I have absolutely NO DOUBTS. Indeed, as I have writ KK>VI>KK>VI>to Kkid I believe that the Messiah will NOT come until and unless J KK>VI>KK>VI>treat women as full and equal members of the religion. KK>VI>KK>I haven't said this in quite a while here so I may as well state it KK>VI>KK>again now. In the orthodox Jewish religion there are separate grouping KK>VI>KK>even among the men. We believe that everyone has a role to play and KK>VI>KK>everyones role is just as important. KK>VI>In my opinion the Orthodox exclusion of females from a minyan and the KK>VI>prohibition against women reading from the Torah scroll constitutes KK>VI>places women in an inferior role. What is Kol isha if not sexism? KK>I will not repeat this thread again :-) KK>but kol isha is G-d's way (or the Rabbi's way) of saying that males are KK>undisciplined creatures who can not control their minds or actions, not KK>only when they are in the presence of women but also when they hear a KK>woman's voice! Hmmm...I guess it IS sexism! I have a dialy mediation book I use called "100 Blessings Every Day: Daily Tweleve Step Recovery Affirmations, Exercies for Personal Growth & Renewal Reflecting Seasons of the Jewish Year" by Rabbi Kerry M. Olitzky. The book has a page for each day of the Jewish year. Each page has a quote from a traditional Jewish source followed by the author's comments on that quote. Anyway for Kislev Day 22 (which was Suday July 27) the quote was from Zohar ii,128a: "The one truly called a human being is the one who subdues his impulses." Anyway, the fact that heterosexual men might find it heard to control their sexual impulses when they hear a woman's voice or sit next to a woman does NOT justify kol isha or the continued practice of sexual segregration in Orthodox synagogues. It is up to heterosexual men to control their impulses. If not, they can not truly call themselves a human being! Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 4:01am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739650 To: Dti Re: Vida's prayer (Reply to #739630, Reply to #739620) DT>VI>The prayer goes as follows: DT>VI>Source of Love DT>VI>Help me to live my life with such ease DT>VI>That my fears melt away like dew DT>VI>And my rigidities DT>VI>Roll off like surf on the beach. DT>VI>Then I cannot but give and take affection freely DT>VI>As if it were most natural DT>VI>Take me into your arms DT>VI>O source of blessing DT>VI>That I may be one with You. DT> This is a lovely fine thing and words to live by on any day. Best... DT>--- Thank you Adam. :) Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 6:41am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739652 To: Kkid Re: The Book of Our Heritage (1 reply) I thought you would be pleased to know that I bought the three volume set "The Book of Our Heritage" by Eliyahu Kitov at the Elat Chayyim bookstore this past week. Actually I purchased the newly revised English language edition which is hot off the presses. Since the book starts in Tishrey I am planning to start reading the book over the High Holidays. I figure at each Rosh Hodesh I will read the section for that month. :) Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 6:51am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739654 To: Sam Beckett Re: Reb Yeshua's teaching During Marcia Prager's class at Elat Chayyim she told us a little story that made me think of you that I would like to share with you. In order to understand the story you have to know that Jewish prayer services can frequently be very long. You should also know that the title Reb is a very, very affectionate Jewish title for Rabbi. Additional a rebbe is kind of a super rabbi--a great spirtual leader. Anyway, the story is that a simple laborer came up to Reb Yeshua and said to him: "Rebbe. I am a laborer. I have to work by the sweat of my brow and I do not have time to sit and pray all morning long. How can I satisfy my obligation to pray if I only have five minutes to pray?" Reb Yeshua thought for a minute. And he then taught the laborer to recite "The Lord's Prayer" which Reb Marcia taught us was composed of "The Top Ten Hits of Jewish Prayer." Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 7:08am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739657 To: ** ALL ** Re: The Raddish Niggun (1 reply) Marcia Prager started her class at Elat Chayyim telling us the story of "The Raddish Niggun". It was a very reassuring story for a "prayer beginner" like myself. One word of background. A niggun is a wordless melody. The story is as follows: There was a simple Jewish farmer. He was illiterate. But he loved G-d very, very much. Every day except Sabbos (the Sabbath) he worked in his fields planting and harvesting his crops. And as he worked he sang his niggun. And sometimes, as he worked he added words to the niggun: "If I had raddishes G-d, I would give them to you. And if I had carrots, I would give them too. Thank you G-d for the gifts you give to me.". Then one day a yeshiva student walked by the field and heard the farmer singing his niggun. And the yeshiva student said to the farmer: "What are you doing?" And the farmer said: " I am praying." And the yeshiva student said to the farmer: "You ignoramus! Those are not the right words for prayer! G-d would never listen to such a silly song!" And the farmer heard the words and he felt very sad because what did he know? He never had the chance to study like the Yeshiva student. So the next day the farmer came out and worked. And he worked very hard. And he still loved G-d. But he stopped singing his niggun. And he did this for a month. Each day he came out and worked very hard. But he did not sing his niggun. And after a month, an angel appeared before the farmer with tears in his eyes. And the angel said to the farmer: "Why have you stopped singing that niggun when you work?" And the farmer said: "The yeshiva student told me that I was ignorant and didn't know how to pray rightly." Then the angel said to the farmer: "Don't you know farmer that when the angels sing to praise G-d they sing to G-d (singing the same tune as the farmer had sung) : 'If I had raddishes G-d I would give them to you, If I had carrots I would give them too. Thank you G-d for the gifts you give to me." Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 1:33pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739677 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739644, Reply to #739488, Reply to #739374, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandmother, I do not VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue with G-d. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>Cute, very cute VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddish VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Just about anything sounds more profound in Yiddish. It's a ver VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>earthy, gutsy langugage. :) VI>SF>VI>SF>It can sound different depending on which dialect you are using. VI>SF>VI>That I wouldn't know. Personally I only know a few choice words of VI>SF>VI>Yiddish. VI>SF>VI>My father was a native Yiddish speaker, but my mom didn't speak VI>SF>VI>Yiddish. So my childhood home was anglophone only. VI>SF>VI>I remember my father speaking to his father in Yiddish. And when my VI>SF>VI>father wanted to drive me crazy he would speak to me in VI>SF>VI>Yiddish--because he knew I didn't understand! :) VI>SF>Actually I took yiddish as a language for a year in college. VI>Steve, I am still struggling to learn Hebrew! I dropped out of the VI>"Advanced Beginner's class" which I took at BJ because I didn't like VI>the teacher. VI>I am considering taking a Hebrew 2 class with the teacher I had at VI>Brooklyn Heights synagogue because I like her better. The problem is: VI>TIME! TIME! TIME!! You will find the time if you really want to. Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 1:34pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739678 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739645, Reply to #739489, Reply to #739375, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I do not disagree with you that established pract VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>equatible to women, however, I will not play G-d VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>by labeling what I do not agree with as a sin. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That's easy for you to say. You're a man. You're e VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>privelege. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Again, I will say that I totally agree about women with VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>community, however, sin I leave to G-d. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>And I say any class based discrimination is sin. And it i VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>sin when it is done in G-d's name. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Wrong...YES! Sin......I will let you know as soon as G-d tell VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>G-d tells me...and boy is SHE pissed! VI>SF>VI>SF>You have a more direct line. VI>SF>VI>On this point, I have absolutely NO DOUBTS. Indeed, as I have written VI>SF>VI>to Kkid I believe that the Messiah will NOT come until and unless Jews VI>SF>VI>treat women as full and equal members of the religion. VI>SF>Talking about my family again? VI>My family too Steve. All Jews are distant cousins. But some are closer than others. Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 1:35pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739679 To: Vida Re: Leaving for Elat Chayyim (Reply to #739646, Reply to #739490, Reply to #739410) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>I'm leaving to go to Elat Chayyim for a week tommorrow. I'll be gone VI>SF>VI>till next Sunday. Mainly for the benefit of Sam Beckett, let me VI>SF>VI>explain that Elat Chayyim is a Jewish renewal retreat that I have been VI>SF>VI>going to for a week for the past three years. VI>SF>VI>Unfortunately, Reb Zalman had to cancel his class because of health VI>SF>VI>reasons. So I won't have a chance to take a class with him again this VI>SF>VI>year. I was really looking forward to learning from Reb Zalman becaus VI>SF>VI>he is such a dynamic personality. So it is very sad for me that he VI>SF>VI>won't be there. VI>SF>VI>However, I will be taking a class called "Prophetess, Priestess and VI>SF>VI>Prostitute: Archetypes of Jewish Women's Sexuality, Sprituality and VI>SF>VI>Power". I'm sure I'll have more to say about this class when I get VI>SF>VI>back! VI>SF>I am sure you will! VI>SF>ENJOY and LEARN! VI>Thank you! Thank you! VI>I did not get your message on this reality plane until I got back to VI>Elat Chayyim. But it did transmit itself clearly while I was there. VI>I had a very full week up there--as witnessed by the fact that I am VI>writing this now at 3:30 AM. I woke up in the middle of the night with VI>my head buzzing with energy. Now the task is to channel that energy Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 1:36pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739680 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739647, Reply to #739491, Reply to #739416, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>NI>SF>I>SF>NI>SF>I>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandmother, I do VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue with G-d. VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Cute, very cute VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddish VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Wouldn't know, I don't know any yiddish :) VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>Neither did I back then. VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Ok fine, hey, I've sang in alot of diffrent laugaguages VI>SF>NI>SF>Did you always understand what you were singing? VI>SF>NI>Most of the time. VI>SF>That would make it more meaningful. VI>That's not necessarily true Steve. VI>As you know I have been davening (praying for all you nonJews) VI>regularly at BJ where the prayer service is almost entirely in Hebrew. VI>At this point I can more or less read the siddur phoenicatically (the VI>vowels still give me problems) and I can pick out a few words hear and VI>there in the prayers (ie. kodush = holy, baruch= blessed, etc. ) but I VI>still can not understand most of the words. VI>At Friday night service this last week at Elat Chayyim the service was VI>mostly in English and I found it to be flat and unmoving. On Saturday VI>morning, the service was in Hebrew and I found myself uplifted. VI>In a way that I can not quite explain the Hebrew prayers speak to my VI>Jewish soul. I can diffently hear my ancestors calling to me when I VI>sing a prayer in Hebrew, even though I know I am probably misprouncing VI>words and making mistakes. So in this case for me, I get to a deeper VI>prayer space in a language which I really don't understand than in a VI>language I do understand. In your case you are feeling a personal connection to the language. Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 3:16pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 739682 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739649, Reply to #739493, Reply to #739424, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>I will not repeat this thread again :-) VI>KK>but kol isha is G-d's way (or the Rabbi's way) of saying that males are VI>KK>undisciplined creatures who can not control their minds or actions, not VI>KK>only when they are in the presence of women but also when they hear a VI>KK>woman's voice! Hmmm...I guess it IS sexism! VI>I have a dialy mediation book I use called "100 Blessings Every Day: VI>Daily Tweleve Step Recovery Affirmations, Exercies for Personal Growth VI>& Renewal Reflecting Seasons of the Jewish Year" by Rabbi Kerry M. VI>Olitzky. VI>The book has a page for each day of the Jewish year. Each page has a VI>quote from a traditional Jewish source followed by the author's VI>comments on that quote. VI>Anyway for Kislev Day 22 (which was Suday July 27) the quote was from VI>Zohar ii,128a: "The one truly called a human being is the one who VI>subdues his impulses." VI>Anyway, the fact that heterosexual men might find it heard to control VI>their sexual impulses when they hear a woman's voice or sit next to a VI>woman does NOT justify kol isha or the continued practice of sexual VI>segregration in Orthodox synagogues. VI>It is up to heterosexual men to control their impulses. If not, they VI>can not truly call themselves a human being! I will agree with part of your statement that it is up to men to control their impulses. But I can not agree with the latter part of your statement. Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 3:17pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 739683 To: Vida Re: The Book of Our Heritage (Reply to #739652) (1 reply) VI>I thought you would be pleased to know that I bought the three volume VI>set "The Book of Our Heritage" by Eliyahu Kitov at the Elat Chayyim VI>bookstore this past week. Actually I purchased the newly revised VI>English language edition which is hot off the presses. VI>Since the book starts in Tishrey I am planning to start reading the VI>book over the High Holidays. I figure at each Rosh Hodesh I will read VI>the section for that month. :) I hope you will really enjoy the book. Feel free to ask if there is something there you do not understand. Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 3:19pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 739684 To: Vida Re: The Raddish Niggun (Reply to #739657) (1 reply) Reminds me of another story but I don't have time to type it now :-( Hope I remember later! Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 3:19pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 739687 To: ** ALL ** Re: The Raddish Niggun (Copy by Calvin, Reply to #739657) -------------< COMMENTS BY Calvin >-------------- Kkid - nudge! ----------< END OF COMMENTS BY Calvin >---------- Reminds me of another story but I don't have time to type it now :-( Hope I remember later! Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 4:22pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739694 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739677, Reply to #739644, Reply to #739488, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandmother, I do n SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue with G-d. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>Cute, very cute SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddish SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Just about anything sounds more profound in Yiddish. It's a SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>earthy, gutsy langugage. :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>It can sound different depending on which dialect you are using. SF>VI>SF>VI>That I wouldn't know. Personally I only know a few choice words of SF>VI>SF>VI>Yiddish. SF>VI>SF>VI>My father was a native Yiddish speaker, but my mom didn't speak SF>VI>SF>VI>Yiddish. So my childhood home was anglophone only. SF>VI>SF>VI>I remember my father speaking to his father in Yiddish. And when SF>VI>SF>VI>father wanted to drive me crazy he would speak to me in SF>VI>SF>VI>Yiddish--because he knew I didn't understand! :) SF>VI>SF>Actually I took yiddish as a language for a year in college. SF>VI>Steve, I am still struggling to learn Hebrew! I dropped out of the SF>VI>"Advanced Beginner's class" which I took at BJ because I didn't like SF>VI>the teacher. SF>VI>I am considering taking a Hebrew 2 class with the teacher I had at SF>VI>Brooklyn Heights synagogue because I like her better. The problem is: SF>VI>TIME! TIME! TIME!! SF>You will find the time if you really want to. I have to prioritize and make a decision. I was also considering taking the Rabbis' course at BJ which is one the bible and Jewish prayer. I can't imagine finding time for Hebrew class, the Rabbis class and everything else I do. Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 4:24pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739695 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739678, Reply to #739645, Reply to #739489, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I do not disagree with you that established pr SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>equatible to women, however, I will not play G SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>by labeling what I do not agree with as a sin. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That's easy for you to say. You're a man. You'r SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>privelege. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Again, I will say that I totally agree about women w SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>community, however, sin I leave to G-d. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>And I say any class based discrimination is sin. And i SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>sin when it is done in G-d's name. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Wrong...YES! Sin......I will let you know as soon as G-d t SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>G-d tells me...and boy is SHE pissed! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You have a more direct line. SF>VI>SF>VI>On this point, I have absolutely NO DOUBTS. Indeed, as I have writ SF>VI>SF>VI>to Kkid I believe that the Messiah will NOT come until and unless J SF>VI>SF>VI>treat women as full and equal members of the religion. SF>VI>SF>Talking about my family again? SF>VI>My family too Steve. All Jews are distant cousins. SF>But some are closer than others. I find your claim that you are any closer of a family member to the Messiah than I to be totally and completely offensive. All Jews are the same. Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 4:25pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739696 To: Steve Flur Re: Leaving for Elat Chayyim (Reply to #739679, Reply to #739646, Reply to #739490, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>I'm leaving to go to Elat Chayyim for a week tommorrow. I'll be go SF>VI>SF>VI>till next Sunday. Mainly for the benefit of Sam Beckett, let me SF>VI>SF>VI>explain that Elat Chayyim is a Jewish renewal retreat that I have b SF>VI>SF>VI>going to for a week for the past three years. SF>VI>SF>VI>Unfortunately, Reb Zalman had to cancel his class because of health SF>VI>SF>VI>reasons. So I won't have a chance to take a class with him again t SF>VI>SF>VI>year. I was really looking forward to learning from Reb Zalman bec SF>VI>SF>VI>he is such a dynamic personality. So it is very sad for me that he SF>VI>SF>VI>won't be there. SF>VI>SF>VI>However, I will be taking a class called "Prophetess, Priestess and SF>VI>SF>VI>Prostitute: Archetypes of Jewish Women's Sexuality, Sprituality and SF>VI>SF>VI>Power". I'm sure I'll have more to say about this class when I get SF>VI>SF>VI>back! SF>VI>SF>I am sure you will! SF>VI>SF>ENJOY and LEARN! SF>VI>Thank you! Thank you! SF>VI>I did not get your message on this reality plane until I got back to SF>VI>Elat Chayyim. But it did transmit itself clearly while I was there. SF>VI>I had a very full week up there--as witnessed by the fact that I am SF>VI>writing this now at 3:30 AM. I woke up in the middle of the night with SF>VI>my head buzzing with energy. SF>Now the task is to channel that energy Yes. It will probably take me a few days to get back to normal. Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 4:27pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739697 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739680, Reply to #739647, Reply to #739491, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>I>SF>NI>SF>I>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandmother, I SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue with G-d. SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Cute, very cute SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddish SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Wouldn't know, I don't know any yiddish :) SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>Neither did I back then. SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Ok fine, hey, I've sang in alot of diffrent laugaguages SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>Did you always understand what you were singing? SF>VI>SF>NI>Most of the time. SF>VI>SF>That would make it more meaningful. SF>VI>That's not necessarily true Steve. SF>VI>As you know I have been davening (praying for all you nonJews) SF>VI>regularly at BJ where the prayer service is almost entirely in Hebrew. SF>VI>At this point I can more or less read the siddur phoenicatically (the SF>VI>vowels still give me problems) and I can pick out a few words hear and SF>VI>there in the prayers (ie. kodush = holy, baruch= blessed, etc. ) but I SF>VI>still can not understand most of the words. SF>VI>At Friday night service this last week at Elat Chayyim the service was SF>VI>mostly in English and I found it to be flat and unmoving. On Saturday SF>VI>morning, the service was in Hebrew and I found myself uplifted. SF>VI>In a way that I can not quite explain the Hebrew prayers speak to my SF>VI>Jewish soul. I can diffently hear my ancestors calling to me when I SF>VI>sing a prayer in Hebrew, even though I know I am probably misprouncing SF>VI>words and making mistakes. So in this case for me, I get to a deeper SF>VI>prayer space in a language which I really don't understand than in a SF>VI>language I do understand. SF>In your case you are feeling a personal connection to the language. Absolutely! Plus Hebrew, especially Biblical Hebrew, is a holy language that has a definite spirtual component. English is a completely mundane and secular language. So a prayer said in Hebrew is not the same as a prayer said in English. I believe I am also tuning into the spirtual component of the Hebrew language itself. Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 4:29pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739698 To: Kkid Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739682, Reply to #739649, Reply to #739493, R*) KK>VI>KK>I will not repeat this thread again :-) KK>VI>KK>but kol isha is G-d's way (or the Rabbi's way) of saying that males ar KK>VI>KK>undisciplined creatures who can not control their minds or actions, no KK>VI>KK>only when they are in the presence of women but also when they hear a KK>VI>KK>woman's voice! Hmmm...I guess it IS sexism! KK>VI>I have a dialy mediation book I use called "100 Blessings Every Day: KK>VI>Daily Tweleve Step Recovery Affirmations, Exercies for Personal Growth KK>VI>& Renewal Reflecting Seasons of the Jewish Year" by Rabbi Kerry M. KK>VI>Olitzky. KK>VI>The book has a page for each day of the Jewish year. Each page has a KK>VI>quote from a traditional Jewish source followed by the author's KK>VI>comments on that quote. KK>VI>Anyway for Kislev Day 22 (which was Suday July 27) the quote was from KK>VI>Zohar ii,128a: "The one truly called a human being is the one who KK>VI>subdues his impulses." KK>VI>Anyway, the fact that heterosexual men might find it heard to control KK>VI>their sexual impulses when they hear a woman's voice or sit next to a KK>VI>woman does NOT justify kol isha or the continued practice of sexual KK>VI>segregration in Orthodox synagogues. KK>VI>It is up to heterosexual men to control their impulses. If not, they KK>VI>can not truly call themselves a human being! KK>I will agree with part of your statement that it is up to men to control KK>their impulses. But I can not agree with the latter part of your KK>statement. The later part of my statement is directly from the Zohar. And I think it also reflects traditional Jewish thinking concerning the necessity for Jews to control their impulses. Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 4:30pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739699 To: Kkid Re: The Book of Our Heritage (Reply to #739683, Reply to #739652) KK>VI>I thought you would be pleased to know that I bought the three volume KK>VI>set "The Book of Our Heritage" by Eliyahu Kitov at the Elat Chayyim KK>VI>bookstore this past week. Actually I purchased the newly revised KK>VI>English language edition which is hot off the presses. KK>VI>Since the book starts in Tishrey I am planning to start reading the KK>VI>book over the High Holidays. I figure at each Rosh Hodesh I will read KK>VI>the section for that month. :) KK>I hope you will really enjoy the book. Feel free to ask if there is KK>something there you do not understand. Thank you. I will remember to do so once I start reading the first book in October. Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 4:30pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739700 To: Kkid Re: The Raddish Niggun (Reply to #739684, Reply to #739657) KK>Reminds me of another story but I don't have time to type it now :-( KK>Hope I remember later! Let this be a reminder to you to please do so! :) Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 5:36pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739703 To: ** ALL ** Re: The Siddur as Spirtual Road Map, part 1 This post is part one of Vida's synopsis of the intellectual component of the Marcia Prager class which I took at Elat Chayyim this past week. Because of the vastness of the subject I must make break it up into several seperate posts. Again, I must emphasize that the reason I am posting this synopsis is to stimulate discussion here. So ask questions! Give your comments and feedback! Chances are I can not answer your questions or commments. But we shall see what comes up here. I must start out by first stating that the class was about half intellectual component and half spritual exercises. It is absolutely impossible for to convey in words the experience of the spritual execises. Additionally, I know that at times I did not take such good notes. So these posts really represent a small portion of the actual class itself. Now from my class notes: The word "God" comes from the German world "Gut", which means the invoked. The word "God" is a job description. It is a name we use, an interface for a power. Prayer is a way to move that power in an active and a dynamic way. How does an infinite G-d manifest a world that is finite? G-d created the world by speech. G-d prayed the world into existence and prayed you into existence. G-d contracted the divine infinite to become the source of the world. The reason for the Jewish prohibition against graven images is that a graven image is difficient. It takes one aspect of the divine infinite and elevates that subsection of divine reality as it it was whole. The sin is that humans serve a part of the divine whole as if it was the whole. The ultimate act of love is to modulate to the point where the other is not aware of your presence. The way we know the enormity of G-d's love is G-d's willingness to create a world where the existence of G-d could be denied. If G-d's hiddenness did not exist we would merge back into the One. Each of us has a soul that is a vessel. The challenge to us is for our souls to become transparent enough to hold and withstand more of G-d's light. Spirtual practice clarifies the vessels of our sooul so that more of the divine light can come through. Humans are the creatures that are created in the image of the pattern of the divine One. Each part of the whole carries the pattern of the whole. We are fracticles of G-d, chips off the old block. G-d can be symbolized by the Hebrew letter "Aleph". The letter "Aleph" is composed of three other letters--two Yods and a vav. A yod is a pointing hand. The two hands point to the vav. One of the yods points up and the other yod points down. The letter vav means "and" in Hebrew. One hand points from down to up. The other hand points from up to down. This symbolizes that as it is above, so it is below. So the aleph is a symbol for the echad, the One. Another symbol for the echad is a Jewish star. The ying and yang and the omega symbol are other ways of making the same point. The Shema (a Jewish prayer--the first line is "Hear Isreal! The Lord is the only G-d. The Lord is One!) is the most powerful affirmation. It teaches us that our World is all G-d. Reality is congelled G-d. Why does the Soul come into Material existence? Answer: That's where the work is to be done or where the springboard to higher levels. Spirtual practice helps us make this journey. The siddur maps the journey that the soul makes, the journey towards Transparency. It is a model for us to use to assist us make this journey. Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 10:52pm Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 739710 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Nightbird's prayer (1 reply) I pray you all humor me by letting me write one of my favorite prayer in here God be in my head & in my understanding God be in my eyes & in my looking God be in my mouth & in my speaking God be in my heart & in my thinking God be at my end & at my departing * OLX 2.1 TD * DOS=HIGH? I knew it was on something... Date: Tuesday, July 29, 1997 6:50am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739712 To: Nightbird Re: Nightbird's prayer (Reply to #739710) (2 replies) NI>I pray you all humor me by letting me write one of my favorite prayer in NI>here NI>God be in my head & in my understanding NI>God be in my eyes & in my looking NI>God be in my mouth & in my speaking NI>God be in my heart & in my thinking NI>God be at my end & at my departing Thank you for sharing that wonderful prayer with me Nightbird! Why did you apologize for offering such a wonderful gift? :) Date: Tuesday, July 29, 1997 7:55am Forum: Theology From: Calvin Msg#: 739713 To: Vida Re: Vida's prayer (Reply to #739620) (1 reply) *EXEMPT* Date: Tuesday, July 29, 1997 7:55am Forum: Theology From: Calvin Msg#: 739714 To: Vida Re: Nightbird's prayer (Reply to #739712, Reply to #739710) (1 reply) *EXEMPT* Date: Tuesday, July 29, 1997 11:07am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739720 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739694, Reply to #739677, Reply to #739644, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandmother, I d VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue with G-d. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>Cute, very cute VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddish VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Just about anything sounds more profound in Yiddish. It's VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>earthy, gutsy langugage. :) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>It can sound different depending on which dialect you are usi VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That I wouldn't know. Personally I only know a few choice words VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Yiddish. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>My father was a native Yiddish speaker, but my mom didn't speak VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Yiddish. So my childhood home was anglophone only. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I remember my father speaking to his father in Yiddish. And wh VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>father wanted to drive me crazy he would speak to me in VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Yiddish--because he knew I didn't understand! :) VI>SF>VI>SF>Actually I took yiddish as a language for a year in college. VI>SF>VI>Steve, I am still struggling to learn Hebrew! I dropped out of the VI>SF>VI>"Advanced Beginner's class" which I took at BJ because I didn't like VI>SF>VI>the teacher. VI>SF>VI>I am considering taking a Hebrew 2 class with the teacher I had at VI>SF>VI>Brooklyn Heights synagogue because I like her better. The problem is: VI>SF>VI>TIME! TIME! TIME!! VI>SF>You will find the time if you really want to. VI>I have to prioritize and make a decision. I was also considering VI>taking the Rabbis' course at BJ which is one the bible and Jewish VI>prayer. VI> I can't imagine finding time for Hebrew class, the Rabbis class and VI>everything else I do. Classes in both Brooklyn and Manhattan should be a neat trick of scheduling. Date: Tuesday, July 29, 1997 11:08am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739721 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739695, Reply to #739678, Reply to #739645, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I do not disagree with you that established VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>equatible to women, however, I will not pla VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>by labeling what I do not agree with as a s VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That's easy for you to say. You're a man. Yo VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>privelege. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Again, I will say that I totally agree about wome VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>community, however, sin I leave to G-d. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>And I say any class based discrimination is sin. An VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>sin when it is done in G-d's name. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Wrong...YES! Sin......I will let you know as soon as G- VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>G-d tells me...and boy is SHE pissed! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You have a more direct line. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>On this point, I have absolutely NO DOUBTS. Indeed, as I have w VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>to Kkid I believe that the Messiah will NOT come until and unles VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>treat women as full and equal members of the religion. VI>SF>VI>SF>Talking about my family again? VI>SF>VI>My family too Steve. All Jews are distant cousins. VI>SF>But some are closer than others. VI>I find your claim that you are any closer of a family member to the VI>Messiah than I to be totally and completely offensive. All Jews are VI>the same. Does this mean you can determine your decent from the House of David just like I can? Date: Tuesday, July 29, 1997 11:08am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739722 To: Vida Re: Leaving for Elat Chayyim (Reply to #739696, Reply to #739679, Reply to #739646, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I'm leaving to go to Elat Chayyim for a week tommorrow. I'll be VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>till next Sunday. Mainly for the benefit of Sam Beckett, let me VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>explain that Elat Chayyim is a Jewish renewal retreat that I hav VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>going to for a week for the past three years. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Unfortunately, Reb Zalman had to cancel his class because of hea VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>reasons. So I won't have a chance to take a class with him agai VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>year. I was really looking forward to learning from Reb Zalman VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>he is such a dynamic personality. So it is very sad for me that VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>won't be there. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>However, I will be taking a class called "Prophetess, Priestess VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Prostitute: Archetypes of Jewish Women's Sexuality, Sprituality VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Power". I'm sure I'll have more to say about this class when I VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>back! VI>SF>VI>SF>I am sure you will! VI>SF>VI>SF>ENJOY and LEARN! VI>SF>VI>Thank you! Thank you! VI>SF>VI>I did not get your message on this reality plane until I got back to VI>SF>VI>Elat Chayyim. But it did transmit itself clearly while I was there. VI>SF>VI>I had a very full week up there--as witnessed by the fact that I am VI>SF>VI>writing this now at 3:30 AM. I woke up in the middle of the night wit VI>SF>VI>my head buzzing with energy. VI>SF>Now the task is to channel that energy VI>Yes. It will probably take me a few days to get back to normal. You normal.........NAH Date: Tuesday, July 29, 1997 11:10am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739723 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739697, Reply to #739680, Reply to #739647, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>I>SF>NI>SF>I>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandmother, VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue with G-d. VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Cute, very cute VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddish VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Wouldn't know, I don't know any yiddish :) VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>Neither did I back then. VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Ok fine, hey, I've sang in alot of diffrent laugaguages VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>Did you always understand what you were singing? VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>Most of the time. VI>SF>VI>SF>That would make it more meaningful. VI>SF>VI>That's not necessarily true Steve. VI>SF>VI>As you know I have been davening (praying for all you nonJews) VI>SF>VI>regularly at BJ where the prayer service is almost entirely in Hebrew. VI>SF>VI>At this point I can more or less read the siddur phoenicatically (the VI>SF>VI>vowels still give me problems) and I can pick out a few words hear and VI>SF>VI>there in the prayers (ie. kodush = holy, baruch= blessed, etc. ) but I VI>SF>VI>still can not understand most of the words. VI>SF>VI>At Friday night service this last week at Elat Chayyim the service was VI>SF>VI>mostly in English and I found it to be flat and unmoving. On Saturday VI>SF>VI>morning, the service was in Hebrew and I found myself uplifted. VI>SF>VI>In a way that I can not quite explain the Hebrew prayers speak to my VI>SF>VI>Jewish soul. I can diffently hear my ancestors calling to me when I VI>SF>VI>sing a prayer in Hebrew, even though I know I am probably misprouncing VI>SF>VI>words and making mistakes. So in this case for me, I get to a deeper VI>SF>VI>prayer space in a language which I really don't understand than in a VI>SF>VI>language I do understand. VI>SF>In your case you are feeling a personal connection to the language. VI>Absolutely! VI>Plus Hebrew, especially Biblical Hebrew, is a holy language that has a VI>definite spirtual component. English is a completely mundane and VI>secular language. So a prayer said in Hebrew is not the same as a VI>prayer said in English. I believe I am also tuning into the spirtual VI>component of the Hebrew language itself. How to you equate this with your egalitarian feelings? Date: Tuesday, July 29, 1997 6:27pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739728 To: ** ALL ** Re: Secret Jews (1 reply) Found this on one of my e mail lists. I don't know if it really belongs in this forum. But I guess this forum is the closet "fit". :) ------------------------------------------------------------- Jewish Voyagers to the New World Emerging From History's Mists The New York Times via Dow Jones The New York Times [Late Edition - Final] Copyright c. 1997 New York Times Company Publication Date: July 29, 1997 Section C, Page 4, Column 1 By ANDREE BROOKS AN enduring image of the earliest Europeans to arrive in the New World, with help from Hollywood, is an overdressed Conquistador, crucifix or sword held high, spreading salvation among the indigenous population. That concept is now undergoing re-evaluation. For hidden under his breastplate, in spirit if not in fact, may well have been a Star of David; the crucifix more protective cover than symbol of a crusading zeal. For the Jews were far more significant in the earliest exploration, settlement and development of the Caribbean and South America than has previously been acknowledged. Why and how this happened and why it has received scant attention was the theme of a recent conference at the John Carter Brown Library at Brown University. Called ''The Jews and the Expansion of Europe to the West,'' it brought together about 30 scholars from as far afield as Brazil and Holland and disciplines from economic history to anthropology. The main organizers were the library and the Touro National Heritage Trust, an affiliate of the Touro Synagogue in Newport, R.I. The chief reason for years of oversight, scholars agreed, had to do with definition: virtually all Jews playing a significant role in the earliest development of the New World were involuntary converts, known interchangeably as New Christians, Conversos or Marranos. They had been coerced into conversion in the bloody period of persecution and elimination of Judaism in Spain and Portugal at the close of the 15th century. No wonder the bright prospects of a newly discovered faraway land an ocean away from persecution and filled with untold riches provoked a heavy wave of Jewish migration. The trade potential was especially appealing to these Iberian or Sephardic Jews, expert international traders since the Middle Ages, when they had been a significant presence throughout the Mediterranean. Conference presentations were dotted with colorful stories. Consider that of the covert Jewish Conquistador Alonso de Avila. He first enlists in the army of Hernando Cortes -- as a bookkeeper. In appreciation for accounting services rendered, he is then made the first mayor of the newly created city of Veracruz. But the glory is fleeting. He is arrested as a relapsed Jew by the Mexican Inquisition, accused of keeping a crucifix under his writing table and stepping on it -- a common but spurious charge, said Dr. Eva Alexandra Uchmany of the Universidad Nacional in Mexico, who told the story. Other Iberian Inquisition practices gave these migrations a further boost. Dr. Geraldo Pieroni, professor of history at the University of Brasilia, told how deportation to Brazil was a customary sentence meted out by the Portuguese Inquisition in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries. Dr. Anita Novinsky, a professor of history at the University of San Paulo, estimated that in the region around Rio de Janeiro and the state of Bahia, New Christians constituted 20 percent of the European population by the 17th and 18th centuries; the number rose to50 percent in the Paraiba region near Recife, the core of the lucrative sugar trade. Today, she said, so many Brazilians are eager to retrace their family lineages that organizations are forming for people who believe they come from New Christian stock and want to reclaim their Jewish ancestry. It is known in Spanish as ''la sangre llama'' (the blood is calling), said Mordechai Arbell, a former Israeli ambassador to Colombia, Panama and Haiti, and a specialist on Caribbean Jewry. The first 23 Jews to arrive in New York Harbor, in September 1654, scholars noted, were Brazilians descended from New Christians who returned to Judaism. By the early 18th century, half the European population of Suriname, then a territory of the Netherlands, was Jewish, reported Dr. Wim Klooster, a Dutch historian. In Suriname, they could come out of the religious closet, having won freedom of worship under the more tolerant Dutch. They were considered so important to the economic well-being of Suriname that they were given the right ''to labor on Sundays.'' A thriving agricultural village on the Suriname River in the early 1700's was called Joden Savanne (Jewish Savannah). In Dutch Curacao, Jewish importance to the commercial viability of the settlement was deemed sufficient to allow Jewish schools to stay open on Sunday. Jewish ships plying the Atlantic carried such names as the Mazel Tov or Bekeerde Jood (converted Jew), Dr. Klooster said. The researchers said Jewish success resulted mainly from tight family networks, which created what were essentially international corporations. These emerged as other family members, also under constant jeopardy from Inquisition spies, sought refuge in the more tolerant societies of Amsterdam, western France and London. From there they could provide the reliable shipping, credit and trading links for a nascent commerce coping with risky voyages over thousands of windswept miles and prey to dishonest captains and sneak attacks by warring nations and pirates. The family networks also kept members accountable to one another. ''Those who could minimize risk were destined to become the most successful players,'' said Dr. John J. McCusker, a professor of economics at Trinity University in San Antonio. Dr. Silvia Marzagalli, a French maritime historian from the University of Bordeaux, told how youthful family members would first be sent to Amsterdam for a commercial education and then on to the Caribbean to serve as company agents. Marriages were arranged with an eye toward expanding the network. These settlers all still spoke a common language -- either Judeo-Spanish, also known as Ladino, or Portuguese. This seamlessly knit openly practicing Jews and their New Christian relatives in British, Dutch, French, Spanish and Portuguese-speaking domains. One measure of their success, scholars noted, was constant accusations of unfair competition and of practicing black arts through the use of secret signs and symbols; Judeo-Spanish was often written using Hebrew characters. Another was the arrival of the Inquisition in the New World. ''A Castillian of pure stock has not a ghost of a show against these Portuguese,'' one participant testified in a Peruvian Inquisition trial, according to Dr. Irene Silverblatt, a cultural anthropologist at Duke University. On one occasion in the 1600's, Lima was plunged into economic chaos after the mass arrest and execution of the city's leading merchants, all of them New Christians, she said. In the final analysis, despite the economic success of these New Christians, they lost out in the larger historical sweepstakes; they were scorned by Old Christian society and, for the most part, overlooked by Jewish history. Illustration: Photos: Jews sometimes stayed underground in the New World, but in Suriname, a tolerant Dutch colony, they worshipped openly. Above, remnants of the synagogue Beraka ve Shalom, founded in 1685 in the flourishing settlement of Joden Savanne, or Jewish Savannah (Courtesy of Mordechai Arbell); at left, (Rachel Frankel), tomb with Hebrew text from the cemetery. Date: Tuesday, July 29, 1997 6:40pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739733 To: Calvin Re: Vida's prayer (Reply to #739713, Reply to #739620) CA>*EXEMPT* Thank you! :) That prayer has become very special to me in a very short time. I have been saying it as part of my morning routine since I "rewrote" it last Wednesday. Date: Tuesday, July 29, 1997 6:42pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739734 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739720, Reply to #739694, Reply to #739677, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandmother, SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue with G-d. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>Cute, very cute SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddish SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Just about anything sounds more profound in Yiddish. I SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>earthy, gutsy langugage. :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>It can sound different depending on which dialect you are SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That I wouldn't know. Personally I only know a few choice wo SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Yiddish. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>My father was a native Yiddish speaker, but my mom didn't spe SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Yiddish. So my childhood home was anglophone only. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I remember my father speaking to his father in Yiddish. And SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>father wanted to drive me crazy he would speak to me in SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Yiddish--because he knew I didn't understand! :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Actually I took yiddish as a language for a year in college. SF>VI>SF>VI>Steve, I am still struggling to learn Hebrew! I dropped out of the SF>VI>SF>VI>"Advanced Beginner's class" which I took at BJ because I didn't lik SF>VI>SF>VI>the teacher. SF>VI>SF>VI>I am considering taking a Hebrew 2 class with the teacher I had at SF>VI>SF>VI>Brooklyn Heights synagogue because I like her better. The problem SF>VI>SF>VI>TIME! TIME! TIME!! SF>VI>SF>You will find the time if you really want to. SF>VI>I have to prioritize and make a decision. I was also considering SF>VI>taking the Rabbis' course at BJ which is one the bible and Jewish SF>VI>prayer. SF>VI> I can't imagine finding time for Hebrew class, the Rabbis class and SF>VI>everything else I do. SF>Classes in both Brooklyn and Manhattan should be a neat trick of SF>scheduling. Plus in order to make any progress in the Hebrew class I have to STUDY at least a half an hour, at least five days a week. Date: Tuesday, July 29, 1997 6:43pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739735 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739721, Reply to #739695, Reply to #739678, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I do not disagree with you that establis SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>equatible to women, however, I will not SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>by labeling what I do not agree with as SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That's easy for you to say. You're a man. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>privelege. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Again, I will say that I totally agree about w SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>community, however, sin I leave to G-d. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>And I say any class based discrimination is sin. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>sin when it is done in G-d's name. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Wrong...YES! Sin......I will let you know as soon as SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>G-d tells me...and boy is SHE pissed! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You have a more direct line. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>On this point, I have absolutely NO DOUBTS. Indeed, as I hav SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>to Kkid I believe that the Messiah will NOT come until and un SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>treat women as full and equal members of the religion. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Talking about my family again? SF>VI>SF>VI>My family too Steve. All Jews are distant cousins. SF>VI>SF>But some are closer than others. SF>VI>I find your claim that you are any closer of a family member to the SF>VI>Messiah than I to be totally and completely offensive. All Jews are SF>VI>the same. SF>Does this mean you can determine your decent from the House of David SF>just like I can? No. But so what! It's only an accident of history that you can and I can't. Date: Tuesday, July 29, 1997 6:43pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739736 To: Steve Flur Re: Leaving for Elat Chayyim (Reply to #739722, Reply to #739696, Reply to #739679, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I'm leaving to go to Elat Chayyim for a week tommorrow. I'll SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>till next Sunday. Mainly for the benefit of Sam Beckett, let SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>explain that Elat Chayyim is a Jewish renewal retreat that I SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>going to for a week for the past three years. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Unfortunately, Reb Zalman had to cancel his class because of SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>reasons. So I won't have a chance to take a class with him a SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>year. I was really looking forward to learning from Reb Zalm SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>he is such a dynamic personality. So it is very sad for me t SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>won't be there. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>However, I will be taking a class called "Prophetess, Prieste SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Prostitute: Archetypes of Jewish Women's Sexuality, Sprituali SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Power". I'm sure I'll have more to say about this class when SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>back! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I am sure you will! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>ENJOY and LEARN! SF>VI>SF>VI>Thank you! Thank you! SF>VI>SF>VI>I did not get your message on this reality plane until I got back t SF>VI>SF>VI>Elat Chayyim. But it did transmit itself clearly while I was there. SF>VI>SF>VI>I had a very full week up there--as witnessed by the fact that I am SF>VI>SF>VI>writing this now at 3:30 AM. I woke up in the middle of the night SF>VI>SF>VI>my head buzzing with energy. SF>VI>SF>Now the task is to channel that energy SF>VI>Yes. It will probably take me a few days to get back to normal. SF>You normal.........NAH Well normal for ME than. :) Date: Tuesday, July 29, 1997 6:47pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739737 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739723, Reply to #739697, Reply to #739680, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>I>SF>NI>SF>I>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandmoth SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue with G SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Cute, very cute SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddish SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Wouldn't know, I don't know any yiddish :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>Neither did I back then. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Ok fine, hey, I've sang in alot of diffrent laugaguages SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>Did you always understand what you were singing? SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>Most of the time. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>That would make it more meaningful. SF>VI>SF>VI>That's not necessarily true Steve. SF>VI>SF>VI>As you know I have been davening (praying for all you nonJews) SF>VI>SF>VI>regularly at BJ where the prayer service is almost entirely in Hebr SF>VI>SF>VI>At this point I can more or less read the siddur phoenicatically (t SF>VI>SF>VI>vowels still give me problems) and I can pick out a few words hear SF>VI>SF>VI>there in the prayers (ie. kodush = holy, baruch= blessed, etc. ) bu SF>VI>SF>VI>still can not understand most of the words. SF>VI>SF>VI>At Friday night service this last week at Elat Chayyim the service SF>VI>SF>VI>mostly in English and I found it to be flat and unmoving. On Satur SF>VI>SF>VI>morning, the service was in Hebrew and I found myself uplifted. SF>VI>SF>VI>In a way that I can not quite explain the Hebrew prayers speak to m SF>VI>SF>VI>Jewish soul. I can diffently hear my ancestors calling to me when SF>VI>SF>VI>sing a prayer in Hebrew, even though I know I am probably misprounc SF>VI>SF>VI>words and making mistakes. So in this case for me, I get to a deep SF>VI>SF>VI>prayer space in a language which I really don't understand than in SF>VI>SF>VI>language I do understand. SF>VI>SF>In your case you are feeling a personal connection to the language. SF>VI>Absolutely! SF>VI>Plus Hebrew, especially Biblical Hebrew, is a holy language that has a SF>VI>definite spirtual component. English is a completely mundane and SF>VI>secular language. So a prayer said in Hebrew is not the same as a SF>VI>prayer said in English. I believe I am also tuning into the spirtual SF>VI>component of the Hebrew language itself. SF>How to you equate this with your egalitarian feelings? I don't see how this conflicts with my equalitarian feelings. Biblical Hebrew is a holy language because it was USED for holy purposes. And the only real literature that is written in Biblical Hebrew that still exists was written for spirtual reasons. English, on the other hand, is predominately USED for secular purposes and is therefore NOT a spirtual language. Date: Tuesday, July 29, 1997 8:27pm Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 739739 To: Vida Re: Nightbird's prayer (Reply to #739712, Reply to #739710) (1 reply) VI>NI>I pray you all humor me by letting me write one of my favorite prayer in VI>NI>here VI>NI>God be in my head & in my understanding VI>NI>God be in my eyes & in my looking VI>NI>God be in my mouth & in my speaking VI>NI>God be in my heart & in my thinking VI>NI>God be at my end & at my departing VI>Thank you for sharing that wonderful prayer with me Nightbird! Why did VI>you apologize for offering such a wonderful gift? :) Habit!!! * OLX 2.1 TD * Explosion at Kodak-no film at 11. Date: Tuesday, July 29, 1997 8:28pm Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 739741 To: Calvin Re: Nightbird's prayer (Reply to #739714, Reply to #739712, Reply to #739710) CA>*EXEMPT* Why, thank you!!! * OLX 2.1 TD * Confusion(n.): Donald Duck speaking Klingon. Date: Wednesday, July 30, 1997 6:36am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739743 To: Nightbird Re: Nightbird's prayer (Reply to #739739, Reply to #739712, Reply to #739710) (1 reply) NI>VI>NI>I pray you all humor me by letting me write one of my favorite prayer NI>VI>NI>here NI>VI>NI>God be in my head & in my understanding NI>VI>NI>God be in my eyes & in my looking NI>VI>NI>God be in my mouth & in my speaking NI>VI>NI>God be in my heart & in my thinking NI>VI>NI>God be at my end & at my departing NI>VI>Thank you for sharing that wonderful prayer with me Nightbird! Why did NI>VI>you apologize for offering such a wonderful gift? :) NI>Habit!!! Then brake the habit! :) Date: Wednesday, July 30, 1997 8:07am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739744 To: ** ALL ** Re: Siddur As Spirtual Road Map, part 2 This is part 2 of Vida's notes from Marcia Prager's class at Elat Chayyim on "Siddur As Spirtual Road Map". The soul's journey has many models which we are using. One of these ladder's is Jacob's Ladder. In the story of Jacob's Ladder Jacob has a dream in which angels descend from heaven and ascend to heaven on a ladder. If we envision the siddur as Jacob's Ladder the point of the service is to bring us up to the mountain top experience and then safely bring us down. The problem with this model is that it uses hierachial language of up and down and thus makes value judgements. Another model for the siddur is Be'er, digging wells. In the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) both Abraham and Miriam dig wells that go deep, both beyond and within. Another model for the siddur is the Mishkan, entering the Holy Temple. The Mishkan is the place where the Shekhina, the indwelling presence of G-d dwells. So when we enter into the Mishkan we are hanging out with the Shekhina. Unfortunately the class which I took at Elat Chayyim was actually part ONE of the three part series. So the only model which Reb Marcia discussed in the course in detail. I just wish I could have taken parts two and three of this class, since I assume these parts went into the details of the other two models which I just outlined here. In the model of the siddur as Jacob's Ladder we are davening (praying) through the Four Worlds. Each time we ascend and descend Jacob's Ladder by praying the prayers in the siddur we do the work necessary to expand our soul and our souls become bigger in the process. A worm doesn't think about the earth being the earth. The miracle is that as human beings are made up of the physical elements of the earth but that we are self aware. Humans are that stratum of the cosmos that represents G-d's conciousness, we have the about to turn back to the Source and say yes. G-d is hidden in plain sight. Humans have to take hearing and seeing lessons in order to discern G-d's prescence. The journey of Jacob's Leader is learning to see what is in plain sight--that G-d's presscene is everywhere. The model of Jacob's Ladder is one way of looking at the siddur. In this model it becomes our task to climb the Ladder conciously--becoming more aware of the shadowy divine prescence which is hidden in plain sight. Jacob's Ladder is composed of four rungs, which correspond to the four letters of "the Tetragrammaton"--G-d's holiest name in Hebrew, which is composed of the Letters yod hay vav hay. The soul passes through four stages of conciousness when we embark on the trip laid out in the Siddur. As we pray from the siddur we consciously embark on the project of becoming more transparent souls--beomer better see-ers. Creation began when G-d withdraw enough of himself so that a little vacuum point inside G-d existed, a little seed of sould then existen within G-d. "Reishet"--"The Beginning--is this primal point where all creation will swell and into which the worlds of abudence will pour. G-d is speaking creation into existence at this very moment. Nothing but now really exists. The past is a memory, the future is an anticipation. From the Reishet point the universe of incorporation still develops. Each soul makes the journey from the Reishet point where they reside in the World of "Atzilut": The place of the dissolve. Atzilut corresponds to the yod in the Tetragammon. Yod is the smallest letter in the Hebrew alphabet. Vida notes that when you write the letter yod it looks like an apostrophe. The world of Atzilut is represented by a flame. The soul then enters the world of "B'riah": The World of Mind, which corresponds to the first hay in the Tetragammon. The world of B'riah is represented by a cloud. Vida notes that the letter hay looks like a table, with a small gap between the left table leg and the table top. The soul next enters the world of "Yetzirah": the World of the Heart. Yetzirah corresponds to the vav in the Tetragammon. The world of Yetzirah is represented by water. Vida notes that the letter vav looks like the number one. The soul next enters the world of "Assiyah": the World of the Body. Assiyah corresponds to the second hay in the Tetragammon. The world of Assiyah is represented by a solid brick. When a person dies, the soul that resided in the body of that person reverses the journey that it made when the person was born. It makes a journey from the world of Assiyah, to the World of Yetzirah, to the World of B'riah to the World of Atzilut. If we draw a map of the journey that the soul makes in every life time it would look like a bell curve, which starts up, descends, then curves back up. In the Saturday morning service in the siddur the soul also makes a journey. The journey which the soul makes is from the world of Azziyah to the Word of Yetzirah, to the World of B'riah, to the world of Atzilut. Once it reaches the peak experience of the World of Atzilut, the prayers in the siddur gently returns the soul to the World of Assiyah, passing through the world of B'riah and Yetzirah along the way. If we draw a map of the journey that the soul makes during the Saturday morning service it appears to be the mirror image of the map of the soul's journey in each life. The map of the journey which the soul makes during the Saturday morning service looks like a bell curve which starts down, curves upward and then curves back down. HOWEVER, the soul does not end in the same place when it makes the journey of praying the prayers in the siddur. The soul starts at mundane consciousness, reaches the peak experience, and then curves back down to an elevated state of awareness. Date: Wednesday, July 30, 1997 11:44am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739747 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739734, Reply to #739720, Reply to #739694, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandmothe VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue with G-d. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>Cute, very cute VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddish VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Just about anything sounds more profound in Yiddish. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>earthy, gutsy langugage. :) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>It can sound different depending on which dialect you a VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That I wouldn't know. Personally I only know a few choice VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Yiddish. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>My father was a native Yiddish speaker, but my mom didn't VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Yiddish. So my childhood home was anglophone only. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I remember my father speaking to his father in Yiddish. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>father wanted to drive me crazy he would speak to me in VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Yiddish--because he knew I didn't understand! :) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Actually I took yiddish as a language for a year in college. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Steve, I am still struggling to learn Hebrew! I dropped out of VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>"Advanced Beginner's class" which I took at BJ because I didn't VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>the teacher. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I am considering taking a Hebrew 2 class with the teacher I had VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Brooklyn Heights synagogue because I like her better. The probl VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>TIME! TIME! TIME!! VI>SF>VI>SF>You will find the time if you really want to. VI>SF>VI>I have to prioritize and make a decision. I was also considering VI>SF>VI>taking the Rabbis' course at BJ which is one the bible and Jewish VI>SF>VI>prayer. VI>SF>VI> I can't imagine finding time for Hebrew class, the Rabbis class and VI>SF>VI>everything else I do. VI>SF>Classes in both Brooklyn and Manhattan should be a neat trick of VI>SF>scheduling. VI>Plus in order to make any progress in the Hebrew class I have to STUDY VI>at least a half an hour, at least five days a week. Easy solution, give up sleep. Date: Wednesday, July 30, 1997 11:46am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739748 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739735, Reply to #739721, Reply to #739695, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I do not disagree with you that estab VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>equatible to women, however, I will n VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>by labeling what I do not agree with VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That's easy for you to say. You're a ma VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>privelege. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Again, I will say that I totally agree abou VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>community, however, sin I leave to G-d. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>And I say any class based discrimination is si VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>sin when it is done in G-d's name. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Wrong...YES! Sin......I will let you know as soon VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>G-d tells me...and boy is SHE pissed! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You have a more direct line. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>On this point, I have absolutely NO DOUBTS. Indeed, as I VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>to Kkid I believe that the Messiah will NOT come until and VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>treat women as full and equal members of the religion. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Talking about my family again? VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>My family too Steve. All Jews are distant cousins. VI>SF>VI>SF>But some are closer than others. VI>SF>VI>I find your claim that you are any closer of a family member to the VI>SF>VI>Messiah than I to be totally and completely offensive. All Jews are VI>SF>VI>the same. VI>SF>Does this mean you can determine your decent from the House of David VI>SF>just like I can? VI>No. But so what! It's only an accident of history that you can and I VI>can't. That does not make me the bad guy. Date: Wednesday, July 30, 1997 11:46am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739749 To: Vida Re: Leaving for Elat Chayyim (Reply to #739736, Reply to #739722, Reply to #739696, R*) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I'm leaving to go to Elat Chayyim for a week tommorrow. I VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>till next Sunday. Mainly for the benefit of Sam Beckett, VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>explain that Elat Chayyim is a Jewish renewal retreat that VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>going to for a week for the past three years. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Unfortunately, Reb Zalman had to cancel his class because VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>reasons. So I won't have a chance to take a class with hi VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>year. I was really looking forward to learning from Reb Z VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>he is such a dynamic personality. So it is very sad for m VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>won't be there. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>However, I will be taking a class called "Prophetess, Prie VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Prostitute: Archetypes of Jewish Women's Sexuality, Spritu VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Power". I'm sure I'll have more to say about this class w VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>back! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I am sure you will! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>ENJOY and LEARN! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Thank you! Thank you! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I did not get your message on this reality plane until I got bac VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Elat Chayyim. But it did transmit itself clearly while I was the VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I had a very full week up there--as witnessed by the fact that I VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>writing this now at 3:30 AM. I woke up in the middle of the nig VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>my head buzzing with energy. VI>SF>VI>SF>Now the task is to channel that energy VI>SF>VI>Yes. It will probably take me a few days to get back to normal. VI>SF>You normal.........NAH VI>Well normal for ME than. :) That's possible. Date: Wednesday, July 30, 1997 11:48am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739750 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739737, Reply to #739723, Reply to #739697, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>I>SF>NI>SF>I>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandm VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue wit VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Cute, very cute VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddish VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Wouldn't know, I don't know any yiddish :) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>Neither did I back then. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Ok fine, hey, I've sang in alot of diffrent laugagua VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>Did you always understand what you were singing? VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>Most of the time. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>That would make it more meaningful. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That's not necessarily true Steve. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>As you know I have been davening (praying for all you nonJews) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>regularly at BJ where the prayer service is almost entirely in H VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>At this point I can more or less read the siddur phoenicatically VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>vowels still give me problems) and I can pick out a few words he VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>there in the prayers (ie. kodush = holy, baruch= blessed, etc. ) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>still can not understand most of the words. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>At Friday night service this last week at Elat Chayyim the servi VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>mostly in English and I found it to be flat and unmoving. On Sa VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>morning, the service was in Hebrew and I found myself uplifted. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>In a way that I can not quite explain the Hebrew prayers speak t VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Jewish soul. I can diffently hear my ancestors calling to me wh VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>sing a prayer in Hebrew, even though I know I am probably mispro VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>words and making mistakes. So in this case for me, I get to a d VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayer space in a language which I really don't understand than VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>language I do understand. VI>SF>VI>SF>In your case you are feeling a personal connection to the language. VI>SF>VI>Absolutely! VI>SF>VI>Plus Hebrew, especially Biblical Hebrew, is a holy language that has a VI>SF>VI>definite spirtual component. English is a completely mundane and VI>SF>VI>secular language. So a prayer said in Hebrew is not the same as a VI>SF>VI>prayer said in English. I believe I am also tuning into the spirtual VI>SF>VI>component of the Hebrew language itself. VI>SF>How to you equate this with your egalitarian feelings? VI>I don't see how this conflicts with my equalitarian feelings. VI>Biblical Hebrew is a holy language because it was USED for holy VI>purposes. And the only real literature that is written in Biblical VI>Hebrew that still exists was written for spirtual reasons. VI>English, on the other hand, is predominately USED for secular purposes VI>and is therefore NOT a spirtual language. Doesn't the use of Hebrew prayers prevent the non-Hebrew speaker from full participation in services? Date: Wednesday, July 30, 1997 7:44pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739756 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739747, Reply to #739734, Reply to #739720, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-grandmo SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue with G SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>Cute, very cute SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddish SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Just about anything sounds more profound in Yiddi SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>earthy, gutsy langugage. :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>It can sound different depending on which dialect yo SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That I wouldn't know. Personally I only know a few cho SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Yiddish. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>My father was a native Yiddish speaker, but my mom didn SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Yiddish. So my childhood home was anglophone only. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I remember my father speaking to his father in Yiddish SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>father wanted to drive me crazy he would speak to me in SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Yiddish--because he knew I didn't understand! :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Actually I took yiddish as a language for a year in colleg SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Steve, I am still struggling to learn Hebrew! I dropped out SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>"Advanced Beginner's class" which I took at BJ because I didn SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>the teacher. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I am considering taking a Hebrew 2 class with the teacher I h SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Brooklyn Heights synagogue because I like her better. The pr SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>TIME! TIME! TIME!! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You will find the time if you really want to. SF>VI>SF>VI>I have to prioritize and make a decision. I was also considering SF>VI>SF>VI>taking the Rabbis' course at BJ which is one the bible and Jewish SF>VI>SF>VI>prayer. SF>VI>SF>VI> I can't imagine finding time for Hebrew class, the Rabbis class a SF>VI>SF>VI>everything else I do. SF>VI>SF>Classes in both Brooklyn and Manhattan should be a neat trick of SF>VI>SF>scheduling. SF>VI>Plus in order to make any progress in the Hebrew class I have to STUDY SF>VI>at least a half an hour, at least five days a week. SF>Easy solution, give up sleep. Given the problem that I have been having sleeping for the past week that's no joke Steve! Date: Wednesday, July 30, 1997 7:45pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739757 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739748, Reply to #739735, Reply to #739721, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I do not disagree with you that es SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>equatible to women, however, I wil SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>by labeling what I do not agree wi SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That's easy for you to say. You're a SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>privelege. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Again, I will say that I totally agree a SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>community, however, sin I leave to G-d. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>And I say any class based discrimination is SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>sin when it is done in G-d's name. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Wrong...YES! Sin......I will let you know as s SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>G-d tells me...and boy is SHE pissed! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You have a more direct line. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>On this point, I have absolutely NO DOUBTS. Indeed, as SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>to Kkid I believe that the Messiah will NOT come until SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>treat women as full and equal members of the religion. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Talking about my family again? SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>My family too Steve. All Jews are distant cousins. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>But some are closer than others. SF>VI>SF>VI>I find your claim that you are any closer of a family member to the SF>VI>SF>VI>Messiah than I to be totally and completely offensive. All Jews ar SF>VI>SF>VI>the same. SF>VI>SF>Does this mean you can determine your decent from the House of David SF>VI>SF>just like I can? SF>VI>No. But so what! It's only an accident of history that you can and I SF>VI>can't. SF>That does not make me the bad guy. I never said you were a bad guy. I said that you are annoying me by braging about your alleged family connection to King David. Date: Wednesday, July 30, 1997 7:48pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739758 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739750, Reply to #739737, Reply to #739723, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>I>SF>NI>SF>I>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-gra SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Cute, very cute SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddish SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Wouldn't know, I don't know any yiddish :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>Neither did I back then. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Ok fine, hey, I've sang in alot of diffrent lauga SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>Did you always understand what you were singing? SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>Most of the time. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>That would make it more meaningful. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That's not necessarily true Steve. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>As you know I have been davening (praying for all you nonJews SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>regularly at BJ where the prayer service is almost entirely i SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>At this point I can more or less read the siddur phoenicatica SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>vowels still give me problems) and I can pick out a few words SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>there in the prayers (ie. kodush = holy, baruch= blessed, etc SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>still can not understand most of the words. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>At Friday night service this last week at Elat Chayyim the se SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>mostly in English and I found it to be flat and unmoving. On SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>morning, the service was in Hebrew and I found myself uplifte SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>In a way that I can not quite explain the Hebrew prayers spea SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Jewish soul. I can diffently hear my ancestors calling to me SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>sing a prayer in Hebrew, even though I know I am probably mis SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>words and making mistakes. So in this case for me, I get to SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayer space in a language which I really don't understand th SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>language I do understand. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>In your case you are feeling a personal connection to the langua SF>VI>SF>VI>Absolutely! SF>VI>SF>VI>Plus Hebrew, especially Biblical Hebrew, is a holy language that ha SF>VI>SF>VI>definite spirtual component. English is a completely mundane and SF>VI>SF>VI>secular language. So a prayer said in Hebrew is not the same as a SF>VI>SF>VI>prayer said in English. I believe I am also tuning into the spirtu SF>VI>SF>VI>component of the Hebrew language itself. SF>VI>SF>How to you equate this with your egalitarian feelings? SF>VI>I don't see how this conflicts with my equalitarian feelings. SF>VI>Biblical Hebrew is a holy language because it was USED for holy SF>VI>purposes. And the only real literature that is written in Biblical SF>VI>Hebrew that still exists was written for spirtual reasons. SF>VI>English, on the other hand, is predominately USED for secular purposes SF>VI>and is therefore NOT a spirtual language. SF>Doesn't the use of Hebrew prayers prevent the non-Hebrew speaker from SF>full participation in services? Yes and no. If the siddur includes English transliteration of the Hebrew than the non-Hebrew speaker can at least recite the prayers even if he/she does not know what the prayers mean. I certainly used the transliteration before I learned the Hebrew alphabet. And I still occassionally use it when I get "lost" during the service. And of course the non-Hebrew speaker can always learn Hebrew! Date: Wednesday, July 30, 1997 8:41pm Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 739761 To: Vida Re: Nightbird's prayer (Reply to #739743, Reply to #739739, Reply to #739712, R*) (1 reply) VI>NI>VI>NI>I pray you all humor me by letting me write one of my favorite pray VI>NI>VI>NI>here VI>NI>VI>NI>God be in my head & in my understanding VI>NI>VI>NI>God be in my eyes & in my looking VI>NI>VI>NI>God be in my mouth & in my speaking VI>NI>VI>NI>God be in my heart & in my thinking VI>NI>VI>NI>God be at my end & at my departing VI>NI>VI>Thank you for sharing that wonderful prayer with me Nightbird! Why di VI>NI>VI>you apologize for offering such a wonderful gift? :) VI>NI>Habit!!! VI>Then brake the habit! :) I'm trying, it's SOOOOOO hard! * OLX 2.1 TD * Superman of Borg: It's a bird! It's irrelevant! Date: Thursday, July 31, 1997 7:22am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739767 To: Nightbird Re: Nightbird's prayer (Reply to #739761, Reply to #739743, Reply to #739739, R*) (1 reply) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I pray you all humor me by letting me write one of my favorite p NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>here NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be in my head & in my understanding NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be in my eyes & in my looking NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be in my mouth & in my speaking NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be in my heart & in my thinking NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be at my end & at my departing NI>VI>NI>VI>Thank you for sharing that wonderful prayer with me Nightbird! Why NI>VI>NI>VI>you apologize for offering such a wonderful gift? :) NI>VI>NI>Habit!!! NI>VI>Then brake the habit! :) NI>I'm trying, it's SOOOOOO hard! Just do your best. Keep repeating to yourself: "I am a wonderful woman, I have nothing to apologize for." :) Date: Thursday, July 31, 1997 8:13am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739770 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739756, Reply to #739747, Reply to #739734, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-gran VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue wit VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>Cute, very cute VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddish VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Just about anything sounds more profound in Yi VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>earthy, gutsy langugage. :) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>It can sound different depending on which dialect VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That I wouldn't know. Personally I only know a few VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Yiddish. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>My father was a native Yiddish speaker, but my mom d VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Yiddish. So my childhood home was anglophone only. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I remember my father speaking to his father in Yidd VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>father wanted to drive me crazy he would speak to me VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Yiddish--because he knew I didn't understand! :) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Actually I took yiddish as a language for a year in col VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Steve, I am still struggling to learn Hebrew! I dropped o VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>"Advanced Beginner's class" which I took at BJ because I d VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>the teacher. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I am considering taking a Hebrew 2 class with the teacher VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Brooklyn Heights synagogue because I like her better. The VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>TIME! TIME! TIME!! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You will find the time if you really want to. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I have to prioritize and make a decision. I was also considerin VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>taking the Rabbis' course at BJ which is one the bible and Jewis VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayer. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI> I can't imagine finding time for Hebrew class, the Rabbis clas VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>everything else I do. VI>SF>VI>SF>Classes in both Brooklyn and Manhattan should be a neat trick of VI>SF>VI>SF>scheduling. VI>SF>VI>Plus in order to make any progress in the Hebrew class I have to STUDY VI>SF>VI>at least a half an hour, at least five days a week. VI>SF>Easy solution, give up sleep. VI>Given the problem that I have been having sleeping for the past week VI>that's no joke Steve! If the problem continues check with a doctor. Date: Thursday, July 31, 1997 8:14am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739771 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739757, Reply to #739748, Reply to #739735, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I do not disagree with you that VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>equatible to women, however, I VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>by labeling what I do not agree VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That's easy for you to say. You'r VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>privelege. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Again, I will say that I totally agre VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>community, however, sin I leave to G- VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>And I say any class based discrimination VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>sin when it is done in G-d's name. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Wrong...YES! Sin......I will let you know a VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>G-d tells me...and boy is SHE pissed! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You have a more direct line. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>On this point, I have absolutely NO DOUBTS. Indeed, VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>to Kkid I believe that the Messiah will NOT come unt VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>treat women as full and equal members of the religio VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Talking about my family again? VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>My family too Steve. All Jews are distant cousins. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>But some are closer than others. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I find your claim that you are any closer of a family member to VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Messiah than I to be totally and completely offensive. All Jews VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>the same. VI>SF>VI>SF>Does this mean you can determine your decent from the House of Davi VI>SF>VI>SF>just like I can? VI>SF>VI>No. But so what! It's only an accident of history that you can and I VI>SF>VI>can't. VI>SF>That does not make me the bad guy. VI>I never said you were a bad guy. I said that you are annoying me by VI>braging about your alleged family connection to King David. Sometimes royalty cannot help annoying the general population. Date: Thursday, July 31, 1997 8:15am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739772 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739758, Reply to #739750, Reply to #739737, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>I>SF>NI>SF>I>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great- VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and arg VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Cute, very cute VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddish VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Wouldn't know, I don't know any yiddish VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>Neither did I back then. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Ok fine, hey, I've sang in alot of diffrent la VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>Did you always understand what you were singing? VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>Most of the time. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>That would make it more meaningful. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That's not necessarily true Steve. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>As you know I have been davening (praying for all you nonJ VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>regularly at BJ where the prayer service is almost entirel VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>At this point I can more or less read the siddur phoenicat VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>vowels still give me problems) and I can pick out a few wo VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>there in the prayers (ie. kodush = holy, baruch= blessed, VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>still can not understand most of the words. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>At Friday night service this last week at Elat Chayyim the VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>mostly in English and I found it to be flat and unmoving. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>morning, the service was in Hebrew and I found myself upli VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>In a way that I can not quite explain the Hebrew prayers s VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Jewish soul. I can diffently hear my ancestors calling to VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>sing a prayer in Hebrew, even though I know I am probably VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>words and making mistakes. So in this case for me, I get VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayer space in a language which I really don't understand VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>language I do understand. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>In your case you are feeling a personal connection to the lan VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Absolutely! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Plus Hebrew, especially Biblical Hebrew, is a holy language that VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>definite spirtual component. English is a completely mundane an VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>secular language. So a prayer said in Hebrew is not the same as VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayer said in English. I believe I am also tuning into the spi VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>component of the Hebrew language itself. VI>SF>VI>SF>How to you equate this with your egalitarian feelings? VI>SF>VI>I don't see how this conflicts with my equalitarian feelings. VI>SF>VI>Biblical Hebrew is a holy language because it was USED for holy VI>SF>VI>purposes. And the only real literature that is written in Biblical VI>SF>VI>Hebrew that still exists was written for spirtual reasons. VI>SF>VI>English, on the other hand, is predominately USED for secular purposes VI>SF>VI>and is therefore NOT a spirtual language. VI>SF>Doesn't the use of Hebrew prayers prevent the non-Hebrew speaker from VI>SF>full participation in services? VI>Yes and no. VI>If the siddur includes English transliteration of the Hebrew than the VI>non-Hebrew speaker can at least recite the prayers even if he/she does VI>not know what the prayers mean. I certainly used the transliteration VI>before I learned the Hebrew alphabet. And I still occassionally use it VI>when I get "lost" during the service. VI>And of course the non-Hebrew speaker can always learn Hebrew! Sounds like something Kkhid would have said. Date: Thursday, July 31, 1997 7:47pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739780 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739770, Reply to #739756, Reply to #739747, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my great-g SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and argue SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>Cute, very cute SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddish SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Just about anything sounds more profound in SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>earthy, gutsy langugage. :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>It can sound different depending on which dial SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That I wouldn't know. Personally I only know a f SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Yiddish. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>My father was a native Yiddish speaker, but my mo SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Yiddish. So my childhood home was anglophone only SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I remember my father speaking to his father in Y SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>father wanted to drive me crazy he would speak to SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Yiddish--because he knew I didn't understand! :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Actually I took yiddish as a language for a year in SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Steve, I am still struggling to learn Hebrew! I droppe SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>"Advanced Beginner's class" which I took at BJ because SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>the teacher. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I am considering taking a Hebrew 2 class with the teach SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Brooklyn Heights synagogue because I like her better. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>TIME! TIME! TIME!! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You will find the time if you really want to. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I have to prioritize and make a decision. I was also conside SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>taking the Rabbis' course at BJ which is one the bible and Je SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayer. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI> I can't imagine finding time for Hebrew class, the Rabbis c SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>everything else I do. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Classes in both Brooklyn and Manhattan should be a neat trick of SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>scheduling. SF>VI>SF>VI>Plus in order to make any progress in the Hebrew class I have to ST SF>VI>SF>VI>at least a half an hour, at least five days a week. SF>VI>SF>Easy solution, give up sleep. SF>VI>Given the problem that I have been having sleeping for the past week SF>VI>that's no joke Steve! SF>If the problem continues check with a doctor. I'm hoping I will be able to break it over the weekend. I think I need a nice long nap during the middle of the day--something that I won't be able to do until Saturday. Date: Thursday, July 31, 1997 7:48pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739781 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739771, Reply to #739757, Reply to #739748, R*) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I do not disagree with you t SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>equatible to women, however, SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>by labeling what I do not ag SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That's easy for you to say. Yo SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>privelege. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Again, I will say that I totally a SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>community, however, sin I leave to SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>And I say any class based discriminat SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>sin when it is done in G-d's name. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Wrong...YES! Sin......I will let you kno SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>G-d tells me...and boy is SHE pissed! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You have a more direct line. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>On this point, I have absolutely NO DOUBTS. Inde SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>to Kkid I believe that the Messiah will NOT come SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>treat women as full and equal members of the reli SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Talking about my family again? SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>My family too Steve. All Jews are distant cousins. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>But some are closer than others. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I find your claim that you are any closer of a family member SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Messiah than I to be totally and completely offensive. All J SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>the same. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Does this mean you can determine your decent from the House of D SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>just like I can? SF>VI>SF>VI>No. But so what! It's only an accident of history that you can an SF>VI>SF>VI>can't. SF>VI>SF>That does not make me the bad guy. SF>VI>I never said you were a bad guy. I said that you are annoying me by SF>VI>braging about your alleged family connection to King David. SF>Sometimes royalty cannot help annoying the general population. Well cut it out already! Date: Thursday, July 31, 1997 7:49pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739782 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739772, Reply to #739758, Reply to #739750, R*) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>I>SF>NI>SF>I>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my gre SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Cute, very cute SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddis SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Wouldn't know, I don't know any yiddi SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>SF>Neither did I back then. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>Ok fine, hey, I've sang in alot of diffrent SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>Did you always understand what you were singin SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>Most of the time. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>That would make it more meaningful. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That's not necessarily true Steve. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>As you know I have been davening (praying for all you n SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>regularly at BJ where the prayer service is almost enti SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>At this point I can more or less read the siddur phoeni SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>vowels still give me problems) and I can pick out a few SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>there in the prayers (ie. kodush = holy, baruch= blesse SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>still can not understand most of the words. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>At Friday night service this last week at Elat Chayyim SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>mostly in English and I found it to be flat and unmovin SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>morning, the service was in Hebrew and I found myself u SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>In a way that I can not quite explain the Hebrew prayer SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Jewish soul. I can diffently hear my ancestors calling SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>sing a prayer in Hebrew, even though I know I am probab SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>words and making mistakes. So in this case for me, I g SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayer space in a language which I really don't underst SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>language I do understand. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>In your case you are feeling a personal connection to the SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Absolutely! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Plus Hebrew, especially Biblical Hebrew, is a holy language t SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>definite spirtual component. English is a completely mundane SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>secular language. So a prayer said in Hebrew is not the same SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayer said in English. I believe I am also tuning into the SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>component of the Hebrew language itself. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>How to you equate this with your egalitarian feelings? SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't see how this conflicts with my equalitarian feelings. SF>VI>SF>VI>Biblical Hebrew is a holy language because it was USED for holy SF>VI>SF>VI>purposes. And the only real literature that is written in Biblical SF>VI>SF>VI>Hebrew that still exists was written for spirtual reasons. SF>VI>SF>VI>English, on the other hand, is predominately USED for secular purpo SF>VI>SF>VI>and is therefore NOT a spirtual language. SF>VI>SF>Doesn't the use of Hebrew prayers prevent the non-Hebrew speaker from SF>VI>SF>full participation in services? SF>VI>Yes and no. SF>VI>If the siddur includes English transliteration of the Hebrew than the SF>VI>non-Hebrew speaker can at least recite the prayers even if he/she does SF>VI>not know what the prayers mean. I certainly used the transliteration SF>VI>before I learned the Hebrew alphabet. And I still occassionally use it SF>VI>when I get "lost" during the service. SF>VI>And of course the non-Hebrew speaker can always learn Hebrew! SF>Sounds like something Kkhid would have said. And sometimes Kkid is right! :) Date: Thursday, July 31, 1997 10:57pm Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 739785 To: Vida Re: Nightbird's prayer (Reply to #739767, Reply to #739761, Reply to #739743, R*) (1 reply) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I pray you all humor me by letting me write one of my favorit VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>here VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be in my head & in my understanding VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be in my eyes & in my looking VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be in my mouth & in my speaking VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be in my heart & in my thinking VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be at my end & at my departing VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Thank you for sharing that wonderful prayer with me Nightbird! VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>you apologize for offering such a wonderful gift? :) VI>NI>VI>NI>Habit!!! VI>NI>VI>Then brake the habit! :) VI>NI>I'm trying, it's SOOOOOO hard! VI>Just do your best. Keep repeating to yourself: "I am a wonderful VI>woman, I have nothing to apologize for." :) I'll try! * OLX 2.1 TD * "who are we to stand in the way of prophecy?"-Delenn(B5) Date: Friday, August 1, 1997 6:44am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739789 To: Nightbird Re: Nightbird's prayer (Reply to #739785, Reply to #739767, Reply to #739761, R*) (1 reply) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I pray you all humor me by letting me write one of my favo NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>here NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be in my head & in my understanding NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be in my eyes & in my looking NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be in my mouth & in my speaking NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be in my heart & in my thinking NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be at my end & at my departing NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Thank you for sharing that wonderful prayer with me Nightbird NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>you apologize for offering such a wonderful gift? :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Habit!!! NI>VI>NI>VI>Then brake the habit! :) NI>VI>NI>I'm trying, it's SOOOOOO hard! NI>VI>Just do your best. Keep repeating to yourself: "I am a wonderful NI>VI>woman, I have nothing to apologize for." :) NI>I'll try! Me too--it is sometimes very, very hard to do. :) Date: Friday, August 1, 1997 9:17am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739791 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739780, Reply to #739770, Reply to #739756, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my grea VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and arg VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>Cute, very cute VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddish VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Just about anything sounds more profound VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>earthy, gutsy langugage. :) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>It can sound different depending on which d VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That I wouldn't know. Personally I only know VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Yiddish. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>My father was a native Yiddish speaker, but my VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Yiddish. So my childhood home was anglophone o VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I remember my father speaking to his father i VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>father wanted to drive me crazy he would speak VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Yiddish--because he knew I didn't understand! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Actually I took yiddish as a language for a year VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Steve, I am still struggling to learn Hebrew! I dro VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>"Advanced Beginner's class" which I took at BJ becau VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>the teacher. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I am considering taking a Hebrew 2 class with the te VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Brooklyn Heights synagogue because I like her better VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>TIME! TIME! TIME!! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You will find the time if you really want to. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I have to prioritize and make a decision. I was also cons VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>taking the Rabbis' course at BJ which is one the bible and VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayer. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI> I can't imagine finding time for Hebrew class, the Rabbi VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>everything else I do. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Classes in both Brooklyn and Manhattan should be a neat trick VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>scheduling. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Plus in order to make any progress in the Hebrew class I have to VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>at least a half an hour, at least five days a week. VI>SF>VI>SF>Easy solution, give up sleep. VI>SF>VI>Given the problem that I have been having sleeping for the past week VI>SF>VI>that's no joke Steve! VI>SF>If the problem continues check with a doctor. VI>I'm hoping I will be able to break it over the weekend. I think I need VI>a nice long nap during the middle of the day--something that I won't be VI>able to do until Saturday. Good luck! Date: Saturday, August 2, 1997 7:53am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739793 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739791, Reply to #739780, Reply to #739770, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>Actually, to paraphrase my g SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>high enough to climb up and SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>Cute, very cute SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>It sounded more profound in Yiddis SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Just about anything sounds more profo SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>earthy, gutsy langugage. :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>It can sound different depending on whic SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That I wouldn't know. Personally I only kn SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Yiddish. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>My father was a native Yiddish speaker, but SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Yiddish. So my childhood home was anglophon SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I remember my father speaking to his fathe SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>father wanted to drive me crazy he would sp SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Yiddish--because he knew I didn't understan SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Actually I took yiddish as a language for a ye SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Steve, I am still struggling to learn Hebrew! I SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>"Advanced Beginner's class" which I took at BJ be SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>the teacher. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I am considering taking a Hebrew 2 class with the SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Brooklyn Heights synagogue because I like her bet SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>TIME! TIME! TIME!! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You will find the time if you really want to. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I have to prioritize and make a decision. I was also c SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>taking the Rabbis' course at BJ which is one the bible SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayer. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI> I can't imagine finding time for Hebrew class, the Ra SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>everything else I do. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Classes in both Brooklyn and Manhattan should be a neat tr SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>scheduling. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Plus in order to make any progress in the Hebrew class I have SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>at least a half an hour, at least five days a week. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Easy solution, give up sleep. SF>VI>SF>VI>Given the problem that I have been having sleeping for the past wee SF>VI>SF>VI>that's no joke Steve! SF>VI>SF>If the problem continues check with a doctor. SF>VI>I'm hoping I will be able to break it over the weekend. I think I need SF>VI>a nice long nap during the middle of the day--something that I won't be SF>VI>able to do until Saturday. SF>Good luck! Actually, I am happy to report that I didn't have to wait until Saturday to break the insomnia cycle. I thankfully did that last night. I decided not to go to services at BJ last night because I was too exhausted. I came home from work and crashed. I went to sleep after watching "Jeopardy!"(7:30 PM). I Woke up this morning at 7 AM feeling a whole lot better! Date: Saturday, August 2, 1997 12:15pm Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 739796 To: Vida Re: Nightbird's prayer (Reply to #739789, Reply to #739785, Reply to #739767, R*) (1 reply) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I pray you all humor me by letting me write one of my f VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>here VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be in my head & in my understanding VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be in my eyes & in my looking VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be in my mouth & in my speaking VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be in my heart & in my thinking VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be at my end & at my departing VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Thank you for sharing that wonderful prayer with me Nightb VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>you apologize for offering such a wonderful gift? :) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Habit!!! VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Then brake the habit! :) VI>NI>VI>NI>I'm trying, it's SOOOOOO hard! VI>NI>VI>Just do your best. Keep repeating to yourself: "I am a wonderful VI>NI>VI>woman, I have nothing to apologize for." :) VI>NI>I'll try! VI>Me too--it is sometimes very, very hard to do. :) That's an understandment. I remember growing up with my Mom saying I'm sorry the same way I so!!! * OLX 2.1 TD * "Human sacrifice!...Dogs & Cats, living together!..." Date: Sunday, August 3, 1997 7:27am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739805 To: Nightbird Re: Nightbird's prayer (Reply to #739796, Reply to #739789, Reply to #739785, R*) (1 reply) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I pray you all humor me by letting me write one of m NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>here NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be in my head & in my understanding NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be in my eyes & in my looking NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be in my mouth & in my speaking NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be in my heart & in my thinking NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be at my end & at my departing NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Thank you for sharing that wonderful prayer with me Nig NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>you apologize for offering such a wonderful gift? :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Habit!!! NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Then brake the habit! :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I'm trying, it's SOOOOOO hard! NI>VI>NI>VI>Just do your best. Keep repeating to yourself: "I am a wonderful NI>VI>NI>VI>woman, I have nothing to apologize for." :) NI>VI>NI>I'll try! NI>VI>Me too--it is sometimes very, very hard to do. :) NI>That's an understandment. I remember growing up with my Mom saying I'm NI>sorry the same way I so!!! NI> * OLX 2.1 TD * "Human sacrifice!...Dogs & Cats, living together!..." She suffered from the same female disease! Date: Sunday, August 3, 1997 2:02pm Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 739817 To: Vida Re: Nightbird's prayer (Reply to #739805, Reply to #739796, Reply to #739789, R*) (1 reply) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I pray you all humor me by letting me write one o VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>here VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be in my head & in my understanding VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be in my eyes & in my looking VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be in my mouth & in my speaking VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be in my heart & in my thinking VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be at my end & at my departing VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Thank you for sharing that wonderful prayer with me VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>you apologize for offering such a wonderful gift? : VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Habit!!! VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Then brake the habit! :) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I'm trying, it's SOOOOOO hard! VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Just do your best. Keep repeating to yourself: "I am a wonderf VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>woman, I have nothing to apologize for." :) VI>NI>VI>NI>I'll try! VI>NI>VI>Me too--it is sometimes very, very hard to do. :) VI>NI>That's an understandment. I remember growing up with my Mom saying I'm VI>NI>sorry the same way I so!!! VI>She suffered from the same female disease! Yes, she still does!!! * OLX 2.1 TD * ///\oo/\\\ Bugs? What bugs? ///\oo/\\\ ///\oo/\\\ Date: Sunday, August 3, 1997 4:40pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739825 To: Nightbird Re: Nightbird's prayer (Reply to #739817, Reply to #739805, Reply to #739796, R*) (1 reply) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I pray you all humor me by letting me write on NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>here NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be in my head & in my understanding NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be in my eyes & in my looking NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be in my mouth & in my speaking NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be in my heart & in my thinking NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be at my end & at my departing NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Thank you for sharing that wonderful prayer with NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>you apologize for offering such a wonderful gift? NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Habit!!! NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Then brake the habit! :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I'm trying, it's SOOOOOO hard! NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Just do your best. Keep repeating to yourself: "I am a wond NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>woman, I have nothing to apologize for." :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I'll try! NI>VI>NI>VI>Me too--it is sometimes very, very hard to do. :) NI>VI>NI>That's an understandment. I remember growing up with my Mom saying I' NI>VI>NI>sorry the same way I so!!! NI>VI>She suffered from the same female disease! NI>Yes, she still does!!! Well, we'll have to start working on her then! :) Date: Sunday, August 3, 1997 8:09pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739828 To: ** ALL ** Re: Siddur As Spritual Road Map, part 3 (1 reply) When we say the Saturday morning prayers in the Siddur we begin to do moutain climbing. We follow the spritural pathway laid out in the siddur. The siddur we have wouldn't exist if our ancestor didn't believe in writing in books and didn't believe in innovations. Our earliest prayers were oral. In times of destruction, however, it is useful to have written words or else all would have been lost. Additionally, sometimes you have to rely upon a written prayer when your tongue is tied and you are lost for words. Prayer forms were fluid. When Guttenberg invented the printing press it made books available to everyone. The problem was standardarization set in. It cut off the flow of litigurical creativity. Most mainstream siddurs strip away mysticism out of the siddur. Why did this happen? Historically, this happened because of the break up of feudalism and the emergence of the modern state. In feudal Europe each segment of society was encapiculated and regulated. For Jews, we were guests in the host country. But we lived in a segregrated Jewish society--we were not citizens of the host country. We were Jews who lived by Jewish law, both civil and criminal. When feudalism broke up and the modern state emerged we were offered a deal. We could sign on to emerging civil states and become citizens of those states. But the price we were required to pay was that we had to disolve the Jewish infrastructure of our communities. It was a great opportunity for Jews, but it came at a high price. And in Germany, and later in the US we rushed to take this deal. We were happy to drop the shackles of our past to bring Jewish life into modernity. As part of this process it was important for Jews to discard everything that appeared to be occult or eastern. We needed a Jewish prayer service that looked like a Protestant service. Being different wasn't something to be celebrated. The Reform movement started as the Jewish response to the offer of modernity. Traditional Judaism as it existed in Europe before the Englightment is NOT the same as Orthodox Judaism today. Orthodox Judaism is a modern Jewish movement. It arose as a response to Reform Judaism, as the reaction to Reform Judaism. Traditional Judaism before the Englightment was halachially observation, but it was fluid. It varied from town to town, region to region. It was FLEXDOX, relaxed. They didn't have to continually upgrade the frumkeit of what it means to be a Yid, like the modern Orthodox movement has done. It could afford to be relzced because Jews existed in their own reality, seperate and apart from the majority. It is only when one is under attack that one's boundaries harden. When we write new prayers and innovate prayer forms we are not breaking a rule--we are continuing a tradition. It is as traditional to craft new prayers as is those who say: "There is only one way.". Hebrew is the sacred spritual language of our people. It is where the depth of our people is locked. As you learn Hebrew you unlock the Jewish soul. Biblical Hebrew has much fewer words than English, but each word packs more information. We start off the prayer service in the world of Assiyah, the world of the Body. The prayers of the world of Assiyah allow us to wake up the body and allow the soul to incorporate. If the work of your soul had been finished you might not have woken up. The question you have to ask yourself when you wake up is: What is the teaching that your soul was called to do? Why do we start in the world of the Body? Judaism is not a body denying religion. We know that if you have a back ache or other bodily pain you are going to have a hard time concentrating on prayer. This wisdom is shown in The blessing for the Body: Asher Yatzar, where we thank G-d for creating us with numerous openings and closings and where we recognize that if any one of those openings were blocked we would not be able to exist. The Asher Yatzar is a sweet blessing for the pathways of the body. We recognize that in order for the body to work it is necessary for the body to have a complex set of openings and closings, each of which has to be working properly. If the body system is not working properly it is difficult to concentrate on the other things. We also say a blesing for the soul In Elohai Neshamah we say: "My G-d, the soul You have given me, She is pure. You create Her, You form Her, And You breathe Her into Me," Reb Marcia points out that many siddurs translate the "She" as "It". However, Hebrew is a gendered language, where every noun is either masculine or feminine. The word "soul" in Hebrew is feminine. While traditional siddurs use masculine pronouns for masculine nouns, they tend to use neuter prounouns for feminine nouns. It restores some of the balance of masculinity and femininity to use feminine pronouns when the Hebrew is clearly feminine! The Elohai Neshamah can be seen as a breathing exercise. This is a prayer not just about breath, but it is intended to facilitate deep and mindful breathing. If you look at the written Hebrew you will see that many of the words of this prayer end with the Hebrew letter hay. If you recite this prayer exhaling each time a word ends with the letter hay than you will see that this prayer is all about life force breathing. In the World of Assiyah we come alive as seperate and unique beings. The soul takes on mass and weight and embodies. The prayers of the world of Assiyah jingle the joices. They awaken the body. The next rung of Jacob's Ladder is the World of Yetzirah, the world of the Heart. In Yetzirah we say prayers of halleyah! These prayers express our radical wonder and amazement in which we praise creation through the quickening of the heart. In the World of Yetzirah we send our love back into the cosmose and the take the risk of loving and being loved. In the World of Yetizirah we open our hearts, dance with the universe and give thanks for everything. The Psukei d'Zimrah: verses of psalm-song are the bridge which connects the world of Assiyah and the world of Yetzirah. These prayers give us the power we need for lift off. They give us the courage we need to take the next step. By concentrating on how G-d's glory can be seen in in creation and in the unfolding of events we cut away the mental and spirtual hindurances to proper prayer. The Psukei d'Zimrah open up with baruch sheh Amar, in which we praise creation. The baruch sheh Amar lays the foundation for the halleyahs which follow. It recreates the worlds of creation, it invites us to gestate creation and to be a full companion for creation. The Halleyah! prayers of Yetzirah almost seem repeative to us in English translation because Hebrew has such a wonderful assortment of words for praise and wonderful. When my lips move, my heart hears. More of my senses are engaged. By speaking your praise of G-d you expose more of yourself and make yourself more vulnerable. These prayers connect the internal lobe with the external love. They allow us to become more present. They are here as a springboard to lift us to go someplace further. A hallyehu is more than graveling before a self grandizing diety. It is the outpouring of our amazement, which electifies the soul and purifies the soul's energy. The next rung is the World of Briyah, The World of the Mind. In the World of Briyah the boundaries disslove and we enter into the world of oneness. Here we can do our deepest listening, which allows us to speak to G-d in the Amidah. The Borchu prayer forms the bridge from Yetzirah to Briyah. In the Borchu prayer we call ourselves into consciousness community. We call ourselves into conscious community at this point of the prayer services because we need to consolidate ourself to take the lift up and prepare ourselves for the next step. In the Kodesh we declare that G-d is Holy, sacred. We bless G-d. It has been said that one who partakes of the world without saying a Blessing or a Brachot is a shoplifter. Anytime we take of something, we have to give so that there is an energy exchange. So if the cycle of creation is to continue, we have to participate in uplifting the kidusha of a creation. Thus, traditionally Jews aim to say 100 brachas a day. A bracha is more than a hope or good intention. A brakha is a dynamic psychic action, tracing a path of unfolding from the source. In the Shema we do our deepest listening so that we can enter into the echad of oneness. We permit our boundaries to disslove. The Shema is more than a proclomation of a creed-statement of monotheistic religion. The Shema triggers a heighetned moment of ego-transending annihation in which we are dissloved of all personal boundaries, melting the individual into the Infinite Light. We come out of the disolve of Shema free of the limits of deception and face the power of the truth, emet in Hebrew. Emet is written aleph mem tov. These letters mean the infinite one is good. If we take out the aleph, the one, we are left with met, which means death. Thus, we affirm that it is the presence of the unifying energy of the One that enligtens everything and all of creation. We then sing Mi chamocha in which we ask who is like G-d among the powers? We enter into a realm where we know that there will be redemptive hand to hold us in place when we walk off the mountain top in the world of Aztilut. We reach the world of Atzilut with the Amidah, the silent standing prayer. This is the peak experience in the service. In the Amidah you are online with G-d, speaking directly to G-d, face to face. Each of the blessing of the amidah is meant to lead to the place of the still, small voice or the dound of sheer silence. It is the place of "Hello darkness my old friend". The amida is more than standing before an imaginary royal figure. To stand in Amida is to channel the Divine Bracha through our bodies and voice. We become energetically transparent like a ray of light shinning on, and nourishing the universe. After the Amidah, we are gently brought back through the worlds of b'riah, yetzirah and assiayah. The half Kaddish that is recited before the Torah reading represents the descent from Atzilut to b'riah. The Kaddish is the transition from B'riah to Yetzirah. And the Mourner's Kassish is the transition from Yetzirah to Assiyah. The goal of the prayer service is to leave the service in a heightened state from the time that you entered. Date: Sunday, August 3, 1997 8:10pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739829 To: ** ALL ** Re: What spirtual map does your prayer sevice make? Now that I have given you my class notes from Reb Marcia's class I would love to hear some discussion, from both Jews and nonJews as to what spirtual map does your prayer service/prayer book lead you on? Any discussion folks? Date: Sunday, August 3, 1997 9:07pm Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 739834 To: Vida Re: Nightbird's prayer (Reply to #739825, Reply to #739817, Reply to #739805, R*) (1 reply) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I pray you all humor me by letting me write VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>here VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be in my head & in my understanding VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be in my eyes & in my looking VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be in my mouth & in my speaking VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be in my heart & in my thinking VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be at my end & at my departing VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Thank you for sharing that wonderful prayer wi VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>you apologize for offering such a wonderful gi VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Habit!!! VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Then brake the habit! :) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I'm trying, it's SOOOOOO hard! VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Just do your best. Keep repeating to yourself: "I am a w VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>woman, I have nothing to apologize for." :) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I'll try! VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Me too--it is sometimes very, very hard to do. :) VI>NI>VI>NI>That's an understandment. I remember growing up with my Mom saying VI>NI>VI>NI>sorry the same way I so!!! VI>NI>VI>She suffered from the same female disease! VI>NI>Yes, she still does!!! VI>Well, we'll have to start working on her then! :) Good luck!!! :) * OLX 2.1 TD * *<-Tribble .<- Tribble after Jenny Craig Date: Monday, August 4, 1997 6:20am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739841 To: Nightbird Re: Nightbird's prayer (Reply to #739834, Reply to #739825, Reply to #739817, R*) (1 reply) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I pray you all humor me by letting me wr NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>here NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be in my head & in my understanding NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be in my eyes & in my looking NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be in my mouth & in my speaking NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be in my heart & in my thinking NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>God be at my end & at my departing NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Thank you for sharing that wonderful prayer NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>you apologize for offering such a wonderful NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Habit!!! NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Then brake the habit! :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I'm trying, it's SOOOOOO hard! NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Just do your best. Keep repeating to yourself: "I am NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>woman, I have nothing to apologize for." :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I'll try! NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Me too--it is sometimes very, very hard to do. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>That's an understandment. I remember growing up with my Mom say NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>sorry the same way I so!!! NI>VI>NI>VI>She suffered from the same female disease! NI>VI>NI>Yes, she still does!!! NI>VI>Well, we'll have to start working on her then! :) NI>Good luck!!! :) We can BOTH try! :) Date: Monday, August 4, 1997 9:07am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739844 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739793, Reply to #739791, Reply to #739780, R*) (1 reply) I am pleased with the good news! Date: Monday, August 4, 1997 6:44pm Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 739853 To: Vida Re: Nightbird's prayer (Reply to #739841, Reply to #739834, Reply to #739825, R*) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>She suffered from the same female disease! VI>NI>VI>NI>Yes, she still does!!! VI>NI>VI>Well, we'll have to start working on her then! :) VI>NI>Good luck!!! :) VI>We can BOTH try! :) True! * OLX 2.1 TD * Originality is merely plagiarism well concealed. Date: Monday, August 4, 1997 9:06pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739863 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739844, Reply to #739793, Reply to #739791, R*) (1 reply) SF>I am pleased with the good news! Me too! :) Date: Tuesday, August 5, 1997 7:54am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739867 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739863, Reply to #739844, Reply to #739793, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>I am pleased with the good news! VI>Me too! :) Now you can get back to scheduling your life! Date: Tuesday, August 5, 1997 4:20pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 739874 To: Vida Re: Siddur As Spritual Road Map, part 3 (Reply to #739828) (1 reply) VI>voice. We become energetically transparent like a ray of light Just some added information for you :-) As brought down in the Talmud, the main prayers were the Sh'ma and the Amidah. The early chasiddim used to spend 1 hour getting ready for praying. The praying would take atleast an hour. They would then spend another hour coming down from the high they reached during praying. They did this 3 times a day. Date: Tuesday, August 5, 1997 7:03pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739886 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739867, Reply to #739863, Reply to #739844, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>I am pleased with the good news! SF>VI>Me too! :) SF>Now you can get back to scheduling your life! I'll have to call Brooklyn Heights Synagogue and find out IF they are giving a Hebrew 2 class and WHEN it will be given. Then I will make a decision as to whether I can start up again with the Hebrew learning program! Date: Tuesday, August 5, 1997 7:04pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739887 To: Kkid Re: Siddur As Spritual Road Map, part 3 (Reply to #739874, Reply to #739828) (1 reply) KK>VI>voice. We become energetically transparent like a ray of light Did you want to say something Kkid? This is all that appeared in this message. I don't understand what your point. KK>Just some added information for you :-) KK>As brought down in the Talmud, the main prayers were the Sh'ma and the KK>Amidah. The early chasiddim used to spend 1 hour getting ready for KK>praying. The praying would take atleast an hour. They would then spend KK>another hour coming down from the high they reached during praying. KK>They did this 3 times a day. Date: Wednesday, August 6, 1997 8:23am Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 739904 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739648, Reply to #739492, Reply to #739450, R*) (2 replies) VI>SB>Hey, cant fault a guy for trying, eh? :) *chuckle* VI>Not at all, my friend. :) Thats good. Here's an interesting question I came across in a book by Steven Hawking. Did time exist before the universe was created by God? Personally, I would think it didnt, as God has no need of time in the conventional sense. What do you think? Date: Wednesday, August 6, 1997 8:24am Forum: Theology From: Sam Beckett Msg#: 739905 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739649, Reply to #739493, Reply to #739424, R*) (1 reply) Last I knew, it was up to all of us to control our individual impulses. And one quesiton I DO have...where does individual relationship with God come into all of this? It seems like the spiritual leaders take an awful lot of responsibility and power on themselves that they dont deserve. After all, they are mortal just like us. Date: Wednesday, August 6, 1997 8:55am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739907 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739886, Reply to #739867, Reply to #739863, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>I am pleased with the good news! VI>SF>VI>Me too! :) VI>SF>Now you can get back to scheduling your life! VI>I'll have to call Brooklyn Heights Synagogue and find out IF they are VI>giving a Hebrew 2 class and WHEN it will be given. Then I will make a VI>decision as to whether I can start up again with the Hebrew learning VI>program! You are the best judge of what you can handle. Date: Wednesday, August 6, 1997 3:40pm Forum: Theology From: Rand Msg#: 739927 To: Vida Re: Secret Jews (Reply to #739728) (1 reply) In a message dated 07-29-97 Vida wrote to ** ALL: There was a very interesting documentary done a few years ago about the Spanish descendants of the Conversos rediscovering Judaism. Interestingly enough, everyone in the towns where these descendants were called them Jews, and they had developed a very interesting secret culture. For example, when entering a church, they would utter Spanish words that roughly meant "Forgive me as I enter this false house of worship," and around Easter they would secretly make unleavened bread, etc. These practices were passed down as tradition until the current day, when someone put two and two together and began to talk about the history of the area to these villagers. In any event, some have attempted to learn Judaism, while others have decided to remain with their traditions as passed down, without modification, as essentially Conversos. TANSTAAFL, Rand --- * TIMM 1.3 * I'm Pro-Choice on Everything! Date: Wednesday, August 6, 1997 6:57pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739939 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739904, Reply to #739648, Reply to #739492, R*) (2 replies) SB>VI>SB>Hey, cant fault a guy for trying, eh? :) *chuckle* SB>VI>Not at all, my friend. :) SB>Thats good. Here's an interesting question I came across in a book by SB>Steven Hawking. Did time exist before the universe was created by God? SB>Personally, I would think it didnt, as God has no need of time in the SB>conventional sense. What do you think? Now, that's an interesting question! If you look at Genesis 1:1 it appears that G-d did not create time until G-d started to create the universe. As the "Living Torah" translation has this passage: "In the beginning G-d created heaven and earth. The earth was without form and empty, with darkness on the face of the depts, but G-d's spirit moved on the water's surface. G-d said, "There shall be light," and light came into existence. G-d saw that the light was good, and G-d dividied between the light and the darkness. G-d named the light "Day", and the darkness he named "night". It was evening and it was morning, one day.". While I don't take the Genesis account of creation litterally, I agree with you that G-d probably wouldn't have need of time until G-d created the universe. The real interesting question is whether our universe was the first universe G-d created or not. Perhaps G-d created time before G-d created our universe when G-d created other universes! Date: Wednesday, August 6, 1997 7:21pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739940 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739905, Reply to #739649, Reply to #739493, R*) SB>Last I knew, it was up to all of us to control our individual impulses. SB>And one quesiton I DO have...where does individual relationship with God SB>come into all of this? It seems like the spiritual leaders take an awful SB>lot of responsibility and power on themselves that they dont deserve. SB>After all, they are mortal just like us. As I see it, Jewish spirtual leaders had two alternatives when dealing with the problem of heterosexual men becoming sexually distracted by the presence of females. Alternative one was to demand that heterosexual men control this distration. Alternative two was to sexually segregrate females to remove the distraction. If you read Aviva Cantor's book "Jewish Women/Jewish Men: The Legacy of Patriachy in Jewish life" gives a very good explanation for why alternative number two was chosen. Now mind you, I don't agree 100% with every thing that Aviva Cantor has to say. But I think her explanation about WHY Jewish spirtual leaders choose sexual segregration is right on the mark. Aviva Cantor's theory is that Jewish MALE spirtual leaders choose this option because of the Jewish experience of living in exile. As Aviva Cantor states: "Jews in Exile lacked power or the possibility of attaining it. They lacked a terrority as a home base in which to estalishe a political and economic structure based on their own needs and values and to organize a military to conduct its own defense. Jews lived 'perpetually in enemy terrority', as Theodor Herzl, the founder of political Zionism, put it. They were not members of the majority ethinci group of any terroritory or even of a large ethnic minority there. They did not share the ideology (religion, culture, feeling of common national origin) or language of anhy of them. Nor were they members of these groups' classes. They were thus outside the ethnic and class struggles occurring in various terrorities but were often exploited and viewed with suspicion by parties to a power struggle and trapped in a cross fire between them." (p14) And again from page 91: "On the one hand, there was the necessity for Jewish men to comenpensate for having been deprived of power vis a vis the men of the general society. Exile deprived them of the ability to engae in physical agression and of using it to defend women and children and the community from attack. Exile reduced men to the powelessness associated with women. Since men condisedered themselves the superior gender, it was vital to keep them committed to the struggle for survival. Had Jewish men felt like sissies--which given their patriarchial mind-set, would have been the natural psychological conseuquence of deprivation of power--they might havbe lapsed into despiar and dropped out of the survival struggle. To prevent this, they had to be given more power INSIDE the community. At the very minimum, they had to continue to dominate all aspects of (Jewish) communal life--legal, social, religious. That,at least, put them on par in this respect with non Jewish men.". Date: Wednesday, August 6, 1997 7:21pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739941 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739907, Reply to #739886, Reply to #739867, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I am pleased with the good news! SF>VI>SF>VI>Me too! :) SF>VI>SF>Now you can get back to scheduling your life! SF>VI>I'll have to call Brooklyn Heights Synagogue and find out IF they are SF>VI>giving a Hebrew 2 class and WHEN it will be given. Then I will make a SF>VI>decision as to whether I can start up again with the Hebrew learning SF>VI>program! SF>You are the best judge of what you can handle. That goes without saying! :) Date: Wednesday, August 6, 1997 7:22pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739942 To: Rand Re: Secret Jews (Reply to #739927, Reply to #739728) RA>In a message dated 07-29-97 Vida wrote to ** ALL: RA>There was a very interesting documentary done a few years ago about the RA>Spanish descendants of the Conversos rediscovering Judaism. Interestingly RA>enough, everyone in the towns where these descendants were called them Jews, RA>and they had developed a very interesting secret culture. RA>For example, when entering a church, they would utter Spanish words that RA>roughly meant "Forgive me as I enter this false house of worship," and aroun RA>Easter they would secretly make unleavened bread, etc. RA>These practices were passed down as tradition until the current day, when RA>someone put two and two together and began to talk about the history of the RA>area to these villagers. RA>In any event, some have attempted to learn Judaism, while others have decide RA>to remain with their traditions as passed down, without modification, as RA>essentially Conversos. Hopefully more will attempt to learn of their lost heritage! Date: Wednesday, August 6, 1997 9:09pm Forum: Theology From: Steve C Msg#: 739949 To: Vida Re: earlier universes (Reply to #739939, Reply to #739904, Reply to #739648, R*) (1 reply) VI>SB>Thats good. Here's an interesting question I came across in a book by VI>SB>Steven Hawking. Did time exist before the universe was created by God? VI>SB>Personally, I would think it didnt, as God has no need of time in the VI>SB>conventional sense. What do you think? VI>Now, that's an interesting question! VI>If you look at Genesis 1:1 it appears that G-d did not create time VI>until G-d started to create the universe. As the "Living Torah" VI>translation has this passage: VI> "In the beginning G-d created heaven and earth. The earth was VI>without form and empty, with darkness on the face of the depts, but VI>G-d's spirit moved on the water's surface. G-d said, "There shall be VI>light," and light came into existence. G-d saw that the light was VI>good, and G-d dividied between the light and the darkness. G-d named VI>the light "Day", and the darkness he named "night". It was evening and VI>it was morning, one day.". VI>While I don't take the Genesis account of creation litterally, I agree VI>with you that G-d probably wouldn't have need of time until G-d created VI>the universe. VI>The real interesting question is whether our universe was the first VI>universe G-d created or not. Perhaps G-d created time before G-d VI>created our universe when G-d created other universes! I like that. It allows for the belief in an all powerful G*D and the existance of extraterrestials at the same time. Now another interesting question. If extraterestials do exist, will they believe in G*D , and will they worship HIM in a similar way to what we do ? * OLX 2.1 TD * Friends are the chocolate chips in the cookies of Life. Date: Thursday, August 7, 1997 7:06am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 739956 To: Steve C Re: earlier universes (Reply to #739949, Reply to #739939, Reply to #739904, R*) (2 replies) SC>VI>SB>Thats good. Here's an interesting question I came across in a book by SC>VI>SB>Steven Hawking. Did time exist before the universe was created by God? SC>VI>SB>Personally, I would think it didnt, as God has no need of time in the SC>VI>SB>conventional sense. What do you think? SC>VI>Now, that's an interesting question! SC>VI>If you look at Genesis 1:1 it appears that G-d did not create time SC>VI>until G-d started to create the universe. As the "Living Torah" SC>VI>translation has this passage: SC>VI> "In the beginning G-d created heaven and earth. The earth was SC>VI>without form and empty, with darkness on the face of the depts, but SC>VI>G-d's spirit moved on the water's surface. G-d said, "There shall be SC>VI>light," and light came into existence. G-d saw that the light was SC>VI>good, and G-d dividied between the light and the darkness. G-d named SC>VI>the light "Day", and the darkness he named "night". It was evening and SC>VI>it was morning, one day.". SC>VI>While I don't take the Genesis account of creation litterally, I agree SC>VI>with you that G-d probably wouldn't have need of time until G-d created SC>VI>the universe. SC>VI>The real interesting question is whether our universe was the first SC>VI>universe G-d created or not. Perhaps G-d created time before G-d SC>VI>created our universe when G-d created other universes! SC>I like that. It allows for the belief in an all powerful G*D and the SC>existance of extraterrestials at the same time. Sure, why do those two beliefs clash? :) SC>Now another interesting question. If extraterestials do exist, will SC>they believe in G*D , and will they worship HIM in a similar way to what SC>we do ? I think that extraterestials would believe in G*D, but not worship G*D in the same way as we do. I think extraterestials will be completely and totally different than us--they won't look like us or think like us or behave like us. PS--I like the fact that you wrote G*D with the star! I don't know if you realize it, but my rebbe (religious leader) Reb Zalman Schacter-Shalomni does the same exact thing. In this case, great minds diffently think alike! :) Date: Thursday, August 7, 1997 2:10pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 739973 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739941, Reply to #739907, Reply to #739886, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I am pleased with the good news! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Me too! :) VI>SF>VI>SF>Now you can get back to scheduling your life! VI>SF>VI>I'll have to call Brooklyn Heights Synagogue and find out IF they are VI>SF>VI>giving a Hebrew 2 class and WHEN it will be given. Then I will make a VI>SF>VI>decision as to whether I can start up again with the Hebrew learning VI>SF>VI>program! VI>SF>You are the best judge of what you can handle. VI>That goes without saying! :) And you can count on being supported for whatever you decide. Date: Thursday, August 7, 1997 8:51pm Forum: Theology From: Steve C Msg#: 739994 To: Vida Re: earlier universes (Reply to #739956, Reply to #739949, Reply to #739939, R*) (3 replies) >VI>While I don't take the Genesis account of creation litterally, I agree >VI>with you that G-d probably wouldn't have need of time until G-d create >VI>the universe. >VI>The real interesting question is whether our universe was the first >VI>universe G-d created or not. Perhaps G-d created time before G-d >VI>created our universe when G-d created other universes! >SC>I like that. It allows for the belief in an all powerful G*D and the >SC>existance of extraterrestials at the same time. VI>Sure, why do those two beliefs clash? :) Most people who believe in Creationism are against the belief in ufo's and even Evolution. They fear belief in either of them is wrong. I guess they are afraid that evidence of evolution or Ufo's may prove they are wrong. >SC>Now another interesting question. If extraterestials do exist, will >SC>they believe in G*D , and will they worship HIM in a similar way to what >SC>we do ? VI>I think that extraterestials would believe in G*D, but not worship G*D VI>in the same way as we do. I think extraterestials will be completely VI>and totally different than us--they won't look like us or think like us VI>or behave like us. I don't know about that. We believe that G*D created us in his image. If He did the same when creating life on other planets, wouldn't they resemble us somehow ? ( I realize that they might be more evolved or less evolved than us, but the basic body should be about the same.) VI>PS--I like the fact that you wrote G*D with the star! I don't know if VI>you realize it, but my rebbe (religious leader) Reb Zalman VI>Schacter-Shalomni does the same exact thing. In this case, great minds VI>diffently think alike! :) I wrote G*D without the o out of respect for you and any other Jewish posters who might read the post. The "star" seemed more appropriate in spelling His name than just using a hyphin or underscore as most people would. * OLX 2.1 TD * DO NOT ASJUST YOUR MIND-The fault id with reality! Date: Thursday, August 7, 1997 8:55pm Forum: Theology From: Steve C Msg#: 739996 To: Vida Re: earlier universes (Reply to #739956, Reply to #739949, Reply to #739939, R*) >VI>While I don't take the Genesis account of creation litterally, I agree >VI>with you that G-d probably wouldn't have need of time until G-d create >VI>the universe. >VI>The real interesting question is whether our universe was the first >VI>universe G-d created or not. Perhaps G-d created time before G-d >VI>created our universe when G-d created other universes! >SC>I like that. It allows for the belief in an all powerful G*D and the >SC>existance of extraterrestials at the same time. VI>Sure, why do those two beliefs clash? :) Most people who believe in Creationism are against the belief in ufo's and even Evolution. They fear belief in either of them is wrong. I guess they are afraid that evidence of evolution or Ufo's may prove they are wrong. >SC>Now another interesting question. If extraterestials do exist, will >SC>they believe in G*D , and will they worship HIM in a similar way to what >SC>we do ? VI>I think that extraterestials would believe in G*D, but not worship G*D VI>in the same way as we do. I think extraterestials will be completely VI>and totally different than us--they won't look like us or think like us VI>or behave like us. I don't know about that. We believe that G*D created us in his image. If He did the same when creating life on other planets, wouldn't they resemble us somehow ? ( I realize that they might be more evolved or less evolved than us, but the basic body should be about the same.) VI>PS--I like the fact that you wrote G*D with the star! I don't know if VI>you realize it, but my rebbe (religious leader) Reb Zalman VI>Schacter-Shalomni does the same exact thing. In this case, great minds VI>diffently think alike! :) I wrote G*D without the o out of respect for you and any other Jewish posters who might read the post. The "star" seemed more appropriate in spelling His name than just using a hyphin or underscore as most people would. * OLX 2.1 TD * DO NOT ASJUST YOUR MIND-The fault id with reality! Date: Friday, August 8, 1997 3:53am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 740001 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739973, Reply to #739941, Reply to #739907, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I am pleased with the good news! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Me too! :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Now you can get back to scheduling your life! SF>VI>SF>VI>I'll have to call Brooklyn Heights Synagogue and find out IF they a SF>VI>SF>VI>giving a Hebrew 2 class and WHEN it will be given. Then I will mak SF>VI>SF>VI>decision as to whether I can start up again with the Hebrew learnin SF>VI>SF>VI>program! SF>VI>SF>You are the best judge of what you can handle. SF>VI>That goes without saying! :) SF>And you can count on being supported for whatever you decide. Just be glad you don't live closer....I would try to press you into being a tutor if you did! :) Date: Friday, August 8, 1997 3:58am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 740002 To: Steve C Re: earlier universes (Reply to #739994, Reply to #739956, Reply to #739949, R*) (1 reply) SC>>VI>While I don't take the Genesis account of creation litterally, I agree SC>>VI>with you that G-d probably wouldn't have need of time until G-d create SC>>VI>the universe. SC>>VI>The real interesting question is whether our universe was the first SC>>VI>universe G-d created or not. Perhaps G-d created time before G-d SC>>VI>created our universe when G-d created other universes! SC>>SC>I like that. It allows for the belief in an all powerful G*D and the SC>>SC>existance of extraterrestials at the same time. SC>VI>Sure, why do those two beliefs clash? :) SC>Most people who believe in Creationism are against the belief in ufo's SC>and even Evolution. They fear belief in either of them is wrong. I guess SC>they are afraid that evidence of evolution or Ufo's may prove they are SC>wrong. SC>>SC>Now another interesting question. If extraterestials do exist, will SC>>SC>they believe in G*D , and will they worship HIM in a similar way to what SC>>SC>we do ? SC>VI>I think that extraterestials would believe in G*D, but not worship G*D SC>VI>in the same way as we do. I think extraterestials will be completely SC>VI>and totally different than us--they won't look like us or think like us SC>VI>or behave like us. SC>I don't know about that. We believe that G*D created us in his image. If SC>He did the same when creating life on other planets, wouldn't they SC>resemble us somehow ? ( I realize that they might be more evolved or SC>less evolved than us, but the basic body should be about the same.) SC>VI>PS--I like the fact that you wrote G*D with the star! I don't know if SC>VI>you realize it, but my rebbe (religious leader) Reb Zalman SC>VI>Schacter-Shalomni does the same exact thing. In this case, great minds SC>VI>diffently think alike! :) SC>I wrote G*D without the o out of respect for you and any other Jewish SC>posters who might read the post. SC>The "star" seemed more appropriate in spelling His name than just using SC>a hyphin or underscore as most people would. SC> * OLX 2.1 TD * DO NOT ASJUST YOUR MIND-The fault id with reality! Yes, I know that's why you did it that way and I really appreciate it. I just thought I should point out to you that Reb Zalman does the same exact thing for the same exact reason! BTW--In a telephone conversation that was "broadcast" via speaker phone to everyone at Elat Chayyim Reb Zalman urged everyone to see the movie "Contact". So he obviously does not see any conflict between a belief in G*D and a belief in extraterroristals either! :) Date: Friday, August 8, 1997 8:29am Forum: Theology From: Steve C Msg#: 740004 To: Vida Re: earlier universes (Reply to #740002, Reply to #739994, Reply to #739956, R*) (1 reply) VI>SC>VI>PS--I like the fact that you wrote G*D with the star! I don't know if VI>SC>VI>you realize it, but my rebbe (religious leader) Reb Zalman VI>SC>VI>Schacter-Shalomni does the same exact thing. In this case, great mind VI>SC>VI>diffently think alike! :) VI>SC>I wrote G*D without the o out of respect for you and any other Jewish VI>SC>posters who might read the post. VI>SC>The "star" seemed more appropriate in spelling His name than just using VI>SC>a hyphin or underscore as most people would. VI>Yes, I know that's why you did it that way and I really appreciate it. VI>I just thought I should point out to you that Reb Zalman does the same VI>exact thing for the same exact reason! BTW--In a telephone conversation VI>that was "broadcast" via speaker phone to everyone at Elat Chayyim Reb VI>Zalman urged everyone to see the movie "Contact". So he obviously does VI>not see any conflict between a belief in G*D and a belief in VI>extraterroristals either! :) I heard that it is an excellent movie. I will have to try to find the time to see it! BTW the aliens in Contact have technology that was given to them by a Greater Force. That sounds like G*D to me! --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ If a tree falls on a florist, does he make a sound? Date: Friday, August 8, 1997 9:06am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 740005 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #740001, Reply to #739973, Reply to #739941, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I am pleased with the good news! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Me too! :) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Now you can get back to scheduling your life! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I'll have to call Brooklyn Heights Synagogue and find out IF the VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>giving a Hebrew 2 class and WHEN it will be given. Then I will VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>decision as to whether I can start up again with the Hebrew lear VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>program! VI>SF>VI>SF>You are the best judge of what you can handle. VI>SF>VI>That goes without saying! :) VI>SF>And you can count on being supported for whatever you decide. VI>Just be glad you don't live closer....I would try to press you into VI>being a tutor if you did! :) That would be no problem if I was closer. Date: Friday, August 8, 1997 11:08am Forum: Theology From: Rand Msg#: 740018 To: Steve C Re: earlier universes (Reply to #739994, Reply to #739956, Reply to #739949, R*) (1 reply) In a message dated 08-07-97 Steve C wrote to Vida : >SC>I like that. It allows for the belief in an all powerful G*D and the >SC>existance of extraterrestials at the same time. VI>Sure, why do those two beliefs clash? :) SC> Most people who believe in Creationism are against the belief in ufo's SC> and even Evolution. They fear belief in either of them is wrong. I guess SC> they are afraid that evidence of evolution or Ufo's may prove they are SC> wrong. Many do, but it's a false dichotomy. Evolution and creationism aren't far apart. Assume that the creation story is completely accurate. First, G-d didn't put the sun and the moon in until the 3rd day. So you have a problem with a 24 hour "day." But even if you assume a 24 hour day, there's no conflict. The order of animal creation roughly follows the order outlined by the theory of evolution. When the evolution people say that it took, say 250,000 years for a particular thing to evolve, that's assuming it follows the time it takes today. But we're talking about G-d here. Don't you think he could speed up the process? He could hasten the metabolisms of the creatures, so that what would take a million years at the current rate of evolution would take 24 hours. Evolution merely explains the assembly instructions by which G-d created the earth and all on it in 6 days. Neither creationists nor evolutionists give G-d enough credit. TANSTAAFL, Rand --- * TIMM 1.3 * I'm Pro-Choice on Everything! Date: Friday, August 8, 1997 11:08am Forum: Theology From: Rand Msg#: 740019 To: Steve C Re: earlier universes (Reply to #739994, Reply to #739956, Reply to #739949, R*) (1 reply) In a message dated 08-07-97 Steve C wrote to Vida : VI>I think that extraterestials would believe in G*D, but not worship G*D VI>in the same way as we do. I think extraterestials will be completely VI>and totally different than us--they won't look like us or think like us VI>or behave like us. SC> I don't know about that. We believe that G*D created us in his image. If SC> He did the same when creating life on other planets, wouldn't they SC> resemble us somehow ? ( I realize that they might be more evolved or SC> less evolved than us, but the basic body should be about the same.) That He created us in his image does not mean that we "look" like him. Following what little I know of Kabbalistic concepts, it means that humans are the closest types of beings to G*d (I like the star!) because we are the only type of creature possessing the free will to do good and evil. All other creatures (including angels, BTW) lack this capacity. Thus, ET's could look completely different and act differently, and so long as they had the capacity to choose good or evil would still be in the image of G*d. TANSTAAFL, Rand --- * TIMM 1.3 * There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. Date: Friday, August 8, 1997 6:21pm Forum: Theology From: Steve C Msg#: 740035 To: Rand Re: earlier universes (Reply to #740018, Reply to #739994, Reply to #739956, R*) RA>In a message dated 08-07-97 Steve C wrote to Vida : RA>>SC>I like that. It allows for the belief in an all powerful G*D and the RA>>SC>existance of extraterrestials at the same time. RA>VI>Sure, why do those two beliefs clash? :) RA>SC> Most people who believe in Creationism are against the belief in ufo's RA>SC> and even Evolution. They fear belief in either of them is wrong. I guess RA>SC> they are afraid that evidence of evolution or Ufo's may prove they are RA>SC> wrong. RA>Many do, but it's a false dichotomy. Evolution and creationism aren't far RA>apart. RA>Assume that the creation story is completely accurate. First, G-d didn't pu RA>the sun and the moon in until the 3rd day. So you have a problem with a 24 RA>hour "day." RA>But even if you assume a 24 hour day, there's no conflict. The order of RA>animal creation roughly follows the order outlined by the theory of evolutio RA>When the evolution people say that it took, say 250,000 years for a particul RA>thing to evolve, that's assuming it follows the time it takes today. But RA>we're talking about G-d here. Don't you think he could speed up the process RA>He could hasten the metabolisms of the creatures, so that what would take a RA>million years at the current rate of evolution would take 24 hours. RA>Evolution merely explains the assembly instructions by which G-d created the RA>earth and all on it in 6 days. Neither creationists nor evolutionists give RA>G-d enough credit. I like your reasoning :) --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ There are eight million excuses in the naked city. Date: Friday, August 8, 1997 6:22pm Forum: Theology From: Steve C Msg#: 740036 To: Rand Re: earlier universes (Reply to #740019, Reply to #739994, Reply to #739956, R*) (1 reply) RA>In a message dated 08-07-97 Steve C wrote to Vida : RA>VI>I think that extraterestials would believe in G*D, but not worship G*D RA>VI>in the same way as we do. I think extraterestials will be completely RA>VI>and totally different than us--they won't look like us or think like us RA>VI>or behave like us. RA>SC> I don't know about that. We believe that G*D created us in his image. If RA>SC> He did the same when creating life on other planets, wouldn't they RA>SC> resemble us somehow ? ( I realize that they might be more evolved or RA>SC> less evolved than us, but the basic body should be about the same.) RA>That He created us in his image does not mean that we "look" like him. RA>Following what little I know of Kabbalistic concepts, it means that humans a RA>the closest types of beings to G*d (I like the star!) because we are the onl RA>type of creature possessing the free will to do good and evil. All other RA>creatures (including angels, BTW) lack this capacity. Thus, ET's could look RA>completely different and act differently, and so long as they had the capaci RA>to choose good or evil would still be in the image of G*d. Ok. I understand your point. That is an excellent possibility. It also covers one of the arguements that Evolutionist's have over the existance of G*D. IE: if he created us in his image, how can you explain evolution ? By your explanation, you could have Creationism and Evolution co-existing. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ My God, it's full of *.* - Bill Weitze Date: Saturday, August 9, 1997 5:08pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 740058 To: Steve C Re: earlier universes (Reply to #740004, Reply to #740002, Reply to #739994, R*) SC>VI>SC>VI>PS--I like the fact that you wrote G*D with the star! I don't know SC>VI>SC>VI>you realize it, but my rebbe (religious leader) Reb Zalman SC>VI>SC>VI>Schacter-Shalomni does the same exact thing. In this case, great m SC>VI>SC>VI>diffently think alike! :) SC>VI>SC>I wrote G*D without the o out of respect for you and any other Jewish SC>VI>SC>posters who might read the post. SC>VI>SC>The "star" seemed more appropriate in spelling His name than just usin SC>VI>SC>a hyphin or underscore as most people would. SC>VI>Yes, I know that's why you did it that way and I really appreciate it. SC>VI>I just thought I should point out to you that Reb Zalman does the same SC>VI>exact thing for the same exact reason! BTW--In a telephone conversation SC>VI>that was "broadcast" via speaker phone to everyone at Elat Chayyim Reb SC>VI>Zalman urged everyone to see the movie "Contact". So he obviously does SC>VI>not see any conflict between a belief in G*D and a belief in SC>VI>extraterroristals either! :) SC>I heard that it is an excellent movie. I will have to try to find the SC>time to see it! SC>BTW the aliens in Contact have technology that was given to them by a SC>Greater Force. That sounds like G*D to me! SC>--- Which is why Reb Zelman probably recommends the movie! :) I haven't had the chance to see it yet, either, btw. And I managed to get tickets for "On the Town" for tonite, so it will have to wait for another two weeks to catch it with Bob. Date: Saturday, August 9, 1997 5:09pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 740059 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #740005, Reply to #740001, Reply to #739973, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I am pleased with the good news! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Me too! :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Now you can get back to scheduling your life! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I'll have to call Brooklyn Heights Synagogue and find out IF SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>giving a Hebrew 2 class and WHEN it will be given. Then I wi SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>decision as to whether I can start up again with the Hebrew l SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>program! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You are the best judge of what you can handle. SF>VI>SF>VI>That goes without saying! :) SF>VI>SF>And you can count on being supported for whatever you decide. SF>VI>Just be glad you don't live closer....I would try to press you into SF>VI>being a tutor if you did! :) SF>That would be no problem if I was closer. But you're not! :( Date: Sunday, August 10, 1997 12:10pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 740077 To: Vida Re: Siddur As Spritual Road Map, part 3 (Reply to #739887, Reply to #739874, Reply to #739828) (1 reply) VI>Did you want to say something Kkid? This is all that appeared in this VI>message. I don't understand what your point. Had you scrolled all the way down, you would have seen the intended message. I will do some deleting here of blank lines so the message will appear. VI>KK>Just some added information for you :-) VI>KK>As brought down in the Talmud, the main prayers were the Sh'ma and the VI>KK>Amidah. The early chasiddim used to spend 1 hour getting ready for VI>KK>praying. The praying would take atleast an hour. They would then spend VI>KK>another hour coming down from the high they reached during praying. VI>KK>They did this 3 times a day. Date: Sunday, August 10, 1997 12:13pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 740078 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739939, Reply to #739904, Reply to #739648, R*) (1 reply) VI>SB>Thats good. Here's an interesting question I came across in a book by VI>SB>Steven Hawking. Did time exist before the universe was created by God? VI>SB>Personally, I would think it didnt, as God has no need of time in the VI>SB>conventional sense. What do you think? VI>Now, that's an interesting question! VI>If you look at Genesis 1:1 it appears that G-d did not create time VI>until G-d started to create the universe. As the "Living Torah" VI>translation has this passage: VI> "In the beginning G-d created heaven and earth. The earth was VI>without form and empty, with darkness on the face of the depts, but VI>G-d's spirit moved on the water's surface. G-d said, "There shall be VI>light," and light came into existence. G-d saw that the light was VI>good, and G-d dividied between the light and the darkness. G-d named VI>the light "Day", and the darkness he named "night". It was evening and VI>it was morning, one day.". VI>While I don't take the Genesis account of creation litterally, I agree VI>with you that G-d probably wouldn't have need of time until G-d created VI>the universe. VI>The real interesting question is whether our universe was the first VI>universe G-d created or not. Perhaps G-d created time before G-d VI>created our universe when G-d created other universes! Perhaps DAY as a unit of time was created? That does not negate the fact that time did exist before the creation of our world. BTW there are midrashim that G-d did create other worlds before ours. Date: Sunday, August 10, 1997 7:20pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 740081 To: Kkid Re: Siddur As Spritual Road Map, part 3 (Reply to #740077, Reply to #739887, Reply to #739874, R*) KK>VI>Did you want to say something Kkid? This is all that appeared in this KK>VI>message. I don't understand what your point. KK>Had you scrolled all the way down, you would have seen the intended KK>message. KK>I will do some deleting here of blank lines so the message will appear. Sorry about that! I thought I had scrolled down all the way. KK>VI>KK>Just some added information for you :-) KK>VI>KK>As brought down in the Talmud, the main prayers were the Sh'ma and the KK>VI>KK>Amidah. The early chasiddim used to spend 1 hour getting ready for KK>VI>KK>praying. The praying would take atleast an hour. They would then spend KK>VI>KK>another hour coming down from the high they reached during praying. KK>VI>KK>They did this 3 times a day. Thanks for the info! It doesn't surprise me! Date: Sunday, August 10, 1997 7:23pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 740082 To: Kkid Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #740078, Reply to #739939, Reply to #739904, R*) KK>VI>SB>Thats good. Here's an interesting question I came across in a book by KK>VI>SB>Steven Hawking. Did time exist before the universe was created by God? KK>VI>SB>Personally, I would think it didnt, as God has no need of time in the KK>VI>SB>conventional sense. What do you think? KK>VI>Now, that's an interesting question! KK>VI>If you look at Genesis 1:1 it appears that G-d did not create time KK>VI>until G-d started to create the universe. As the "Living Torah" KK>VI>translation has this passage: KK>VI> "In the beginning G-d created heaven and earth. The earth was KK>VI>without form and empty, with darkness on the face of the depts, but KK>VI>G-d's spirit moved on the water's surface. G-d said, "There shall be KK>VI>light," and light came into existence. G-d saw that the light was KK>VI>good, and G-d dividied between the light and the darkness. G-d named KK>VI>the light "Day", and the darkness he named "night". It was evening and KK>VI>it was morning, one day.". KK>VI>While I don't take the Genesis account of creation litterally, I agree KK>VI>with you that G-d probably wouldn't have need of time until G-d created KK>VI>the universe. KK>VI>The real interesting question is whether our universe was the first KK>VI>universe G-d created or not. Perhaps G-d created time before G-d KK>VI>created our universe when G-d created other universes! KK>Perhaps DAY as a unit of time was created? That does not negate the fact KK>that time did exist before the creation of our world. KK>BTW there are midrashim that G-d did create other worlds before ours. I am not familiar with the midrashim which you refer--but it makes sense to me. It would also follow logically that if G*D created other worlds before our world, than time would have to been created before our world also. I don't think mortal beings can exist without time also existing. Date: Monday, August 11, 1997 2:12pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 740088 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #740059, Reply to #740005, Reply to #740001, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I am pleased with the good news! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Me too! :) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Now you can get back to scheduling your life! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I'll have to call Brooklyn Heights Synagogue and find out VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>giving a Hebrew 2 class and WHEN it will be given. Then I VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>decision as to whether I can start up again with the Hebre VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>program! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You are the best judge of what you can handle. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That goes without saying! :) VI>SF>VI>SF>And you can count on being supported for whatever you decide. VI>SF>VI>Just be glad you don't live closer....I would try to press you into VI>SF>VI>being a tutor if you did! :) VI>SF>That would be no problem if I was closer. VI>But you're not! :( Some people have all the luck. Date: Monday, August 11, 1997 4:49pm Forum: Theology From: Rand Msg#: 740103 To: Steve C Re: earlier universes (Reply to #740036, Reply to #740019, Reply to #739994, R*) In a message dated 08-08-97 Steve C wrote to Rand : RA>That He created us in his image does not mean that we "look" like him. RA>Following what little I know of Kabbalistic concepts, it means that humans RA>a RA>the closest types of beings to G*d (I like the star!) because we are the RA>onl RA>type of creature possessing the free will to do good and evil. All other RA>creatures (including angels, BTW) lack this capacity. Thus, ET's could RA>look RA>completely different and act differently, and so long as they had the RA>capaci RA>to choose good or evil would still be in the image of G*d. SC> Ok. I understand your point. SC> That is an excellent possibility. SC> It also covers one of the arguements that Evolutionist's have over the SC> existance of G*D. IE: if he created us in his image, how can you explain SC> evolution ? SC> By your explanation, you could have Creationism and Evolution SC> co-existing. Easily. As I noted, I think Creationism/Evolution is a false dichotomy. TANSTAAFL, Rand --- * TIMM 1.3 * There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. Date: Monday, August 11, 1997 8:57pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 740119 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #740088, Reply to #740059, Reply to #740005, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I am pleased with the good news! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Me too! :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Now you can get back to scheduling your life! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I'll have to call Brooklyn Heights Synagogue and find o SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>giving a Hebrew 2 class and WHEN it will be given. The SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>decision as to whether I can start up again with the He SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>program! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You are the best judge of what you can handle. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That goes without saying! :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>And you can count on being supported for whatever you decide. SF>VI>SF>VI>Just be glad you don't live closer....I would try to press you into SF>VI>SF>VI>being a tutor if you did! :) SF>VI>SF>That would be no problem if I was closer. SF>VI>But you're not! :( SF>Some people have all the luck. Since I'm a Brooklyn person, I'm the one with the luck! :) Date: Tuesday, August 12, 1997 1:51pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 740129 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #740119, Reply to #740088, Reply to #740059, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I am pleased with the good news! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Me too! :) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Now you can get back to scheduling your life! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I'll have to call Brooklyn Heights Synagogue and fin VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>giving a Hebrew 2 class and WHEN it will be given. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>decision as to whether I can start up again with the VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>program! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You are the best judge of what you can handle. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That goes without saying! :) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>And you can count on being supported for whatever you decide. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Just be glad you don't live closer....I would try to press you i VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>being a tutor if you did! :) VI>SF>VI>SF>That would be no problem if I was closer. VI>SF>VI>But you're not! :( VI>SF>Some people have all the luck. VI>Since I'm a Brooklyn person, I'm the one with the luck! :) Not exactly...... Date: Tuesday, August 12, 1997 6:58pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 740132 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #740129, Reply to #740119, Reply to #740088, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I am pleased with the good news! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Me too! :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Now you can get back to scheduling your life! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I'll have to call Brooklyn Heights Synagogue and SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>giving a Hebrew 2 class and WHEN it will be given SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>decision as to whether I can start up again with SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>program! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You are the best judge of what you can handle. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That goes without saying! :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>And you can count on being supported for whatever you deci SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Just be glad you don't live closer....I would try to press yo SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>being a tutor if you did! :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>That would be no problem if I was closer. SF>VI>SF>VI>But you're not! :( SF>VI>SF>Some people have all the luck. SF>VI>Since I'm a Brooklyn person, I'm the one with the luck! :) SF>Not exactly...... You think Queens is a lucky place. As a Queens college grad and former Queens resident, I say: NOT! :) Date: Wednesday, August 13, 1997 2:16pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 740145 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #740132, Reply to #740129, Reply to #740119, R*) (1 reply) So.....have you made any decisions about all the class options? Date: Wednesday, August 13, 1997 7:05pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 740152 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #740145, Reply to #740132, Reply to #740129, R*) (1 reply) SF>So.....have you made any decisions about all the class options? It's still up in the air. I called up Brooklyn Heights Synagogue and they haven't decided yet when to offer Hebrew 2 for the fall. BJ still hasn't published their fall schedule for BJ's classes, either. So I just will have to wait till September--I suppose all of the shuls will have their classes start right after the High Holidays and will publicize their classes at the holiday services. Date: Thursday, August 14, 1997 3:06pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 740203 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #740152, Reply to #740145, Reply to #740132, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>So.....have you made any decisions about all the class options? VI>It's still up in the air. I called up Brooklyn Heights Synagogue and VI>they haven't decided yet when to offer Hebrew 2 for the fall. BJ still VI>hasn't published their fall schedule for BJ's classes, either. VI>So I just will have to wait till September--I suppose all of the shuls VI>will have their classes start right after the High Holidays and will VI>publicize their classes at the holiday services. If they wait until then it will be late October before they start. Date: Friday, August 15, 1997 6:58am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 740227 To: ** ALL ** Re: The good deed link (1 reply) This is from an article which appearaed in "The Manhattan Jewish Sentinel" of August 15-21, 1997. I have no way of verifying the project, but I thought that it was an excellent idea: "Let us do something positive together," says Rabbi Anchelle Perl, director of the National Committee for the Furtherance of Jewish Education of Nassau County, New York. Searching for people to do six million good deeds in memory of the six million people who died in the Holocasut, he invites everyone to send in their good deed on an index card, together with a paper clip, which will be used to create a chain that is expected to reach 140 miles long. "The chain will help in some small way, He says, to teach us to appreciate the enormity of six million victims and place great emphasis on what we can accomplish, when so many people of good faith link their good deeds together." Mail to: The Good Deed Link c/o Rabbi Perl, 261 Willis Avenue, Mineola, NY Date: Friday, August 15, 1997 7:05am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 740228 To: ** ALL ** Re: JUICE offerings for Fall 1997 Many of you are familiar with JUICE, the Jewish University in CYPERSPACE. They offer FREE classes which you get via internet e mail. I have taken some of the their offerings in the past and have found them quite good. Here are their offerings for Fal 1997: ====================================================================== World Zionist Organization Student and Academics Department Jewish University in CyberspacE juice@wzo.org.il birnbaum@wzo.org.il http://www.wzo.org.il ====================================================================== Jewish University In CyberspacE (J.U.I.C.E) Fall 1997 Course Catalog Welcome to the Fall 1997 session of the Jewish University in CyberspacE (J.U.I.C.E.). We are offering six courses that will run for 12 sessions starting September 16. Each lecture will be sent out weekly with the opportunity for discussion with the instructor and other participants. Know that as in the past, there is NO FEE for these courses. This semester we are offering: * Introduction to Second Temple History * Jewish Mysticism: Major Concepts and Historical Trends * Literary and Artistic Aspects of the Biblical Narrative * The Prayer Book As A Window On Jewish Theology * Actors on the World's Stage: Jewish Life in the Diaspora * Art and Judaism: Visual symbol and Jewish content For more detailed descriptions and instructions on how to subscribe to the courses, please see below. For more information, write to: Jewish University in CyberspacE NOTE: You can also subscribe directly from the JUICE web site: http://www.wzo.org.il/juice/index.htm Date: Friday, August 15, 1997 2:42pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 740247 To: Vida Re: The good deed link (Reply to #740227) (1 reply) VI>This is from an article which appearaed in "The Manhattan Jewish VI>Sentinel" of August 15-21, 1997. I have no way of verifying the VI>project, but I thought that it was an excellent idea: VI>"Let us do something positive together," says Rabbi Anchelle Perl, VI>director of the National Committee for the Furtherance of Jewish VI>Education of Nassau County, New York. Searching for people to do six VI>million good deeds in memory of the six million people who died in the VI>Holocasut, he invites everyone to send in their good deed on an index VI>card, together with a paper clip, which will be used to create a chain VI>that is expected to reach 140 miles long. VI>"The chain will help in some small way, He says, to teach us to VI>appreciate the enormity of six million victims and place great emphasis VI>on what we can accomplish, when so many people of good faith link their VI>good deeds together." Mail to: The Good Deed Link c/o Rabbi Perl, 261 VI>Willis Avenue, Mineola, NY FYI this organization is affiliated with Lubavich. Date: Sunday, August 17, 1997 12:29pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 740292 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #740203, Reply to #740152, Reply to #740145, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>So.....have you made any decisions about all the class options? SF>VI>It's still up in the air. I called up Brooklyn Heights Synagogue and SF>VI>they haven't decided yet when to offer Hebrew 2 for the fall. BJ still SF>VI>hasn't published their fall schedule for BJ's classes, either. SF>VI>So I just will have to wait till September--I suppose all of the shuls SF>VI>will have their classes start right after the High Holidays and will SF>VI>publicize their classes at the holiday services. SF>If they wait until then it will be late October before they start. My best guess is that they will start up classes right after Yom Kippur, the week of October 13. But I'll have to wait and see if my "best guess" is right. I gave my telephone number to the person at Brooklyn Heights Synagogue and she promised they would call me when they have their class schedule ready. (I can also periodically check their web page since they have one.) I will find out about BJ's classes from the "Kol Jeshurun"--the weekly annoucement sheet they hand out at services. Date: Sunday, August 17, 1997 12:30pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 740293 To: Steve Flur Re: The good deed link (Reply to #740247, Reply to #740227) (1 reply) SF>VI>This is from an article which appearaed in "The Manhattan Jewish SF>VI>Sentinel" of August 15-21, 1997. I have no way of verifying the SF>VI>project, but I thought that it was an excellent idea: SF>VI>"Let us do something positive together," says Rabbi Anchelle Perl, SF>VI>director of the National Committee for the Furtherance of Jewish SF>VI>Education of Nassau County, New York. Searching for people to do six SF>VI>million good deeds in memory of the six million people who died in the SF>VI>Holocasut, he invites everyone to send in their good deed on an index SF>VI>card, together with a paper clip, which will be used to create a chain SF>VI>that is expected to reach 140 miles long. SF>VI>"The chain will help in some small way, He says, to teach us to SF>VI>appreciate the enormity of six million victims and place great emphasis SF>VI>on what we can accomplish, when so many people of good faith link their SF>VI>good deeds together." Mail to: The Good Deed Link c/o Rabbi Perl, 261 SF>VI>Willis Avenue, Mineola, NY SF>FYI this organization is affiliated with Lubavich. Ok. So??? Date: Tuesday, August 19, 1997 11:33am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 740389 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #740292, Reply to #740203, Reply to #740152, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>So.....have you made any decisions about all the class options? VI>SF>VI>It's still up in the air. I called up Brooklyn Heights Synagogue and VI>SF>VI>they haven't decided yet when to offer Hebrew 2 for the fall. BJ stil VI>SF>VI>hasn't published their fall schedule for BJ's classes, either. VI>SF>VI>So I just will have to wait till September--I suppose all of the shuls VI>SF>VI>will have their classes start right after the High Holidays and will VI>SF>VI>publicize their classes at the holiday services. VI>SF>If they wait until then it will be late October before they start. VI>My best guess is that they will start up classes right after Yom VI>Kippur, the week of October 13. But I'll have to wait and see if my VI>"best guess" is right. VI>I gave my telephone number to the person at Brooklyn Heights Synagogue VI>and she promised they would call me when they have their class schedule VI>ready. (I can also periodically check their web page since they have VI>one.) I will find out about BJ's classes from the "Kol Jeshurun"--the VI>weekly annoucement sheet they hand out at services. Stay alert and keep checking. Date: Tuesday, August 19, 1997 11:35am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 740390 To: Vida Re: The good deed link (Reply to #740293, Reply to #740247, Reply to #740227) (2 replies) VI>SF>VI>This is from an article which appearaed in "The Manhattan Jewish VI>SF>VI>Sentinel" of August 15-21, 1997. I have no way of verifying the VI>SF>VI>project, but I thought that it was an excellent idea: VI>SF>VI>"Let us do something positive together," says Rabbi Anchelle Perl, VI>SF>VI>director of the National Committee for the Furtherance of Jewish VI>SF>VI>Education of Nassau County, New York. Searching for people to do six VI>SF>VI>million good deeds in memory of the six million people who died in the VI>SF>VI>Holocasut, he invites everyone to send in their good deed on an index VI>SF>VI>card, together with a paper clip, which will be used to create a chain VI>SF>VI>that is expected to reach 140 miles long. VI>SF>VI>"The chain will help in some small way, He says, to teach us to VI>SF>VI>appreciate the enormity of six million victims and place great emphasi VI>SF>VI>on what we can accomplish, when so many people of good faith link thei VI>SF>VI>good deeds together." Mail to: The Good Deed Link c/o Rabbi Perl, 261 VI>SF>VI>Willis Avenue, Mineola, NY VI>SF>FYI this organization is affiliated with Lubavich. VI>Ok. So??? The family that runs this organization has a history of inditements and convictions for misuse of federal funds but justfying their actions by saying they were not stealing for themselves but for the Rebbe. Date: Wednesday, August 20, 1997 6:55am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 740411 To: ** ALL ** Re: Lecture at NYU Law I thought some of you might be interested in this lecture. I am planning to go. If anyone wants to meet me there, drop me a line in e mail and perhaps we can arrange to meet to have a bite to eat before hand? Here's the annoucement: NYU Law School presents: The Fall 1997 Caroline and Joseph S. Gruss Lecture in Talmudic Civil Law The Value of a Jewish and Democratic State: The Task of Reaching a Synthesis Given by: Manachem Elon, Deputy President of the Supreme Court of Israel, Retired, Professor of Talmudic Civil Law Tuesday, September 9, 1997 7:30 PM Tishman Auditorium, Vanderbilt Hall, NYU School of Law, 40 Washington Square South, NY, NY Reception to follow the lecture The lecture is free and open to the public. Call Flo Dawson (212) 998-6814 if you plan to attend. Date: Wednesday, August 20, 1997 9:19am Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 740425 To: Steve Flur Re: The good deed link (Reply to #740390, Reply to #740293, Reply to #740247, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>good deeds together." Mail to: The Good Deed Link c/o Rabbi Perl, 2 SF>VI>SF>VI>Willis Avenue, Mineola, NY SF>VI>SF>FYI this organization is affiliated with Lubavich. SF>VI>Ok. So??? SF>The family that runs this organization has a history of inditements and SF>convictions for misuse of federal funds but justfying their actions by SF>saying they were not stealing for themselves but for the Rebbe. You're so pathetic, sometimes. Your comment was that the organization is affiliated with Lubavich (sic). Are you now saying that Lubavich has a history of indictments and convictions for misuse of federal funds??? If not, then answer Vida's question. Who cares if they are affiliated with Lubavich? If you wanted to make the statement you are now making then you simply should have stated that the Good Deed Link is a shady operation. Although I would not believe you anyway. Date: Wednesday, August 20, 1997 1:51pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 740433 To: Kkid Re: The good deed link (Reply to #740425, Reply to #740390, Reply to #740293, R*) (1 reply) KK>SF>VI>SF>VI>good deeds together." Mail to: The Good Deed Link c/o Rabbi Perl KK>SF>VI>SF>VI>Willis Avenue, Mineola, NY KK>SF>VI>SF>FYI this organization is affiliated with Lubavich. KK>SF>VI>Ok. So??? KK>SF>The family that runs this organization has a history of inditements and KK>SF>convictions for misuse of federal funds but justfying their actions by KK>SF>saying they were not stealing for themselves but for the Rebbe. KK>You're so pathetic, sometimes. KK>Your comment was that the organization is affiliated with Lubavich KK>(sic). Are you now saying that Lubavich has a history of indictments and KK>convictions for misuse of federal funds??? If not, then answer Vida's KK>question. Who cares if they are affiliated with Lubavich? If you wanted KK>to make the statement you are now making then you simply should have KK>stated that the Good Deed Link is a shady operation. Although I would KK>not believe you anyway. The organization sponsoring this link is presently run by Rabbi Shea Hecht and was previously run by his father, both of whom along with a brother were indited on charges and convicted of misuse of federal job training funds and yet justified their illegal actions on religious grounds, making at least myself highly suspect of the rest of their activities. My feelings extend to the Lubavich organization by their maintaing the Hechts in positions of influence. Date: Thursday, August 21, 1997 8:02am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 740451 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #740389, Reply to #740292, Reply to #740203, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>So.....have you made any decisions about all the class options? SF>VI>SF>VI>It's still up in the air. I called up Brooklyn Heights Synagogue a SF>VI>SF>VI>they haven't decided yet when to offer Hebrew 2 for the fall. BJ s SF>VI>SF>VI>hasn't published their fall schedule for BJ's classes, either. SF>VI>SF>VI>So I just will have to wait till September--I suppose all of the sh SF>VI>SF>VI>will have their classes start right after the High Holidays and wil SF>VI>SF>VI>publicize their classes at the holiday services. SF>VI>SF>If they wait until then it will be late October before they start. SF>VI>My best guess is that they will start up classes right after Yom SF>VI>Kippur, the week of October 13. But I'll have to wait and see if my SF>VI>"best guess" is right. SF>VI>I gave my telephone number to the person at Brooklyn Heights Synagogue SF>VI>and she promised they would call me when they have their class schedule SF>VI>ready. (I can also periodically check their web page since they have SF>VI>one.) I will find out about BJ's classes from the "Kol Jeshurun"--the SF>VI>weekly annoucement sheet they hand out at services. SF>Stay alert and keep checking. I intend to! :) As it stands now, I can understand some whole lines in a few of the prayers. But mostly it is a word here and a word there. It would really be nice to be able to pick up the siddur and understand ALL the prayers! Date: Thursday, August 21, 1997 8:04am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 740452 To: Steve Flur Re: The good deed link (Reply to #740390, Reply to #740293, Reply to #740247, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>This is from an article which appearaed in "The Manhattan Jewish SF>VI>SF>VI>Sentinel" of August 15-21, 1997. I have no way of verifying the SF>VI>SF>VI>project, but I thought that it was an excellent idea: SF>VI>SF>VI>"Let us do something positive together," says Rabbi Anchelle Perl, SF>VI>SF>VI>director of the National Committee for the Furtherance of Jewish SF>VI>SF>VI>Education of Nassau County, New York. Searching for people to do s SF>VI>SF>VI>million good deeds in memory of the six million people who died in SF>VI>SF>VI>Holocasut, he invites everyone to send in their good deed on an ind SF>VI>SF>VI>card, together with a paper clip, which will be used to create a ch SF>VI>SF>VI>that is expected to reach 140 miles long. SF>VI>SF>VI>"The chain will help in some small way, He says, to teach us to SF>VI>SF>VI>appreciate the enormity of six million victims and place great emph SF>VI>SF>VI>on what we can accomplish, when so many people of good faith link t SF>VI>SF>VI>good deeds together." Mail to: The Good Deed Link c/o Rabbi Perl, 2 SF>VI>SF>VI>Willis Avenue, Mineola, NY SF>VI>SF>FYI this organization is affiliated with Lubavich. SF>VI>Ok. So??? SF>The family that runs this organization has a history of inditements and SF>convictions for misuse of federal funds but justfying their actions by SF>saying they were not stealing for themselves but for the Rebbe. What has this have to do with the Good Deed Link? Just because the family that is running the organization may be bad doesn't mean the idea is not a good idea. One of the things that I like about being a Liberal Jew is that I can take what I like from Orthodox Judaism and disregard the rest. :) Date: Thursday, August 21, 1997 10:35am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 740453 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #740451, Reply to #740389, Reply to #740292, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>So.....have you made any decisions about all the class option VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>It's still up in the air. I called up Brooklyn Heights Synagogu VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>they haven't decided yet when to offer Hebrew 2 for the fall. B VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>hasn't published their fall schedule for BJ's classes, either. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>So I just will have to wait till September--I suppose all of the VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>will have their classes start right after the High Holidays and VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>publicize their classes at the holiday services. VI>SF>VI>SF>If they wait until then it will be late October before they start. VI>SF>VI>My best guess is that they will start up classes right after Yom VI>SF>VI>Kippur, the week of October 13. But I'll have to wait and see if my VI>SF>VI>"best guess" is right. VI>SF>VI>I gave my telephone number to the person at Brooklyn Heights Synagogue VI>SF>VI>and she promised they would call me when they have their class schedul VI>SF>VI>ready. (I can also periodically check their web page since they have VI>SF>VI>one.) I will find out about BJ's classes from the "Kol Jeshurun"--the VI>SF>VI>weekly annoucement sheet they hand out at services. VI>SF>Stay alert and keep checking. VI>I intend to! :) VI>As it stands now, I can understand some whole lines in a few of the VI>prayers. But mostly it is a word here and a word there. It would VI>really be nice to be able to pick up the siddur and understand ALL the VI>prayers! ALL may not happen that quickly. Date: Thursday, August 21, 1997 10:36am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 740454 To: Vida Re: The good deed link (Reply to #740452, Reply to #740390, Reply to #740293, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>This is from an article which appearaed in "The Manhattan Jewish VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Sentinel" of August 15-21, 1997. I have no way of verifying the VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>project, but I thought that it was an excellent idea: VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>"Let us do something positive together," says Rabbi Anchelle Per VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>director of the National Committee for the Furtherance of Jewish VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Education of Nassau County, New York. Searching for people to d VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>million good deeds in memory of the six million people who died VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Holocasut, he invites everyone to send in their good deed on an VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>card, together with a paper clip, which will be used to create a VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>that is expected to reach 140 miles long. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>"The chain will help in some small way, He says, to teach us to VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>appreciate the enormity of six million victims and place great e VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>on what we can accomplish, when so many people of good faith lin VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>good deeds together." Mail to: The Good Deed Link c/o Rabbi Perl VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Willis Avenue, Mineola, NY VI>SF>VI>SF>FYI this organization is affiliated with Lubavich. VI>SF>VI>Ok. So??? VI>SF>The family that runs this organization has a history of inditements and VI>SF>convictions for misuse of federal funds but justfying their actions by VI>SF>saying they were not stealing for themselves but for the Rebbe. VI>What has this have to do with the Good Deed Link? Just because the VI>family that is running the organization may be bad doesn't mean the VI>idea is not a good idea. VI> VI>One of the things that I like about being a Liberal Jew is that I can VI>take what I like from Orthodox Judaism and disregard the rest. :) I remain suspecious of seemingly good deeds being organized by unrepentent felons. Date: Thursday, August 21, 1997 4:47pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 740467 To: Steve Flur Re: The good deed link (Reply to #740433, Reply to #740425, Reply to #740390, R*) (1 reply) SF>KK>SF>VI>SF>VI>good deeds together." Mail to: The Good Deed Link c/o Rabbi P SF>KK>SF>VI>SF>VI>Willis Avenue, Mineola, NY SF>KK>SF>VI>SF>FYI this organization is affiliated with Lubavich. SF>KK>SF>VI>Ok. So??? SF>KK>SF>The family that runs this organization has a history of inditements an SF>KK>SF>convictions for misuse of federal funds but justfying their actions by SF>KK>SF>saying they were not stealing for themselves but for the Rebbe. SF>KK>You're so pathetic, sometimes. SF>KK>Your comment was that the organization is affiliated with Lubavich SF>KK>(sic). Are you now saying that Lubavich has a history of indictments and SF>KK>convictions for misuse of federal funds??? If not, then answer Vida's SF>KK>question. Who cares if they are affiliated with Lubavich? If you wanted SF>KK>to make the statement you are now making then you simply should have SF>KK>stated that the Good Deed Link is a shady operation. Although I would SF>KK>not believe you anyway. SF>The organization sponsoring this link is presently run by Rabbi Shea SF>Hecht and was previously run by his father, both of whom along with a SF>brother were indited on charges and convicted of misuse of federal job SF>training funds and yet justified their illegal actions on religious SF>grounds, making at least myself highly suspect of the rest of their SF>activities. SF>My feelings extend to the Lubavich organization by their maintaing the SF>Hechts in positions of influence. Your comment was that they are affiliated with Lubavitch. When Vida said so what, then you expounded. There are organizations galore, too numerous to count that are affiliated with Lubavitch. You are definitely wrong to generalize in the manner you are generalizing. Date: Thursday, August 21, 1997 7:56pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 740479 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #740453, Reply to #740451, Reply to #740389, R*) (1 reply) (Previous exchanges ommittted) SF>VI>As it stands now, I can understand some whole lines in a few of the SF>VI>prayers. But mostly it is a word here and a word there. It would SF>VI>really be nice to be able to pick up the siddur and understand ALL the SF>VI>prayers! SF>ALL may not happen that quickly. I don't expect it to happen quickly. But I do hope it will happen! Date: Thursday, August 21, 1997 7:59pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 740480 To: Steve Flur Re: The good deed link (Reply to #740454, Reply to #740452, Reply to #740390, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>This is from an article which appearaed in "The Manhattan Jew SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Sentinel" of August 15-21, 1997. I have no way of verifying SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>project, but I thought that it was an excellent idea: SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>"Let us do something positive together," says Rabbi Anchelle SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>director of the National Committee for the Furtherance of Jew SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Education of Nassau County, New York. Searching for people t SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>million good deeds in memory of the six million people who di SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Holocasut, he invites everyone to send in their good deed on SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>card, together with a paper clip, which will be used to creat SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>that is expected to reach 140 miles long. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>"The chain will help in some small way, He says, to teach us SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>appreciate the enormity of six million victims and place grea SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>on what we can accomplish, when so many people of good faith SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>good deeds together." Mail to: The Good Deed Link c/o Rabbi P SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Willis Avenue, Mineola, NY SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>FYI this organization is affiliated with Lubavich. SF>VI>SF>VI>Ok. So??? SF>VI>SF>The family that runs this organization has a history of inditements an SF>VI>SF>convictions for misuse of federal funds but justfying their actions by SF>VI>SF>saying they were not stealing for themselves but for the Rebbe. SF>VI>What has this have to do with the Good Deed Link? Just because the SF>VI>family that is running the organization may be bad doesn't mean the SF>VI>idea is not a good idea. SF>VI> SF>VI>One of the things that I like about being a Liberal Jew is that I can SF>VI>take what I like from Orthodox Judaism and disregard the rest. :) SF>I remain suspecious of seemingly good deeds being organized by SF>unrepentent felons. I don't see any direct connection between the felony and the good deed. Date: Friday, August 22, 1997 1:36pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 740500 To: Kkid Re: The good deed link (Reply to #740467, Reply to #740433, Reply to #740425, R*) KK>SF>KK>SF>VI>SF>VI>good deeds together." Mail to: The Good Deed Link c/o Rabb KK>SF>KK>SF>VI>SF>VI>Willis Avenue, Mineola, NY KK>SF>KK>SF>VI>SF>FYI this organization is affiliated with Lubavich. KK>SF>KK>SF>VI>Ok. So??? KK>SF>KK>SF>The family that runs this organization has a history of inditements KK>SF>KK>SF>convictions for misuse of federal funds but justfying their actions KK>SF>KK>SF>saying they were not stealing for themselves but for the Rebbe. KK>SF>KK>You're so pathetic, sometimes. KK>SF>KK>Your comment was that the organization is affiliated with Lubavich KK>SF>KK>(sic). Are you now saying that Lubavich has a history of indictments a KK>SF>KK>convictions for misuse of federal funds??? If not, then answer Vida's KK>SF>KK>question. Who cares if they are affiliated with Lubavich? If you wante KK>SF>KK>to make the statement you are now making then you simply should have KK>SF>KK>stated that the Good Deed Link is a shady operation. Although I would KK>SF>KK>not believe you anyway. KK>SF>The organization sponsoring this link is presently run by Rabbi Shea KK>SF>Hecht and was previously run by his father, both of whom along with a KK>SF>brother were indited on charges and convicted of misuse of federal job KK>SF>training funds and yet justified their illegal actions on religious KK>SF>grounds, making at least myself highly suspect of the rest of their KK>SF>activities. KK>SF>My feelings extend to the Lubavich organization by their maintaing the KK>SF>Hechts in positions of influence. KK>Your comment was that they are affiliated with Lubavitch. When Vida KK>said so what, then you expounded. There are organizations galore, too KK>numerous to count that are affiliated with Lubavitch. You are definitely KK>wrong to generalize in the manner you are generalizing. Rabbi Shea Hecht, however, both runs his organization and is a major leader in Lubavich as seen in his appointment by Guilliani to the police committee. Date: Friday, August 22, 1997 1:37pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 740501 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #740479, Reply to #740453, Reply to #740451, R*) (1 reply) VI>(Previous exchanges ommittted) VI>SF>VI>As it stands now, I can understand some whole lines in a few of the VI>SF>VI>prayers. But mostly it is a word here and a word there. It would VI>SF>VI>really be nice to be able to pick up the siddur and understand ALL the VI>SF>VI>prayers! VI>SF>ALL may not happen that quickly. VI>I don't expect it to happen quickly. But I do hope it will happen! Just keep your goal clear and reachable. Date: Friday, August 22, 1997 1:39pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 740502 To: Vida Re: The good deed link (Reply to #740480, Reply to #740454, Reply to #740452, R*) (2 replies) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>This is from an article which appearaed in "The Manhattan VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Sentinel" of August 15-21, 1997. I have no way of verifyi VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>project, but I thought that it was an excellent idea: VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>"Let us do something positive together," says Rabbi Anchel VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>director of the National Committee for the Furtherance of VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Education of Nassau County, New York. Searching for peopl VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>million good deeds in memory of the six million people who VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Holocasut, he invites everyone to send in their good deed VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>card, together with a paper clip, which will be used to cr VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>that is expected to reach 140 miles long. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>"The chain will help in some small way, He says, to teach VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>appreciate the enormity of six million victims and place g VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>on what we can accomplish, when so many people of good fai VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>good deeds together." Mail to: The Good Deed Link c/o Rabb VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Willis Avenue, Mineola, NY VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>FYI this organization is affiliated with Lubavich. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Ok. So??? VI>SF>VI>SF>The family that runs this organization has a history of inditements VI>SF>VI>SF>convictions for misuse of federal funds but justfying their actions VI>SF>VI>SF>saying they were not stealing for themselves but for the Rebbe. VI>SF>VI>What has this have to do with the Good Deed Link? Just because the VI>SF>VI>family that is running the organization may be bad doesn't mean the VI>SF>VI>idea is not a good idea. VI>SF>VI> VI>SF>VI>One of the things that I like about being a Liberal Jew is that I can VI>SF>VI>take what I like from Orthodox Judaism and disregard the rest. :) VI>SF>I remain suspecious of seemingly good deeds being organized by VI>SF>unrepentent felons. VI>I don't see any direct connection between the felony and the good deed. I see the "good deed" being tainted and diminished by its connection to felony. Date: Friday, August 22, 1997 7:57pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 740523 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #740501, Reply to #740479, Reply to #740453, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>(Previous exchanges ommittted) SF>VI>SF>VI>As it stands now, I can understand some whole lines in a few of the SF>VI>SF>VI>prayers. But mostly it is a word here and a word there. It would SF>VI>SF>VI>really be nice to be able to pick up the siddur and understand ALL SF>VI>SF>VI>prayers! SF>VI>SF>ALL may not happen that quickly. SF>VI>I don't expect it to happen quickly. But I do hope it will happen! SF>Just keep your goal clear and reachable. Hey, it is! Reb Marcia said in her class at Elat Chayyim that you really only need a vocubulary of 200 words to read most of the prayers in the siddur. That doesn't seem too much of a reach to me. :) (She was saying this in a pitch to get the class members to study and learn Hebrew.) Date: Friday, August 22, 1997 7:58pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 740524 To: Steve Flur Re: The good deed link (Reply to #740502, Reply to #740480, Reply to #740454, R*) (2 replies) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>This is from an article which appearaed in "The Manhatt SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Sentinel" of August 15-21, 1997. I have no way of veri SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>project, but I thought that it was an excellent idea: SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>"Let us do something positive together," says Rabbi Anc SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>director of the National Committee for the Furtherance SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Education of Nassau County, New York. Searching for pe SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>million good deeds in memory of the six million people SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Holocasut, he invites everyone to send in their good de SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>card, together with a paper clip, which will be used to SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>that is expected to reach 140 miles long. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>"The chain will help in some small way, He says, to tea SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>appreciate the enormity of six million victims and plac SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>on what we can accomplish, when so many people of good SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>good deeds together." Mail to: The Good Deed Link c/o R SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Willis Avenue, Mineola, NY SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>FYI this organization is affiliated with Lubavich. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Ok. So??? SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>The family that runs this organization has a history of inditeme SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>convictions for misuse of federal funds but justfying their acti SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>saying they were not stealing for themselves but for the Rebbe. SF>VI>SF>VI>What has this have to do with the Good Deed Link? Just because the SF>VI>SF>VI>family that is running the organization may be bad doesn't mean the SF>VI>SF>VI>idea is not a good idea. SF>VI>SF>VI> SF>VI>SF>VI>One of the things that I like about being a Liberal Jew is that I c SF>VI>SF>VI>take what I like from Orthodox Judaism and disregard the rest. :) SF>VI>SF>I remain suspecious of seemingly good deeds being organized by SF>VI>SF>unrepentent felons. SF>VI>I don't see any direct connection between the felony and the good deed. SF>I see the "good deed" being tainted and diminished by its connection to SF>felony. But is the Rabbi who is organizing this event himself implicated in any of the felonies? Has he personally committed any crimes? Date: Saturday, August 23, 1997 10:40am Forum: Theology From: Rand Msg#: 740532 To: Steve Flur Re: The good deed link (Reply to #740502, Reply to #740480, Reply to #740454, R*) (1 reply) In a message dated 08-22-97 Steve Flur wrote to Vida : VI>I don't see any direct connection between the felony and the good deed. SF> I see the "good deed" being tainted and diminished by its connection to SF> felony. Assuming I can find something that Clinton does that I agree with, should I pooh-pooh the action because IMHO he's a felon? TANSTAAFL, Rand --- * TIMM 1.3 * I'm Pro-Choice on Everything! Date: Monday, August 25, 1997 2:33pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 740568 To: Vida Re: The good deed link (Reply to #740524, Reply to #740502, Reply to #740480, R*) (2 replies) VI>But is the Rabbi who is organizing this event himself implicated in any VI>of the felonies? Has he personally committed any crimes? Vida, I have to post this message. I have heard many good things and many bad things about Lubavitch. I have not heard even a hint of anything that Steve mentioned tying Lubavitch to any criminal activity. Date: Tuesday, August 26, 1997 4:54am Forum: Theology From: Dti Msg#: 740576 To: Sam Beckett Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #739904, Reply to #739648, Reply to #739492, R*) SB>Thats good. Here's an interesting question I came across in a book by SB>Steven Hawking. Did time exist before the universe was created by God? SB>Personally, I would think it didnt, as God has no need of time in the SB>conventional sense. What do you think? If your god has no need of time, then you know the answer to your own question, do you not? Besides: as you posited this one thusly: Did time exist before the universe was created by God? ...and "universe" in the generally understood meaning refers to everything imaginable and unimaginable... then your god does not even need to have no need of time in the conventional sense to have no requirement for the existence of any concept or thing prior to the sudden generation of all things imaginable and unimaginable by its own will, right? Why ask? I already know the answer... -|--- --- * SLMR 2.0 * Cshy mnopoey? Dlmnwyt pysaklcko qizmplrinjrtgny! Date: Tuesday, August 26, 1997 8:36am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 740584 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #740523, Reply to #740501, Reply to #740479, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>(Previous exchanges ommittted) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>As it stands now, I can understand some whole lines in a few of VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayers. But mostly it is a word here and a word there. It wou VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>really be nice to be able to pick up the siddur and understand A VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayers! VI>SF>VI>SF>ALL may not happen that quickly. VI>SF>VI>I don't expect it to happen quickly. But I do hope it will happen! VI>SF>Just keep your goal clear and reachable. VI>Hey, it is! VI>Reb Marcia said in her class at Elat Chayyim that you really only need VI>a vocubulary of 200 words to read most of the prayers in the siddur. VI>That doesn't seem too much of a reach to me. :) (She was saying this VI>in a pitch to get the class members to study and learn Hebrew.) Her theory should cover most of the basic prayers. Date: Tuesday, August 26, 1997 8:37am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 740585 To: Vida Re: The good deed link (Reply to #740524, Reply to #740502, Reply to #740480, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>This is from an article which appearaed in "The Manh VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Sentinel" of August 15-21, 1997. I have no way of v VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>project, but I thought that it was an excellent idea VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>"Let us do something positive together," says Rabbi VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>director of the National Committee for the Furtheran VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Education of Nassau County, New York. Searching for VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>million good deeds in memory of the six million peop VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Holocasut, he invites everyone to send in their good VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>card, together with a paper clip, which will be used VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>that is expected to reach 140 miles long. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>"The chain will help in some small way, He says, to VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>appreciate the enormity of six million victims and p VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>on what we can accomplish, when so many people of go VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>good deeds together." Mail to: The Good Deed Link c/ VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Willis Avenue, Mineola, NY VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>FYI this organization is affiliated with Lubavich. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Ok. So??? VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>The family that runs this organization has a history of indit VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>convictions for misuse of federal funds but justfying their a VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>saying they were not stealing for themselves but for the Rebb VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>What has this have to do with the Good Deed Link? Just because VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>family that is running the organization may be bad doesn't mean VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>idea is not a good idea. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI> VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>One of the things that I like about being a Liberal Jew is that VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>take what I like from Orthodox Judaism and disregard the rest. VI>SF>VI>SF>I remain suspecious of seemingly good deeds being organized by VI>SF>VI>SF>unrepentent felons. VI>SF>VI>I don't see any direct connection between the felony and the good deed VI>SF>I see the "good deed" being tainted and diminished by its connection to VI>SF>felony. VI>But is the Rabbi who is organizing this event himself implicated in any VI>of the felonies? Has he personally committed any crimes? I don't know that person, only the people he worls for and answers to. Date: Tuesday, August 26, 1997 8:39am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 740586 To: Rand Re: The good deed link (Reply to #740532, Reply to #740502, Reply to #740480, R*) (1 reply) RA>In a message dated 08-22-97 Steve Flur wrote to Vida : RA>VI>I don't see any direct connection between the felony and the good deed. RA>SF> I see the "good deed" being tainted and diminished by its connection to RA>SF> felony. RA>Assuming I can find something that Clinton does that I agree with, should I RA>pooh-pooh the action because IMHO he's a felon? RA>TANSTAAFL, RA>Rand RA>--- RA> * TIMM 1.3 * I'm Pro-Choice on Everything! I don't see the comparison for two reasons. First, he is not a religious leader asking you to perform a religious act, and second, when did he become a convicted felon? Date: Tuesday, August 26, 1997 8:43am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 740587 To: Kkid Re: The good deed link (Reply to #740568, Reply to #740524, Reply to #740502, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>But is the Rabbi who is organizing this event himself implicated in any KK>VI>of the felonies? Has he personally committed any crimes? KK>Vida, I have to post this message. I have heard many good things and KK>many bad things about Lubavitch. I have not heard even a hint of KK>anything that Steve mentioned tying Lubavitch to any criminal activity. Go back to the 70's when JJ Hecht was indited for and convicted of misusing federal SETA funds, originally targeted for job training but Hecht gave the funds to Kollel students and justified it by saying he did not steal the funds for himself but rather for the Rebbe. Date: Tuesday, August 26, 1997 6:07pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 740598 To: Steve Flur Re: The good deed link (Reply to #740587, Reply to #740568, Reply to #740524, R*) (1 reply) SF>KK>VI>But is the Rabbi who is organizing this event himself implicated in an SF>KK>VI>of the felonies? Has he personally committed any crimes? SF>KK>Vida, I have to post this message. I have heard many good things and SF>KK>many bad things about Lubavitch. I have not heard even a hint of SF>KK>anything that Steve mentioned tying Lubavitch to any criminal activity. SF>Go back to the 70's when JJ Hecht was indited for and convicted of SF>misusing federal SETA funds, originally targeted for job training but SF>Hecht gave the funds to Kollel students and justified it by saying he SF>did not steal the funds for himself but rather for the Rebbe. I was alive in the 70's and do not recall anything of what you are saying. He was convicted and locked up? Fined? What? How come he is still around? You are 100% wrong even if what you say did happen. It is the equivalent of my saying once guilty then always guilty. Date: Wednesday, August 27, 1997 12:45am Forum: Theology From: Rand Msg#: 740613 To: Steve Flur Re: The good deed link (Reply to #740586, Reply to #740532, Reply to #740502, R*) (1 reply) In a message dated 08-26-97 Steve Flur wrote to Rand : RA>VI>I don't see any direct connection between the felony and the good deed. RA>SF> I see the "good deed" being tainted and diminished by its connection to RA>SF> felony. RA>Assuming I can find something that Clinton does that I agree with, should I RA>! RA>pooh-pooh the action because IMHO he's a felon? RA>TANSTAAFL, RA>Rand SF> I don't see the comparison for two reasons. First, he is not a religious SF> leader asking you to perform a religious act, and second, when did he SF> become a convicted felon? SF> All you've said is that some Lubavitchers are indicted. None convicted yet. And since I _know_ Clinton is actually guilty, I've got far more reason to rip on Clinton than on some indicted Lubavitcher about whom I know nothing. Secondly, you haven't said that the indicted "leader" is asking me to perform the act. Even if he did, do I say that everything a convicted felon does is bad? Ivan Boesky was a major philanthropist. That's a good thing, even if he was an insider trader. TANSTAAFL, Rand --- * TIMM 1.3 * I'm Pro-Choice on Everything! Date: Wednesday, August 27, 1997 2:33pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 740627 To: Kkid Re: The good deed link (Reply to #740598, Reply to #740587, Reply to #740568, R*) (1 reply) KK>SF>KK>VI>But is the Rabbi who is organizing this event himself implicated in KK>SF>KK>VI>of the felonies? Has he personally committed any crimes? KK>SF>KK>Vida, I have to post this message. I have heard many good things and KK>SF>KK>many bad things about Lubavitch. I have not heard even a hint of KK>SF>KK>anything that Steve mentioned tying Lubavitch to any criminal activity KK>SF>Go back to the 70's when JJ Hecht was indited for and convicted of KK>SF>misusing federal SETA funds, originally targeted for job training but KK>SF>Hecht gave the funds to Kollel students and justified it by saying he KK>SF>did not steal the funds for himself but rather for the Rebbe. KK>I was alive in the 70's and do not recall anything of what you are KK>saying. He was convicted and locked up? Fined? What? How come he is KK>still around? You are 100% wrong even if what you say did happen. It is KK>the equivalent of my saying once guilty then always guilty. The father JJ Hecht died several years ago and his son Shea presently runs the organization. Date: Wednesday, August 27, 1997 2:36pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 740628 To: Rand Re: The good deed link (Reply to #740613, Reply to #740586, Reply to #740532, R*) (1 reply) RA>In a message dated 08-26-97 Steve Flur wrote to Rand : RA>RA>VI>I don't see any direct connection between the felony and the good deed RA>RA>SF> I see the "good deed" being tainted and diminished by its connection RA>RA>SF> felony. RA>RA>Assuming I can find something that Clinton does that I agree with, should RA> RA>! RA>RA>pooh-pooh the action because IMHO he's a felon? RA>RA>TANSTAAFL, RA>RA>Rand RA>SF> I don't see the comparison for two reasons. First, he is not a religious RA>SF> leader asking you to perform a religious act, and second, when did he RA>SF> become a convicted felon? RA>SF> RA>All you've said is that some Lubavitchers are indicted. None convicted yet. RA>And since I _know_ Clinton is actually guilty, I've got far more reason to r RA>on Clinton than on some indicted Lubavitcher about whom I know nothing. RA>Secondly, you haven't said that the indicted "leader" is asking me to perfor RA>the act. Even if he did, do I say that everything a convicted felon does is RA>bad? Ivan Boesky was a major philanthropist. That's a good thing, even if RA>was an insider trader. RA>TANSTAAFL, RA>Rand RA>--- RA> * TIMM 1.3 * I'm Pro-Choice on Everything! Firstly, the Hechts were indicted and convicted in the 70's but never lost their positions of power. Second, I forgot you know more than Kenneth Starr who appears to be unable to indict or convict. Date: Wednesday, August 27, 1997 3:34pm Forum: Theology From: Rand Msg#: 740634 To: Steve Flur Re: The good deed link (Reply to #740628, Reply to #740613, Reply to #740586, R*) (1 reply) In a message dated 08-27-97 Steve Flur wrote to Rand : RA>SF> I don't see the comparison for two reasons. First, he is not a RA>«Rreligious RA>SF> leader asking you to perform a religious act, and second, when did he RA>SF> become a convicted felon? RA>SF> RA>All you've said is that some Lubavitchers are indicted. None convicted RA>yet. RA>And since I _know_ Clinton is actually guilty, I've got far more reason to RA>on Clinton than on some indicted Lubavitcher about whom I know nothing. RA>Secondly, you haven't said that the indicted "leader" is asking me to RA>perform RA>the act. Even if he did, do I say that everything a convicted felon does RA>is RA>bad? Ivan Boesky was a major philanthropist. That's a good thing, even if RA>was an insider trader. RA>TANSTAAFL, RA>Rand RA>--- RA> * TIMM 1.3 * I'm Pro-Choice on Everything! SF> Firstly, the Hechts were indicted and convicted in the 70's but never SF> lost their positions of power. Second, I forgot you know more than SF> Kenneth Starr who appears to be unable to indict or convict. According to your last message, the father was indicted, not the son. Different person. Secondly, an indictment and a conviction requires admissible evidence. Starr knows he's guilty too. Some of the crimes are barred by the Statute of Limitations from indictment, and for the others, most of the evidence is not admissible due to the technical rules of evidence. And if I were Starr, I wouldn't indict either based on what I know. I know a lot about Whitewater, too. I'm not basing my conclusion on the press reports, but on the actual evidence which I worked with. Which is irrelevant to the whole point. The point was that even if they were indicted and convicted felons, the good deed would still be a good deed. TANSTAAFL, Rand --- * TIMM 1.3 * I'm Pro-Choice on Everything! Date: Wednesday, August 27, 1997 4:13pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 740636 To: Steve Flur Re: The good deed link (Reply to #740627, Reply to #740598, Reply to #740587, R*) (1 reply) SF>KK>I was alive in the 70's and do not recall anything of what you are SF>KK>saying. He was convicted and locked up? Fined? What? How come he is SF>KK>still around? You are 100% wrong even if what you say did happen. It is SF>KK>the equivalent of my saying once guilty then always guilty. SF>The father JJ Hecht died several years ago and his son Shea presently SF>runs the organization. Yeah, it's great to generalize as long as you are not the one being generalized against. Right? I guess the whole Lubavitch movement are composed of guilty felons. Date: Thursday, August 28, 1997 11:36am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 740654 To: Rand Re: The good deed link (Reply to #740634, Reply to #740628, Reply to #740613, R*) (1 reply) RA>In a message dated 08-27-97 Steve Flur wrote to Rand : RA>RA>SF> I don't see the comparison for two reasons. First, he is not a RA> RA>«Rreligious RA>RA>SF> leader asking you to perform a religious act, and second, when did he RA>RA>SF> become a convicted felon? RA>RA>SF> RA>RA>All you've said is that some Lubavitchers are indicted. None convicted RA> RA>yet. RA>RA>And since I _know_ Clinton is actually guilty, I've got far more reason t RA>RA>on Clinton than on some indicted Lubavitcher about whom I know nothing. RA>RA>Secondly, you haven't said that the indicted "leader" is asking me to RA> RA>perform RA>RA>the act. Even if he did, do I say that everything a convicted felon does RA> RA>is RA>RA>bad? Ivan Boesky was a major philanthropist. That's a good thing, even RA>RA>was an insider trader. RA>RA>TANSTAAFL, RA>RA>Rand RA>RA>--- RA>RA> * TIMM 1.3 * I'm Pro-Choice on Everything! RA>SF> Firstly, the Hechts were indicted and convicted in the 70's but never RA>SF> lost their positions of power. Second, I forgot you know more than RA>SF> Kenneth Starr who appears to be unable to indict or convict. RA>According to your last message, the father was indicted, not the son. RA>Different person. Secondly, an indictment and a conviction requires RA>admissible evidence. Starr knows he's guilty too. Some of the crimes are RA>barred by the Statute of Limitations from indictment, and for the others, mo RA>of the evidence is not admissible due to the technical rules of evidence. A RA>if I were Starr, I wouldn't indict either based on what I know. RA>I know a lot about Whitewater, too. I'm not basing my conclusion on the pre RA>reports, but on the actual evidence which I worked with. RA>Which is irrelevant to the whole point. The point was that even if they wer RA>indicted and convicted felons, the good deed would still be a good deed. RA>TANSTAAFL, Rand RA>--- RA> * TIMM 1.3 * I'm Pro-Choice on Everything! You would still consider a good deed good even when done by or inspired by the not so good? If the "evidence" of a crime is inadmissable, is it still a crime? Date: Thursday, August 28, 1997 11:37am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 740655 To: Kkid Re: The good deed link (Reply to #740636, Reply to #740627, Reply to #740598, R*) KK>SF>KK>I was alive in the 70's and do not recall anything of what you are KK>SF>KK>saying. He was convicted and locked up? Fined? What? How come he is KK>SF>KK>still around? You are 100% wrong even if what you say did happen. It i KK>SF>KK>the equivalent of my saying once guilty then always guilty. KK>SF>The father JJ Hecht died several years ago and his son Shea presently KK>SF>runs the organization. KK>Yeah, it's great to generalize as long as you are not the one being KK>generalized against. Right? I guess the whole Lubavitch movement are KK>composed of guilty felons. My points have been directed at this specific organization within Lubavich which is run as the personal fiefdom of the Hechts. Date: Friday, August 29, 1997 3:00pm Forum: Theology From: Rand Msg#: 740669 To: Steve Flur Re: The good deed link (Reply to #740654, Reply to #740634, Reply to #740628, R*) (1 reply) In a message dated 08-28-97 Steve Flur wrote to Rand : RA>According to your last message, the father was indicted, not the son. RA>Different person. Secondly, an indictment and a conviction requires RA>admissible evidence. Starr knows he's guilty too. Some of the crimes are RA>barred by the Statute of Limitations from indictment, and for the others, RA>mo RA>of the evidence is not admissible due to the technical rules of evidence. RA>A RA>if I were Starr, I wouldn't indict either based on what I know. RA>I know a lot about Whitewater, too. I'm not basing my conclusion on the RA>pre RA>reports, but on the actual evidence which I worked with. RA>Which is irrelevant to the whole point. The point was that even if they RA>wer RA>indicted and convicted felons, the good deed would still be a good deed. RA>TANSTAAFL, Rand RA>--- RA> * TIMM 1.3 * I'm Pro-Choice on Everything! SF> You would still consider a good deed good even when done by or inspired SF> by the not so good? Sure! Meyer Lansky gave a fortune to the State of Israel. My grandfather ran guns to Israel. Meyer Lansky was a murderer who did a good deed through his philanthropy. Doesn't diminish the good deed. My grandfather was a good man who broke the law to do what in my opinion was a good deed. SF> If the "evidence" of a crime is inadmissable, is it still a crime? Yep. Just means the state can't find him guilty. OJ's guilty in fact, whether or not he's guilty in law. I'm telling you Clinton's guilty. Now, I can't tell you the evidence that I'm aware of that tells me that, because I signed a major league confidentiality agreement. If I were you, I wouldn't take me at face value, and I would probably say, "he doesn't like Clinton, he's just spouting." I know I'm not. I know he's guilty, but I can't prove it to you. But whether he is or not is irrelevant to the point of the thread, which is that a good deed done by a bad person is still a good deed. TANSTAAFL, Rand --- * TIMM 1.3 * I'm Pro-Choice on Everything! Date: Saturday, August 30, 1997 7:15am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 740687 To: Kkid Re: The good deed link (Reply to #740568, Reply to #740524, Reply to #740502, R*) KK>VI>But is the Rabbi who is organizing this event himself implicated in any KK>VI>of the felonies? Has he personally committed any crimes? KK>Vida, I have to post this message. I have heard many good things and KK>many bad things about Lubavitch. I have not heard even a hint of KK>anything that Steve mentioned tying Lubavitch to any criminal activity. I don't know. Maybe Steve will give us more details. Date: Saturday, August 30, 1997 7:25am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 740688 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #740584, Reply to #740523, Reply to #740501, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>(Previous exchanges ommittted) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>As it stands now, I can understand some whole lines in a few SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayers. But mostly it is a word here and a word there. It SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>really be nice to be able to pick up the siddur and understan SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayers! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>ALL may not happen that quickly. SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't expect it to happen quickly. But I do hope it will happen! SF>VI>SF>Just keep your goal clear and reachable. SF>VI>Hey, it is! SF>VI>Reb Marcia said in her class at Elat Chayyim that you really only need SF>VI>a vocubulary of 200 words to read most of the prayers in the siddur. SF>VI>That doesn't seem too much of a reach to me. :) (She was saying this SF>VI>in a pitch to get the class members to study and learn Hebrew.) SF>Her theory should cover most of the basic prayers. Probably what she meant. I got a mailing from Brooklyn Heights Synagogue announcing their adult education schedule. They are offering a Hebrew one (alpha beth) and Hebrew three (reading comphresion) class in the fall, but no Hebrew two. They will be giving Hebrew two in the fall. :( Aditionally, the teacher is different! So the teacher I liked is no longer teaching the class! :( :( My Hebrew is not strong enough for me to take the Hebrew three class. And I know the alpha beth and vowels well enough that the Hebrew one class would be repeative for me. In terms of aquiring Hebrew language skills I am thinking of possibly ordering the Dor d'dor software. Have you heard anything about these programs? Do you know if they are any good? I have seen their web page. They have two programs which I am considering ordering--one called "Bracha builder" and the other called "Siddur surfer". I think if I remember correctly both programs have a 150 word vocubulary each. :) Date: Saturday, August 30, 1997 7:29am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 740689 To: Steve Flur Re: The good deed link (Reply to #740585, Reply to #740524, Reply to #740502, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>This is from an article which appearaed in "The M SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Sentinel" of August 15-21, 1997. I have no way o SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>project, but I thought that it was an excellent i SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>"Let us do something positive together," says Rab SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>director of the National Committee for the Furthe SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Education of Nassau County, New York. Searching SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>million good deeds in memory of the six million p SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Holocasut, he invites everyone to send in their g SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>card, together with a paper clip, which will be u SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>that is expected to reach 140 miles long. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>"The chain will help in some small way, He says, SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>appreciate the enormity of six million victims an SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>on what we can accomplish, when so many people of SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>good deeds together." Mail to: The Good Deed Link SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Willis Avenue, Mineola, NY SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>FYI this organization is affiliated with Lubavich. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Ok. So??? SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>The family that runs this organization has a history of in SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>convictions for misuse of federal funds but justfying thei SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>saying they were not stealing for themselves but for the R SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>What has this have to do with the Good Deed Link? Just becau SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>family that is running the organization may be bad doesn't me SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>idea is not a good idea. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI> SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>One of the things that I like about being a Liberal Jew is th SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>take what I like from Orthodox Judaism and disregard the rest SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I remain suspecious of seemingly good deeds being organized by SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>unrepentent felons. SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't see any direct connection between the felony and the good d SF>VI>SF>I see the "good deed" being tainted and diminished by its connection t SF>VI>SF>felony. SF>VI>But is the Rabbi who is organizing this event himself implicated in any SF>VI>of the felonies? Has he personally committed any crimes? SF>I don't know that person, only the people he worls for and answers to. If he isn't personally implicated then why does it cause you a problem? Is that he is associated with the Lubavichter Hasidim that gives you the problem? Would you have a problem if he worked for a gay group that was in some way under a cloud? Date: Monday, September 1, 1997 8:31am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 740733 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Jewish Life on Mars (1 reply) This was forwarded to one of my Jewish e mail lists. It made me :), and I hope it does the same for you. :) >>In a stunning development, we have learned that there is life on Mars >> -- but not the kind that had been anticipated. >> >>The first indication, based on the current U.S. space mission, came >>when the small roving vehicle called Sojourner spotted a sign on the >>rocky terrain of Red Planet that read, "Welcome To Chabad House -- >>Bring Moshiach Now." The sign, in English, thrilled and confused NASA >>scientists back in Houston, who had no idea what it meant. Only after >>thorough research did they learn that it revealed the presence of a >>dedicated and particularly hearty group of Lubavitch chasidim, known >>for their tireless efforts to reach Jews in the most remote regions, >>urging them to perform mitzvot. >> >>"We've been here for some time now doing our work," said a cheerful >>Rabbi Lou Steinwalker, captain of the spaceship "Enterprise 770", >>in an exclusive phone interview. When asked how long he had been on >> Mars and how he got there, he said only, "where there's a will, >>there's a way." >>He then excused himself, explaining that it was time for prayer and he >>was looking for a minyan. In a subsequent phone call, the Rabbi noted >>that in recent days another synagogue has been formed on Mars -- a >>reform congregation that he would not set foot in. >> >>Following up on that information, we contacted Rabbi Uri Negev, a >>Reform leader in Israel, who said that when he had met secretly with >>the chief rabbis of Israel in Jerusalem recently, they told him that if >>Reform Jews wanted to pray in peace, they should go to Mars. "So we >>did," said Rabbi Negev, "and no one has bothered us, except the local >>Conservative congregation that keeps trying to borrow our membership >>list." >> >>A Conservative congregation on Mars? Yes, it is true, acknowledged a >>leader of the Jewish Theological Seminary. "We discovered that >>blending Jewish law and modernity just doesn't work on earth, and we're >>always looking for new venues," explained Rabbi Ismore Sources. The >>rabbi complained bitterly of financial competition from the United >>Jewish Appeal-Interplanetary Division, which has been scouring Mars via >>satellite in search of potential donors. >> >>Stephen Solomon, the chief executive of the charity acknowledged that >>highly motivated fund-raisers have been active throughout the galaxy >>for several light years. "We've determined through a Strategic Planet >>Plan that our most compelling marketing strategy is rescue," he said. >>"The trouble is we haven't found anyone out there to save!" >> >>That's been a problem, as well, for Abraham Loxsmith of the >>Anti-Defamation League. "We are prepared to open a major branch on >>Mars, and we've already ordered the press releases and fax papers. >>But, so far, no one has defamed us." Loxsmith is considering whether >>the lack of defamation may be due to a form of active, even hostile, >>disinterest in Jews that qualifies as anti-Semitism. >> >>All this sudden interest among Jews about Mars has motivated Malcolm >>Phoneline to form a new umbrella group, the Conference of Presidents of >>Major Martian Jewish Organizations (CPMMJO). He said the group has >>already received several calls from anonymous rabbis inquiring as to >>whether there were any Pell grants available on Mars. >> >>Meanwhile, a number of kosher-for-Passover tours have scouted out the >>Red Planet as a unique alternative to places like Palm Springs and >>Hawaii for Jaded holiday vacationers. One tour operator noted that >>Rabbi Orson Vells has already been hired to conduct and broadcast the >>communal seders, to be called "The War Of The Words," and that space >>stations are under construction to transport large supplies of oxygen, >>horseradish and shmura matzah for the eight-day festival. "It will be >>out of this world," the travel expert said, "and, I assure you, very >>tastefully done." >> >>Tourism might be effected adversely, though, by a late report that >>Palestinian authorities are claiming entitlement to 92 percent of >>Mars, asserting that Arab ties to the planet can be traced back to >>the Koran. >> >> > > > ************************************************************************ Date: Monday, September 1, 1997 10:01am Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 740739 To: Vida Re: Jewish Life on Mars (Reply to #740733) (1 reply) GREAT! Date: Tuesday, September 2, 1997 7:22am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 740799 To: Kkid Re: Jewish Life on Mars (Reply to #740739, Reply to #740733) KK>GREAT! Glad you enjoyed it. :) Date: Tuesday, September 2, 1997 2:08pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 740827 To: Rand Re: The good deed link (Reply to #740669, Reply to #740654, Reply to #740634, R*) RA>In a message dated 08-28-97 Steve Flur wrote to Rand : RA>RA>According to your last message, the father was indicted, not the son. RA>RA>Different person. Secondly, an indictment and a conviction requires RA>RA>admissible evidence. Starr knows he's guilty too. Some of the crimes ar RA>RA>barred by the Statute of Limitations from indictment, and for the others, RA> RA>mo RA>RA>of the evidence is not admissible due to the technical rules of evidence. RA> RA>A RA>RA>if I were Starr, I wouldn't indict either based on what I know. RA>RA>I know a lot about Whitewater, too. I'm not basing my conclusion on the RA> RA>pre RA>RA>reports, but on the actual evidence which I worked with. RA>RA>Which is irrelevant to the whole point. The point was that even if they RA> RA>wer RA>RA>indicted and convicted felons, the good deed would still be a good deed. RA>RA>TANSTAAFL, Rand RA>RA>--- RA>RA> * TIMM 1.3 * I'm Pro-Choice on Everything! RA>SF> You would still consider a good deed good even when done by or inspired RA>SF> by the not so good? RA>Sure! Meyer Lansky gave a fortune to the State of Israel. My grandfather r RA>guns to Israel. Meyer Lansky was a murderer who did a good deed through his RA>philanthropy. Doesn't diminish the good deed. My grandfather was a good ma RA>who broke the law to do what in my opinion was a good deed. RA>SF> If the "evidence" of a crime is inadmissable, is it still a crime? RA>Yep. Just means the state can't find him guilty. OJ's guilty in fact, RA>whether or not he's guilty in law. I'm telling you Clinton's guilty. Now, RA>can't tell you the evidence that I'm aware of that tells me that, because I RA>signed a major league confidentiality agreement. If I were you, I wouldn't RA>take me at face value, and I would probably say, "he doesn't like Clinton, RA>he's just spouting." I know I'm not. I know he's guilty, but I can't prove RA>it to you. But whether he is or not is irrelevant to the point of the threa RA>which is that a good deed done by a bad person is still a good deed. RA>TANSTAAFL, RA>Rand RA>--- RA> * TIMM 1.3 * I'm Pro-Choice on Everything! I believe the difference lies in the fact that persons indicted and convicted of the felony, the Hechts, were acting as rabbis, leaders of a religious community, and used religion to justify their actions. Date: Tuesday, September 2, 1997 2:10pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 740828 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #740688, Reply to #740584, Reply to #740523, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>(Previous exchanges ommittted) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>As it stands now, I can understand some whole lines in a f VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayers. But mostly it is a word here and a word there. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>really be nice to be able to pick up the siddur and unders VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayers! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>ALL may not happen that quickly. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't expect it to happen quickly. But I do hope it will happ VI>SF>VI>SF>Just keep your goal clear and reachable. VI>SF>VI>Hey, it is! VI>SF>VI>Reb Marcia said in her class at Elat Chayyim that you really only need VI>SF>VI>a vocubulary of 200 words to read most of the prayers in the siddur. VI>SF>VI>That doesn't seem too much of a reach to me. :) (She was saying this VI>SF>VI>in a pitch to get the class members to study and learn Hebrew.) VI>SF>Her theory should cover most of the basic prayers. VI>Probably what she meant. VI>I got a mailing from Brooklyn Heights Synagogue announcing their adult VI>education schedule. They are offering a Hebrew one (alpha beth) and VI>Hebrew three (reading comphresion) class in the fall, but no Hebrew VI>two. They will be giving Hebrew two in the fall. :( VI>Aditionally, the teacher is different! So the teacher I liked is no VI>longer teaching the class! :( :( VI>My Hebrew is not strong enough for me to take the Hebrew three class. VI>And I know the alpha beth and vowels well enough that the Hebrew one VI>class would be repeative for me. VI>In terms of aquiring Hebrew language skills I am thinking of possibly VI>ordering the Dor d'dor software. Have you heard anything about these VI>programs? Do you know if they are any good? I have seen their web VI>page. They have two programs which I am considering ordering--one VI>called "Bracha builder" and the other called "Siddur surfer". I think VI>if I remember correctly both programs have a 150 word vocubulary each. VI>:) I have seen the ads but have no direct or indirect experience with either. Date: Tuesday, September 2, 1997 2:13pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 740829 To: Vida Re: The good deed link (Reply to #740689, Reply to #740585, Reply to #740524, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>This is from an article which appearaed in "Th VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Sentinel" of August 15-21, 1997. I have no wa VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>project, but I thought that it was an excellen VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>"Let us do something positive together," says VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>director of the National Committee for the Fur VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Education of Nassau County, New York. Searchi VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>million good deeds in memory of the six millio VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Holocasut, he invites everyone to send in thei VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>card, together with a paper clip, which will b VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>that is expected to reach 140 miles long. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>"The chain will help in some small way, He say VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>appreciate the enormity of six million victims VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>on what we can accomplish, when so many people VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>good deeds together." Mail to: The Good Deed L VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Willis Avenue, Mineola, NY VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>FYI this organization is affiliated with Lubavich VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Ok. So??? VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>The family that runs this organization has a history of VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>convictions for misuse of federal funds but justfying t VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>saying they were not stealing for themselves but for th VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>What has this have to do with the Good Deed Link? Just be VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>family that is running the organization may be bad doesn't VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>idea is not a good idea. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI> VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>One of the things that I like about being a Liberal Jew is VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>take what I like from Orthodox Judaism and disregard the r VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I remain suspecious of seemingly good deeds being organized b VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>unrepentent felons. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't see any direct connection between the felony and the goo VI>SF>VI>SF>I see the "good deed" being tainted and diminished by its connectio VI>SF>VI>SF>felony. VI>SF>VI>But is the Rabbi who is organizing this event himself implicated in an VI>SF>VI>of the felonies? Has he personally committed any crimes? VI>SF>I don't know that person, only the people he worls for and answers to. VI>If he isn't personally implicated then why does it cause you a problem? VI> Is that he is associated with the Lubavichter Hasidim that gives you VI>the problem? Would you have a problem if he worked for a gay group VI>that was in some way under a cloud? The founder and his son, the present head the the Committee for the Furthereance etc., are unrepented in justifying breaking federal laws and misusing federal funds in the name of religion. Date: Tuesday, September 2, 1997 9:51pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 740836 To: ** ALL ** Re: Latest Isreali outrage This story has been making the rounds of the liberal/progressive Jewish net. While there has been no direct link between this attack and the haredim that I have read about, to say the finger points in that direction would be an understatement. From today's Jerusalem Post (http://www.jpost.com/): Arsonists destroy Reform kindergarten MEVASSERET ZION (September 2) - Forty-one children whose parents are affiliated with the local Reform congregation in Mevasseret Zion got a lesson in intolerance yesterday morning, after discovering their school was torched overnight. The fire forced the youngsters to start the first day of school in temporary quarters. "We got here at 7:20 this morning to welcome the children. I opened the door and I saw black, because everything was black: the ceiling, the walls, the floor. Everything was charred. We called the police and a fire inspector arrived who ruled the fire arson," said Aliza Landau, the kindergarten's educational director. "We didn't have any threats of any kind," Landau said. However, she noted that about a year ago, when the local Reform congregation, Kehillat Mevasseret Zion, sought a plot of land to build on, "There was some loud opposition from some religious residents, particularly those from Shas. They cursed us and yelled at us that we weren't Jews," she said. No group took responsibility for the blaze at the Kamatz kindergarten on Rehov Hahazav (Kamatz is an abbreviation of Kehillat Mevasseret Zion). "Not even in my wildest dreams would I have thought that such a thing could happen," Landau said. "I can't understand how anyone could hurt three and four-year-olds like this. In the end we're not on strike, but a fire forced the closure of the building." The kindergarten that was torched, which was to begin its third year, is named after Rachel Shami Munk, a kindergarten teacher and former Mevasseret resident who was killed last July by terrorists along with her husband, Ze'ev, and father-in-law, Uri, in a drive-by shooting near Beit Shemesh. However, despite the fact that the fire destroyed most of the wall containing a tribute to her memory, "Raheli's picture wasn't touched. The whole wall is burned, but the picture of her and the children was untouched," said Landau. "And I promise her that this kindergarten will reopen and continue functioning." Kehillat Mevasseret Zion's Rabbi Maya Leibovich said yesterday, "There's discomfort among certain elements in the community over the fact that there is a Reform congregation. There's a bit of jealousy over the fact that we've established such a successful kindergarten here. Apparently the people who decided to try to put a stop to it only want one type of religious education here. "We can only hope that local officials will defend the idea of pluralism in our community," she said. "They should make themselves heard about someone who dares to pour flammable material into a kindergarten on the eve of the opening of school." Local council head Eli Mouyal said in response: "We take a very grave view of the torching of the kindergarten by unknown elements. For the past six years, the education system has operated very peacefully. The matter is being investigated by the police, who must bring those responsible to trial immediately, and draw the proper conclusions." Rabbi Uri Regev, director of the Reform Movement's Israel Religious Action Center, said yesterday: "We can't lose sight of the fact that this isn't an isolated local incident of violence against Reform Jews, but unfortunately has to be seen in light of hate speeches that were made against us by national religious leaders." "On Sunday, Chief Rabbi Yisrael Lau equated Reform Jewry with the suicidal Jihad terrorists. Recently, both Rabbi Aryeh Gamliel and Rabbi Moshe Gafni equated Reform Jewry with Hamas," he said. "It's painful to realize, with the memory of Rabin's assassination, that leaders are not aware of the horrendous consequences of such hate speeches. We call upon them with the coming High Holy Days, to reconsider their role and responsibility for what has transpired last night and what may yet happen if they do not understand the need for mutual respect rather than Jewish civil war." Mevasseret Zion officials were reportedly trying to find an alternative site for the kindergarten until repairs can be made. The youngsters spent yesterday at the home of one of the children, and Landau and Leibovich vowed to reopen soon. "It won't help anyone trying to close the kindergarten down," said Landau, "you can't burn hearts." Date: Tuesday, September 2, 1997 10:37pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 740848 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #740828, Reply to #740688, Reply to #740584, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>(Previous exchanges ommittted) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>As it stands now, I can understand some whole lines in SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayers. But mostly it is a word here and a word there SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>really be nice to be able to pick up the siddur and und SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayers! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>ALL may not happen that quickly. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't expect it to happen quickly. But I do hope it will h SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Just keep your goal clear and reachable. SF>VI>SF>VI>Hey, it is! SF>VI>SF>VI>Reb Marcia said in her class at Elat Chayyim that you really only n SF>VI>SF>VI>a vocubulary of 200 words to read most of the prayers in the siddur SF>VI>SF>VI>That doesn't seem too much of a reach to me. :) (She was saying t SF>VI>SF>VI>in a pitch to get the class members to study and learn Hebrew.) SF>VI>SF>Her theory should cover most of the basic prayers. SF>VI>Probably what she meant. SF>VI>I got a mailing from Brooklyn Heights Synagogue announcing their adult SF>VI>education schedule. They are offering a Hebrew one (alpha beth) and SF>VI>Hebrew three (reading comphresion) class in the fall, but no Hebrew SF>VI>two. They will be giving Hebrew two in the fall. :( SF>VI>Aditionally, the teacher is different! So the teacher I liked is no SF>VI>longer teaching the class! :( :( SF>VI>My Hebrew is not strong enough for me to take the Hebrew three class. SF>VI>And I know the alpha beth and vowels well enough that the Hebrew one SF>VI>class would be repeative for me. SF>VI>In terms of aquiring Hebrew language skills I am thinking of possibly SF>VI>ordering the Dor d'dor software. Have you heard anything about these SF>VI>programs? Do you know if they are any good? I have seen their web SF>VI>page. They have two programs which I am considering ordering--one SF>VI>called "Bracha builder" and the other called "Siddur surfer". I think SF>VI>if I remember correctly both programs have a 150 word vocubulary each. SF>VI>:) SF>I have seen the ads but have no direct or indirect experience with SF>either. Ok. I will check out Ansche Chesed which is offering a Hebrew 2 class and try to find out when that class is being offered and what text book they are using. I will also ee if BJ is offering Hebrew 2 and if they aer having a different teacher this time around to teach Hebrew 2 (the teacher they used last time was a ditz!) I like the text book "Prayerbook Hebrew Made Simple". So if a teacher will use that book as the text for the class and follow it, then I think the class will be ok. (The teacher at BJ didn't use any text book. She just skipped around the Siddur Sim Shalom (the Conservative siddur) without any real methodology. :( Date: Tuesday, September 2, 1997 10:38pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 740849 To: Steve Flur Re: The good deed link (Reply to #740829, Reply to #740689, Reply to #740585, R*) (2 replies) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>This is from an article which appearaed in SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Sentinel" of August 15-21, 1997. I have no SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>project, but I thought that it was an excel SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>"Let us do something positive together," sa SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>director of the National Committee for the SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Education of Nassau County, New York. Sear SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>million good deeds in memory of the six mil SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Holocasut, he invites everyone to send in t SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>card, together with a paper clip, which wil SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>that is expected to reach 140 miles long. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>"The chain will help in some small way, He SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>appreciate the enormity of six million vict SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>on what we can accomplish, when so many peo SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>good deeds together." Mail to: The Good Dee SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Willis Avenue, Mineola, NY SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>FYI this organization is affiliated with Lubav SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Ok. So??? SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>The family that runs this organization has a history SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>convictions for misuse of federal funds but justfyin SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>saying they were not stealing for themselves but for SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>What has this have to do with the Good Deed Link? Just SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>family that is running the organization may be bad does SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>idea is not a good idea. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI> SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>One of the things that I like about being a Liberal Jew SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>take what I like from Orthodox Judaism and disregard th SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I remain suspecious of seemingly good deeds being organize SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>unrepentent felons. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't see any direct connection between the felony and the SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I see the "good deed" being tainted and diminished by its connec SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>felony. SF>VI>SF>VI>But is the Rabbi who is organizing this event himself implicated in SF>VI>SF>VI>of the felonies? Has he personally committed any crimes? SF>VI>SF>I don't know that person, only the people he worls for and answers to. SF>VI>If he isn't personally implicated then why does it cause you a problem? SF>VI> Is that he is associated with the Lubavichter Hasidim that gives you SF>VI>the problem? Would you have a problem if he worked for a gay group SF>VI>that was in some way under a cloud? SF>The founder and his son, the present head the the Committee for the SF>Furthereance etc., are unrepented in justifying breaking federal laws SF>and misusing federal funds in the name of religion. Yes, but does that mean every one else connected with this group is guilty? It sounds like you are practising guilt by association to me, Steve. Date: Wednesday, September 3, 1997 11:50am Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 740855 To: Vida Re: The good deed link (Reply to #740849, Reply to #740829, Reply to #740689, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>The founder and his son, the present head the the Committee for the VI>SF>Furthereance etc., are unrepented in justifying breaking federal laws VI>SF>and misusing federal funds in the name of religion. VI>Yes, but does that mean every one else connected with this group is VI>guilty? It sounds like you are practising guilt by association to me, VI>Steve. Not only that but also playing G-d in knowing that the founder and his son are "repented." As far as I know, Lubavitch still receives federal funds so I guess the Government does not share Steve's feelings. Date: Wednesday, September 3, 1997 1:55pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 740862 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #740848, Reply to #740828, Reply to #740688, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>(Previous exchanges ommittted) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>As it stands now, I can understand some whole lines VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayers. But mostly it is a word here and a word th VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>really be nice to be able to pick up the siddur and VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayers! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>ALL may not happen that quickly. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't expect it to happen quickly. But I do hope it wil VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Just keep your goal clear and reachable. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Hey, it is! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Reb Marcia said in her class at Elat Chayyim that you really onl VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>a vocubulary of 200 words to read most of the prayers in the sid VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That doesn't seem too much of a reach to me. :) (She was sayin VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>in a pitch to get the class members to study and learn Hebrew.) VI>SF>VI>SF>Her theory should cover most of the basic prayers. VI>SF>VI>Probably what she meant. VI>SF>VI>I got a mailing from Brooklyn Heights Synagogue announcing their adult VI>SF>VI>education schedule. They are offering a Hebrew one (alpha beth) and VI>SF>VI>Hebrew three (reading comphresion) class in the fall, but no Hebrew VI>SF>VI>two. They will be giving Hebrew two in the fall. :( VI>SF>VI>Aditionally, the teacher is different! So the teacher I liked is no VI>SF>VI>longer teaching the class! :( :( VI>SF>VI>My Hebrew is not strong enough for me to take the Hebrew three class. VI>SF>VI>And I know the alpha beth and vowels well enough that the Hebrew one VI>SF>VI>class would be repeative for me. VI>SF>VI>In terms of aquiring Hebrew language skills I am thinking of possibly VI>SF>VI>ordering the Dor d'dor software. Have you heard anything about these VI>SF>VI>programs? Do you know if they are any good? I have seen their web VI>SF>VI>page. They have two programs which I am considering ordering--one VI>SF>VI>called "Bracha builder" and the other called "Siddur surfer". I think VI>SF>VI>if I remember correctly both programs have a 150 word vocubulary each. VI>SF>VI>:) VI>SF>I have seen the ads but have no direct or indirect experience with VI>SF>either. VI>Ok. I will check out Ansche Chesed which is offering a Hebrew 2 class VI>and try to find out when that class is being offered and what text book VI>they are using. I will also ee if BJ is offering Hebrew 2 and if they VI>aer having a different teacher this time around to teach Hebrew 2 (the VI>teacher they used last time was a ditz!) VI>I like the text book "Prayerbook Hebrew Made Simple". So if a teacher VI>will use that book as the text for the class and follow it, then I VI>think the class will be ok. (The teacher at BJ didn't use any text VI>book. She just skipped around the Siddur Sim Shalom (the Conservative VI>siddur) without any real methodology. :( Hopefully you will eventually find a class at the right time, right place, with the right teacher, using the right book. Date: Wednesday, September 3, 1997 1:56pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 740863 To: Vida Re: The good deed link (Reply to #740849, Reply to #740829, Reply to #740689, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>This is from an article which appearaed VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Sentinel" of August 15-21, 1997. I have VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>project, but I thought that it was an ex VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>"Let us do something positive together," VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>director of the National Committee for t VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Education of Nassau County, New York. S VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>million good deeds in memory of the six VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Holocasut, he invites everyone to send i VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>card, together with a paper clip, which VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>that is expected to reach 140 miles long VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>"The chain will help in some small way, VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>appreciate the enormity of six million v VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>on what we can accomplish, when so many VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>good deeds together." Mail to: The Good VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Willis Avenue, Mineola, NY VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>FYI this organization is affiliated with Lu VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Ok. So??? VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>The family that runs this organization has a hist VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>convictions for misuse of federal funds but justf VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>saying they were not stealing for themselves but VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>What has this have to do with the Good Deed Link? J VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>family that is running the organization may be bad d VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>idea is not a good idea. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI> VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>One of the things that I like about being a Liberal VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>take what I like from Orthodox Judaism and disregard VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I remain suspecious of seemingly good deeds being organ VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>unrepentent felons. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't see any direct connection between the felony and t VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I see the "good deed" being tainted and diminished by its con VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>felony. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>But is the Rabbi who is organizing this event himself implicated VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>of the felonies? Has he personally committed any crimes? VI>SF>VI>SF>I don't know that person, only the people he worls for and answers VI>SF>VI>If he isn't personally implicated then why does it cause you a problem VI>SF>VI> Is that he is associated with the Lubavichter Hasidim that gives you VI>SF>VI>the problem? Would you have a problem if he worked for a gay group VI>SF>VI>that was in some way under a cloud? VI>SF>The founder and his son, the present head the the Committee for the VI>SF>Furthereance etc., are unrepented in justifying breaking federal laws VI>SF>and misusing federal funds in the name of religion. VI>Yes, but does that mean every one else connected with this group is VI>guilty? It sounds like you are practising guilt by association to me, VI>Steve. Only in regard to the leadership. Date: Thursday, September 4, 1997 4:03am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 740892 To: Kkid Re: The good deed link (Reply to #740855, Reply to #740849, Reply to #740829, R*) KK>VI>SF>The founder and his son, the present head the the Committee for the KK>VI>SF>Furthereance etc., are unrepented in justifying breaking federal laws KK>VI>SF>and misusing federal funds in the name of religion. KK>VI>Yes, but does that mean every one else connected with this group is KK>VI>guilty? It sounds like you are practising guilt by association to me, KK>VI>Steve. KK>Not only that but also playing G-d in knowing that the founder and his KK>son are "repented." As far as I know, Lubavitch still receives federal KK>funds so I guess the Government does not share Steve's feelings. Well the government may not have legal grounds to cut off funding to the Lubavicthers, especially since they are a religious group. And let's face it, if they tried to cut off funding to the Lubavichters that group would sue the government's a**. Just look at the Kryas Joel (spelling?) school case--although I know that this case involves the Satmars, not the Lubavichters. I think NYS and or Orange County has been tied up in litigation over the issue of whether they can/should/must provide special ed programs to religious schools run by the Satmars for years and years and years. Date: Thursday, September 4, 1997 4:05am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 740893 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #740862, Reply to #740848, Reply to #740828, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>(Previous exchanges ommittted) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>As it stands now, I can understand some whole lin SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayers. But mostly it is a word here and a word SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>really be nice to be able to pick up the siddur a SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayers! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>ALL may not happen that quickly. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't expect it to happen quickly. But I do hope it SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Just keep your goal clear and reachable. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Hey, it is! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Reb Marcia said in her class at Elat Chayyim that you really SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>a vocubulary of 200 words to read most of the prayers in the SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That doesn't seem too much of a reach to me. :) (She was sa SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>in a pitch to get the class members to study and learn Hebrew SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Her theory should cover most of the basic prayers. SF>VI>SF>VI>Probably what she meant. SF>VI>SF>VI>I got a mailing from Brooklyn Heights Synagogue announcing their ad SF>VI>SF>VI>education schedule. They are offering a Hebrew one (alpha beth) an SF>VI>SF>VI>Hebrew three (reading comphresion) class in the fall, but no Hebrew SF>VI>SF>VI>two. They will be giving Hebrew two in the fall. :( SF>VI>SF>VI>Aditionally, the teacher is different! So the teacher I liked is n SF>VI>SF>VI>longer teaching the class! :( :( SF>VI>SF>VI>My Hebrew is not strong enough for me to take the Hebrew three clas SF>VI>SF>VI>And I know the alpha beth and vowels well enough that the Hebrew on SF>VI>SF>VI>class would be repeative for me. SF>VI>SF>VI>In terms of aquiring Hebrew language skills I am thinking of possib SF>VI>SF>VI>ordering the Dor d'dor software. Have you heard anything about the SF>VI>SF>VI>programs? Do you know if they are any good? I have seen their web SF>VI>SF>VI>page. They have two programs which I am considering ordering--one SF>VI>SF>VI>called "Bracha builder" and the other called "Siddur surfer". I th SF>VI>SF>VI>if I remember correctly both programs have a 150 word vocubulary ea SF>VI>SF>VI>:) SF>VI>SF>I have seen the ads but have no direct or indirect experience with SF>VI>SF>either. SF>VI>Ok. I will check out Ansche Chesed which is offering a Hebrew 2 class SF>VI>and try to find out when that class is being offered and what text book SF>VI>they are using. I will also ee if BJ is offering Hebrew 2 and if they SF>VI>aer having a different teacher this time around to teach Hebrew 2 (the SF>VI>teacher they used last time was a ditz!) SF>VI>I like the text book "Prayerbook Hebrew Made Simple". So if a teacher SF>VI>will use that book as the text for the class and follow it, then I SF>VI>think the class will be ok. (The teacher at BJ didn't use any text SF>VI>book. She just skipped around the Siddur Sim Shalom (the Conservative SF>VI>siddur) without any real methodology. :( SF>Hopefully you will eventually find a class at the right time, right SF>place, with the right teacher, using the right book. I sure hope so! But if I can't I may order the software as a back up. My schedule is so crazy and limited that it may be impossible for me to find such a class. Date: Thursday, September 4, 1997 4:06am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 740894 To: Steve Flur Re: The good deed link (Reply to #740863, Reply to #740849, Reply to #740829, R*) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>This is from an article which appeara SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Sentinel" of August 15-21, 1997. I h SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>project, but I thought that it was an SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>"Let us do something positive togethe SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>director of the National Committee fo SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Education of Nassau County, New York. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>million good deeds in memory of the s SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Holocasut, he invites everyone to sen SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>card, together with a paper clip, whi SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>that is expected to reach 140 miles l SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>"The chain will help in some small wa SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>appreciate the enormity of six millio SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>on what we can accomplish, when so ma SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>good deeds together." Mail to: The Go SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Willis Avenue, Mineola, NY SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>FYI this organization is affiliated with SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Ok. So??? SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>The family that runs this organization has a h SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>convictions for misuse of federal funds but ju SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>saying they were not stealing for themselves b SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>What has this have to do with the Good Deed Link? SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>family that is running the organization may be ba SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>idea is not a good idea. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI> SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>One of the things that I like about being a Liber SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>take what I like from Orthodox Judaism and disreg SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I remain suspecious of seemingly good deeds being or SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>unrepentent felons. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't see any direct connection between the felony an SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I see the "good deed" being tainted and diminished by its SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>felony. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>But is the Rabbi who is organizing this event himself implica SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>of the felonies? Has he personally committed any crimes? SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I don't know that person, only the people he worls for and answe SF>VI>SF>VI>If he isn't personally implicated then why does it cause you a prob SF>VI>SF>VI> Is that he is associated with the Lubavichter Hasidim that gives y SF>VI>SF>VI>the problem? Would you have a problem if he worked for a gay group SF>VI>SF>VI>that was in some way under a cloud? SF>VI>SF>The founder and his son, the present head the the Committee for the SF>VI>SF>Furthereance etc., are unrepented in justifying breaking federal laws SF>VI>SF>and misusing federal funds in the name of religion. SF>VI>Yes, but does that mean every one else connected with this group is SF>VI>guilty? It sounds like you are practising guilt by association to me, SF>VI>Steve. SF>Only in regard to the leadership. Why the distinction? Shouldn't you make a judgement on a person based upon his/her own actions? Date: Thursday, September 4, 1997 11:38am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 740903 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #740893, Reply to #740862, Reply to #740848, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>(Previous exchanges ommittted) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>As it stands now, I can understand some whole VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayers. But mostly it is a word here and a w VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>really be nice to be able to pick up the siddu VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayers! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>ALL may not happen that quickly. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't expect it to happen quickly. But I do hope VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Just keep your goal clear and reachable. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Hey, it is! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Reb Marcia said in her class at Elat Chayyim that you real VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>a vocubulary of 200 words to read most of the prayers in t VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That doesn't seem too much of a reach to me. :) (She was VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>in a pitch to get the class members to study and learn Heb VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Her theory should cover most of the basic prayers. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Probably what she meant. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I got a mailing from Brooklyn Heights Synagogue announcing their VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>education schedule. They are offering a Hebrew one (alpha beth) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Hebrew three (reading comphresion) class in the fall, but no Heb VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>two. They will be giving Hebrew two in the fall. :( VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Aditionally, the teacher is different! So the teacher I liked i VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>longer teaching the class! :( :( VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>My Hebrew is not strong enough for me to take the Hebrew three c VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>And I know the alpha beth and vowels well enough that the Hebrew VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>class would be repeative for me. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>In terms of aquiring Hebrew language skills I am thinking of pos VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>ordering the Dor d'dor software. Have you heard anything about VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>programs? Do you know if they are any good? I have seen their VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>page. They have two programs which I am considering ordering-- VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>called "Bracha builder" and the other called "Siddur surfer". I VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>if I remember correctly both programs have a 150 word vocubulary VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>:) VI>SF>VI>SF>I have seen the ads but have no direct or indirect experience with VI>SF>VI>SF>either. VI>SF>VI>Ok. I will check out Ansche Chesed which is offering a Hebrew 2 class VI>SF>VI>and try to find out when that class is being offered and what text boo VI>SF>VI>they are using. I will also ee if BJ is offering Hebrew 2 and if the VI>SF>VI>aer having a different teacher this time around to teach Hebrew 2 (the VI>SF>VI>teacher they used last time was a ditz!) VI>SF>VI>I like the text book "Prayerbook Hebrew Made Simple". So if a teacher VI>SF>VI>will use that book as the text for the class and follow it, then I VI>SF>VI>think the class will be ok. (The teacher at BJ didn't use any text VI>SF>VI>book. She just skipped around the Siddur Sim Shalom (the Conservative VI>SF>VI>siddur) without any real methodology. :( VI>SF>Hopefully you will eventually find a class at the right time, right VI>SF>place, with the right teacher, using the right book. VI>I sure hope so! But if I can't I may order the software as a back up. VI>My schedule is so crazy and limited that it may be impossible for me to VI>find such a class. But you can schedule how you use your computer. Date: Saturday, September 6, 1997 2:08am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 741007 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #740903, Reply to #740893, Reply to #740862, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>(Previous exchanges ommittted) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>As it stands now, I can understand some who SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayers. But mostly it is a word here and SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>really be nice to be able to pick up the si SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayers! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>ALL may not happen that quickly. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't expect it to happen quickly. But I do ho SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Just keep your goal clear and reachable. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Hey, it is! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Reb Marcia said in her class at Elat Chayyim that you r SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>a vocubulary of 200 words to read most of the prayers i SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That doesn't seem too much of a reach to me. :) (She SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>in a pitch to get the class members to study and learn SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Her theory should cover most of the basic prayers. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Probably what she meant. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I got a mailing from Brooklyn Heights Synagogue announcing th SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>education schedule. They are offering a Hebrew one (alpha be SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Hebrew three (reading comphresion) class in the fall, but no SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>two. They will be giving Hebrew two in the fall. :( SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Aditionally, the teacher is different! So the teacher I like SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>longer teaching the class! :( :( SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>My Hebrew is not strong enough for me to take the Hebrew thre SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>And I know the alpha beth and vowels well enough that the Heb SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>class would be repeative for me. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>In terms of aquiring Hebrew language skills I am thinking of SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>ordering the Dor d'dor software. Have you heard anything abo SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>programs? Do you know if they are any good? I have seen the SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>page. They have two programs which I am considering orderin SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>called "Bracha builder" and the other called "Siddur surfer". SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>if I remember correctly both programs have a 150 word vocubul SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>:) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I have seen the ads but have no direct or indirect experience wi SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>either. SF>VI>SF>VI>Ok. I will check out Ansche Chesed which is offering a Hebrew 2 cl SF>VI>SF>VI>and try to find out when that class is being offered and what text SF>VI>SF>VI>they are using. I will also ee if BJ is offering Hebrew 2 and if SF>VI>SF>VI>aer having a different teacher this time around to teach Hebrew 2 ( SF>VI>SF>VI>teacher they used last time was a ditz!) SF>VI>SF>VI>I like the text book "Prayerbook Hebrew Made Simple". So if a teac SF>VI>SF>VI>will use that book as the text for the class and follow it, then I SF>VI>SF>VI>think the class will be ok. (The teacher at BJ didn't use any text SF>VI>SF>VI>book. She just skipped around the Siddur Sim Shalom (the Conservat SF>VI>SF>VI>siddur) without any real methodology. :( SF>VI>SF>Hopefully you will eventually find a class at the right time, right SF>VI>SF>place, with the right teacher, using the right book. SF>VI>I sure hope so! But if I can't I may order the software as a back up. SF>VI>My schedule is so crazy and limited that it may be impossible for me to SF>VI>find such a class. SF>But you can schedule how you use your computer. That's exactly what I was thinking. But it has to be the right software program. I already tried that using computer sofware once. I bought a program called "Hebrew Tutor" that I found one day in J & R Computer World. It's put out by Parsons Technology. it is basically designed for Christian seminary students who want to be able to read the Hebrew bible in the original. (They have a similiar program called "Greek Tutor" designed to read the so called "New Testament" in the original ancient Greek.) The problem with the "Hebrew Tutor" software is that it has too large of a vocubulary for me. It goes too fast and expects you too remember too much. At the end of the program you read the Book of Ruth in the original Hebrew. Which would be nice. But for now, I just want to get enough Hebrew literacy to read the siddur!!! But in the end, I may have no choice but to try the software. At least the software that I am considering purchasing SOUNDS on paper what I am looking for. I haven't been able to call Anche Chesed this week because I selected a jury this week and am now waiting for a judge assignment on a case. That's the real problem with me taking classes--if I find a class that I can fit into my schedule I almost always have to miss classes because a trial gets in the way!!! Date: Monday, September 8, 1997 11:50am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 741048 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #741007, Reply to #740903, Reply to #740893, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>(Previous exchanges ommittted) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>As it stands now, I can understand some VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayers. But mostly it is a word here a VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>really be nice to be able to pick up the VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayers! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>ALL may not happen that quickly. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't expect it to happen quickly. But I do VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Just keep your goal clear and reachable. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Hey, it is! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Reb Marcia said in her class at Elat Chayyim that yo VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>a vocubulary of 200 words to read most of the prayer VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That doesn't seem too much of a reach to me. :) (S VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>in a pitch to get the class members to study and lea VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Her theory should cover most of the basic prayers. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Probably what she meant. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I got a mailing from Brooklyn Heights Synagogue announcing VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>education schedule. They are offering a Hebrew one (alpha VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Hebrew three (reading comphresion) class in the fall, but VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>two. They will be giving Hebrew two in the fall. :( VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Aditionally, the teacher is different! So the teacher I l VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>longer teaching the class! :( :( VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>My Hebrew is not strong enough for me to take the Hebrew t VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>And I know the alpha beth and vowels well enough that the VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>class would be repeative for me. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>In terms of aquiring Hebrew language skills I am thinking VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>ordering the Dor d'dor software. Have you heard anything VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>programs? Do you know if they are any good? I have seen VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>page. They have two programs which I am considering orde VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>called "Bracha builder" and the other called "Siddur surfe VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>if I remember correctly both programs have a 150 word vocu VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>:) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I have seen the ads but have no direct or indirect experience VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>either. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Ok. I will check out Ansche Chesed which is offering a Hebrew 2 VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>and try to find out when that class is being offered and what te VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>they are using. I will also ee if BJ is offering Hebrew 2 and VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>aer having a different teacher this time around to teach Hebrew VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>teacher they used last time was a ditz!) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I like the text book "Prayerbook Hebrew Made Simple". So if a t VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>will use that book as the text for the class and follow it, then VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>think the class will be ok. (The teacher at BJ didn't use any t VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>book. She just skipped around the Siddur Sim Shalom (the Conser VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>siddur) without any real methodology. :( VI>SF>VI>SF>Hopefully you will eventually find a class at the right time, right VI>SF>VI>SF>place, with the right teacher, using the right book. VI>SF>VI>I sure hope so! But if I can't I may order the software as a back up. VI>SF>VI>My schedule is so crazy and limited that it may be impossible for me t VI>SF>VI>find such a class. VI>SF>But you can schedule how you use your computer. VI>That's exactly what I was thinking. But it has to be the right VI>software program. I already tried that using computer sofware once. VI> I bought a program called "Hebrew Tutor" that I found one day in J & R VI>Computer World. It's put out by Parsons Technology. it is basically VI>designed for Christian seminary students who want to be able to read VI>the Hebrew bible in the original. (They have a similiar program called VI>"Greek Tutor" designed to read the so called "New Testament" in the VI>original ancient Greek.) VI>The problem with the "Hebrew Tutor" software is that it has too large VI>of a vocubulary for me. It goes too fast and expects you too remember VI>too much. At the end of the program you read the Book of Ruth in the VI>original Hebrew. Which would be nice. But for now, I just want to get VI>enough Hebrew literacy to read the siddur!!! VI> VI>But in the end, I may have no choice but to try the software. At least VI>the software that I am considering purchasing SOUNDS on paper what I am VI>looking for. VI>I haven't been able to call Anche Chesed this week because I selected a VI>jury this week and am now waiting for a judge assignment on a case. VI>That's the real problem with me taking classes--if I find a class that VI>I can fit into my schedule I almost always have to miss classes because VI>a trial gets in the way!!! Good luck on your software search! Date: Monday, September 8, 1997 11:16pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 741062 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #741048, Reply to #741007, Reply to #740903, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>(Previous exchanges ommittted) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>As it stands now, I can understand so SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayers. But mostly it is a word her SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>really be nice to be able to pick up SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayers! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>ALL may not happen that quickly. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't expect it to happen quickly. But I SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Just keep your goal clear and reachable. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Hey, it is! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Reb Marcia said in her class at Elat Chayyim that SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>a vocubulary of 200 words to read most of the pra SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That doesn't seem too much of a reach to me. :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>in a pitch to get the class members to study and SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Her theory should cover most of the basic prayers. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Probably what she meant. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I got a mailing from Brooklyn Heights Synagogue announc SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>education schedule. They are offering a Hebrew one (al SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Hebrew three (reading comphresion) class in the fall, b SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>two. They will be giving Hebrew two in the fall. :( SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Aditionally, the teacher is different! So the teacher SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>longer teaching the class! :( :( SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>My Hebrew is not strong enough for me to take the Hebre SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>And I know the alpha beth and vowels well enough that t SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>class would be repeative for me. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>In terms of aquiring Hebrew language skills I am thinki SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>ordering the Dor d'dor software. Have you heard anythi SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>programs? Do you know if they are any good? I have se SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>page. They have two programs which I am considering o SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>called "Bracha builder" and the other called "Siddur su SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>if I remember correctly both programs have a 150 word v SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>:) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I have seen the ads but have no direct or indirect experie SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>either. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Ok. I will check out Ansche Chesed which is offering a Hebre SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>and try to find out when that class is being offered and what SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>they are using. I will also ee if BJ is offering Hebrew 2 a SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>aer having a different teacher this time around to teach Hebr SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>teacher they used last time was a ditz!) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I like the text book "Prayerbook Hebrew Made Simple". So if SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>will use that book as the text for the class and follow it, t SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>think the class will be ok. (The teacher at BJ didn't use an SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>book. She just skipped around the Siddur Sim Shalom (the Con SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>siddur) without any real methodology. :( SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Hopefully you will eventually find a class at the right time, ri SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>place, with the right teacher, using the right book. SF>VI>SF>VI>I sure hope so! But if I can't I may order the software as a back SF>VI>SF>VI>My schedule is so crazy and limited that it may be impossible for m SF>VI>SF>VI>find such a class. SF>VI>SF>But you can schedule how you use your computer. SF>VI>That's exactly what I was thinking. But it has to be the right SF>VI>software program. I already tried that using computer sofware once. SF>VI> I bought a program called "Hebrew Tutor" that I found one day in J & R SF>VI>Computer World. It's put out by Parsons Technology. it is basically SF>VI>designed for Christian seminary students who want to be able to read SF>VI>the Hebrew bible in the original. (They have a similiar program called SF>VI>"Greek Tutor" designed to read the so called "New Testament" in the SF>VI>original ancient Greek.) SF>VI>The problem with the "Hebrew Tutor" software is that it has too large SF>VI>of a vocubulary for me. It goes too fast and expects you too remember SF>VI>too much. At the end of the program you read the Book of Ruth in the SF>VI>original Hebrew. Which would be nice. But for now, I just want to get SF>VI>enough Hebrew literacy to read the siddur!!! SF>VI> SF>VI>But in the end, I may have no choice but to try the software. At least SF>VI>the software that I am considering purchasing SOUNDS on paper what I am SF>VI>looking for. SF>VI>I haven't been able to call Anche Chesed this week because I selected a SF>VI>jury this week and am now waiting for a judge assignment on a case. SF>VI>That's the real problem with me taking classes--if I find a class that SF>VI>I can fit into my schedule I almost always have to miss classes because SF>VI>a trial gets in the way!!! SF>Good luck on your software search! I don't know of any other software except Siddur Surfer and Bracha Builder. I have searched Maven for possible links for more. Date: Tuesday, September 9, 1997 8:32am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 741066 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #741062, Reply to #741048, Reply to #741007, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>(Previous exchanges ommittted) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>As it stands now, I can understand VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayers. But mostly it is a word VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>really be nice to be able to pick VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayers! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>ALL may not happen that quickly. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't expect it to happen quickly. Bu VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Just keep your goal clear and reachable. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Hey, it is! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Reb Marcia said in her class at Elat Chayyim t VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>a vocubulary of 200 words to read most of the VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That doesn't seem too much of a reach to me. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>in a pitch to get the class members to study a VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Her theory should cover most of the basic prayers VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Probably what she meant. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I got a mailing from Brooklyn Heights Synagogue anno VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>education schedule. They are offering a Hebrew one VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Hebrew three (reading comphresion) class in the fall VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>two. They will be giving Hebrew two in the fall. : VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Aditionally, the teacher is different! So the teach VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>longer teaching the class! :( :( VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>My Hebrew is not strong enough for me to take the He VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>And I know the alpha beth and vowels well enough tha VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>class would be repeative for me. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>In terms of aquiring Hebrew language skills I am thi VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>ordering the Dor d'dor software. Have you heard any VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>programs? Do you know if they are any good? I have VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>page. They have two programs which I am considerin VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>called "Bracha builder" and the other called "Siddur VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>if I remember correctly both programs have a 150 wor VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>:) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I have seen the ads but have no direct or indirect expe VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>either. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Ok. I will check out Ansche Chesed which is offering a He VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>and try to find out when that class is being offered and w VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>they are using. I will also ee if BJ is offering Hebrew VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>aer having a different teacher this time around to teach H VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>teacher they used last time was a ditz!) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I like the text book "Prayerbook Hebrew Made Simple". So VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>will use that book as the text for the class and follow it VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>think the class will be ok. (The teacher at BJ didn't use VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>book. She just skipped around the Siddur Sim Shalom (the VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>siddur) without any real methodology. :( VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Hopefully you will eventually find a class at the right time, VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>place, with the right teacher, using the right book. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I sure hope so! But if I can't I may order the software as a ba VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>My schedule is so crazy and limited that it may be impossible fo VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>find such a class. VI>SF>VI>SF>But you can schedule how you use your computer. VI>SF>VI>That's exactly what I was thinking. But it has to be the right VI>SF>VI>software program. I already tried that using computer sofware once. VI>SF>VI> I bought a program called "Hebrew Tutor" that I found one day in J & VI>SF>VI>Computer World. It's put out by Parsons Technology. it is basically VI>SF>VI>designed for Christian seminary students who want to be able to read VI>SF>VI>the Hebrew bible in the original. (They have a similiar program calle VI>SF>VI>"Greek Tutor" designed to read the so called "New Testament" in the VI>SF>VI>original ancient Greek.) VI>SF>VI>The problem with the "Hebrew Tutor" software is that it has too large VI>SF>VI>of a vocubulary for me. It goes too fast and expects you too remember VI>SF>VI>too much. At the end of the program you read the Book of Ruth in the VI>SF>VI>original Hebrew. Which would be nice. But for now, I just want to ge VI>SF>VI>enough Hebrew literacy to read the siddur!!! VI>SF>VI> VI>SF>VI>But in the end, I may have no choice but to try the software. At leas VI>SF>VI>the software that I am considering purchasing SOUNDS on paper what I a VI>SF>VI>looking for. VI>SF>VI>I haven't been able to call Anche Chesed this week because I selected VI>SF>VI>jury this week and am now waiting for a judge assignment on a case. VI>SF>VI>That's the real problem with me taking classes--if I find a class that VI>SF>VI>I can fit into my schedule I almost always have to miss classes becaus VI>SF>VI>a trial gets in the way!!! VI>SF>Good luck on your software search! VI>I don't know of any other software except Siddur Surfer and Bracha VI>Builder. I have searched Maven for possible links for more. I would suggest the one best targeting basic prayers. Date: Wednesday, September 10, 1997 12:01am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 741085 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #741066, Reply to #741062, Reply to #741048, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>(Previous exchanges ommittted) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>As it stands now, I can underst SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayers. But mostly it is a wo SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>really be nice to be able to pi SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayers! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>ALL may not happen that quickly. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't expect it to happen quickly. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Just keep your goal clear and reachable. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Hey, it is! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Reb Marcia said in her class at Elat Chayyi SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>a vocubulary of 200 words to read most of t SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That doesn't seem too much of a reach to me SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>in a pitch to get the class members to stud SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Her theory should cover most of the basic pray SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Probably what she meant. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I got a mailing from Brooklyn Heights Synagogue a SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>education schedule. They are offering a Hebrew o SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Hebrew three (reading comphresion) class in the f SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>two. They will be giving Hebrew two in the fall. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Aditionally, the teacher is different! So the te SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>longer teaching the class! :( :( SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>My Hebrew is not strong enough for me to take the SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>And I know the alpha beth and vowels well enough SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>class would be repeative for me. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>In terms of aquiring Hebrew language skills I am SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>ordering the Dor d'dor software. Have you heard SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>programs? Do you know if they are any good? I h SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>page. They have two programs which I am conside SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>called "Bracha builder" and the other called "Sid SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>if I remember correctly both programs have a 150 SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>:) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I have seen the ads but have no direct or indirect e SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>either. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Ok. I will check out Ansche Chesed which is offering a SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>and try to find out when that class is being offered an SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>they are using. I will also ee if BJ is offering Hebr SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>aer having a different teacher this time around to teac SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>teacher they used last time was a ditz!) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I like the text book "Prayerbook Hebrew Made Simple". SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>will use that book as the text for the class and follow SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>think the class will be ok. (The teacher at BJ didn't SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>book. She just skipped around the Siddur Sim Shalom (t SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>siddur) without any real methodology. :( SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Hopefully you will eventually find a class at the right ti SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>place, with the right teacher, using the right book. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I sure hope so! But if I can't I may order the software as a SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>My schedule is so crazy and limited that it may be impossible SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>find such a class. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>But you can schedule how you use your computer. SF>VI>SF>VI>That's exactly what I was thinking. But it has to be the right SF>VI>SF>VI>software program. I already tried that using computer sofware once SF>VI>SF>VI> I bought a program called "Hebrew Tutor" that I found one day in J SF>VI>SF>VI>Computer World. It's put out by Parsons Technology. it is basical SF>VI>SF>VI>designed for Christian seminary students who want to be able to rea SF>VI>SF>VI>the Hebrew bible in the original. (They have a similiar program ca SF>VI>SF>VI>"Greek Tutor" designed to read the so called "New Testament" in th SF>VI>SF>VI>original ancient Greek.) SF>VI>SF>VI>The problem with the "Hebrew Tutor" software is that it has too lar SF>VI>SF>VI>of a vocubulary for me. It goes too fast and expects you too remem SF>VI>SF>VI>too much. At the end of the program you read the Book of Ruth in t SF>VI>SF>VI>original Hebrew. Which would be nice. But for now, I just want to SF>VI>SF>VI>enough Hebrew literacy to read the siddur!!! SF>VI>SF>VI> SF>VI>SF>VI>But in the end, I may have no choice but to try the software. At l SF>VI>SF>VI>the software that I am considering purchasing SOUNDS on paper what SF>VI>SF>VI>looking for. SF>VI>SF>VI>I haven't been able to call Anche Chesed this week because I select SF>VI>SF>VI>jury this week and am now waiting for a judge assignment on a case. SF>VI>SF>VI>That's the real problem with me taking classes--if I find a class t SF>VI>SF>VI>I can fit into my schedule I almost always have to miss classes bec SF>VI>SF>VI>a trial gets in the way!!! SF>VI>SF>Good luck on your software search! SF>VI>I don't know of any other software except Siddur Surfer and Bracha SF>VI>Builder. I have searched Maven for possible links for more. SF>I would suggest the one best targeting basic prayers. That's the one I had in mind. Once I finish with this trial I will call out the software company and asked them to send me a catalog. I want to make sure that the Siddur Surfer software stands by itself and that you don't need to know the material in the Bracha Builder first. I also want to check and make sure that the software is available in Sephardic prouncation, since this is the prouncation that is now used in all nonO shuls. Date: Wednesday, September 10, 1997 8:43am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 741090 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #741085, Reply to #741066, Reply to #741062, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>(Previous exchanges ommittted) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>As it stands now, I can unde VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayers. But mostly it is a VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>really be nice to be able to VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayers! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>ALL may not happen that quickly VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't expect it to happen quickl VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Just keep your goal clear and reachab VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Hey, it is! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Reb Marcia said in her class at Elat Cha VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>a vocubulary of 200 words to read most o VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That doesn't seem too much of a reach to VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>in a pitch to get the class members to s VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Her theory should cover most of the basic p VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Probably what she meant. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I got a mailing from Brooklyn Heights Synagogu VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>education schedule. They are offering a Hebre VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Hebrew three (reading comphresion) class in th VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>two. They will be giving Hebrew two in the fa VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Aditionally, the teacher is different! So the VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>longer teaching the class! :( :( VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>My Hebrew is not strong enough for me to take VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>And I know the alpha beth and vowels well enou VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>class would be repeative for me. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>In terms of aquiring Hebrew language skills I VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>ordering the Dor d'dor software. Have you hea VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>programs? Do you know if they are any good? VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>page. They have two programs which I am cons VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>called "Bracha builder" and the other called " VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>if I remember correctly both programs have a 1 VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>:) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I have seen the ads but have no direct or indirec VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>either. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Ok. I will check out Ansche Chesed which is offerin VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>and try to find out when that class is being offered VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>they are using. I will also ee if BJ is offering H VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>aer having a different teacher this time around to t VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>teacher they used last time was a ditz!) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I like the text book "Prayerbook Hebrew Made Simple" VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>will use that book as the text for the class and fol VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>think the class will be ok. (The teacher at BJ didn VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>book. She just skipped around the Siddur Sim Shalom VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>siddur) without any real methodology. :( VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Hopefully you will eventually find a class at the right VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>place, with the right teacher, using the right book. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I sure hope so! But if I can't I may order the software a VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>My schedule is so crazy and limited that it may be impossi VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>find such a class. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>But you can schedule how you use your computer. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That's exactly what I was thinking. But it has to be the right VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>software program. I already tried that using computer sofware o VI>SF>VI>SF>VI> I bought a program called "Hebrew Tutor" that I found one day i VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Computer World. It's put out by Parsons Technology. it is basi VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>designed for Christian seminary students who want to be able to VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>the Hebrew bible in the original. (They have a similiar program VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>"Greek Tutor" designed to read the so called "New Testament" in VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>original ancient Greek.) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>The problem with the "Hebrew Tutor" software is that it has too VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>of a vocubulary for me. It goes too fast and expects you too re VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>too much. At the end of the program you read the Book of Ruth i VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>original Hebrew. Which would be nice. But for now, I just want VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>enough Hebrew literacy to read the siddur!!! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI> VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>But in the end, I may have no choice but to try the software. A VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>the software that I am considering purchasing SOUNDS on paper wh VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>looking for. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I haven't been able to call Anche Chesed this week because I sel VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>jury this week and am now waiting for a judge assignment on a ca VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That's the real problem with me taking classes--if I find a clas VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I can fit into my schedule I almost always have to miss classes VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>a trial gets in the way!!! VI>SF>VI>SF>Good luck on your software search! VI>SF>VI>I don't know of any other software except Siddur Surfer and Bracha VI>SF>VI>Builder. I have searched Maven for possible links for more. VI>SF>I would suggest the one best targeting basic prayers. VI>That's the one I had in mind. Once I finish with this trial I will VI>call out the software company and asked them to send me a catalog. I VI>want to make sure that the Siddur Surfer software stands by itself and VI>that you don't need to know the material in the Bracha Builder first. VI>I also want to check and make sure that the software is available in VI>Sephardic prouncation, since this is the prouncation that is now used VI>in all nonO shuls. My background and education was Orthodox and Sephardic was the way I was taught. Date: Friday, September 12, 1997 7:26am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 741222 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #741090, Reply to #741085, Reply to #741066, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>(Previous exchanges ommittted) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>As it stands now, I can u SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayers. But mostly it i SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>really be nice to be able SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayers! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>ALL may not happen that quic SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't expect it to happen qui SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Just keep your goal clear and reac SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Hey, it is! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Reb Marcia said in her class at Elat SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>a vocubulary of 200 words to read mos SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That doesn't seem too much of a reach SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>in a pitch to get the class members t SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Her theory should cover most of the basi SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Probably what she meant. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I got a mailing from Brooklyn Heights Synag SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>education schedule. They are offering a He SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Hebrew three (reading comphresion) class in SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>two. They will be giving Hebrew two in the SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Aditionally, the teacher is different! So SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>longer teaching the class! :( :( SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>My Hebrew is not strong enough for me to ta SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>And I know the alpha beth and vowels well e SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>class would be repeative for me. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>In terms of aquiring Hebrew language skills SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>ordering the Dor d'dor software. Have you SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>programs? Do you know if they are any good SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>page. They have two programs which I am c SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>called "Bracha builder" and the other calle SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>if I remember correctly both programs have SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>:) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I have seen the ads but have no direct or indi SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>either. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Ok. I will check out Ansche Chesed which is offe SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>and try to find out when that class is being offe SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>they are using. I will also ee if BJ is offerin SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>aer having a different teacher this time around t SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>teacher they used last time was a ditz!) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I like the text book "Prayerbook Hebrew Made Simp SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>will use that book as the text for the class and SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>think the class will be ok. (The teacher at BJ d SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>book. She just skipped around the Siddur Sim Sha SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>siddur) without any real methodology. :( SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Hopefully you will eventually find a class at the ri SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>place, with the right teacher, using the right book. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I sure hope so! But if I can't I may order the softwar SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>My schedule is so crazy and limited that it may be impo SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>find such a class. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>But you can schedule how you use your computer. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That's exactly what I was thinking. But it has to be the rig SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>software program. I already tried that using computer sofwar SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI> I bought a program called "Hebrew Tutor" that I found one da SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Computer World. It's put out by Parsons Technology. it is b SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>designed for Christian seminary students who want to be able SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>the Hebrew bible in the original. (They have a similiar prog SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>"Greek Tutor" designed to read the so called "New Testament" SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>original ancient Greek.) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>The problem with the "Hebrew Tutor" software is that it has t SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>of a vocubulary for me. It goes too fast and expects you too SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>too much. At the end of the program you read the Book of Rut SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>original Hebrew. Which would be nice. But for now, I just w SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>enough Hebrew literacy to read the siddur!!! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI> SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>But in the end, I may have no choice but to try the software. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>the software that I am considering purchasing SOUNDS on paper SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>looking for. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I haven't been able to call Anche Chesed this week because I SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>jury this week and am now waiting for a judge assignment on a SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That's the real problem with me taking classes--if I find a c SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I can fit into my schedule I almost always have to miss class SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>a trial gets in the way!!! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Good luck on your software search! SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't know of any other software except Siddur Surfer and Bracha SF>VI>SF>VI>Builder. I have searched Maven for possible links for more. SF>VI>SF>I would suggest the one best targeting basic prayers. SF>VI>That's the one I had in mind. Once I finish with this trial I will SF>VI>call out the software company and asked them to send me a catalog. I SF>VI>want to make sure that the Siddur Surfer software stands by itself and SF>VI>that you don't need to know the material in the Bracha Builder first. SF>VI>I also want to check and make sure that the software is available in SF>VI>Sephardic prouncation, since this is the prouncation that is now used SF>VI>in all nonO shuls. SF>My background and education was Orthodox and Sephardic was the way I was SF>taught. Then it really is too bad you don't live close to me, you would be my prefect tutor! :) Date: Friday, September 12, 1997 9:02am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 741227 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #741222, Reply to #741090, Reply to #741085, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>(Previous exchanges ommittte VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>As it stands now, I ca VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayers. But mostly i VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>really be nice to be a VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayers! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>ALL may not happen that q VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't expect it to happen VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Just keep your goal clear and r VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Hey, it is! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Reb Marcia said in her class at El VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>a vocubulary of 200 words to read VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That doesn't seem too much of a re VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>in a pitch to get the class member VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Her theory should cover most of the b VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Probably what she meant. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I got a mailing from Brooklyn Heights Sy VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>education schedule. They are offering a VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Hebrew three (reading comphresion) class VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>two. They will be giving Hebrew two in VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Aditionally, the teacher is different! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>longer teaching the class! :( :( VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>My Hebrew is not strong enough for me to VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>And I know the alpha beth and vowels wel VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>class would be repeative for me. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>In terms of aquiring Hebrew language ski VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>ordering the Dor d'dor software. Have y VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>programs? Do you know if they are any g VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>page. They have two programs which I a VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>called "Bracha builder" and the other ca VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>if I remember correctly both programs ha VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>:) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I have seen the ads but have no direct or i VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>either. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Ok. I will check out Ansche Chesed which is o VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>and try to find out when that class is being o VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>they are using. I will also ee if BJ is offe VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>aer having a different teacher this time aroun VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>teacher they used last time was a ditz!) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I like the text book "Prayerbook Hebrew Made S VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>will use that book as the text for the class a VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>think the class will be ok. (The teacher at B VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>book. She just skipped around the Siddur Sim VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>siddur) without any real methodology. :( VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Hopefully you will eventually find a class at the VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>place, with the right teacher, using the right bo VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I sure hope so! But if I can't I may order the soft VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>My schedule is so crazy and limited that it may be i VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>find such a class. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>But you can schedule how you use your computer. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That's exactly what I was thinking. But it has to be the VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>software program. I already tried that using computer sof VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI> I bought a program called "Hebrew Tutor" that I found one VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Computer World. It's put out by Parsons Technology. it i VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>designed for Christian seminary students who want to be ab VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>the Hebrew bible in the original. (They have a similiar p VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>"Greek Tutor" designed to read the so called "New Testame VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>original ancient Greek.) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>The problem with the "Hebrew Tutor" software is that it ha VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>of a vocubulary for me. It goes too fast and expects you VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>too much. At the end of the program you read the Book of VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>original Hebrew. Which would be nice. But for now, I jus VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>enough Hebrew literacy to read the siddur!!! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI> VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>But in the end, I may have no choice but to try the softwa VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>the software that I am considering purchasing SOUNDS on pa VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>looking for. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I haven't been able to call Anche Chesed this week because VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>jury this week and am now waiting for a judge assignment o VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That's the real problem with me taking classes--if I find VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I can fit into my schedule I almost always have to miss cl VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>a trial gets in the way!!! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Good luck on your software search! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't know of any other software except Siddur Surfer and Brac VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Builder. I have searched Maven for possible links for more. VI>SF>VI>SF>I would suggest the one best targeting basic prayers. VI>SF>VI>That's the one I had in mind. Once I finish with this trial I will VI>SF>VI>call out the software company and asked them to send me a catalog. I VI>SF>VI>want to make sure that the Siddur Surfer software stands by itself and VI>SF>VI>that you don't need to know the material in the Bracha Builder first. VI>SF>VI>I also want to check and make sure that the software is available in VI>SF>VI>Sephardic prouncation, since this is the prouncation that is now used VI>SF>VI>in all nonO shuls. VI>SF>My background and education was Orthodox and Sephardic was the way I was VI>SF>taught. VI>Then it really is too bad you don't live close to me, you would be my VI>prefect tutor! :) You would have enjoyed watching the members of my shul "correcting" my pronunciation during my bar-mitzvah. Date: Saturday, September 13, 1997 5:03am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 741242 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #741227, Reply to #741222, Reply to #741090, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>(Previous exchanges ommit SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>As it stands now, I SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayers. But mostl SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>really be nice to b SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayers! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>ALL may not happen tha SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't expect it to happ SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Just keep your goal clear an SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Hey, it is! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Reb Marcia said in her class at SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>a vocubulary of 200 words to re SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That doesn't seem too much of a SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>in a pitch to get the class mem SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Her theory should cover most of th SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Probably what she meant. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I got a mailing from Brooklyn Heights SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>education schedule. They are offerin SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Hebrew three (reading comphresion) cl SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>two. They will be giving Hebrew two SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Aditionally, the teacher is different SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>longer teaching the class! :( :( SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>My Hebrew is not strong enough for me SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>And I know the alpha beth and vowels SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>class would be repeative for me. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>In terms of aquiring Hebrew language SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>ordering the Dor d'dor software. Hav SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>programs? Do you know if they are an SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>page. They have two programs which SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>called "Bracha builder" and the other SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>if I remember correctly both programs SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>:) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I have seen the ads but have no direct o SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>either. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Ok. I will check out Ansche Chesed which i SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>and try to find out when that class is bein SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>they are using. I will also ee if BJ is o SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>aer having a different teacher this time ar SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>teacher they used last time was a ditz!) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I like the text book "Prayerbook Hebrew Mad SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>will use that book as the text for the clas SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>think the class will be ok. (The teacher a SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>book. She just skipped around the Siddur S SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>siddur) without any real methodology. :( SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Hopefully you will eventually find a class at SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>place, with the right teacher, using the right SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I sure hope so! But if I can't I may order the s SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>My schedule is so crazy and limited that it may b SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>find such a class. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>But you can schedule how you use your computer. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That's exactly what I was thinking. But it has to be t SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>software program. I already tried that using computer SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI> I bought a program called "Hebrew Tutor" that I found SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Computer World. It's put out by Parsons Technology. i SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>designed for Christian seminary students who want to be SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>the Hebrew bible in the original. (They have a similia SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>"Greek Tutor" designed to read the so called "New Test SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>original ancient Greek.) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>The problem with the "Hebrew Tutor" software is that it SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>of a vocubulary for me. It goes too fast and expects y SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>too much. At the end of the program you read the Book SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>original Hebrew. Which would be nice. But for now, I SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>enough Hebrew literacy to read the siddur!!! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI> SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>But in the end, I may have no choice but to try the sof SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>the software that I am considering purchasing SOUNDS on SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>looking for. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I haven't been able to call Anche Chesed this week beca SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>jury this week and am now waiting for a judge assignmen SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That's the real problem with me taking classes--if I fi SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I can fit into my schedule I almost always have to miss SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>a trial gets in the way!!! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Good luck on your software search! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't know of any other software except Siddur Surfer and B SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Builder. I have searched Maven for possible links for more. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I would suggest the one best targeting basic prayers. SF>VI>SF>VI>That's the one I had in mind. Once I finish with this trial I will SF>VI>SF>VI>call out the software company and asked them to send me a catalog. SF>VI>SF>VI>want to make sure that the Siddur Surfer software stands by itself SF>VI>SF>VI>that you don't need to know the material in the Bracha Builder firs SF>VI>SF>VI>I also want to check and make sure that the software is available i SF>VI>SF>VI>Sephardic prouncation, since this is the prouncation that is now us SF>VI>SF>VI>in all nonO shuls. SF>VI>SF>My background and education was Orthodox and Sephardic was the way I w SF>VI>SF>taught. SF>VI>Then it really is too bad you don't live close to me, you would be my SF>VI>prefect tutor! :) SF>You would have enjoyed watching the members of my shul "correcting" my SF>pronunciation during my bar-mitzvah. Yes, but that was when you were 13 years old, right? Date: Monday, September 15, 1997 11:31am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 741301 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #741242, Reply to #741227, Reply to #741222, R*) (2 replies) As are most bar-mitzvahs.....so? Date: Monday, September 15, 1997 9:38pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 741326 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #741301, Reply to #741242, Reply to #741227, R*) (1 reply) SF>As are most bar-mitzvahs.....so? My only point is that your ability to speak and read and understand Hebrew is better now than it was when you 13! :) Date: Tuesday, September 16, 1997 8:28am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 741336 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #741326, Reply to #741301, Reply to #741242, R*) (2 replies) VI>SF>As are most bar-mitzvahs.....so? VI>My only point is that your ability to speak and read and understand VI>Hebrew is better now than it was when you 13! :) My Hebrew was fine then. My point was that my Sephardic pronounciation was being corrected by the largely Ashkinazic speaking congregation. Date: Tuesday, September 16, 1997 6:43pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 741351 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #741301, Reply to #741242, Reply to #741227, R*) (1 reply) SF>As are most bar-mitzvahs.....so? Here I am finally wanting to read what you were referring to and you did not bother quoting. I haven't said anything until now regarding the quoting topic. However some of the messages that I simply have to end up skipping seem to be screenfuls of quotes and 2 lines of message that are addressing about 3 or 4 lines or only one paragraph out of 10 in what was quoted! Date: Tuesday, September 16, 1997 6:44pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 741352 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #741336, Reply to #741326, Reply to #741301, R*) (1 reply) SF>My Hebrew was fine then. My point was that my Sephardic pronounciation SF>was being corrected by the largely Ashkinazic speaking congregation. As far as they were concerned it was not fine. Date: Wednesday, September 17, 1997 7:05am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 741369 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #741336, Reply to #741326, Reply to #741301, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>As are most bar-mitzvahs.....so? SF>VI>My only point is that your ability to speak and read and understand SF>VI>Hebrew is better now than it was when you 13! :) SF>My Hebrew was fine then. My point was that my Sephardic pronounciation SF>was being corrected by the largely Ashkinazic speaking congregation. OHH....I get it now. :) So how is that you ended up with a Sephardic prounciation if you daven in a largely Askinazic shul? Date: Wednesday, September 17, 1997 12:01pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 741373 To: Kkid Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #741351, Reply to #741301, Reply to #741242, R*) (1 reply) KK>SF>As are most bar-mitzvahs.....so? KK>Here I am finally wanting to read what you were referring to and you did KK>not bother quoting. I haven't said anything until now regarding the KK>quoting topic. However some of the messages that I simply have to end up KK>skipping seem to be screenfuls of quotes and 2 lines of message that are KK>addressing about 3 or 4 lines or only one paragraph out of 10 in what KK>was quoted! Instead of criticizing you could have TP'd. Date: Wednesday, September 17, 1997 12:02pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 741374 To: Kkid Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #741352, Reply to #741336, Reply to #741326, R*) (1 reply) KK>SF>My Hebrew was fine then. My point was that my Sephardic pronounciation KK>SF>was being corrected by the largely Ashkinazic speaking congregation. KK>As far as they were concerned it was not fine. How so? Date: Wednesday, September 17, 1997 12:03pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 741375 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #741369, Reply to #741336, Reply to #741326, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>As are most bar-mitzvahs.....so? VI>SF>VI>My only point is that your ability to speak and read and understand VI>SF>VI>Hebrew is better now than it was when you 13! :) VI>SF>My Hebrew was fine then. My point was that my Sephardic pronounciation VI>SF>was being corrected by the largely Ashkinazic speaking congregation. VI>OHH....I get it now. :) VI>So how is that you ended up with a Sephardic prounciation if you daven VI>in a largely Askinazic shul? By attending a modern orthodox yeshiva day school with high zionist feelings and many Israeli instructors. Date: Friday, September 19, 1997 6:43am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 741493 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #741375, Reply to #741369, Reply to #741336, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>As are most bar-mitzvahs.....so? SF>VI>SF>VI>My only point is that your ability to speak and read and understand SF>VI>SF>VI>Hebrew is better now than it was when you 13! :) SF>VI>SF>My Hebrew was fine then. My point was that my Sephardic pronounciation SF>VI>SF>was being corrected by the largely Ashkinazic speaking congregation. SF>VI>OHH....I get it now. :) SF>VI>So how is that you ended up with a Sephardic prounciation if you daven SF>VI>in a largely Askinazic shul? SF>By attending a modern orthodox yeshiva day school with high zionist SF>feelings and many Israeli instructors. That's a good reason. :) Date: Friday, September 19, 1997 8:40am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 741498 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #741493, Reply to #741375, Reply to #741369, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>As are most bar-mitzvahs.....so? VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>My only point is that your ability to speak and read and underst VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Hebrew is better now than it was when you 13! :) VI>SF>VI>SF>My Hebrew was fine then. My point was that my Sephardic pronounciat VI>SF>VI>SF>was being corrected by the largely Ashkinazic speaking congregation VI>SF>VI>OHH....I get it now. :) VI>SF>VI>So how is that you ended up with a Sephardic prounciation if you daven VI>SF>VI>in a largely Askinazic shul? VI>SF>By attending a modern orthodox yeshiva day school with high zionist VI>SF>feelings and many Israeli instructors. VI>That's a good reason. :) When I first came home from first grade my grandfather kept correcting me until he learned the difference. By my bar-mitzvah he was my defender. Date: Friday, September 19, 1997 4:03pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 741504 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #741373, Reply to #741351, Reply to #741301, R*) SF>KK>Here I am finally wanting to read what you were referring to and you did SF>KK>not bother quoting. I haven't said anything until now regarding the SF>KK>quoting topic. However some of the messages that I simply have to end up SF>KK>skipping seem to be screenfuls of quotes and 2 lines of message that are SF>KK>addressing about 3 or 4 lines or only one paragraph out of 10 in what SF>KK>was quoted! SF>Instead of criticizing you could have TP'd. No Steve. That is not the point. It is a real waste of time to let a screen scroll through quotes galore and finally see a 5 word message which basically has something to do with the last sentence of the 5 screens that have just scrolled by. I did TP back, and all you were responding to was again...one or two sentences at the end of a longer message. If no one else criticizes, I may as well. I try to read most of what you and Vida, and the others write. However I get really upset watching screenfuls of quoted messages go by without any new message. Each time we write a message there is some blurb on screen about quoting. There is no real reason why most of your messages should be much shorter than the quoted part of the message you are responding to. I generally do not do that. And if you recall you wrote back to me at one point something to the fact that I conveniently left out part of the message. The only part of a message I leave out, is the part that has nothing to do with my reply! You could have tp'd as well that time. Date: Friday, September 19, 1997 4:06pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 741505 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #741374, Reply to #741352, Reply to #741336, R*) SF>KK>SF>My Hebrew was fine then. My point was that my Sephardic pronounciation SF>KK>SF>was being corrected by the largely Ashkinazic speaking congregation. SF>KK>As far as they were concerned it was not fine. SF>How so? They were correcting you? Were they not? There is a great difference between leading the congregation in prayer and reading for them from the Torah. If they are Sephardic then as far as they are concerned, an Ashkinazie is not reading the words correctly. An Ashkinazie will feel the same about their pronunciation. There are many T'shuvos regarding what one should do if their custom is different than the one of the shul they happen to be in. Date: Friday, September 19, 1997 6:33pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 741510 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #741498, Reply to #741493, Reply to #741375, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>As are most bar-mitzvahs.....so? SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>My only point is that your ability to speak and read and unde SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Hebrew is better now than it was when you 13! :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>My Hebrew was fine then. My point was that my Sephardic pronounc SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>was being corrected by the largely Ashkinazic speaking congregat SF>VI>SF>VI>OHH....I get it now. :) SF>VI>SF>VI>So how is that you ended up with a Sephardic prounciation if you da SF>VI>SF>VI>in a largely Askinazic shul? SF>VI>SF>By attending a modern orthodox yeshiva day school with high zionist SF>VI>SF>feelings and many Israeli instructors. SF>VI>That's a good reason. :) SF>When I first came home from first grade my grandfather kept correcting SF>me until he learned the difference. By my bar-mitzvah he was my SF>defender. Well at least you had one defender on your side! :) Date: Tuesday, August 26, 1997 4:54am Forum: Theology From: Dti Msg#: 741533 To: ** ALL ** Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Copy by Calvin, Reply to #739904, Reply to #739648, Rep*) (1 reply) SB>Thats good. Here's an interesting question I came across in a book by SB>Steven Hawking. Did time exist before the universe was created by God? SB>Personally, I would think it didnt, as God has no need of time in the SB>conventional sense. What do you think? If your god has no need of time, then you know the answer to your own question, do you not? Besides: as you posited this one thusly: Did time exist before the universe was created by God? ...and "universe" in the generally understood meaning refers to everything imaginable and unimaginable... then your god does not even need to have no need of time in the conventional sense to have no requirement for the existence of any concept or thing prior to the sudden generation of all things imaginable and unimaginable by its own will, right? Why ask? I already know the answer... -|--- --- * SLMR 2.0 * Cshy mnopoey? Dlmnwyt pysaklcko qizmplrinjrtgny! Date: Monday, September 22, 1997 11:49am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 741605 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #741510, Reply to #741498, Reply to #741493, R*) (1 reply) Once my grandfather and the rabbi reminded the congregents that was the way I was educated all became calm. Date: Monday, September 22, 1997 9:30pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 741641 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #741605, Reply to #741510, Reply to #741498, R*) (1 reply) SF>Once my grandfather and the rabbi reminded the congregents that was the SF>way I was educated all became calm. Well they should have also been reminded that the Sephardic accent is standard in modern Israel! :) Date: Tuesday, September 23, 1997 9:06am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 741647 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #741641, Reply to #741605, Reply to #741510, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>Once my grandfather and the rabbi reminded the congregents that was the VI>SF>way I was educated all became calm. VI>Well they should have also been reminded that the Sephardic accent is VI>standard in modern Israel! :) TYhat concept carries little weight with survivors of Europe. Date: Monday, June 16, 1997 9:18am Forum: Theology From: Jesse Msg#: 741659 To: ** ALL ** Re: Religious foibles (Copy by Calvin, Reply to #737453, Reply to #737157, Rep*) I can never understand how abstaining from certain foods can make on a better person in the eyes of the Creator. Yeah, during Biblical times when there was no proper way to store meat, and sanitation was bad, it made sense to abstain from certain foods that spoil quick. BUt today? I always laugh over the person who is very religious (Catholic not eating meat on Good Friday, Muslim not eating pork or dring alcohol, Mormon not dringking coffee, Jew keepig Kosher) who then goes out and breaks all the moral laws (adultery, stealing, etc.) Date: Wednesday, September 24, 1997 7:04am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 741668 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #741647, Reply to #741641, Reply to #741605, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>Once my grandfather and the rabbi reminded the congregents that was th SF>VI>SF>way I was educated all became calm. SF>VI>Well they should have also been reminded that the Sephardic accent is SF>VI>standard in modern Israel! :) SF>TYhat concept carries little weight with survivors of Europe. And it is also very understandable why Shoah survivors would cling to the Asheknanzic prouncation so strongly. Date: Wednesday, September 24, 1997 8:59am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 741671 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #741668, Reply to #741647, Reply to #741641, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>Once my grandfather and the rabbi reminded the congregents that was VI>SF>VI>SF>way I was educated all became calm. VI>SF>VI>Well they should have also been reminded that the Sephardic accent is VI>SF>VI>standard in modern Israel! :) VI>SF>TYhat concept carries little weight with survivors of Europe. VI>And it is also very understandable why Shoah survivors would cling to VI>the Asheknanzic prouncation so strongly. That played a part in their thinking. Over the years there were many disputes over which prayers to say when, especially during the holidays, with someone always saying, "back in my town we did.....". Date: Wednesday, September 24, 1997 6:53pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 741689 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #741671, Reply to #741668, Reply to #741647, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Once my grandfather and the rabbi reminded the congregents that SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>way I was educated all became calm. SF>VI>SF>VI>Well they should have also been reminded that the Sephardic accent SF>VI>SF>VI>standard in modern Israel! :) SF>VI>SF>TYhat concept carries little weight with survivors of Europe. SF>VI>And it is also very understandable why Shoah survivors would cling to SF>VI>the Asheknanzic prouncation so strongly. SF>That played a part in their thinking. Over the years there were many SF>disputes over which prayers to say when, especially during the holidays, SF>with someone always saying, "back in my town we did.....". That's because the customs differed from town to town and region to region. :) Date: Thursday, September 25, 1997 8:33am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 741698 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #741689, Reply to #741671, Reply to #741668, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Once my grandfather and the rabbi reminded the congregents th VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>way I was educated all became calm. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Well they should have also been reminded that the Sephardic acce VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>standard in modern Israel! :) VI>SF>VI>SF>TYhat concept carries little weight with survivors of Europe. VI>SF>VI>And it is also very understandable why Shoah survivors would cling to VI>SF>VI>the Asheknanzic prouncation so strongly. VI>SF>That played a part in their thinking. Over the years there were many VI>SF>disputes over which prayers to say when, especially during the holidays, VI>SF>with someone always saying, "back in my town we did.....". VI>That's because the customs differed from town to town and region to VI>region. :) Which made holiday services such a mix of customs and traditions. Date: Friday, September 26, 1997 7:57am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 741709 To: Steve Flur Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #741698, Reply to #741689, Reply to #741671, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Once my grandfather and the rabbi reminded the congregents SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>way I was educated all became calm. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Well they should have also been reminded that the Sephardic a SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>standard in modern Israel! :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>TYhat concept carries little weight with survivors of Europe. SF>VI>SF>VI>And it is also very understandable why Shoah survivors would cling SF>VI>SF>VI>the Asheknanzic prouncation so strongly. SF>VI>SF>That played a part in their thinking. Over the years there were many SF>VI>SF>disputes over which prayers to say when, especially during the holiday SF>VI>SF>with someone always saying, "back in my town we did.....". SF>VI>That's because the customs differed from town to town and region to SF>VI>region. :) SF>Which made holiday services such a mix of customs and traditions. And richer! :) Date: Friday, September 26, 1997 8:40am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 741711 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #741709, Reply to #741698, Reply to #741689, R*) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Once my grandfather and the rabbi reminded the congrege VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>way I was educated all became calm. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Well they should have also been reminded that the Sephardi VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>standard in modern Israel! :) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>TYhat concept carries little weight with survivors of Europe. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>And it is also very understandable why Shoah survivors would cli VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>the Asheknanzic prouncation so strongly. VI>SF>VI>SF>That played a part in their thinking. Over the years there were man VI>SF>VI>SF>disputes over which prayers to say when, especially during the holi VI>SF>VI>SF>with someone always saying, "back in my town we did.....". VI>SF>VI>That's because the customs differed from town to town and region to VI>SF>VI>region. :) VI>SF>Which made holiday services such a mix of customs and traditions. VI>And richer! :) And great dramatic show when there was disagreement. Date: Wednesday, October 1, 1997 1:31pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 741786 To: Vida Re: FRUM TRANSSEXUAL (1 reply) An interesting exchange recently on the frumgays list was initiated by a male to female transsexual asking the opinions of other on how to remain frum and should they follow her previous male obligations or her now female obligations. This issue has no obvious rabbinic source to fall back on. Date: Friday, October 3, 1997 7:04am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 741795 To: Steve Flur Re: FRUM TRANSSEXUAL (Reply to #741786) (1 reply) SF>An interesting exchange recently on the frumgays list was initiated by a SF>male to female transsexual asking the opinions of other on how to remain SF>frum and should they follow her previous male obligations or her now SF>female obligations. This issue has no obvious rabbinic source to fall SF>back on. I think the answer is obvious. If you believe that there is any validity to male obligations as opposed to female obligations, then he should follow the male obligations. This person was born male. Therefore he is male. A sugeon castrating him and creating an artifical vulva can not transform him into a female. I have very strong feelings against transexual operations. I think it reinforces traditional sex sterotypes, by surgically altering nonconforming people rather than challenging the sterotypes. It is reactionary, not revolutionary. Date: Monday, October 6, 1997 9:08am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 741820 To: Vida Re: FRUM TRANSSEXUAL (Reply to #741795, Reply to #741786) (1 reply) VI>SF>An interesting exchange recently on the frumgays list was initiated by a VI>SF>male to female transsexual asking the opinions of other on how to remain VI>SF>frum and should they follow her previous male obligations or her now VI>SF>female obligations. This issue has no obvious rabbinic source to fall VI>SF>back on. VI>I think the answer is obvious. If you believe that there is any VI>validity to male obligations as opposed to female obligations, then he VI>should follow the male obligations. VI>This person was born male. Therefore he is male. A sugeon castrating VI>him and creating an artifical vulva can not transform him into a female. VI>I have very strong feelings against transexual operations. I think it VI>reinforces traditional sex sterotypes, by surgically altering VI>nonconforming people rather than challenging the sterotypes. It is VI>reactionary, not revolutionary. Is this negative feeling against the transgendered based upon any personal contact? Date: Tuesday, October 7, 1997 6:49am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 741832 To: Steve Flur Re: FRUM TRANSSEXUAL (Reply to #741820, Reply to #741795, Reply to #741786) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>An interesting exchange recently on the frumgays list was initiated by SF>VI>SF>male to female transsexual asking the opinions of other on how to rema SF>VI>SF>frum and should they follow her previous male obligations or her now SF>VI>SF>female obligations. This issue has no obvious rabbinic source to fall SF>VI>SF>back on. SF>VI>I think the answer is obvious. If you believe that there is any SF>VI>validity to male obligations as opposed to female obligations, then he SF>VI>should follow the male obligations. SF>VI>This person was born male. Therefore he is male. A sugeon castrating SF>VI>him and creating an artifical vulva can not transform him into a female. SF>VI>I have very strong feelings against transexual operations. I think it SF>VI>reinforces traditional sex sterotypes, by surgically altering SF>VI>nonconforming people rather than challenging the sterotypes. It is SF>VI>reactionary, not revolutionary. SF>Is this negative feeling against the transgendered based upon any SF>personal contact? No, and no personal contact is necessary. It is a political analysis. I have no problem with a person with male genitilia assuming 'female' roles. Nor do I have any problem with a male dressing in women's clothing. It is the idea of SURGICALLY altering a body that I have a problem with. As a feminist, I wish to smash the entire idea of 'male' roles vs. 'female' roles. The entire idea of transexual surgery is to alter a body so that a person who doesn't fit the traditional 'male'/'female' dictomy better fits into the traditional role models. Date: Tuesday, October 7, 1997 8:53am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 741834 To: Vida Re: FRUM TRANSSEXUAL (Reply to #741832, Reply to #741820, Reply to #741795, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>An interesting exchange recently on the frumgays list was initiated VI>SF>VI>SF>male to female transsexual asking the opinions of other on how to r VI>SF>VI>SF>frum and should they follow her previous male obligations or her no VI>SF>VI>SF>female obligations. This issue has no obvious rabbinic source to fa VI>SF>VI>SF>back on. VI>SF>VI>I think the answer is obvious. If you believe that there is any VI>SF>VI>validity to male obligations as opposed to female obligations, then he VI>SF>VI>should follow the male obligations. VI>SF>VI>This person was born male. Therefore he is male. A sugeon castrating VI>SF>VI>him and creating an artifical vulva can not transform him into a femal VI>SF>VI>I have very strong feelings against transexual operations. I think it VI>SF>VI>reinforces traditional sex sterotypes, by surgically altering VI>SF>VI>nonconforming people rather than challenging the sterotypes. It is VI>SF>VI>reactionary, not revolutionary. VI>SF>Is this negative feeling against the transgendered based upon any VI>SF>personal contact? VI>No, and no personal contact is necessary. It is a political analysis. VI>I have no problem with a person with male genitilia assuming 'female' VI>roles. Nor do I have any problem with a male dressing in women's VI>clothing. It is the idea of SURGICALLY altering a body that I have a VI>problem with. VI>As a feminist, I wish to smash the entire idea of 'male' roles vs. VI>'female' roles. VI>The entire idea of transexual surgery is to alter a body so that a VI>person who doesn't fit the traditional 'male'/'female' dictomy better VI>fits into the traditional role models. Why should the psychological and psychosocial wellbeing of a person be decided upon based upon politics of any kind? Date: Wednesday, October 8, 1997 6:55am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 741869 To: Steve Flur Re: FRUM TRANSSEXUAL (Reply to #741834, Reply to #741832, Reply to #741820, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>I have no problem with a person with male genitilia assuming 'female' SF>VI>roles. Nor do I have any problem with a male dressing in women's SF>VI>clothing. It is the idea of SURGICALLY altering a body that I have a SF>VI>problem with. SF>VI>As a feminist, I wish to smash the entire idea of 'male' roles vs. SF>VI>'female' roles. SF>VI>The entire idea of transexual surgery is to alter a body so that a SF>VI>person who doesn't fit the traditional 'male'/'female' dictomy better SF>VI>fits into the traditional role models. SF>Why should the psychological and psychosocial wellbeing of a person be SF>decided upon based upon politics of any kind? I don't buy the argument that COSMETIC SURGERY can contribute to the psychological or psychosocial wellbeing of a person. A person should do what he/she wants to do with the body he/she was born with. Date: Wednesday, October 8, 1997 9:31am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 741872 To: Vida Re: FRUM TRANSSEXUAL (Reply to #741869, Reply to #741834, Reply to #741832, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>I have no problem with a person with male genitilia assuming 'female' VI>SF>VI>roles. Nor do I have any problem with a male dressing in women's VI>SF>VI>clothing. It is the idea of SURGICALLY altering a body that I have a VI>SF>VI>problem with. VI>SF>VI>As a feminist, I wish to smash the entire idea of 'male' roles vs. VI>SF>VI>'female' roles. VI>SF>VI>The entire idea of transexual surgery is to alter a body so that a VI>SF>VI>person who doesn't fit the traditional 'male'/'female' dictomy better VI>SF>VI>fits into the traditional role models. VI>SF>Why should the psychological and psychosocial wellbeing of a person be VI>SF>decided upon based upon politics of any kind? VI>I don't buy the argument that COSMETIC SURGERY can contribute to the VI>psychological or psychosocial wellbeing of a person. A person should VI>do what he/she wants to do with the body he/she was born with. And your opinion is based upon what? Date: Thursday, October 9, 1997 7:06am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 741876 To: Steve Flur Re: FRUM TRANSSEXUAL (Reply to #741872, Reply to #741869, Reply to #741834, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>I have no problem with a person with male genitilia assuming 'femal SF>VI>SF>VI>roles. Nor do I have any problem with a male dressing in women's SF>VI>SF>VI>clothing. It is the idea of SURGICALLY altering a body that I have SF>VI>SF>VI>problem with. SF>VI>SF>VI>As a feminist, I wish to smash the entire idea of 'male' roles vs. SF>VI>SF>VI>'female' roles. SF>VI>SF>VI>The entire idea of transexual surgery is to alter a body so that a SF>VI>SF>VI>person who doesn't fit the traditional 'male'/'female' dictomy bett SF>VI>SF>VI>fits into the traditional role models. SF>VI>SF>Why should the psychological and psychosocial wellbeing of a person be SF>VI>SF>decided upon based upon politics of any kind? SF>VI>I don't buy the argument that COSMETIC SURGERY can contribute to the SF>VI>psychological or psychosocial wellbeing of a person. A person should SF>VI>do what he/she wants to do with the body he/she was born with. SF>And your opinion is based upon what? Does it have to be based on anything Steve? I take my positions. I tell you how I feel. I resent that you seem to think that it is necessary for me to justify my belief systems. Moreover, I believe that my position is a perfectly logical, prefectly coherent position. After all, transexual operations have only been preformed for 40, 50 years. So obviously people who did not conform to traditional gender roles managed to survive for thousands of years before human technology allowed us to manipulate the OUTWARD appearance of secondary sex characteristics. Maybe you can explain to me how there can be such a thing as a frum transsexual. How can you be religious and believe that G*d created you the wrong sex? Isn't that totally contradictory to the notion of an omipotent being? Date: Thursday, October 9, 1997 8:18am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 741877 To: Vida Re: FRUM TRANSSEXUAL (Reply to #741876, Reply to #741872, Reply to #741869, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I have no problem with a person with male genitilia assuming 'fe VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>roles. Nor do I have any problem with a male dressing in women' VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>clothing. It is the idea of SURGICALLY altering a body that I h VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>problem with. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>As a feminist, I wish to smash the entire idea of 'male' roles v VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>'female' roles. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>The entire idea of transexual surgery is to alter a body so that VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>person who doesn't fit the traditional 'male'/'female' dictomy b VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>fits into the traditional role models. VI>SF>VI>SF>Why should the psychological and psychosocial wellbeing of a person VI>SF>VI>SF>decided upon based upon politics of any kind? VI>SF>VI>I don't buy the argument that COSMETIC SURGERY can contribute to the VI>SF>VI>psychological or psychosocial wellbeing of a person. A person should VI>SF>VI>do what he/she wants to do with the body he/she was born with. VI>SF>And your opinion is based upon what? VI>Does it have to be based on anything Steve? I take my positions. I VI>tell you how I feel. I resent that you seem to think that it is VI>necessary for me to justify my belief systems. Moreover, I believe VI>that my position is a perfectly logical, prefectly coherent position. VI>After all, transexual operations have only been preformed for 40, 50 VI>years. So obviously people who did not conform to traditional gender VI>roles managed to survive for thousands of years before human technology VI>allowed us to manipulate the OUTWARD appearance of secondary sex VI>characteristics. VI>Maybe you can explain to me how there can be such a thing as a frum VI>transsexual. How can you be religious and believe that G*d created you VI>the wrong sex? Isn't that totally contradictory to the notion of an VI>omipotent being? When a self identified member of the LGBT communities rejects out of hand the T portion of the community, I as another member of the community have both the right and obligation to question why you have done so. I find it ironic that on the frumgays list this transsexual received far more support than from a "liberal non-orthodox". Date: Friday, October 10, 1997 6:54am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 741893 To: Steve Flur Re: FRUM TRANSSEXUAL (Reply to #741877, Reply to #741876, Reply to #741872, R*) (1 reply) (Previous exchanges ommited) SF>VI>Maybe you can explain to me how there can be such a thing as a frum SF>VI>transsexual. How can you be religious and believe that G*d created you SF>VI>the wrong sex? Isn't that totally contradictory to the notion of an SF>VI>omipotent being? SF>When a self identified member of the LGBT communities rejects out of SF>hand the T portion of the community, I as another member of the SF>community have both the right and obligation to question why you have SF>done so. I find it ironic that on the frumgays list this transsexual SF>received far more support than from a "liberal non-orthodox". I don't think it is fair for you to say that I reject out of hand the T portion of the G/L/B community. I have been very clear in saying that I have no problem with a male assuming the traditional female role and dressing as a woman. Likewise, I have no problem with a female assuming the traditional male role and dressing as a man. What I do have a problem with is SURGICALLY altering the secondary characteristics of a person. I think it is a person should do whatever he or she wants to do with the body he/she was born with. In other words, I say change the ROLES, not change the body. That hardly makes me nonsupportive of a person who can't conform to traditional gender role assignments, IMHO. And you still haven't answered my question, how can a person be frum and a transexual? Don't you see the logical inconsitency in such an indiviudal? Date: Friday, October 10, 1997 10:28am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 741897 To: Vida Re: FRUM TRANSSEXUAL (Reply to #741893, Reply to #741877, Reply to #741876, R*) VI>(Previous exchanges ommited) VI>SF>VI>Maybe you can explain to me how there can be such a thing as a frum VI>SF>VI>transsexual. How can you be religious and believe that G*d created you VI>SF>VI>the wrong sex? Isn't that totally contradictory to the notion of an VI>SF>VI>omipotent being? VI>SF>When a self identified member of the LGBT communities rejects out of VI>SF>hand the T portion of the community, I as another member of the VI>SF>community have both the right and obligation to question why you have VI>SF>done so. I find it ironic that on the frumgays list this transsexual VI>SF>received far more support than from a "liberal non-orthodox". VI>I don't think it is fair for you to say that I reject out of hand the T VI>portion of the G/L/B community. I have been very clear in saying that VI>I have no problem with a male assuming the traditional female role and VI>dressing as a woman. Likewise, I have no problem with a female VI>assuming the traditional male role and dressing as a man. VI>What I do have a problem with is SURGICALLY altering the secondary VI>characteristics of a person. I think it is a person should do whatever VI>he or she wants to do with the body he/she was born with. In other VI>words, I say change the ROLES, not change the body. That hardly makes VI>me nonsupportive of a person who can't conform to traditional gender VI>role assignments, IMHO. VI>And you still haven't answered my question, how can a person be frum VI>and a transexual? Don't you see the logical inconsitency in such an VI>indiviudal? FYI-prior to any sex change operation is years of counseling and months of transgender dressing before determining that surgery is both required and beneficial. On your other point I guess being frum and gay as well as being frum and transexual may appear contradictory, however, those of us who are have conciously chose that we will do our best to maintain our beliefs and practices despite the hardships. Date: Wednesday, October 15, 1997 1:31am Forum: Theology From: Dti Msg#: 741951 To: Dti Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #741533, Copy by Calvin, Reply to #739904, Rep*) (2 replies) DT>SB>Thats good. Here's an interesting question I came across in a book by DT>SB>Steven Hawking. Did time exist before the universe was created by God? DT>SB>Personally, I would think it didnt, as God has no need of time in the DT>SB>conventional sense. What do you think? DT> If your god has no need of time, then you know the answer to your own DT>question, do you not? Besides: as you posited this one thusly: DT> Did time exist before the universe was created by God? DT> ...and "universe" in the generally understood meaning refers to DT>everything imaginable and unimaginable... then your god does not even DT>need to have no need of time in the conventional sense to have no DT>requirement for the existence of any concept or thing prior to the DT>sudden generation of all things imaginable and unimaginable by its own DT>will, right? Why ask? I already know the answer... -|--- Who is SB? That was who I wrote this one to, not 'ALL'... SB, you out there somewhere? Hellooo.... --- * SLMR 2.0 * Am I REALLY responsible for someone who refuses to eat? Date: Wednesday, October 15, 1997 7:00am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 741966 To: ** ALL ** Re: MLK/Heschel Some of you might be interested in this post. I have slightly edited it, taking out, among other things, the appeal for money! >From Rabbi Arthur Green & Rabbi Arthur Waskow: Dear Chevra, With the High Holy Days past, as we begin the "work" of Sukkot it may also be a good time to focus on planning for Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel's 25th yohrzeit. HIs yohrzeit (18 Tevet) will fall on Friday, January 16, 1998. That date falls very close to the date of celebration of Martin Luther King's Birthday on Monday, January 19. This confluence is amazingly appropriate. It brings together perhaps the two wisest American religious leaders of the past generation who fused a sense of the full presence of God in their lives with a sense of God's call for healing American society. To the Jewish community, this timing calls us not to mere nostalgia but to explore- how Rabbi Heschel continues to teach us - x To renew our own sense of "radical amazement" with the world. x To seek for Jewish spiritual meaning in our daily work and study. x To renew Shabbat as a constant challenge to techno-addiction. x To see social action as he saw the Selma March - "I felt my legs were praying." So the Shalom Center has begun acting as a catalyst for celebration of this 25th yohrzeit in synagogues, seminaries, Hillels, and similar centers of Jewish religious and spiritual life across the country. We welcome you to join in that process. Not just passively: You can become part of the Council for the Heschel Yohrzeit, whose Chair is Dr. Susannah Heschel. More than 50 Rabbis and scholars have already joined the Council. By joining, you can help us to help you - with materials you can use in your own way: - study guides, a list of appropriate speakers and readings, suggestions for tikkun olam programs and contacts, etc.. Please return the write-back coupon at the end of this letter to let us know what materials you most need. And in turn we will need your support to help us prepare them. As an example of a possible program, you might consider setting aside the Shabbat of January 16-17 in Rabbi Heschel's memory, with Friday night and Shabbat morning services and afternoon Torah-study that addresses specific passages of his work. On Sunday January 18, or both Sunday and Monday, you might consider workshops that draw on Rabbi Heschel's teachings and on the continuation of them in various ways -- e.g. x The continuation of his concern for women's equality into the emergence of Jewish feminism; x The continuation of his work for peace and human rights; x The continuation of his approach to Shabbat as tikkun olam, both in deepening focus on meaningful observance of Shabbat and in the emergence of a Judaism committed to protect and heal the earth; x The continuation of his commitment to Hassidism both through historical research on it and through the growing practice in new circles of Jewish life, of Hassidic approaches to meditation and prayer; x The continuation of his concern for liturgical renewal in much of the creative explosion of new liturgies in many arenas of Jewish life; x The continuation of his work in Black-Jewish relations; x The continuation of his commitment to interreligious dialogue - not only with Christian but also Muslim, Buddhist, and other communities; x The continuation of his commitment to enrich Jewish spirituality in the ways we teach our youth, our adults, and our rabbinical students; Sunday, January 18, could culminate in a much larger evening event in which representatives of Rabbi Heschel's legacy and of Dr. King's join in a public exploration of their meaning today, both spiritual and social. Perhaps on that Sunday or Monday, Jews could join with others in a public action focused on some aspect of Dr. King's and Rabbi Heschel's teachings so that our arms and legs could also pray - perhaps joining in a home- building project, or creating a special fund for grass-roots investment in minority enterprises, or acting on behalf of immigrants, the poor, or the wounded earth. How do we take Heschel into public space, where he took himself so often in the '60s? We hope that in some places across the country, there can be a public action/ observance called "Our Legs Are Praying: Again We March with King and Heschel for Justice in America." We can make available to you as a key symbol of this observance the well-known photograph of Rabbi Heschel marching at Selma alongside the Rev. Martin Luther King, and of course the title we suggest draws on Rabbi Heschel's remark when he returned home from that march: "I felt as if my legs were praying." We are ready to create posters and flyers using these icons. We hope to make "Our Legs Are Praying" an annual event in as many Jewish communities as possible, connected with a continuing memorial to Rabbi Heschel and observance of his Yohrzeit. In this first year, we will encourage "Our Legs Are Praying" events to focus on questions of jobs, welfare, poverty, work, economic justice, and related issues of race - all seen from a spiritual perspective. You can take an important part in carrying Rabbi Heschel's lifework forward to the next generation of the Jewish people. Becoming a member of the Council for the Heschel Yohrzeit means joining in a commitment, a covenant. To do this, we need your help. Please use the write-back form below to tell us your own needs and plans. And please help us with the resources - money and ideas - we will need to help you bring the teachings of Rabbi Heschel into the next generation. Shalom, Rabbi Arthur Green Rabbi Arthur Waskow Date: Wednesday, October 15, 1997 7:08am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 741969 To: Dti Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #741951, Reply to #741533, Copy by Calvin, Rep*) (1 reply) Date: Wednesday, October 15, 1997 7:09am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 741970 To: Dti Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #741951, Reply to #741533, Copy by Calvin, Rep*) (1 reply) DT>DT>SB>Thats good. Here's an interesting question I came across in a book by DT>DT>SB>Steven Hawking. Did time exist before the universe was created by God? DT>DT>SB>Personally, I would think it didnt, as God has no need of time in the DT>DT>SB>conventional sense. What do you think? DT>DT> If your god has no need of time, then you know the answer to your own DT>DT>question, do you not? Besides: as you posited this one thusly: DT>DT> Did time exist before the universe was created by God? DT>DT> ...and "universe" in the generally understood meaning refers to DT>DT>everything imaginable and unimaginable... then your god does not even DT>DT>need to have no need of time in the conventional sense to have no DT>DT>requirement for the existence of any concept or thing prior to the DT>DT>sudden generation of all things imaginable and unimaginable by its own DT>DT>will, right? Why ask? I already know the answer... -|--- DT> Who is SB? That was who I wrote this one to, not 'ALL'... SB, you out DT>there somewhere? Hellooo.... DT>--- Hi Adam! Actually this message came out on the board as to and from yourself! :) Date: Wednesday, October 15, 1997 7:51pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 741985 To: ** ALL ** Re: More on Heschel This was update was posted by Arthur Waskow. I am reprinting it here because Arthur says, not to surprisingly, that my schul B'nai Jeshurun is going to be one of the places to observe the Heschel/MLK connection. Arthur will be coming to participate in the observance to BJ, as we lovingly call my schul. I haven't heard anything yet about the Heschel/MLK observances at BJ--I am sure I will hear in December though! When I hear more, I will let you guys know. Arthur Waskow's post appears below. Dear Chevra, "Why study Heschel?" some people have asked me. Here is an example, just a hint of the unexpected and serious way in which his Hassidic-Prophetic mind worked: "I interpret the young people's escape to drugs as coming from their driving desire to experience moments of exaltation. . . . The classsical form of exaltation is worship. . . . But exaltation is gone from the synagogue [and] from the church. . . . Our life thus devours the wisdom of religious tradition without deriving from it sources of renewal and uplift. . . . The new witnesses for a revival of the spirit in America may well turn out to be those poor miserable men and women who are victims of the narcotics epidemic. If we will but . . . try to understand their misguided search for exaltation, we can begin the task of turning curse into blessing." ("In Search of Exaltation," pp. 227-229, Moral Grandeur and Spiritual Audacity , Susannah Heschel, ed. (Farrar Straus Giroux, 1996) This memo describes only a few of the existing plans for celebration of Abraham Joshua Heschel's 25th yohrzeit, and also includes some suggestions for study. For more information and materials, please write The Shalom Center to become a member of the Council for the Heschel Yohrzeit. x In New York, at B'nai Jeshurun, the yohrzeit weekend observance will be the initiating event sponsored by the new Marshall Meyer Institute, in memory of one of Heschel's most illustrious students. It will include speeches (Susannah Heschel, Arthur Waskow, among others), workshops, etc. x In Vancouver, there will be a month-long study of Rabbi Heschel's work this November, in preparation for the yohrzeit. x In Boston, several different congregations will have as a speaker Edward K. Kaplan of Brandeis, author of one very useful and attractive book on Heschel and of a full biography on which he is working. x In Philadelphia, the Germantown Jewish Center is having as a speaker Rev. Richard Fernandez, who was the exec of Clergy and Laity Concerned About Vietnam when both Rabbi Heschel and Dr, King were among its leaders. And the Jewish Community Relations Council is considering a public vigil urging action to increase jobs and make a living wage more prevalent. x In Seattle, on Yom Kippur, Congregation Eitz Or compared Heschel's deep prophetic engagement with Jonah's refusal to engage. They are planning a pre-Shabbat dinner on the yohrzeit weekend, to raise money for a group that works with homeless people. x In Minneapolis, the JCRC is working with the African-American community to prepare an event for January. x In Cleveland, Case Western Reserve University will hold a major campus and community event at the end of February, in which Susannah Heschel and I will speak. And so it goes. Many creative ideas. In my own work toward the Yohrzeit, I have found two books invaluable: One is the collection of Heschel essays and talks that Susie Heschel edited, entitled Moral Grandeur and Spiritual Audacity (Farrar Straus Giroux), in which are some amazing pieces. Among my own favorites are astonishing comments - both prescient and radical -on the origins of drug addiction and war and on the meaning of prayer. Susie Heschel's own introduction is a warm and eloquent description of how Heschel carried his sense of the sacred-in-the-everyday into a loving family life. The other book is Edward K. Kaplan's Holiness in Words (SUNY Press, Albany), which looks at many of Heschel's writings with an eye to how his writing itself was crafted to imbue the reader with a sense of holiness. Kaplan has many wonderful quotes from Heschel, many of them of great use as you craft your own sermons and study guides for adult education. But even more important, Kaplan appends a study guide to Heschel's work, tracking the various aspects of his world-view in such a way as to provide an adult-education course that you can easily tailor to your own style and interests. ith blessings that your year be filled with radical amazement at the works of God, deeply responsible action in the world, and joyful rest - Rabbi Arthur Waskow You can take an important part in carrying Rabbi Heschel's lifework forward to the next generation of the Jewish people. Becoming a member of the Council for the Heschel Yohrzeit means joining in a commitment, a covenant. To do this, we need your help. Please use the write-back form below to tell us your own needs and plans. And please help us with the resources - money and ideas - we will need to help you bring the teachings of Rabbi Heschel into the next generation. Shalom, Rabbi Arthur Green Rabbi Arthur Waskow ___________________________________________ For more information, write The Shalom Center, 7318 Germantown Ave., Philadelphia, PA 19119 Date: Friday, October 17, 1997 7:32am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 742008 To: ** ALL ** Re: Help "The Book of Blessings"! This appeared on one of my Jewish e mail lists. I want to encourage you all to write to Harper San Francisco and urge them to make this book available in paperbook. For those who are not familiar with this book, this is a new Jewish feminist siddur which reworks the traditional prayers into equalitarian G*d language--BOTH the English and the Hebrew have been reworked. A very beautiful siddur to be used IN CONJENCTION with the more traditional siddurim. The annoucement appears below. -------------------- URGENT In just a few days, Harper San Francisco will decide whether or not to publish The Book of Blessings in paperback. In hardcover, this revolutionary prayer book's influence has already been felt internationally. Some synagogues and universities have adopted the texts for inclusion in their services and studies. The blessings have been set to music, engraved on pendants, included on inspirational cards for cancer survivors, and a Manhattan syngagogue has etched a passage from the book on one of their decorative stained glass windows. Last December on National AIDS Awareness Day, a prayer from The Book of Blessings was read at the National Cathedral in Washington, DC. If a $50.00 hardcover can reach so many people this way, imagine what a more reasonably priced paperback could do. At this point, Harper San Francisco is wavering. Their publishing decisions are firmly based on the bottom line, and they don't think a paperback edition would sell. They are basing this on the sales of the pricey hardcover, which are respectable, but not stellar. I believe The Book of Blessings would sell extremely well in paper. As a lower-priced trade paperback, The Book of Blessings would finally be able to reach the mass audience it so richly deserves, and Harper San Francisco would have a solid backlist title for years to come. If no paperback edition is published, the hardcover will slowly become less and less available until it finally disappears from bookstore shelves and goes out of print. I hope you'll agree that we can't let that happen. Here's how you can help. Write a letter or send a fax on your letterhead to Harper San Francisco and let them know how you feel about the book, how you've used it in your classrooms and homes, at your synagogues and churches, and why you'd like to see it in paperback. If you're a bookseller, please let them know that you would be able to sell a less expensive quality paperback of The Book of Blessings in much greater numbers than the hardcover. If you're a teacher, let them know that at a lower price, you would be able to order several copies for your classes, rather than the one or two you may have on reserve at the library. If you're a rabbi, let them know that a lower-priced paperback would allow you to use the book as a primary text in your services, and that you would be able to order multiple copies for your congregants. Please address a copies of your letter to both: Mark Chimsky, Editorial Director Diane Gedymin, Publisher Harper San Francisco 353 Sacramento Street, Suite 500 San Francisco, CA 94111 FAX: 415-477-4444 and be sure to send a "blind copy" to Marcia Falk 2905 Benvenue Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 FAX: 510-548-1736 Date: Sunday, October 19, 1997 6:23am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 742030 To: ** ALL ** Re: Where's Steve Flur? (2 replies) What the hell is going on around here? Where's Steve Flur and Kkid? I wrote a message to Steve F and he hasn't responded in @ a week! Date: Sunday, October 19, 1997 9:08am Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 742031 To: Vida Re: Where's Steve Flur? (Reply to #742030) (1 reply) VI>What the hell is going on around here? Where's Steve Flur and Kkid? I VI>wrote a message to Steve F and he hasn't responded in @ a week! I'm here :-) Date: Monday, October 20, 1997 6:46am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 742042 To: Kkid Re: Where's Steve Flur? (Reply to #742031, Reply to #742030) (1 reply) KK>VI>What the hell is going on around here? Where's Steve Flur and Kkid? I KK>VI>wrote a message to Steve F and he hasn't responded in @ a week! KK>I'm here :-) Good to hear from you! Surely you must have something to say about some of the things I have been posting! It's so quiet around here, I think I am going to scream! :( Date: Monday, October 20, 1997 9:01am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 742051 To: Vida Re: Where's Steve Flur? (Reply to #742030) (1 reply) VI>What the hell is going on around here? Where's Steve Flur and Kkid? I VI>wrote a message to Steve F and he hasn't responded in @ a week! You forgot about Succhot! Date: Monday, October 20, 1997 6:27pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 742052 To: Vida Re: Where's Steve Flur? (Reply to #742042, Reply to #742031, Reply to #742030) (1 reply) VI>Good to hear from you! Surely you must have something to say about VI>some of the things I have been posting! VI>It's so quiet around here, I think I am going to scream! :( What you write and the way you write it does not generally lend itself to disagreement :-) Date: Monday, October 20, 1997 7:47pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 742055 To: Steve Flur Re: Where's Steve Flur? (Reply to #742051, Reply to #742030) (1 reply) SF>VI>What the hell is going on around here? Where's Steve Flur and Kkid? I SF>VI>wrote a message to Steve F and he hasn't responded in @ a week! SF>You forgot about Succhot! True enough! Sorry! I was just getting worried about you. :) Date: Monday, October 20, 1997 7:48pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 742056 To: Kkid Re: Where's Steve Flur? (Reply to #742052, Reply to #742042, Reply to #742031, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>Good to hear from you! Surely you must have something to say about KK>VI>some of the things I have been posting! KK>VI>It's so quiet around here, I think I am going to scream! :( KK>What you write and the way you write it does not generally lend itself KK>to disagreement :-) I find that hard to believe! As an Orthodox Jew, surely some of the stuff I am writing has to be against your grain! Date: Tuesday, October 21, 1997 2:53am Forum: Theology From: Dti Msg#: 742067 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #741969, Reply to #741951, Reply to #741533, C*) (1 reply) I am replying to a blank post you sent me to reply to. Consider this a place marker if there was some diff in your xmittal of the Thing To Be Replied To with no regrets and the usual good wishes... --- * SLMR 2.0 * Cshy mnopoey? Dlmnwyt pysaklcko qizmplrinjrtgny! Date: Tuesday, October 21, 1997 2:53am Forum: Theology From: Dti Msg#: 742068 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #741970, Reply to #741951, Reply to #741533, C*) (1 reply) VI>DT> Who is SB? That was who I wrote this one to, not 'ALL'... SB, you out VI>DT>there somewhere? Hellooo.... VI>Hi Adam! VI>Actually this message came out on the board as to and from yourself! VI>:) I figged it would, I had no way of backtracking my response directly to whomever the original typist running here under a tag abbreviatable to SB would read it all and recognize the quotename and gimme some words to further digest. I had no one else to reply to, as Sam Browne or Sid Barracks or Simple Bleve or whatever was not an active recent enough hit to make it into my SLMR packet at the time I typed the above whatchoo replied to up there thing... --- * SLMR 2.0 * Sleep is Not Legal Geneva Convention plus Other Laws Date: Tuesday, October 21, 1997 6:45am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 742082 To: Dti Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #742067, Reply to #741969, Reply to #741951, R*) (1 reply) DT> I am replying to a blank post you sent me to reply to. Consider this DT>a place marker if there was some diff in your xmittal of the Thing To Be DT>Replied To with no regrets and the usual good wishes... DT>--- Hi Adam! I still can't figure out how I managed to send a blank message in the first place. :) Date: Tuesday, October 21, 1997 6:47am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 742083 To: Dti Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #742068, Reply to #741970, Reply to #741951, R*) DT>VI>DT> Who is SB? That was who I wrote this one to, not 'ALL'... SB, you o DT>VI>DT>there somewhere? Hellooo.... DT>VI>Hi Adam! DT>VI>Actually this message came out on the board as to and from yourself! DT>VI>:) DT> I figged it would, I had no way of backtracking my response directly DT>to whomever the original typist running here under a tag abbreviatable DT>to SB would read it all and recognize the quotename and gimme some words DT>to further digest. I had no one else to reply to, as Sam Browne or Sid DT>Barracks or Simple Bleve or whatever was not an active recent enough hit DT>to make it into my SLMR packet at the time I typed the above whatchoo DT>replied to up there thing... DT>--- Ok, fair enough. I thought that the original post I was replying to was an error. Date: Tuesday, October 21, 1997 2:51pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 742090 To: Vida Re: Where's Steve Flur? (Reply to #742055, Reply to #742051, Reply to #742030) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>What the hell is going on around here? Where's Steve Flur and Kkid? VI>SF>VI>wrote a message to Steve F and he hasn't responded in @ a week! VI>SF>You forgot about Succhot! VI>True enough! VI>Sorry! I was just getting worried about you. :) I apologize for not announcing my time off as efficiently as you. BTW I am taking two more days off this week as well. Date: Tuesday, October 21, 1997 6:31pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 742099 To: Steve Flur Re: Where's Steve Flur? (Reply to #742090, Reply to #742055, Reply to #742051, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>What the hell is going on around here? Where's Steve Flur and Kkid SF>VI>SF>VI>wrote a message to Steve F and he hasn't responded in @ a week! SF>VI>SF>You forgot about Succhot! SF>VI>True enough! SF>VI>Sorry! I was just getting worried about you. :) SF>I apologize for not announcing my time off as efficiently as you. BTW I SF>am taking two more days off this week as well. Yes, for the Shemini Azert and Simchat Torah, I assume! :) Date: Wednesday, October 22, 1997 8:52am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 742107 To: Vida Re: Where's Steve Flur? (Reply to #742099, Reply to #742090, Reply to #742055, R*) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>What the hell is going on around here? Where's Steve Flur and K VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>wrote a message to Steve F and he hasn't responded in @ a week! VI>SF>VI>SF>You forgot about Succhot! VI>SF>VI>True enough! VI>SF>VI>Sorry! I was just getting worried about you. :) VI>SF>I apologize for not announcing my time off as efficiently as you. BTW I VI>SF>am taking two more days off this week as well. VI>Yes, for the Shemini Azert and Simchat Torah, I assume! :) You assume correctly! Date: Friday, October 24, 1997 7:53am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 742121 To: ** ALL ** Re: A Dybbuk (1 reply) Tony Kushner's play " A Dybbuk" is opening at the Public Theatre beginning October 28. To those who are not familiar with Tony Kushner, he is the playwright of "Angels in America". His work very much draws a strong parallel between being gay and being Jewish. The play will also feature live music by the Klezmatics, absoultely wonderful group that should be seen in and of themselves. If any one wants to come with me, please drop a line to me SOON! Meaning by Monday October 27. I haven't spoken to Bob yet to tell him that the play has opened, but I am hoping to schlepp him to a showing of the play next weekend, perhaps on November 1. So get back to me folks, soon! Date: Monday, October 27, 1997 9:57am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 742143 To: Vida Re: A Dybbuk (Reply to #742121) VI>Tony Kushner's play " A Dybbuk" is opening at the Public Theatre VI>beginning October 28. VI>To those who are not familiar with Tony Kushner, he is the playwright VI>of "Angels in America". His work very much draws a strong parallel VI>between being gay and being Jewish. VI>The play will also feature live music by the Klezmatics, absoultely VI>wonderful group that should be seen in and of themselves. VI>If any one wants to come with me, please drop a line to me SOON! VI>Meaning by Monday October 27. I haven't spoken to Bob yet to tell him VI>that the play has opened, but I am hoping to schlepp him to a showing VI>of the play next weekend, perhaps on November 1. VI>So get back to me folks, soon! Thanks again for the information, however, my life is not my own until after election day. Date: Monday, October 27, 1997 6:24pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 742147 To: Vida Re: Where's Steve Flur? (Reply to #742056, Reply to #742052, Reply to #742042, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>What you write and the way you write it does not generally lend itself VI>KK>to disagreement :-) VI>I find that hard to believe! As an Orthodox Jew, surely some of the VI>stuff I am writing has to be against your grain! It being against my grain does not make it cause for an argument :-) It is just a different opinion. Date: Tuesday, October 28, 1997 6:20am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 742157 To: Kkid Re: Where's Steve Flur? (Reply to #742147, Reply to #742056, Reply to #742052, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>KK>What you write and the way you write it does not generally lend itsel KK>VI>KK>to disagreement :-) KK>VI>I find that hard to believe! As an Orthodox Jew, surely some of the KK>VI>stuff I am writing has to be against your grain! KK>It being against my grain does not make it cause for an argument :-) KK>It is just a different opinion. Then make our differences of opinion a cause of discussion! :) Things around this board are getting terribly boring! Date: Thursday, October 30, 1997 6:30pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 742181 To: Vida Re: Where's Steve Flur? (Reply to #742157, Reply to #742147, Reply to #742056, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>It being against my grain does not make it cause for an argument :-) VI>KK>It is just a different opinion. VI>Then make our differences of opinion a cause of discussion! :) VI>Things around this board are getting terribly boring! Yep, that is what seems to happen here when everyone agrees with everyone else. Date: Friday, October 31, 1997 6:44am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 742185 To: Kkid Re: Where's Steve Flur? (Reply to #742181, Reply to #742157, Reply to #742147, R*) KK>VI>KK>It being against my grain does not make it cause for an argument :-) KK>VI>KK>It is just a different opinion. KK>VI>Then make our differences of opinion a cause of discussion! :) KK>VI>Things around this board are getting terribly boring! KK>Yep, that is what seems to happen here when everyone agrees with KK>everyone else. It's not just that people agree--it's mainly that the traffic has been very low! Date: Sunday, November 9, 1997 4:19am Forum: Theology From: Dti Msg#: 742273 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #742082, Reply to #742067, Reply to #741969, R*) (1 reply) VI>DT> I am replying to a blank post you sent me to reply to. Consider this VI>DT>a place marker if there was some diff in your xmittal of the Thing To Be VI>DT>Replied To with no regrets and the usual good wishes... VI>Hi Adam! I still can't figure out how I managed to send a blank VI>message in the first place. :) I cannot figure out how I ended up with a thread in /Theology, so we are both pretty silly right about now, but that's alright --- * SLMR 2.0 * so cold its hot so fine everything fire and me still dead Date: Monday, November 10, 1997 6:49am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 742278 To: Dti Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #742273, Reply to #742082, Reply to #742067, R*) (1 reply) DT>VI>DT> I am replying to a blank post you sent me to reply to. Consider thi DT>VI>DT>a place marker if there was some diff in your xmittal of the Thing To DT>VI>DT>Replied To with no regrets and the usual good wishes... DT>VI>Hi Adam! I still can't figure out how I managed to send a blank DT>VI>message in the first place. :) DT> I cannot figure out how I ended up with a thread in /Theology, so we DT>are both pretty silly right about now, but that's alright DT>--- Well obviously you have something to say about theological issues. :) Date: Thursday, November 27, 1997 2:04am Forum: Theology From: Dti Msg#: 742664 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #742278, Reply to #742273, Reply to #742082, R*) (1 reply) VI>DT>VI>Hi Adam! I still can't figure out how I managed to send a blank VI>DT>VI>message in the first place. :) VI>DT> I cannot figure out how I ended up with a thread in /Theology, so we VI>DT>are both pretty silly right about now, but that's alright VI>Well obviously you have something to say about theological issues. :) Outside of my repeats in regards to my finding that god has as much in common with Henry Chinaski, whaddi got for this sig? Henry Chinaski was of course a thinly veiled fictional construct made by Charles Bukowski to be a power character in his largely autobiographical/wish fulfillment fiction prose... Being not especially religious myself, and never actually trained or conversant particularly with Judaica, I really have no fucking idea why I still see stuff in this sig for me to type back at. Perhaps I continue to exist here to be the raspy annoying voice of absolute nonbelief, but even that is really no reason. --- * SLMR 2.0 * If this were an actual tagline, it would be illegible Date: Thursday, November 27, 1997 8:41am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 742671 To: Dti Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #742664, Reply to #742278, Reply to #742273, R*) (1 reply) DT>VI>DT>VI>Hi Adam! I still can't figure out how I managed to send a blank DT>VI>DT>VI>message in the first place. :) DT>VI>DT> I cannot figure out how I ended up with a thread in /Theology, so w DT>VI>DT>are both pretty silly right about now, but that's alright DT>VI>Well obviously you have something to say about theological issues. :) DT> Outside of my repeats in regards to my finding that god has as much DT>in common with Henry Chinaski, whaddi got for this sig? Henry Chinaski DT>was of course a thinly veiled fictional construct made by Charles DT>Bukowski to be a power character in his largely autobiographical/wish DT>fulfillment fiction prose... Being not especially religious myself, and DT>never actually trained or conversant particularly with Judaica, I really DT>have no fucking idea why I still see stuff in this sig for me to type DT>back at. Perhaps I continue to exist here to be the raspy annoying voice DT>of absolute nonbelief, but even that is really no reason. DT>--- I for one welcome the voice of an atheist/agnostic in this sig. Maybe because I was an atheist/agnostic for most of my life. Any religious beliefs came to me relatively late in life and for all the most boring reasons. Date: Tuesday, December 9, 1997 4:40am Forum: Theology From: Dti Msg#: 742880 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #742671, Reply to #742664, Reply to #742278, R*) (1 reply) VI>DT> Outside of my repeats in regards to my finding that god has as much VI>DT>in common with Henry Chinaski, whaddi got for this sig? Henry Chinaski VI>DT>was of course a thinly veiled fictional construct made by Charles VI>DT>Bukowski to be a power character in his largely autobiographical/wish VI>DT>fulfillment fiction prose... Being not especially religious myself, and VI>DT>never actually trained or conversant particularly with Judaica, I really VI>DT>have no fucking idea why I still see stuff in this sig for me to type VI>DT>back at. Perhaps I continue to exist here to be the raspy annoying voice VI>DT>of absolute nonbelief, but even that is really no reason. VI>I for one welcome the voice of an atheist/agnostic in this sig. Maybe VI>because I was an atheist/agnostic for most of my life. Any religious VI>beliefs came to me relatively late in life and for all the most boring VI>reasons. How did you get past the old which came first the chicken or the egg routine that tends to make it ridiculous for me to continue past in terms of any religion I have ever encountered? --- * SLMR 2.0 * This tagline is nonexistent and cannot be read by people Date: Tuesday, December 9, 1997 6:45am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 742882 To: Dti Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #742880, Reply to #742671, Reply to #742664, R*) (1 reply) DT>VI>DT> Outside of my repeats in regards to my finding that god has as much DT>VI>DT>in common with Henry Chinaski, whaddi got for this sig? Henry Chinaski DT>VI>DT>was of course a thinly veiled fictional construct made by Charles DT>VI>DT>Bukowski to be a power character in his largely autobiographical/wish DT>VI>DT>fulfillment fiction prose... Being not especially religious myself, an DT>VI>DT>never actually trained or conversant particularly with Judaica, I real DT>VI>DT>have no fucking idea why I still see stuff in this sig for me to type DT>VI>DT>back at. Perhaps I continue to exist here to be the raspy annoying voi DT>VI>DT>of absolute nonbelief, but even that is really no reason. DT>VI>I for one welcome the voice of an atheist/agnostic in this sig. Maybe DT>VI>because I was an atheist/agnostic for most of my life. Any religious DT>VI>beliefs came to me relatively late in life and for all the most boring DT>VI>reasons. DT> How did you get past the old which came first the chicken or the egg DT>routine that tends to make it ridiculous for me to continue past in DT>terms of any religion I have ever encountered? DT>--- I still haven't truth be told! :) I became religious after my mom died. I needed something to fill the void in my life and to give me an anchor. I still have questions and doubts. When I read the weekly Torah portion I sometimes say to myself "This is really ridiculous!". Date: Thursday, December 11, 1997 7:41am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 742930 To: Kkid Re: No Hebrew name (1 reply) I hope you don't mind, but I have several questions to ask you re: the topic of no Hebrew name. As you may know both of my parents are deceased. At Kippur time I sent some money to an Orthodox Jewish charity and asked them to say prayers to honor the memory of my parents. I gave to this charity, btw, because it was one of my mother's favorite charities and wanted to honor her memory by giving to them. In early November I received a letter back from this charity telling me that they REQUIRED me to give them my parent's Hebrew name to say the prayers. I wrote back to the charity and told them that I did not know my parent's Hebrew names. I also told them that my mother had contributed to their Yizkor fund and that it was possible that they had my parent's Hebrew names in their records. I sent them another contribution and asked them to please check their records to see if they could determine my parent's Hebrew names. This charity recently sent me an acknowledgement for my second contribution, but no response to my request for information on my parent's names. In the meantime I called and wrote to the remainder of the family. I think I can piece together my father's Hebrew name. My father was Moshe ben Liebish vDora. Would this be the correct form for Moses son of Liebish and Dora? And is Liebish a Yiddish name or a Hebrew name? Is Dora a Hebrew name? My mother, however, was never given a Hebrew name. My aunt (her sister) sent me a Yiskor announcement my aunt received from Aggudah which shows that my maternal grandfather's Hebrew name was Hersh Nuta B"r Moshe. My maternal grandmother's name was Sarah so I know that's a good Hebrew name. :) My mother's English name was Augusta. My aunt wrote me that because mom was never gave her a Hebrew name. The interesting thing is that my aunt gave me the family tree and it appears that there were several women named Augusta in my family tree. Is there any Hebrew name equivalent for Augusta???? Why would so many Jewish women have the name Augusta? Additionally, I have received e mail advising me that under Orthodox Jewish law that in order to say Kiddush for a particular person that you need the person's name. I was also advised by this person that it may be possible under halacha to come up with a formulation to say Yizkor for an individual if that person's name is unknown. Unfortunately, the person who sent me this e mail did not know how to do so. Do you? (BTW--I posted a message to the Liberal-Judaism internet e mail list discribing the problem I was having with not knowing my parent's Hebrew name. I received the e mail message I just described in response to my post to the e mail list.) If you could help me at all, it would be greatly appreciated. One of reasons why I really want to know is that I also was never given a Hebrew name by my parents and I want to give myself a Hebrew name. Indeed, I am thinking seriously of having an adult bat mitzvah/name giving ceremony at age 50, if I can get my Hebrew reading skills up and learn how to read trope by that time!!! (I'll be 43 next month so I still have time. However, my attempts to learn Hebrew have real totally stalled on the the aleph-bet-gimmel level!) Anyway, I know that my Hebrew name should include "daughter of and son of" in the name. I was told by several people on the Liberal -Judiasm e mail list that if my parent's Hebrew names were unknown that I should just call myself "son of Abraham and Sarah" to honor Abraham and Sarah, the parents of the Jewish people. But this is really not a satisfactory solution to me. I really, really want to honor my specific parents in my Hebrew name. Especially since they are both deceased and I miss them so! Date: Tuesday, December 23, 1997 7:08am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 743150 To: ** ALL ** Re: Survivor's Talmud (1 reply) Found this uplifting story while cruising the net, just in time for the start of Chanukah tonite. Happy Chanukah to all! The 'Survivors' Talmud' tells a story Copyright ) 1997 Nando.net Copyright ) 1997 Scripps Howard (December 23, 1997 00:12 a.m. EST http://www.nando.net) -- If you were to ask Dr. Michael Grunberger, curator of the Hebraic section of the Library of Congress, to name his favorite object in the entire collection, you would expect it would be a difficult choice. After all, there are more than 150,000 items preserved in the collection. Some are worth millions of dollars and his job is to preserve and care for all of them. Curiously, however, his favorite item is neither outstandingly rare, old nor costly. For him personally, the greatest treasure is what he calls the "Survivors' Talmud." It consists of 19 volumes printed in Hebrew in 1948. He treasures these 19 volumes beyond all the other items in the collection because they help to preserve an extraordinary story. There are dozens of editions of the Talmud, an anthology of rabbinic law and lore compiled more than 1,500 years ago, so preserving the Talmud itself is not what was special about the "Survivors' Talmud." But as soon as you open the "Survivors' Talmud" to the title page, you can see a clue as to its history. It was printed in Germany, and the date reveals that it was published right after World War II. The edition had its beginning when a delegation of Jewish displaced persons came to the commander of the American Zone of Occupation in Germany with an unusual proposal. The American Army had provided for the physical needs of the displaced persons. Would the Army be willing to sustain their spiritual needs as well? Would the Army support them in their efforts to publish the Talmud for use by the survivors in the camps? The American commander gave the go-ahead and committed the United States Army to help publish the work. In Grunberger's view, this was an extraordinary act. "Whoever heard," he asks, "of an army printing a massive religious text (50 sets, 19 volumes in each set) in a language incomprehensible to all but a handful of its soldiers?" There were many obstacles. Paper was exceedingly scarce and needed to be rounded up from throughout the zone. And because the publishers couldn't find a complete edition locally, the had to send to New York for two sets of the Talmud to use for prototypes. In gratitude, the survivors dedicated the edition to the United States Army. "This Army," the dedication says, "played a major role in the rescue of the Jewish people from total annihilation, and after the defeat of Hitler, bore the major burden of sustaining the displaced persons of Jewish faith." Grunberger is overwhelmingly proud that it was the U.S. Army that published this edition of the Talmud. For him, this symbolizes one of the things that is best about America. As the proverbial land of immigrants, we are hospitable not only to people, but to their cultures and civilizations as well. We honor spiritual needs as well as physical needs. You can see the "Survivors' Talmud" in the African and Middle Eastern Reading Room, LJ210, in the Thomas Jefferson Building of the Library of Congress in Washington. By MITZI PERDUE, Scripps Howard News Service Date: Tuesday, December 23, 1997 8:28am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 743154 To: Vida Re: Survivor's Talmud (Reply to #743150) (1 reply) VI>Found this uplifting story while cruising the net, just in time for the VI>start of Chanukah tonite. Happy Chanukah to all! VI>The 'Survivors' Talmud' tells a VI>story VI>Copyright ) 1997 Nando.net VI>Copyright ) 1997 Scripps Howard VI>(December 23, 1997 00:12 a.m. EST http://www.nando.net) -- If you were VI>to VI>ask Dr. Michael Grunberger, curator of the Hebraic section of the VI>Library of Congress, to name his favorite object in the entire VI>collection, VI>you would expect it would be a difficult choice. After all, there are VI>more VI>than 150,000 items preserved in the collection. VI>Some are worth millions of dollars and his job is to preserve and care VI>for VI>all of them. Curiously, however, his favorite item is neither VI>outstandingly VI>rare, old nor costly. For him personally, the greatest treasure is what VI>he VI>calls the "Survivors' Talmud." It consists of 19 volumes printed in VI>Hebrew in 1948. He treasures these 19 volumes beyond all the other VI>items in the collection because they help to preserve an extraordinary VI>story. VI>There are dozens of editions of the Talmud, an anthology of rabbinic law VI>and lore compiled more than 1,500 years ago, so preserving the Talmud VI>itself is not what was special about the "Survivors' Talmud." But as VI>soon VI>as you open the "Survivors' Talmud" to the title page, you can see a VI>clue VI>as to its history. It was printed in Germany, and the date reveals that VI>it VI>was published right after World War II. VI>The edition had its beginning when a delegation of Jewish displaced VI>persons came to the commander of the American Zone of Occupation in VI>Germany with an unusual proposal. The American Army had provided VI>for the physical needs of the displaced persons. Would the Army be VI>willing to sustain their spiritual needs as well? Would the Army support VI>them in their efforts to publish the Talmud for use by the survivors in VI>the VI>camps? VI>The American commander gave the go-ahead and committed the United VI>States Army to help publish the work. In Grunberger's view, this was an VI>extraordinary act. "Whoever heard," he asks, "of an army printing a VI>massive religious text (50 sets, 19 volumes in each set) in a language VI>incomprehensible to all but a handful of its soldiers?" VI>There were many obstacles. Paper was exceedingly scarce and needed VI>to be rounded up from throughout the zone. And because the publishers VI>couldn't find a complete edition locally, the had to send to New York VI>for VI>two sets of the Talmud to use for prototypes. VI>In gratitude, the survivors dedicated the edition to the United States VI>Army. "This Army," the dedication says, "played a major role in the VI>rescue of the Jewish people from total annihilation, and after the VI>defeat of VI>Hitler, bore the major burden of sustaining the displaced persons of VI>Jewish faith." VI>Grunberger is overwhelmingly proud that it was the U.S. Army that VI>published this edition of the Talmud. For him, this symbolizes one of VI>the VI>things that is best about America. As the proverbial land of immigrants, VI>we are hospitable not only to people, but to their cultures and VI>civilizations as well. We honor spiritual needs as well as physical VI>needs. VI>You can see the "Survivors' Talmud" in the African and Middle Eastern VI>Reading Room, LJ210, in the Thomas Jefferson Building of the Library VI>of Congress in Washington. VI>By MITZI PERDUE, Scripps Howard News Service A most enjoyable post! A very happy Channukah to you! Date: Wednesday, December 24, 1997 6:57am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 743172 To: Steve Flur Re: Survivor's Talmud (Reply to #743154, Reply to #743150) (1 reply) SF>A most enjoyable post! SF>A very happy Channukah to you! Thank you! Glad you enjoyed it! Happy Channukah to you! :) Date: Wednesday, December 24, 1997 9:13am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 743179 To: Vida Re: Survivor's Talmud (Reply to #743172, Reply to #743154, Reply to #743150) (1 reply) VI>SF>A most enjoyable post! VI>SF>A very happy Channukah to you! VI>Thank you! Glad you enjoyed it! Happy Channukah to you! :) Any special plans? Date: Wednesday, December 24, 1997 2:44pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 743191 To: Vida Re: No Hebrew name (Reply to #742930) (1 reply) VI>As you may know both of my parents are deceased. At Kippur time I sent VI>some money to an Orthodox Jewish charity and asked them to say prayers VI>to honor the memory of my parents. I gave to this charity, btw, VI>because it was one of my mother's favorite charities and wanted to VI>honor her memory by giving to them. Don't say at Kippur time. Say either Yom Kippur time or Yizkor :-) VI>sent me an acknowledgement for my second contribution, but no response VI>to my request for information on my parent's names. Would the cemetary have their Jewish names listed? VI>In the meantime I called and wrote to the remainder of the family. I VI>think I can piece together my father's Hebrew name. My father was VI>Moshe ben Liebish vDora. Would this be the correct form for Moses son VI>of Liebish and Dora? And is Liebish a Yiddish name or a Hebrew name? VI>Is Dora a Hebrew name? Leibish is Yiddish for Leib which means Lion and is Yehudah in Hebrew. Many males with that name are called Yehudah Leib. Dor is Hebrew for generation. Dora as far as I know is not a Hebrew name. VI>My mother, however, was never given a Hebrew name. My aunt (her VI>sister) sent me a Yiskor announcement my aunt received from Aggudah VI>which shows that my maternal grandfather's Hebrew name was Hersh Nuta VI>B"r Moshe. My maternal grandmother's name was Sarah so I know that's a VI>good Hebrew name. :) Hersh Nuta is again Yiddish and not Hebrew. He was probably known as Tzvi Hersh. Tzvi is the Hebrew for the Yiddish Hersh which means deer. VI>My mother's English name was Augusta. My aunt wrote me that because VI>mom was never gave her a Hebrew name. The interesting thing is that my VI>aunt gave me the family tree and it appears that there were several VI>women named Augusta in my family tree. Is there any Hebrew name VI>equivalent for Augusta???? Why would so many Jewish women have the VI>name Augusta? No idea. I did not know that the name Augusta was Jewish. Why don't you ask the name question on one of the Jewish lists you frequent? I'd be curious to know if there is a Jewish equivalent. VI>Additionally, I have received e mail advising me that under Orthodox VI>Jewish law that in order to say Kiddush You mean Kaddush! (Kiddush is the blessing over wine :-) for a particular person that VI>you need the person's name. I was also advised by this person that it VI>may be possible under halacha to come up with a formulation to say VI>Yizkor for an individual if that person's name is unknown. VI>Unfortunately, the person who sent me this e mail did not know how to VI>do so. Do you? I am sure there is a way. I will try to find out for you. The odds are that during Yizkor where you have to insert the name, it would probably be enough for you to say Imi (sounded out as ee-mee) which means "my mother. VI>Anyway, I know that my Hebrew name should include "daughter of and son VI>of" in the name. I was told by several people on the Liberal -Judiasm VI>e mail list that if my parent's Hebrew names were unknown that I should VI>just call myself "son of Abraham and Sarah" to honor Abraham and Sarah, VI>the parents of the Jewish people. But this is really not a VI>satisfactory solution to me. I really, really want to honor my VI>specific parents in my Hebrew name. Especially since they are both VI>deceased and I miss them so! That is what is generally done if the Jewish individual is a convert to Judaism. Date: Wednesday, December 24, 1997 4:35pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 743201 To: Steve Flur Re: Survivor's Talmud (Reply to #743179, Reply to #743172, Reply to #743154, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>A most enjoyable post! SF>VI>SF>A very happy Channukah to you! SF>VI>Thank you! Glad you enjoyed it! Happy Channukah to you! :) SF>Any special plans? Not really. I just light candles and say the brakhot every night. But I am making Christmas dinner for Bob tommorow. And tonight we are having dinner with Bob's daughter. Date: Wednesday, December 24, 1997 4:57pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 743204 To: Kkid Re: No Hebrew name (Reply to #743191, Reply to #742930) (1 reply) KK>VI>As you may know both of my parents are deceased. At Kippur time I sent KK>VI>some money to an Orthodox Jewish charity and asked them to say prayers KK>VI>to honor the memory of my parents. I gave to this charity, btw, KK>VI>because it was one of my mother's favorite charities and wanted to KK>VI>honor her memory by giving to them. KK>Don't say at Kippur time. Say either Yom Kippur time or Yizkor :-) I stand corrected. :) KK>VI>sent me an acknowledgement for my second contribution, but no response KK>VI>to my request for information on my parent's names. KK>Would the cemetary have their Jewish names listed? No. Only their English names are on their graves. I gave some thought to calling the cemetry to see if they have the information, but I don't think the cemetry does. I was the Executrix of my mother's estate so I made all the arrangements for her funeral. I don't remember the cemetry or the rabbi I hired ever asking me about her Hebrew name. Also all the paperwork I have from my parents' funerals only have their English names. KK>VI>In the meantime I called and wrote to the remainder of the family. I KK>VI>think I can piece together my father's Hebrew name. My father was KK>VI>Moshe ben Liebish vDora. Would this be the correct form for Moses son KK>VI>of Liebish and Dora? And is Liebish a Yiddish name or a Hebrew name? KK>VI>Is Dora a Hebrew name? KK>Leibish is Yiddish for Leib which means Lion and is Yehudah in Hebrew. KK>Many males with that name are called Yehudah Leib. KK>Dor is Hebrew for generation. Dora as far as I know is not a Hebrew KK>name. So my paternal grandfather's Hebrew name was probably Yehudah Lieb, then? KK>VI>My mother, however, was never given a Hebrew name. My aunt (her KK>VI>sister) sent me a Yiskor announcement my aunt received from Aggudah KK>VI>which shows that my maternal grandfather's Hebrew name was Hersh Nuta KK>VI>B"r Moshe. My maternal grandmother's name was Sarah so I know that's a KK>VI>good Hebrew name. :) KK>Hersh Nuta is again Yiddish and not Hebrew. He was probably known as KK>Tzvi Hersh. Tzvi is the Hebrew for the Yiddish Hersh which means deer. Ok. I like the fact that my grandpa Harry was named deer. He was a very sweet man. I have very found memories of him. :) KK>VI>My mother's English name was Augusta. My aunt wrote me that because KK>VI>mom was never gave her a Hebrew name. The interesting thing is that my KK>VI>aunt gave me the family tree and it appears that there were several KK>VI>women named Augusta in my family tree. Is there any Hebrew name KK>VI>equivalent for Augusta???? Why would so many Jewish women have the KK>VI>name Augusta? KK>No idea. I did not know that the name Augusta was Jewish. Why don't you KK>ask the name question on one of the Jewish lists you frequent? I'd be KK>curious to know if there is a Jewish equivalent. While smoozing in the Judaica section at Borders book I looked up the name "Augusta" in a book of Jewish names. The book said that the name was an English name and originated from the Roman name Augustine and that it meant "Reverant" in Latin. Is there a Hebrew feminine equivalent name that means "Reverant"? I wrote back to my aunt to find out if she had any clue as to the origin of my mother's name. I was especially curious to find out if my aunt knows what country my mother's family came from. (My mother, my maternal grandmother and maternal grandfather were all born in this country.) KK>VI>Additionally, I have received e mail advising me that under Orthodox KK>VI>Jewish law that in order to say Kiddush KK>You mean Kaddush! (Kiddush is the blessing over wine :-) Again, I stand corrected! But I know the difference between kiddish and kaddush! :) (Do you realize that at this point I probably own 5 or 5 different siddurim in my personal Judaica collection? That includes the Artscroll Separdhic Siddur. And I just purchased the Artscroll Tehillim siddur.) KK> for a particular person that KK>VI>you need the person's name. I was also advised by this person that it KK>VI>may be possible under halacha to come up with a formulation to say KK>VI>Yizkor for an individual if that person's name is unknown. KK>VI>Unfortunately, the person who sent me this e mail did not know how to KK>VI>do so. Do you? KK>I am sure there is a way. I will try to find out for you. The odds are KK>that during Yizkor where you have to insert the name, it would probably KK>be enough for you to say Imi (sounded out as ee-mee) which means "my KK>mother. I like that a lot! Would my father be abi (sounded out ab-ee)? If so, you see I do remember a little bit of the Hebrew I have been taking! :) KK>VI>Anyway, I know that my Hebrew name should include "daughter of and son KK>VI>of" in the name. I was told by several people on the Liberal -Judiasm KK>VI>e mail list that if my parent's Hebrew names were unknown that I should KK>VI>just call myself "son of Abraham and Sarah" to honor Abraham and Sarah, KK>VI>the parents of the Jewish people. But this is really not a KK>VI>satisfactory solution to me. I really, really want to honor my KK>VI>specific parents in my Hebrew name. Especially since they are both KK>VI>deceased and I miss them so! KK>That is what is generally done if the Jewish individual is a convert to KK>Judaism. Yes, I know that. But I am not a convert. I think if I can come up with a Hebrew feminine name that means "Reverant" that I may have a solution to the my own Hebrew name dilemna. Now if I would only get off my duff and start doing something about my stalled Hebrew language development, I just might be able to have that special Adult Bat Mitzvah ceremony at age 50! :) Thanks for all your help and useful comments. I truly appreciate them! :) Date: Thursday, December 25, 1997 10:52am Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 743209 To: Vida Re: No Hebrew name (Reply to #743204, Reply to #743191, Reply to #742930) (1 reply) VI>KK>Would the cemetary have their Jewish names listed? VI>No. Only their English names are on their graves. VI>I gave some thought to calling the cemetry to see if they have the VI>information, but I don't think the cemetry does. I was the Executrix VI>of my mother's estate so I made all the arrangements for her funeral. VI>I don't remember the cemetry or the rabbi I hired ever asking me about VI>her Hebrew name. Also all the paperwork I have from my parents' VI>funerals only have their English names. You should check anyway. There is always a chance that their Hebrew name is written somewhere on the paperwork. VI>KK>Leibish is Yiddish for Leib which means Lion and is Yehudah in Hebrew. VI>KK>Many males with that name are called Yehudah Leib. VI>KK>Dor is Hebrew for generation. Dora as far as I know is not a Hebrew VI>KK>name. VI>So my paternal grandfather's Hebrew name was probably Yehudah Lieb, VI>then? VI> That would be considered his Hebrew as well as Yiddish name. In otherwords both would have been included when he was called up to the Torah. VI>While smoozing in the Judaica section at Borders book I looked up the VI>name "Augusta" in a book of Jewish names. The book said that the name VI>was an English name and originated from the Roman name Augustine and VI>that it meant "Reverant" in Latin. Is there a Hebrew feminine VI>equivalent name that means "Reverant"? I have a friend named Alex. He is called up to the Torah as Alexander. I had never realized that it is considered an Hebrew name. The same may be true for Augusta. I'll have to check it out. VI>KK>I am sure there is a way. I will try to find out for you. The odds are VI>KK>that during Yizkor where you have to insert the name, it would probably VI>KK>be enough for you to say Imi (sounded out as ee-mee) which means "my VI>KK>mother. VI>I like that a lot! Would my father be abi (sounded out ab-ee)? If so, VI>you see I do remember a little bit of the Hebrew I have been taking! :) It would probably be Uh-vee or Ah-vee. VI>I think if I can come up with a Hebrew feminine name that means VI>"Reverant" that I may have a solution to the my own Hebrew name VI>dilemna. If I think of something I will post it. Hmm....I never heard of what I will now tell you but it just popped into my brain. My sister in law had a little girl a week or so ago and named her Ah-yah-lah. Ah-yahl is a deer as well as Tzvi. Ah-yah-lah is a female deer or doe. Check you Art Scroll siddur for the Ayshes Chayil prayer said before Kiddish Friday nights. Chayil there translates as Valor-- a woman of valor. How does Cha-yah-la sound. It sounds good to me but whether or not it is correct as a name, I have no idea :-) Actually, zap that, as chayalah may actually mean "army." Oh well, I tried. Date: Thursday, December 25, 1997 9:14pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 743213 To: Kkid Re: No Hebrew name (Reply to #743209, Reply to #743204, Reply to #743191, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>KK>Would the cemetary have their Jewish names listed? KK>VI>No. Only their English names are on their graves. KK>VI>I gave some thought to calling the cemetry to see if they have the KK>VI>information, but I don't think the cemetry does. I was the Executrix KK>VI>of my mother's estate so I made all the arrangements for her funeral. KK>VI>I don't remember the cemetry or the rabbi I hired ever asking me about KK>VI>her Hebrew name. Also all the paperwork I have from my parents' KK>VI>funerals only have their English names. KK>You should check anyway. There is always a chance that their Hebrew name KK>is written somewhere on the paperwork. Ok. It's certainly worth the price of the phone call. :) KK>VI>KK>Leibish is Yiddish for Leib which means Lion and is Yehudah in Hebrew. KK>VI>KK>Many males with that name are called Yehudah Leib. KK>VI>KK>Dor is Hebrew for generation. Dora as far as I know is not a Hebrew KK>VI>KK>name. KK>VI>So my paternal grandfather's Hebrew name was probably Yehudah Lieb, KK>VI>then? KK>VI> KK>That would be considered his Hebrew as well as Yiddish name. In KK>otherwords both would have been included when he was called up to the KK>Torah. Both the Hebrew and the Yiddish would have to be included for him to be called up for a Torah reading? Now, that's interesting. I never heard that Yiddish had any standing at all in the synagogue context. I always thought that Yiddish was purely a "profane" or "secular" language. What about Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews? Surely you can't require the use of a Yiddish name for these groups? KK>VI>While smoozing in the Judaica section at Borders book I looked up the KK>VI>name "Augusta" in a book of Jewish names. The book said that the name KK>VI>was an English name and originated from the Roman name Augustine and KK>VI>that it meant "Reverant" in Latin. Is there a Hebrew feminine KK>VI>equivalent name that means "Reverant"? KK>I have a friend named Alex. He is called up to the Torah as Alexander. KK>I had never realized that it is considered an Hebrew name. The same may KK>be true for Augusta. I'll have to check it out. Ok. Thanks. If you find out anything I would really appreciate it. :) KK>VI>KK>I am sure there is a way. I will try to find out for you. The odds are KK>VI>KK>that during Yizkor where you have to insert the name, it would probabl KK>VI>KK>be enough for you to say Imi (sounded out as ee-mee) which means "my KK>VI>KK>mother. KK>VI>I like that a lot! Would my father be abi (sounded out ab-ee)? If so, KK>VI>you see I do remember a little bit of the Hebrew I have been taking! :) KK>It would probably be Uh-vee or Ah-vee. Ah well, try, try, try again. :) KK>VI>I think if I can come up with a Hebrew feminine name that means KK>VI>"Reverant" that I may have a solution to the my own Hebrew name KK>VI>dilemna. KK>If I think of something I will post it. KK>Hmm....I never heard of what I will now tell you but it just popped into KK>my brain. My sister in law had a little girl a week or so ago and named KK>her Ah-yah-lah. Ah-yahl is a deer as well as Tzvi. Ah-yah-lah is a KK>female deer or doe. KK>Check you Art Scroll siddur for the Ayshes Chayil prayer said before KK>Kiddish Friday nights. Chayil there translates as Valor-- a woman of KK>valor. How does Cha-yah-la sound. It sounds good to me but whether or KK>not it is correct as a name, I have no idea :-) KK>Actually, zap that, as chayalah may actually mean "army." KK>Oh well, I tried. I don't think my mother would have wanted to be called "army". But if you ever crossed her, watch out! :) Date: Friday, December 26, 1997 9:04am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 743222 To: Vida Re: Survivor's Talmud (Reply to #743201, Reply to #743179, Reply to #743172, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>A most enjoyable post! VI>SF>VI>SF>A very happy Channukah to you! VI>SF>VI>Thank you! Glad you enjoyed it! Happy Channukah to you! :) VI>SF>Any special plans? VI>Not really. I just light candles and say the brakhot every night. But VI>I am making Christmas dinner for Bob tommorow. And tonight we are VI>having dinner with Bob's daughter. Enjoy whatever you do. Date: Friday, December 26, 1997 9:54am Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 743226 To: Vida Re: No Hebrew name (Reply to #743213, Reply to #743209, Reply to #743204, R*) (1 reply) VI>Both the Hebrew and the Yiddish would have to be included for him to be VI>called up for a Torah reading? Now, that's interesting. I never heard VI>that Yiddish had any standing at all in the synagogue context. I VI>always thought that Yiddish was purely a "profane" or "secular" VI>language. Didn't say they have to, but that they would. As far as I know, that is how it is done. Yiddish by many is considered anything but profane. Many say it acquired a holiness during the holocaust when that was the major language of the Jews who were killed. VI>What about Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews? Surely you can't require the VI>use of a Yiddish name for these groups? I did not say they require a Yiddish name but that if they had one then it is generally used as well. Date: Saturday, December 27, 1997 8:19am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 743244 To: Steve Flur Re: Survivor's Talmud (Reply to #743222, Reply to #743201, Reply to #743179, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>A most enjoyable post! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>A very happy Channukah to you! SF>VI>SF>VI>Thank you! Glad you enjoyed it! Happy Channukah to you! :) SF>VI>SF>Any special plans? SF>VI>Not really. I just light candles and say the brakhot every night. But SF>VI>I am making Christmas dinner for Bob tommorow. And tonight we are SF>VI>having dinner with Bob's daughter. SF>Enjoy whatever you do. Thank you. I ended up going to BJ last night with Bob. After all the Christmas hoopla I needed a "shot" of yiddishkeit badly. Date: Saturday, December 27, 1997 8:23am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 743245 To: Kkid Re: No Hebrew name (Reply to #743226, Reply to #743213, Reply to #743209, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>Both the Hebrew and the Yiddish would have to be included for him to be KK>VI>called up for a Torah reading? Now, that's interesting. I never heard KK>VI>that Yiddish had any standing at all in the synagogue context. I KK>VI>always thought that Yiddish was purely a "profane" or "secular" KK>VI>language. KK>Didn't say they have to, but that they would. As far as I know, that is KK>how it is done. Yiddish by many is considered anything but profane. Many KK>say it acquired a holiness during the holocaust when that was the major KK>language of the Jews who were killed. Interesting thought. I never even thought of that. KK>VI>What about Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews? Surely you can't require the KK>VI>use of a Yiddish name for these groups? KK>I did not say they require a Yiddish name but that if they had one then KK>it is generally used as well. Or perhaps for Sephardic Jews their Ladino name would be used as well as their Hebrew name. I don't know if the Mizrahi Jews have a distinctive "Jewish" language associated with that group. Date: Saturday, December 27, 1997 8:23pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 743254 To: Vida Re: Jewish names (Reply to #743245, Reply to #743226, Reply to #743213, R*) (1 reply) VI>Or perhaps for Sephardic Jews their Ladino name would be used as well VI>as their Hebrew name. I don't know if the Mizrahi Jews have a VI>distinctive "Jewish" language associated with that group. When you say Mizrahi Jews, what do you mean? Date: Sunday, December 28, 1997 11:49am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 743256 To: Kkid Re: Jewish names (Reply to #743254, Reply to #743245, Reply to #743226, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>Or perhaps for Sephardic Jews their Ladino name would be used as well KK>VI>as their Hebrew name. I don't know if the Mizrahi Jews have a KK>VI>distinctive "Jewish" language associated with that group. KK>When you say Mizrahi Jews, what do you mean? This is the definition from an article that apepars in the Current Winter 5758/1997-1998 issue of "Bridges: A Journal for Jewish Feminists and Our Friends". It's a special issue entitled "Sephardi and mizrahi Women Write About Their Lives". It's from the Introduction, by Debra Crespin and Sarah Jacobus " 'Mizrahi'--eastern in Hebrew--is used to describe people descended from Jewish communities that never left the Middle East and Africa in the course of Jewish history. Their home language was usually Arabic or Judeo-Arabic and many aspects of their culture is closer to their Arab neighbors than to Askenzai Jews." I thought you lived in Midwood, don't you? If so, than you must have run into many Mizrahi Jews or Arabic Jews since there are so many of them that live in that neighboorhood. A little amusing story along that line--I took a car service car to get to the Port Authority Bus terminal this summer. The driver was obviously an Arab, which didn't raise too much thought on my behalf. As I was riding in the cab I noticed that he had a little book that was boobing up and down on his rear view mirror. I assumed, of course, it was a Koran. But as I rode the cover of the book caught my eye. I could read it! (I can definitely NOT read Arabic!) The cover said "Tehilim" in Hebrew! It was a book of the Psalms in Hebrew. So obviously, the driver was an Arabic Jew! :) Date: Monday, December 29, 1997 12:45pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 743275 To: Vida Re: Survivor's Talmud (Reply to #743244, Reply to #743222, Reply to #743201, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>A most enjoyable post! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>A very happy Channukah to you! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Thank you! Glad you enjoyed it! Happy Channukah to you! :) VI>SF>VI>SF>Any special plans? VI>SF>VI>Not really. I just light candles and say the brakhot every night. Bu VI>SF>VI>I am making Christmas dinner for Bob tommorow. And tonight we are VI>SF>VI>having dinner with Bob's daughter. VI>SF>Enjoy whatever you do. VI>Thank you. VI>I ended up going to BJ last night with Bob. After all the Christmas VI>hoopla I needed a "shot" of yiddishkeit badly. And was it pleasent for both of you? Date: Monday, December 29, 1997 9:12pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 743297 To: Steve Flur Re: Survivor's Talmud (Reply to #743275, Reply to #743244, Reply to #743222, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>A most enjoyable post! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>A very happy Channukah to you! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Thank you! Glad you enjoyed it! Happy Channukah to you! :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Any special plans? SF>VI>SF>VI>Not really. I just light candles and say the brakhot every night. SF>VI>SF>VI>I am making Christmas dinner for Bob tommorow. And tonight we are SF>VI>SF>VI>having dinner with Bob's daughter. SF>VI>SF>Enjoy whatever you do. SF>VI>Thank you. SF>VI>I ended up going to BJ last night with Bob. After all the Christmas SF>VI>hoopla I needed a "shot" of yiddishkeit badly. SF>And was it pleasent for both of you? Yes. Bob's been to BJ before with me before. He says their version of "Lochi Dodi" is his on his top ten religious hits. :) Date: Tuesday, December 30, 1997 9:32am Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 743309 To: Vida Re: Jewish names (Reply to #743256, Reply to #743254, Reply to #743245, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>When you say Mizrahi Jews, what do you mean? VI>This is the definition from an article that apepars in the Current VI>Winter 5758/1997-1998 issue of "Bridges: A Journal for Jewish Feminists VI>and Our Friends". It's a special issue entitled "Sephardi and mizrahi VI>Women Write About Their Lives". It's from the Introduction, by Debra VI>Crespin and Sarah Jacobus VI>" 'Mizrahi'--eastern in Hebrew--is used to describe people descended VI>from Jewish communities that never left the Middle East and Africa in VI>the course of Jewish history. Their home language was usually Arabic VI>or Judeo-Arabic and many aspects of their culture is closer to their VI>Arab neighbors than to Askenzai Jews." VI>I thought you lived in Midwood, don't you? If so, than you must have VI>run into many Mizrahi Jews or Arabic Jews since there are so many of VI>them that live in that neighboorhood. Ahh...Those are the Jews "we" refer to as Sefardim. VI>A little amusing story along that line--I took a car service car to get Date: Tuesday, December 30, 1997 10:05am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 743320 To: Vida Re: Survivor's Talmud (Reply to #743297, Reply to #743275, Reply to #743244, R*) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>A most enjoyable post! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>A very happy Channukah to you! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Thank you! Glad you enjoyed it! Happy Channukah to you! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Any special plans? VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Not really. I just light candles and say the brakhot every nigh VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I am making Christmas dinner for Bob tommorow. And tonight we a VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>having dinner with Bob's daughter. VI>SF>VI>SF>Enjoy whatever you do. VI>SF>VI>Thank you. VI>SF>VI>I ended up going to BJ last night with Bob. After all the Christmas VI>SF>VI>hoopla I needed a "shot" of yiddishkeit badly. VI>SF>And was it pleasent for both of you? VI>Yes. Bob's been to BJ before with me before. He says their version of VI>"Lochi Dodi" is his on his top ten religious hits. :) Sing to us a few bars! Date: Wednesday, December 31, 1997 7:01am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 743357 To: Kkid Re: Jewish names (Reply to #743309, Reply to #743256, Reply to #743254, R*) KK>VI>KK>When you say Mizrahi Jews, what do you mean? KK>VI>This is the definition from an article that apepars in the Current KK>VI>Winter 5758/1997-1998 issue of "Bridges: A Journal for Jewish Feminists KK>VI>and Our Friends". It's a special issue entitled "Sephardi and mizrahi KK>VI>Women Write About Their Lives". It's from the Introduction, by Debra KK>VI>Crespin and Sarah Jacobus KK>VI>" 'Mizrahi'--eastern in Hebrew--is used to describe people descended KK>VI>from Jewish communities that never left the Middle East and Africa in KK>VI>the course of Jewish history. Their home language was usually Arabic KK>VI>or Judeo-Arabic and many aspects of their culture is closer to their KK>VI>Arab neighbors than to Askenzai Jews." KK>VI>I thought you lived in Midwood, don't you? If so, than you must have KK>VI>run into many Mizrahi Jews or Arabic Jews since there are so many of KK>VI>them that live in that neighboorhood. KK>Ahh...Those are the Jews "we" refer to as Sefardim. There's a lot of intermixing between the two groups. Sephardic literally means Spainish. It refers to the desendants of the Jewish community in Spain. After the Expulsion from Spain in 1492 a lot of Spainish Jews immigrated to the Middle East and mixed in with the Jewish communities already settled there. I think that it is a political thing as well. All non Eastern European Jews tend to bond together because Ashkenazi Jews have tended to set the standard of what it means to be Jewish. There has also been widespread reports of discrimination against non Eastern European Jews in Israel. Date: Wednesday, January 7, 1998 2:58am Forum: Theology From: Dti Msg#: 743520 To: Vida Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #742882, Reply to #742880, Reply to #742671, R*) (1 reply) VI>DT> How did you get past the old which came first the chicken or the egg VI>DT>routine that tends to make it ridiculous for me to continue past in VI>DT>terms of any religion I have ever encountered? VI>I still haven't truth be told! :) VI>I became religious after my mom died. I needed something to fill the VI>void in my life and to give me an anchor. VI>I still have questions and doubts. When I read the weekly Torah VI>portion I sometimes say to myself "This is really ridiculous!". I havent become religious, although my mom is still alive. I had a certain amount of religious education when a child, but the main thing I remember from the time spent is that there are children who can really fake purity and innocence while actively being shit heels, and that even such children so shiny and perfect are susceptible to a well aimed kick in the balls delivered with feeling and secular truth. My grandmother was intensely faithful, I say that rather than religious because she was not a slave to the scheduled activities I tend to see religion as being largely made of. However, she did believe in god truly and in real time. She held her faith in a way I still admire, and I think that her faith helped her while she was alive as well as while one of her children died and while she was dying. My grandmother's faith was straight up and simple. If I asked her about chickens and eggs, well, if I could ask her about chickens and eggs actually; she would probably say that god made both. After all: there are chickens and eggs in the world, and both are needed. If I really were to press her about which one god made first, my grandmother prolly would smile and say that it is a wonderful world, and bless me. I never could argue with her. I do miss her. --- * SLMR 2.0 * Less is More. Death is the Answer. Life is the Question. Date: Wednesday, January 7, 1998 5:10am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 743544 To: Dti Re: Parsha Kedoshim (Reply to #743520, Reply to #742882, Reply to #742880, R*) DT>VI>DT> How did you get past the old which came first the chicken or the eg DT>VI>DT>routine that tends to make it ridiculous for me to continue past in DT>VI>DT>terms of any religion I have ever encountered? DT>VI>I still haven't truth be told! :) DT>VI>I became religious after my mom died. I needed something to fill the DT>VI>void in my life and to give me an anchor. DT>VI>I still have questions and doubts. When I read the weekly Torah DT>VI>portion I sometimes say to myself "This is really ridiculous!". DT> I havent become religious, although my mom is still alive. I had a DT>certain amount of religious education when a child, but the main thing I DT>remember from the time spent is that there are children who can really DT>fake purity and innocence while actively being shit heels, and that even DT>such children so shiny and perfect are susceptible to a well aimed kick DT>in the balls delivered with feeling and secular truth. DT> My grandmother was intensely faithful, I say that rather than DT>religious because she was not a slave to the scheduled activities I tend DT>to see religion as being largely made of. However, she did believe in DT>god truly and in real time. She held her faith in a way I still admire, DT>and I think that her faith helped her while she was alive as well as DT>while one of her children died and while she was dying. My grandmother's DT>faith was straight up and simple. If I asked her about chickens and DT>eggs, well, if I could ask her about chickens and eggs actually; she DT>would probably say that god made both. After all: there are chickens and DT>eggs in the world, and both are needed. If I really were to press her DT>about which one god made first, my grandmother prolly would smile and DT>say that it is a wonderful world, and bless me. DT> I never could argue with her. I do miss her. DT>--- DT> * SLMR 2.0 * Less is More. Death is the Answer. Life is the Question. See, I grew up in an intensely anti-religious household. My father was a Communist. He was born in what is now Romania, although it was Hungary at the time he was born. His father (my paternal grandfather) fled his town at the end of WW I, basically draft dodging from being conscripted into the Romanian army after the collapse of the Austro-Hungarian empire. My grandfather had 13 brothers and sisters that he left behind, but only one brother survived the Holocaust. The rest died in the camps. My grandfather had been a very religious man but dad was always anti-religious because he was a Communist. Then dad became very bitter and angry at G*d when he found out what happened to all his aunts and uncles in the old country. I still haven't been able to find a good answer to the question of why G*d could allow such attrocities as the Holocaust to happpen,btw. I know exactly what you are talking about when you talk about the hypocrisy of religious people and when you describe how kids pretend to be religious to earn brownie points. I think plenty of adults do that too. I often feel bad about my own inability to practice my religion. I do so little to help the hungry and homeless, and I know that I should. I feel guilty when I see a homeless person laying on the street and instantly react to that person as if he was garbage. I know that all people are G*d's children and that I am commanded as a Jew to feed and clothe the hungry and poor, but I still walk away from disgust when I pass homeless people sprawled out on the floors of the subway. Date: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 6:56am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 743770 To: ** ALL ** Re: Is abortion murder? (1 reply) There is a fascinating article in the current Winter 1997/98 issue of "Lilith" magazine entitled "Is Abortion Murder?: Jews and Christians Will Answer Differently" by Leila Bronner. The author details the different ways that Jews and Catholics analyze the abortion question. In short, the author points out that the Catholic traditon focuses on the soul of the fetus, while Jweish law focuses on the life of the mother. The implications of this are that under Jewish law it is not only permissible to perform an abortion in order to save the life of a mother, it is REQUIRED to do so. On the other hand, the Catholic Church makes the central question to be the issue of when the soul enters the body of person. Ensoulment is crucial to the Catholic Church since the Church also teaches that a soul that has not been baptized is condemned to eternal perdition. Once the Church decided that ensoulment occurred at the moment of conception abortion became morally unacceptable because to commit an abortion would be to condemn the soul of the fetus to eternal perdition. Fascinating, fascinating reading! Date: Wednesday, January 14, 1998 7:54pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 743813 To: Vida Re: Is abortion murder? (Reply to #743770) (1 reply) VI>the soul of the fetus, while Jweish law focuses on the life of the VI>mother. The implications of this are that under Jewish law it is not VI>only permissible to perform an abortion in order to save the life of a VI>mother, it is REQUIRED to do so. On the other hand, the Catholic Church VI>makes the central question to be the issue of when the soul enters the VI>body of person. Ensoulment is crucial to the Catholic Church since the VI>Church also teaches that a soul that has not been baptized is condemned VI>to eternal perdition. Once the Church decided that ensoulment occurred VI>at the moment of conception abortion became morally unacceptable because VI>to commit an abortion would be to condemn the soul of the fetus to VI>eternal perdition. Fascinating, fascinating reading! Oh no...now you are posting this :-) Lythande posted this or quoted it almost verbatim ages ago. Please do not walk away with the impression that abortions are permitted under Jewish law. They are not. They are only permitted in special cases. In Jewish law almost everything is permitted when a life is in danger even desecrating the Sabbath, eating on Yom Kippur, eating pork, etc... Date: Thursday, January 15, 1998 7:14am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 743817 To: Kkid Re: Is abortion murder? (Reply to #743813, Reply to #743770) (1 reply) KK>VI>the soul of the fetus, while Jweish law focuses on the life of the KK>VI>mother. The implications of this are that under Jewish law it is not KK>VI>only permissible to perform an abortion in order to save the life of a KK>VI>mother, it is REQUIRED to do so. On the other hand, the Catholic Church KK>VI>makes the central question to be the issue of when the soul enters the KK>VI>body of person. Ensoulment is crucial to the Catholic Church since the KK>VI>Church also teaches that a soul that has not been baptized is condemned KK>VI>to eternal perdition. Once the Church decided that ensoulment occurred KK>VI>at the moment of conception abortion became morally unacceptable because KK>VI>to commit an abortion would be to condemn the soul of the fetus to KK>VI>eternal perdition. Fascinating, fascinating reading! KK>Oh no...now you are posting this :-) KK>Lythande posted this or quoted it almost verbatim ages ago. KK>Please do not walk away with the impression that abortions are permitted KK>under Jewish law. They are not. They are only permitted in special KK>cases. In Jewish law almost everything is permitted when a life is in KK>danger even desecrating the Sabbath, eating on Yom Kippur, eating pork, KK>etc... But the point is that abortion is NOT murder under Jewish law. And that it is permitted to save the life of the mother. Unless I am mistaken, under Catholic law if it is a choice between the life of a mother and the life of the fetus/baby they will choice to save the life of the fetus/baby. Under Jewish law, however, as the article points out, we will choice to save the life of the mother at least until the head of the baby emerges out of the womb. Date: Thursday, January 15, 1998 7:09pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 743835 To: Vida Re: Is abortion murder? (Reply to #743817, Reply to #743813, Reply to #743770) (1 reply) VI>But the point is that abortion is NOT murder under Jewish law. And that VI>it is permitted to save the life of the mother. Unless I am mistaken, VI>under Catholic law if it is a choice between the life of a mother and VI>the life of the fetus/baby they will choice to save the life of the VI>fetus/baby. Under Jewish law, however, as the article points out, we VI>will choice to save the life of the mother at least until the head of VI>the baby emerges out of the womb. Oh no! Not again :-) Try to follow my line of reasoning, pretty please. Abortions are NOT permitted under Jewish law. Eating pork is NOT permitted under Jewish law. Driving a car is NOT permitted on the Sabbath... The above statements are considered facts. There do however exist circumstances where the above become permissable. If the above makes no sense to you then the following statement would be correct. Everything is permissable according to the Jewish religion. Do you follow my reasoning? Date: Friday, January 16, 1998 7:07am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 743871 To: Kkid Re: Is abortion murder? (Reply to #743835, Reply to #743817, Reply to #743813, R*) (2 replies) KK>VI>But the point is that abortion is NOT murder under Jewish law. And that KK>VI>it is permitted to save the life of the mother. Unless I am mistaken, KK>VI>under Catholic law if it is a choice between the life of a mother and KK>VI>the life of the fetus/baby they will choice to save the life of the KK>VI>fetus/baby. Under Jewish law, however, as the article points out, we KK>VI>will choice to save the life of the mother at least until the head of KK>VI>the baby emerges out of the womb. KK>Oh no! Not again :-) KK>Try to follow my line of reasoning, pretty please. Abortions are NOT KK>permitted under Jewish law. Eating pork is NOT permitted under Jewish KK>law. Driving a car is NOT permitted on the Sabbath... KK>The above statements are considered facts. There do however exist KK>circumstances where the above become permissable. KK>If the above makes no sense to you then the following statement would be KK>correct. Everything is permissable according to the Jewish religion. KK>Do you follow my reasoning? What you are saying, I believe, is that the preservation of human life is the primary good under Jewish law. Thus, it is permissible to violate normal "rules of behavior" in order to preserve a human life. For example, observing Shabbat is ONE of the most important rules of Jewish law--if not the MOST important. However, if a person's life is at risk it is permissible to descretate the Shabbat to save the person. Thus you can drive a critically ill person to a hospital to save their life on Shabbat. Do I get your point right? Now, see if you can get my point. Under Catholic law, unless I am mistaken it is NOT permissible to have an abortion even if the mother's life is in danger. That's because the Catholics believe the soul enters a fetus's body at the moment of conception and that if you abort a fetus you are condemning that soul to Limbo because the soul died before it was baptized. In other words, you can't abort a fetus no matter what because one life can not take precedence over another life. Jewish law, however, does not hold the fetus' existence to have the same value as the life of the mother. Date: Friday, January 16, 1998 4:35pm Forum: Theology From: Steve C Msg#: 743880 To: Vida Re: Is abortion murder? (Reply to #743871, Reply to #743835, Reply to #743817, R*) (1 reply) VI>What you are saying, I believe, is that the preservation of human life VI>is the primary good under Jewish law. Thus, it is permissible to VI>violate normal "rules of behavior" in order to preserve a human life. VI>For example, observing Shabbat is ONE of the most important rules of VI>Jewish law--if not the MOST important. However, if a person's life is VI>at risk it is permissible to descretate the Shabbat to save the person. VI>Thus you can drive a critically ill person to a hospital to save their VI>life on Shabbat. Do I get your point right? VI>Now, see if you can get my point. Under Catholic law, unless I am VI>mistaken it is NOT permissible to have an abortion even if the mother's VI>life is in danger. That's because the Catholics believe the soul enters VI>a fetus's body at the moment of conception and that if you abort a fetus VI>you are condemning that soul to Limbo because the soul died before it VI>was baptized. In other words, you can't abort a fetus no matter what VI>because one life can not take precedence over another life. Jewish law, VI>however, does not hold the fetus' existence to have the same value as VI>the life of the mother. I have to disagree with you. Having been through this I can speak from experience. In our case the Monsignor said it was ok to have the TOP (termination of pregnancy) but that we should have the body baptized right after delivery and he wanted to say a memorial mass for her as soon as we felt ready for it. The baptism takes care of the soul, and the mother is safe. The Catholic Church's stand is against elective abortions, not medically required ones, and while the overall appearances may not look like it favors the mother at all, the individual priests take all things into consideration before making any suggestions about things such as these. * OLX 2.1 TD * I used to have an open mind but my brains kept falling ou Date: Saturday, January 17, 1998 3:58am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 743886 To: Steve C Re: Is abortion murder? (Reply to #743880, Reply to #743871, Reply to #743835, R*) (2 replies) SC>VI>What you are saying, I believe, is that the preservation of human life SC>VI>is the primary good under Jewish law. Thus, it is permissible to SC>VI>violate normal "rules of behavior" in order to preserve a human life. SC>VI>For example, observing Shabbat is ONE of the most important rules of SC>VI>Jewish law--if not the MOST important. However, if a person's life is SC>VI>at risk it is permissible to descretate the Shabbat to save the person. SC>VI>Thus you can drive a critically ill person to a hospital to save their SC>VI>life on Shabbat. Do I get your point right? SC>VI>Now, see if you can get my point. Under Catholic law, unless I am SC>VI>mistaken it is NOT permissible to have an abortion even if the mother's SC>VI>life is in danger. That's because the Catholics believe the soul enters SC>VI>a fetus's body at the moment of conception and that if you abort a fetus SC>VI>you are condemning that soul to Limbo because the soul died before it SC>VI>was baptized. In other words, you can't abort a fetus no matter what SC>VI>because one life can not take precedence over another life. Jewish law, SC>VI>however, does not hold the fetus' existence to have the same value as SC>VI>the life of the mother. SC>I have to disagree with you. Having been through this I can speak from SC>experience. SC>In our case the Monsignor said it was ok to have the TOP (termination of SC>pregnancy) but that we should have the body baptized right after SC>delivery and he wanted to say a memorial mass for her as soon as we SC>felt ready for it. SC>The baptism takes care of the soul, and the mother is safe. SC>The Catholic Church's stand is against elective abortions, not SC>medically required ones, and while the overall appearances may not look SC>like it favors the mother at all, the individual priests take all things SC>into consideration before making any suggestions about things such as SC>these. SC> * OLX 2.1 TD * I used to have an open mind but my brains kept falling ou Then I stand corrected!!!! I hope what I wrote previously was not offensive to you. I was just giving my honest impression of what your religion teaches. Obviously, as a nonCatholic I am far from the expert! Date: Saturday, January 17, 1998 2:20pm Forum: Theology From: Steve C Msg#: 743906 To: Vida Re: Is abortion murder? (Reply to #743886, Reply to #743880, Reply to #743871, R*) (1 reply) VI>SC>VI>Now, see if you can get my point. Under Catholic law, unless I am VI>SC>VI>mistaken it is NOT permissible to have an abortion even if the mother' VI>SC>VI>life is in danger. That's because the Catholics believe the soul ente VI>SC>VI>a fetus's body at the moment of conception and that if you abort a fet VI>SC>VI>you are condemning that soul to Limbo because the soul died before it VI>SC>VI>was baptized. In other words, you can't abort a fetus no matter what VI>SC>VI>because one life can not take precedence over another life. Jewish la VI>SC>VI>however, does not hold the fetus' existence to have the same value as VI>SC>VI>the life of the mother. VI>SC>I have to disagree with you. Having been through this I can speak from VI>SC>experience. VI>SC>In our case the Monsignor said it was ok to have the TOP (termination of VI>SC>pregnancy) but that we should have the body baptized right after VI>SC>delivery and he wanted to say a memorial mass for her as soon as we VI>SC>felt ready for it. VI>SC>The baptism takes care of the soul, and the mother is safe. VI>SC>The Catholic Church's stand is against elective abortions, not VI>SC>medically required ones, and while the overall appearances may not look VI>SC>like it favors the mother at all, the individual priests take all things VI>SC>into consideration before making any suggestions about things such as VI>SC>these. VI>Then I stand corrected!!!! I hope what I wrote previously was not VI>offensive to you. I was just giving my honest impression of what your VI>religion teaches. Obviously, as a nonCatholic I am far from the expert! No offense taken. Unfortunately the most outspoken views on a subject are usually from the extremely conservative who have views that are not the viewsof the group as a whole, and the unhappy who will try to give a group a bad name by misrepresenting them. It is only through conversations like this that we can find the truth. :) --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here. Date: Saturday, January 17, 1998 2:22pm Forum: Theology From: Steve C Msg#: 743908 To: Vida Re: Is abortion murder? (Reply to #743886, Reply to #743880, Reply to #743871, R*) (1 reply) VI>SC>VI>Now, see if you can get my point. Under Catholic law, unless I am VI>SC>VI>mistaken it is NOT permissible to have an abortion even if the mother' VI>SC>VI>life is in danger. That's because the Catholics believe the soul ente VI>SC>VI>a fetus's body at the moment of conception and that if you abort a fet VI>SC>VI>you are condemning that soul to Limbo because the soul died before it VI>SC>VI>was baptized. In other words, you can't abort a fetus no matter what VI>SC>VI>because one life can not take precedence over another life. Jewish la VI>SC>VI>however, does not hold the fetus' existence to have the same value as VI>SC>VI>the life of the mother. VI>SC>I have to disagree with you. Having been through this I can speak from VI>SC>experience. VI>SC>In our case the Monsignor said it was ok to have the TOP (termination of VI>SC>pregnancy) but that we should have the body baptized right after VI>SC>delivery and he wanted to say a memorial mass for her as soon as we VI>SC>felt ready for it. VI>SC>The baptism takes care of the soul, and the mother is safe. VI>SC>The Catholic Church's stand is against elective abortions, not VI>SC>medically required ones, and while the overall appearances may not look VI>SC>like it favors the mother at all, the individual priests take all things VI>SC>into consideration before making any suggestions about things such as VI>SC>these. VI>Then I stand corrected!!!! I hope what I wrote previously was not VI>offensive to you. I was just giving my honest impression of what your VI>religion teaches. Obviously, as a nonCatholic I am far from the expert! No offense taken. Unfortunately the most outspoken views on a subject are usually from the extremely conservative who have views that are not the viewsof the group as a whole, and the unhappy who will try to give a group a bad name by misrepresenting them. It is only through conversations like this that we can find the truth. :) --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here. Date: Saturday, January 17, 1998 5:51pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 743914 To: Steve C Re: Is abortion murder? (Reply to #743906, Reply to #743886, Reply to #743880, R*) (1 reply) SC>VI>SC>VI>Now, see if you can get my point. Under Catholic law, unless I am SC>VI>SC>VI>mistaken it is NOT permissible to have an abortion even if the moth SC>VI>SC>VI>life is in danger. That's because the Catholics believe the soul e SC>VI>SC>VI>a fetus's body at the moment of conception and that if you abort a SC>VI>SC>VI>you are condemning that soul to Limbo because the soul died before SC>VI>SC>VI>was baptized. In other words, you can't abort a fetus no matter wh SC>VI>SC>VI>because one life can not take precedence over another life. Jewish SC>VI>SC>VI>however, does not hold the fetus' existence to have the same value SC>VI>SC>VI>the life of the mother. SC>VI>SC>I have to disagree with you. Having been through this I can speak from SC>VI>SC>experience. SC>VI>SC>In our case the Monsignor said it was ok to have the TOP (termination SC>VI>SC>pregnancy) but that we should have the body baptized right after SC>VI>SC>delivery and he wanted to say a memorial mass for her as soon as we SC>VI>SC>felt ready for it. SC>VI>SC>The baptism takes care of the soul, and the mother is safe. SC>VI>SC>The Catholic Church's stand is against elective abortions, not SC>VI>SC>medically required ones, and while the overall appearances may not loo SC>VI>SC>like it favors the mother at all, the individual priests take all thin SC>VI>SC>into consideration before making any suggestions about things such as SC>VI>SC>these. SC>VI>Then I stand corrected!!!! I hope what I wrote previously was not SC>VI>offensive to you. I was just giving my honest impression of what your SC>VI>religion teaches. Obviously, as a nonCatholic I am far from the expert! SC>No offense taken. Unfortunately the most outspoken views on a subject SC>are usually from the extremely conservative who have views that are SC>not the viewsof the group as a whole, and the unhappy who will try to SC>give a group a bad name by misrepresenting them. SC>It is only through conversations like this that we can find the truth. SC>:) SC>--- SC> þ OLX 2.1 TD þ All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here. And then the rest of us get the wrong impression of what your religion teaches, unfortunately! Date: Saturday, January 17, 1998 5:52pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 743915 To: Steve C Re: Is abortion murder? (Reply to #743908, Reply to #743886, Reply to #743880, R*) (1 reply) SC>VI>SC>VI>Now, see if you can get my point. Under Catholic law, unless I am SC>VI>SC>VI>mistaken it is NOT permissible to have an abortion even if the moth SC>VI>SC>VI>life is in danger. That's because the Catholics believe the soul e SC>VI>SC>VI>a fetus's body at the moment of conception and that if you abort a SC>VI>SC>VI>you are condemning that soul to Limbo because the soul died before SC>VI>SC>VI>was baptized. In other words, you can't abort a fetus no matter wh SC>VI>SC>VI>because one life can not take precedence over another life. Jewish SC>VI>SC>VI>however, does not hold the fetus' existence to have the same value SC>VI>SC>VI>the life of the mother. SC>VI>SC>I have to disagree with you. Having been through this I can speak from SC>VI>SC>experience. SC>VI>SC>In our case the Monsignor said it was ok to have the TOP (termination SC>VI>SC>pregnancy) but that we should have the body baptized right after SC>VI>SC>delivery and he wanted to say a memorial mass for her as soon as we SC>VI>SC>felt ready for it. SC>VI>SC>The baptism takes care of the soul, and the mother is safe. SC>VI>SC>The Catholic Church's stand is against elective abortions, not SC>VI>SC>medically required ones, and while the overall appearances may not loo SC>VI>SC>like it favors the mother at all, the individual priests take all thin SC>VI>SC>into consideration before making any suggestions about things such as SC>VI>SC>these. SC>VI>Then I stand corrected!!!! I hope what I wrote previously was not SC>VI>offensive to you. I was just giving my honest impression of what your SC>VI>religion teaches. Obviously, as a nonCatholic I am far from the expert! SC>No offense taken. Unfortunately the most outspoken views on a subject SC>are usually from the extremely conservative who have views that are SC>not the viewsof the group as a whole, and the unhappy who will try to SC>give a group a bad name by misrepresenting them. SC>It is only through conversations like this that we can find the truth. SC>:) SC>--- SC> þ OLX 2.1 TD þ All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here. Absoultely! I am always trying to learn! :) Date: Sunday, January 18, 1998 12:09pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 743927 To: Vida Re: Is abortion murder? (Reply to #743871, Reply to #743835, Reply to #743817, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>Do you follow my reasoning? VI>What you are saying, I believe, is that the preservation of human life VI>is the primary good under Jewish law. Thus, it is permissible to VI>violate normal "rules of behavior" in order to preserve a human life. VI>For example, observing Shabbat is ONE of the most important rules of VI>Jewish law--if not the MOST important. However, if a person's life is VI>at risk it is permissible to descretate the Shabbat to save the person. VI>Thus you can drive a critically ill person to a hospital to save their VI>life on Shabbat. Do I get your point right? Certainly. VI>Now, see if you can get my point. Under Catholic law, unless I am VI>mistaken it is NOT permissible to have an abortion even if the mother's VI>life is in danger. That's because the Catholics believe the soul enters VI>a fetus's body at the moment of conception and that if you abort a fetus VI>you are condemning that soul to Limbo because the soul died before it VI>was baptized. In other words, you can't abort a fetus no matter what VI>because one life can not take precedence over another life. Jewish law, VI>however, does not hold the fetus' existence to have the same value as VI>the life of the mother. I understand that as well. But now, if someone were to ask you, would you say that a Jew is permitted to desecrate the Sabbath, or that a Jew is prohibited from desecrating the Sabbath. The way I was taught was that it is prohibited. Then we learn the exceptions as there are very few exceptions. We do not just come out and say it is permitted. Date: Sunday, January 18, 1998 7:09pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 743931 To: Kkid Re: Is abortion murder? (Reply to #743927, Reply to #743871, Reply to #743835, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>KK>Do you follow my reasoning? KK>VI>What you are saying, I believe, is that the preservation of human life KK>VI>is the primary good under Jewish law. Thus, it is permissible to KK>VI>violate normal "rules of behavior" in order to preserve a human life. KK>VI>For example, observing Shabbat is ONE of the most important rules of KK>VI>Jewish law--if not the MOST important. However, if a person's life is KK>VI>at risk it is permissible to descretate the Shabbat to save the person. KK>VI>Thus you can drive a critically ill person to a hospital to save their KK>VI>life on Shabbat. Do I get your point right? KK>Certainly. KK>VI>Now, see if you can get my point. Under Catholic law, unless I am KK>VI>mistaken it is NOT permissible to have an abortion even if the mother's KK>VI>life is in danger. That's because the Catholics believe the soul enters KK>VI>a fetus's body at the moment of conception and that if you abort a fetus KK>VI>you are condemning that soul to Limbo because the soul died before it KK>VI>was baptized. In other words, you can't abort a fetus no matter what KK>VI>because one life can not take precedence over another life. Jewish law, KK>VI>however, does not hold the fetus' existence to have the same value as KK>VI>the life of the mother. KK>I understand that as well. KK>But now, if someone were to ask you, would you say that a Jew is KK>permitted to desecrate the Sabbath, or that a Jew is prohibited from KK>desecrating the Sabbath. The way I was taught was that it is prohibited. KK>Then we learn the exceptions as there are very few exceptions. We do not KK>just come out and say it is permitted. My learning on this point is different from you. But remember I am being taught from the perspective of rabbis who are trying to get nonObservant Jews to become more observant. So basically what they tell us is take it step by step until you feel ready to observe fully. Date: Monday, January 19, 1998 6:20pm Forum: Theology From: Steve C Msg#: 743941 To: Vida Re: Is abortion murder? (Reply to #743914, Reply to #743906, Reply to #743886, R*) (1 reply) VI>SC>VI>Then I stand corrected!!!! I hope what I wrote previously was not VI>SC>VI>offensive to you. I was just giving my honest impression of what your VI>SC>VI>religion teaches. Obviously, as a nonCatholic I am far from the exper VI>SC>No offense taken. Unfortunately the most outspoken views on a subject VI>SC>are usually from the extremely conservative who have views that are VI>SC>not the viewsof the group as a whole, and the unhappy who will try to VI>SC>give a group a bad name by misrepresenting them. VI>SC>It is only through conversations like this that we can find the truth. VI>SC>:) VI>And then the rest of us get the wrong impression of what your religion VI>teaches, unfortunately! True, but as long as we question these things that don't seem right to us, we will eventually find the truth. * OLX 2.1 TD * Taglines are shorter and harder than epigrams. Date: Monday, January 19, 1998 6:20pm Forum: Theology From: Steve C Msg#: 743942 To: Vida Re: Is abortion murder? (Reply to #743915, Reply to #743908, Reply to #743886, R*) (1 reply) VI>SC>VI>Then I stand corrected!!!! I hope what I wrote previously was not VI>SC>VI>offensive to you. I was just giving my honest impression of what your VI>SC>VI>religion teaches. Obviously, as a nonCatholic I am far from the exper VI>SC>No offense taken. Unfortunately the most outspoken views on a subject VI>SC>are usually from the extremely conservative who have views that are VI>SC>not the viewsof the group as a whole, and the unhappy who will try to VI>SC>give a group a bad name by misrepresenting them. VI>SC>It is only through conversations like this that we can find the truth. VI>SC>:) VI>Absoultely! I am always trying to learn! :) And this is why I think BBSing will survive against the internet, for we couldn't have an intelligent conversation such this on a medium as inpersonnel as the net * OLX 2.1 TD * Hate is NOT a family value! Date: Monday, January 19, 1998 7:09pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 743947 To: Vida Re: Is abortion murder? (Reply to #743931, Reply to #743927, Reply to #743871, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>I understand that as well. VI>KK>But now, if someone were to ask you, would you say that a Jew is VI>KK>permitted to desecrate the Sabbath, or that a Jew is prohibited from VI>KK>desecrating the Sabbath. The way I was taught was that it is prohibited. VI>KK>Then we learn the exceptions as there are very few exceptions. We do not VI>KK>just come out and say it is permitted. VI>My learning on this point is different from you. But remember I am VI>being taught from the perspective of rabbis who are trying to get VI>nonObservant Jews to become more observant. So basically what they tell VI>us is take it step by step until you feel ready to observe fully. I understand that, but when does one find out what "observe fully" means. And what does your answer have to do with my point :-) Date: Monday, January 19, 1998 8:11pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 743955 To: Steve C Re: Is abortion murder? (Reply to #743941, Reply to #743914, Reply to #743906, R*) (1 reply) SC>VI>SC>VI>Then I stand corrected!!!! I hope what I wrote previously was not SC>VI>SC>VI>offensive to you. I was just giving my honest impression of what y SC>VI>SC>VI>religion teaches. Obviously, as a nonCatholic I am far from the ex SC>VI>SC>No offense taken. Unfortunately the most outspoken views on a subject SC>VI>SC>are usually from the extremely conservative who have views that are SC>VI>SC>not the viewsof the group as a whole, and the unhappy who will try to SC>VI>SC>give a group a bad name by misrepresenting them. SC>VI>SC>It is only through conversations like this that we can find the truth. SC>VI>SC>:) SC>VI>And then the rest of us get the wrong impression of what your religion SC>VI>teaches, unfortunately! SC>True, but as long as we question these things that don't seem right to SC>us, we will eventually find the truth. SC> * OLX 2.1 TD * Taglines are shorter and harder than epigrams. I question EVERYTHING! :) Date: Monday, January 19, 1998 8:12pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 743956 To: Steve C Re: Is abortion murder? (Reply to #743942, Reply to #743915, Reply to #743908, R*) (1 reply) SC>VI>SC>VI>Then I stand corrected!!!! I hope what I wrote previously was not SC>VI>SC>VI>offensive to you. I was just giving my honest impression of what y SC>VI>SC>VI>religion teaches. Obviously, as a nonCatholic I am far from the ex SC>VI>SC>No offense taken. Unfortunately the most outspoken views on a subject SC>VI>SC>are usually from the extremely conservative who have views that are SC>VI>SC>not the viewsof the group as a whole, and the unhappy who will try to SC>VI>SC>give a group a bad name by misrepresenting them. SC>VI>SC>It is only through conversations like this that we can find the truth. SC>VI>SC>:) SC>VI>Absoultely! I am always trying to learn! :) SC>And this is why I think BBSing will survive against the internet, for we SC>couldn't have an intelligent conversation such this on a medium as SC>inpersonnel as the net SC> * OLX 2.1 TD * Hate is NOT a family value! That's for sure! Every once in the while I cruise IRC looking for some intelligent conversation. It is hopeless. Truly hopeless. Date: Monday, January 19, 1998 8:15pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 743957 To: Kkid Re: Is abortion murder? (Reply to #743947, Reply to #743931, Reply to #743927, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>KK>I understand that as well. KK>VI>KK>But now, if someone were to ask you, would you say that a Jew is KK>VI>KK>permitted to desecrate the Sabbath, or that a Jew is prohibited from KK>VI>KK>desecrating the Sabbath. The way I was taught was that it is prohibite KK>VI>KK>Then we learn the exceptions as there are very few exceptions. We do n KK>VI>KK>just come out and say it is permitted. KK>VI>My learning on this point is different from you. But remember I am KK>VI>being taught from the perspective of rabbis who are trying to get KK>VI>nonObservant Jews to become more observant. So basically what they tell KK>VI>us is take it step by step until you feel ready to observe fully. KK>I understand that, but when does one find out what "observe fully" KK>means. KK>And what does your answer have to do with my point :-) In my opinion, if a person keeps kosher and observes Sabbos then he/she qualifies as an observant Jew. I don't think that it is ever possible to observe fully! For the Orthodox Jew there will be the Chassid who observes more fully. For the Reform and Conservative there will be the Orthodox. And even for the Hasid there are some Hasidic sects that are stricter than others! Ie. the Satmars! :) Date: Tuesday, January 20, 1998 12:32pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 743968 To: Vida Re: Is abortion murder? (Reply to #743957, Reply to #743947, Reply to #743931, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>I understand that, but when does one find out what "observe fully" VI>KK>means. VI>KK>And what does your answer have to do with my point :-) VI>In my opinion, if a person keeps kosher and observes Sabbos then he/she VI>qualifies as an observant Jew. I don't think that it is ever possible VI>to observe fully! For the Orthodox Jew there will be the Chassid who VI>observes more fully. For the Reform and Conservative there will be the VI>Orthodox. And even for the Hasid there are some Hasidic sects that are VI>stricter than others! Ie. the Satmars! :) Still not my point, althogh I will address yours. My point again is that in the Jewish religion we do not say that eating pork is permitted. We say that a Jew is not allowed to eat pork. Ask any non Jew and the odds are they will know this. However, it IS permitted to eat pork if you are in danger of dying. So are we now going to say to everyone that the eating of pork is permitted if you are a Jew. In the same manner, we say that abortions are not permitted according to Jewish law. Now on to your statement above... A chassid is not someone who OBSERVES more fully. He is one who dresses differentlty and makes sure to limit his interaction with non Jews more than a simple orthodox Jew would. An orthodox Jew and a Hassidic Jew will both agree on what is permissable or not permissable. There is some more to it... Date: Tuesday, January 20, 1998 3:17pm Forum: Theology From: Steve C Msg#: 743978 To: Vida Re: Is abortion murder? (Reply to #743955, Reply to #743941, Reply to #743914, R*) (1 reply) VI>SC>VI>SC>It is only through conversations like this that we can find the tru VI>SC>VI>SC>:) VI>SC>VI>And then the rest of us get the wrong impression of what your religion VI>SC>VI>teaches, unfortunately! VI>SC>True, but as long as we question these things that don't seem right to VI>SC>us, we will eventually find the truth. VI>I question EVERYTHING! :) I know, thats one of the things I like about you. * OLX 2.1 TD * #30-3771: ---- þ 1+2=3; therefore 4+5=6. Date: Tuesday, January 20, 1998 3:17pm Forum: Theology From: Steve C Msg#: 743979 To: Vida Re: Is abortion murder? (Reply to #743956, Reply to #743942, Reply to #743915, R*) (2 replies) VI>SC>And this is why I think BBSing will survive against the internet, for we VI>SC>couldn't have an intelligent conversation such this on a medium as VI>SC>inpersonnel as the net VI>That's for sure! Every once in the while I cruise IRC looking for some VI>intelligent conversation. It is hopeless. Truly hopeless. I don't know about that. Both Nightbird and I have had some INTERESTING conversations on IRC. Perhaps your not talking in the right channels :) * OLX 2.1 TD * I would gladly sue you Tuesday for insulting me today. Date: Tuesday, January 20, 1998 7:46pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 743991 To: Kkid Re: Is abortion murder? (Reply to #743968, Reply to #743957, Reply to #743947, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>KK>I understand that, but when does one find out what "observe fully" KK>VI>KK>means. KK>VI>KK>And what does your answer have to do with my point :-) KK>VI>In my opinion, if a person keeps kosher and observes Sabbos then he/she KK>VI>qualifies as an observant Jew. I don't think that it is ever possible KK>VI>to observe fully! For the Orthodox Jew there will be the Chassid who KK>VI>observes more fully. For the Reform and Conservative there will be the KK>VI>Orthodox. And even for the Hasid there are some Hasidic sects that are KK>VI>stricter than others! Ie. the Satmars! :) KK>Still not my point, althogh I will address yours. KK>My point again is that in the Jewish religion we do not say that eating KK>pork is permitted. We say that a Jew is not allowed to eat pork. Ask any KK>non Jew and the odds are they will know this. However, it IS permitted KK>to eat pork if you are in danger of dying. So are we now going to say to KK>everyone that the eating of pork is permitted if you are a Jew. In the KK>same manner, we say that abortions are not permitted according to Jewish KK>law. Clearly pork is not a kosher food so eating pork is not permitted under Jewish law. Even I understand that. :) KK>Now on to your statement above... KK>A chassid is not someone who OBSERVES more fully. He is one who dresses KK>differentlty and makes sure to limit his interaction with non Jews more KK>than a simple orthodox Jew would. An orthodox Jew and a Hassidic Jew KK>will both agree on what is permissable or not permissable. There is some KK>more to it... Maybe under your definition of Orthodox Jew this is true, but not under mine! :) To my way of thinking most Hasadic Jews are "ultra Orthodox" or ultra observant. Much more so than "modern Orthodox Jews". Date: Tuesday, January 20, 1998 7:47pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 743992 To: Steve C Re: Is abortion murder? (Reply to #743978, Reply to #743955, Reply to #743941, R*) SC>VI>SC>VI>SC>It is only through conversations like this that we can find the SC>VI>SC>VI>SC>:) SC>VI>SC>VI>And then the rest of us get the wrong impression of what your relig SC>VI>SC>VI>teaches, unfortunately! SC>VI>SC>True, but as long as we question these things that don't seem right to SC>VI>SC>us, we will eventually find the truth. SC>VI>I question EVERYTHING! :) SC>I know, thats one of the things I like about you. SC> * OLX 2.1 TD * #30-3771: ---- þ 1+2=3; therefore 4+5=6. Thank you! I try! :) Date: Tuesday, January 20, 1998 7:47pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 743993 To: Steve C Re: Is abortion murder? (Reply to #743979, Reply to #743956, Reply to #743942, R*) (1 reply) SC>VI>SC>And this is why I think BBSing will survive against the internet, for SC>VI>SC>couldn't have an intelligent conversation such this on a medium as SC>VI>SC>inpersonnel as the net SC>VI>That's for sure! Every once in the while I cruise IRC looking for some SC>VI>intelligent conversation. It is hopeless. Truly hopeless. SC>I don't know about that. Both Nightbird and I have had some INTERESTING SC>conversations on IRC. SC>Perhaps your not talking in the right channels :) SC> * OLX 2.1 TD * I would gladly sue you Tuesday for insulting me today. Any suggestions? I promise not to abandon AH! :) Date: Wednesday, January 21, 1998 11:34am Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 744022 To: Vida Re: Is abortion murder? (Reply to #743991, Reply to #743968, Reply to #743957, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>Still not my point, althogh I will address yours. VI>KK>My point again is that in the Jewish religion we do not say that eating VI>KK>pork is permitted. We say that a Jew is not allowed to eat pork. Ask any VI>KK>non Jew and the odds are they will know this. However, it IS permitted VI>KK>to eat pork if you are in danger of dying. So are we now going to say to VI>KK>everyone that the eating of pork is permitted if you are a Jew. In the VI>KK>same manner, we say that abortions are not permitted according to Jewish VI>KK>law. VI>Clearly pork is not a kosher food so eating pork is not permitted under VI>Jewish law. Even I understand that. :) Then will you agree with me that abortions are not permitted under Jewish law :-) VI>KK>Now on to your statement above... VI>KK>A chassid is not someone who OBSERVES more fully. He is one who dresses VI>KK>differentlty and makes sure to limit his interaction with non Jews more VI>KK>than a simple orthodox Jew would. An orthodox Jew and a Hassidic Jew VI>KK>will both agree on what is permissable or not permissable. There is some VI>KK>more to it... VI>Maybe under your definition of Orthodox Jew this is true, but not under VI>mine! :) To my way of thinking most Hasadic Jews are "ultra Orthodox" VI>or ultra observant. Much more so than "modern Orthodox Jews". You are judging the book by its cover and not its contents :-) Date: Wednesday, January 21, 1998 1:19pm Forum: Theology From: Steve C Msg#: 744031 To: Vida Re: Is abortion murder? (Reply to #743993, Reply to #743979, Reply to #743956, R*) VI>SC>VI>That's for sure! Every once in the while I cruise IRC looking for som VI>SC>VI>intelligent conversation. It is hopeless. Truly hopeless. VI>SC>I don't know about that. Both Nightbird and I have had some INTERESTING VI>SC>conversations on IRC. VI>SC>Perhaps your not talking in the right channels :) VI>Any suggestions? I promise not to abandon AH! :) Depends on what you're looking for. Nightbird and I are in some mutual channels (bbw, bbwsex, bbwflirts) plus we have our own interests. Let me know what you're looking for, (if its of a personal nature, reply in private EMail) and I'll try to find a few for you. * OLX 2.1 TD * LEFT BLANK FOR A GOOD REASON! Date: Wednesday, January 21, 1998 6:42pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 744043 To: Kkid Re: Is abortion murder? (Reply to #744022, Reply to #743991, Reply to #743968, R*) KK>VI>KK>Still not my point, althogh I will address yours. KK>VI>KK>My point again is that in the Jewish religion we do not say that eatin KK>VI>KK>pork is permitted. We say that a Jew is not allowed to eat pork. Ask a KK>VI>KK>non Jew and the odds are they will know this. However, it IS permitted KK>VI>KK>to eat pork if you are in danger of dying. So are we now going to say KK>VI>KK>everyone that the eating of pork is permitted if you are a Jew. In the KK>VI>KK>same manner, we say that abortions are not permitted according to Jewi KK>VI>KK>law. KK>VI>Clearly pork is not a kosher food so eating pork is not permitted under KK>VI>Jewish law. Even I understand that. :) KK>Then will you agree with me that abortions are not permitted under I am not learned enough in Jewish law to make this determination. I would have to study much, much more to make any statement with respect to this issue. KK>Jewish law :-) KK>VI>KK>Now on to your statement above... KK>VI>KK>A chassid is not someone who OBSERVES more fully. He is one who dresse KK>VI>KK>differentlty and makes sure to limit his interaction with non Jews mor KK>VI>KK>than a simple orthodox Jew would. An orthodox Jew and a Hassidic Jew KK>VI>KK>will both agree on what is permissable or not permissable. There is so KK>VI>KK>more to it... KK>VI>Maybe under your definition of Orthodox Jew this is true, but not under KK>VI>mine! :) To my way of thinking most Hasadic Jews are "ultra Orthodox" KK>VI>or ultra observant. Much more so than "modern Orthodox Jews". KK>You are judging the book by its cover and not its contents :-) Again, I have little personal knowledge or experience in this area. :) Date: Wednesday, January 21, 1998 8:46pm Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 744046 To: Steve C Re: Is abortion murder? (Reply to #743979, Reply to #743956, Reply to #743942, R*) (1 reply) SC>VI>SC>And this is why I think BBSing will survive against the internet, for SC>VI>SC>couldn't have an intelligent conversation such this on a medium as SC>VI>SC>inpersonnel as the net SC>VI>That's for sure! Every once in the while I cruise IRC looking for some SC>VI>intelligent conversation. It is hopeless. Truly hopeless. SC>I don't know about that. Both Nightbird and I have had some INTERESTING SC>conversations on IRC. SC>Perhaps your not talking in the right channels :) True, very True! --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ --T-A+G-L-I+N-E--+M-E-A+S-U-R+I-N-G+--G-A+U-G-E-- Date: Thursday, January 22, 1998 5:46pm Forum: Theology From: Steve C Msg#: 744058 To: Nightbird Re: Is abortion murder? (Reply to #744046, Reply to #743979, Reply to #743956, R*) NI>SC>I don't know about that. Both Nightbird and I have had some INTERESTING NI>SC>conversations on IRC. NI>SC>Perhaps your not talking in the right channels :) NI>True, very True! I just LOVE some of the channels you are in :) * OLX 2.1 TD * My Spell Checker tolled me their aare know errors hear. Date: Friday, January 16, 1998 6:56am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 744345 To: ** ALL ** Re: Oral Torah (Fw by Calvin, Reply to #743834, Reply to #743826, Reply*) -------------< COMMENTS BY Calvin >-------------- TO: Kkid ----------< END OF COMMENTS BY Calvin >---------- KK>ED>K >ED>Just a comment here. I can't help but note that you (Vida) are usin KK>ED>K >ED>capitalized form "Orthodox" and Sheldon is using lowercase "orthodo KK>ED>K >ED>Mebbe you two are talking about different things? KK>ED>K > KK>ED>K >I was just too busy to capitalize. And I am not sure it has to be KK>ED>K >capitalized. I was using it as an adjective rather than a noun. KK>ED>That's exactly what I'm getting at. Vida was using it as a noun, a proper KK>ED>noun, so she capitalized it. You weren't too busy to capitalize, you were KK>ED>using it as an adjective so you didn't. (The weird sound you hear is my KK>ED>11th grade English teacher spinning in her grave to hear me use such KK>ED>terms.) (Come to think of it, remembering her, I am pleased that she is KK>ED>engaging in that activity.) This is pretty thick territory, but when I re KK>ED>the original exchange, that is exactly what I thought was happening. KK>ED>Do you guys see what I'm getting at. KK>Hmmm...hopefully I'll come out ahead in this exchange :-) KK>I see anyone as being from a Jewish mother as being a Jew. KK>I then use adjectives to describe how religious (or irreligious) that KK>individual may be. KK>I do not consider there being 3 or more different entities. THE ORTHODOX KK>JEW, THE REFORM JEW, etc... KK>But then again I hope tha Vida agrees with me. So what is your point :-) I disagree with your statement to the extent that I don't believe that an Orthodox Jew is necessarily more religious than a Reform Jew. There are many deeply religious, Jewishly committed Reform Jews. The difference between the three movements has to do with the extent to which the movements feel that traditional Jewish law is binding. It really has to do with a disagreement with the extent of G*d's revelation at Mount Sinai. Sheldon will correct me if I am wrong, but Orthodox Jews believe that G*d's revelation at Mount Sinai includes what Orthodox Jews call the "Oral Torah", as well as the written Torah. Conservative and Reform Jews reject that notion. Date: Friday, January 16, 1998 6:59am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 744346 To: ** ALL ** Re: Five Jewish movements (Fw by Calvin, Reply to #743859, Reply to #743834, Reply*) -------------< COMMENTS BY Calvin >-------------- TO: Editor ----------< END OF COMMENTS BY Calvin >---------- ED>K >Hmmm...hopefully I'll come out ahead in this exchange :-) ED>K >I see anyone as being from a Jewish mother as being a Jew. ED>K >I then use adjectives to describe how religious (or irreligious) that ED>K >individual may be. ED>K >I do not consider there being 3 or more different entities. THE ORTHOD ED>K >JEW, THE REFORM JEW, etc... ED>K >But then again I hope tha Vida agrees with me. So what is your point : ED>My point is that because you do not consider there to be more than one ED>entity, you see a binary condition. (Please... I'm not being judgemental ED>here, just commenting.) So to you, orthodox is how you follow your faith. ED>If you do not follow your faith, your way, you cannot be orthodox. The ED>terms "orthodox" and "observant" are practically synonyms.One either does, ED>or does not. ED>With Vida, accepting three (or more, I don't know), classes of Jews, it has ED>to first be classified, "Orthodox" (or other), and then the adjective can ED>be applied. ED>Ah well.... I apologize for attack of picayunity. I don't know if I'm ED>stating the obvious or not. ED>--- ED> þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Actually, I would say there are five Jewish movements or strains. Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist and Jewish Renewal. Sometimes they can overlap. For example, BJ is a Conservative synagogue with Jewish Renewal elements. There is a LOT of overlap between the Reconstructionist movements and the Renewal movements. Date: Wednesday, January 7, 1998 10:12pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 744394 To: ** ALL ** Re: Created in G*d's image (Copy by Calvin, Reply to #743563, Reply to #743411, Rep*) KK>SF>KK>SF>KK>I am not a biologist. KK>SF>KK>SF>KK>Because you do not remember chosing something does not mean you KK>SF>KK>SF>KK>born with that preference. KK>SF>KK>SF>Same applies to you, by that "logic:. KK>SF>KK>I still have no idea what your point is. KK>SF>If I chose then you chose, and if I did not chose you did not chose. KK>SF>Sexual orientation does not one set of rules for straights, others for KK>SF>gays/lesbians, others for bi's, etc. KK>I think your statement is silly! KK>I guess if one likes having sex with children, or with animals then you KK>claim they were born that way as well? KK>The part I find silly is that you really believe that everyone was KK>created equally. How can you deny that everyone was created equally? Doesn't the Bible say that we are created in G*d's image? Date: Sunday, February 8, 1998 9:02am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 744573 To: Kkid Re: The laws of Nidah (2 replies) Well, I finally got around and posted an inquiry re: the laws of Nidah on the Tor-ch e mail list. You are probably not familiar with Tor-ch but it is the semi-offical e mail list of the Conservative movement. Indeed, Torch stands for Torah from the Conservative Hebrew prespective. Tor-ch is put out on the Jewish Theological Seminary's (the official Seminary of the Conservative movement) so it really is more, or less semi official. I have gotten a number of responses so far, and the consensus to my inquiry is alas, yes, the laws of Nidah are applicable. I will repost my original inquiry and a fairly coherent response below. While the poster in this response does not specifically identify himself as a rabbi I assume that he is a rabbi from his snail mail address which appears in the response. And to put my original inquiry in prespective there was a post to the list annoucing a web page dedicated to the laws of nidah (http://www.milknhoney.co.il\holy) and I made my inquiry in response to that announcement. My original post to Tor-ch and the response appears below: >The annoucement which appeared on this list regarding a web site dedicated >to the laws of Niddah made me wondered if the Conservative movement has >taken any position as to whether the Laws of Niddah are binding upon Jewish >women. > >Does any body on the list know what the offical position of the Conservative >movement is regarding the Laws of Niddah? While I must admit to ignorance >concerning the specifics f the laws of niddah, as a Jewish feminist I find >the concept that menstruation renders a female "unclean" to be >irretrievably sexist and patriachial. The official position is that the laws still apply. As for the use of the term "unclean" that is unfortunate, as the concept has nothing to do with cleanliness from anyone's standard. How and why the laws were developed is beyond me. However, to many the idea bears with it a concept of empowerment, and if anything fits the feminist concepts of female value and equality regardless of gender nicely. For nearly two weeks each month the woman is completely in control of her own body. Although still married, the husband has no rights toward her body, which is different from other peoples where wives were nearly considered chattle property. The nidah period to many is also a period of reallignment and rejuvenation. As her procreative nature is renewed, so will the relationship between husband and wife be restored as they resume marrital life after abstinence, a forced monthly honeymoon. The dunking in a pool of natural, flowing water is also symbolic. All of earth was borne from primordial waters. Further, the act of bearing children is closely related to their safe containment in the watery, amniotic fluid. Just as a newborn child is fresh and pure when emerging from the water of its mother's womb, so too is the woman who takes advantage of the ritual bath. Whether one fulfills the obligation or not is a personal choice. However, it is one obligation so special to women only, in an age when women look to take upon more and more traditions, it would seem that this one might be ready for greater popularity. Edwin Frankel Edwin & Debbie Frankel c/o 7854 Dawn Road Cincinnati, Ohio 45237 513-821-4456 Talmud Torah K'neged Kulam In response to Rabbi Frankel I would say how can he say that the laws of Nidah give women more control over her sexuality when a woman has absolutely no control over when her menstrual period begins and when it ends? And what if the woman desires sex during her menstrual period? I have found from my own personal experience that I have INCREASED sexual desire during my menstrual period and that I desire sex MORE, not less. Date: Monday, February 9, 1998 2:48pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 744595 To: Vida Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #744573) (2 replies) There is a related thread developing on the Frumgays list about wether or not a lesbian couple needs to follow the laws of Niddah and/or all the other laws of "family purity( taharat hamishpachah ) apply to both lesbian and gay couples. Date: Monday, February 9, 1998 6:43pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 744602 To: Steve Flur Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #744595, Reply to #744573) (2 replies) SF>There is a related thread developing on the Frumgays list about wether SF>or not a lesbian couple needs to follow the laws of Niddah and/or all SF>the other laws of "family purity( taharat hamishpachah ) apply to both SF>lesbian and gay couples. How could the laws of niddah possibly apply to a gay male couple? And what other law of "family purity" could they possibly be talking about? So is there any general consensus on the frumgays list concerning whether a frum lesbian has to abstain from sex with her female lover during her period ? Date: Monday, February 9, 1998 8:55pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 744604 To: Vida Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #744573) (1 reply) VI>In response to Rabbi Frankel I would say how can he say that the laws of VI>Nidah give women more control over her sexuality when a woman has VI>absolutely no control over when her menstrual period begins and when it VI>ends? And what if the woman desires sex during her menstrual period? I VI>have found from my own personal experience that I have INCREASED sexual VI>desire during my menstrual period and that I desire sex MORE, not less. Thanks for asking the question. I did happen to like the response. Think about it a bit more and see if you will change your mind. I hear what you are saying, but many laws in the Jewish religion will limit your ability to do what you want to do. That should not be a factor in deciding whether or not it is a good law. It IS difficult to judge a law properly especially if it goes against your desires. After all we are only human,and subject to desires. Date: Monday, February 9, 1998 8:57pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 744605 To: Steve Flur Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #744595, Reply to #744573) (1 reply) SF>There is a related thread developing on the Frumgays list about wether SF>or not a lesbian couple needs to follow the laws of Niddah and/or all SF>the other laws of "family purity( taharat hamishpachah ) apply to both SF>lesbian and gay couples. All I can say to that is....unbelievable! Date: Monday, February 9, 1998 8:59pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 744606 To: Vida Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #744602, Reply to #744595, Reply to #744573) (1 reply) VI>SF>There is a related thread developing on the Frumgays list about wether VI>SF>or not a lesbian couple needs to follow the laws of Niddah and/or all VI>SF>the other laws of "family purity( taharat hamishpachah ) apply to both VI>SF>lesbian and gay couples. VI>How could the laws of niddah possibly apply to a gay male couple? And VI>what other law of "family purity" could they possibly be talking about? Steve only mentioned lesbian couples in terms fo the laws of Niddah :-) VI>So is there any general consensus on the frumgays list concerning VI>whether a frum lesbian has to abstain from sex with her female lover VI>during her period ? I did not realize that a frum lesbian can become pregnant while having sex with her female lover :-) Date: Tuesday, February 10, 1998 6:26am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 744612 To: Kkid Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #744604, Reply to #744573) KK>VI>In response to Rabbi Frankel I would say how can he say that the laws of KK>VI>Nidah give women more control over her sexuality when a woman has KK>VI>absolutely no control over when her menstrual period begins and when it KK>VI>ends? And what if the woman desires sex during her menstrual period? I KK>VI>have found from my own personal experience that I have INCREASED sexual KK>VI>desire during my menstrual period and that I desire sex MORE, not less. KK>Thanks for asking the question. I did happen to like the response. KK>Think about it a bit more and see if you will change your mind. I hear KK>what you are saying, but many laws in the Jewish religion will limit KK>your ability to do what you want to do. That should not be a factor in KK>deciding whether or not it is a good law. It IS difficult to judge a law KK>properly especially if it goes against your desires. After all we are KK>only human,and subject to desires. I am thinking about it and will continue to think. But I am still feel that my "inherent feminist sense" about the laws of nidah is correct. Date: Tuesday, February 10, 1998 6:29am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 744613 To: Kkid Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #744606, Reply to #744602, Reply to #744595, R*) KK>VI>SF>There is a related thread developing on the Frumgays list about wether KK>VI>SF>or not a lesbian couple needs to follow the laws of Niddah and/or all KK>VI>SF>the other laws of "family purity( taharat hamishpachah ) apply to both KK>VI>SF>lesbian and gay couples. KK>VI>How could the laws of niddah possibly apply to a gay male couple? And KK>VI>what other law of "family purity" could they possibly be talking about? KK>Steve only mentioned lesbian couples in terms fo the laws of Niddah :-) You noticed that. :) KK>VI>So is there any general consensus on the frumgays list concerning KK>VI>whether a frum lesbian has to abstain from sex with her female lover KK>VI>during her period ? KK>I did not realize that a frum lesbian can become pregnant while having KK>sex with her female lover :-) That's a physical impossibility. But I have known several lesbian couples who made arrangements with a sperm donor to impregnante one of the women. And I have also known couples where the same donor, a few years later, donates sperm to impregnante the other woman. Date: Tuesday, February 10, 1998 10:20am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 744627 To: Vida Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #744602, Reply to #744595, Reply to #744573) (1 reply) VI>SF>There is a related thread developing on the Frumgays list about wether VI>SF>or not a lesbian couple needs to follow the laws of Niddah and/or all VI>SF>the other laws of "family purity( taharat hamishpachah ) apply to both VI>SF>lesbian and gay couples. VI>How could the laws of niddah possibly apply to a gay male couple? And VI>what other law of "family purity" could they possibly be talking about? VI>So is there any general consensus on the frumgays list concerning VI>whether a frum lesbian has to abstain from sex with her female lover VI>during her period ? The gay male couples are generally discussing symbolically refraining from sexual contact for a week in honor of the Niddah laws. As with any issue, there is nothing near a concensus of the applicabilty of Niddah laws to lesbians and gays. Date: Tuesday, February 10, 1998 10:22am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 744628 To: Kkid Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #744605, Reply to #744595, Reply to #744573) (1 reply) KK>SF>There is a related thread developing on the Frumgays list about wether KK>SF>or not a lesbian couple needs to follow the laws of Niddah and/or all KK>SF>the other laws of "family purity( taharat hamishpachah ) apply to both KK>SF>lesbian and gay couples. KK>All I can say to that is....unbelievable! Why is it so unbelievable that frum jews who happen to be lesbian and gay still do their best to observe. Date: Tuesday, February 10, 1998 6:30pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 744632 To: Steve Flur Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #744627, Reply to #744602, Reply to #744595, R*) (2 replies) SF>VI>SF>There is a related thread developing on the Frumgays list about wether SF>VI>SF>or not a lesbian couple needs to follow the laws of Niddah and/or all SF>VI>SF>the other laws of "family purity( taharat hamishpachah ) apply to both SF>VI>SF>lesbian and gay couples. SF>VI>How could the laws of niddah possibly apply to a gay male couple? And SF>VI>what other law of "family purity" could they possibly be talking about? SF>VI>So is there any general consensus on the frumgays list concerning SF>VI>whether a frum lesbian has to abstain from sex with her female lover SF>VI>during her period ? SF>The gay male couples are generally discussing symbolically refraining SF>from sexual contact for a week in honor of the Niddah laws. As with any SF>issue, there is nothing near a concensus of the applicabilty of Niddah SF>laws to lesbians and gays. I would think that it is pretty clear that the niddah laws only apply to heterosexual maried couples. And as a feminist, I would rather see them rescinded, rather than extended. Date: Tuesday, February 10, 1998 7:10pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 744633 To: Steve Flur Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #744628, Reply to #744605, Reply to #744595, R*) (1 reply) SF>KK>SF>There is a related thread developing on the Frumgays list about wether SF>KK>SF>or not a lesbian couple needs to follow the laws of Niddah and/or all SF>KK>SF>the other laws of "family purity( taharat hamishpachah ) apply to both SF>KK>SF>lesbian and gay couples. SF>KK>All I can say to that is....unbelievable! SF>Why is it so unbelievable that frum jews who happen to be lesbian and SF>gay still do their best to observe. Hmmm....to the best of my knowledge, I never said that. I'll go one better than that. I never made that statement. BTW that is why I find it extremely difficult to have a conversation with you. You have a habit of projecting. A logical response from you should have been to ask me WHAT exactly do I find unbelieveable. But please don't bother asking me that as I will not bother answering you. Date: Tuesday, February 10, 1998 7:11pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 744634 To: Vida Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #744632, Reply to #744627, Reply to #744602, R*) VI>I would think that it is pretty clear that the niddah laws only apply VI>to heterosexual maried couples. And as a feminist, I would rather see VI>them rescinded, rather than extended. Pretty clear to me as well. Date: Wednesday, February 11, 1998 9:35am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 744637 To: Vida Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #744632, Reply to #744627, Reply to #744602, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>There is a related thread developing on the Frumgays list about wet VI>SF>VI>SF>or not a lesbian couple needs to follow the laws of Niddah and/or a VI>SF>VI>SF>the other laws of "family purity( taharat hamishpachah ) apply to b VI>SF>VI>SF>lesbian and gay couples. VI>SF>VI>How could the laws of niddah possibly apply to a gay male couple? And VI>SF>VI>what other law of "family purity" could they possibly be talking about VI>SF>VI>So is there any general consensus on the frumgays list concerning VI>SF>VI>whether a frum lesbian has to abstain from sex with her female lover VI>SF>VI>during her period ? VI>SF>The gay male couples are generally discussing symbolically refraining VI>SF>from sexual contact for a week in honor of the Niddah laws. As with any VI>SF>issue, there is nothing near a concensus of the applicabilty of Niddah VI>SF>laws to lesbians and gays. VI>I would think that it is pretty clear that the niddah laws only apply VI>to heterosexual maried couples. And as a feminist, I would rather see VI>them rescinded, rather than extended. That was how the laws were written. Do not forget, within a frum discussion, the goal is how to fit lives into the law rather than changing the law. Date: Wednesday, February 11, 1998 9:36am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 744638 To: Kkid Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #744633, Reply to #744628, Reply to #744605, R*) KK>SF>KK>SF>There is a related thread developing on the Frumgays list about wet KK>SF>KK>SF>or not a lesbian couple needs to follow the laws of Niddah and/or a KK>SF>KK>SF>the other laws of "family purity( taharat hamishpachah ) apply to b KK>SF>KK>SF>lesbian and gay couples. KK>SF>KK>All I can say to that is....unbelievable! KK>SF>Why is it so unbelievable that frum jews who happen to be lesbian and KK>SF>gay still do their best to observe. KK>Hmmm....to the best of my knowledge, I never said that. I'll go one KK>better than that. I never made that statement. KK>BTW that is why I find it extremely difficult to have a conversation KK>with you. You have a habit of projecting. KK>A logical response from you should have been to ask me WHAT exactly do I KK>find unbelieveable. But please don't bother asking me that as I will KK>not bother answering you. Next time tell what I am allowed to think. Date: Thursday, February 12, 1998 7:03am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 744653 To: Steve Flur Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #744637, Reply to #744632, Reply to #744627, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>I would think that it is pretty clear that the niddah laws only apply SF>VI>to heterosexual maried couples. And as a feminist, I would rather see SF>VI>them rescinded, rather than extended. SF>That was how the laws were written. Do not forget, within a frum SF>discussion, the goal is how to fit lives into the law rather than SF>changing the law. Yes, but if the laws were written in one context isn't it changing the law to apply it to another context? Isn't one of the purposes of the laws of niddah to try to maximize the chances that any sexual relations result in a pregnancy since the period of "permitted" sexual contact more or less coincedes with a woman's most fertile time of the month? Date: Thursday, February 12, 1998 8:57am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 744656 To: Vida Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #744653, Reply to #744637, Reply to #744632, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>I would think that it is pretty clear that the niddah laws only apply VI>SF>VI>to heterosexual maried couples. And as a feminist, I would rather see VI>SF>VI>them rescinded, rather than extended. VI>SF>That was how the laws were written. Do not forget, within a frum VI>SF>discussion, the goal is how to fit lives into the law rather than VI>SF>changing the law. VI>Yes, but if the laws were written in one context isn't it changing the VI>law to apply it to another context? Isn't one of the purposes of the VI>laws of niddah to try to maximize the chances that any sexual relations VI>result in a pregnancy since the period of "permitted" sexual contact VI>more or less coincedes with a woman's most fertile time of the month? Within frum circles, the need to find reasons for laws is much less than need you appear to feel. When a lesbian couple discuss following the Niddah laws, they are well aware that the literal text does not apply to them, however, they still feel the spirit of the law. Date: Friday, February 13, 1998 3:14am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 744668 To: Steve Flur Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #744656, Reply to #744653, Reply to #744637, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>I would think that it is pretty clear that the niddah laws only app SF>VI>SF>VI>to heterosexual maried couples. And as a feminist, I would rather SF>VI>SF>VI>them rescinded, rather than extended. SF>VI>SF>That was how the laws were written. Do not forget, within a frum SF>VI>SF>discussion, the goal is how to fit lives into the law rather than SF>VI>SF>changing the law. SF>VI>Yes, but if the laws were written in one context isn't it changing the SF>VI>law to apply it to another context? Isn't one of the purposes of the SF>VI>laws of niddah to try to maximize the chances that any sexual relations SF>VI>result in a pregnancy since the period of "permitted" sexual contact SF>VI>more or less coincedes with a woman's most fertile time of the month? SF>Within frum circles, the need to find reasons for laws is much less than SF>need you appear to feel. When a lesbian couple discuss following the SF>Niddah laws, they are well aware that the literal text does not apply to SF>them, however, they still feel the spirit of the law. Since I'm not frum I will never fully be able to put myself in the place of a frum lesbian. However, it is my understanding that the laws of niddah have no applicality in a woman to woman situation. The whole idea is to save you poor, weak men from the "pollution" of the "impurity" of menstrual blood. Additionally, what happens to a couple if the two women's cycles don't coincede? While most of the time it happens that in lesbian couples the cycles of the women come together that isn't always 100 percent true and it doesn't happen all the time. From my personal experience, I have had different cycles than my female lover--especially when I was with Gerri who had a very irregular cycle because she was in the midst of "the change of life". In situations where the two female lovers have different menstrual cycles there might be a month, or even months, where under the laws of Niddah the two lovers couldn't have sex at all--especially since it is my understanding that the laws of Niddah don't just prohibit sexual contact during a woman's menstrual flow but also for a period of "white days" after the flow stops. Date: Friday, February 13, 1998 9:38am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 744682 To: Vida Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #744668, Reply to #744656, Reply to #744653, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I would think that it is pretty clear that the niddah laws only VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>to heterosexual maried couples. And as a feminist, I would rath VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>them rescinded, rather than extended. VI>SF>VI>SF>That was how the laws were written. Do not forget, within a frum VI>SF>VI>SF>discussion, the goal is how to fit lives into the law rather than VI>SF>VI>SF>changing the law. VI>SF>VI>Yes, but if the laws were written in one context isn't it changing the VI>SF>VI>law to apply it to another context? Isn't one of the purposes of the VI>SF>VI>laws of niddah to try to maximize the chances that any sexual relation VI>SF>VI>result in a pregnancy since the period of "permitted" sexual contact VI>SF>VI>more or less coincedes with a woman's most fertile time of the month? VI>SF>Within frum circles, the need to find reasons for laws is much less than VI>SF>need you appear to feel. When a lesbian couple discuss following the VI>SF>Niddah laws, they are well aware that the literal text does not apply to VI>SF>them, however, they still feel the spirit of the law. VI>Since I'm not frum I will never fully be able to put myself in the place VI>of a frum lesbian. However, it is my understanding that the laws of VI>niddah have no applicality in a woman to woman situation. The whole VI>idea is to save you poor, weak men from the "pollution" of the VI>"impurity" of menstrual blood. Additionally, what happens to a couple VI>if the two women's cycles don't coincede? VI>While most of the time it happens that in lesbian couples the cycles of VI>the women come together that isn't always 100 percent true and it VI>doesn't happen all the time. From my personal experience, I have had VI>different cycles than my female lover--especially when I was with Gerri VI>who had a very irregular cycle because she was in the midst of "the VI>change of life". In situations where the two female lovers have VI>different menstrual cycles there might be a month, or even months, where VI>under the laws of Niddah the two lovers couldn't have sex at VI>all--especially since it is my understanding that the laws of Niddah VI>don't just prohibit sexual contact during a woman's menstrual flow but VI>also for a period of "white days" after the flow stops. Some list members did question the lesbian couple who first said that the try to observe Niddah what they do about cycles that do not coincide. To date I have not seen their response. Date: Saturday, February 14, 1998 1:06am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 744687 To: Steve Flur Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #744682, Reply to #744668, Reply to #744656, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I would think that it is pretty clear that the niddah laws on SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>to heterosexual maried couples. And as a feminist, I would r SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>them rescinded, rather than extended. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>That was how the laws were written. Do not forget, within a frum SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>discussion, the goal is how to fit lives into the law rather tha SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>changing the law. SF>VI>SF>VI>Yes, but if the laws were written in one context isn't it changing SF>VI>SF>VI>law to apply it to another context? Isn't one of the purposes of t SF>VI>SF>VI>laws of niddah to try to maximize the chances that any sexual relat SF>VI>SF>VI>result in a pregnancy since the period of "permitted" sexual contac SF>VI>SF>VI>more or less coincedes with a woman's most fertile time of the mont SF>VI>SF>Within frum circles, the need to find reasons for laws is much less th SF>VI>SF>need you appear to feel. When a lesbian couple discuss following the SF>VI>SF>Niddah laws, they are well aware that the literal text does not apply SF>VI>SF>them, however, they still feel the spirit of the law. SF>VI>Since I'm not frum I will never fully be able to put myself in the place SF>VI>of a frum lesbian. However, it is my understanding that the laws of SF>VI>niddah have no applicality in a woman to woman situation. The whole SF>VI>idea is to save you poor, weak men from the "pollution" of the SF>VI>"impurity" of menstrual blood. Additionally, what happens to a couple SF>VI>if the two women's cycles don't coincede? SF>VI>While most of the time it happens that in lesbian couples the cycles of SF>VI>the women come together that isn't always 100 percent true and it SF>VI>doesn't happen all the time. From my personal experience, I have had SF>VI>different cycles than my female lover--especially when I was with Gerri SF>VI>who had a very irregular cycle because she was in the midst of "the SF>VI>change of life". In situations where the two female lovers have SF>VI>different menstrual cycles there might be a month, or even months, where SF>VI>under the laws of Niddah the two lovers couldn't have sex at SF>VI>all--especially since it is my understanding that the laws of Niddah SF>VI>don't just prohibit sexual contact during a woman's menstrual flow but SF>VI>also for a period of "white days" after the flow stops. SF>Some list members did question the lesbian couple who first said that SF>the try to observe Niddah what they do about cycles that do not SF>coincide. To date I have not seen their response. Believe it can happen. Although usually lesbians tend to have cycles that run together. It just seems to usually happen that when women live together their cycles come in sync. But not always. Especially when one of the two women has a cycle that is being disrupted by abnormal hormone levels. Date: Tuesday, February 17, 1998 11:29am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 744711 To: Vida Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #744687, Reply to #744682, Reply to #744668, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I would think that it is pretty clear that the niddah laws VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>to heterosexual maried couples. And as a feminist, I woul VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>them rescinded, rather than extended. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>That was how the laws were written. Do not forget, within a f VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>discussion, the goal is how to fit lives into the law rather VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>changing the law. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Yes, but if the laws were written in one context isn't it changi VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>law to apply it to another context? Isn't one of the purposes o VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>laws of niddah to try to maximize the chances that any sexual re VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>result in a pregnancy since the period of "permitted" sexual con VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>more or less coincedes with a woman's most fertile time of the m VI>SF>VI>SF>Within frum circles, the need to find reasons for laws is much less VI>SF>VI>SF>need you appear to feel. When a lesbian couple discuss following th VI>SF>VI>SF>Niddah laws, they are well aware that the literal text does not app VI>SF>VI>SF>them, however, they still feel the spirit of the law. VI>SF>VI>Since I'm not frum I will never fully be able to put myself in the pla VI>SF>VI>of a frum lesbian. However, it is my understanding that the laws of VI>SF>VI>niddah have no applicality in a woman to woman situation. The whole VI>SF>VI>idea is to save you poor, weak men from the "pollution" of the VI>SF>VI>"impurity" of menstrual blood. Additionally, what happens to a couple VI>SF>VI>if the two women's cycles don't coincede? VI>SF>VI>While most of the time it happens that in lesbian couples the cycles o VI>SF>VI>the women come together that isn't always 100 percent true and it VI>SF>VI>doesn't happen all the time. From my personal experience, I have had VI>SF>VI>different cycles than my female lover--especially when I was with Gerr VI>SF>VI>who had a very irregular cycle because she was in the midst of "the VI>SF>VI>change of life". In situations where the two female lovers have VI>SF>VI>different menstrual cycles there might be a month, or even months, whe VI>SF>VI>under the laws of Niddah the two lovers couldn't have sex at VI>SF>VI>all--especially since it is my understanding that the laws of Niddah VI>SF>VI>don't just prohibit sexual contact during a woman's menstrual flow but VI>SF>VI>also for a period of "white days" after the flow stops. VI>SF>Some list members did question the lesbian couple who first said that VI>SF>the try to observe Niddah what they do about cycles that do not VI>SF>coincide. To date I have not seen their response. VI>Believe it can happen. Although usually lesbians tend to have cycles VI>that run together. It just seems to usually happen that when women live VI>together their cycles come in sync. But not always. Especially when VI>one of the two women has a cycle that is being disrupted by abnormal VI>hormone levels. So, in this case environment can affect biology. Date: Tuesday, February 17, 1998 6:58pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 744720 To: Steve Flur Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #744711, Reply to #744687, Reply to #744682, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>Believe it can happen. Although usually lesbians tend to have cycles SF>VI>that run together. It just seems to usually happen that when women live SF>VI>together their cycles come in sync. But not always. Especially when SF>VI>one of the two women has a cycle that is being disrupted by abnormal SF>VI>hormone levels. SF>So, in this case environment can affect biology. Absoutely. It is well known that when women live together for a period of time that their menstrual periods usually come in sync with each other. But it doesn't always happen. Date: Wednesday, February 18, 1998 8:59am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 744727 To: Vida Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #744720, Reply to #744711, Reply to #744687, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>Believe it can happen. Although usually lesbians tend to have cycles VI>SF>VI>that run together. It just seems to usually happen that when women li VI>SF>VI>together their cycles come in sync. But not always. Especially when VI>SF>VI>one of the two women has a cycle that is being disrupted by abnormal VI>SF>VI>hormone levels. VI>SF>So, in this case environment can affect biology. VI>Absoutely. It is well known that when women live together for a period VI>of time that their menstrual periods usually come in sync with each VI>other. But it doesn't always happen. When that does not happen, it must make for some "interesting" times in those households. Date: Thursday, February 19, 1998 5:09am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 744738 To: Steve Flur Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #744727, Reply to #744720, Reply to #744711, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>Believe it can happen. Although usually lesbians tend to have cycl SF>VI>SF>VI>that run together. It just seems to usually happen that when women SF>VI>SF>VI>together their cycles come in sync. But not always. Especially wh SF>VI>SF>VI>one of the two women has a cycle that is being disrupted by abnorma SF>VI>SF>VI>hormone levels. SF>VI>SF>So, in this case environment can affect biology. SF>VI>Absoutely. It is well known that when women live together for a period SF>VI>of time that their menstrual periods usually come in sync with each SF>VI>other. But it doesn't always happen. SF>When that does not happen, it must make for some "interesting" times in SF>those households. I suppose. Luckily for me, I don't really have too many menstrual associated problems. I have very minor cramps, which goes away when I pop some over the counter Advil or actually the generic stuff. I don't seem to get too many premenstrual symptoms. My flow just comes and then it goes. Date: Thursday, February 19, 1998 8:36am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 744740 To: Vida Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #744738, Reply to #744727, Reply to #744720, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Believe it can happen. Although usually lesbians tend to have c VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>that run together. It just seems to usually happen that when wo VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>together their cycles come in sync. But not always. Especially VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>one of the two women has a cycle that is being disrupted by abno VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>hormone levels. VI>SF>VI>SF>So, in this case environment can affect biology. VI>SF>VI>Absoutely. It is well known that when women live together for a perio VI>SF>VI>of time that their menstrual periods usually come in sync with each VI>SF>VI>other. But it doesn't always happen. VI>SF>When that does not happen, it must make for some "interesting" times in VI>SF>those households. VI>I suppose. Luckily for me, I don't really have too many menstrual VI>associated problems. I have very minor cramps, which goes away when I VI>pop some over the counter Advil or actually the generic stuff. I don't VI>seem to get too many premenstrual symptoms. My flow just comes and then VI>it goes. On the other hand there are some females I know that I would not want to be within a block of them during those times. Date: Sunday, February 15, 1998 9:43pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 744742 To: ** ALL ** Re: So what makes the shul orthodox? (Copy by Calvin, Reply to #744692, Reply to #743810, Rep*) -------------< COMMENTS BY Calvin >-------------- TO: Rand ----------< END OF COMMENTS BY Calvin >---------- RA>K> I don't doubt that you read that in a list, but let me assure you that RA>K> no such shul exists. NO orthodox shul would permit that. I certainly RA>K> agree with you that not every person who walks into an Orthodox shul has RA>K> to be orthodox. As a matter of fact, he or she does not even have to be RA>K> Jewish. In terms of non orthodox, quite often such an individual will RA>K> come into an orthodox shul for Yizkor services or to say Kaddush. RA>K> RA>Sorry. Such Orthodox shuls do exist. My shul in Great Neck (Great Neck RA>Synagogue) is Orthodox in every sense of the word, but members drive to shul RA>and park on the street. For a long time, some members were parking directly RA>across the street from the shul, but the shul now puts out traffic cones so RA>they can't. So what makes the shul orthodox? Why would these individuals pray in an Orthodox shul if according to the Orthodox shul these members are desecrating the Sabbath. Even more if this is an Orthodox shul then according to Orthodox law the individuals who drive to shul on the Sabbath can not be counted as part of the minyan, nor can they receive alliyas to the Torah so why would they attend this shul??????? Date: Friday, February 20, 1998 12:10am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 744749 To: Steve Flur Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #744740, Reply to #744738, Reply to #744727, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Believe it can happen. Although usually lesbians tend to hav SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>that run together. It just seems to usually happen that when SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>together their cycles come in sync. But not always. Especia SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>one of the two women has a cycle that is being disrupted by a SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>hormone levels. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>So, in this case environment can affect biology. SF>VI>SF>VI>Absoutely. It is well known that when women live together for a pe SF>VI>SF>VI>of time that their menstrual periods usually come in sync with each SF>VI>SF>VI>other. But it doesn't always happen. SF>VI>SF>When that does not happen, it must make for some "interesting" times i SF>VI>SF>those households. SF>VI>I suppose. Luckily for me, I don't really have too many menstrual SF>VI>associated problems. I have very minor cramps, which goes away when I SF>VI>pop some over the counter Advil or actually the generic stuff. I don't SF>VI>seem to get too many premenstrual symptoms. My flow just comes and then SF>VI>it goes. SF>On the other hand there are some females I know that I would not want to SF>be within a block of them during those times. Some females are like that. Some are not. Date: Friday, February 20, 1998 9:09am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 744753 To: Vida Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #744749, Reply to #744740, Reply to #744738, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Believe it can happen. Although usually lesbians tend to VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>that run together. It just seems to usually happen that w VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>together their cycles come in sync. But not always. Espe VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>one of the two women has a cycle that is being disrupted b VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>hormone levels. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>So, in this case environment can affect biology. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Absoutely. It is well known that when women live together for a VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>of time that their menstrual periods usually come in sync with e VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>other. But it doesn't always happen. VI>SF>VI>SF>When that does not happen, it must make for some "interesting" time VI>SF>VI>SF>those households. VI>SF>VI>I suppose. Luckily for me, I don't really have too many menstrual VI>SF>VI>associated problems. I have very minor cramps, which goes away when I VI>SF>VI>pop some over the counter Advil or actually the generic stuff. I don' VI>SF>VI>seem to get too many premenstrual symptoms. My flow just comes and th VI>SF>VI>it goes. VI>SF>On the other hand there are some females I know that I would not want to VI>SF>be within a block of them during those times. VI>Some females are like that. Some are not. As with most things, there are the extreme reactions as well as the more moderate reactions. Date: Saturday, February 21, 1998 9:01am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 744779 To: ** ALL ** Re: More on Niddah (Copy by Calvin) (1 reply) -------------< COMMENTS BY Calvin >-------------- TO: Kkid ----------< END OF COMMENTS BY Calvin >---------- I thought you might be interested in this. Someone was kind enough to forward to me an excerpt from the official FAQs posted by the Conservative movement on the internet. The person, unfortunately, did not tell me how to retrieve the rest of the faqs and I will write back to him and ask him. (I also want to dialogue with him on the topic since his post to me was very intelligent and coherent.) Just in case you were wondering Masorti is the name of the Isreali arm of the Conservative movement. I have ommitted the discussion in response to most of the faqs as being off topic. I did, however, include the one general faq about the Conservative movement's general approach to halacha so that you could read the book if you were interested. Actually, I will probably add the book eventually to my collection...along with some of the other books they recommend. You should also note that although I currently daven in a Conservative synagogue and I prefer the Conservative movement's prayer service over the Reform movement's prayer service I consider myself to be a "post denominatal" Jew, not a Conservative Jew. I take bits and pieces of the Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist and Renewal movements. :) > > >************************************ > > Frequently Asked Questions about Conservative/Masorti Judaism > > Part 3 (of a 4 part document) > > > This posting is an attempt to answer questions that are asked on >soc.culture.jewish. about Conservative/Masorti Judaism. It was edited by >Robert David Kaiser, largely based on various publications by The Jewish >Theological Seminary of America, The Rabbinical Assembly, and the United >Synagogue of Conservative Judaism. This FAQ is divided into four >sections, each of which are posted separately. Last updated 2/18/98 > >------------------------------------------------------------ >Subject: ORGANIZATION > > This FAQ contains answers to the following questions: > > > Is there a Conservative/Masorti guide to Jewish law? > > What is the Orthodox view of the role of women in Judaism? > > How has the traditional role of women changed? > > What is the position on Tohorot HaMishpachah (Family Purity) ? > > Can women receive aliyot? > > Can women count in a minyan? > > Can women serve as witnesses? > > How can women be ordained as rabbis within Jewish law? > > What is the status of women as Kohanim and Leviyim? > > What are the views that Conservative Judaism has regarding > various aspects of human sexuality? > > How is conversion to Judaism handled within the Conservative Movement? > > Who are the founders of the Conservative/Masorti movement? > > Where can I find books and materials ? >------------------------------------------------------------ >Subject: Is there a Conservative/Masorti guide to Jewish law? > > In the 1970s Rabbi Isaac Klein wrote a comprehensive guide to Jewish >law: "A Guide to Jewish Religious Practice". It is based firmly upon >the previous law codes, including the Mishneh Torah, the Tur, the >Shulkhan Arukh, and later responsa by authoritative Conservative and >Orthodox authorities. This code includes the decisions of the >Conservative movement's Rabbinical Assembly (RA) and Committee on Jewish >Law and Standards (CJLS) in the same way that rabbis of preceding >generations added their rulings to older works. > > This book is unlike other codes of law due to the fact that it was >sponsored by a large assembly of halakhic rabbis, the Rabbinical Assembly. >Thus " A Guide to Jewish Religious Practice" is not one man's opinion, as >other law codes frequently were, but in fact is the collective under- >standing of halakha by the Conservative movement. This approach is in >many ways more authentic and true to the traditional halakhic process >than the common Orthodox alternative, which leaves such decisions to >individual rabbis. > > >------------------------------------------------------------ >Subject: What is the Conservative/Maosrti position on the laws of > Tohorot HaMishpachah (Family Purity) ? > > Conservative Judaism teaches that Tohorot HaMishpacha is binding, just >as Kashrut and Shabbat observance is. Jewish law informs us that sex is >prohibited when a women is niddah (menstrual). After the cessation of >menstrual flow, the women counts seven days before immersing herself in >a mikva, a which time sexual relations between man and wife can then >continue. For more details, see "A Guide to Jewish Religious Practice". > It should be noted that the extra period of seven days is not a >Torah or Talmud requirement. It was intially discusses as a custom of >the pious, and it was only later that rabbis demanded this extra >stringency on all women. While the movement has not yet issued an >official ruling on this, Conservative poseks have been advising that >this chumra should no longer be seen as mandatory; The rule that is >developing is that the couple must abstain while a woman is niddah, but >then only one day of waiting, rather than an entire week, is necessary. > > Although observance of Jewish law has been on the upswing in the >Conservative community, the observance of the laws of family purity is >still deficient, and has not been increasing as much as the observance of >other mitzvot. There are many reasons for this problem: Parents are >loathe to discuss the subject with their children, and Hebrew Schools >usually deal with children between the ages of 8 and 13, and almost >always neglect this subject. Most importantly, Jewish children are >brought up in a secular country where free sex without commitment or >love is considered 'cool' and desirable. > > What is the traditional Jewish view towards sex? In "A Guide to >Jewish Religious Practice", Rabbi Issac Klein writes > > "Modern man is heir to two conflicting traditions neither of > which is Jewish: On the one hand, [we have] the rebirth of the old > paganism which found its extreme expression in the sacred > prostitutes of Canaan...and on the other hand, the Christian > reaction to the excesses of paganism...sex became identified with > original sin, and celibacy was regarded as the ideal form of life. > > Modern man, while opting for pagan libertinism, also suffers a > guilty conscience because of his Christian heritage....[However] > Judaism is free of both extremes. It rejects the espousal of > uncontrolled sexual expression that paganism preaches, and also > [rejects] Christianity's claim that all sexual activity is > inherently evil. > > Jewish marriage is based on a healthy sexual viewpoint that > rejects the two extremist principals, and so are the regulations > governing the conjugal relations between husband and wife, tohorot > hamishpacha, the purity of family life." > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > Date: Saturday, February 21, 1998 9:29am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 744782 To: Steve Flur Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #744753, Reply to #744749, Reply to #744740, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Believe it can happen. Although usually lesbians tend SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>that run together. It just seems to usually happen tha SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>together their cycles come in sync. But not always. E SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>one of the two women has a cycle that is being disrupte SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>hormone levels. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>So, in this case environment can affect biology. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Absoutely. It is well known that when women live together fo SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>of time that their menstrual periods usually come in sync wit SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>other. But it doesn't always happen. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>When that does not happen, it must make for some "interesting" t SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>those households. SF>VI>SF>VI>I suppose. Luckily for me, I don't really have too many menstrual SF>VI>SF>VI>associated problems. I have very minor cramps, which goes away whe SF>VI>SF>VI>pop some over the counter Advil or actually the generic stuff. I d SF>VI>SF>VI>seem to get too many premenstrual symptoms. My flow just comes and SF>VI>SF>VI>it goes. SF>VI>SF>On the other hand there are some females I know that I would not want SF>VI>SF>be within a block of them during those times. SF>VI>Some females are like that. Some are not. SF>As with most things, there are the extreme reactions as well as the more SF>moderate reactions. In this case, it's just a matter of biology. I am blessed in that I have a body that functions well. :) Date: Saturday, February 21, 1998 9:31am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 744783 To: Kkid Re: Ramblings (1 reply) I was just wondering why you seem so interested in my observing the laws of Niddah. You know I don't observe halacha at all. I am writing this on Shabbat. Shouldn't you be encouraging me to observe Shabbat and keep kosher first? Date: Monday, February 23, 1998 2:49pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 744816 To: Vida Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #744782, Reply to #744753, Reply to #744749, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Believe it can happen. Although usually lesbians te VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>that run together. It just seems to usually happen VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>together their cycles come in sync. But not always. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>one of the two women has a cycle that is being disru VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>hormone levels. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>So, in this case environment can affect biology. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Absoutely. It is well known that when women live together VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>of time that their menstrual periods usually come in sync VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>other. But it doesn't always happen. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>When that does not happen, it must make for some "interesting VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>those households. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I suppose. Luckily for me, I don't really have too many menstr VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>associated problems. I have very minor cramps, which goes away VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>pop some over the counter Advil or actually the generic stuff. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>seem to get too many premenstrual symptoms. My flow just comes VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>it goes. VI>SF>VI>SF>On the other hand there are some females I know that I would not wa VI>SF>VI>SF>be within a block of them during those times. VI>SF>VI>Some females are like that. Some are not. VI>SF>As with most things, there are the extreme reactions as well as the more VI>SF>moderate reactions. VI>In this case, it's just a matter of biology. I am blessed in that I VI>have a body that functions well. :) Just make sure you do what is necessary to keep it that way. Date: Monday, February 23, 1998 10:25pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 744823 To: Steve Flur Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #744816, Reply to #744782, Reply to #744753, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Believe it can happen. Although usually lesbians SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>that run together. It just seems to usually happ SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>together their cycles come in sync. But not alwa SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>one of the two women has a cycle that is being di SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>hormone levels. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>So, in this case environment can affect biology. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Absoutely. It is well known that when women live toget SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>of time that their menstrual periods usually come in sy SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>other. But it doesn't always happen. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>When that does not happen, it must make for some "interest SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>those households. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I suppose. Luckily for me, I don't really have too many men SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>associated problems. I have very minor cramps, which goes aw SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>pop some over the counter Advil or actually the generic stuff SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>seem to get too many premenstrual symptoms. My flow just com SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>it goes. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>On the other hand there are some females I know that I would not SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>be within a block of them during those times. SF>VI>SF>VI>Some females are like that. Some are not. SF>VI>SF>As with most things, there are the extreme reactions as well as the mo SF>VI>SF>moderate reactions. SF>VI>In this case, it's just a matter of biology. I am blessed in that I SF>VI>have a body that functions well. :) SF>Just make sure you do what is necessary to keep it that way. I try. :) Date: Saturday, February 21, 1998 9:01am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 744833 To: ** ALL ** Re: More on Niddah (Fw by Sysop) -------------< COMMENTS BY Sysop >-------------- To: Kkid ----------< END OF COMMENTS BY Sysop >---------- I thought you might be interested in this. Someone was kind enough to forward to me an excerpt from the official FAQs posted by the Conservative movement on the internet. The person, unfortunately, did not tell me how to retrieve the rest of the faqs and I will write back to him and ask him. (I also want to dialogue with him on the topic since his post to me was very intelligent and coherent.) Just in case you were wondering Masorti is the name of the Isreali arm of the Conservative movement. I have ommitted the discussion in response to most of the faqs as being off topic. I did, however, include the one general faq about the Conservative movement's general approach to halacha so that you could read the book if you were interested. Actually, I will probably add the book eventually to my collection...along with some of the other books they recommend. You should also note that although I currently daven in a Conservative synagogue and I prefer the Conservative movement's prayer service over the Reform movement's prayer service I consider myself to be a "post denominatal" Jew, not a Conservative Jew. I take bits and pieces of the Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist and Renewal movements. :) > > >************************************ > > Frequently Asked Questions about Conservative/Masorti Judaism > > Part 3 (of a 4 part document) > > > This posting is an attempt to answer questions that are asked on >soc.culture.jewish. about Conservative/Masorti Judaism. It was edited by >Robert David Kaiser, largely based on various publications by The Jewish >Theological Seminary of America, The Rabbinical Assembly, and the United >Synagogue of Conservative Judaism. This FAQ is divided into four >sections, each of which are posted separately. Last updated 2/18/98 > >------------------------------------------------------------ >Subject: ORGANIZATION > > This FAQ contains answers to the following questions: > > > Is there a Conservative/Masorti guide to Jewish law? > > What is the Orthodox view of the role of women in Judaism? > > How has the traditional role of women changed? > > What is the position on Tohorot HaMishpachah (Family Purity) ? > > Can women receive aliyot? > > Can women count in a minyan? > > Can women serve as witnesses? > > How can women be ordained as rabbis within Jewish law? > > What is the status of women as Kohanim and Leviyim? > > What are the views that Conservative Judaism has regarding > various aspects of human sexuality? > > How is conversion to Judaism handled within the Conservative Movement? > > Who are the founders of the Conservative/Masorti movement? > > Where can I find books and materials ? >------------------------------------------------------------ >Subject: Is there a Conservative/Masorti guide to Jewish law? > > In the 1970s Rabbi Isaac Klein wrote a comprehensive guide to Jewish >law: "A Guide to Jewish Religious Practice". It is based firmly upon >the previous law codes, including the Mishneh Torah, the Tur, the >Shulkhan Arukh, and later responsa by authoritative Conservative and >Orthodox authorities. This code includes the decisions of the >Conservative movement's Rabbinical Assembly (RA) and Committee on Jewish >Law and Standards (CJLS) in the same way that rabbis of preceding >generations added their rulings to older works. > > This book is unlike other codes of law due to the fact that it was >sponsored by a large assembly of halakhic rabbis, the Rabbinical Assembly. >Thus " A Guide to Jewish Religious Practice" is not one man's opinion, as >other law codes frequently were, but in fact is the collective under- >standing of halakha by the Conservative movement. This approach is in >many ways more authentic and true to the traditional halakhic process >than the common Orthodox alternative, which leaves such decisions to >individual rabbis. > > >------------------------------------------------------------ >Subject: What is the Conservative/Maosrti position on the laws of > Tohorot HaMishpachah (Family Purity) ? > > Conservative Judaism teaches that Tohorot HaMishpacha is binding, just >as Kashrut and Shabbat observance is. Jewish law informs us that sex is >prohibited when a women is niddah (menstrual). After the cessation of >menstrual flow, the women counts seven days before immersing herself in >a mikva, a which time sexual relations between man and wife can then >continue. For more details, see "A Guide to Jewish Religious Practice". > It should be noted that the extra period of seven days is not a >Torah or Talmud requirement. It was intially discusses as a custom of >the pious, and it was only later that rabbis demanded this extra >stringency on all women. While the movement has not yet issued an >official ruling on this, Conservative poseks have been advising that >this chumra should no longer be seen as mandatory; The rule that is >developing is that the couple must abstain while a woman is niddah, but >then only one day of waiting, rather than an entire week, is necessary. > > Although observance of Jewish law has been on the upswing in the >Conservative community, the observance of the laws of family purity is >still deficient, and has not been increasing as much as the observance of >other mitzvot. There are many reasons for this problem: Parents are >loathe to discuss the subject with their children, and Hebrew Schools >usually deal with children between the ages of 8 and 13, and almost >always neglect this subject. Most importantly, Jewish children are >brought up in a secular country where free sex without commitment or >love is considered 'cool' and desirable. > > What is the traditional Jewish view towards sex? In "A Guide to >Jewish Religious Practice", Rabbi Issac Klein writes > > "Modern man is heir to two conflicting traditions neither of > which is Jewish: On the one hand, [we have] the rebirth of the old > paganism which found its extreme expression in the sacred > prostitutes of Canaan...and on the other hand, the Christian > reaction to the excesses of paganism...sex became identified with > original sin, and celibacy was regarded as the ideal form of life. > > Modern man, while opting for pagan libertinism, also suffers a > guilty conscience because of his Christian heritage....[However] > Judaism is free of both extremes. It rejects the espousal of > uncontrolled sexual expression that paganism preaches, and also > [rejects] Christianity's claim that all sexual activity is > inherently evil. > > Jewish marriage is based on a healthy sexual viewpoint that > rejects the two extremist principals, and so are the regulations > governing the conjugal relations between husband and wife, tohorot > hamishpacha, the purity of family life." > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > Date: Tuesday, February 24, 1998 9:01am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 744834 To: Vida Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #744823, Reply to #744816, Reply to #744782, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Believe it can happen. Although usually lesbi VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>that run together. It just seems to usually h VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>together their cycles come in sync. But not a VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>one of the two women has a cycle that is being VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>hormone levels. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>So, in this case environment can affect biology. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Absoutely. It is well known that when women live to VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>of time that their menstrual periods usually come in VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>other. But it doesn't always happen. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>When that does not happen, it must make for some "inter VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>those households. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I suppose. Luckily for me, I don't really have too many VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>associated problems. I have very minor cramps, which goes VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>pop some over the counter Advil or actually the generic st VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>seem to get too many premenstrual symptoms. My flow just VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>it goes. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>On the other hand there are some females I know that I would VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>be within a block of them during those times. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Some females are like that. Some are not. VI>SF>VI>SF>As with most things, there are the extreme reactions as well as the VI>SF>VI>SF>moderate reactions. VI>SF>VI>In this case, it's just a matter of biology. I am blessed in that I VI>SF>VI>have a body that functions well. :) VI>SF>Just make sure you do what is necessary to keep it that way. VI>I try. :) Including FULL annual check-ups? Date: Tuesday, February 24, 1998 7:56pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 744863 To: Steve Flur Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #744834, Reply to #744823, Reply to #744816, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Believe it can happen. Although usually le SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>that run together. It just seems to usuall SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>together their cycles come in sync. But no SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>one of the two women has a cycle that is be SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>hormone levels. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>So, in this case environment can affect biolog SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Absoutely. It is well known that when women live SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>of time that their menstrual periods usually come SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>other. But it doesn't always happen. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>When that does not happen, it must make for some "in SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>those households. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I suppose. Luckily for me, I don't really have too man SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>associated problems. I have very minor cramps, which g SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>pop some over the counter Advil or actually the generic SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>seem to get too many premenstrual symptoms. My flow ju SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>it goes. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>On the other hand there are some females I know that I wou SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>be within a block of them during those times. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Some females are like that. Some are not. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>As with most things, there are the extreme reactions as well as SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>moderate reactions. SF>VI>SF>VI>In this case, it's just a matter of biology. I am blessed in that SF>VI>SF>VI>have a body that functions well. :) SF>VI>SF>Just make sure you do what is necessary to keep it that way. SF>VI>I try. :) SF>Including FULL annual check-ups? I go for annual gyn exams. But I haven't had a full check up in a long, long time. However, at my gyn exam last week my gynocologist referred me to an internist for a FULL check up. And I have one scheduled for next month. Date: Wednesday, February 25, 1998 8:59am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 744874 To: Vida Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #744863, Reply to #744834, Reply to #744823, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Believe it can happen. Although usually VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>that run together. It just seems to usu VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>together their cycles come in sync. But VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>one of the two women has a cycle that is VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>hormone levels. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>So, in this case environment can affect bio VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Absoutely. It is well known that when women l VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>of time that their menstrual periods usually c VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>other. But it doesn't always happen. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>When that does not happen, it must make for some VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>those households. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I suppose. Luckily for me, I don't really have too VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>associated problems. I have very minor cramps, whic VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>pop some over the counter Advil or actually the gene VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>seem to get too many premenstrual symptoms. My flow VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>it goes. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>On the other hand there are some females I know that I VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>be within a block of them during those times. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Some females are like that. Some are not. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>As with most things, there are the extreme reactions as well VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>moderate reactions. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>In this case, it's just a matter of biology. I am blessed in th VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>have a body that functions well. :) VI>SF>VI>SF>Just make sure you do what is necessary to keep it that way. VI>SF>VI>I try. :) VI>SF>Including FULL annual check-ups? VI>I go for annual gyn exams. But I haven't had a full check up in a VI>long, long time. However, at my gyn exam last week my gynocologist VI>referred me to an internist for a FULL check up. And I have one VI>scheduled for next month. I never thought annual exams were worth the effort until my last year's exam found unsuspected diabetes, hypertension, high cholesteral, and a malignant tumor. Date: Wednesday, February 25, 1998 5:52pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 744889 To: Vida Re: More on Niddah (Reply to #744779, Copy by Calvin) (1 reply) Thanks for that post. I did find it informative. BTW the part about waiting 7 days as being a "chumra" (a stringency) may be incorrect. Orthodox women wait 5 days before starting their count of 7 (clean) days. It is these 5 days that were set up by the rabbis. I think the 7 days are from the Torah. Date: Wednesday, February 25, 1998 5:57pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 744890 To: Vida Re: Ramblings (Reply to #744783) (1 reply) VI>I was just wondering why you seem so interested in my observing the VI>laws of Niddah. You know I don't observe halacha at all. I am writing VI>this on Shabbat. Shouldn't you be encouraging me to observe Shabbat and VI>keep kosher first? I am sorry to have given you that impression. I make it a point of never trying to change an individual's behavior in terms of religion unless I am their religious teacher. I had no intention of giving you that impression. I was trying to point out somewhere that the laws dealing with Nidah are the foundation of Judaism. That is why I was curious as to the Conservative view on these laws. Date: Wednesday, February 25, 1998 6:46pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 744898 To: Steve Flur Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #744874, Reply to #744863, Reply to #744834, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Believe it can happen. Although usua SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>that run together. It just seems to SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>together their cycles come in sync. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>one of the two women has a cycle that SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>hormone levels. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>So, in this case environment can affect SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Absoutely. It is well known that when wome SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>of time that their menstrual periods usuall SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>other. But it doesn't always happen. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>When that does not happen, it must make for so SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>those households. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I suppose. Luckily for me, I don't really have t SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>associated problems. I have very minor cramps, w SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>pop some over the counter Advil or actually the g SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>seem to get too many premenstrual symptoms. My f SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>it goes. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>On the other hand there are some females I know that SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>be within a block of them during those times. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Some females are like that. Some are not. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>As with most things, there are the extreme reactions as we SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>moderate reactions. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>In this case, it's just a matter of biology. I am blessed in SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>have a body that functions well. :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Just make sure you do what is necessary to keep it that way. SF>VI>SF>VI>I try. :) SF>VI>SF>Including FULL annual check-ups? SF>VI>I go for annual gyn exams. But I haven't had a full check up in a SF>VI>long, long time. However, at my gyn exam last week my gynocologist SF>VI>referred me to an internist for a FULL check up. And I have one SF>VI>scheduled for next month. SF>I never thought annual exams were worth the effort until my last year's SF>exam found unsuspected diabetes, hypertension, high cholesteral, and a SF>malignant tumor. OY! Date: Wednesday, February 25, 1998 6:54pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 744899 To: Kkid Re: More on Niddah (Reply to #744889, Reply to #744779, Copy by Calvin) KK>Thanks for that post. I did find it informative. BTW the part about KK>waiting 7 days as being a "chumra" (a stringency) may be incorrect. KK>Orthodox women wait 5 days before starting their count of 7 (clean) KK>days. KK> It is these 5 days that were set up by the rabbis. I think the 7 KK>days are from the Torah. Well the post represents how Conservative rabbis interpret the halachah concerning the laws of niddah. I am in the midst of reading "Women and Jewish Law: The Essentials Texts, Their History & Their Relevance for Today" by Rachel Biale. I haven't reached the chapter on the laws of Niddah yet, but if you talked to me later in the week I can comment on the book. You will also be interested to know that in order to reduce the turmoil I experienced last year when reading the parshat in the Book of Levictus I bought myself a copy of "The Torah: A Modern Commentary" by W.G. Plaut. It's the Reform Movement's equivalent to the Hertz Torah, in other words it has the original Torah in full, in the original Hebrew plus commentaries. Plaut is pretty well respected among left leaning/progressive Conservative congregrations. For example, it's the volume they use to read the parsha and haftarah portions at BJ. Date: Wednesday, February 25, 1998 6:57pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 744900 To: Kkid Re: Ramblings (Reply to #744890, Reply to #744783) (1 reply) KK>VI>I was just wondering why you seem so interested in my observing the KK>VI>laws of Niddah. You know I don't observe halacha at all. I am writing KK>VI>this on Shabbat. Shouldn't you be encouraging me to observe Shabbat and KK>VI>keep kosher first? KK>I am sorry to have given you that impression. I make it a point of never KK>trying to change an individual's behavior in terms of religion unless KK>I am their religious teacher. I had no intention of giving you KK>that impression. KK>I was trying to point out somewhere that the laws dealing with Nidah are KK>the foundation of Judaism. That is why I was curious as to the KK>Conservative view on these laws. I am interested in hearing why you believe this is so. More than Sabbath? From everything I have been taught is Sabbatis the most important mitzvot. Date: Thursday, February 26, 1998 8:25am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 744908 To: Vida Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #744898, Reply to #744874, Reply to #744863, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Believe it can happen. Although u VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>that run together. It just seems VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>together their cycles come in sync VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>one of the two women has a cycle t VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>hormone levels. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>So, in this case environment can affe VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Absoutely. It is well known that when w VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>of time that their menstrual periods usu VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>other. But it doesn't always happen. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>When that does not happen, it must make for VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>those households. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I suppose. Luckily for me, I don't really hav VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>associated problems. I have very minor cramps VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>pop some over the counter Advil or actually th VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>seem to get too many premenstrual symptoms. M VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>it goes. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>On the other hand there are some females I know t VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>be within a block of them during those times. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Some females are like that. Some are not. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>As with most things, there are the extreme reactions as VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>moderate reactions. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>In this case, it's just a matter of biology. I am blessed VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>have a body that functions well. :) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Just make sure you do what is necessary to keep it that way. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I try. :) VI>SF>VI>SF>Including FULL annual check-ups? VI>SF>VI>I go for annual gyn exams. But I haven't had a full check up in a VI>SF>VI>long, long time. However, at my gyn exam last week my gynocologist VI>SF>VI>referred me to an internist for a FULL check up. And I have one VI>SF>VI>scheduled for next month. VI>SF>I never thought annual exams were worth the effort until my last year's VI>SF>exam found unsuspected diabetes, hypertension, high cholesteral, and a VI>SF>malignant tumor. VI>OY! So, do definitely keep your scheduled appointment! Date: Thursday, February 26, 1998 9:43pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 744914 To: Vida Re: Ramblings (Reply to #744900, Reply to #744890, Reply to #744783) (1 reply) VI>KK>I was trying to point out somewhere that the laws dealing with Nidah are VI>KK>the foundation of Judaism. That is why I was curious as to the VI>KK>Conservative view on these laws. VI>I am interested in hearing why you believe this is so. More than VI>Sabbath? From everything I have been taught is Sabbatis the most VI>important mitzvot. The punishment for ignoring the laws of nidah is harsher than the Sabbath as far as I know. That is one way of judging the importance of a law. There is much written regarding children born from such a union. There is no repentance for the sin once the children are born. There is always repentence for the desecration of the Sabbath if one wishes to repent. (The individuals can repent but the children remain tainted.) Date: Friday, February 27, 1998 5:04am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 744919 To: Steve Flur Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #744908, Reply to #744898, Reply to #744874, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Just make sure you do what is necessary to keep it that wa SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I try. :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Including FULL annual check-ups? SF>VI>SF>VI>I go for annual gyn exams. But I haven't had a full check up in a SF>VI>SF>VI>long, long time. However, at my gyn exam last week my gynocologist SF>VI>SF>VI>referred me to an internist for a FULL check up. And I have one SF>VI>SF>VI>scheduled for next month. SF>VI>SF>I never thought annual exams were worth the effort until my last year' SF>VI>SF>exam found unsuspected diabetes, hypertension, high cholesteral, and a SF>VI>SF>malignant tumor. SF>VI>OY! SF>So, do definitely keep your scheduled appointment! I intend to! For one thing, both of my parents were diabetics. What prompted me to listen to my gyn and make the appointment is that I had a really bad "sugar high" the other day. What I mean by that is that I had eaten a lot of sugary snacks and then felt kind of wierd. So I definitely want to be screened for diabetes. Date: Friday, February 27, 1998 5:12am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 744920 To: Kkid Re: Ramblings (Reply to #744914, Reply to #744900, Reply to #744890, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>KK>I was trying to point out somewhere that the laws dealing with Nidah a KK>VI>KK>the foundation of Judaism. That is why I was curious as to the KK>VI>KK>Conservative view on these laws. KK>VI>I am interested in hearing why you believe this is so. More than KK>VI>Sabbath? From everything I have been taught is Sabbatis the most KK>VI>important mitzvot. KK>The punishment for ignoring the laws of nidah is harsher than the KK>Sabbath as far as I know. That is one way of judging the importance of a KK>law. There is much written regarding children born from such a union. KK>There is no repentance for the sin once the children are born. There is KK>always repentence for the desecration of the Sabbath if one wishes to KK>repent. (The individuals can repent but the children remain tainted.) Are you saying that the child itself is tainted from the sin of its parents? I can understand and accept that the parents might be tainted from the sin of having sex during a "forbidden time". But I can't believe or accept that G*d would punish an innocent child for the sins of his/her parents. But for the parents themselves is the punishment for violating the laws of Niddah greater than the punishment for violating Sabbath? Can you try to be specific with reference to the punishment for violating Sabbath vs. the punishment for violating the laws of Niddah? I am really trying to sort this out. I feel like I can honestly say that I don't observe the laws of Sabbath YET and I would like to honestly find a way to start incorporating Sabbat into my life. But I can't honestly say the same about the laws of Niddah. Date: Friday, February 27, 1998 7:40am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 744922 To: ** ALL ** Re: This is outrageous! This appeared on the Bridges, Jewish feminist e mail list. I agree with the poster that this story is an outrage! This appeared in the Jerusalem Post: Group Angered by Forced Divorce By GWEN ACKERMAN .c The Associated Press JERUSALEM (AP) - A rabbinical court has ruled an ultra-Orthodox man must divorce his wife, a rape victim, even though the couple wants to stay together - prompting condemnation Wednesday from Israel's largest women's group. ``Instead of supporting the rape victim who underwent deep trauma, the rabbis are adding insult to injury,'' the Naamat women's group head, Ofra Friedman, said of the rabbis' decision. The Yediot Ahronot newspaper said Wednesday that the woman, a mother of nine who lives in the religious Tel Aviv suburb of Bnei Brak, was raped three weeks ago by three men as she left a Jewish ritual bath. The woman did not report the attack to police. However, she did tell her husband, whose last name is Cohen, meaning he is a descendant of the Jewish Temple priests. Under Jewish law, a Cohen - unlike other Jews - must divorce his wife if she has been raped. The only way to get around the rule is for the husband to tell his wife he doesn't believe her. However, in the Bnei Brak case, the husband failed to intone the necessary words: ``I don't believe you.'' Instead, he asked several well-known rabbis for advice, Yediot said. After several days, the rabbis returned with the answer: The couple must divorce despite their desire to stay together. The couple is still looking for a rabbi who will find a loophole and allow them to stay married, the newspaper said. Their names have not been released. ``Naamat finds it hard to believe that in this day and age the question of whether or not it was rape depends on what the husband says,'' Friedman said in her statement. AP-NY-02-25-98 1517EST Date: Friday, February 27, 1998 7:49am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 744923 To: ** ALL ** Re: Quilt Text (1 reply) I want to share this Dvar Torah with all here. It is by Arthur Waskow, who I consider to be one of my main teachers of Torah, although I have not had the chance to take a class with him in person yet. I may, however, take a class with him with Elat Chayyim this summer. I won't make up my mind as to which class I will take at Elat Chayyim until mid March when I receive the full catalog. And as usual the problem for me will be to decide which week to go and which class to take--there are so many classes and good teachers to choose from! The following D'var Torah for Parashat Terumah appeared in the Jerusalem Report, this week. Enjoy! Good Shabbos, -- Arthur Carrying the Sacred Space By Rabbi Arthur Waskow* Almost fifteen years ago, the gay community in America began to make a Quilt. Each square was made by the friends and family of one person who had suffered and died of AIDS -- most of them young, full of excitement and energy and hope until the disease laid hold of them. Thousands upon thousands of squares, enough to cover huge areas of the Mall in Washington, D.C., where all the squares were brought and tied together. A few of the squares were in dark and mournful colors. Many more were bright, crimson and purple and indigo, crocheted and knitted and embroidered with flowers and symbols and words and names. Each one a tombstone in cloth. There on the grass of the Mall in Washington, a whole graveyard in cloth. Each square had been made with grommets so that it could be connected to the ones around it. Those who remembered each person who had died, those who had celebrated and remembered and memorialized each life, began to tie one grommet to another. When the quilt was completed, it was ready to be carried from city to city, from country to country. A holy memorial to life much more than death, to hope much more than fear, to courage much more than pain. A sacred work of art, the first public art made by a community that had been hidden in the narrow place of secrecy. We meet this Quilt in words of Torah that are almost three thousand years old. The passages of Torah that describe the Mishkan -- that portable place in which God's very Presence loved to hover. The children of Israel had been locked tight in a Narrow Place, Constricted Space, Mitzraiim. In Egypt, the country that was long and narrow, the empire that was narrow-minded. Its prisoners had broken free, had turned the Narrow Space into a narrow birth canal. They had broken the birthing-waters of Mother Egypt when the waters of the Red Sea split. They were new-born. And from the Voice that had beckoned them to birth and freedom, they heard the Vision of a sacred space. Full of scarlet and purple and deep blue. Woven of cloth, fashioned of fur. Shaped in sections that could be grommeted together. Light enough to carry on their journey, place to place. A Quilt. The Mishkan. The Ivrim or "cross-over" folks, "trans-gressors," the Hebrews, the free-ranging people who like wetbacks swam every sea and river, danced across each boundary -- were just newly free when they started gathering colors and textures and shapes for their Mishkan. Newly ready to create their own culture, their own sense of holiness, their own art, their own music, their own stories. Their own physical space. Each earring tossed into the simmering pot of molten gold was a gift in memory of some slave who had died sick, starving. Each curving wooden pole and pulley was carved in memory of some boy-child bashed and beaten by the Pharaoh's bullies. Like those just freed from Egypt, the newly free community of gay men and lesbians celebrated their first taste of freedom with a first act of communal responsibility -- making sure that their dead were not forgotten. Making sure that the world turned its attention to ending this plague and curing its victims. Turning what the world called their "transgressions" into freedom and community. Building. Creating. Sewing. Weaving. Carrying. Connecting. The Quilt. The Mishkan. A Mishkan not only in the sense of a portable shrine. A Mishkan in the sense of a Place where the Shekhinah dwells, a Place where God's presence can be felt in our very midst. For God dwells most deeply where the newly free remember their pain with tears, create their future in joy, and carry their vision into every journey of their lives. ______________________________________ * Rabbi Waskow is director of the Shalom Center, a network of Jews committed to healing the world in the spiritual tradition of Abraham Joshua Heschel. He is a Pathfinder of ALEPH: Alliance for Jewish Renewal, and author of Godwrestling - Round 2, Seasons of Our Joy, and Down-to-Earth Judaism: Food, Money, Sex, and the Rest of Life, and co-author of Tales of Tikkun. In 1996 the United Nations named him one of forty Wisdom-Keepers from around the world to advise the Habitat II conference in Istanbul. Date: Friday, February 27, 1998 9:52am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 744928 To: Vida Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #744919, Reply to #744908, Reply to #744898, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Just make sure you do what is necessary to keep it that VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I try. :) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Including FULL annual check-ups? VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I go for annual gyn exams. But I haven't had a full check up in VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>long, long time. However, at my gyn exam last week my gynocolog VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>referred me to an internist for a FULL check up. And I have one VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>scheduled for next month. VI>SF>VI>SF>I never thought annual exams were worth the effort until my last ye VI>SF>VI>SF>exam found unsuspected diabetes, hypertension, high cholesteral, an VI>SF>VI>SF>malignant tumor. VI>SF>VI>OY! VI>SF>So, do definitely keep your scheduled appointment! VI>I intend to! For one thing, both of my parents were diabetics. What VI>prompted me to listen to my gyn and make the appointment is that I had a VI>really bad "sugar high" the other day. What I mean by that is that I VI>had eaten a lot of sugary snacks and then felt kind of wierd. So I VI>definitely want to be screened for diabetes. If you check out fine, ask about diabetes prevention programs that exist for people at risk due to family history. Date: Friday, February 27, 1998 9:55am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 744929 To: Vida Re: Quilt Text (Reply to #744923) (1 reply) I am glad you uploaded this. I read it also on gayjews. Date: Saturday, February 28, 1998 3:37am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 744951 To: Steve Flur Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #744928, Reply to #744919, Reply to #744908, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Just make sure you do what is necessary to keep it t SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I try. :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Including FULL annual check-ups? SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I go for annual gyn exams. But I haven't had a full check up SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>long, long time. However, at my gyn exam last week my gynoco SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>referred me to an internist for a FULL check up. And I have SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>scheduled for next month. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I never thought annual exams were worth the effort until my last SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>exam found unsuspected diabetes, hypertension, high cholesteral, SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>malignant tumor. SF>VI>SF>VI>OY! SF>VI>SF>So, do definitely keep your scheduled appointment! SF>VI>I intend to! For one thing, both of my parents were diabetics. What SF>VI>prompted me to listen to my gyn and make the appointment is that I had a SF>VI>really bad "sugar high" the other day. What I mean by that is that I SF>VI>had eaten a lot of sugary snacks and then felt kind of wierd. So I SF>VI>definitely want to be screened for diabetes. SF>If you check out fine, ask about diabetes prevention programs that exist SF>for people at risk due to family history. I definitely will! But I bet I can tell you what the advice basically is--eat a sensible diet which is low in fat, with lots of veggies and fiber; exercise regualarly and avoid sugary sweets. I TRY to do all these things now since they are critical to my weight maintaince. But it is hard for me to keep my craving for sweets and junk food under control. It is something I continually struggle with. At one time I weighed over 200 pounds so you know (a) that I used to have a big problem with my weight and (b) that I work hard to keep my weight at a reasonable level. Date: Saturday, February 28, 1998 3:37am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 744952 To: Steve Flur Re: Quilt Text (Reply to #744929, Reply to #744923) (1 reply) SF>I am glad you uploaded this. I read it also on gayjews. Yeah, I uploaded it to gayjews! :) Date: Saturday, February 28, 1998 6:01pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 744956 To: ** ALL ** *EXEMPT* Re: Joke time (2 replies) I hope none of my Christian friends find this offensive. This appeared on the Jewish humor e mail list. I thought it was really funny and really cute. ================================================================ T H E J E W I S H H U M O R L I S T ================================================================ Thanks to Dave Kaplan ************************************************************** > >Turmoil rocked Heaven this morning as allegations arose that >God had had an affair with a former worshipper. The scandal >was begun when a 21 year old woman, known only as Mary, >claimed that she had given birth to God's "only son" last week >in a barn in the hamlet of Bethlehem. Sources close to Mary >claim that she "had loved God for a long time", that she was >constantly talking about her relationship with God, and that she >was "thrilled to have had his child." > >In a press conference this morning, God issued a vehement >denial, saying that "No improper sexual relationship existed." > >Independent counsel Kenneth Beelzebub immediately filed a >brief with the Justice department to expand his investigation to >cover questions of whether any commandments may have >been broken, and whether God had illegally funneled laundered >money to his illegitimate child through three foreign operatives >know only as the "Wise Men". > >Beelzebub was originally appointed to investigate charges >that God had created large-scale flooding in order to cover-up >evidence of a failed land deal, and questions surrounding >the large number of locusts that plagued God's political >opponents in the last election. > >Opponents further claim that the destruction of the cities of Sodom >and Gommorah was to divert attention away from a scandal >involving the giveaway of a parcel of public land in Promised >County to a Jewish special interest group that was quid pro quo >for political contributions. > >If these allegations prove to be true, then this could be a huge >blow to God's career, much of which has been spent crusading >for stricter moral standards and harsher punishments for >wrongdoers. Indeed, God recently outlined a "tough-on-crime" >plan consisting of a series of 10 "Commandments", which has >been introduced in Congress in a bill by Rep. Moses. > >Critics of the bill have pointed out that it lacks any provisions for >the rehabilitation of criminals, and lawyers for the ACLU are >planning to fight the "Name in Vain" commandment as being >an unconstitutional restriction on free speech. ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Date: Monday, March 2, 1998 2:00pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 744983 To: Vida Re: Ramblings (Reply to #744920, Reply to #744914, Reply to #744900, R*) (2 replies) VI>KK>The punishment for ignoring the laws of nidah is harsher than the VI>KK>Sabbath as far as I know. That is one way of judging the importance of a VI>KK>law. There is much written regarding children born from such a union. VI>KK>There is no repentance for the sin once the children are born. There is VI>KK>always repentence for the desecration of the Sabbath if one wishes to VI>KK>repent. (The individuals can repent but the children remain tainted.) VI>Are you saying that the child itself is tainted from the sin of its VI>parents? I can understand and accept that the parents might be tainted VI>from the sin of having sex during a "forbidden time". But I can't VI>believe or accept that G*d would punish an innocent child for the sins VI>of his/her parents. Unfortunately that is how things work in the Jewish relgigion. For example a child born out of wedlock is "tainted." A child born out of a sinful marriage is also "tainted." VI>But for the parents themselves is the punishment for violating the laws VI>of Niddah greater than the punishment for violating Sabbath? Can you VI>try to be specific with reference to the punishment for violating VI>Sabbath vs. the punishment for violating the laws of Niddah? I am VI>really trying to sort this out. I feel like I can honestly say that I VI>don't observe the laws of Sabbath YET and I would like to honestly find [B>a way to start incorporating Sabbat into my life. But I can't honestly VI>say the same about the laws of Niddah. I would have to do some research, but off the top of my head, the punishment for having intercourse with a Niddah is Karrus (no idea how to spell this or transliterate it.). It is the same punishment as eating Chametz on Passover. There are Midrashim on exactly what that punishment is. The literal translation is "cutting." It can mean that the individual will live a shortened life. It may mean that the individual will have no children to carry on the family name. It may mean that the individual's children will die at a young age. And it may mean something in cutting off the individual in the "world to come." Regarding the Sabbath, I think the general punishment was stoning if the transgression was done on purpose with warning. Date: Monday, March 2, 1998 2:08pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 744984 To: Vida Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #744951, Reply to #744928, Reply to #744919, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Just make sure you do what is necessary to keep i VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I try. :) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Including FULL annual check-ups? VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I go for annual gyn exams. But I haven't had a full check VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>long, long time. However, at my gyn exam last week my gyn VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>referred me to an internist for a FULL check up. And I ha VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>scheduled for next month. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I never thought annual exams were worth the effort until my l VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>exam found unsuspected diabetes, hypertension, high cholester VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>malignant tumor. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>OY! VI>SF>VI>SF>So, do definitely keep your scheduled appointment! VI>SF>VI>I intend to! For one thing, both of my parents were diabetics. What VI>SF>VI>prompted me to listen to my gyn and make the appointment is that I had VI>SF>VI>really bad "sugar high" the other day. What I mean by that is that I VI>SF>VI>had eaten a lot of sugary snacks and then felt kind of wierd. So I VI>SF>VI>definitely want to be screened for diabetes. VI>SF>If you check out fine, ask about diabetes prevention programs that exist VI>SF>for people at risk due to family history. VI>I definitely will! But I bet I can tell you what the advice basically VI>is--eat a sensible diet which is low in fat, with lots of veggies and VI>fiber; exercise regualarly and avoid sugary sweets. I TRY to do all VI>these things now since they are critical to my weight maintaince. But VI>it is hard for me to keep my craving for sweets and junk food under VI>control. It is something I continually struggle with. At one time I VI>weighed over 200 pounds so you know (a) that I used to have a big VI>problem with my weight and (b) that I work hard to keep my weight at a VI>reasonable level. Ask about the programs, since they follow you much more closely than just weight measurements to prevent the onset of diabetes. Date: Monday, March 2, 1998 2:09pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 744985 To: Vida Re: Quilt Text (Reply to #744952, Reply to #744929, Reply to #744923) (1 reply) VI>SF>I am glad you uploaded this. I read it also on gayjews. VI>Yeah, I uploaded it to gayjews! :) Your efforts are appreciated both here and on gayjews! Date: Monday, March 2, 1998 2:10pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 744986 To: Vida Re: Joke time (Reply to #744956) I liked it! Date: Monday, March 2, 1998 2:13pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 744987 To: Kkid Re: Ramblings (Reply to #744983, Reply to #744920, Reply to #744914, R*) I thought only children born of a relationship punishible by death are "tainted" with being mamzarim? Date: Monday, March 2, 1998 6:15pm Forum: Theology From: Steve C Msg#: 744994 To: Vida Re: Joke time (Reply to #744956) (1 reply) VI>I hope none of my Christian friends find this offensive. This appeared VI>on the Jewish humor e mail list. I thought it was really funny and VI>really cute. VI>================================================================ VI> T H E J E W I S H H U M O R L I S T VI>================================================================ VI>Thanks to Dave Kaplan VI>************************************************************** Thank for posting this. I found it very entertaining, but after reading how something that we Christians have thought of as a great occurance is made to look so slimy using Starr's tactics, one wonders if Bill is perhaps not as guilty as we think he is :) * OLX 2.1 TD * Everyone has a photographic memory; some just lack film! Date: Monday, March 2, 1998 9:04pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 745002 To: Kkid Re: Ramblings (Reply to #744983, Reply to #744920, Reply to #744914, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>KK>The punishment for ignoring the laws of nidah is harsher than the KK>VI>KK>Sabbath as far as I know. That is one way of judging the importance of KK>VI>KK>law. There is much written regarding children born from such a union. KK>VI>KK>There is no repentance for the sin once the children are born. There i KK>VI>KK>always repentence for the desecration of the Sabbath if one wishes to KK>VI>KK>repent. (The individuals can repent but the children remain tainted.) KK>VI>Are you saying that the child itself is tainted from the sin of its KK>VI>parents? I can understand and accept that the parents might be tainted KK>VI>from the sin of having sex during a "forbidden time". But I can't KK>VI>believe or accept that G*d would punish an innocent child for the sins KK>VI>of his/her parents. KK>Unfortunately that is how things work in the Jewish relgigion. For KK>example a child born out of wedlock is "tainted." A child born out of a KK>sinful marriage is also "tainted." I don't believe this is true. A person is responsible for his/her own actions. A person is NOT responsible and can not be punished or tainted by the acts of any other person--including his/her own parents. KK>VI>But for the parents themselves is the punishment for violating the laws KK>VI>of Niddah greater than the punishment for violating Sabbath? Can you KK>VI>try to be specific with reference to the punishment for violating KK>VI>Sabbath vs. the punishment for violating the laws of Niddah? I am KK>VI>really trying to sort this out. I feel like I can honestly say that I KK>VI>don't observe the laws of Sabbath YET and I would like to honestly find KK>[B>a way to start incorporating Sabbat into my life. But I can't honestly KK>VI>say the same about the laws of Niddah. KK>I would have to do some research, but off the top of my head, the KK>punishment for having intercourse with a Niddah is Karrus (no idea how KK>to spell this or transliterate it.). It is the same punishment as eating KK>Chametz on Passover. There are Midrashim on exactly what that punishment KK>is. The literal translation is "cutting." It can mean that the KK>individual will live a shortened life. It may mean that the individual KK>will have no children to carry on the family name. It may mean that the KK>individual's children will die at a young age. And it may mean something KK>in cutting off the individual in the "world to come." KK>Regarding the Sabbath, I think the general punishment was stoning if the KK>transgression was done on purpose with warning. I have finished the section on the laws of Niddah in the Biale book I mentioned. There were many, many interesting points that she raised. According to Biale, the laws of Niddah are based on two different Torah provisions, Chapter 15 of Leviticus which deals with bodily excretions which give rise to a state of impurity and Chapter 18 of Leviticus which lists all the sexual relationships which are prohibited. There is a contradiction between these two Torah portions because in Chapter 15 sexual contact with a menstruating woman causes a state of impurity, but there is no hint that it is considered a sin. In chapter 18 of Leviticus, sexual contact with a menstruating woman is labeled a sin--together with incest, adultery, bestiality and homosexuality. As per Biale, the punishment for violating Leviticus 18 is "karet" which is translated as being "cut off from his people". This is captial punishment inflicted by G*d, or by the hand of heaven, presumably by premature death. An offense punishable by karet is considered a very grave offense. In reading some of the restrictions that a menstruating woman is supposed to observe according to the laws of Niddah I can see that it would be impossible for me to follow these strictures. No physical contact with my beloved for a minimum of seven days a month? I couldn't even pass an inanitimate object to my beloved? And this is not demeaning!?! I'm sorry Sheldon, but every inner fiber of my body says that this is demeaning! Date: Monday, March 2, 1998 9:06pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 745003 To: Steve Flur Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #744984, Reply to #744951, Reply to #744928, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Just make sure you do what is necessary to kee SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I try. :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Including FULL annual check-ups? SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I go for annual gyn exams. But I haven't had a full ch SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>long, long time. However, at my gyn exam last week my SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>referred me to an internist for a FULL check up. And I SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>scheduled for next month. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I never thought annual exams were worth the effort until m SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>exam found unsuspected diabetes, hypertension, high choles SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>malignant tumor. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>OY! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>So, do definitely keep your scheduled appointment! SF>VI>SF>VI>I intend to! For one thing, both of my parents were diabetics. Wh SF>VI>SF>VI>prompted me to listen to my gyn and make the appointment is that I SF>VI>SF>VI>really bad "sugar high" the other day. What I mean by that is that SF>VI>SF>VI>had eaten a lot of sugary snacks and then felt kind of wierd. So I SF>VI>SF>VI>definitely want to be screened for diabetes. SF>VI>SF>If you check out fine, ask about diabetes prevention programs that exi SF>VI>SF>for people at risk due to family history. SF>VI>I definitely will! But I bet I can tell you what the advice basically SF>VI>is--eat a sensible diet which is low in fat, with lots of veggies and SF>VI>fiber; exercise regualarly and avoid sugary sweets. I TRY to do all SF>VI>these things now since they are critical to my weight maintaince. But SF>VI>it is hard for me to keep my craving for sweets and junk food under SF>VI>control. It is something I continually struggle with. At one time I SF>VI>weighed over 200 pounds so you know (a) that I used to have a big SF>VI>problem with my weight and (b) that I work hard to keep my weight at a SF>VI>reasonable level. SF>Ask about the programs, since they follow you much more closely than SF>just weight measurements to prevent the onset of diabetes. Assuming that I am told I am not diabetic now, I will definitely ask about it! Date: Monday, March 2, 1998 9:06pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 745004 To: Steve Flur Re: Quilt Text (Reply to #744985, Reply to #744952, Reply to #744929, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>I am glad you uploaded this. I read it also on gayjews. SF>VI>Yeah, I uploaded it to gayjews! :) SF>Your efforts are appreciated both here and on gayjews! Thank you! :) Date: Monday, March 2, 1998 9:08pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 745005 To: Steve C Re: Joke time (Reply to #744994, Reply to #744956) (2 replies) SC>VI>I hope none of my Christian friends find this offensive. This appeared SC>VI>on the Jewish humor e mail list. I thought it was really funny and SC>VI>really cute. SC>VI>================================================================ SC>VI> T H E J E W I S H H U M O R L I S T SC>VI>================================================================ SC>VI>Thanks to Dave Kaplan SC>VI>************************************************************** SC>Thank for posting this. I found it very entertaining, but after reading SC>how something that we Christians have thought of as a great occurance SC>is made to look so slimy using Starr's tactics, one wonders if Bill is SC>perhaps not as guilty as we think he is :) Actually, under Jewish law Bill is not guilty of adultery. A married man is not guilty of adultery so long as the "other woman" is not married to another man. Date: Tuesday, March 3, 1998 8:41am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 745011 To: Vida Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #745003, Reply to #744984, Reply to #744951, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Just make sure you do what is necessary to VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I try. :) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Including FULL annual check-ups? VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I go for annual gyn exams. But I haven't had a full VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>long, long time. However, at my gyn exam last week VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>referred me to an internist for a FULL check up. An VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>scheduled for next month. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I never thought annual exams were worth the effort unti VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>exam found unsuspected diabetes, hypertension, high cho VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>malignant tumor. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>OY! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>So, do definitely keep your scheduled appointment! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I intend to! For one thing, both of my parents were diabetics. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prompted me to listen to my gyn and make the appointment is that VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>really bad "sugar high" the other day. What I mean by that is t VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>had eaten a lot of sugary snacks and then felt kind of wierd. S VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>definitely want to be screened for diabetes. VI>SF>VI>SF>If you check out fine, ask about diabetes prevention programs that VI>SF>VI>SF>for people at risk due to family history. VI>SF>VI>I definitely will! But I bet I can tell you what the advice basically VI>SF>VI>is--eat a sensible diet which is low in fat, with lots of veggies and VI>SF>VI>fiber; exercise regualarly and avoid sugary sweets. I TRY to do all VI>SF>VI>these things now since they are critical to my weight maintaince. But VI>SF>VI>it is hard for me to keep my craving for sweets and junk food under VI>SF>VI>control. It is something I continually struggle with. At one time I VI>SF>VI>weighed over 200 pounds so you know (a) that I used to have a big VI>SF>VI>problem with my weight and (b) that I work hard to keep my weight at a VI>SF>VI>reasonable level. VI>SF>Ask about the programs, since they follow you much more closely than VI>SF>just weight measurements to prevent the onset of diabetes. VI>Assuming that I am told I am not diabetic now, I will definitely ask VI>about it! And you are absolutely sure you have had no symptoms to be concerned about? Date: Tuesday, March 3, 1998 8:42am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 745012 To: Vida Re: Quilt Text (Reply to #745004, Reply to #744985, Reply to #744952, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>I am glad you uploaded this. I read it also on gayjews. VI>SF>VI>Yeah, I uploaded it to gayjews! :) VI>SF>Your efforts are appreciated both here and on gayjews! VI>Thank you! :) Just keep us informed and educated. Date: Tuesday, March 3, 1998 2:02pm Forum: Theology From: Steve C Msg#: 745037 To: Vida Re: Joke time (Reply to #745005, Reply to #744994, Reply to #744956) (1 reply) VI>SC>Thank for posting this. I found it very entertaining, but after reading VI>SC>how something that we Christians have thought of as a great occurance VI>SC>is made to look so slimy using Starr's tactics, one wonders if Bill is VI>SC>perhaps not as guilty as we think he is :) VI>Actually, under Jewish law Bill is not guilty of adultery. A married VI>man is not guilty of adultery so long as the "other woman" is not VI>married to another man. Hmmmmm... Can I convert? :) * OLX 2.1 TD * Dilemma: BBSing? Chocolate? BBSing? Chocolate? Date: Tuesday, March 3, 1998 7:10pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 745053 To: Steve Flur Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #745011, Reply to #745003, Reply to #744984, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Just make sure you do what is necessary SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I try. :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Including FULL annual check-ups? SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I go for annual gyn exams. But I haven't had a f SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>long, long time. However, at my gyn exam last we SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>referred me to an internist for a FULL check up. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>scheduled for next month. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I never thought annual exams were worth the effort u SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>exam found unsuspected diabetes, hypertension, high SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>malignant tumor. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>OY! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>So, do definitely keep your scheduled appointment! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I intend to! For one thing, both of my parents were diabetic SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prompted me to listen to my gyn and make the appointment is t SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>really bad "sugar high" the other day. What I mean by that i SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>had eaten a lot of sugary snacks and then felt kind of wierd. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>definitely want to be screened for diabetes. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>If you check out fine, ask about diabetes prevention programs th SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>for people at risk due to family history. SF>VI>SF>VI>I definitely will! But I bet I can tell you what the advice basica SF>VI>SF>VI>is--eat a sensible diet which is low in fat, with lots of veggies a SF>VI>SF>VI>fiber; exercise regualarly and avoid sugary sweets. I TRY to do al SF>VI>SF>VI>these things now since they are critical to my weight maintaince. SF>VI>SF>VI>it is hard for me to keep my craving for sweets and junk food under SF>VI>SF>VI>control. It is something I continually struggle with. At one time SF>VI>SF>VI>weighed over 200 pounds so you know (a) that I used to have a big SF>VI>SF>VI>problem with my weight and (b) that I work hard to keep my weight a SF>VI>SF>VI>reasonable level. SF>VI>SF>Ask about the programs, since they follow you much more closely than SF>VI>SF>just weight measurements to prevent the onset of diabetes. SF>VI>Assuming that I am told I am not diabetic now, I will definitely ask SF>VI>about it! SF>And you are absolutely sure you have had no symptoms to be concerned SF>about? No, I am not sure. That's why I want to be screened. That "sugar high" incidient I had was very scary. And I pee constantly, which I know is a symptom of diabetes. Date: Tuesday, March 3, 1998 7:10pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 745054 To: Steve Flur Re: Quilt Text (Reply to #745012, Reply to #745004, Reply to #744985, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I am glad you uploaded this. I read it also on gayjews. SF>VI>SF>VI>Yeah, I uploaded it to gayjews! :) SF>VI>SF>Your efforts are appreciated both here and on gayjews! SF>VI>Thank you! :) SF>Just keep us informed and educated. I'll try. :) Date: Tuesday, March 3, 1998 7:12pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 745055 To: Steve C Re: Joke time (Reply to #745037, Reply to #745005, Reply to #744994, R*) (1 reply) SC>VI>SC>Thank for posting this. I found it very entertaining, but after readin SC>VI>SC>how something that we Christians have thought of as a great occurance SC>VI>SC>is made to look so slimy using Starr's tactics, one wonders if Bill is SC>VI>SC>perhaps not as guilty as we think he is :) SC>VI>Actually, under Jewish law Bill is not guilty of adultery. A married SC>VI>man is not guilty of adultery so long as the "other woman" is not SC>VI>married to another man. SC>Hmmmmm... Can I convert? :) You could convert but I think Marie would kill you if you ever "fooled around" with another woman. :) Date: Tuesday, March 3, 1998 9:32pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 745059 To: Vida Re: Ramblings (Reply to #745002, Reply to #744983, Reply to #744920, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>Unfortunately that is how things work in the Jewish relgigion. For VI>KK>example a child born out of wedlock is "tainted." A child born out of a VI>KK>sinful marriage is also "tainted." VI>I don't believe this is true. A person is responsible for his/her own VI>actions. A person is NOT responsible and can not be punished or VI>tainted by the acts of any other person--including his/her own parents. You don't have to believe that it is true :-) Date: Tuesday, March 3, 1998 9:34pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 745061 To: Vida Re: Joke time (Reply to #745005, Reply to #744994, Reply to #744956) (1 reply) VI>SC>Thank for posting this. I found it very entertaining, but after reading VI>SC>how something that we Christians have thought of as a great occurance VI>SC>is made to look so slimy using Starr's tactics, one wonders if Bill is VI>SC>perhaps not as guilty as we think he is :) VI>Actually, under Jewish law Bill is not guilty of adultery. A married VI>man is not guilty of adultery so long as the "other woman" is not VI>married to another man. Actually, Bill is not Jewish :-) Yeah, yeah....I know what you meant :-) Date: Wednesday, March 4, 1998 6:59am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 745087 To: Kkid Re: Ramblings (Reply to #745059, Reply to #745002, Reply to #744983, R*) KK>VI>KK>Unfortunately that is how things work in the Jewish relgigion. For KK>VI>KK>example a child born out of wedlock is "tainted." A child born out of KK>VI>KK>sinful marriage is also "tainted." KK>VI>I don't believe this is true. A person is responsible for his/her own KK>VI>actions. A person is NOT responsible and can not be punished or KK>VI>tainted by the acts of any other person--including his/her own parents. KK>You don't have to believe that it is true :-) True enough. :) Date: Wednesday, March 4, 1998 7:00am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 745088 To: Kkid Re: Joke time (Reply to #745061, Reply to #745005, Reply to #744994, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>SC>Thank for posting this. I found it very entertaining, but after readin KK>VI>SC>how something that we Christians have thought of as a great occurance KK>VI>SC>is made to look so slimy using Starr's tactics, one wonders if Bill is KK>VI>SC>perhaps not as guilty as we think he is :) KK>VI>Actually, under Jewish law Bill is not guilty of adultery. A married KK>VI>man is not guilty of adultery so long as the "other woman" is not KK>VI>married to another man. KK>Actually, Bill is not Jewish :-) Cute. KK>Yeah, yeah....I know what you meant :-) This is not something to smile about. It's something that as a feminist makes me absolutely NUTS! :( Date: Wednesday, March 4, 1998 11:49am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 745100 To: Vida Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #745053, Reply to #745011, Reply to #745003, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Just make sure you do what is necessa VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I try. :) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Including FULL annual check-ups? VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I go for annual gyn exams. But I haven't had VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>long, long time. However, at my gyn exam last VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>referred me to an internist for a FULL check u VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>scheduled for next month. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I never thought annual exams were worth the effor VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>exam found unsuspected diabetes, hypertension, hi VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>malignant tumor. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>OY! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>So, do definitely keep your scheduled appointment! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I intend to! For one thing, both of my parents were diabe VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prompted me to listen to my gyn and make the appointment i VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>really bad "sugar high" the other day. What I mean by tha VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>had eaten a lot of sugary snacks and then felt kind of wie VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>definitely want to be screened for diabetes. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>If you check out fine, ask about diabetes prevention programs VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>for people at risk due to family history. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I definitely will! But I bet I can tell you what the advice bas VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>is--eat a sensible diet which is low in fat, with lots of veggie VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>fiber; exercise regualarly and avoid sugary sweets. I TRY to do VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>these things now since they are critical to my weight maintaince VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>it is hard for me to keep my craving for sweets and junk food un VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>control. It is something I continually struggle with. At one t VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>weighed over 200 pounds so you know (a) that I used to have a b VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>problem with my weight and (b) that I work hard to keep my weigh VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>reasonable level. VI>SF>VI>SF>Ask about the programs, since they follow you much more closely tha VI>SF>VI>SF>just weight measurements to prevent the onset of diabetes. VI>SF>VI>Assuming that I am told I am not diabetic now, I will definitely ask VI>SF>VI>about it! VI>SF>And you are absolutely sure you have had no symptoms to be concerned VI>SF>about? VI>No, I am not sure. That's why I want to be screened. That "sugar VI>high" incidient I had was very scary. And I pee constantly, which I VI>know is a symptom of diabetes. Sounds like you have delayed long enough! Date: Wednesday, March 4, 1998 11:49am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 745101 To: Vida Re: Quilt Text (Reply to #745054, Reply to #745012, Reply to #745004, R*) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I am glad you uploaded this. I read it also on gayjews. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Yeah, I uploaded it to gayjews! :) VI>SF>VI>SF>Your efforts are appreciated both here and on gayjews! VI>SF>VI>Thank you! :) VI>SF>Just keep us informed and educated. VI>I'll try. :) And you succed very well! Date: Wednesday, March 4, 1998 3:23pm Forum: Theology From: Steve C Msg#: 745127 To: Vida Re: Joke time (Reply to #745055, Reply to #745037, Reply to #745005, R*) (1 reply) VI>SC>VI>Actually, under Jewish law Bill is not guilty of adultery. A married VI>SC>VI>man is not guilty of adultery so long as the "other woman" is not VI>SC>VI>married to another man. VI>SC>Hmmmmm... Can I convert? :) VI>You could convert but I think Marie would kill you if you ever "fooled VI>around" with another woman. :) Even if she gave me permission, I don't think I could do anything with another woman. First of all, It would have to be sexual in nature with no emotional baggage. I can't see many women agreeing with that. Secondly, I would feel so guilty that I probably wouldn't be able to perform anyway. * OLX 2.1 TD * To please everybody, one must be both wise & crazy! Date: Thursday, March 5, 1998 7:05am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 745149 To: Steve Flur Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #745100, Reply to #745053, Reply to #745011, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Just make sure you do what is nece SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I try. :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Including FULL annual check-ups? SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I go for annual gyn exams. But I haven't h SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>long, long time. However, at my gyn exam l SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>referred me to an internist for a FULL chec SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>scheduled for next month. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I never thought annual exams were worth the ef SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>exam found unsuspected diabetes, hypertension, SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>malignant tumor. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>OY! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>So, do definitely keep your scheduled appointment! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I intend to! For one thing, both of my parents were di SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prompted me to listen to my gyn and make the appointmen SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>really bad "sugar high" the other day. What I mean by SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>had eaten a lot of sugary snacks and then felt kind of SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>definitely want to be screened for diabetes. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>If you check out fine, ask about diabetes prevention progr SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>for people at risk due to family history. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I definitely will! But I bet I can tell you what the advice SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>is--eat a sensible diet which is low in fat, with lots of veg SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>fiber; exercise regualarly and avoid sugary sweets. I TRY to SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>these things now since they are critical to my weight maintai SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>it is hard for me to keep my craving for sweets and junk food SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>control. It is something I continually struggle with. At on SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>weighed over 200 pounds so you know (a) that I used to have SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>problem with my weight and (b) that I work hard to keep my we SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>reasonable level. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Ask about the programs, since they follow you much more closely SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>just weight measurements to prevent the onset of diabetes. SF>VI>SF>VI>Assuming that I am told I am not diabetic now, I will definitely as SF>VI>SF>VI>about it! SF>VI>SF>And you are absolutely sure you have had no symptoms to be concerned SF>VI>SF>about? SF>VI>No, I am not sure. That's why I want to be screened. That "sugar SF>VI>high" incidient I had was very scary. And I pee constantly, which I SF>VI>know is a symptom of diabetes. SF>Sounds like you have delayed long enough! Thanks a bunch buddy. :( Date: Thursday, March 5, 1998 7:07am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 745150 To: Steve C Re: Joke time (Reply to #745127, Reply to #745055, Reply to #745037, R*) (1 reply) SC>VI>SC>VI>Actually, under Jewish law Bill is not guilty of adultery. A marri SC>VI>SC>VI>man is not guilty of adultery so long as the "other woman" is not SC>VI>SC>VI>married to another man. SC>VI>SC>Hmmmmm... Can I convert? :) SC>VI>You could convert but I think Marie would kill you if you ever "fooled SC>VI>around" with another woman. :) SC>Even if she gave me permission, I don't think I could do anything with SC>another woman. First of all, It would have to be sexual in nature with SC>no emotional baggage. I can't see many women agreeing with that. SC>Secondly, I would feel so guilty that I probably wouldn't be able to SC>perform anyway. Knowing you, this is all true. :) And then again, even if your intention is to establish a purely a sexual relationship, you never know what will happen. When I first dated Bob, that was my intention. And as they say: "I fooled around and feel in love.: :) Date: Thursday, March 5, 1998 9:54am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 745151 To: Vida Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #745149, Reply to #745100, Reply to #745053, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Just make sure you do what is n VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I try. :) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Including FULL annual check-ups? VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I go for annual gyn exams. But I haven' VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>long, long time. However, at my gyn exa VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>referred me to an internist for a FULL c VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>scheduled for next month. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I never thought annual exams were worth the VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>exam found unsuspected diabetes, hypertensi VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>malignant tumor. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>OY! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>So, do definitely keep your scheduled appointment VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I intend to! For one thing, both of my parents were VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prompted me to listen to my gyn and make the appoint VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>really bad "sugar high" the other day. What I mean VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>had eaten a lot of sugary snacks and then felt kind VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>definitely want to be screened for diabetes. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>If you check out fine, ask about diabetes prevention pr VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>for people at risk due to family history. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I definitely will! But I bet I can tell you what the advi VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>is--eat a sensible diet which is low in fat, with lots of VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>fiber; exercise regualarly and avoid sugary sweets. I TRY VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>these things now since they are critical to my weight main VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>it is hard for me to keep my craving for sweets and junk f VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>control. It is something I continually struggle with. At VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>weighed over 200 pounds so you know (a) that I used to ha VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>problem with my weight and (b) that I work hard to keep my VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>reasonable level. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Ask about the programs, since they follow you much more close VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>just weight measurements to prevent the onset of diabetes. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Assuming that I am told I am not diabetic now, I will definitely VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>about it! VI>SF>VI>SF>And you are absolutely sure you have had no symptoms to be concerne VI>SF>VI>SF>about? VI>SF>VI>No, I am not sure. That's why I want to be screened. That "sugar VI>SF>VI>high" incidient I had was very scary. And I pee constantly, which I VI>SF>VI>know is a symptom of diabetes. VI>SF>Sounds like you have delayed long enough! VI>Thanks a bunch buddy. :( I, unfortunately, speak with a year's experience, trying to undo possibly years of asymptomatic, diabetes, high blood pressure, high cholesteral,etc. Date: Thursday, March 5, 1998 4:25pm Forum: Theology From: Steve C Msg#: 745179 To: Vida Re: Joke time (Reply to #745150, Reply to #745127, Reply to #745055, R*) (1 reply) VI>And then again, even if your intention is to establish a purely a VI>sexual relationship, you never know what will happen. When I first VI>dated Bob, that was my intention. And as they say: "I fooled around VI>and feel in love.: :) Knowing Bob, I'm sure it was hard to resist him. some of us guys are like that. * OLX 2.1 TD * ...Alas! The poor Tagline. I knew it well. Date: Thursday, March 5, 1998 8:25pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 745202 To: Vida Re: Joke time (Reply to #745088, Reply to #745061, Reply to #745005, R*) (2 replies) VI>KK>VI>Actually, under Jewish law Bill is not guilty of adultery. A married VI>KK>VI>man is not guilty of adultery so long as the "other woman" is not VI>KK>VI>married to another man. VI>KK>Actually, Bill is not Jewish :-) VI>Cute. VI>KK>Yeah, yeah....I know what you meant :-) VI>This is not something to smile about. It's something that as a VI>feminist makes me absolutely NUTS! :( The married man "cavorting" with a non married other woman may not be guilty of adultery, but the Rabbis did have some not nice things to say about such an individual. (Somewhere in the Talmud. I am not sure but they may even have proscribed the punishment of flogging for such an individual). Date: Friday, March 6, 1998 9:43am Forum: Theology From: Editor Msg#: 745218 To: Kkid Re: Joke time (Reply to #745202, Reply to #745088, Reply to #745061, R*) (1 reply) K >The married man "cavorting" with a non married other woman may not be K >guilty of adultery, but the Rabbis did have some not nice things to sa K >about such an individual. (Somewhere in the Talmud. I am not sure but K >they may even have proscribed the punishment of flogging for such an K >individual). By the way, very recently in The New Republic, there was an interesting article on this whole event but purely from the point of view of the lies told. They made a number of Talmudic references to lying, when it was permissible, and so on. If you can get access to it you might find it interesting. I think it was in mid-February. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Friday, March 6, 1998 11:33am Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 745219 To: Editor Re: Joke time (Reply to #745218, Reply to #745202, Reply to #745088, R*) (1 reply) ED>K >The married man "cavorting" with a non married other woman may not be ED>K >guilty of adultery, but the Rabbis did have some not nice things to sa ED>K >about such an individual. (Somewhere in the Talmud. I am not sure but ED>K >they may even have proscribed the punishment of flogging for such an ED>K >individual). ED>By the way, very recently in The New Republic, there was an interesting ED>article on this whole event but purely from the point of view of the lies ED>told. They made a number of Talmudic references to lying, when it was ED>permissible, and so on. If you can get access to it you might find it ED>interesting. I think it was in mid-February. ED> One generality is that lying is permitted when "Shalom Bais" is at stake. Shalom Bais means peace in the house. In other words if the pres would not have lied, perhaps there would be divorce proceedings going on right now. Odds are though, that Hillary is aware of everything he does, and he is aware of everything she does :-) Date: Friday, March 6, 1998 8:22pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 745241 To: Steve Flur Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #745151, Reply to #745149, Reply to #745100, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Just make sure you do what i SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I try. :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Including FULL annual check-ups? SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I go for annual gyn exams. But I hav SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>long, long time. However, at my gyn SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>referred me to an internist for a FUL SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>scheduled for next month. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I never thought annual exams were worth SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>exam found unsuspected diabetes, hyperte SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>malignant tumor. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>OY! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>So, do definitely keep your scheduled appointm SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I intend to! For one thing, both of my parents w SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prompted me to listen to my gyn and make the appo SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>really bad "sugar high" the other day. What I me SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>had eaten a lot of sugary snacks and then felt ki SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>definitely want to be screened for diabetes. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>If you check out fine, ask about diabetes prevention SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>for people at risk due to family history. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I definitely will! But I bet I can tell you what the a SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>is--eat a sensible diet which is low in fat, with lots SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>fiber; exercise regualarly and avoid sugary sweets. I SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>these things now since they are critical to my weight m SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>it is hard for me to keep my craving for sweets and jun SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>control. It is something I continually struggle with. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>weighed over 200 pounds so you know (a) that I used to SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>problem with my weight and (b) that I work hard to keep SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>reasonable level. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Ask about the programs, since they follow you much more cl SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>just weight measurements to prevent the onset of diabetes. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Assuming that I am told I am not diabetic now, I will definit SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>about it! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>And you are absolutely sure you have had no symptoms to be conce SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>about? SF>VI>SF>VI>No, I am not sure. That's why I want to be screened. That "sugar SF>VI>SF>VI>high" incidient I had was very scary. And I pee constantly, which SF>VI>SF>VI>know is a symptom of diabetes. SF>VI>SF>Sounds like you have delayed long enough! SF>VI>Thanks a bunch buddy. :( SF>I, unfortunately, speak with a year's experience, trying to undo SF>possibly years of asymptomatic, diabetes, high blood pressure, high SF>cholesteral,etc. Well the appointment is for March 15, so all I can do for now is wait. Date: Friday, March 6, 1998 8:24pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 745242 To: Steve C Re: Joke time (Reply to #745179, Reply to #745150, Reply to #745127, R*) SC>VI>And then again, even if your intention is to establish a purely a SC>VI>sexual relationship, you never know what will happen. When I first SC>VI>dated Bob, that was my intention. And as they say: "I fooled around SC>VI>and feel in love.: :) SC>Knowing Bob, I'm sure it was hard to resist him. SC>some of us guys are like that. The thing I love about Bob is that he is so gentle and loving toward me. He has been there for me when I have really needed me. :) Date: Friday, March 6, 1998 8:26pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 745243 To: Kkid Re: Joke time (Reply to #745202, Reply to #745088, Reply to #745061, R*) KK>VI>KK>VI>Actually, under Jewish law Bill is not guilty of adultery. A marri KK>VI>KK>VI>man is not guilty of adultery so long as the "other woman" is not KK>VI>KK>VI>married to another man. KK>VI>KK>Actually, Bill is not Jewish :-) KK>VI>Cute. KK>VI>KK>Yeah, yeah....I know what you meant :-) KK>VI>This is not something to smile about. It's something that as a KK>VI>feminist makes me absolutely NUTS! :( KK>The married man "cavorting" with a non married other woman may not be KK>guilty of adultery, but the Rabbis did have some not nice things to say KK>about such an individual. (Somewhere in the Talmud. I am not sure but KK>they may even have proscribed the punishment of flogging for such an KK>individual). But the punishment was no where near the same. If they have a child out of wedlock the child is not considered a "bastard". If a married woman has a child out of wedlock the child is a "bastard" and is only allowed to marry other "bastards". Date: Friday, March 6, 1998 10:00pm Forum: Theology From: Editor Msg#: 745248 To: Kkid Re: Joke time (Reply to #745219, Reply to #745218, Reply to #745202, R*) K >ED>By the way, very recently in The New Republic, there was an intere K >ED>article on this whole event but purely from the point of view of th K >ED>told. They made a number of Talmudic references to lying, when it w K >ED>permissible, and so on. If you can get access to it you might find K >ED>interesting. I think it was in mid-February. K >ED> K > K >One generality is that lying is permitted when "Shalom Bais" is at K >stake. Shalom Bais means peace in the house. In other words if the pre K >would not have lied, perhaps there would be divorce proceedings going K >right now. K >Odds are though, that Hillary is aware of everything he does, and he i K >aware of everything she does :-) I wish I had the article here, but I think it listed three cases where lying was permitted, or even required. I'm sure I'm going to get this wrong, but if asked if you know a passage in the Torah, you are permitted to say no so as not to appear immodest. The third involved direct questions about marital relations. Don't remember the second. The author spent some time talking about how Clinton danced around those three choices. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Monday, March 9, 1998 1:13pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 745281 To: Vida Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #745241, Reply to #745151, Reply to #745149, R*) (1 reply) A Sunday appointment......how convenient! Date: Monday, March 9, 1998 7:15pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 745289 To: Steve Flur Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #745281, Reply to #745241, Reply to #745151, R*) (1 reply) SF>A Sunday appointment......how convenient! Actually it was for Friday. And I just got a call from the doctor rescheduling the apointment until NEXT Friday. So now I have to wait yet another week! :( Date: Tuesday, March 10, 1998 8:30am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 745294 To: Vida Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #745289, Reply to #745281, Reply to #745241, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>A Sunday appointment......how convenient! VI>Actually it was for Friday. And I just got a call from the doctor VI>rescheduling the apointment until NEXT Friday. So now I have to wait VI>yet another week! :( Whatever the date KEEP THE APPOINTMENT!!!! Date: Wednesday, March 11, 1998 6:26am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 745317 To: ** ALL ** Re: An apology (1 reply) I am afraid I owe an apology to the folks on the list regarding a story I republished here from the net re: the Orthodox religious court requiring a religious man to say that he did not believe that his wife was raped. It appears that the story was not true. This is just a reminder to the folks here that I am not a reporter or a journalist and do not fact check any of the story I republish here from the net. Here is another story, among the group of many others, which I have read stating that the original story was untrue. Again, please accept my apologies. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 20:53:35 EST [copied from The Washington Times, March 10, page A13] ISRAELI NEWSPAPER APOLOGIZES FOR STORY JERUSALEM -- One of Israel's largest newspapers apologized to its readers yesterday for publishing an unsubstantiated story about a religious court forcing a man to divorce his wife because she was raped. A leading rabbi had denounced the story as a hoax. In a back page "clarification," the Yediot Ahronot newspaper said it had checked the story and "beyond rumors on the subject, we didn't find any facts." "The editors apologize for the story, and steps were taken to prevent such a case from recurring," the paper said yesterday. The story had drawn fierce protest from women's groups and lawmakers when it was published Feb. 25. >From wire dispatches and staff reports Date: Wednesday, March 11, 1998 6:33am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 745321 To: Steve Flur Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #745294, Reply to #745289, Reply to #745281, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>A Sunday appointment......how convenient! SF>VI>Actually it was for Friday. And I just got a call from the doctor SF>VI>rescheduling the apointment until NEXT Friday. So now I have to wait SF>VI>yet another week! :( SF>Whatever the date KEEP THE APPOINTMENT!!!! I certainly will. Date: Wednesday, March 11, 1998 8:41am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 745322 To: Vida Re: An apology (Reply to #745317) (1 reply) Do not be too hard on yourself, since many others were convinced this was a true story. Date: Wednesday, March 11, 1998 8:41am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 745323 To: Vida Re: The laws of Nidah (Reply to #745321, Reply to #745294, Reply to #745289, R*) VI>SF>VI>SF>A Sunday appointment......how convenient! VI>SF>VI>Actually it was for Friday. And I just got a call from the doctor VI>SF>VI>rescheduling the apointment until NEXT Friday. So now I have to wait VI>SF>VI>yet another week! :( VI>SF>Whatever the date KEEP THE APPOINTMENT!!!! VI>I certainly will. GOOD!!!!!!! Date: Thursday, March 12, 1998 2:35am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 745342 To: Steve Flur Re: An apology (Reply to #745322, Reply to #745317) (2 replies) SF>Do not be too hard on yourself, since many others were convinced this SF>was a true story. I am not being too hard on myself. Just wanted to alert our friends here on AH that the story now appears to be a hoax. Date: Thursday, March 12, 1998 9:32am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 745346 To: Vida Re: An apology (Reply to #745342, Reply to #745322, Reply to #745317) VI>SF>Do not be too hard on yourself, since many others were convinced this VI>SF>was a true story. VI>I am not being too hard on myself. Just wanted to alert our friends VI>here on AH that the story now appears to be a hoax. And you did that just fine! Date: Thursday, March 12, 1998 9:57am Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 745348 To: Vida Re: An apology (Reply to #745342, Reply to #745322, Reply to #745317) (1 reply) VI>SF>Do not be too hard on yourself, since many others were convinced this VI>SF>was a true story. VI>I am not being too hard on myself. Just wanted to alert our friends VI>here on AH that the story now appears to be a hoax. It appeared to be a hoax as soon as you posted it here. It was labeled a hoax in one of the Jewish newsgroups immediately. It did not generate any major discussion here so I did not bother mentioning that it was a hoax here. Anyway who would have believed me. People believe what they wish. Perhaps the story labeling it a hoax is a hoax :-) Date: Friday, March 13, 1998 3:10am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 745360 To: Kkid Re: An apology (Reply to #745348, Reply to #745342, Reply to #745322, R*) KK>VI>SF>Do not be too hard on yourself, since many others were convinced this KK>VI>SF>was a true story. KK>VI>I am not being too hard on myself. Just wanted to alert our friends KK>VI>here on AH that the story now appears to be a hoax. KK>It appeared to be a hoax as soon as you posted it here. It was labeled a KK>hoax in one of the Jewish newsgroups immediately. It did not generate KK>any major discussion here so I did not bother mentioning that it was a KK>hoax here. Anyway who would have believed me. People believe what they KK>wish. Perhaps the story labeling it a hoax is a hoax :-) It may have been labeled as a hoax immediately on the Jewish news groups you read (I assume you are talking about soc.jewish are other such news groups in which ORTHODOX Jews predominate.) But on the liberal/progressive Jewish e mail lists which I read this story was believed initially. And taken seriously. I personally believed the story initially. Otherwisde I never would have posted it here. I would never knowingly republish a story here that I thought was a hoax. Nor would I ever knowingly participate in a hoax or a fraud here. That was the reason why I apologize to the board for republishing the story even though the story had originally generated no comment. I would appreciate it if, in the future, I publish something about Orthodox Judasim that does not sound kosher to you that you would bring it to my attention. First of all, I view you as my unofficial spokesman for traditional, Orthodox Judaism. While Steve Flur is an Orthodox Jew he is definitely not traditional because he is a gay man. Secondly, when you make a statement concerning Orthodox Judaism I believe that your statement to be true. Or more accurately, I believe that the statement reflects traditional Orthodox Judaism as practiced by Jews in such places as Boro Park. :) Date: Wednesday, March 18, 1998 3:37am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 745440 To: ** ALL ** Re: The Stranger Among Us:The Challenge in Israel As part of BJ's celebration of Israel's 50th anniversary there will be a special Shabbat B'Yachad dinner on Friday, April 3, following the 6 PM service. Shabbat B'Yachad dinners usually feature singing, study and of course kosher food. The topic will be "The Strangers Among Us: The Challenge in Israel Today". As the Kol Jeshurun (BJ's give away newsletter) describes it: "A Jewish response to how Israeli society views the "other": Palestinians, gays and lesbians, foreign workers. At this special Shabbat B'Yacchad dinner we will welcome Shabat with an evening study with Rabbi David Lazar who presently serves as Rabbi of Kehilat Ya'ar Ramot in Jersusalem.". The event will start after the 6 PM service at BJ's synagogue, 257 West 88th Street., which is located between Broadway and West End Avenue. You can get there by taking the "1" or "9" Broadway local to the 86th Street stop. The cost is $30 for nonmembers. If any one is SINCERLY interested in going please drop me an e mail in private right away. Date: Monday, March 23, 1998 6:33am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 745508 To: ** ALL ** Re: Duke vs. Kentucky (2 replies) It was a good game. Unfortunately the wrong team won. Date: Monday, March 23, 1998 9:06am Forum: Theology From: Editor Msg#: 745511 To: Vida Re: Duke vs. Kentucky (Reply to #745508) (1 reply) V >It was a good game. Unfortunately the wrong team won. Amusing that this is posted in /Theology. It explains alot. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Monday, March 23, 1998 1:22pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 745518 To: Vida Re: Duke vs. Kentucky (Reply to #745508) (1 reply) VI>It was a good game. Unfortunately the wrong team won. And what is the theological impact of the game? Date: Monday, March 23, 1998 10:18pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 745526 To: Editor Re: Duke vs. Kentucky (Reply to #745511, Reply to #745508) ED>V >It was a good game. Unfortunately the wrong team won. ED>Amusing that this is posted in /Theology. It explains alot. Yeah, I figured someone would comment on that slip. :) Date: Monday, March 23, 1998 10:19pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 745527 To: Steve Flur Re: Duke vs. Kentucky (Reply to #745518, Reply to #745508) (1 reply) SF>VI>It was a good game. Unfortunately the wrong team won. SF>And what is the theological impact of the game? Instant karma came and got me. :) Date: Tuesday, March 24, 1998 9:02am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 745533 To: Vida Re: Duke vs. Kentucky (Reply to #745527, Reply to #745518, Reply to #745508) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>It was a good game. Unfortunately the wrong team won. VI>SF>And what is the theological impact of the game? VI>Instant karma came and got me. :) So.....where are you now? Date: Wednesday, March 25, 1998 6:56pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 745550 To: Steve Flur Re: Duke vs. Kentucky (Reply to #745533, Reply to #745527, Reply to #745518, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>It was a good game. Unfortunately the wrong team won. SF>VI>SF>And what is the theological impact of the game? SF>VI>Instant karma came and got me. :) SF>So.....where are you now? Somewhere over the rainbow? :) Date: Thursday, March 26, 1998 8:26am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 745561 To: Vida Re: Duke vs. Kentucky (Reply to #745550, Reply to #745533, Reply to #745527, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>It was a good game. Unfortunately the wrong team won. VI>SF>VI>SF>And what is the theological impact of the game? VI>SF>VI>Instant karma came and got me. :) VI>SF>So.....where are you now? VI>Somewhere over the rainbow? :) Have you found the pot of gold yet? Date: Friday, March 27, 1998 3:03am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 745571 To: Steve Flur Re: Duke vs. Kentucky (Reply to #745561, Reply to #745550, Reply to #745533, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>It was a good game. Unfortunately the wrong team won. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>And what is the theological impact of the game? SF>VI>SF>VI>Instant karma came and got me. :) SF>VI>SF>So.....where are you now? SF>VI>Somewhere over the rainbow? :) SF>Have you found the pot of gold yet? Still searching. :) Date: Monday, March 30, 1998 11:37am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 745600 To: Vida Re: Duke vs. Kentucky (Reply to #745571, Reply to #745561, Reply to #745550, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>It was a good game. Unfortunately the wrong team won. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>And what is the theological impact of the game? VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Instant karma came and got me. :) VI>SF>VI>SF>So.....where are you now? VI>SF>VI>Somewhere over the rainbow? :) VI>SF>Have you found the pot of gold yet? VI>Still searching. :) Don't give up. Date: Thursday, April 2, 1998 3:32am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 745638 To: Steve Flur Re: Duke vs. Kentucky (Reply to #745600, Reply to #745571, Reply to #745561, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>It was a good game. Unfortunately the wrong team won. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>And what is the theological impact of the game? SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Instant karma came and got me. :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>So.....where are you now? SF>VI>SF>VI>Somewhere over the rainbow? :) SF>VI>SF>Have you found the pot of gold yet? SF>VI>Still searching. :) SF>Don't give up. I don't intend to. :) Date: Thursday, April 2, 1998 3:06pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 745653 To: Vida Re: Duke vs. Kentucky (Reply to #745638, Reply to #745600, Reply to #745571, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>It was a good game. Unfortunately the wrong team wo VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>And what is the theological impact of the game? VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Instant karma came and got me. :) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>So.....where are you now? VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Somewhere over the rainbow? :) VI>SF>VI>SF>Have you found the pot of gold yet? VI>SF>VI>Still searching. :) VI>SF>Don't give up. VI>I don't intend to. :) When you find it, will you be shareing the wealth? Date: Thursday, April 2, 1998 10:01pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 745662 To: Steve Flur Re: Duke vs. Kentucky (Reply to #745653, Reply to #745638, Reply to #745600, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>It was a good game. Unfortunately the wrong team SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>And what is the theological impact of the game? SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Instant karma came and got me. :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>So.....where are you now? SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Somewhere over the rainbow? :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Have you found the pot of gold yet? SF>VI>SF>VI>Still searching. :) SF>VI>SF>Don't give up. SF>VI>I don't intend to. :) SF>When you find it, will you be shareing the wealth? Let me find it first, then we can discuss that possiblity. :) Date: Friday, April 3, 1998 9:35am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 745671 To: Vida Re: Duke vs. Kentucky (Reply to #745662, Reply to #745653, Reply to #745638, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>It was a good game. Unfortunately the wrong t VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>And what is the theological impact of the game? VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Instant karma came and got me. :) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>So.....where are you now? VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Somewhere over the rainbow? :) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Have you found the pot of gold yet? VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Still searching. :) VI>SF>VI>SF>Don't give up. VI>SF>VI>I don't intend to. :) VI>SF>When you find it, will you be shareing the wealth? VI>Let me find it first, then we can discuss that possiblity. :) As a lawyer I would have thought you would want to set up a pre-find agreement. Date: Monday, April 6, 1998 5:59am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 745728 To: Steve Flur Re: Duke vs. Kentucky (Reply to #745671, Reply to #745662, Reply to #745653, R*) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>It was a good game. Unfortunately the wron SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>And what is the theological impact of the game SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Instant karma came and got me. :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>So.....where are you now? SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Somewhere over the rainbow? :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Have you found the pot of gold yet? SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Still searching. :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Don't give up. SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't intend to. :) SF>VI>SF>When you find it, will you be shareing the wealth? SF>VI>Let me find it first, then we can discuss that possiblity. :) SF>As a lawyer I would have thought you would want to set up a pre-find SF>agreement. :) Date: Tuesday, April 28, 1998 7:06am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746107 To: Kkid Re: The linear siddur (2 replies) I checked out Artscroll's linear transliterated siddur at J. Levine's yesterday. Unfortunately, I really can't use it. For what ever reason Artscroll only published this siddur in the "Ashkenaz" version, not the "Sefard" version. However, almost every nonOrthodox congregration uses the "Sephardic" pronouncation as standard. So if I tried to learn the prayers by using this book I would end up saying things "wrong". :( It's really sad that Artscroll does not publish a linear/transliterated Sefardic siddur. It would be very useful to me, especially since the Conservative movement siddur that we use at BJ (called "Siddur Sim Shalom") makes relatively minor changes from the traditional, Orthodox siddur. Date: Tuesday, April 28, 1998 9:37am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 746115 To: Vida Re: The linear siddur (Reply to #746107) (1 reply) VI>I checked out Artscroll's linear transliterated siddur at J. Levine's VI>yesterday. Unfortunately, I really can't use it. VI>For what ever reason Artscroll only published this siddur in the VI>"Ashkenaz" version, not the "Sefard" version. However, almost every VI>nonOrthodox congregration uses the "Sephardic" pronouncation as VI>standard. So if I tried to learn the prayers by using this book I VI>would end up saying things "wrong". :( VI>It's really sad that Artscroll does not publish a VI>linear/transliterated Sefardic siddur. It would be very useful to me, VI>especially since the Conservative movement siddur that we use at BJ VI>(called "Siddur Sim Shalom") makes relatively minor changes from the VI>traditional, Orthodox siddur. You appear to be mixing up Ash/Seph pronunciation and Ash/Seph order of prayer, which is what is refered to by labeling siddurim. Date: Wednesday, April 29, 1998 6:21am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746134 To: Steve Flur Re: The linear siddur (Reply to #746115, Reply to #746107) (1 reply) SF>VI>I checked out Artscroll's linear transliterated siddur at J. Levine's SF>VI>yesterday. Unfortunately, I really can't use it. SF>VI>For what ever reason Artscroll only published this siddur in the SF>VI>"Ashkenaz" version, not the "Sefard" version. However, almost every SF>VI>nonOrthodox congregration uses the "Sephardic" pronouncation as SF>VI>standard. So if I tried to learn the prayers by using this book I SF>VI>would end up saying things "wrong". :( SF>VI>It's really sad that Artscroll does not publish a SF>VI>linear/transliterated Sefardic siddur. It would be very useful to me, SF>VI>especially since the Conservative movement siddur that we use at BJ SF>VI>(called "Siddur Sim Shalom") makes relatively minor changes from the SF>VI>traditional, Orthodox siddur. SF>You appear to be mixing up Ash/Seph pronunciation and Ash/Seph order of SF>prayer, which is what is refered to by labeling siddurim. Not at all Steve. I looked at the siddur. It has the Ashkenzic pronunciation of the words. Ie., "shabbos" rather than "shabbat". Date: Wednesday, April 29, 1998 11:13am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 746140 To: Vida Re: The linear siddur (Reply to #746134, Reply to #746115, Reply to #746107) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>I checked out Artscroll's linear transliterated siddur at J. Levine's VI>SF>VI>yesterday. Unfortunately, I really can't use it. VI>SF>VI>For what ever reason Artscroll only published this siddur in the VI>SF>VI>"Ashkenaz" version, not the "Sefard" version. However, almost every VI>SF>VI>nonOrthodox congregration uses the "Sephardic" pronouncation as VI>SF>VI>standard. So if I tried to learn the prayers by using this book I VI>SF>VI>would end up saying things "wrong". :( VI>SF>VI>It's really sad that Artscroll does not publish a VI>SF>VI>linear/transliterated Sefardic siddur. It would be very useful to me, VI>SF>VI>especially since the Conservative movement siddur that we use at BJ VI>SF>VI>(called "Siddur Sim Shalom") makes relatively minor changes from the VI>SF>VI>traditional, Orthodox siddur. VI>SF>You appear to be mixing up Ash/Seph pronunciation and Ash/Seph order of VI>SF>prayer, which is what is refered to by labeling siddurim. VI>Not at all Steve. I looked at the siddur. It has the Ashkenzic VI>pronunciation of the words. Ie., "shabbos" rather than "shabbat". What you are looking for may only exist in Israel. Date: Wednesday, April 29, 1998 7:05pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 746147 To: Vida Re: The linear siddur (Reply to #746107) (1 reply) VI>I checked out Artscroll's linear transliterated siddur at J. Levine's VI>yesterday. Unfortunately, I really can't use it. VI>For what ever reason Artscroll only published this siddur in the VI>"Ashkenaz" version, not the "Sefard" version. However, almost every VI>nonOrthodox congregration uses the "Sephardic" pronouncation as VI>standard. So if I tried to learn the prayers by using this book I VI>would end up saying things "wrong". :( VI>It's really sad that Artscroll does not publish a VI>linear/transliterated Sefardic siddur. It would be very useful to me, VI>especially since the Conservative movement siddur that we use at BJ VI>(called "Siddur Sim Shalom") makes relatively minor changes from the VI>traditional, Orthodox siddur. When I have a chance I will take a look at the siddur. Your post does not make sense to me as I think you are still mixing up the terms ashkenaz and sefard. When referring to a siddur as being ashkenaz or sefard one is not speaking about the pronunciation. I think you DO mean the pronounciation. Date: Friday, May 1, 1998 7:31am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746166 To: Steve Flur Re: The linear siddur (Reply to #746140, Reply to #746134, Reply to #746115, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>You appear to be mixing up Ash/Seph pronunciation and Ash/Seph order o SF>VI>SF>prayer, which is what is refered to by labeling siddurim. SF>VI>Not at all Steve. I looked at the siddur. It has the Ashkenzic SF>VI>pronunciation of the words. Ie., "shabbos" rather than "shabbat". SF>What you are looking for may only exist in Israel. Artscroll puts out a Sephardic siddur. I know it also has the Sephardic order of the prayer but a linear/transliterated version of THAT siddur would be quite useful to me. BTW, I spoke to the owner of J. Levine and he agreed with me. The store owner suggested to Artscroll that they publish a linear/transliterated Sephardic siddur. He said that most of his customers who have need for a transliterated siddur are from the NonOrthodox streams of Judaism--and therefore use the Sephardic prouncation of the Hebrew prayers. I have been reading on Tor-ch (The semi official Conservative Jewish e mail list) that the Conservative movement is currently revising "Siddur Sim Shalom". It will be interesting to see if the new version of the Conservative siddur is transliterated and if it uses the linear/transliterated format which is so useful to those of us who are struggling to learn Hebrew. The current version of "Siddur Sim Shalom" is Hebrew on the right page, English translation on the left page with no transliteration at all. At BJ, btw, they have a booklet inserted in the rear of the siddur which contains the transliteration of the Hebrew prayers they normally say during the service. They don't skip very much at BJ, so BJ has transliterated almost the entire kabbalat shabbat service and all of the Saturday services through havadalah. (Saturday morning at BJ is VERY LONG. On the few occasions that I have gone to BJ on Saturday, the service began at 9:30 AM and the Torah service did not end until after 1 PM!!!!.) Date: Friday, May 1, 1998 7:39am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746167 To: Kkid Re: The linear siddur (Reply to #746147, Reply to #746107) (1 reply) KK>VI>I checked out Artscroll's linear transliterated siddur at J. Levine's KK>VI>yesterday. Unfortunately, I really can't use it. KK>VI>For what ever reason Artscroll only published this siddur in the KK>VI>"Ashkenaz" version, not the "Sefard" version. However, almost every KK>VI>nonOrthodox congregration uses the "Sephardic" pronouncation as KK>VI>standard. So if I tried to learn the prayers by using this book I KK>VI>would end up saying things "wrong". :( KK>VI>It's really sad that Artscroll does not publish a KK>VI>linear/transliterated Sefardic siddur. It would be very useful to me, KK>VI>especially since the Conservative movement siddur that we use at BJ KK>VI>(called "Siddur Sim Shalom") makes relatively minor changes from the KK>VI>traditional, Orthodox siddur. KK>When I have a chance I will take a look at the siddur. Your post does KK>not make sense to me as I think you are still mixing up the terms KK>ashkenaz and sefard. When referring to a siddur as being ashkenaz or KK>sefard one is not speaking about the pronunciation. I think you DO mean KK>the pronounciation. What I am talking about is the pronouncation. For example, "Tallis" (askenaz") vs. "tallit" (sefard). "Shabbos" (askenaz) vs. "shabbat" (sefard). I understand that there is also a sefardic order of prayer which is different from the askenaz order of prayer. As I explained to Steve Flur, a linear/transliterated Sephardic siddur which follows the sephardic order of prayer would be quite useful to me. The askenaz version is not very useful since it is teaching me the wrong pronouncation. Date: Friday, May 1, 1998 8:57am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 746173 To: Vida Re: The linear siddur (Reply to #746166, Reply to #746140, Reply to #746134, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>You appear to be mixing up Ash/Seph pronunciation and Ash/Seph orde VI>SF>VI>SF>prayer, which is what is refered to by labeling siddurim. VI>SF>VI>Not at all Steve. I looked at the siddur. It has the Ashkenzic VI>SF>VI>pronunciation of the words. Ie., "shabbos" rather than "shabbat". VI>SF>What you are looking for may only exist in Israel. VI>Artscroll puts out a Sephardic siddur. I know it also has the VI>Sephardic order of the prayer but a linear/transliterated version of VI>THAT siddur would be quite useful to me. VI>BTW, I spoke to the owner of J. Levine and he agreed with me. The VI>store owner suggested to Artscroll that they publish a VI>linear/transliterated Sephardic siddur. He said that most of his VI>customers who have need for a transliterated siddur are from the VI>NonOrthodox streams of Judaism--and therefore use the Sephardic VI>prouncation of the Hebrew prayers. VI>I have been reading on Tor-ch (The semi official Conservative Jewish e VI>mail list) that the Conservative movement is currently revising "Siddur VI>Sim Shalom". VI>It will be interesting to see if the new version of the Conservative VI>siddur is transliterated and if it uses the linear/transliterated VI>format which is so useful to those of us who are struggling to learn VI>Hebrew. VI>The current version of "Siddur Sim Shalom" is Hebrew on the right page, VI>English translation on the left page with no transliteration at all. VI>At BJ, btw, they have a booklet inserted in the rear of the siddur VI>which contains the transliteration of the Hebrew prayers they normally VI>say during the service. VI>They don't skip very much at BJ, so BJ has transliterated almost the VI>entire kabbalat shabbat service and all of the Saturday services VI>through havadalah. (Saturday morning at BJ is VERY LONG. On the few VI>occasions that I have gone to BJ on Saturday, the service began at 9:30 VI>AM and the Torah service did not end until after 1 PM!!!!.) My father learned his basic hebrew using transliteration as his beginning. At that time I was the one who had to write out the prayers for him, especially the Kaddish after his parents died. Date: Saturday, May 2, 1998 8:26am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746195 To: Steve Flur Re: The linear siddur (Reply to #746173, Reply to #746166, Reply to #746140, R*) (2 replies) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You appear to be mixing up Ash/Seph pronunciation and Ash/Seph o SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>prayer, which is what is refered to by labeling siddurim. SF>VI>SF>VI>Not at all Steve. I looked at the siddur. It has the Ashkenzic SF>VI>SF>VI>pronunciation of the words. Ie., "shabbos" rather than "shabbat". SF>VI>SF>What you are looking for may only exist in Israel. SF>VI>Artscroll puts out a Sephardic siddur. I know it also has the SF>VI>Sephardic order of the prayer but a linear/transliterated version of SF>VI>THAT siddur would be quite useful to me. SF>VI>BTW, I spoke to the owner of J. Levine and he agreed with me. The SF>VI>store owner suggested to Artscroll that they publish a SF>VI>linear/transliterated Sephardic siddur. He said that most of his SF>VI>customers who have need for a transliterated siddur are from the SF>VI>NonOrthodox streams of Judaism--and therefore use the Sephardic SF>VI>prouncation of the Hebrew prayers. SF>VI>I have been reading on Tor-ch (The semi official Conservative Jewish e SF>VI>mail list) that the Conservative movement is currently revising "Siddur SF>VI>Sim Shalom". SF>VI>It will be interesting to see if the new version of the Conservative SF>VI>siddur is transliterated and if it uses the linear/transliterated SF>VI>format which is so useful to those of us who are struggling to learn SF>VI>Hebrew. SF>VI>The current version of "Siddur Sim Shalom" is Hebrew on the right page, SF>VI>English translation on the left page with no transliteration at all. SF>VI>At BJ, btw, they have a booklet inserted in the rear of the siddur SF>VI>which contains the transliteration of the Hebrew prayers they normally SF>VI>say during the service. SF>VI>They don't skip very much at BJ, so BJ has transliterated almost the SF>VI>entire kabbalat shabbat service and all of the Saturday services SF>VI>through havadalah. (Saturday morning at BJ is VERY LONG. On the few SF>VI>occasions that I have gone to BJ on Saturday, the service began at 9:30 SF>VI>AM and the Torah service did not end until after 1 PM!!!!.) SF>My father learned his basic hebrew using transliteration as his SF>beginning. At that time I was the one who had to write out the prayers SF>for him, especially the Kaddish after his parents died. Well Kaddish is extremely hard. I make mistakes with it all the time! That's because it's in Aramic, not Hebrew! Date: Saturday, May 2, 1998 11:43am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 746198 To: Vida Re: The linear siddur (Reply to #746195, Reply to #746173, Reply to #746166, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You appear to be mixing up Ash/Seph pronunciation and Ash/Sep VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>prayer, which is what is refered to by labeling siddurim. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Not at all Steve. I looked at the siddur. It has the Ashkenzic VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>pronunciation of the words. Ie., "shabbos" rather than "shabbat VI>SF>VI>SF>What you are looking for may only exist in Israel. VI>SF>VI>Artscroll puts out a Sephardic siddur. I know it also has the VI>SF>VI>Sephardic order of the prayer but a linear/transliterated version of VI>SF>VI>THAT siddur would be quite useful to me. VI>SF>VI>BTW, I spoke to the owner of J. Levine and he agreed with me. The VI>SF>VI>store owner suggested to Artscroll that they publish a VI>SF>VI>linear/transliterated Sephardic siddur. He said that most of his VI>SF>VI>customers who have need for a transliterated siddur are from the VI>SF>VI>NonOrthodox streams of Judaism--and therefore use the Sephardic VI>SF>VI>prouncation of the Hebrew prayers. VI>SF>VI>I have been reading on Tor-ch (The semi official Conservative Jewish e VI>SF>VI>mail list) that the Conservative movement is currently revising "Siddu VI>SF>VI>Sim Shalom". VI>SF>VI>It will be interesting to see if the new version of the Conservative VI>SF>VI>siddur is transliterated and if it uses the linear/transliterated VI>SF>VI>format which is so useful to those of us who are struggling to learn VI>SF>VI>Hebrew. VI>SF>VI>The current version of "Siddur Sim Shalom" is Hebrew on the right page VI>SF>VI>English translation on the left page with no transliteration at all. VI>SF>VI>At BJ, btw, they have a booklet inserted in the rear of the siddur VI>SF>VI>which contains the transliteration of the Hebrew prayers they normally VI>SF>VI>say during the service. VI>SF>VI>They don't skip very much at BJ, so BJ has transliterated almost the VI>SF>VI>entire kabbalat shabbat service and all of the Saturday services VI>SF>VI>through havadalah. (Saturday morning at BJ is VERY LONG. On the few VI>SF>VI>occasions that I have gone to BJ on Saturday, the service began at 9:3 VI>SF>VI>AM and the Torah service did not end until after 1 PM!!!!.) VI>SF>My father learned his basic hebrew using transliteration as his VI>SF>beginning. At that time I was the one who had to write out the prayers VI>SF>for him, especially the Kaddish after his parents died. VI>Well Kaddish is extremely hard. I make mistakes with it all the time! VI>That's because it's in Aramic, not Hebrew! I find the two of equal difficulty. Date: Sunday, May 3, 1998 11:01am Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 746207 To: Vida Re: The linear siddur (Reply to #746167, Reply to #746147, Reply to #746107) (1 reply) VI>What I am talking about is the pronouncation. For example, "Tallis" VI>(askenaz") vs. "tallit" (sefard). "Shabbos" (askenaz) vs. "shabbat" VI>(sefard). VI>I understand that there is also a sefardic order of prayer which is VI>different from the askenaz order of prayer. VI>As I explained to Steve Flur, a linear/transliterated Sephardic siddur VI>which follows the sephardic order of prayer would be quite useful to VI>me. The askenaz version is not very useful since it is teaching me the VI>wrong pronouncation. Ahhh...now I understand what you mean. Date: Sunday, May 3, 1998 11:03am Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 746208 To: Vida Re: The linear siddur (Reply to #746195, Reply to #746173, Reply to #746166, R*) (1 reply) VI>Well Kaddish is extremely hard. I make mistakes with it all the time! VI>That's because it's in Aramic, not Hebrew! But it IS written using Hebrew letters :-) Date: Sunday, May 3, 1998 5:50pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746215 To: Steve Flur Re: The linear siddur (Reply to #746198, Reply to #746195, Reply to #746173, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You appear to be mixing up Ash/Seph pronunciation and Ash/ SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>prayer, which is what is refered to by labeling siddurim. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Not at all Steve. I looked at the siddur. It has the Ashken SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>pronunciation of the words. Ie., "shabbos" rather than "shab SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>What you are looking for may only exist in Israel. SF>VI>SF>VI>Artscroll puts out a Sephardic siddur. I know it also has the SF>VI>SF>VI>Sephardic order of the prayer but a linear/transliterated version o SF>VI>SF>VI>THAT siddur would be quite useful to me. SF>VI>SF>VI>BTW, I spoke to the owner of J. Levine and he agreed with me. The SF>VI>SF>VI>store owner suggested to Artscroll that they publish a SF>VI>SF>VI>linear/transliterated Sephardic siddur. He said that most of his SF>VI>SF>VI>customers who have need for a transliterated siddur are from the SF>VI>SF>VI>NonOrthodox streams of Judaism--and therefore use the Sephardic SF>VI>SF>VI>prouncation of the Hebrew prayers. SF>VI>SF>VI>I have been reading on Tor-ch (The semi official Conservative Jewis SF>VI>SF>VI>mail list) that the Conservative movement is currently revising "Si SF>VI>SF>VI>Sim Shalom". SF>VI>SF>VI>It will be interesting to see if the new version of the Conservativ SF>VI>SF>VI>siddur is transliterated and if it uses the linear/transliterated SF>VI>SF>VI>format which is so useful to those of us who are struggling to lear SF>VI>SF>VI>Hebrew. SF>VI>SF>VI>The current version of "Siddur Sim Shalom" is Hebrew on the right p SF>VI>SF>VI>English translation on the left page with no transliteration at all SF>VI>SF>VI>At BJ, btw, they have a booklet inserted in the rear of the siddur SF>VI>SF>VI>which contains the transliteration of the Hebrew prayers they norma SF>VI>SF>VI>say during the service. SF>VI>SF>VI>They don't skip very much at BJ, so BJ has transliterated almost th SF>VI>SF>VI>entire kabbalat shabbat service and all of the Saturday services SF>VI>SF>VI>through havadalah. (Saturday morning at BJ is VERY LONG. On the fe SF>VI>SF>VI>occasions that I have gone to BJ on Saturday, the service began at SF>VI>SF>VI>AM and the Torah service did not end until after 1 PM!!!!.) SF>VI>SF>My father learned his basic hebrew using transliteration as his SF>VI>SF>beginning. At that time I was the one who had to write out the prayers SF>VI>SF>for him, especially the Kaddish after his parents died. SF>VI>Well Kaddish is extremely hard. I make mistakes with it all the time! SF>VI>That's because it's in Aramic, not Hebrew! SF>I find the two of equal difficulty. For me, any prayer in Aramic is MUCH harder to pronouce correctly than a prayer in Hebrew. Date: Sunday, May 3, 1998 5:51pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746216 To: Kkid Re: The linear siddur (Reply to #746207, Reply to #746167, Reply to #746147, R*) KK>VI>What I am talking about is the pronouncation. For example, "Tallis" KK>VI>(askenaz") vs. "tallit" (sefard). "Shabbos" (askenaz) vs. "shabbat" KK>VI>(sefard). KK>VI>I understand that there is also a sefardic order of prayer which is KK>VI>different from the askenaz order of prayer. KK>VI>As I explained to Steve Flur, a linear/transliterated Sephardic siddur KK>VI>which follows the sephardic order of prayer would be quite useful to KK>VI>me. The askenaz version is not very useful since it is teaching me the KK>VI>wrong pronouncation. KK>Ahhh...now I understand what you mean. It's a question of trying to get the "right" pronouncation down. :) Date: Sunday, May 3, 1998 5:51pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746217 To: Kkid Re: The linear siddur (Reply to #746208, Reply to #746195, Reply to #746173, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>Well Kaddish is extremely hard. I make mistakes with it all the time! KK>VI>That's because it's in Aramic, not Hebrew! KK>But it IS written using Hebrew letters :-) Sure. But it still ties my tongue up, for what ever reason! Date: Monday, May 4, 1998 1:35pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 746225 To: Vida Re: The linear siddur (Reply to #746215, Reply to #746198, Reply to #746195, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You appear to be mixing up Ash/Seph pronunciation and A VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>prayer, which is what is refered to by labeling sidduri VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Not at all Steve. I looked at the siddur. It has the Ash VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>pronunciation of the words. Ie., "shabbos" rather than "s VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>What you are looking for may only exist in Israel. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Artscroll puts out a Sephardic siddur. I know it also has the VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Sephardic order of the prayer but a linear/transliterated versio VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>THAT siddur would be quite useful to me. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>BTW, I spoke to the owner of J. Levine and he agreed with me. T VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>store owner suggested to Artscroll that they publish a VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>linear/transliterated Sephardic siddur. He said that most of hi VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>customers who have need for a transliterated siddur are from the VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>NonOrthodox streams of Judaism--and therefore use the Sephardic VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prouncation of the Hebrew prayers. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I have been reading on Tor-ch (The semi official Conservative Je VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>mail list) that the Conservative movement is currently revising VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Sim Shalom". VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>It will be interesting to see if the new version of the Conserva VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>siddur is transliterated and if it uses the linear/transliterate VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>format which is so useful to those of us who are struggling to l VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Hebrew. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>The current version of "Siddur Sim Shalom" is Hebrew on the righ VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>English translation on the left page with no transliteration at VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>At BJ, btw, they have a booklet inserted in the rear of the sidd VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>which contains the transliteration of the Hebrew prayers they no VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>say during the service. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>They don't skip very much at BJ, so BJ has transliterated almost VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>entire kabbalat shabbat service and all of the Saturday services VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>through havadalah. (Saturday morning at BJ is VERY LONG. On the VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>occasions that I have gone to BJ on Saturday, the service began VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>AM and the Torah service did not end until after 1 PM!!!!.) VI>SF>VI>SF>My father learned his basic hebrew using transliteration as his VI>SF>VI>SF>beginning. At that time I was the one who had to write out the pray VI>SF>VI>SF>for him, especially the Kaddish after his parents died. VI>SF>VI>Well Kaddish is extremely hard. I make mistakes with it all the time! VI>SF>VI>That's because it's in Aramic, not Hebrew! VI>SF>I find the two of equal difficulty. VI>For me, any prayer in Aramic is MUCH harder to pronouce correctly than VI>a prayer in Hebrew. Why? Date: Monday, May 4, 1998 3:57pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 746229 To: Vida Re: The linear siddur (Reply to #746217, Reply to #746208, Reply to #746195, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>VI>Well Kaddish is extremely hard. I make mistakes with it all the time! VI>KK>VI>That's because it's in Aramic, not Hebrew! VI>KK>But it IS written using Hebrew letters :-) VI>Sure. But it still ties my tongue up, for what ever reason! The reason is simple. Your tongue is not used to making all those Aramaic shapes :-) Date: Tuesday, May 5, 1998 7:02am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746243 To: Steve Flur Re: The linear siddur (Reply to #746225, Reply to #746215, Reply to #746198, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You appear to be mixing up Ash/Seph pronunciation an SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>prayer, which is what is refered to by labeling sidd SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Not at all Steve. I looked at the siddur. It has the SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>pronunciation of the words. Ie., "shabbos" rather than SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>What you are looking for may only exist in Israel. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Artscroll puts out a Sephardic siddur. I know it also has th SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Sephardic order of the prayer but a linear/transliterated ver SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>THAT siddur would be quite useful to me. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>BTW, I spoke to the owner of J. Levine and he agreed with me. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>store owner suggested to Artscroll that they publish a SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>linear/transliterated Sephardic siddur. He said that most of SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>customers who have need for a transliterated siddur are from SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>NonOrthodox streams of Judaism--and therefore use the Sephard SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prouncation of the Hebrew prayers. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I have been reading on Tor-ch (The semi official Conservative SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>mail list) that the Conservative movement is currently revisi SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Sim Shalom". SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>It will be interesting to see if the new version of the Conse SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>siddur is transliterated and if it uses the linear/transliter SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>format which is so useful to those of us who are struggling t SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Hebrew. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>The current version of "Siddur Sim Shalom" is Hebrew on the r SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>English translation on the left page with no transliteration SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>At BJ, btw, they have a booklet inserted in the rear of the s SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>which contains the transliteration of the Hebrew prayers they SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>say during the service. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>They don't skip very much at BJ, so BJ has transliterated alm SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>entire kabbalat shabbat service and all of the Saturday servi SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>through havadalah. (Saturday morning at BJ is VERY LONG. On SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>occasions that I have gone to BJ on Saturday, the service beg SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>AM and the Torah service did not end until after 1 PM!!!!.) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>My father learned his basic hebrew using transliteration as his SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>beginning. At that time I was the one who had to write out the p SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>for him, especially the Kaddish after his parents died. SF>VI>SF>VI>Well Kaddish is extremely hard. I make mistakes with it all the ti SF>VI>SF>VI>That's because it's in Aramic, not Hebrew! SF>VI>SF>I find the two of equal difficulty. SF>VI>For me, any prayer in Aramic is MUCH harder to pronouce correctly than SF>VI>a prayer in Hebrew. SF>Why? Good question. I wish I had the answer. It could be that many of the prayers in Hebrew just the same basic formula of "Blessed are You, King of the Universe..." etc. But Kaddish really IS very hard to pronouce. In my Hebrew 1 class we used a book called "Teach Yourself to Read Hebrew: Revised Edition" by Ethelyn Simon and Joseph Anderson. (Note this book is PURELY just to learn the aleph-beth and the Hebrew vowels. You learn NO vocubulary at all from using this book.) The last two pages of the last chapter in the book contains the Kaddish prayer in Hebrew. Here's what they say about it: "The Kaddish prayer is probably the most used prayer in all of Jewish life. It is said at the end of the various sections of the tranditional service, and as a mourning prayer at the end of a life. Read aloud until you can read it easily. The translation can be found on page 88. If you can master this prayer, there will be no Hebrew with vowels that will be too difficult for you.". Date: Tuesday, May 5, 1998 7:03am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746244 To: Kkid Re: The linear siddur (Reply to #746229, Reply to #746217, Reply to #746208, R*) KK>VI>KK>VI>Well Kaddish is extremely hard. I make mistakes with it all the ti KK>VI>KK>VI>That's because it's in Aramic, not Hebrew! KK>VI>KK>But it IS written using Hebrew letters :-) KK>VI>Sure. But it still ties my tongue up, for what ever reason! KK>The reason is simple. Your tongue is not used to making all those KK>Aramaic shapes :-) That could very well be true. But the Hebrew comes relatively easy for me. :) Date: Tuesday, May 5, 1998 12:54pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 746248 To: Vida Re: The linear siddur (Reply to #746243, Reply to #746225, Reply to #746215, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>You appear to be mixing up Ash/Seph pronunciation VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>prayer, which is what is refered to by labeling s VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Not at all Steve. I looked at the siddur. It has t VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>pronunciation of the words. Ie., "shabbos" rather t VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>What you are looking for may only exist in Israel. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Artscroll puts out a Sephardic siddur. I know it also has VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Sephardic order of the prayer but a linear/transliterated VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>THAT siddur would be quite useful to me. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>BTW, I spoke to the owner of J. Levine and he agreed with VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>store owner suggested to Artscroll that they publish a VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>linear/transliterated Sephardic siddur. He said that most VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>customers who have need for a transliterated siddur are fr VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>NonOrthodox streams of Judaism--and therefore use the Seph VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prouncation of the Hebrew prayers. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I have been reading on Tor-ch (The semi official Conservat VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>mail list) that the Conservative movement is currently rev VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Sim Shalom". VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>It will be interesting to see if the new version of the Co VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>siddur is transliterated and if it uses the linear/transli VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>format which is so useful to those of us who are strugglin VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Hebrew. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>The current version of "Siddur Sim Shalom" is Hebrew on th VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>English translation on the left page with no transliterati VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>At BJ, btw, they have a booklet inserted in the rear of th VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>which contains the transliteration of the Hebrew prayers t VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>say during the service. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>They don't skip very much at BJ, so BJ has transliterated VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>entire kabbalat shabbat service and all of the Saturday se VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>through havadalah. (Saturday morning at BJ is VERY LONG. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>occasions that I have gone to BJ on Saturday, the service VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>AM and the Torah service did not end until after 1 PM!!!!. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>My father learned his basic hebrew using transliteration as h VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>beginning. At that time I was the one who had to write out th VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>for him, especially the Kaddish after his parents died. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Well Kaddish is extremely hard. I make mistakes with it all the VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That's because it's in Aramic, not Hebrew! VI>SF>VI>SF>I find the two of equal difficulty. VI>SF>VI>For me, any prayer in Aramic is MUCH harder to pronouce correctly than VI>SF>VI>a prayer in Hebrew. VI>SF>Why? VI>Good question. I wish I had the answer. VI>It could be that many of the prayers in Hebrew just the same basic VI>formula of "Blessed are You, King of the Universe..." etc. VI>But Kaddish really IS very hard to pronouce. VI>In my Hebrew 1 class we used a book called "Teach Yourself to Read VI>Hebrew: Revised Edition" by Ethelyn Simon and Joseph Anderson. (Note VI>this book is PURELY just to learn the aleph-beth and the Hebrew vowels. VI> You learn NO vocubulary at all from using this book.) VI>The last two pages of the last chapter in the book contains the Kaddish VI>prayer in Hebrew. Here's what they say about it: VI> "The Kaddish prayer is probably the most used prayer in all of VI>Jewish life. It is said at the end of the various sections of the VI>tranditional service, and as a mourning prayer at the end of a life. VI>Read aloud until you can read it easily. The translation can be found VI>on page 88. VI> If you can master this prayer, there will be no Hebrew with vowels VI>that will be too difficult for you.". Since both languages use the same letters and vowels they should be learned at an equal rate. Date: Wednesday, May 6, 1998 6:11am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746251 To: Steve Flur Re: The linear siddur (Reply to #746248, Reply to #746243, Reply to #746225, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Well Kaddish is extremely hard. I make mistakes with it all SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That's because it's in Aramic, not Hebrew! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I find the two of equal difficulty. SF>VI>SF>VI>For me, any prayer in Aramic is MUCH harder to pronouce correctly t SF>VI>SF>VI>a prayer in Hebrew. SF>VI>SF>Why? SF>VI>Good question. I wish I had the answer. SF>VI>It could be that many of the prayers in Hebrew just the same basic SF>VI>formula of "Blessed are You, King of the Universe..." etc. SF>VI>But Kaddish really IS very hard to pronouce. SF>VI>In my Hebrew 1 class we used a book called "Teach Yourself to Read SF>VI>Hebrew: Revised Edition" by Ethelyn Simon and Joseph Anderson. (Note SF>VI>this book is PURELY just to learn the aleph-beth and the Hebrew vowels. SF>VI> You learn NO vocubulary at all from using this book.) SF>VI>The last two pages of the last chapter in the book contains the Kaddish SF>VI>prayer in Hebrew. Here's what they say about it: SF>VI> "The Kaddish prayer is probably the most used prayer in all of SF>VI>Jewish life. It is said at the end of the various sections of the SF>VI>tranditional service, and as a mourning prayer at the end of a life. SF>VI>Read aloud until you can read it easily. The translation can be found SF>VI>on page 88. SF>VI> If you can master this prayer, there will be no Hebrew with vowels SF>VI>that will be too difficult for you.". SF>Since both languages use the same letters and vowels they should be SF>learned at an equal rate. I think Sheldon had a valid point about about the Aramic words being more difficult for an English speaker to pronounce. Date: Wednesday, May 6, 1998 11:27am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 746253 To: Vida Re: The linear siddur (Reply to #746251, Reply to #746248, Reply to #746243, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Well Kaddish is extremely hard. I make mistakes with it a VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That's because it's in Aramic, not Hebrew! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I find the two of equal difficulty. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>For me, any prayer in Aramic is MUCH harder to pronouce correctl VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>a prayer in Hebrew. VI>SF>VI>SF>Why? VI>SF>VI>Good question. I wish I had the answer. VI>SF>VI>It could be that many of the prayers in Hebrew just the same basic VI>SF>VI>formula of "Blessed are You, King of the Universe..." etc. VI>SF>VI>But Kaddish really IS very hard to pronouce. VI>SF>VI>In my Hebrew 1 class we used a book called "Teach Yourself to Read VI>SF>VI>Hebrew: Revised Edition" by Ethelyn Simon and Joseph Anderson. (Note VI>SF>VI>this book is PURELY just to learn the aleph-beth and the Hebrew vowels VI>SF>VI> You learn NO vocubulary at all from using this book.) VI>SF>VI>The last two pages of the last chapter in the book contains the Kaddis VI>SF>VI>prayer in Hebrew. Here's what they say about it: VI>SF>VI> "The Kaddish prayer is probably the most used prayer in all of VI>SF>VI>Jewish life. It is said at the end of the various sections of the VI>SF>VI>tranditional service, and as a mourning prayer at the end of a life. VI>SF>VI>Read aloud until you can read it easily. The translation can be found VI>SF>VI>on page 88. VI>SF>VI> If you can master this prayer, there will be no Hebrew with vowel VI>SF>VI>that will be too difficult for you.". VI>SF>Since both languages use the same letters and vowels they should be VI>SF>learned at an equal rate. VI>I think Sheldon had a valid point about about the Aramic words being VI>more difficult for an English speaker to pronounce. I disagree, but that should not be surprising. Date: Thursday, May 7, 1998 7:01am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746261 To: Steve Flur Re: The linear siddur (Reply to #746253, Reply to #746251, Reply to #746248, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Well Kaddish is extremely hard. I make mistakes with i SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That's because it's in Aramic, not Hebrew! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I find the two of equal difficulty. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>For me, any prayer in Aramic is MUCH harder to pronouce corre SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>a prayer in Hebrew. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Why? SF>VI>SF>VI>Good question. I wish I had the answer. SF>VI>SF>VI>It could be that many of the prayers in Hebrew just the same basic SF>VI>SF>VI>formula of "Blessed are You, King of the Universe..." etc. SF>VI>SF>VI>But Kaddish really IS very hard to pronouce. SF>VI>SF>VI>In my Hebrew 1 class we used a book called "Teach Yourself to Read SF>VI>SF>VI>Hebrew: Revised Edition" by Ethelyn Simon and Joseph Anderson. (No SF>VI>SF>VI>this book is PURELY just to learn the aleph-beth and the Hebrew vow SF>VI>SF>VI> You learn NO vocubulary at all from using this book.) SF>VI>SF>VI>The last two pages of the last chapter in the book contains the Kad SF>VI>SF>VI>prayer in Hebrew. Here's what they say about it: SF>VI>SF>VI> "The Kaddish prayer is probably the most used prayer in all of SF>VI>SF>VI>Jewish life. It is said at the end of the various sections of the SF>VI>SF>VI>tranditional service, and as a mourning prayer at the end of a life SF>VI>SF>VI>Read aloud until you can read it easily. The translation can be fo SF>VI>SF>VI>on page 88. SF>VI>SF>VI> If you can master this prayer, there will be no Hebrew with vo SF>VI>SF>VI>that will be too difficult for you.". SF>VI>SF>Since both languages use the same letters and vowels they should be SF>VI>SF>learned at an equal rate. SF>VI>I think Sheldon had a valid point about about the Aramic words being SF>VI>more difficult for an English speaker to pronounce. SF>I disagree, but that should not be surprising. Well actually it IS kinda of surprising to me that you disagree with ME on this point. Especially since I am the one who has been struggling to learn the prayers of the siddur. Date: Thursday, May 7, 1998 10:55am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 746263 To: Vida Re: The linear siddur (Reply to #746261, Reply to #746253, Reply to #746251, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Well Kaddish is extremely hard. I make mistakes wit VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That's because it's in Aramic, not Hebrew! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I find the two of equal difficulty. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>For me, any prayer in Aramic is MUCH harder to pronouce co VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>a prayer in Hebrew. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Why? VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Good question. I wish I had the answer. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>It could be that many of the prayers in Hebrew just the same bas VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>formula of "Blessed are You, King of the Universe..." etc. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>But Kaddish really IS very hard to pronouce. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>In my Hebrew 1 class we used a book called "Teach Yourself to R VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Hebrew: Revised Edition" by Ethelyn Simon and Joseph Anderson. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>this book is PURELY just to learn the aleph-beth and the Hebrew VI>SF>VI>SF>VI> You learn NO vocubulary at all from using this book.) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>The last two pages of the last chapter in the book contains the VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayer in Hebrew. Here's what they say about it: VI>SF>VI>SF>VI> "The Kaddish prayer is probably the most used prayer in all VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Jewish life. It is said at the end of the various sections of t VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>tranditional service, and as a mourning prayer at the end of a l VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Read aloud until you can read it easily. The translation can be VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>on page 88. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI> If you can master this prayer, there will be no Hebrew with VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>that will be too difficult for you.". VI>SF>VI>SF>Since both languages use the same letters and vowels they should be VI>SF>VI>SF>learned at an equal rate. VI>SF>VI>I think Sheldon had a valid point about about the Aramic words being VI>SF>VI>more difficult for an English speaker to pronounce. VI>SF>I disagree, but that should not be surprising. VI>Well actually it IS kinda of surprising to me that you disagree with ME VI>on this point. Especially since I am the one who has been struggling VI>to learn the prayers of the siddur. Actually I was disagreeing with Khidd that Aramaic was harder than Hebrew, since they both use the same alphabet and same vowels, just slightly in different arraignments. Date: Friday, May 8, 1998 7:14am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746265 To: Steve Flur Re: The linear siddur (Reply to #746263, Reply to #746261, Reply to #746253, R*) (2 replies) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Well Kaddish is extremely hard. I make mistakes SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That's because it's in Aramic, not Hebrew! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I find the two of equal difficulty. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>For me, any prayer in Aramic is MUCH harder to pronouce SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>a prayer in Hebrew. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Why? SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Good question. I wish I had the answer. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>It could be that many of the prayers in Hebrew just the same SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>formula of "Blessed are You, King of the Universe..." etc. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>But Kaddish really IS very hard to pronouce. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>In my Hebrew 1 class we used a book called "Teach Yourself t SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Hebrew: Revised Edition" by Ethelyn Simon and Joseph Anderson SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>this book is PURELY just to learn the aleph-beth and the Hebr SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI> You learn NO vocubulary at all from using this book.) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>The last two pages of the last chapter in the book contains t SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayer in Hebrew. Here's what they say about it: SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI> "The Kaddish prayer is probably the most used prayer in SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Jewish life. It is said at the end of the various sections o SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>tranditional service, and as a mourning prayer at the end of SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Read aloud until you can read it easily. The translation can SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>on page 88. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI> If you can master this prayer, there will be no Hebrew w SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>that will be too difficult for you.". SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Since both languages use the same letters and vowels they should SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>learned at an equal rate. SF>VI>SF>VI>I think Sheldon had a valid point about about the Aramic words bein SF>VI>SF>VI>more difficult for an English speaker to pronounce. SF>VI>SF>I disagree, but that should not be surprising. SF>VI>Well actually it IS kinda of surprising to me that you disagree with ME SF>VI>on this point. Especially since I am the one who has been struggling SF>VI>to learn the prayers of the siddur. SF>Actually I was disagreeing with Khidd that Aramaic was harder than SF>Hebrew, since they both use the same alphabet and same vowels, just SF>slightly in different arraignments. I was the one who originally made that point. The fact that Hebrew uses the same alphabet and the same vowels as Aramaic is not controlling. For whatever reason I find that the COMBONATION of sounds in Aramic to be much harder to prononocue than the combonation of sounds in Hebrew. On the other hand, the difference can also be explained by the fact that I have built up some vocubulary in Hebrew . So I now know how to correctly pronounce many of the words in the siddur. I have learned much of my Hebrew vocubulary just by going to BJ, since once you start davening on a regular basis you start to pick up words without even trying! But I also have to tell you Steve that it feels bad to me that you are disagreeing with me and Kkid on this point. Are you disagreeing on this point just because Sheldon has made this point? To disagree with Sheldon just because it is Sheldon that is making the point is not very cool. Sometimes he can be correct you know. :) Date: Friday, May 8, 1998 1:16pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 746267 To: Vida Re: The linear siddur (Reply to #746265, Reply to #746263, Reply to #746261, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Well Kaddish is extremely hard. I make mistak VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That's because it's in Aramic, not Hebrew! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I find the two of equal difficulty. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>For me, any prayer in Aramic is MUCH harder to prono VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>a prayer in Hebrew. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Why? VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Good question. I wish I had the answer. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>It could be that many of the prayers in Hebrew just the sa VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>formula of "Blessed are You, King of the Universe..." etc. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>But Kaddish really IS very hard to pronouce. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>In my Hebrew 1 class we used a book called "Teach Yoursel VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Hebrew: Revised Edition" by Ethelyn Simon and Joseph Ander VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>this book is PURELY just to learn the aleph-beth and the H VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI> You learn NO vocubulary at all from using this book.) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>The last two pages of the last chapter in the book contain VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayer in Hebrew. Here's what they say about it: VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI> "The Kaddish prayer is probably the most used prayer VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Jewish life. It is said at the end of the various section VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>tranditional service, and as a mourning prayer at the end VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Read aloud until you can read it easily. The translation VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>on page 88. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI> If you can master this prayer, there will be no Hebre VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>that will be too difficult for you.". VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Since both languages use the same letters and vowels they sho VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>learned at an equal rate. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I think Sheldon had a valid point about about the Aramic words b VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>more difficult for an English speaker to pronounce. VI>SF>VI>SF>I disagree, but that should not be surprising. VI>SF>VI>Well actually it IS kinda of surprising to me that you disagree with M VI>SF>VI>on this point. Especially since I am the one who has been struggling VI>SF>VI>to learn the prayers of the siddur. VI>SF>Actually I was disagreeing with Khidd that Aramaic was harder than VI>SF>Hebrew, since they both use the same alphabet and same vowels, just VI>SF>slightly in different arraignments. VI>I was the one who originally made that point. The fact that Hebrew VI>uses the same alphabet and the same vowels as Aramaic is not VI>controlling. VI> For whatever reason I find that the COMBONATION of sounds in Aramic to VI>be much harder to prononocue than the combonation of sounds in Hebrew. VI>On the other hand, the difference can also be explained by the fact VI>that I have built up some vocubulary in Hebrew . So I now know how to VI>correctly pronounce many of the words in the siddur. I have learned VI>much of my Hebrew vocubulary just by going to BJ, since once you start VI>davening on a regular basis you start to pick up words without even VI>trying! VI>But I also have to tell you Steve that it feels bad to me that you are VI>disagreeing with me and Kkid on this point. Are you disagreeing on VI>this point just because Sheldon has made this point? To disagree with VI>Sheldon just because it is Sheldon that is making the point is not very VI>cool. Sometimes he can be correct you know. :) My experience was teaching my father the Kaddish, which is mostly Aramaic, before he had really learned Hebrew. Many of the words are practically identical, with only a change and/or addition of a vowel, especially in prayers. Date: Saturday, May 9, 1998 8:17am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746269 To: Steve Flur Re: The linear siddur (Reply to #746267, Reply to #746265, Reply to #746263, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Well Kaddish is extremely hard. I make mis SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That's because it's in Aramic, not Hebrew! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I find the two of equal difficulty. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>For me, any prayer in Aramic is MUCH harder to pr SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>a prayer in Hebrew. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Why? SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Good question. I wish I had the answer. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>It could be that many of the prayers in Hebrew just the SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>formula of "Blessed are You, King of the Universe..." e SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>But Kaddish really IS very hard to pronouce. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>In my Hebrew 1 class we used a book called "Teach Your SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Hebrew: Revised Edition" by Ethelyn Simon and Joseph An SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>this book is PURELY just to learn the aleph-beth and th SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI> You learn NO vocubulary at all from using this book.) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>The last two pages of the last chapter in the book cont SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayer in Hebrew. Here's what they say about it: SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI> "The Kaddish prayer is probably the most used pray SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Jewish life. It is said at the end of the various sect SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>tranditional service, and as a mourning prayer at the e SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Read aloud until you can read it easily. The translati SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>on page 88. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI> If you can master this prayer, there will be no He SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>that will be too difficult for you.". SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Since both languages use the same letters and vowels they SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>learned at an equal rate. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I think Sheldon had a valid point about about the Aramic word SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>more difficult for an English speaker to pronounce. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I disagree, but that should not be surprising. SF>VI>SF>VI>Well actually it IS kinda of surprising to me that you disagree wit SF>VI>SF>VI>on this point. Especially since I am the one who has been struggli SF>VI>SF>VI>to learn the prayers of the siddur. SF>VI>SF>Actually I was disagreeing with Khidd that Aramaic was harder than SF>VI>SF>Hebrew, since they both use the same alphabet and same vowels, just SF>VI>SF>slightly in different arraignments. SF>VI>I was the one who originally made that point. The fact that Hebrew SF>VI>uses the same alphabet and the same vowels as Aramaic is not SF>VI>controlling. SF>VI> For whatever reason I find that the COMBONATION of sounds in Aramic to SF>VI>be much harder to prononocue than the combonation of sounds in Hebrew. SF>VI>On the other hand, the difference can also be explained by the fact SF>VI>that I have built up some vocubulary in Hebrew . So I now know how to SF>VI>correctly pronounce many of the words in the siddur. I have learned SF>VI>much of my Hebrew vocubulary just by going to BJ, since once you start SF>VI>davening on a regular basis you start to pick up words without even SF>VI>trying! SF>VI>But I also have to tell you Steve that it feels bad to me that you are SF>VI>disagreeing with me and Kkid on this point. Are you disagreeing on SF>VI>this point just because Sheldon has made this point? To disagree with SF>VI>Sheldon just because it is Sheldon that is making the point is not very SF>VI>cool. Sometimes he can be correct you know. :) SF>My experience was teaching my father the Kaddish, which is mostly SF>Aramaic, before he had really learned Hebrew. Many of the words are SF>practically identical, with only a change and/or addition of a vowel, SF>especially in prayers. The words in the Kaddish are pratically identical to the words in the Kaddish Shalem and Hatzi Kaddish. And these prayers are all in Aramic, no? These are the prayers that give me such a hard time. On the other hand, I find all the brakhot to be relatively easy, as well as Mezmor sher l'yom Shabbat and ,of course, L'kha dodi. To let me crow a little, I actually UNDERSTAND all of (more or less) vesmru venai Yesrael. :) Date: Monday, May 11, 1998 10:42am Forum: Theology From: Editor Msg#: 746286 To: ** ALL ** Re: Yarmulkes (1 reply) Was it here that we had a discussion about non-Jews wearing yarmulkes in a sanctuary? It started with a picture of Clinton and Dinkens wearing yarmulkes during some kind of ceremony. If so, someone, (Kkid) felt it was wrong. I'd love to hear some references on the matter. Personally, I think allowing either of those two in a sanctuary is wrong enough, but that's another discussion. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Monday, May 11, 1998 11:41am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 746288 To: Vida Re: The linear siddur (Reply to #746269, Reply to #746267, Reply to #746265, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Well Kaddish is extremely hard. I make VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That's because it's in Aramic, not Hebre VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I find the two of equal difficulty. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>For me, any prayer in Aramic is MUCH harder to VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>a prayer in Hebrew. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Why? VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Good question. I wish I had the answer. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>It could be that many of the prayers in Hebrew just VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>formula of "Blessed are You, King of the Universe... VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>But Kaddish really IS very hard to pronouce. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>In my Hebrew 1 class we used a book called "Teach Y VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Hebrew: Revised Edition" by Ethelyn Simon and Joseph VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>this book is PURELY just to learn the aleph-beth and VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI> You learn NO vocubulary at all from using this book VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>The last two pages of the last chapter in the book c VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>prayer in Hebrew. Here's what they say about it: VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI> "The Kaddish prayer is probably the most used p VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Jewish life. It is said at the end of the various s VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>tranditional service, and as a mourning prayer at th VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Read aloud until you can read it easily. The transl VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>on page 88. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI> If you can master this prayer, there will be no VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>that will be too difficult for you.". VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Since both languages use the same letters and vowels th VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>learned at an equal rate. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I think Sheldon had a valid point about about the Aramic w VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>more difficult for an English speaker to pronounce. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I disagree, but that should not be surprising. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Well actually it IS kinda of surprising to me that you disagree VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>on this point. Especially since I am the one who has been strug VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>to learn the prayers of the siddur. VI>SF>VI>SF>Actually I was disagreeing with Khidd that Aramaic was harder than VI>SF>VI>SF>Hebrew, since they both use the same alphabet and same vowels, just VI>SF>VI>SF>slightly in different arraignments. VI>SF>VI>I was the one who originally made that point. The fact that Hebrew VI>SF>VI>uses the same alphabet and the same vowels as Aramaic is not VI>SF>VI>controlling. VI>SF>VI> For whatever reason I find that the COMBONATION of sounds in Aramic t VI>SF>VI>be much harder to prononocue than the combonation of sounds in Hebrew. VI>SF>VI>On the other hand, the difference can also be explained by the fact VI>SF>VI>that I have built up some vocubulary in Hebrew . So I now know how t VI>SF>VI>correctly pronounce many of the words in the siddur. I have learned VI>SF>VI>much of my Hebrew vocubulary just by going to BJ, since once you start VI>SF>VI>davening on a regular basis you start to pick up words without even VI>SF>VI>trying! VI>SF>VI>But I also have to tell you Steve that it feels bad to me that you are VI>SF>VI>disagreeing with me and Kkid on this point. Are you disagreeing on VI>SF>VI>this point just because Sheldon has made this point? To disagree with VI>SF>VI>Sheldon just because it is Sheldon that is making the point is not ver VI>SF>VI>cool. Sometimes he can be correct you know. :) VI>SF>My experience was teaching my father the Kaddish, which is mostly VI>SF>Aramaic, before he had really learned Hebrew. Many of the words are VI>SF>practically identical, with only a change and/or addition of a vowel, VI>SF>especially in prayers. VI>The words in the Kaddish are pratically identical to the words in the VI>Kaddish Shalem and Hatzi Kaddish. And these prayers are all in Aramic, VI>no? These are the prayers that give me such a hard time. VI>On the other hand, I find all the brakhot to be relatively easy, as VI>well as Mezmor sher l'yom Shabbat and ,of course, L'kha dodi. VI>To let me crow a little, I actually UNDERSTAND all of (more or less) VI>vesmru venai Yesrael. :) So much progress in so little time! CONGRADULATIONS!!!!!! Date: Monday, May 11, 1998 8:40pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 746291 To: Vida Re: The linear siddur (Reply to #746265, Reply to #746263, Reply to #746261, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>Well actually it IS kinda of surprising to me that you disagree with M VI>SF>VI>on this point. Especially since I am the one who has been struggling VI>SF>VI>to learn the prayers of the siddur. VI>SF>Actually I was disagreeing with Khidd that Aramaic was harder than VI>SF>Hebrew, since they both use the same alphabet and same vowels, just VI>SF>slightly in different arraignments. VI>I was the one who originally made that point. The fact that Hebrew VI>uses the same alphabet and the same vowels as Aramaic is not VI>controlling. VI> For whatever reason I find that the COMBONATION of sounds in Aramic to VI>be much harder to prononocue than the combonation of sounds in Hebrew. VI>On the other hand, the difference can also be explained by the fact VI>that I have built up some vocubulary in Hebrew . So I now know how to VI>correctly pronounce many of the words in the siddur. I have learned VI>much of my Hebrew vocubulary just by going to BJ, since once you start VI>davening on a regular basis you start to pick up words without even VI>trying! VI>But I also have to tell you Steve that it feels bad to me that you are [B>disagreeing with me and Kkid on this point. Are you disagreeing on VI>this point just because Sheldon has made this point? To disagree with VI>Sheldon just because it is Sheldon that is making the point is not very VI>cool. Sometimes he can be correct you know. :) You are correct in your analysis of why you find Aramaic more difficult than Hebrew. It really makes no difference that the letters and vowels are the same as Hebrew. Imagine reading a graduate level medical text or or text that you are not familiar with. You would find the reading difficult eventhough you would probably end up pronouncing the words properly. My father told me on numerous occasions that in Europe as reading practice they would have the kids read various Aramaic texts witht the understanding that once they master them, reading Hebrew would be simple. Date: Tuesday, May 12, 1998 6:32am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746292 To: Editor Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746286) (2 replies) ED>Was it here that we had a discussion about non-Jews wearing yarmulkes in a ED>sanctuary? It started with a picture of Clinton and Dinkens wearing ED>yarmulkes during some kind of ceremony. ED>If so, someone, (Kkid) felt it was wrong. I'd love to hear some references ED>on the matter. My feeling is that when a non Jewish male enters a synagogue that he shows respect for our religion by wearing a yarmulke. Every time Bob has gone with me to BJ he has worn one. One the other hand, only a Jew should don a tallit or lay teffilin. I'm afraid I have no references on this matter. But I am sure Steve Flur or Kkid might! :) Date: Tuesday, May 12, 1998 6:36am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746293 To: Steve Flur Re: The linear siddur (Reply to #746288, Reply to #746269, Reply to #746267, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI> For whatever reason I find that the COMBONATION of sounds in Arami SF>VI>SF>VI>be much harder to prononocue than the combonation of sounds in Hebr SF>VI>The words in the Kaddish are pratically identical to the words in the SF>VI>Kaddish Shalem and Hatzi Kaddish. And these prayers are all in Aramic, SF>VI>no? These are the prayers that give me such a hard time. SF>VI>On the other hand, I find all the brakhot to be relatively easy, as SF>VI>well as Mezmor sher l'yom Shabbat and ,of course, L'kha dodi. SF>VI>To let me crow a little, I actually UNDERSTAND all of (more or less) SF>VI>vesmru venai Yesrael. :) SF>So much progress in so little time! SF>CONGRADULATIONS!!!!!! Thanks for the congratulations, but I feel like they are not deserved. Actually, I am angry at myself because I have not pursuing my Hebrew language study. I haven't taken a class in at least a year. And meanwhile, I have been stuck at the same level of nonunderstanding for over a year! Date: Tuesday, May 12, 1998 6:39am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746294 To: Kkid Re: The linear siddur (Reply to #746291, Reply to #746265, Reply to #746263, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>SF>VI>Well actually it IS kinda of surprising to me that you disagree wit KK>VI>SF>VI>on this point. Especially since I am the one who has been struggli KK>VI>SF>VI>to learn the prayers of the siddur. KK>VI>SF>Actually I was disagreeing with Khidd that Aramaic was harder than KK>VI>SF>Hebrew, since they both use the same alphabet and same vowels, just KK>VI>SF>slightly in different arraignments. KK>VI>I was the one who originally made that point. The fact that Hebrew KK>VI>uses the same alphabet and the same vowels as Aramaic is not KK>VI>controlling. KK>VI> For whatever reason I find that the COMBONATION of sounds in Aramic to KK>VI>be much harder to prononocue than the combonation of sounds in Hebrew. KK>VI>On the other hand, the difference can also be explained by the fact KK>VI>that I have built up some vocubulary in Hebrew . So I now know how to KK>VI>correctly pronounce many of the words in the siddur. I have learned KK>VI>much of my Hebrew vocubulary just by going to BJ, since once you start KK>VI>davening on a regular basis you start to pick up words without even KK>VI>trying! KK>VI>But I also have to tell you Steve that it feels bad to me that you are KK>[B>disagreeing with me and Kkid on this point. Are you disagreeing on KK>VI>this point just because Sheldon has made this point? To disagree with KK>VI>Sheldon just because it is Sheldon that is making the point is not very KK>VI>cool. Sometimes he can be correct you know. :) KK>You are correct in your analysis of why you find Aramaic more difficult KK>than Hebrew. It really makes no difference that the letters and vowels KK>are the same as Hebrew. Imagine reading a graduate level medical text or KK>or text that you are not familiar with. KK> You would find the reading difficult eventhough KK>you would probably end up pronouncing the words properly. My father told KK>me on numerous occasions that in Europe as reading practice they would KK>have the kids read various Aramaic texts witht the understanding that KK>once they master them, reading Hebrew would be simple. Was this study practice your father described just reading the Aramic phonetically? Or was it reading for understanding? They really are two different things. As I pointed out to Steve, the Hebrew prayers are starting to become easier for me because I can understand some of the Hebrew in those prayers! Date: Tuesday, May 12, 1998 10:08am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 746295 To: Vida Re: The linear siddur (Reply to #746293, Reply to #746288, Reply to #746269, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI> For whatever reason I find that the COMBONATION of sounds in Ar VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>be much harder to prononocue than the combonation of sounds in H VI>SF>VI>The words in the Kaddish are pratically identical to the words in the VI>SF>VI>Kaddish Shalem and Hatzi Kaddish. And these prayers are all in Aramic VI>SF>VI>no? These are the prayers that give me such a hard time. VI>SF>VI>On the other hand, I find all the brakhot to be relatively easy, as VI>SF>VI>well as Mezmor sher l'yom Shabbat and ,of course, L'kha dodi. VI>SF>VI>To let me crow a little, I actually UNDERSTAND all of (more or less) VI>SF>VI>vesmru venai Yesrael. :) VI>SF>So much progress in so little time! VI>SF>CONGRADULATIONS!!!!!! VI>Thanks for the congratulations, but I feel like they are not deserved. VI>Actually, I am angry at myself because I have not pursuing my Hebrew VI>language study. I haven't taken a class in at least a year. And VI>meanwhile, I have been stuck at the same level of nonunderstanding for VI>over a year! A year ago you could not have posted what you did. Date: Tuesday, May 12, 1998 1:11pm Forum: Theology From: Editor Msg#: 746299 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746292, Reply to #746286) (1 reply) V >ED>Was it here that we had a discussion about non-Jews wearing yarmulk V >ED>sanctuary? It started with a picture of Clinton and Dinkens wearing V >ED>yarmulkes during some kind of ceremony. V > V >ED>If so, someone, (Kkid) felt it was wrong. I'd love to hear some ref V >ED>on the matter. V > V >My feeling is that when a non Jewish male enters a synagogue that he V >shows respect for our religion by wearing a yarmulke. Every time Bob V >has gone with me to BJ he has worn one. V > V >One the other hand, only a Jew should don a tallit or lay teffilin. V > V >I'm afraid I have no references on this matter. But I am sure Steve V >Flur or Kkid might! :) I'm hoping to find some. Last Saturday, someone thought they spotted a man in the "bar mitzvah" side of the shul without a yarmulke. He called over someone else and pointed it out. The person he called over said "maybe he isn't Jewish", and the first person said "it doesn't matter". The thing is that both of these people were on the ritual committee, one was a former shul president, the other the Principal of a Solomon Schecter school. Made for an interesting argument. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Tuesday, May 12, 1998 6:58pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 746300 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746292, Reply to #746286) (1 reply) VI>ED>Was it here that we had a discussion about non-Jews wearing yarmulkes in VI>ED>sanctuary? It started with a picture of Clinton and Dinkens wearing VI>ED>yarmulkes during some kind of ceremony. VI>ED>If so, someone, (Kkid) felt it was wrong. I'd love to hear some reference VI>ED>on the matter. VI>My feeling is that when a non Jewish male enters a synagogue that he VI>shows respect for our religion by wearing a yarmulke. Every time Bob VI>has gone with me to BJ he has worn one. VI>One the other hand, only a Jew should don a tallit or lay teffilin. I was the one who felt that a non Jew should not wear a yarmulka when in Shul. I have no references and have not seen anyone come out and agree with my opinion. Yet when I mention it to learned individuals they do say they have no idea why no one has discussed my point. There is something called Mar-ath ay-in ( I put the hyphens in to make the two words easier to pronounce). A Jew is not supposed to do something that can be misconstrued by someone else in a wrong manner. There is also a law of Lo See-tayn Mich-shol which means you are not supposed to do anything that will cause someone to sin. I will not go through a whole composition now, but here is what happened in my shul on Shabbos. A non Jew who was sitting there with a Yarmulka was doing something that a Jew is not permitted to do. Another individual started yelling at him not realizing that this man was not Jewish. The same thing happened on Yom Kippur. (The non Jew was there to help out a handicapped individual). One man yelled, but other may have thought that what the non Jew was doing was permissible. That is one point for my opinion. Another is quite simply that there is the idea that Jews are supposed to be separate and one way we show that is by our clothing. Why should we sanction having a non Jew being thought of as a Jew. Sorry if this last one comes off as being racist or something. Date: Tuesday, May 12, 1998 6:59pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 746301 To: Vida Re: The linear siddur (Reply to #746294, Reply to #746291, Reply to #746265, R*) (1 reply) VI>Was this study practice your father described just reading the Aramic VI>phonetically? Or was it reading for understanding? They really are VI>two different things. As I pointed out to Steve, the Hebrew prayers VI>are starting to become easier for me because I can understand some of VI>the Hebrew in those prayers! Simply a matter of phonetics. Date: Wednesday, May 13, 1998 7:46am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746304 To: Steve Flur Re: The linear siddur (Reply to #746295, Reply to #746293, Reply to #746288, R*) (1 reply) S SF>VI>SF>VI>The words in the Kaddish are pratically identical to the words in t SF>VI>Thanks for the congratulations, but I feel like they are not deserved. SF>VI>Actually, I am angry at myself because I have not pursuing my Hebrew SF>VI>language study. I haven't taken a class in at least a year. And SF>VI>meanwhile, I have been stuck at the same level of nonunderstanding for SF>VI>over a year! SF>A year ago you could not have posted what you did. Two or three years ago I could not have posted what I did. But for the past year or year and a half I have stalled out in my Jewish studies in general and with my Hebrew studies specifically. Of course, there is only one person to blame: me. The problem is finding the time and a good teacher. What I really ought to do is call Hebrew Union College and see if they can hook me up with a tutor. This way I can help support a rabbinical student and learn some Hebrew at the same time. I figure that HUC is a good place for me to turn because the school is located in the Village, as opposed to JTS (The Jewish Theological Seminary) which is located on the upper West Side near Columbia. I can get myself over to HUC a lot easier than JTS. Date: Wednesday, May 13, 1998 7:49am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746305 To: Editor Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746299, Reply to #746292, Reply to #746286) (1 reply) ED>V >ED>Was it here that we had a discussion about non-Jews wearing yarmulk ED>V >ED>sanctuary? It started with a picture of Clinton and Dinkens wearing ED>V >ED>yarmulkes during some kind of ceremony. ED>V > ED>V >ED>If so, someone, (Kkid) felt it was wrong. I'd love to hear some ref ED>V >ED>on the matter. ED>V > ED>V >My feeling is that when a non Jewish male enters a synagogue that he ED>V >shows respect for our religion by wearing a yarmulke. Every time Bob ED>V >has gone with me to BJ he has worn one. ED>V > ED>V >One the other hand, only a Jew should don a tallit or lay teffilin. ED>V > ED>V >I'm afraid I have no references on this matter. But I am sure Steve ED>V >Flur or Kkid might! :) ED>I'm hoping to find some. Last Saturday, someone thought they spotted a man ED>in the "bar mitzvah" side of the shul without a yarmulke. He called over ED>someone else and pointed it out. The person he called over said "maybe he ED>isn't Jewish", and the first person said "it doesn't matter". ED>The thing is that both of these people were on the ritual committee, one ED>was a former shul president, the other the Principal of a Solomon Schecter ED>school. Made for an interesting argument. I have occasionally seen men at BJ not wearing yarmulkes. It always bugs me when I see this. But on the other hand, if you go to BJ on Saturday mornings you will see that more than half of the females daveen with a talit. I myself do so for morning services and for Yom Kippur evening. Date: Wednesday, May 13, 1998 8:08am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746306 To: Kkid Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746300, Reply to #746292, Reply to #746286) (1 reply) KK>VI>My feeling is that when a non Jewish male enters a synagogue that he KK>VI>shows respect for our religion by wearing a yarmulke. Every time Bob KK>VI>has gone with me to BJ he has worn one. KK>VI>One the other hand, only a Jew should don a tallit or lay teffilin. KK>I was the one who felt that a non Jew should not wear a yarmulka when in KK>Shul. I have no references and have not seen anyone come out and agree KK>with my opinion. Yet when I mention it to learned individuals they do KK>say they have no idea why no one has discussed my point. KK>There is something called Mar-ath ay-in ( I put the hyphens in to make KK>the two words easier to pronounce). A Jew is not supposed to do KK>something that can be misconstrued by someone else in a wrong manner. KK>There is also a law of Lo See-tayn Mich-shol which means you are not KK>supposed to do anything that will cause someone to sin. KK>I will not go through a whole composition now, but here is what happened KK>in my shul on Shabbos. A non Jew who was sitting there with a Yarmulka KK>was doing something that a Jew is not permitted to do. Another KK>individual started yelling at him not realizing that this man was not KK>Jewish. The same thing happened on Yom Kippur. (The non Jew was there to KK>help out a handicapped individual). One man yelled, but other may have KK>thought that what the non Jew was doing was permissible. That is one KK>point for my opinion. Another is quite simply that there is the idea KK>that Jews are supposed to be separate and one way we show that is by our KK>clothing. Why should we sanction having a non Jew being thought of as a KK>Jew. Sorry if this last one comes off as being racist or something. It does not come across as racist at all. I believe that it IS improper for a nonJew to wear a tallit or to lay teffilin--for just the same reason that you mentioned. In other words, I believe that if a nonJew would do so he or she would fraudlently hold him/herself out as a Jew. On the other hand, I think it would be rude for a nonJewish male NOT to wear a yarmulke while he was inside a synagogue. I don't know what is the difference, if there is any between wearing a yarmulke and wearing a tallit/donning teffilin. It could very well be that wearing a yarmulke is merely a tradition and that there is no biblical mandate that requires Jewish men to wear yarmulkes. On the other hand, wearing a tallit and donning teffilin ARE mitzvot. What this distinction means to me is that since only Jews are "commanded" to obey the mitzvot it would be a misrepresentation for a nonJew to don the distincitive "signs" of tefflin and tallit. Along the same line I was reading a disccusion on the Tor-ch list as to whether Jewish women who wish to wear tallit or don tefflin should say the traditional brakhot before undertaking these acts. The discussion had to do with the fact that the traditional brakhot contain thanks for being "commanded" to undertake these mitzvot and Jewish women are, of course, exempt from these commandments. From this discussion the consensus, from a Conservative Jewish perseptive of course, was that once a Jewish woman voluntarily takes on the mitzvot of wearing a tallit, for example, that she was obligated to say the traditional brakhot. The Conservative movement teaches that the fact that a Jewish woman may be exempt from certain mitzvot does not mean that she is prohibited from following those mitzvot. At the same time, the Conservative movement does not want women to take on a mitzvot lightly. Once a woman voluntarily takes on a mitzvot she is commanded in the same sense as a man is commanded, and is subject to the same penalities as a man would be for violating that commandment. So to underscore the seriousness of taking on a mitzvot the consensus on the list was that the traditional brakhot SHOULD be recited. Date: Wednesday, May 13, 1998 8:09am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746307 To: Kkid Re: The linear siddur (Reply to #746301, Reply to #746294, Reply to #746291, R*) KK>VI>Was this study practice your father described just reading the Aramic KK>VI>phonetically? Or was it reading for understanding? They really are KK>VI>two different things. As I pointed out to Steve, the Hebrew prayers KK>VI>are starting to become easier for me because I can understand some of KK>VI>the Hebrew in those prayers! KK>Simply a matter of phonetics. So I guess I was right. Aramic really does tie up the tongue. :) Date: Wednesday, May 13, 1998 9:25am Forum: Theology From: Editor Msg#: 746309 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746305, Reply to #746299, Reply to #746292, R*) (2 replies) V >ED>The thing is that both of these people were on the ritual committee V >ED>was a former shul president, the other the Principal of a Solomon S V >ED>school. Made for an interesting argument. V > V >I have occasionally seen men at BJ not wearing yarmulkes. It always V >bugs me when I see this. V > V >But on the other hand, if you go to BJ on Saturday mornings you will V >see that more than half of the females daveen with a talit. I myself V >do so for morning services and for Yom Kippur evening. No... Jewish men not wearing head coverings is pretty clear cut. Its the flip side I'm talking about. Non-Jewish men wearing yarmulkes. Like I said, about 5-6 years ago I saw this picture of Clinton and Dinkins wearing them and it got me to wondering. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Wednesday, May 13, 1998 12:06pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 746312 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746306, Reply to #746300, Reply to #746292, R*) (1 reply) VI>It does not come across as racist at all. VI>I believe that it IS improper for a nonJew to wear a tallit or to lay VI>teffilin--for just the same reason that you mentioned. In other words, VI>I believe that if a nonJew would do so he or she would fraudlently hold VI>him/herself out as a Jew. On the other hand, I think it would be rude VI>for a nonJewish male NOT to wear a yarmulke while he was inside a VI>synagogue. Would it be rude for a Jewish individual to wear a Yarmulke in a church? VI>I don't know what is the difference, if there is any between wearing a VI>yarmulke and wearing a tallit/donning teffilin. It could very well be VI>that wearing a yarmulke is merely a tradition and that there is no VI>biblical mandate that requires Jewish men to wear yarmulkes. On the VI>other hand, wearing a tallit and donning teffilin ARE mitzvot. What VI>this distinction means to me is that since only Jews are "commanded" to VI>obey the mitzvot it would be a misrepresentation for a nonJew to don VI>the distincitive "signs" of tefflin and tallit. The yarmulke did start out as a tradition. For Orthodox Jews it is now considered more or less a law. Sephardic Jews do not always wear one, , as it was not their custom. Many very religious ones do always wear one. All religious sephardic Jews will wear one during prayer and during meals as far as I know. y VI> Conservative movement teaches that the fact VI>that a Jewish woman may be exempt from certain mitzvot does not mean VI>that she is prohibited from following those mitzvot. Same is true for the Orthodox movement. Date: Wednesday, May 13, 1998 12:07pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 746313 To: Editor Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746309, Reply to #746305, Reply to #746299, R*) (1 reply) ED>No... Jewish men not wearing head coverings is pretty clear cut. Its the ED>flip side I'm talking about. Non-Jewish men wearing yarmulkes. Like I said, ED>about 5-6 years ago I saw this picture of Clinton and Dinkins wearing them ED>and it got me to wondering. It's not pretty clear cut. As I mentioned in a message, many Sephardic Jews do not always wear a head covering. Date: Wednesday, May 13, 1998 1:37pm Forum: Theology From: Editor Msg#: 746315 To: Kkid Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746313, Reply to #746309, Reply to #746305, R*) (1 reply) K >ED>No... Jewish men not wearing head coverings is pretty clear cut. It K >ED>flip side I'm talking about. Non-Jewish men wearing yarmulkes. Like K >ED>about 5-6 years ago I saw this picture of Clinton and Dinkins weari K >ED>and it got me to wondering. K > K >It's not pretty clear cut. As I mentioned in a message, many Sephardic K >Jews do not always wear a head covering. K > But what about the non-Jews wearing a yarmulke. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Thursday, May 14, 1998 9:14am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 746318 To: Vida Re: The linear siddur (Reply to #746304, Reply to #746295, Reply to #746293, R*) (1 reply) VI>S VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>The words in the Kaddish are pratically identical to the words i VI>SF>VI>Thanks for the congratulations, but I feel like they are not deserved. VI>SF>VI>Actually, I am angry at myself because I have not pursuing my Hebrew VI>SF>VI>language study. I haven't taken a class in at least a year. And VI>SF>VI>meanwhile, I have been stuck at the same level of nonunderstanding for VI>SF>VI>over a year! VI>SF>A year ago you could not have posted what you did. VI>Two or three years ago I could not have posted what I did. But for the VI>past year or year and a half I have stalled out in my Jewish studies in VI>general and with my Hebrew studies specifically. VI>Of course, there is only one person to blame: me. The problem is VI>finding the time and a good teacher. VI>What I really ought to do is call Hebrew Union College and see if they VI>can hook me up with a tutor. This way I can help support a rabbinical VI>student and learn some Hebrew at the same time. I figure that HUC is a VI>good place for me to turn because the school is located in the Village, VI>as opposed to JTS (The Jewish Theological Seminary) which is located on VI>the upper West Side near Columbia. I can get myself over to HUC a lot VI>easier than JTS. Sounds like an excellent plan. Date: Thursday, May 14, 1998 11:44am Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 746321 To: Editor Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746315, Reply to #746313, Reply to #746309, R*) (2 replies) ED>K >ED>No... Jewish men not wearing head coverings is pretty clear cut. It ED>K >ED>flip side I'm talking about. Non-Jewish men wearing yarmulkes. Like ED>K >ED>about 5-6 years ago I saw this picture of Clinton and Dinkins weari ED>K >ED>and it got me to wondering. ED>K > ED>K >It's not pretty clear cut. As I mentioned in a message, many Sephardic ED>K >Jews do not always wear a head covering. ED>K > ED>But what about the non-Jews wearing a yarmulke. Well, the pope wears one :-) (You did see my response to your question...I hope) Date: Friday, May 15, 1998 6:24am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746332 To: Editor Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746309, Reply to #746305, Reply to #746299, R*) ED>V >ED>The thing is that both of these people were on the ritual committee ED>V >ED>was a former shul president, the other the Principal of a Solomon S ED>V >ED>school. Made for an interesting argument. ED>V > ED>V >I have occasionally seen men at BJ not wearing yarmulkes. It always ED>V >bugs me when I see this. ED>V > ED>V >But on the other hand, if you go to BJ on Saturday mornings you will ED>V >see that more than half of the females daveen with a talit. I myself ED>V >do so for morning services and for Yom Kippur evening. ED>No... Jewish men not wearing head coverings is pretty clear cut. Its the ED>flip side I'm talking about. Non-Jewish men wearing yarmulkes. Like I said, ED>about 5-6 years ago I saw this picture of Clinton and Dinkins wearing them ED>and it got me to wondering. In my opinion ALL men should wear a yarmulke inside a synagogue. But only Jews should wear a tallit or teffilin. Date: Friday, May 15, 1998 6:47am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746333 To: Kkid Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746312, Reply to #746306, Reply to #746300, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>It does not come across as racist at all. KK>VI>I believe that it IS improper for a nonJew to wear a tallit or to lay KK>VI>teffilin--for just the same reason that you mentioned. In other words, KK>VI>I believe that if a nonJew would do so he or she would fraudlently hold KK>VI>him/herself out as a Jew. On the other hand, I think it would be rude KK>VI>for a nonJewish male NOT to wear a yarmulke while he was inside a KK>VI>synagogue. KK>Would it be rude for a Jewish individual to wear a Yarmulke in a church? It depends. As a general rule, when one goes inside a house of worship one should honor the custom that is practiced in that house of worship. This is why I say that a nonJewish male should wear a yarmulke inside a synagogue. However, an exception to this rule is where to do so would violate your own religious principles. To give a concrete example, when I go to church with Bob I do not kneel in the portions of the mass where the congregration kneels. Instead I remain seated in my seat. The reason I do this is that for me to kneel in a Catholic mass would be to violate my religious principles. Every prayer that I can recall from the Catholic mass makes some reference to Jesus and Mary. So for me to kneel would mean to mean that I recognize Jesus as the messiah and Mary as the mother of god. And as a Jew, I most definitely do NOT make any such recognition. So my answer to you is that a "frum" Jew who normally wears a yarmulke every day should not take off his yarmulke if he should enter a church. However, a "non frum" Jew who normally does not wear a yarmulke every day should not don a yarmulke when he or she enters a church. To do so, is rude. It is making yourself stick out. Going back to my example of the kneeling, I don't remain standing if the congregration goes directly from standing to kneeling. I would sit down at that point. Because it is far less noticeable for me to be seated while every one else is kneeling than me to be standing while every one else is kneeling. But this is a theoritical discussion. I seem to recall you saying a while back that a "frum" Jew would never enter a church. So if my memory is correct, than my answer to you is: If a Jew is "nonfrum" enough to attend a church service than he should not put on a yarmulke when he does so! :) KK>VI>I don't know what is the difference, if there is any between wearing a KK>VI>yarmulke and wearing a tallit/donning teffilin. It could very well be KK>VI>that wearing a yarmulke is merely a tradition and that there is no KK>VI>biblical mandate that requires Jewish men to wear yarmulkes. On the KK>VI>other hand, wearing a tallit and donning teffilin ARE mitzvot. What KK>VI>this distinction means to me is that since only Jews are "commanded" to KK>VI>obey the mitzvot it would be a misrepresentation for a nonJew to don KK>VI>the distincitive "signs" of tefflin and tallit. KK>The yarmulke did start out as a tradition. For Orthodox Jews it is now KK>considered more or less a law. Sephardic Jews do not always wear one, KK> , as it was not their custom. Many very religious ones do always KK>wear one. All religious sephardic Jews will wear one during prayer and KK>during meals as far as I know. More or less law is NOT law. Either its law or it is not law. KK>VI> Conservative movement teaches that the fact KK>VI>that a Jewish woman may be exempt from certain mitzvot does not mean KK>VI>that she is prohibited from following those mitzvot. KK>Same is true for the Orthodox movement. Date: Friday, May 15, 1998 6:49am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746334 To: Steve Flur Re: The linear siddur (Reply to #746318, Reply to #746304, Reply to #746295, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>S SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>The words in the Kaddish are pratically identical to the word SF>VI>SF>VI>Thanks for the congratulations, but I feel like they are not deserv SF>VI>SF>VI>Actually, I am angry at myself because I have not pursuing my Hebre SF>VI>SF>VI>language study. I haven't taken a class in at least a year. And SF>VI>SF>VI>meanwhile, I have been stuck at the same level of nonunderstanding SF>VI>SF>VI>over a year! SF>VI>SF>A year ago you could not have posted what you did. SF>VI>Two or three years ago I could not have posted what I did. But for the SF>VI>past year or year and a half I have stalled out in my Jewish studies in SF>VI>general and with my Hebrew studies specifically. SF>VI>Of course, there is only one person to blame: me. The problem is SF>VI>finding the time and a good teacher. SF>VI>What I really ought to do is call Hebrew Union College and see if they SF>VI>can hook me up with a tutor. This way I can help support a rabbinical SF>VI>student and learn some Hebrew at the same time. I figure that HUC is a SF>VI>good place for me to turn because the school is located in the Village, SF>VI>as opposed to JTS (The Jewish Theological Seminary) which is located on SF>VI>the upper West Side near Columbia. I can get myself over to HUC a lot SF>VI>easier than JTS. SF>Sounds like an excellent plan. Now the eternal question is: Will I get off my posterior to do so? :) Date: Friday, May 15, 1998 6:51am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746335 To: Kkid Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746321, Reply to #746315, Reply to #746313, R*) (1 reply) KK>ED>K >ED>No... Jewish men not wearing head coverings is pretty clear cut. It KK>ED>K >ED>flip side I'm talking about. Non-Jewish men wearing yarmulkes. Like KK>ED>K >ED>about 5-6 years ago I saw this picture of Clinton and Dinkins weari KK>ED>K >ED>and it got me to wondering. KK>ED>K > KK>ED>K >It's not pretty clear cut. As I mentioned in a message, many Sephardic KK>ED>K >Jews do not always wear a head covering. KK>ED>K > KK>ED>But what about the non-Jews wearing a yarmulke. KK>Well, the pope wears one :-) ROFTL :) And Bob says : " "We eat matzah in our church too." :) Date: Friday, May 15, 1998 8:49am Forum: Theology From: Editor Msg#: 746340 To: Kkid Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746321, Reply to #746315, Reply to #746313, R*) (2 replies) K >ED>K >ED>No... Jewish men not wearing head coverings is pretty clear c K >ED>K >ED>flip side I'm talking about. Non-Jewish men wearing yarmulkes K >ED>K >ED>about 5-6 years ago I saw this picture of Clinton and Dinkins K >ED>K >ED>and it got me to wondering. K >ED>K > K >ED>K >It's not pretty clear cut. As I mentioned in a message, many Sep K >ED>K >Jews do not always wear a head covering. K >ED>K > K > K >ED>But what about the non-Jews wearing a yarmulke. K > K >Well, the pope wears one :-) K > K >(You did see my response to your question...I hope) Yes I did, but it went right by me. And yes, the Pope wears one, but again, his boss is a Jewish carpenter. But seriously, its not the same. I sometimes see a local, non Jewish politician visiting our synagogue during Saturday morning services wearing a yarmulke. Somehow I find it mildly offensive. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Friday, May 15, 1998 10:01am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 746342 To: Vida Re: The linear siddur (Reply to #746334, Reply to #746318, Reply to #746304, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>S VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>The words in the Kaddish are pratically identical to the w VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Thanks for the congratulations, but I feel like they are not des VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Actually, I am angry at myself because I have not pursuing my He VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>language study. I haven't taken a class in at least a year. An VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>meanwhile, I have been stuck at the same level of nonunderstandi VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>over a year! VI>SF>VI>SF>A year ago you could not have posted what you did. VI>SF>VI>Two or three years ago I could not have posted what I did. But for th VI>SF>VI>past year or year and a half I have stalled out in my Jewish studies i VI>SF>VI>general and with my Hebrew studies specifically. VI>SF>VI>Of course, there is only one person to blame: me. The problem is VI>SF>VI>finding the time and a good teacher. VI>SF>VI>What I really ought to do is call Hebrew Union College and see if they VI>SF>VI>can hook me up with a tutor. This way I can help support a rabbinical VI>SF>VI>student and learn some Hebrew at the same time. I figure that HUC is VI>SF>VI>good place for me to turn because the school is located in the Village VI>SF>VI>as opposed to JTS (The Jewish Theological Seminary) which is located o VI>SF>VI>the upper West Side near Columbia. I can get myself over to HUC a lot VI>SF>VI>easier than JTS. VI>SF>Sounds like an excellent plan. VI>Now the eternal question is: Will I get off my posterior to do so? :) If you really want to, you will! Date: Saturday, May 16, 1998 8:28am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746371 To: Editor Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746340, Reply to #746321, Reply to #746315, R*) (2 replies) ED>K >ED>K >ED>No... Jewish men not wearing head coverings is pretty clear c ED>K >ED>K >ED>flip side I'm talking about. Non-Jewish men wearing yarmulkes ED>K >ED>K >ED>about 5-6 years ago I saw this picture of Clinton and Dinkins ED>K >ED>K >ED>and it got me to wondering. ED>K >ED>K > ED>K >ED>K >It's not pretty clear cut. As I mentioned in a message, many Sep ED>K >ED>K >Jews do not always wear a head covering. ED>K >ED>K > ED>K > ED>K >ED>But what about the non-Jews wearing a yarmulke. ED>K > ED>K >Well, the pope wears one :-) ED>K > ED>K >(You did see my response to your question...I hope) ED>Yes I did, but it went right by me. And yes, the Pope wears one, but again, ED>his boss is a Jewish carpenter. ED>But seriously, its not the same. I sometimes see a local, non Jewish ED>politician visiting our synagogue during Saturday morning services wearing ED>a yarmulke. Somehow I find it mildly offensive. And I would find it VERY offensive if he didn't do so! Date: Saturday, May 16, 1998 8:29am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746372 To: Steve Flur Re: The linear siddur (Reply to #746342, Reply to #746334, Reply to #746318, R*) SF>VI>SF>VI>S SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>The words in the Kaddish are pratically identical to th SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Thanks for the congratulations, but I feel like they are not SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Actually, I am angry at myself because I have not pursuing my SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>language study. I haven't taken a class in at least a year. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>meanwhile, I have been stuck at the same level of nonundersta SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>over a year! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>A year ago you could not have posted what you did. SF>VI>SF>VI>Two or three years ago I could not have posted what I did. But for SF>VI>SF>VI>past year or year and a half I have stalled out in my Jewish studie SF>VI>SF>VI>general and with my Hebrew studies specifically. SF>VI>SF>VI>Of course, there is only one person to blame: me. The problem is SF>VI>SF>VI>finding the time and a good teacher. SF>VI>SF>VI>What I really ought to do is call Hebrew Union College and see if t SF>VI>SF>VI>can hook me up with a tutor. This way I can help support a rabbini SF>VI>SF>VI>student and learn some Hebrew at the same time. I figure that HUC SF>VI>SF>VI>good place for me to turn because the school is located in the Vill SF>VI>SF>VI>as opposed to JTS (The Jewish Theological Seminary) which is locate SF>VI>SF>VI>the upper West Side near Columbia. I can get myself over to HUC a SF>VI>SF>VI>easier than JTS. SF>VI>SF>Sounds like an excellent plan. SF>VI>Now the eternal question is: Will I get off my posterior to do so? :) SF>If you really want to, you will! So it would seem. Date: Saturday, May 16, 1998 11:09am Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 746375 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746371, Reply to #746340, Reply to #746321, R*) (1 reply) VI>ED>K >ED>K >ED>No... Jewish men not wearing head coverings is pretty clear c VI>ED>K >ED>K >ED>flip side I'm talking about. Non-Jewish men wearing yarmulkes VI>ED>K >ED>K >ED>about 5-6 years ago I saw this picture of Clinton and Dinkins VI>ED>K >ED>K >ED>and it got me to wondering. VI>ED>K >ED>K > VI>ED>K >ED>K >It's not pretty clear cut. As I mentioned in a message, many Sep VI>ED>K >ED>K >Jews do not always wear a head covering. VI>ED>K >ED>K > VI>ED>K > VI>ED>K >ED>But what about the non-Jews wearing a yarmulke. VI>ED>K > VI>ED>K >Well, the pope wears one :-) VI>ED>K > VI>ED>K >(You did see my response to your question...I hope) VI>ED>Yes I did, but it went right by me. And yes, the Pope wears one, but agai VI>ED>his boss is a Jewish carpenter. VI>ED>But seriously, its not the same. I sometimes see a local, non Jewish VI>ED>politician visiting our synagogue during Saturday morning services wearin VI>ED>a yarmulke. Somehow I find it mildly offensive. VI>And I would find it VERY offensive if he didn't do so! Well, what would you think if you went to a mass at a Catholic church and saw a jewish women wearing a yarmulke?? --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Barium: what you do with dead chemists. - Jay Werkheiser Date: Saturday, May 16, 1998 11:26am Forum: Theology From: Editor Msg#: 746378 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746371, Reply to #746340, Reply to #746321, R*) (3 replies) V >ED>Yes I did, but it went right by me. And yes, the Pope wears one, bu V >ED>his boss is a Jewish carpenter. V > V >ED>But seriously, its not the same. I sometimes see a local, non Jewis V >ED>politician visiting our synagogue during Saturday morning services V >ED>a yarmulke. Somehow I find it mildly offensive. V > V >And I would find it VERY offensive if he didn't do so! Okay... try this. How do you think a Catholic feels when you don't kneel in Church? Or how about the commotion when Clinton received communion on this African trip. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Sunday, May 17, 1998 9:06am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746385 To: Nightbird Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746375, Reply to #746371, Reply to #746340, R*) (1 reply) NI>VI>ED>But seriously, its not the same. I sometimes see a local, non Jewish NI>VI>ED>politician visiting our synagogue during Saturday morning services wea NI>VI>ED>a yarmulke. Somehow I find it mildly offensive. NI>VI>And I would find it VERY offensive if he didn't do so! NI>Well, what would you think if you went to a mass at a Catholic church NI>and saw a jewish women wearing a yarmulke?? When visiting a house of worship of another religion one should always respect the practice of that religion EXCEPT when to do so would violate your own religious principles. So if a Jewish person ALWAYS wears a yarmulke he/she should not take off the yarmulke when he/she enters a church. But this would only apply to a very religious Jew who normally does not take off a yarmulke except to shower or bathe. A less religious Jew should not wear a yarmulke in a church. When I go to mass with Bob I show respect for the Catholic religion by standing for those portions of the mass where the congregration stands. But I can not kneel in those portions of the mass where the congregration kneels. For me to do so would violate my religious principles as a Jew. So instead of kneeling I seat down, which shows respect by being as inconcipious as possible. And of course, I would never take communion--for me to do so would be against both Jewish and Catholic religious principles! Date: Sunday, May 17, 1998 9:06am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746386 To: Editor Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746378, Reply to #746371, Reply to #746340, R*) (1 reply) Date: Sunday, May 17, 1998 9:11am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746387 To: Editor Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746378, Reply to #746371, Reply to #746340, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >ED>Yes I did, but it went right by me. And yes, the Pope wears one, bu ED>V >ED>his boss is a Jewish carpenter. ED>V > ED>V >ED>But seriously, its not the same. I sometimes see a local, non Jewis ED>V >ED>politician visiting our synagogue during Saturday morning services ED>V >ED>a yarmulke. Somehow I find it mildly offensive. ED>V > ED>V >And I would find it VERY offensive if he didn't do so! ED>Okay... try this. How do you think a Catholic feels when you don't kneel in ED>Church? Or how about the commotion when Clinton received communion on this ED>African trip. I would hope that a Catholic would understand that I can't kneel in church without violating my religious principles as a Jew. And as for Clinton, I thought that was stupid of him to take communion at that church in Africa. In the prayer book at Bob's Church it clearly states that ONLY Catholics should take communion at a Catholic Church. And a reasonably well educated person should know this already. Which makes Clinton's claim that he thought that any Christian could receive communion very hard to take seriously! Date: Sunday, May 17, 1998 11:02am Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 746388 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746333, Reply to #746312, Reply to #746306, R*) (1 reply) VI>But this is a theoritical discussion. I seem to recall you saying a VI>while back that a "frum" Jew would never enter a church. So if my VI>memory is correct, than my answer to you is: If a Jew is "nonfrum" VI>enough to attend a church service than he should not put on a yarmulke VI>when he does so! :) VI> You have a good memory :-) VI>KK>The yarmulke did start out as a tradition. For Orthodox Jews it is now VI>KK>considered more or less a law. Sephardic Jews do not always wear one, VI>KK> , as it was not their custom. Many very religious ones do always VI>KK>wear one. All religious sephardic Jews will wear one during prayer and VI>KK>during meals as far as I know. VI>More or less law is NOT law. Either its law or it is not law. I said more or less because I am not sure. However, only Jews have the requirement for wearing a Yarmulka and they wear it whether or not they are in shul. Personally I don't see it as an affront if a non Jew does not wear one ANYWHERE. It never made any sense to me to see a non Jew wearing one. I do not see it as a sign or respect or as a sign of anything concrete regardless of whether or not is is or is not similar to a tallit or tefillen. VI>KK>VI> Conservative movement teaches that the fact VI>KK>VI>that a Jewish woman may be exempt from certain mitzvot does not mean VI>KK>VI>that she is prohibited from following those mitzvot. VI>KK>Same is true for the Orthodox movement. [B [B [B Date: Sunday, May 17, 1998 11:05am Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 746389 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746335, Reply to #746321, Reply to #746315, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>ED>K >ED>No... Jewish men not wearing head coverings is pretty clear cut. VI>KK>ED>K >ED>flip side I'm talking about. Non-Jewish men wearing yarmulkes. L VI>KK>ED>K >ED>about 5-6 years ago I saw this picture of Clinton and Dinkins we VI>KK>ED>K >ED>and it got me to wondering. VI>KK>ED>K > VI>KK>ED>K >It's not pretty clear cut. As I mentioned in a message, many Sephar VI>KK>ED>K >Jews do not always wear a head covering. VI>KK>ED>K > VI>KK>ED>But what about the non-Jews wearing a yarmulke. VI>KK>Well, the pope wears one :-) VI>ROFTL :) VI>And Bob says : " "We eat matzah in our church too." :) I hope Bob understands that the Jews did this all first :-) Remind him that the Jews also have a holiday devoted to a Lulav :-) Date: Sunday, May 17, 1998 11:07am Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 746390 To: Editor Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746340, Reply to #746321, Reply to #746315, R*) (2 replies) ED>But seriously, its not the same. I sometimes see a local, non Jewish ED>politician visiting our synagogue during Saturday morning services wearing ED>a yarmulke. Somehow I find it mildly offensive. I find it more than mildly offensive as it makes no sense to me at all why a non Jew would be wearing a yarmulka. Is it supposed to make the Jew's happy or something? I will not repost my message again but it is somewhere there where I did list 1 or 2 stronger objections based on law why I feel it is WRONG to allow a non jew to wear a yarmulka. Date: Sunday, May 17, 1998 6:07pm Forum: Theology From: Editor Msg#: 746393 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746386, Reply to #746378, Reply to #746371, R*) (1 reply) V > I see my sharp repartee has left you speechless. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Sunday, May 17, 1998 6:07pm Forum: Theology From: Editor Msg#: 746394 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746387, Reply to #746378, Reply to #746371, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>Okay... try this. How do you think a Catholic feels when you don't V >ED>Church? Or how about the commotion when Clinton received communion V >ED>African trip. V > V >I would hope that a Catholic would understand that I can't kneel in V >church without violating my religious principles as a Jew. Actually, by even being in that Church you have already bent your principles. But suppose that the parishoner is offended because you don't kneel. V >And as for Clinton, I thought that was stupid of him to take communion V >at that church in Africa. Nothing he does surprises me anymore. V >In the prayer book at Bob's Church it clearly states that ONLY V >Catholics should take communion at a Catholic Church. And a reasonabl V >well educated person should know this already. Which makes Clinton's V >claim that he thought that any Christian could receive communion very V >hard to take seriously! I'm tired of typing the words. That the Lord we haven't had a real crisis in the last six years. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Sunday, May 17, 1998 6:07pm Forum: Theology From: Editor Msg#: 746395 To: Kkid Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746390, Reply to #746340, Reply to #746321, R*) (1 reply) K >ED>But seriously, its not the same. I sometimes see a local, non Jewis K >ED>politician visiting our synagogue during Saturday morning services K >ED>a yarmulke. Somehow I find it mildly offensive. K > K >I find it more than mildly offensive as it makes no sense to me at all K >why a non Jew would be wearing a yarmulka. Is it supposed to make the K >Jew's happy or something? K >I will not repost my message again but it is somewhere there where I d K >list 1 or 2 stronger objections based on law why I feel it is WRONG to K >allow a non jew to wear a yarmulka. I guess that it was a special case. Some politicians its respect, some are clearing mocking and pandering. I'm very curious about those references. I think I'm about to open a can of worms on this topic, and I'm not well enough educated in the law to be able to defend that position. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Sunday, May 17, 1998 10:08pm Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 746397 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746385, Reply to #746375, Reply to #746371, R*) (1 reply) VI>NI>VI>ED>But seriously, its not the same. I sometimes see a local, non Jewis VI>NI>VI>ED>politician visiting our synagogue during Saturday morning services VI>NI>VI>ED>a yarmulke. Somehow I find it mildly offensive. VI>NI>VI>And I would find it VERY offensive if he didn't do so! VI>NI>Well, what would you think if you went to a mass at a Catholic church VI>NI>and saw a jewish women wearing a yarmulke?? VI>When visiting a house of worship of another religion one should always VI>respect the practice of that religion EXCEPT when to do so would VI>violate your own religious principles. I understand this, the reason I asked was because I had attended a mass for two friends of mine. One of the women's step sister was there, she is Jewish & was wearing a yarmulke. This was the first time I had EVER seen a women wearing a yarmulke. VI>So if a Jewish person ALWAYS wears a yarmulke he/she should not take VI>off the yarmulke when he/she enters a church. But this would only VI>apply to a very religious Jew who normally does not take off a yarmulke VI>except to shower or bathe. A less religious Jew should not wear a VI>yarmulke in a church. VI>When I go to mass with Bob I show respect for the Catholic religion by VI>standing for those portions of the mass where the congregration stands. VI> But I can not kneel in those portions of the mass where the VI>congregration kneels. For me to do so would violate my religious VI>principles as a Jew. So instead of kneeling I seat down, which shows VI>respect by being as inconcipious as possible. And of course, I would VI>never take communion--for me to do so would be against both Jewish and VI>Catholic religious principles! I understand why you sit when it's time to kneel(but then in my church we DON'T kneel, we stand during the prayers that most churchs would kneel at) I also understand your reason for not receiving communion but here's a funny for you. Last year one of my best friends got married & I was the maid-of-honor. There were two Jewish men in the bridal party, the priest who said the mass blessed them(which is permitted). One of the guests who is also Jewish thought they had received communion & went up to receive communion. Needless to say, we teased him the rest of the day about it. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ "Beans, the musical fruit" sang Tom, astutely. Date: Sunday, May 17, 1998 10:08pm Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 746398 To: Editor Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746378, Reply to #746371, Reply to #746340, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >ED>Yes I did, but it went right by me. And yes, the Pope wears one, bu ED>V >ED>his boss is a Jewish carpenter. ED>V > ED>V >ED>But seriously, its not the same. I sometimes see a local, non Jewis ED>V >ED>politician visiting our synagogue during Saturday morning services ED>V >ED>a yarmulke. Somehow I find it mildly offensive. ED>V > ED>V >And I would find it VERY offensive if he didn't do so! ED>Okay... try this. How do you think a Catholic feels when you don't kneel in ED>Church? Or how about the commotion when Clinton received communion on this ED>African trip. I have a friend who is Jewish who attends mass with his Catholic girlfriend. He stands when it's time to stand & sits when it's time to sit(we don't kneel during the communion prayers at our parish). You would never know he isn't Catholic & I really don't think anybody would find it offensive if they did know. This is speaking as a Catholic. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ We're sorry, but reality is not in service at this time. Date: Monday, May 18, 1998 6:49am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746401 To: Kkid Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746388, Reply to #746333, Reply to #746312, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>But this is a theoritical discussion. I seem to recall you saying a KK>VI>while back that a "frum" Jew would never enter a church. So if my KK>VI>memory is correct, than my answer to you is: If a Jew is "nonfrum" KK>VI>enough to attend a church service than he should not put on a yarmulke KK>VI>when he does so! :) KK>VI> KK>You have a good memory :-) Thank you. I do pay attention to what you say. :) KK>VI>KK>The yarmulke did start out as a tradition. For Orthodox Jews it is now KK>VI>KK>considered more or less a law. Sephardic Jews do not always wear one, KK>VI>KK> , as it was not their custom. Many very religious ones do always KK>VI>KK>wear one. All religious sephardic Jews will wear one during prayer and KK>VI>KK>during meals as far as I know. KK>VI>More or less law is NOT law. Either its law or it is not law. KK>I said more or less because I am not sure. However, only Jews have the KK>requirement for wearing a Yarmulka and they wear it whether or not they KK>are in shul. Personally I don't see it as an affront if a non Jew does KK>not wear one ANYWHERE. It never made any sense to me to see a non Jew KK>wearing one. I do not see it as a sign or respect or as a sign of KK>anything concrete regardless of whether or not is is or is not similar KK>to a tallit or tefillen. I recall that when I took my "Introduction to Judaism" class that they taught us that wearing a yarmulke is only a tradition, not a matter of law. But the class was taught by the Brownstone Brooklyn Jewish Coaltion--a consortium of non Orthodox synagogues in Brooklyn Heights, Park Slope and Cobble Hill. So it's very possible that Orthodox Judasim might not agree on this point. KK>VI>KK>VI> Conservative movement teaches that the fact KK>VI>KK>VI>that a Jewish woman may be exempt from certain mitzvot does not mea KK>VI>KK>VI>that she is prohibited from following those mitzvot. KK>VI>KK>Same is true for the Orthodox movement. So is it acceptable for an Orthodox Jewish woman to choose to wear a tallit or to choose to lay tefflin? KK>[B KK> [B KK> [B Date: Monday, May 18, 1998 6:54am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746402 To: Kkid Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746389, Reply to #746335, Reply to #746321, R*) KK>VI>KK>ED>K >ED>No... Jewish men not wearing head coverings is pretty clear c KK>VI>KK>ED>K >ED>flip side I'm talking about. Non-Jewish men wearing yarmulkes KK>VI>KK>ED>K >ED>about 5-6 years ago I saw this picture of Clinton and Dinkins KK>VI>KK>ED>K >ED>and it got me to wondering. KK>VI>KK>ED>K > KK>VI>KK>ED>K >It's not pretty clear cut. As I mentioned in a message, many Sep KK>VI>KK>ED>K >Jews do not always wear a head covering. KK>VI>KK>ED>K > KK>VI>KK>ED>But what about the non-Jews wearing a yarmulke. KK>VI>KK>Well, the pope wears one :-) KK>VI>ROFTL :) KK>VI>And Bob says : " "We eat matzah in our church too." :) KK>I hope Bob understands that the Jews did this all first :-) KK>Remind him that the Jews also have a holiday devoted to a Lulav :-) He is very aware of both! I have pointed out to him the similarity to the Jewish practice of waving the Lulav on Sukkot and the Palm Sunday tradition of waving a cross made out of a palm leaf! Date: Monday, May 18, 1998 6:56am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746403 To: Kkid Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746390, Reply to #746340, Reply to #746321, R*) (1 reply) KK>ED>But seriously, its not the same. I sometimes see a local, non Jewish KK>ED>politician visiting our synagogue during Saturday morning services wearin KK>ED>a yarmulke. Somehow I find it mildly offensive. KK>I find it more than mildly offensive as it makes no sense to me at all KK>why a non Jew would be wearing a yarmulka. Is it supposed to make the KK>Jew's happy or something? KK>I will not repost my message again but it is somewhere there where I did KK>list 1 or 2 stronger objections based on law why I feel it is WRONG to KK>allow a non jew to wear a yarmulka. If there is such an objection based upon Jewish law I wish you would cite it. Since I believe that it would be disrespectful for a non Jewish male NOT to wear a yarmulke I wish you would educate me if I am wrong. Date: Monday, May 18, 1998 6:57am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746404 To: Editor Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746393, Reply to #746386, Reply to #746378, R*) ED>V > ED>I see my sharp repartee has left you speechless. Heaven knows what the hell happen that time! :) Date: Monday, May 18, 1998 7:02am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746405 To: Editor Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746394, Reply to #746387, Reply to #746378, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >ED>Okay... try this. How do you think a Catholic feels when you don't ED>V >ED>Church? Or how about the commotion when Clinton received communion ED>V >ED>African trip. ED>V > ED>V >I would hope that a Catholic would understand that I can't kneel in ED>V >church without violating my religious principles as a Jew. ED>Actually, by even being in that Church you have already bent your ED>principles. But suppose that the parishoner is offended because you don't ED>kneel. I doubt that any of the parishoners even notice, except maybe Bob. Remember the practice is kneel in the same spot as you were seated. In the spots where the congregration knees, I sit down or remain seated. So my head is only barely higher than the most of the congregration. And there are members of the congregration, mostly older people, who do not kneel--I suppose for physical limitations reasons. ED>V >And as for Clinton, I thought that was stupid of him to take communion ED>V >at that church in Africa. ED>Nothing he does surprises me anymore. Well this was a bad mistep, for sure! ED>V >In the prayer book at Bob's Church it clearly states that ONLY ED>V >Catholics should take communion at a Catholic Church. And a reasonabl ED>V >well educated person should know this already. Which makes Clinton's ED>V >claim that he thought that any Christian could receive communion very ED>V >hard to take seriously! ED>I'm tired of typing the words. That the Lord we haven't had a real crisis ED>in the last six years. I don't see the connection. Nor do I think Clinton is as bad as you think he is. Date: Monday, May 18, 1998 7:15am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746406 To: Nightbird Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746397, Reply to #746385, Reply to #746375, R*) (2 replies) NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>But seriously, its not the same. I sometimes see a local, non Je NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>politician visiting our synagogue during Saturday morning servic NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>a yarmulke. Somehow I find it mildly offensive. NI>VI>NI>VI>And I would find it VERY offensive if he didn't do so! NI>VI>NI>Well, what would you think if you went to a mass at a Catholic church NI>VI>NI>and saw a jewish women wearing a yarmulke?? NI>VI>When visiting a house of worship of another religion one should always NI>VI>respect the practice of that religion EXCEPT when to do so would NI>VI>violate your own religious principles. NI>I understand this, the reason I asked was because I had attended a mass NI>for two friends of mine. One of the women's step sister was there, she NI>is Jewish & was wearing a yarmulke. NI>This was the first time I had EVER seen a women wearing a yarmulke. In nonOrthodox Jewish congregrations some women wear yarmulkes. I wear a tallit (a Jewish prayer shawl) when I pray at morning Jewish services. Traditionally only Jewish men wore a tallit. BTW, my personal tallit is a gift from Bob! He bought me a beautiful "rainbow" pattern tallit for my birthday a few years ago. :) NI>VI>So if a Jewish person ALWAYS wears a yarmulke he/she should not take NI>VI>off the yarmulke when he/she enters a church. But this would only NI>VI>apply to a very religious Jew who normally does not take off a yarmulke NI>VI>except to shower or bathe. A less religious Jew should not wear a NI>VI>yarmulke in a church. NI>VI>When I go to mass with Bob I show respect for the Catholic religion by NI>VI>standing for those portions of the mass where the congregration stands. NI>VI> But I can not kneel in those portions of the mass where the NI>VI>congregration kneels. For me to do so would violate my religious NI>VI>principles as a Jew. So instead of kneeling I seat down, which shows NI>VI>respect by being as inconcipious as possible. And of course, I would NI>VI>never take communion--for me to do so would be against both Jewish and NI>VI>Catholic religious principles! NI>I understand why you sit when it's time to kneel(but then in my church NI>we DON'T kneel, we stand during the prayers that most churchs would NI>kneel at) That's interesting. That kind of variation is permitted by the Brooklyn Arch Diocese? I thought that the Arch diocese would more or less lay out a uniform form of practice on this matter. But then again, I went with Bob to a Latin mass once at a Catholic church in Brooklyn--apparently this church has Latin masses every week. NI>I also understand your reason for not receiving communion but here's a NI>funny for you. Last year one of my best friends got married & I was the NI>maid-of-honor. There were two Jewish men in the bridal party, the NI>priest who said the mass blessed them(which is permitted). One of the NI>guests who is also Jewish thought they had received communion & went up NI>to receive communion. Needless to say, we teased him the rest of the NI>day about it. As long as people are in good faith try to show respect for the religion of the "host" house of worship is what counts! :) Date: Monday, May 18, 1998 9:15am Forum: Theology From: Editor Msg#: 746408 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746405, Reply to #746394, Reply to #746387, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>I'm tired of typing the words. That the Lord we haven't had a real V >ED>in the last six years. V > V >I don't see the connection. Nor do I think Clinton is as bad as you V >think he is. When Clinton took office we had a healthy economy, a peace process in place in the middle east, the respect of the world and a strong and proud military. Four out of five gone. The man is worse than a pimp. At least a pimp is honest about his intentions. Things like taking communion show how little he understands and/or cares about anything other than, as Imus puts it, "good food and catching babes". --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Monday, May 18, 1998 9:15am Forum: Theology From: Editor Msg#: 746409 To: Nightbird Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746398, Reply to #746378, Reply to #746371, R*) (1 reply) N >ED>Okay... try this. How do you think a Catholic feels when you don't N >ED>Church? Or how about the commotion when Clinton received communion N >ED>African trip. N > N >I have a friend who is Jewish who attends mass with his Catholic N >girlfriend. He stands when it's time to stand & sits when it's time t N >sit(we don't kneel during the communion prayers at our parish). You N >would never know he isn't Catholic & I really don't think anybody woul N >find it offensive if they did know. N >This is speaking as a Catholic. How did you feel about Clinton in Africa? --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Monday, May 18, 1998 11:18am Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 746413 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746406, Reply to #746397, Reply to #746385, R*) (1 reply) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>But seriously, its not the same. I sometimes see a local, non VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>politician visiting our synagogue during Saturday morning ser VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>ED>a yarmulke. Somehow I find it mildly offensive. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>And I would find it VERY offensive if he didn't do so! VI>NI>VI>NI>Well, what would you think if you went to a mass at a Catholic chur VI>NI>VI>NI>and saw a jewish women wearing a yarmulke?? VI>NI>VI>When visiting a house of worship of another religion one should always VI>NI>VI>respect the practice of that religion EXCEPT when to do so would VI>NI>VI>violate your own religious principles. VI>NI>I understand this, the reason I asked was because I had attended a mass VI>NI>for two friends of mine. One of the women's step sister was there, she VI>NI>is Jewish & was wearing a yarmulke. VI>NI>This was the first time I had EVER seen a women wearing a yarmulke. VI>In nonOrthodox Jewish congregrations some women wear yarmulkes. I wear VI>a tallit (a Jewish prayer shawl) when I pray at morning Jewish VI>services. Traditionally only Jewish men wore a tallit. The person in question prepares children for their bat/bar mizvah. I thought it was funny because the stepsister(my friend) is Catholic & is a teacher at a Catholic school. VI>BTW, my personal tallit is a gift from Bob! He bought me a beautiful VI>"rainbow" pattern tallit for my birthday a few years ago. :) VI>NI>VI>So if a Jewish person ALWAYS wears a yarmulke he/she should not take VI>NI>VI>off the yarmulke when he/she enters a church. But this would only VI>NI>VI>apply to a very religious Jew who normally does not take off a yarmulk VI>NI>VI>except to shower or bathe. A less religious Jew should not wear a VI>NI>VI>yarmulke in a church. VI>NI>VI>When I go to mass with Bob I show respect for the Catholic religion by VI>NI>VI>standing for those portions of the mass where the congregration stands VI>NI>VI> But I can not kneel in those portions of the mass where the VI>NI>VI>congregration kneels. For me to do so would violate my religious VI>NI>VI>principles as a Jew. So instead of kneeling I seat down, which shows VI>NI>VI>respect by being as inconcipious as possible. And of course, I would VI>NI>VI>never take communion--for me to do so would be against both Jewish and VI>NI>VI>Catholic religious principles! VI>NI>I understand why you sit when it's time to kneel(but then in my church VI>NI>we DON'T kneel, we stand during the prayers that most churchs would VI>NI>kneel at) VI>That's interesting. VI>That kind of variation is permitted by the Brooklyn Arch Diocese? I VI>thought that the Arch diocese would more or less lay out a uniform form VI>of practice on this matter. But then again, I went with Bob to a Latin VI>mass once at a Catholic church in Brooklyn--apparently this church has VI>Latin masses every week. I'm not too sure but I think the Pastor of the Parish has a choice wheather the people should stand or kneel during the communion prayers. I went to a mass on long island yesterday & they kneeled. I've never been to a latin mass, I would be totally loss. VI>NI>I also understand your reason for not receiving communion but here's a funny for you. Last year one of my best friends got married & I was the maid of honor. There were two Jewish men in the bridal party, the priest who said the mass blessed them bt one of the guys brothers(who is Jewish)received because he thought his brother had. VI>As long as people are in good faith try to show respect for the VI>religion of the "host" house of worship is what counts! :) Trust me, they did but it was VERY interesting. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ The worst thing about censorship is ÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛ. Date: Monday, May 18, 1998 11:18am Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 746414 To: Editor Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746409, Reply to #746398, Reply to #746378, R*) (1 reply) ED>N >ED>Okay... try this. How do you think a Catholic feels when you don't ED>N >ED>Church? Or how about the commotion when Clinton received communion ED>N >ED>African trip. ED>N > ED>N >I have a friend who is Jewish who attends mass with his Catholic ED>N >girlfriend. He stands when it's time to stand & sits when it's time t ED>N >sit(we don't kneel during the communion prayers at our parish). You ED>N >would never know he isn't Catholic & I really don't think anybody woul ED>N >find it offensive if they did know. ED>N >This is speaking as a Catholic. ED>How did you feel about Clinton in Africa? Personally, I feel he had no right to receive. In the Catholic church, you must be free from Mortal Sin to receive communion. I think he knows he probadly wasn't. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ A man needs a good memory after he has lied. Date: Monday, May 18, 1998 2:17pm Forum: Theology From: Editor Msg#: 746420 To: Nightbird Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746414, Reply to #746409, Reply to #746398, R*) (2 replies) N >ED>How did you feel about Clinton in Africa? N > N >Personally, I feel he had no right to receive. N >In the Catholic church, you must be free from Mortal Sin to receive N >communion. N >I think he knows he probadly wasn't. That's pretty funny.... wasn't even what I was thinking of. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Monday, May 18, 1998 7:41pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 746421 To: Editor Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746395, Reply to #746390, Reply to #746340, R*) (2 replies) In my shul there are generally one or two non Jews who wheel handicapped individuals to shul. They often remain in shul during the prayers. One of them was doing something that a Jew should not be doing on the Sabbath and was yelled at for doing so. The person doing the yelling thought he was yelling at a Jew. Maras Ayin comes into play that an individual who is not learned may see this non Jew doing something that a Jew is not supposed to do and think that it is OK to do it. I guess if the non Jew who is wearing a yarmulka is someone who everyone knows is not a Jew then this reason would not apply. There was a similar incident where a waiter who was not Jewish walked out wearing a Yarmulka on the Sabbath and entered a car, and then went back to complete his work. Date: Monday, May 18, 1998 7:45pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 746422 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746401, Reply to #746388, Reply to #746333, R*) VI>So is it acceptable for an Orthodox Jewish woman to choose to wear a VI>tallit or to choose to lay tefflin? I think Rashi's daughter was the one who wore tefillin. No, I do not think it is acceptable. Can a women wear them? I guess she can. The tefillin is probably a no-no during her period and while she is a niddah. Date: Monday, May 18, 1998 7:48pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 746423 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746403, Reply to #746390, Reply to #746340, R*) (1 reply) VI>If there is such an objection based upon Jewish law I wish you would VI>cite it. Since I believe that it would be disrespectful for a non VI>Jewish male NOT to wear a yarmulke I wish you would educate me if I am VI>wrong. I am not aware of any objection to this based on law. I certainly do not see it as disrespectful at all if a non Jew does not wear one. As far as I am concerned it is an article for Jewish males. As a matter of fact from what I recall, in the shuls where there are non Jewish help, they do not wear yarmulkas while in shul. Date: Tuesday, May 19, 1998 3:23am Forum: Theology From: Editor Msg#: 746427 To: Kkid Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746421, Reply to #746395, Reply to #746390, R*) (1 reply) K >In my shul there are generally one or two non Jews who wheel handicapp K >individuals to shul. They often remain in shul during the prayers. One K >of them was doing something that a Jew should not be doing on the K >Sabbath and was yelled at for doing so. The person doing the yelling K >thought he was yelling at a Jew. K > K >Maras Ayin comes into play that an individual who is not learned may s K >this non Jew doing something that a Jew is not supposed to do and thin K >that it is OK to do it. I guess if the non Jew who is wearing a yarmul K >is someone who everyone knows is not a Jew then this reason would not K >apply. K > K >There was a similar incident where a waiter who was not Jewish walked K >out wearing a Yarmulka on the Sabbath and entered a car, and then went K >back to complete his work. Interesting. I see. The same logic that says you shouldn't eat something that looks like it isn't Kosher even if it is kosher? --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Tuesday, May 19, 1998 5:50am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746431 To: Editor Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746408, Reply to #746405, Reply to #746394, R*) ED>V >ED>I'm tired of typing the words. That the Lord we haven't had a real ED>V >ED>in the last six years. ED>V > ED>V >I don't see the connection. Nor do I think Clinton is as bad as you ED>V >think he is. ED>When Clinton took office we had a healthy economy, a peace process in place ED>in the middle east, the respect of the world and a strong and proud ED>military. Four out of five gone. The man is worse than a pimp. At least a ED>pimp is honest about his intentions. Things like taking communion show how ED>little he understands and/or cares about anything other than, as Imus puts ED>it, "good food and catching babes". No matter what, so far there has been no disaster during his administration. So if he has managed to keep things going so well he deserves some credit. Date: Tuesday, May 19, 1998 6:28am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746432 To: Nightbird Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746413, Reply to #746406, Reply to #746397, R*) (1 reply) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Well, what would you think if you went to a mass at a Catholic c NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>and saw a jewish women wearing a yarmulke?? NI>VI>NI>VI>When visiting a house of worship of another religion one should alw NI>VI>NI>VI>respect the practice of that religion EXCEPT when to do so would NI>VI>NI>VI>violate your own religious principles. NI>VI>NI>I understand this, the reason I asked was because I had attended a mas NI>VI>NI>for two friends of mine. One of the women's step sister was there, she NI>VI>NI>is Jewish & was wearing a yarmulke. NI>VI>NI>This was the first time I had EVER seen a women wearing a yarmulke. NI>VI>In nonOrthodox Jewish congregrations some women wear yarmulkes. I wear NI>VI>a tallit (a Jewish prayer shawl) when I pray at morning Jewish NI>VI>services. Traditionally only Jewish men wore a tallit. NI>The person in question prepares children for their bat/bar mizvah. NI>I thought it was funny because the stepsister(my friend) is Catholic & NI>is a teacher at a Catholic school. That IS funny. :) Then one can only assume that this woman wears a yarmulke all the time. She certainly sounds very religiously involved. One of the female assistant rabbis at my synagogue wears a yamulke all the time. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. I assume that a person has a good heart and means well--unless proven otherwise! (Intermediate exchanges ommitted.) NI>VI>NI>I understand why you sit when it's time to kneel(but then in my church NI>VI>NI>we DON'T kneel, we stand during the prayers that most churchs would NI>VI>NI>kneel at) NI>VI>That's interesting. NI>VI>That kind of variation is permitted by the Brooklyn Arch Diocese? I NI>VI>thought that the Arch diocese would more or less lay out a uniform form NI>VI>of practice on this matter. But then again, I went with Bob to a Latin NI>VI>mass once at a Catholic church in Brooklyn--apparently this church has NI>VI>Latin masses every week. NI>I'm not too sure but I think the Pastor of the Parish has a choice NI>wheather the people should stand or kneel during the communion prayers. NI>I went to a mass on long island yesterday & they kneeled. Yes. And at Bob's church they kneel also. Do you know why the Pastor of your Parish decided not to kneel during the communion prayers? Why, in the first place, do most congregrations kneel during these prayers? This kind of stuff interests me. Sometimes I go to a Reform synagogue in Brooklyn Heights rather than BJ in Manhattan, which is a Conservative synagogue. I have noticed that at the Reform synagouge they stand for some of the prayers where we sit at BJ. And for some of the prayers that we stand at BJ, they sit at the Reform synagogue. It confuses me sometimes, but I just follow the lead of the rest of the congregration when I visit the Reform synagogue. NI>I've never been to a latin mass, I would be totally loss. Listen if I wasn't at a total loss, you would be ok. :) NI>VI>NI>I also understand your reason for not receiving communion but NI>here's a funny for you. Last year one of my best friends got married & NI>I was the maid of honor. There were two Jewish men in the bridal party, NI>the priest who said the mass blessed them bt one of the guys NI>brothers(who is Jewish)received because he thought his brother had. NI>VI>As long as people are in good faith try to show respect for the NI>VI>religion of the "host" house of worship is what counts! :) NI>Trust me, they did but it was VERY interesting. Sounds like a sweet little misunderstanding to me. :) Date: Tuesday, May 19, 1998 6:30am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746433 To: Editor Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746420, Reply to #746414, Reply to #746409, R*) ED>N >ED>How did you feel about Clinton in Africa? ED>N > ED>N >Personally, I feel he had no right to receive. ED>N >In the Catholic church, you must be free from Mortal Sin to receive ED>N >communion. ED>N >I think he knows he probadly wasn't. ED>That's pretty funny.... wasn't even what I was thinking of. But she has an excellent point. :) Date: Tuesday, May 19, 1998 6:42am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746434 To: Kkid Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746421, Reply to #746395, Reply to #746390, R*) (1 reply) KK>In my shul there are generally one or two non Jews who wheel handicapped KK>individuals to shul. They often remain in shul during the prayers. One KK>of them was doing something that a Jew should not be doing on the KK>Sabbath and was yelled at for doing so. The person doing the yelling KK>thought he was yelling at a Jew. But wasn't the person doing the yelling also wrong? According to the concept of "lashon ha-ra" or "the evil tongue" you aren't supposed to cause embarsement to another human being by verbally reprimanding them. In this kind of situation, if you catch someone making a mistake, you should approach the person making the mistake and quietly inform them of their error. KK>Maras Ayin comes into play that an individual who is not learned may see KK>this non Jew doing something that a Jew is not supposed to do and think KK>that it is OK to do it. I guess if the non Jew who is wearing a yarmulka KK>is someone who everyone knows is not a Jew then this reason would not KK>apply. KK>There was a similar incident where a waiter who was not Jewish walked KK>out wearing a Yarmulka on the Sabbath and entered a car, and then went KK>back to complete his work. This is not a compelling reason for the prohibiting a nonJew from wearing a yarmulke inside a synagouge. A Jew, especially a nonobservant Jew could make a similiar mistake. So I still say, it would be an effront for a nonJewish male NOT to wear a yarmulke in a syngogue. :) Date: Tuesday, May 19, 1998 6:51am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746435 To: Kkid Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746423, Reply to #746403, Reply to #746390, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>If there is such an objection based upon Jewish law I wish you would KK>VI>cite it. Since I believe that it would be disrespectful for a non KK>VI>Jewish male NOT to wear a yarmulke I wish you would educate me if I am KK>VI>wrong. KK>I am not aware of any objection to this based on law. KK>I certainly do not see it as disrespectful at all if a non Jew does not KK>wear one. As far as I am concerned it is an article for Jewish males. KK>As a matter of fact from what I recall, in the shuls where there are non KK>Jewish help, they do not wear yarmulkas while in shul. But what makes a yarmulke an article of Jewish clothing? Religious Muslim men wear a head covering that looks virtually identical to a yarmulke. BTW, I wouldn't find it offensive for a nonJewish male not to wear a yarmulke inside a synagouge if he was working. But that's a special situation. As a general rule, I feel that men should wear one when they come to a Jewish prayer service. Date: Tuesday, May 19, 1998 11:24am Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 746438 To: Editor Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746420, Reply to #746414, Reply to #746409, R*) ED>N >ED>How did you feel about Clinton in Africa? ED>N > ED>N >Personally, I feel he had no right to receive. ED>N >In the Catholic church, you must be free from Mortal Sin to receive ED>N >communion. ED>N >I think he knows he probadly wasn't. ED>That's pretty funny.... wasn't even what I was thinking of. It's not funny, it's really sad. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ What? You mean you're out of soda water‚7Ï‹È NO PERRIER Date: Tuesday, May 19, 1998 11:24am Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 746439 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746432, Reply to #746413, Reply to #746406, R*) (1 reply) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Well, what would you think if you went to a mass at a Catholi VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>and saw a jewish women wearing a yarmulke?? VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>When visiting a house of worship of another religion one should VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>respect the practice of that religion EXCEPT when to do so would VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>violate your own religious principles. VI>NI>VI>NI>I understand this, the reason I asked was because I had attended a VI>NI>VI>NI>for two friends of mine. One of the women's step sister was there, VI>NI>VI>NI>is Jewish & was wearing a yarmulke. VI>NI>VI>NI>This was the first time I had EVER seen a women wearing a yarmulke. VI>NI>VI>In nonOrthodox Jewish congregrations some women wear yarmulkes. I wea VI>NI>VI>a tallit (a Jewish prayer shawl) when I pray at morning Jewish VI>NI>VI>services. Traditionally only Jewish men wore a tallit. VI>NI>The person in question prepares children for their bat/bar mizvah. VI>NI>I thought it was funny because the stepsister(my friend) is Catholic & VI>NI>is a teacher at a Catholic school. VI>That IS funny. :) VI>Then one can only assume that this woman wears a yarmulke all the time. VI> She certainly sounds very religiously involved. One of the female VI>assistant rabbis at my synagogue wears a yamulke all the time. VI>I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. I assume that a person VI>has a good heart and means well--unless proven otherwise! Well, if this person is like her step-sister, I know she's a good person. VI>(Intermediate exchanges ommitted.) VI>NI>VI>NI>I understand why you sit when it's time to kneel(but then in my chu VI>NI>VI>NI>we DON'T kneel, we stand during the prayers that most churchs would VI>NI>VI>NI>kneel at) VI>NI>VI>That's interesting. VI>NI>VI>That kind of variation is permitted by the Brooklyn Arch Diocese? I VI>NI>VI>thought that the Arch diocese would more or less lay out a uniform for VI>NI>VI>of practice on this matter. But then again, I went with Bob to a Lati VI>NI>VI>mass once at a Catholic church in Brooklyn--apparently this church has VI>NI>VI>Latin masses every week. VI>NI>I'm not too sure but I think the Pastor of the Parish has a choice VI>NI>wheather the people should stand or kneel during the communion prayers. VI>NI>I went to a mass on long island yesterday & they kneeled. VI>Yes. And at Bob's church they kneel also. VI>Do you know why the Pastor of your Parish decided not to kneel during VI>the communion prayers? Why, in the first place, do most congregrations VI>kneel during these prayers? VI>This kind of stuff interests me. It's because when we Catholics celebrate communion, we beileve we are receiving the body & blood of Christ. We kneel to show respect but I beileve that when the church first started, people stood during the communion prayers. VI>Sometimes I go to a Reform synagogue in Brooklyn Heights rather than BJ VI>in Manhattan, which is a Conservative synagogue. I have noticed that VI>at the Reform synagouge they stand for some of the prayers where we sit VI>at BJ. And for some of the prayers that we stand at BJ, they sit at VI>the Reform synagogue. It confuses me sometimes, but I just follow the VI>lead of the rest of the congregration when I visit the Reform synagogue. VI>NI>I've never been to a latin mass, I would be totally loss. VI>Listen if I wasn't at a total loss, you would be ok. :) VI>NI>VI>NI>I also understand your reason for not receiving communion but VI>NI>here's a funny for you. Last year one of my best friends got married & VI>NI>I was the maid of honor. There were two Jewish men in the bridal party, VI>NI>the priest who said the mass blessed them bt one of the guys VI>NI>brothers(who is Jewish)received because he thought his brother had. VI>NI>VI>As long as people are in good faith try to show respect for the VI>NI>VI>religion of the "host" house of worship is what counts! :) VI>NI>Trust me, they did but it was VERY interesting. VI>Sounds like a sweet little misunderstanding to me. :) Yes, it was a misunderstanding, but it was funny. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ ...hey was that thunder I heard @˜äÞœ¬*ιF/Ý&ˆ£, Date: Tuesday, May 19, 1998 11:40am Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 746440 To: Editor Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746427, Reply to #746421, Reply to #746395, R*) ED>Interesting. I see. The same logic that says you shouldn't eat something ED>that looks like it isn't Kosher even if it is kosher? Along those lines. We ARE permitted to eat something kosher even if does not look kosher as long as there is some sign there that would let people know that it is kosher. As an example, when margerine first came out it was not used at tables with meat unless there was some indication at the table that would let people know that it is not butter. Once margerine became more known and the norm no more sign was necessary. Back to yarmulkas....if you see someone wearing one, the odds are that he is a Jew or an undercover cop :-) Date: Tuesday, May 19, 1998 11:45am Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 746441 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746434, Reply to #746421, Reply to #746395, R*) (1 reply) VI>But wasn't the person doing the yelling also wrong? Nope. When someone is taking poison or is doing something that may be harmful, we don't stand on ceremony. We save the individual and tell him to stop. Once he stops you can then start giving reasons. VI>According to the concept of "lashon ha-ra" or "the evil tongue" you VI>aren't supposed to cause embarsement to another human being by verbally VI>reprimanding them. VI>In this kind of situation, if you catch someone making a mistake, you VI>should approach the person making the mistake and quietly inform them VI>of their error. [A If the person has already erred then you are correct. Regarding your point about causing embarrassment, it is actually permitted and if it will help cause the other individual to stop. Date: Tuesday, May 19, 1998 11:51am Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 746442 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746435, Reply to #746423, Reply to #746403, R*) (1 reply) VI>But what makes a yarmulke an article of Jewish clothing? Religious VI>Muslim men wear a head covering that looks virtually identical to a VI>yarmulke. Virtually identical does not make it identical. I would never have a problem discerning between a yarmulka and a Muslim head covering. VI>BTW, I wouldn't find it offensive for a nonJewish male not to wear a VI>yarmulke inside a synagouge if he was working. But that's a special VI>situation. As a general rule, I feel that men should wear one when VI>they come to a Jewish prayer service. Orthodox Jews see a yarmulka as a religious article. I really don't understand why a non Jew should wear one. The worker who does not wear one is not running around working. He is just there in case something goes wrong. The non Jew is not there for the prayer service. He is there to observe the prayer service. BTW women only cover their head if they are married. These same women will keep their head covered outside of shul as well as in shul. Women who are not married do not cover their head in shul. Date: Tuesday, May 19, 1998 7:36pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746443 To: Nightbird Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746439, Reply to #746432, Reply to #746413, R*) (1 reply) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I understand this, the reason I asked was because I had attended NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>for two friends of mine. One of the women's step sister was ther NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>is Jewish & was wearing a yarmulke. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>This was the first time I had EVER seen a women wearing a yarmul NI>VI>NI>VI>In nonOrthodox Jewish congregrations some women wear yarmulkes. I NI>VI>NI>VI>a tallit (a Jewish prayer shawl) when I pray at morning Jewish NI>VI>NI>VI>services. Traditionally only Jewish men wore a tallit. NI>VI>NI>The person in question prepares children for their bat/bar mizvah. NI>VI>NI>I thought it was funny because the stepsister(my friend) is Catholic & NI>VI>NI>is a teacher at a Catholic school. NI>VI>That IS funny. :) NI>VI>Then one can only assume that this woman wears a yarmulke all the time. NI>VI> She certainly sounds very religiously involved. One of the female NI>VI>assistant rabbis at my synagogue wears a yamulke all the time. NI>VI>I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. I assume that a person NI>VI>has a good heart and means well--unless proven otherwise! NI>Well, if this person is like her step-sister, I know she's a good NI>person. If she helps prepare kids for their bar/bat mitzvah than she must be very, very good. That's a BIG responsibility. :) NI>VI>(Intermediate exchanges ommitted.) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I understand why you sit when it's time to kneel(but then in my NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>we DON'T kneel, we stand during the prayers that most churchs wo NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>kneel at) NI>VI>NI>VI>That's interesting. NI>VI>NI>VI>That kind of variation is permitted by the Brooklyn Arch Diocese? NI>VI>NI>VI>thought that the Arch diocese would more or less lay out a uniform NI>VI>NI>VI>of practice on this matter. But then again, I went with Bob to a L NI>VI>NI>VI>mass once at a Catholic church in Brooklyn--apparently this church NI>VI>NI>VI>Latin masses every week. NI>VI>NI>I'm not too sure but I think the Pastor of the Parish has a choice NI>VI>NI>wheather the people should stand or kneel during the communion prayers NI>VI>NI>I went to a mass on long island yesterday & they kneeled. NI>VI>Yes. And at Bob's church they kneel also. NI>VI>Do you know why the Pastor of your Parish decided not to kneel during NI>VI>the communion prayers? Why, in the first place, do most congregrations NI>VI>kneel during these prayers? NI>VI>This kind of stuff interests me. NI>It's because when we Catholics celebrate communion, we beileve we are NI>receiving the body & blood of Christ. We kneel to show respect but I NI>beileve that when the church first started, people stood during the NI>communion prayers. But now you got me confused. From my memory of the masses that I have attended with Bob the congregration kneeled at several points in the mass. And for some of the prayers the congregration stood. But I could not tell you which prayers led to what response. Perhaps it has something to do with acknowledging that G*d's sovernity? Ie., if you bow before a human king than you bow during those parts of the service that address G*d as the divine king? I know from a Jewish perspective this is frequently the case for prayers in which we bow. NI>VI>Sometimes I go to a Reform synagogue in Brooklyn Heights rather than BJ NI>VI>in Manhattan, which is a Conservative synagogue. I have noticed that NI>VI>at the Reform synagouge they stand for some of the prayers where we sit NI>VI>at BJ. And for some of the prayers that we stand at BJ, they sit at NI>VI>the Reform synagogue. It confuses me sometimes, but I just follow the NI>VI>lead of the rest of the congregration when I visit the Reform synagogue. NI>VI>NI>I've never been to a latin mass, I would be totally loss. NI>VI>Listen if I wasn't at a total loss, you would be ok. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I also understand your reason for not receiving communion but NI>VI>NI>here's a funny for you. Last year one of my best friends got married NI>VI>NI>I was the maid of honor. There were two Jewish men in the bridal party NI>VI>NI>the priest who said the mass blessed them bt one of the guys NI>VI>NI>brothers(who is Jewish)received because he thought his brother had. NI>VI>NI>VI>As long as people are in good faith try to show respect for the NI>VI>NI>VI>religion of the "host" house of worship is what counts! :) NI>VI>NI>Trust me, they did but it was VERY interesting. NI>VI>Sounds like a sweet little misunderstanding to me. :) NI>Yes, it was a misunderstanding, but it was funny. I hope the Jewish people involved also laughed at their mistake. :) Date: Tuesday, May 19, 1998 7:40pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746444 To: Kkid Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746441, Reply to #746434, Reply to #746421, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>But wasn't the person doing the yelling also wrong? KK>Nope. When someone is taking poison or is doing something that may be KK>harmful, we don't stand on ceremony. We save the individual and tell KK>him to stop. Once he stops you can then start giving reasons. But the person here was not taking poison. He or she was making a mistake. And since the mitzvot only apply to a Jew a nonJew does not suffer any harm from not following Jewish law. KK>VI>According to the concept of "lashon ha-ra" or "the evil tongue" you KK>VI>aren't supposed to cause embarsement to another human being by verbally KK>VI>reprimanding them. KK>VI>In this kind of situation, if you catch someone making a mistake, you KK>VI>should approach the person making the mistake and quietly inform them KK>VI>of their error. KK> [A KK>If the person has already erred then you are correct. Regarding your KK>point about causing embarrassment, it is actually permitted and if it KK>will help cause the other individual to stop. No, I disagree. I think the most important rule is to respect the dignity of the other person. I don't think you can have a positive result from causing another human being embarsement in this kind of situation. . Indeed, in the end it can cause a person to build up hatred and resentment for the Jewish religion. Date: Tuesday, May 19, 1998 7:48pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746445 To: Kkid Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746442, Reply to #746435, Reply to #746423, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>But what makes a yarmulke an article of Jewish clothing? Religious KK>VI>Muslim men wear a head covering that looks virtually identical to a KK>VI>yarmulke. KK>Virtually identical does not make it identical. I would never have a KK>problem discerning between a yarmulka and a Muslim head covering. You wouldn't have trouble picking out the black yarmulkas that you see at your synagogue. But at a nonOrthodox synagouge you might have trouble distinguishing a yarmulka from a Muslim head covering. I am thinking specifically of the multi-colored Bukharian yarmulkas that are EXTREMELY popular among nonOrthodox Jews. KK>VI>BTW, I wouldn't find it offensive for a nonJewish male not to wear a KK>VI>yarmulke inside a synagouge if he was working. But that's a special KK>VI>situation. As a general rule, I feel that men should wear one when KK>VI>they come to a Jewish prayer service. KK>Orthodox Jews see a yarmulka as a religious article. I really don't KK>understand why a non Jew should wear one. The worker who does not wear KK>one is not running around working. He is just there in case something KK>goes wrong. The non Jew is not there for the prayer service. He is there KK>to observe the prayer service. KK>BTW women only cover their head if they are married. These same women KK>will keep their head covered outside of shul as well as in shul. Women KK>who are not married do not cover their head in shul. At BJ very few women wear any head coverings of any kind. A few women wear yarmulkas. A few of the older women wear the 'dollies' that I remember from my childhood. Date: Wednesday, May 20, 1998 11:49am Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 746452 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746443, Reply to #746439, Reply to #746432, R*) (1 reply) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I understand this, the reason I asked was because I had atten VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>for two friends of mine. One of the women's step sister was t VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>is Jewish & was wearing a yarmulke. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>This was the first time I had EVER seen a women wearing a yar VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>In nonOrthodox Jewish congregrations some women wear yarmulkes. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>a tallit (a Jewish prayer shawl) when I pray at morning Jewish VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>services. Traditionally only Jewish men wore a tallit. VI>NI>VI>NI>The person in question prepares children for their bat/bar mizvah. VI>NI>VI>NI>I thought it was funny because the stepsister(my friend) is Catholi VI>NI>VI>NI>is a teacher at a Catholic school. VI>NI>VI>That IS funny. :) VI>NI>VI>Then one can only assume that this woman wears a yarmulke all the time VI>NI>VI> She certainly sounds very religiously involved. One of the female VI>NI>VI>assistant rabbis at my synagogue wears a yamulke all the time. VI>NI>VI>I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. I assume that a perso VI>NI>VI>has a good heart and means well--unless proven otherwise! VI>NI>Well, if this person is like her step-sister, I know she's a good VI>NI>person. VI>If she helps prepare kids for their bar/bat mitzvah than she must be VI>very, very good. That's a BIG responsibility. :) I know but I've always thought it curious that the two sisters are diffrent relgious & that they more or less teach the same things. You see, my friend prepares children for their first Communion & Penance. VI>NI>VI>(Intermediate exchanges ommitted.) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I understand why you sit when it's time to kneel(but then in VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>we DON'T kneel, we stand during the prayers that most churchs VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>kneel at) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>That's interesting. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>That kind of variation is permitted by the Brooklyn Arch Diocese VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>thought that the Arch diocese would more or less lay out a unifo VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>of practice on this matter. But then again, I went with Bob to VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>mass once at a Catholic church in Brooklyn--apparently this chur VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Latin masses every week. VI>NI>VI>NI>I'm not too sure but I think the Pastor of the Parish has a choice VI>NI>VI>NI>wheather the people should stand or kneel during the communion pray VI>NI>VI>NI>I went to a mass on long island yesterday & they kneeled. VI>NI>VI>Yes. And at Bob's church they kneel also. VI>NI>VI>Do you know why the Pastor of your Parish decided not to kneel during VI>NI>VI>the communion prayers? Why, in the first place, do most congregration VI>NI>VI>kneel during these prayers? VI>NI>VI>This kind of stuff interests me. VI>NI>It's because when we Catholics celebrate communion, we beileve we are VI>NI>receiving the body & blood of Christ. We kneel to show respect but I VI>NI>beileve that when the church first started, people stood during the VI>NI>communion prayers. VI>But now you got me confused. From my memory of the masses that I have VI>attended with Bob the congregration kneeled at several points in the VI>mass. VI>And for some of the prayers the congregration stood. But I could not VI>tell you which prayers led to what response. VI>Perhaps it has something to do with acknowledging that G*d's sovernity? VI> Ie., if you bow before a human king than you bow during those parts VI>of the service that address G*d as the divine king? I know from a VI>Jewish perspective this is frequently the case for prayers in which we VI>bow. Usually, the congregration will kneel during the Communion prayers & sometimes for different blessings. VI>NI>VI>Sometimes I go to a Reform synagogue in Brooklyn Heights rather than B VI>NI>VI>in Manhattan, which is a Conservative synagogue. I have noticed that VI>NI>VI>at the Reform synagouge they stand for some of the prayers where we si VI>NI>VI>at BJ. And for some of the prayers that we stand at BJ, they sit at VI>NI>VI>the Reform synagogue. It confuses me sometimes, but I just follow the VI>NI>VI>lead of the rest of the congregration when I visit the Reform synagogu VI>NI>VI>NI>I've never been to a latin mass, I would be totally loss. VI>NI>VI>Listen if I wasn't at a total loss, you would be ok. :) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I also understand your reason for not receiving communion but VI>NI>VI>NI>here's a funny for you. Last year one of my best friends got marr VI>NI>VI>NI>I was the maid of honor. There were two Jewish men in the bridal pa VI>NI>VI>NI>the priest who said the mass blessed them bt one of the guys VI>NI>VI>NI>brothers(who is Jewish)received because he thought his brother had. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>As long as people are in good faith try to show respect for the VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>religion of the "host" house of worship is what counts! :) VI>NI>VI>NI>Trust me, they did but it was VERY interesting. VI>NI>VI>Sounds like a sweet little misunderstanding to me. :) VI>NI>Yes, it was a misunderstanding, but it was funny. VI>I hope the Jewish people involved also laughed at their mistake. :) Well, the person in question didn't understand what he did wrong but the men in the bridal party who are Jewish hang out with Catolics & more or less knew what went wrong. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ #30-3771: Blow your mind. Smoke gunpowder. - Marcos Della Date: Wednesday, May 20, 1998 9:06pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 746453 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746444, Reply to #746441, Reply to #746434, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>VI>But wasn't the person doing the yelling also wrong? VI>KK>Nope. When someone is taking poison or is doing something that may be VI>KK>harmful, we don't stand on ceremony. We save the individual and tell VI>KK>him to stop. Once he stops you can then start giving reasons. VI>But the person here was not taking poison. He or she was making a VI>mistake. And since the mitzvot only apply to a Jew a nonJew does not VI>suffer any harm from not following Jewish law. Vida, that is the point! The individual who did the yelling thought that he was stopping a Jew from committing a transgression. And to Orthodox Jews, a transgression IS like taking a poison EVEN if you have done so accidentally. VI>KK>VI>According to the concept of "lashon ha-ra" or "the evil tongue" you VI>KK>VI>aren't supposed to cause embarsement to another human being by verball VI>KK>If the person has already erred then you are correct. Regarding your BI>KK>point about causing embarrassment, it is actually permitted and if it VI>KK>will help cause the other individual to stop. VI>No, I disagree. I think the most important rule is to respect the VI>dignity of the other person. I don't think you can have a positive VI>result from causing another human being embarsement in this kind of VI>situation. . Indeed, in the end it can cause a person to build up VI>hatred and resentment for the Jewish religion. If you know for a fact that chastising an individual will not help then you are not required to do it. If you are putting yourself in danger by chastising an individual then you are not required to do it. In other cases you are required to do it. Again, it has nothing to do with feelings. It is simply the way the commandment of giving "mussar" chastisement is defined. I even recall the statement that IF causing embarrassment will ensure that the individual cease a certain incorrect behavior, then by all means embarrass that individual. Date: Wednesday, May 20, 1998 9:10pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 746454 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746445, Reply to #746442, Reply to #746435, R*) (1 reply) VI>You wouldn't have trouble picking out the black yarmulkas that you see VI>at your synagogue. But at a nonOrthodox synagouge you might have VI>trouble distinguishing a yarmulka from a Muslim head covering. I am VI>thinking specifically of the multi-colored Bukharian yarmulkas that are VI>EXTREMELY popular among nonOrthodox Jews. VI> Nope, not everyone in my shul wears a black yarmulka, nor are all yarmulkas of the same size or type of material. But you are correct, only children would wear multicolored ones. VI>At BJ very few women wear any head coverings of any kind. A few women VI>wear yarmulkas. A few of the older women wear the 'dollies' that I VI>remember from my childhood. Do married women cover their heads while in shul? If not, why should they be different than men in this respect? Date: Thursday, May 21, 1998 7:20am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746457 To: Nightbird Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746452, Reply to #746443, Reply to #746439, R*) (1 reply) NI>VI>NI>Well, if this person is like her step-sister, I know she's a good NI>VI>NI>person. NI>VI>If she helps prepare kids for their bar/bat mitzvah than she must be NI>VI>very, very good. That's a BIG responsibility. :) NI>I know but I've always thought it curious that the two sisters are NI>diffrent relgious & that they more or less teach the same things. You NI>see, my friend prepares children for their first Communion & Penance. No, it's not so strange. The two sisters ARE teaching the same thing. I personally believe that Jesus was a great rabbi who was sent down to earth to teach the lessons of Torah to the gentile nations. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>(Intermediate exchanges ommitted.) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I understand why you sit when it's time to kneel(but then NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>we DON'T kneel, we stand during the prayers that most chur NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>kneel at) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>That's interesting. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>That kind of variation is permitted by the Brooklyn Arch Dioc NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>thought that the Arch diocese would more or less lay out a un NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>of practice on this matter. But then again, I went with Bob NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>mass once at a Catholic church in Brooklyn--apparently this c NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Latin masses every week. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I'm not too sure but I think the Pastor of the Parish has a choi NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>wheather the people should stand or kneel during the communion p NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I went to a mass on long island yesterday & they kneeled. NI>VI>NI>VI>Yes. And at Bob's church they kneel also. NI>VI>NI>VI>Do you know why the Pastor of your Parish decided not to kneel duri NI>VI>NI>VI>the communion prayers? Why, in the first place, do most congregrat NI>VI>NI>VI>kneel during these prayers? NI>VI>NI>VI>This kind of stuff interests me. NI>VI>NI>It's because when we Catholics celebrate communion, we beileve we are NI>VI>NI>receiving the body & blood of Christ. We kneel to show respect but I NI>VI>NI>beileve that when the church first started, people stood during the NI>VI>NI>communion prayers. NI>VI>But now you got me confused. From my memory of the masses that I have NI>VI>attended with Bob the congregration kneeled at several points in the NI>VI>mass. NI>VI>And for some of the prayers the congregration stood. But I could not NI>VI>tell you which prayers led to what response. NI>VI>Perhaps it has something to do with acknowledging that G*d's sovernity? NI>VI> Ie., if you bow before a human king than you bow during those parts NI>VI>of the service that address G*d as the divine king? I know from a NI>VI>Jewish perspective this is frequently the case for prayers in which we NI>VI>bow. NI>Usually, the congregration will kneel during the Communion prayers & NI>sometimes for different blessings. There's more than one Communion prayer in a mass? And for which blessings do they kneel? NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I also understand your reason for not receiving communion NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>here's a funny for you. Last year one of my best friends got m NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I was the maid of honor. There were two Jewish men in the bridal NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>the priest who said the mass blessed them bt one of the guys NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>brothers(who is Jewish)received because he thought his brother h NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>As long as people are in good faith try to show respect for t NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>religion of the "host" house of worship is what counts! :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Trust me, they did but it was VERY interesting. NI>VI>NI>VI>Sounds like a sweet little misunderstanding to me. :) NI>VI>NI>Yes, it was a misunderstanding, but it was funny. NI>VI>I hope the Jewish people involved also laughed at their mistake. :) NI>Well, the person in question didn't understand what he did wrong but the NI>men in the bridal party who are Jewish hang out with Catolics & more or NI>less knew what went wrong. NI>--- So hopefully they explained the error to this gentleman in a friendly fahion. :) Date: Thursday, May 21, 1998 7:25am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746458 To: Kkid Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746453, Reply to #746444, Reply to #746441, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>KK>VI>But wasn't the person doing the yelling also wrong? KK>VI>KK>Nope. When someone is taking poison or is doing something that may be KK>VI>KK>harmful, we don't stand on ceremony. We save the individual and tell KK>VI>KK>him to stop. Once he stops you can then start giving reasons. KK>VI>But the person here was not taking poison. He or she was making a KK>VI>mistake. And since the mitzvot only apply to a Jew a nonJew does not KK>VI>suffer any harm from not following Jewish law. KK>Vida, that is the point! The individual who did the yelling thought that KK>he was stopping a Jew from committing a transgression. And to Orthodox KK>Jews, a transgression IS like taking a poison EVEN if you have done so KK>accidentally. Hmm, I wonder if that's really true. I can usually spot a frum Jew when I see one. Did the person making the error really dress in the manner of an Orthodox Jewish male? KK>VI>KK>VI>According to the concept of "lashon ha-ra" or "the evil tongue" yo KK>VI>KK>VI>aren't supposed to cause embarsement to another human being by verb KK>VI>KK>If the person has already erred then you are correct. Regarding your KK>BI>KK>point about causing embarrassment, it is actually permitted and if it KK>VI>KK>will help cause the other individual to stop. KK>VI>No, I disagree. I think the most important rule is to respect the KK>VI>dignity of the other person. I don't think you can have a positive KK>VI>result from causing another human being embarsement in this kind of KK>VI>situation. . Indeed, in the end it can cause a person to build up KK>VI>hatred and resentment for the Jewish religion. KK>If you know for a fact that chastising an individual will not help then KK>you are not required to do it. If you are putting yourself in danger by KK>chastising an individual then you are not required to do it. In other KK>cases you are required to do it. Again, it has nothing to do with KK>feelings. It is simply the way the commandment of giving "mussar" KK>chastisement is defined. KK>I even recall the statement that IF causing embarrassment will ensure KK>that the individual cease a certain incorrect behavior, then by all KK>means embarrass that individual. How can you ever know in advance that a gentle approach wouldn't work? To assume causing embarssment would ensure the individual cease a certain inccorrect behavior is playing god in my opinion. Date: Thursday, May 21, 1998 7:33am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746459 To: Kkid Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746454, Reply to #746445, Reply to #746442, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>You wouldn't have trouble picking out the black yarmulkas that you see KK>VI>at your synagogue. But at a nonOrthodox synagouge you might have KK>VI>trouble distinguishing a yarmulka from a Muslim head covering. I am KK>VI>thinking specifically of the multi-colored Bukharian yarmulkas that are KK>VI>EXTREMELY popular among nonOrthodox Jews. KK>VI> KK>Nope, not everyone in my shul wears a black yarmulka, nor are all KK>yarmulkas of the same size or type of material. But you are correct, KK>only children would wear multicolored ones. Not so at BJ! Almost all the "personal" yarmulkes are multicolored. The only people who wear one colored yarmulkes are the people who "borrow" one of the synagogue's yarmulkes when they enter the sanctuary--and these yarmulkes are white or blue. :) KK>VI>At BJ very few women wear any head coverings of any kind. A few women KK>VI>wear yarmulkas. A few of the older women wear the 'dollies' that I KK>VI>remember from my childhood. KK>Do married women cover their heads while in shul? If not, why should KK>they be different than men in this respect? Generally married women don't cover their heads. I personally think it is strange that most women don't cover their heads. I think that all people should do so, regardless of their marital status or whatever. It is possible that the fact that most women don't cover their heads is a rebellion against the tradition that married women cover their heads while single women do not cover their head. BJ is a "fully equalatarian" synagogue--so any kind of distinction like that would be very much against the ethos of the place. And as you probably figured out by now, the fact that BJ is "fully equalartarian" is one of the main reasons why I go to the BJ. That and the music, of course! :) Date: Thursday, May 21, 1998 11:56am Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 746462 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746457, Reply to #746452, Reply to #746443, R*) (1 reply) VI>NI>VI>NI>Well, if this person is like her step-sister, I know she's a good VI>NI>VI>NI>person. VI>NI>VI>If she helps prepare kids for their bar/bat mitzvah than she must be VI>NI>VI>very, very good. That's a BIG responsibility. :) VI>NI>I know but I've always thought it curious that the two sisters are VI>NI>diffrent relgious & that they more or less teach the same things. You VI>NI>see, my friend prepares children for their first Communion & Penance. VI>No, it's not so strange. The two sisters ARE teaching the same thing. VI> I personally believe that Jesus was a great rabbi who was sent down to VI>earth to teach the lessons of Torah to the gentile nations. :) I agree with you to a certain point. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>(Intermediate exchanges ommitted.) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I understand why you sit when it's time to kneel(but th VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>we DON'T kneel, we stand during the prayers that most c VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>kneel at) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>That's interesting. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>That kind of variation is permitted by the Brooklyn Arch D VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>thought that the Arch diocese would more or less lay out a VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>of practice on this matter. But then again, I went with B VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>mass once at a Catholic church in Brooklyn--apparently thi VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Latin masses every week. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I'm not too sure but I think the Pastor of the Parish has a c VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>wheather the people should stand or kneel during the communio VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I went to a mass on long island yesterday & they kneeled. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Yes. And at Bob's church they kneel also. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Do you know why the Pastor of your Parish decided not to kneel d VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>the communion prayers? Why, in the first place, do most congreg VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>kneel during these prayers? VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>This kind of stuff interests me. VI>NI>VI>NI>It's because when we Catholics celebrate communion, we beileve we a VI>NI>VI>NI>receiving the body & blood of Christ. We kneel to show respect but VI>NI>VI>NI>beileve that when the church first started, people stood during the VI>NI>VI>NI>communion prayers. VI>NI>VI>But now you got me confused. From my memory of the masses that I have VI>NI>VI>attended with Bob the congregration kneeled at several points in the VI>NI>VI>mass. VI>NI>VI>And for some of the prayers the congregration stood. But I could not VI>NI>VI>tell you which prayers led to what response. VI>NI>VI>Perhaps it has something to do with acknowledging that G*d's sovernity VI>NI>VI> Ie., if you bow before a human king than you bow during those parts VI>NI>VI>of the service that address G*d as the divine king? I know from a VI>NI>VI>Jewish perspective this is frequently the case for prayers in which we VI>NI>VI>bow. VI>NI>Usually, the congregration will kneel during the Communion prayers & VI>NI>sometimes for different blessings. VI>There's more than one Communion prayer in a mass? And for which VI>blessings do they kneel? There is one long prayer broken into various parts. When we have Good Friday & when new Cathlics come into the church. There are other but they don't come to mind right now. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I also understand your reason for not receiving communi VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>here's a funny for you. Last year one of my best friends go VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I was the maid of honor. There were two Jewish men in the bri VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>the priest who said the mass blessed them bt one of the guys VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>brothers(who is Jewish)received because he thought his brothe VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>As long as people are in good faith try to show respect fo VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>religion of the "host" house of worship is what counts! : VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Trust me, they did but it was VERY interesting. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Sounds like a sweet little misunderstanding to me. :) VI>NI>VI>NI>Yes, it was a misunderstanding, but it was funny. VI>NI>VI>I hope the Jewish people involved also laughed at their mistake. :) VI>NI>Well, the person in question didn't understand what he did wrong but the VI>NI>men in the bridal party who are Jewish hang out with Catolics & more or VI>NI>less knew what went wrong. VI>NI>--- VI>So hopefully they explained the error to this gentleman in a friendly VI>fahion. :) Yes, but the person in question was being very annoying that day. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Cowboys can be deranged Date: Thursday, May 21, 1998 9:14pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 746463 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746458, Reply to #746453, Reply to #746444, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>Vida, that is the point! The individual who did the yelling thought that VI>KK>he was stopping a Jew from committing a transgression. And to Orthodox VI>KK>Jews, a transgression IS like taking a poison EVEN if you have done so VI>KK>accidentally. VI>Hmm, I wonder if that's really true. I can usually spot a frum Jew VI>when I see one. Did the person making the error really dress in the VI>manner of an Orthodox Jewish male? Shall we pursue this? :-) How does an orthodox Jewish male dress? Please take my word for it. You'd have a hard time figuring out who is the orthodox Jew. Dress will not do it. Some orthodox Jews wear hats and some don't. Some wear knitted yarmulkas, some wear velvet ones. These yarmulkas come in all sizes. Some wear black suits, others wear green suits. Some do not wear suits at all. Some wear white shirts and other don't. And their noses and ears don't look alike either. And they walk and talk almost like other individuals. What would you have said had I made a statement that I can spot a gay individual when I see one :-) VI>KK>If you know for a fact that chastising an individual will not help then VI>KK>you are not required to do it. If you are putting yourself in danger by VI>KK>chastising an individual then you are not required to do it. In other VI>KK>cases you are required to do it. Again, it has nothing to do with VI>KK>feelings. It is simply the way the commandment of giving "mussar" VI>KK>chastisement is defined. VI>KK>I even recall the statement that IF causing embarrassment will ensure VI>KK>that the individual cease a certain incorrect behavior, then by all VI>KK>means embarrass that individual. VI>How can you ever know in advance that a gentle approach wouldn't work? VI>To assume causing embarssment would ensure the individual cease a VI>certain inccorrect behavior is playing god in my opinion. In the case that I cited there was no embarrassment. It was done in the same manner as when a parent would see a child about to cross into traffic and would yell out stop, or something along those lines. By yelling I did not mean that this individual was berated in shul. Date: Thursday, May 21, 1998 9:18pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 746464 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746459, Reply to #746454, Reply to #746445, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>VI>At BJ very few women wear any head coverings of any kind. A few women VI>KK>VI>wear yarmulkas. A few of the older women wear the 'dollies' that I VI>KK>VI>remember from my childhood. VI>KK>Do married women cover their heads while in shul? If not, why should VI>KK>they be different than men in this respect? VI>Generally married women don't cover their heads. I personally think it VI>is strange that most women don't cover their heads. I think that all VI>people should do so, regardless of their marital status or whatever. VI>It is possible that the fact that most women don't cover their heads is VI> a rebellion against the tradition that married women cover their heads VI>while single women do not cover their head. BJ is a "fully VI>equalatarian" synagogue--so any kind of distinction like that would be VI>very much against the ethos of the place. And as you probably figured VI>out by now, the fact that BJ is "fully equalartarian" is one of the VI>main reasons why I go to the BJ. That and the music, of course! :) Gotcha. But again, if it is a matter of respect for a male to cover his head in a shul why is the same not true for a woman? Perhaps you can ask the rabbi at BJ the next time you are there. Date: Thursday, May 21, 1998 11:23pm Forum: Theology From: Steve C Msg#: 746466 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746406, Reply to #746397, Reply to #746385, R*) (1 reply) VI>NI>I understand why you sit when it's time to kneel(but then in my church VI>NI>we DON'T kneel, we stand during the prayers that most churchs would VI>NI>kneel at) VI>That's interesting. VI>That kind of variation is permitted by the Brooklyn Arch Diocese? I VI>thought that the Arch diocese would more or less lay out a uniform form VI>of practice on this matter. But then again, I went with Bob to a Latin VI>mass once at a Catholic church in Brooklyn--apparently this church has VI>Latin masses every week. Actually kneeling during the Eucharistic Prayer is a more recent addition. As a child we used to stand during the entire prayer and if you sat or kneeled it was considered disrespectful. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Landscapers can be deflowered Date: Friday, May 22, 1998 1:57am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746469 To: Nightbird Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746462, Reply to #746457, Reply to #746452, R*) (1 reply) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Well, if this person is like her step-sister, I know she's a goo NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>person. NI>VI>NI>VI>If she helps prepare kids for their bar/bat mitzvah than she must b NI>VI>NI>VI>very, very good. That's a BIG responsibility. :) NI>VI>NI>I know but I've always thought it curious that the two sisters are NI>VI>NI>diffrent relgious & that they more or less teach the same things. You NI>VI>NI>see, my friend prepares children for their first Communion & Penance. NI>VI>No, it's not so strange. The two sisters ARE teaching the same thing. NI>VI> I personally believe that Jesus was a great rabbi who was sent down to NI>VI>earth to teach the lessons of Torah to the gentile nations. :) NI>I agree with you to a certain point. Of course you only agree with me to a certain point. You are a Christian, I a Jew. But I think I give Jesus as much credit as you possibly can, and still remain on the Jewish side of the fence, so to speak. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>(Intermediate exchanges ommitted.) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I understand why you sit when it's time to kneel(but NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>we DON'T kneel, we stand during the prayers that mos NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>kneel at) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>That's interesting. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>That kind of variation is permitted by the Brooklyn Arc NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>thought that the Arch diocese would more or less lay ou NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>of practice on this matter. But then again, I went wit NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>mass once at a Catholic church in Brooklyn--apparently NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Latin masses every week. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I'm not too sure but I think the Pastor of the Parish has NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>wheather the people should stand or kneel during the commu NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I went to a mass on long island yesterday & they kneeled. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Yes. And at Bob's church they kneel also. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Do you know why the Pastor of your Parish decided not to knee NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>the communion prayers? Why, in the first place, do most cong NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>kneel during these prayers? NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>This kind of stuff interests me. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>It's because when we Catholics celebrate communion, we beileve w NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>receiving the body & blood of Christ. We kneel to show respect NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>beileve that when the church first started, people stood during NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>communion prayers. NI>VI>NI>VI>But now you got me confused. From my memory of the masses that I h NI>VI>NI>VI>attended with Bob the congregration kneeled at several points in th NI>VI>NI>VI>mass. NI>VI>NI>VI>And for some of the prayers the congregration stood. But I could n NI>VI>NI>VI>tell you which prayers led to what response. NI>VI>NI>VI>Perhaps it has something to do with acknowledging that G*d's sovern NI>VI>NI>VI> Ie., if you bow before a human king than you bow during those par NI>VI>NI>VI>of the service that address G*d as the divine king? I know from a NI>VI>NI>VI>Jewish perspective this is frequently the case for prayers in which NI>VI>NI>VI>bow. NI>VI>NI>Usually, the congregration will kneel during the Communion prayers & NI>VI>NI>sometimes for different blessings. NI>VI>There's more than one Communion prayer in a mass? And for which NI>VI>blessings do they kneel? NI>There is one long prayer broken into various parts. NI>When we have Good Friday & when new Cathlics come into the church. NI>There are other but they don't come to mind right now. OK, the fact that it is one prayer broken into several parts explains it to me. Is the communion prayer said before people actually go to line up to receive communion? NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I also understand your reason for not receiving comm NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>here's a funny for you. Last year one of my best friends NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I was the maid of honor. There were two Jewish men in the NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>the priest who said the mass blessed them bt one of the gu NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>brothers(who is Jewish)received because he thought his bro NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>As long as people are in good faith try to show respect NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>religion of the "host" house of worship is what counts! NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Trust me, they did but it was VERY interesting. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Sounds like a sweet little misunderstanding to me. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Yes, it was a misunderstanding, but it was funny. NI>VI>NI>VI>I hope the Jewish people involved also laughed at their mistake. : NI>VI>NI>Well, the person in question didn't understand what he did wrong but t NI>VI>NI>men in the bridal party who are Jewish hang out with Catolics & more o NI>VI>NI>less knew what went wrong. NI>VI>NI>--- NI>VI>So hopefully they explained the error to this gentleman in a friendly NI>VI>fahion. :) NI>Yes, but the person in question was being very annoying that day. That's too bad. It's possible he was just not a very nice person. Date: Friday, May 22, 1998 2:10am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746470 To: Kkid Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746463, Reply to #746458, Reply to #746453, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>KK>Vida, that is the point! The individual who did the yelling thought th KK>VI>KK>he was stopping a Jew from committing a transgression. And to Orthodox KK>VI>KK>Jews, a transgression IS like taking a poison EVEN if you have done so KK>VI>KK>accidentally. KK>VI>Hmm, I wonder if that's really true. I can usually spot a frum Jew KK>VI>when I see one. Did the person making the error really dress in the KK>VI>manner of an Orthodox Jewish male? KK>Shall we pursue this? :-) KK>How does an orthodox Jewish male dress? KK>Please take my word for it. You'd have a hard time figuring out who is KK>the orthodox Jew. Dress will not do it. Some orthodox Jews wear hats and KK>some don't. Some wear knitted yarmulkas, some wear velvet ones. These KK>yarmulkas come in all sizes. Some wear black suits, others wear green KK>suits. Some do not wear suits at all. Some wear white shirts and other KK>don't. And their noses and ears don't look alike either. And they walk KK>and talk almost like other individuals. What would you have said had I KK>made a statement that I can spot a gay individual when I see one :-) Yes, I understand that there is a great deal of variety within the Orthodox world. And a great range of "Orthodox Jews" from the "Modern Orthodox" to the strictest sect of hasidim and so forth. But I specifically used the word "frum" in my post to you, not Orthodox. And I used it for a specific reason. In all my exchanges with you I have always had the impression that you are what I would call a "black hat" Orthodox male. And I think you know very well what I mean by that term. It is not meant as any form of disrespect. But it describes a Jewish male who normally wears a dark or black suit, a black yarmulke, and usually a black hat on his head. If I am wrong about this, I am sorry. But I think I am raising a valid point. Ie, that it is unlikely for a "frum" Jew to mistake a nonJew as a Jew simply because the nonJew wears a yarmulke. There are other clues as well. :) KK>VI>KK>If you know for a fact that chastising an individual will not help the KK>VI>KK>you are not required to do it. If you are putting yourself in danger b KK>VI>KK>chastising an individual then you are not required to do it. In other KK>VI>KK>cases you are required to do it. Again, it has nothing to do with KK>VI>KK>feelings. It is simply the way the commandment of giving "mussar" KK>VI>KK>chastisement is defined. KK>VI>KK>I even recall the statement that IF causing embarrassment will ensure KK>VI>KK>that the individual cease a certain incorrect behavior, then by all KK>VI>KK>means embarrass that individual. KK>VI>How can you ever know in advance that a gentle approach wouldn't work? KK>VI>To assume causing embarssment would ensure the individual cease a KK>VI>certain inccorrect behavior is playing god in my opinion. KK>In the case that I cited there was no embarrassment. It was done in the KK>same manner as when a parent would see a child about to cross into KK>traffic and would yell out stop, or something along those lines. By KK>yelling I did not mean that this individual was berated in shul. How do you know that the person being yelled out didn't feel embarsed? In my opionion to treat an adult human being as if he/she is a child is to put that person in an inherently embarsing situation. I think the commandment to "always remember that you were foreigners in the land of Egypt" prevents Jews from treating another human being in this fashion, unless it is truly a matter of life or death. Date: Friday, May 22, 1998 2:18am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746471 To: Kkid Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746464, Reply to #746459, Reply to #746454, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>KK>VI>At BJ very few women wear any head coverings of any kind. A few wo KK>VI>KK>VI>wear yarmulkas. A few of the older women wear the 'dollies' that I KK>VI>KK>VI>remember from my childhood. KK>VI>KK>Do married women cover their heads while in shul? If not, why should KK>VI>KK>they be different than men in this respect? KK>VI>Generally married women don't cover their heads. I personally think it KK>VI>is strange that most women don't cover their heads. I think that all KK>VI>people should do so, regardless of their marital status or whatever. KK>VI>It is possible that the fact that most women don't cover their heads is KK>VI> a rebellion against the tradition that married women cover their heads KK>VI>while single women do not cover their head. BJ is a "fully KK>VI>equalatarian" synagogue--so any kind of distinction like that would be KK>VI>very much against the ethos of the place. And as you probably figured KK>VI>out by now, the fact that BJ is "fully equalartarian" is one of the KK>VI>main reasons why I go to the BJ. That and the music, of course! :) KK>Gotcha. KK>But again, if it is a matter of respect for a male to cover his head in KK>a shul why is the same not true for a woman? Perhaps you can ask the KK>rabbi at BJ the next time you are there. Well the female assistant rabbis and prayer leaders at BJ all wear head coverings. It's the members of the congregration that do not. It is my undrestanding that in order for a female to enroll in the Conservative seminary, JTS, as either a cantorial student or a rabbinical student she must agree to be bound by all the time bound mitzvot. So at morning services, the female prayer leaders and assistant rabbis wear a tallit and a tefflin, together with a yarmulkes. You see very few men wearing a tefflin at BJ, btw. The "official" people yes, but only a scattered few men among the congregration. I have never heard any of the rabbis or assistant rabbis say anything at the services regarding the general practice of women not wearing a head covering. All I can say to you is that I think you are right. And that I plan to bring with me my personal yarmulke to BJ and start weering it on a regular basis. :) Date: Friday, May 22, 1998 2:26am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746472 To: Steve C Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746466, Reply to #746406, Reply to #746397, R*) SC>VI>NI>I understand why you sit when it's time to kneel(but then in my church SC>VI>NI>we DON'T kneel, we stand during the prayers that most churchs would SC>VI>NI>kneel at) SC>VI>That's interesting. SC>VI>That kind of variation is permitted by the Brooklyn Arch Diocese? I SC>VI>thought that the Arch diocese would more or less lay out a uniform form SC>VI>of practice on this matter. But then again, I went with Bob to a Latin SC>VI>mass once at a Catholic church in Brooklyn--apparently this church has SC>VI>Latin masses every week. SC>Actually kneeling during the Eucharistic Prayer is a more recent SC>addition. SC>As a child we used to stand during the entire prayer and if you sat or SC>kneeled it was considered disrespectful. I don't know your exact age Steve. Were you a child before the reforms of Vatican 2 were implemented? Do you have a personal memory of the mass being recited in Latin? As a child I grew up in a largely Catholic neighborhood in Queens. So I remember clearly when the Church in the neighorhood changed from the Latin mass to the English mass. But things are so different now. A lot of the kids in the housing project were I lived went to the local parochial school. And almost all of the kids went to the same parachial school for "release time". So I heard plenty of horror stories about the nun teachers--nuns wacking kids on their hands with rulers, nuns wacking kids on their posteriors with rulers, that kind of thing. Bob sends his kid to a Catholic school. And I talk to her a lot about her school. She has never told me anything bad about her teachers. And most of her teachers are lay teachers, not nuns. Date: Friday, May 22, 1998 7:07am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746476 To: Kkid Re: More fuel for the fire (1 reply) I received this d'vrai torah on one of my e mail lists. I get so many e mail lists that heaven knows which one it was posted on. I think it adds some fuel to my fire to my argument that you have to treat other human beings with kindness and gentleness, unless an eminent life threatening situation is at hand. I believe that this d'vrai torah was probably written by some one on the "Orthodox continum"--meaning by an Orthodox Jew. The basis for this belief is that the article refers to G-d as "HaShem". I have NEVER seen a nonOrthodox Jew make use of that usage. Indeed, there was an op ed piece in the current issue by "Moment" by Dennis Prager urging Orthodox Jews to stop making use of this way to refer to G-d--because it creates a rift in the Jewish people. (I think, on the other hand, that this just REFLECTS a rift that actually exists.) One my point, truth in advertisng so to speak. The author of this post went on to say at a later part of this d'vrai torah that the "neighbor" in this Torah portion only applies to Jewish neighbors and therefore the command to treat other human beings with respect only applies to other Jews. Needless to say most "Liberal" Jews totally reject this position. And needless to say I totally reject this position. Hamazgan #26 Behar - Bechukotai in Galut - Only Bechukotai in Israel By Daniel Feldman Contents Divrei Torah Bizechut Avot - Chapters of Our Fathers Humor Section The main focus of this week's Hamazgan will be on the aspects of love and unity. Divrei Torah "You shall sound a broken blast on the shofar in the seventh month on the tenth day. On Yom Kippur you shall sound the shofar throughout your land." Leviticus 25:9 "In this Jubilee year, every man shall return to his ancestral heritage (Heb. - 'achuzato' ") 25:13 "One person shall not oppress his neighbor and you shall fear your God. For I am Hashem, your God. You shall perform all my decrees (Heb. - chukim), and you shall watch my ordinances (Heb. - mishpatai) and perform them. Then you shall dwell securely on your land." 25:17 - 18 I quoted a number of verses to tie in the various important laws and principles that the Torah says about the Jubilee year which occurs every 50 years. Israel has just celebrated its Jubilee year marking its independence. We have been reading in various newspapers as well as viewing the various discussions in chevruta both sides of the story. Is it or is it not something to celebrate? Let's view the various things we can learn directly from the Torah on how we should behave on the Jubilee: The first verse says that we are to sound the shofar specifically on Yom Kippur. Why this day of the year? Wouldn't we think we would want a huge celebration with fireworks and big parties with dancing (the type that was done during the time of the Bet Mikdash; not like "Jubilee Bells")? The Torah teaches us that Yom Kippur is the holiest day of the year. In view of the other laws mentioned about the Jubilee, we see one general concept throughout. That is the concept of complete total freedom. Slaves are freed. We cannot oppress our neighbor. Debts are released and annulled. All land goes back to the original landowner. All of these convey a message of freedom. Likewise, on Yom Kippur, we are freed of the yoke of our sins that weigh upon us the rest of the year. We do not eat, so we are free from the burdens of the physical needs by consuming food. On Yom Kippur, we can concentrate on being as angels and we achieve the highest sense of spirituality. The shofar blast calls us to come together as one people with one heart and one mind. When we all gather together on Yom Kippur and proclaim God's kingship on us and on all the Earth, THIS is the most appropriate day of the year to proclaim the Jubilee. The second verse uses the term "achuza" which originates from the verb "achaz" meaning to "grab hold of". Someone who obtains a land possession does so by "grabbing hold of" the land (see the various laws in the Talmud about this. I don't recall, offhand which tractates are the most detailed on this topic.) Also, the land, in a sense, "grasps" the owner, because the owner develops an affinity to it. (Radak quoted in Stone Chumash) The last two verses convey important messages for all of us to inherit and implement daily, particularly in this Jubilee year of Israel. You shall not oppress your neighbor. A similar phrase is used in verse 14 regarding business dealings. Here, the phrase is far more general. Here, it means that one should not oppress his neighbor by harmful speech. One is forbidden to remind his neighbor about his / her past or ancestry when it may be hurtful. One is forbidden to give harmful advice. Notice that regarding anything that deals with such personal matters, the Torah always uses the verse, "You shall fear God" (A similar expression is used in Leviticus 19:14 regarding cursing a deaf person or placing a stumbling block before the blind). Rashi explains that the reason for this stern warning is in case someone reasons, "I had no intention to harm such a person. It was his /her fault / misinterpretation, etc. that caused him / her harm." Therefore the Torah says, "Fear God. I know what your intention really was." Finally, the last verse mentions the specific item that will guarantee our security on the land. It will occur only if everyone adheres to the laws of the Torah. Historically, we see what has happened to Israel and its people time and time again. This cycle has occurred from the time of the prophets until today. When the Jews perform the mitzvot and obey God's commandments, they live in Israel securely and safely. When they stray from it, God strays from us and either does not lend the full support we need or, God forbid, exiles us completely from our land. We must always be aware that God is the one who is given us the land in the first place. He, ultimately, controls our possessions, our parcels, and our placement. This is the primary reason of giving the land a rest every seventh year (and on the 50th year of Jubilee as well.) Similar to our resting every seventh day, we let the land rest every seventh year. Both are acknowledgements that we and the soil itself that we stand on are in the sole control and command of God. Date: Friday, May 22, 1998 12:19pm Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 746478 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746469, Reply to #746462, Reply to #746457, R*) (1 reply) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Well, if this person is like her step-sister, I know she's a VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>person. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>If she helps prepare kids for their bar/bat mitzvah than she mus VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>very, very good. That's a BIG responsibility. :) VI>NI>VI>NI>I know but I've always thought it curious that the two sisters are VI>NI>VI>NI>diffrent relgious & that they more or less teach the same things. VI>NI>VI>NI>see, my friend prepares children for their first Communion & Penanc VI>NI>VI>No, it's not so strange. The two sisters ARE teaching the same thing. VI>NI>VI> I personally believe that Jesus was a great rabbi who was sent down t VI>NI>VI>earth to teach the lessons of Torah to the gentile nations. :) VI>NI>I agree with you to a certain point. VI>Of course you only agree with me to a certain point. You are a VI>Christian, I a Jew. But I think I give Jesus as much credit as you VI>possibly can, and still remain on the Jewish side of the fence, so to VI>speak. :) True VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>(Intermediate exchanges ommitted.) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I understand why you sit when it's time to kneel( VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>we DON'T kneel, we stand during the prayers that VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>kneel at) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>That's interesting. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>That kind of variation is permitted by the Brooklyn VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>thought that the Arch diocese would more or less lay VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>of practice on this matter. But then again, I went VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>mass once at a Catholic church in Brooklyn--apparent VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Latin masses every week. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I'm not too sure but I think the Pastor of the Parish h VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>wheather the people should stand or kneel during the co VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I went to a mass on long island yesterday & they kneele VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Yes. And at Bob's church they kneel also. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Do you know why the Pastor of your Parish decided not to k VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>the communion prayers? Why, in the first place, do most c VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>kneel during these prayers? VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>This kind of stuff interests me. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>It's because when we Catholics celebrate communion, we beilev VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>receiving the body & blood of Christ. We kneel to show respe VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>beileve that when the church first started, people stood duri VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>communion prayers. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>But now you got me confused. From my memory of the masses that VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>attended with Bob the congregration kneeled at several points in VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>mass. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>And for some of the prayers the congregration stood. But I coul VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>tell you which prayers led to what response. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Perhaps it has something to do with acknowledging that G*d's sov VI>NI>VI>NI>VI> Ie., if you bow before a human king than you bow during those VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>of the service that address G*d as the divine king? I know from VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Jewish perspective this is frequently the case for prayers in wh VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>bow. VI>NI>VI>NI>Usually, the congregration will kneel during the Communion prayers VI>NI>VI>NI>sometimes for different blessings. VI>NI>VI>There's more than one Communion prayer in a mass? And for which VI>NI>VI>blessings do they kneel? VI>NI>There is one long prayer broken into various parts. VI>NI>When we have Good Friday & when new Cathlics come into the church. VI>NI>There are other but they don't come to mind right now. VI>OK, the fact that it is one prayer broken into several parts explains it VI>to me. Is the communion prayer said before people actually go to line VI>up to receive communion? Well, it starts after the readings & Gospel(when people bring up the gifts & it ends when people actually line up to receive Communion. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I also understand your reason for not receiving c VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>here's a funny for you. Last year one of my best frie VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I was the maid of honor. There were two Jewish men in t VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>the priest who said the mass blessed them bt one of the VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>brothers(who is Jewish)received because he thought his VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>As long as people are in good faith try to show resp VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>religion of the "host" house of worship is what coun VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Trust me, they did but it was VERY interesting. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Sounds like a sweet little misunderstanding to me. :) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Yes, it was a misunderstanding, but it was funny. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>I hope the Jewish people involved also laughed at their mistake. VI>NI>VI>NI>Well, the person in question didn't understand what he did wrong bu VI>NI>VI>NI>men in the bridal party who are Jewish hang out with Catolics & mor VI>NI>VI>NI>less knew what went wrong. VI>NI>VI>NI>--- VI>NI>VI>So hopefully they explained the error to this gentleman in a friendly VI>NI>VI>fahion. :) VI>NI>Yes, but the person in question was being very annoying that day. VI>That's too bad. It's possible he was just not a very nice person. From what I've been told, he can be VERY annoying but I deal with him because his brother is a friend of mine. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ #30-3771: Biography: One of the terrors of death. Date: Friday, May 22, 1998 4:18pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 746481 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746470, Reply to #746463, Reply to #746458, R*) (1 reply) VI>Yes, I understand that there is a great deal of variety within the VI>Orthodox world. And a great range of "Orthodox Jews" from the "Modern VI>Orthodox" to the strictest sect of hasidim and so forth. But I VI>specifically used the word "frum" in my post to you, not Orthodox. And VI>I used it for a specific reason. In all my exchanges with you I have VI>always had the impression that you are what I would call a "black hat" VI>Orthodox male. And I think you know very well what I mean by that term. VI> It is not meant as any form of disrespect. But it describes a Jewish VI>male who normally wears a dark or black suit, a black yarmulke, and VI>usually a black hat on his head. If I am wrong about this, I am sorry. VI>But I think I am raising a valid point. Ie, that it is unlikely for a VI>"frum" Jew to mistake a nonJew as a Jew simply because the nonJew wears VI>a yarmulke. There are other clues as well. :) In the shul I daven many do not wear hats at all! Black suits are in the minority. My most expensive suit IS black. I prefer wearing my dark gray, teal, or one that leans towards brownish green. The brownish green is my favorite. During the week forget about it. There would be no way for you to guage anything by clothing then. Except that we'd all be wearing yarmulkas. What you described above is the classic description of a Mesivta Bochor. Generally that is how they all dress. Date: Friday, May 22, 1998 4:21pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 746482 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746471, Reply to #746464, Reply to #746459, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>Gotcha. VI>KK>But again, if it is a matter of respect for a male to cover his head in VI>KK>a shul why is the same not true for a woman? Perhaps you can ask the VI>KK>rabbi at BJ the next time you are there. VI>Well the female assistant rabbis and prayer leaders at BJ all wear head VI>coverings. It's the members of the congregration that do not. It is my VI>undrestanding that in order for a female to enroll in the Conservative VI>seminary, JTS, as either a cantorial student or a rabbinical student she VI>must agree to be bound by all the time bound mitzvot. So at morning VI>services, the female prayer leaders and assistant rabbis wear a tallit VI>and a tefflin, together with a yarmulkes. You see very few men wearing VI>a tefflin at BJ, btw. The "official" people yes, but only a scattered VI>few men among the congregration. VI>I have never heard any of the rabbis or assistant rabbis say anything at VI>the services regarding the general practice of women not wearing a head VI>covering. All I can say to you is that I think you are right. And that VI>I plan to bring with me my personal yarmulke to BJ and start weering it VI>on a regular basis. :) My intention was not to get you to wear a yarmulka! :-) According to you the wearing of the yarmulka is not a mitzvah, so it has nothing at all to do with time bound or not time bound. It is simply a matter of respect. Therefore I asked why does a man have to show that respect and not a woman? As far as Orthodox Jews are concerned, only men wear a yarmulka. I do recall once knowing the reason why women don't, but I guess I'll have to ask someone to refresh my memory. Date: Friday, May 22, 1998 4:35pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 746483 To: Vida Re: More fuel for the fire (Reply to #746476) (1 reply) VI>I received this d'vrai torah on one of my e mail lists. I get so many e VI>mail lists that heaven knows which one it was posted on. I think it VI>adds some fuel to my fire to my argument that you have to treat other VI>human beings with kindness and gentleness, unless an eminent life VI>threatening situation is at hand. I believe that this d'vrai torah was VI>probably written by some one on the "Orthodox continum"--meaning by an VI>Orthodox Jew. The basis for this belief is that the article refers to VI>G-d as "HaShem". I have NEVER seen a nonOrthodox Jew make use of that VI>usage. Indeed, there was an op ed piece in the current issue by VI>"Moment" by Dennis Prager urging Orthodox Jews to stop making use of VI>this way to refer to G-d--because it creates a rift in the Jewish VI>people. (I think, on the other hand, that this just REFLECTS a rift VI>that actually exists.) Hmmm... How do non Orthodox Jews refer to Him????????? We use many Hebrew words sprinkled into our everyday language. This is just one of them. I'd ask Dennis Prager to urge the non Orthodox Jews to start using the term HaShem and that way the rift would close as well :-) VI>it or is it not something to celebrate? VI>Let's view the various things we can learn directly VI>from the Torah on VI>how we should behave on the Jubilee: VI>The first verse says that we are to sound the shofar VI>specifically on Yom VI>Kippur. Why this day of the year? Wouldn't we think we VI>would want a huge VI>celebration with fireworks and big parties with VI>dancing (the type that VI>was done during the time of the Bet Mikdash; not like VI>"Jubilee Bells")? VI>The Torah teaches us that Yom Kippur is the holiest VI>day of the year. In VI>view of the other laws mentioned about the Jubilee, we VI>see one general VI>concept throughout. That is the concept of complete VI>total freedom. VI>Slaves are freed. We cannot oppress our neighbor. VI>Debts are released and VI>annulled. All land goes back to the original VI>landowner. All of these VI>convey a message of freedom. Most medrashim say this shows that nothing belongs to us--that all belongs to G-d. He is the one that apportioned everything to the tribes when they entered Israel, and that is how things had to remain. VI>regarding business dealings. Here, the phrase is far VI>more general. Here, VI>it means that one should not oppress his neighbor by VI>harmful speech. One VI[As forbidden to remind his neighbor about his / her VI>past or ancestry VI>when it may be hurtful. One is forbidden to give VI>harmful advice. VI>Notice that regarding anything that deals with such VI>personal matters, VI>the Torah always uses the verse, "You shall fear God" Rashi explains the use of You shall fear G-d in these cases. A human individual can not read minds and may not know how pure or impure your intentions may be. G-d knows. VI>(A similar [A>expression is used in Leviticus 19:14 regarding VI>cursing a deaf person or VI>placing a stumbling block before the blind). Rashi VI>explains that the VI>reason for this stern warning is in case someone VI>reasons, "I had no VI>intention to harm such a person. It was his /her fault VI>/ VI>misinterpretation, etc. that caused him / her harm." VI>Therefore the Torah VI>says, "Fear God. I know what your intention really VI>was." VI>Finally, the last verse mentions the specific item VI>that will guarantee VI>our security on the land. It will occur only if VI>everyone adheres to the VI>laws of the Torah. Historically, we see what has VI>happened to Israel and [B>its people time and time again. This cycle has VI>occurred from the time of VI>the prophets until today. When the Jews perform the VI>mitzvot and obey [B>God's commandments, they live in Israel securely and VI>safely. When they VI>stray from it, God strays from us and either does not VI>lend the full VI>support we need or, God forbid, exiles us completely VI>from our land. VI>We must always be aware that God is the one who is VI>given us the land in VI>the first place. He, ultimately, controls our VI>possessions, our parcels, VI>and our placement. This is the primary reason of VI>giving the land a rest VI>every seventh year (and on the 50th year of Jubilee as VI>well.) Similar to VI>our resting every seventh day, we let the land rest VI>every seventh year. VI>Both are acknowledgements that we and the soil itself VI>that we stand on VI>are in the sole control and command of God. VI> As an aside we are now counting the Sefira--the 49 days to when the Torah was given to us. Orthodox Jews consider these days, days of mourning. It is the period of time when Rabbi Akiva lost all his students. ( I think the number was in the thousands...like maybe even 50,000). Most medrashim say it was because they did not show respect for each other. There was no real unity between them. Now on to mussar--the chastising of someone. We have a commandment to chastise someone whom we see doing wrong. There are many laws regarding this. We do not intentionally chastise someone in order to embarrass that individual. Date: Saturday, May 23, 1998 4:58am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746484 To: Nightbird Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746478, Reply to #746469, Reply to #746462, R*) (1 reply) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Well, if this person is like her step-sister, I know she's NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>person. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>If she helps prepare kids for their bar/bat mitzvah than she NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>very, very good. That's a BIG responsibility. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I know but I've always thought it curious that the two sisters a NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>diffrent relgious & that they more or less teach the same things NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>see, my friend prepares children for their first Communion & Pen NI>VI>NI>VI>No, it's not so strange. The two sisters ARE teaching the same thi NI>VI>NI>VI> I personally believe that Jesus was a great rabbi who was sent dow NI>VI>NI>VI>earth to teach the lessons of Torah to the gentile nations. :) NI>VI>NI>I agree with you to a certain point. NI>VI>Of course you only agree with me to a certain point. You are a NI>VI>Christian, I a Jew. But I think I give Jesus as much credit as you NI>VI>possibly can, and still remain on the Jewish side of the fence, so to NI>VI>speak. :) NI>True The important point is that we respect each other differences. And the common source we share. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>(Intermediate exchanges ommitted.) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I understand why you sit when it's time to kne NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>we DON'T kneel, we stand during the prayers th NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>kneel at) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>That's interesting. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>That kind of variation is permitted by the Brookl NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>thought that the Arch diocese would more or less NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>of practice on this matter. But then again, I we NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>mass once at a Catholic church in Brooklyn--appar NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Latin masses every week. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I'm not too sure but I think the Pastor of the Paris NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>wheather the people should stand or kneel during the NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I went to a mass on long island yesterday & they kne NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Yes. And at Bob's church they kneel also. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Do you know why the Pastor of your Parish decided not t NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>the communion prayers? Why, in the first place, do mos NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>kneel during these prayers? NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>This kind of stuff interests me. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>It's because when we Catholics celebrate communion, we bei NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>receiving the body & blood of Christ. We kneel to show re NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>beileve that when the church first started, people stood d NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>communion prayers. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>But now you got me confused. From my memory of the masses th NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>attended with Bob the congregration kneeled at several points NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>mass. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>And for some of the prayers the congregration stood. But I c NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>tell you which prayers led to what response. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Perhaps it has something to do with acknowledging that G*d's NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI> Ie., if you bow before a human king than you bow during tho NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>of the service that address G*d as the divine king? I know f NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Jewish perspective this is frequently the case for prayers in NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>bow. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Usually, the congregration will kneel during the Communion praye NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>sometimes for different blessings. NI>VI>NI>VI>There's more than one Communion prayer in a mass? And for which NI>VI>NI>VI>blessings do they kneel? NI>VI>NI>There is one long prayer broken into various parts. NI>VI>NI>When we have Good Friday & when new Cathlics come into the church. NI>VI>NI>There are other but they don't come to mind right now. NI>VI>OK, the fact that it is one prayer broken into several parts explains it NI>VI>to me. Is the communion prayer said before people actually go to line NI>VI>up to receive communion? NI>Well, it starts after the readings & Gospel(when people bring up the NI>gifts & it ends when people actually line up to receive Communion. I am not that familiar with the portions of the mass, so I don't quite know what you are talking about. But Bob's daughter could definitely explain it all to me if I asked her. She has been an alter server at her parish church for the past two years. :) NI> VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I also understand your reason for NI>not receiving c VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>here's a funny for you. Last NI>year one of my best frie VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I was the maid of NI>honor. There were two Jewish men in t VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>the priest NI>who said the mass blessed them bt one of the NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>brothers(who is Jewish)received because he NI>thought his NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>As long as people are in good faith try to show r NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>religion of the "host" house of worship is what c NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Trust me, they did but it was VERY interesting. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Sounds like a sweet little misunderstanding to me. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Yes, it was a misunderstanding, but it was funny. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>I hope the Jewish people involved also laughed at their mista NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Well, the person in question didn't understand what he did wrong NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>men in the bridal party who are Jewish hang out with Catolics & NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>less knew what went wrong. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>--- NI>VI>NI>VI>So hopefully they explained the error to this gentleman in a friend NI>VI>NI>VI>fahion. :) NI>VI>NI>Yes, but the person in question was being very annoying that day. NI>VI>That's too bad. It's possible he was just not a very nice person. NI>From what I've been told, he can be VERY annoying but I deal with him NI>because his brother is a friend of mine. You know what they say. You can choose your friends, but not your relatives. I just had a shooting match with my younger sister last night. So I know from annoying siblings. :( Date: Saturday, May 23, 1998 5:00am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746485 To: Kkid Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746481, Reply to #746470, Reply to #746463, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>Yes, I understand that there is a great deal of variety within the KK>VI>Orthodox world. And a great range of "Orthodox Jews" from the "Modern KK>VI>Orthodox" to the strictest sect of hasidim and so forth. But I KK>VI>specifically used the word "frum" in my post to you, not Orthodox. And KK>VI>I used it for a specific reason. In all my exchanges with you I have KK>VI>always had the impression that you are what I would call a "black hat" KK>VI>Orthodox male. And I think you know very well what I mean by that term. KK>VI> It is not meant as any form of disrespect. But it describes a Jewish KK>VI>male who normally wears a dark or black suit, a black yarmulke, and KK>VI>usually a black hat on his head. If I am wrong about this, I am sorry. KK>VI>But I think I am raising a valid point. Ie, that it is unlikely for a KK>VI>"frum" Jew to mistake a nonJew as a Jew simply because the nonJew wears KK>VI>a yarmulke. There are other clues as well. :) KK>In the shul I daven many do not wear hats at all! Black suits are in the KK>minority. My most expensive suit IS black. I prefer wearing my dark KK>gray, teal, or one that leans towards brownish green. The brownish green KK>is my favorite. During the week forget about it. There would be no way KK>for you to guage anything by clothing then. Except that we'd all be KK>wearing yarmulkas. KK>What you described above is the classic description of a Mesivta Bochor. KK>Generally that is how they all dress. Then I stand corrected. Sorry. But what is a "Mesivta Bochor"? I am not familiar with that term. Date: Saturday, May 23, 1998 5:07am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746486 To: Kkid Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746482, Reply to #746471, Reply to #746464, R*) KK>VI>KK>Gotcha. KK>VI>KK>But again, if it is a matter of respect for a male to cover his head i KK>VI>KK>a shul why is the same not true for a woman? Perhaps you can ask the KK>VI>KK>rabbi at BJ the next time you are there. KK>VI>Well the female assistant rabbis and prayer leaders at BJ all wear head KK>VI>coverings. It's the members of the congregration that do not. It is my KK>VI>undrestanding that in order for a female to enroll in the Conservative KK>VI>seminary, JTS, as either a cantorial student or a rabbinical student she KK>VI>must agree to be bound by all the time bound mitzvot. So at morning KK>VI>services, the female prayer leaders and assistant rabbis wear a tallit KK>VI>and a tefflin, together with a yarmulkes. You see very few men wearing KK>VI>a tefflin at BJ, btw. The "official" people yes, but only a scattered KK>VI>few men among the congregration. KK>VI>I have never heard any of the rabbis or assistant rabbis say anything at KK>VI>the services regarding the general practice of women not wearing a head KK>VI>covering. All I can say to you is that I think you are right. And that KK>VI>I plan to bring with me my personal yarmulke to BJ and start weering it KK>VI>on a regular basis. :) KK>My intention was not to get you to wear a yarmulka! :-) KK>According to you the wearing of the yarmulka is not a mitzvah, so it has KK>nothing at all to do with time bound or not time bound. It is simply a KK>matter of respect. Therefore I asked why does a man have to show that KK>respect and not a woman? As far as Orthodox Jews are concerned, only men KK>wear a yarmulka. I do recall once knowing the reason why women don't, KK>but I guess I'll have to ask someone to refresh my memory. It may NOT have been your intention to get me to wear a yarmulke, but that's the result of our conversation. :) It is my position that there is no biblical commandment that males wear a yarmulke. And I have been taught that this is just a custom that developed to show respect for G-d. And I also feel very strongely that it is a major league form of disrespect for our religion for any male to be inside a Jewish synagogue and not wear a yarmulke. And, of course, absolute equality between men and women is an important part of my religious/spirtual/political belief system. So given all these beliefs it WAS a contradiction for me not to wear a yarmulke. So your "gotcha" got me to change my behavior. Date: Saturday, May 23, 1998 5:37am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746487 To: Kkid Re: More fuel for the fire (Reply to #746483, Reply to #746476) (1 reply) KK>VI>I received this d'vrai torah on one of my e mail lists. I get so many e KK>VI>mail lists that heaven knows which one it was posted on. I think it KK>VI>adds some fuel to my fire to my argument that you have to treat other KK>VI>human beings with kindness and gentleness, unless an eminent life KK>VI>threatening situation is at hand. I believe that this d'vrai torah was KK>VI>probably written by some one on the "Orthodox continum"--meaning by an KK>VI>Orthodox Jew. The basis for this belief is that the article refers to KK>VI>G-d as "HaShem". I have NEVER seen a nonOrthodox Jew make use of that KK>VI>usage. Indeed, there was an op ed piece in the current issue by KK>VI>"Moment" by Dennis Prager urging Orthodox Jews to stop making use of KK>VI>this way to refer to G-d--because it creates a rift in the Jewish KK>VI>people. (I think, on the other hand, that this just REFLECTS a rift KK>VI>that actually exists.) KK>Hmmm... How do non Orthodox Jews refer to Him????????? We use many KK>Hebrew words sprinkled into our everyday language. This is just one of KK>them. I'd ask Dennis Prager to urge the non Orthodox Jews to start using KK>the term HaShem and that way the rift would close as well :-) NonOrthodox Jews use many different terms too. At BJ they mainly use the "A" word. In Jewish renewal circles, almost all of the prayers are addressed to Yah. And in feminist Jewish circles you will see a lot of prayers addressed to Shekina, with the use of the feminine form of the Hebrew in the prayer. Actually, I agree with you that nonOrthodox Jews should probably use the term "HaShem". All it means is "The Name". The reason why the Jewish renewal movement started using Yah as its main form of addressing G-d is that they wanted to avoid addressing G-d as King or ruler for political/theological reasons. So why NOT use "HaShem"? The only reason why is to distinguish our stuff from stuff generated by Orthodox Jews. Which of course, just preserves the rift. But I do not see any way to heal this rift without compromising MY principles. Orthodox Jews do not allow women to recite from the Torah to the ENTIRE mixed male/female congregration. I, in good conscience, can not accept this. KK>VI>it or is it not something to celebrate? KK>VI>Let's view the various things we can learn directly KK>VI>from the Torah on KK>VI>how we should behave on the Jubilee: KK>VI>The first verse says that we are to sound the shofar KK>VI>specifically on Yom KK>VI>Kippur. Why this day of the year? Wouldn't we think we KK>VI>would want a huge KK>VI>celebration with fireworks and big parties with KK>VI>dancing (the type that KK>VI>was done during the time of the Bet Mikdash; not like KK>VI>"Jubilee Bells")? KK>VI>The Torah teaches us that Yom Kippur is the holiest KK>VI>day of the year. In KK>VI>view of the other laws mentioned about the Jubilee, we KK>VI>see one general KK>VI>concept throughout. That is the concept of complete KK>VI>total freedom. KK>VI>Slaves are freed. We cannot oppress our neighbor. KK>VI>Debts are released and KK>VI>annulled. All land goes back to the original KK>VI>landowner. All of these KK>VI>convey a message of freedom. KK>Most medrashim say this shows that nothing belongs to us--that all KK>belongs to G-d. He is the one that apportioned everything to the tribes KK>when they entered Israel, and that is how things had to remain. I agree with this interpretation. But I think that the Torah as a whole teaches us not to oppress others. That is the CENTRAL message of Exodus, and is repeated over and over and over again throughout the Torah. KK>VI>regarding business dealings. Here, the phrase is far KK>VI>more general. Here, KK>VI>it means that one should not oppress his neighbor by KK>VI>harmful speech. One KK>VI[As forbidden to remind his neighbor about his / her KK>VI>past or ancestry KK>VI>when it may be hurtful. One is forbidden to give KK>VI>harmful advice. KK>VI>Notice that regarding anything that deals with such KK>VI>personal matters, KK>VI>the Torah always uses the verse, "You shall fear God" KK>Rashi explains the use of You shall fear G-d in these cases. KK>A human individual can not read minds and may not know how KK>pure or impure your intentions may be. G-d knows. But this supports my point Kkid! If humans can't know and if only G-d knows than human beings have no right to "correct" the mistakes of another person, unless a life is at stake! KK>VI>(A similar KK>[A>expression is used in Leviticus 19:14 regarding KK>VI>cursing a deaf person or KK>VI>placing a stumbling block before the blind). Rashi KK>VI>explains that the KK>VI>reason for this stern warning is in case someone KK>VI>reasons, "I had no KK>VI>intention to harm such a person. It was his /her fault KK>VI>/ KK>VI>misinterpretation, etc. that caused him / her harm." KK>VI>Therefore the Torah KK>VI>says, "Fear God. I know what your intention really KK>VI>was." KK>VI>Finally, the last verse mentions the specific item KK>VI>that will guarantee KK>VI>our security on the land. It will occur only if KK>VI>everyone adheres to the KK>VI>laws of the Torah. Historically, we see what has KK>VI>happened to Israel and KK>[B>its people time and time again. This cycle has KK>VI>occurred from the time of KK>VI>the prophets until today. When the Jews perform the KK>VI>mitzvot and obey KK>[B>God's commandments, they live in Israel securely and KK>VI>safely. When they KK>VI>stray from it, God strays from us and either does not KK>VI>lend the full KK>VI>support we need or, God forbid, exiles us completely KK>VI>from our land. KK>VI>We must always be aware that God is the one who is KK>VI>given us the land in KK>VI>the first place. He, ultimately, controls our KK>VI>possessions, our parcels, KK>VI>and our placement. This is the primary reason of KK>VI>giving the land a rest KK>VI>every seventh year (and on the 50th year of Jubilee as KK>VI>well.) Similar to KK>VI>our resting every seventh day, we let the land rest KK>VI>every seventh year. KK>VI>Both are acknowledgements that we and the soil itself KK>VI>that we stand on KK>VI>are in the sole control and command of God. KK>VI> KK>As an aside we are now counting the Sefira--the 49 days to when the KK>Torah was given to us. Orthodox Jews consider these days, days of KK>mourning. It is the period of time when Rabbi Akiva lost all his KK>students. ( I think the number was in the thousands...like maybe even KK>50,000). Most medrashim say it was because they did not show respect for KK>each other. There was no real unity between them. I knew this. We count the Omer at BJ. :) KK>Now on to mussar--the chastising of someone. We have a commandment to KK>chastise someone whom we see doing wrong. There are many laws regarding KK>this. We do not intentionally chastise someone in order to embarrass KK>that individual. I am writing this from Bob's house so I don't have access to my library. But one of my books is a book by Joseph Telushkin, who is a well respected Orthodox rabbi, which is entitled, if I recall correctly, "Words that Hurt, Words that Heal". It is a short little book, so I will skim it over again. But actually much of my beliefs in this area were formed by my "digesting" of that book. :) Date: Sunday, May 24, 1998 3:56pm Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 746491 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746484, Reply to #746478, Reply to #746469, R*) (1 reply) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Well, if this person is like her step-sister, I know sh VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>person. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>If she helps prepare kids for their bar/bat mitzvah than s VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>very, very good. That's a BIG responsibility. :) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I know but I've always thought it curious that the two sister VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>diffrent relgious & that they more or less teach the same thi VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>see, my friend prepares children for their first Communion & VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>No, it's not so strange. The two sisters ARE teaching the same VI>NI>VI>NI>VI> I personally believe that Jesus was a great rabbi who was sent VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>earth to teach the lessons of Torah to the gentile nations. :) VI>NI>VI>NI>I agree with you to a certain point. VI>NI>VI>Of course you only agree with me to a certain point. You are a VI>NI>VI>Christian, I a Jew. But I think I give Jesus as much credit as you VI>NI>VI>possibly can, and still remain on the Jewish side of the fence, so to VI>NI>VI>speak. :) VI>NI>True VI>The important point is that we respect each other differences. And the VI>common source we share. :) No problem with that. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>(Intermediate exchanges ommitted.) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I understand why you sit when it's time to VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>we DON'T kneel, we stand during the prayers VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>kneel at) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>That's interesting. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>That kind of variation is permitted by the Bro VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>thought that the Arch diocese would more or le VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>of practice on this matter. But then again, I VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>mass once at a Catholic church in Brooklyn--ap VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Latin masses every week. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I'm not too sure but I think the Pastor of the Pa VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>wheather the people should stand or kneel during VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I went to a mass on long island yesterday & they VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Yes. And at Bob's church they kneel also. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Do you know why the Pastor of your Parish decided no VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>the communion prayers? Why, in the first place, do VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>kneel during these prayers? VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>This kind of stuff interests me. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>It's because when we Catholics celebrate communion, we VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>receiving the body & blood of Christ. We kneel to show VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>beileve that when the church first started, people stoo VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>communion prayers. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>But now you got me confused. From my memory of the masses VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>attended with Bob the congregration kneeled at several poi VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>mass. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>And for some of the prayers the congregration stood. But VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>tell you which prayers led to what response. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Perhaps it has something to do with acknowledging that G*d VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI> Ie., if you bow before a human king than you bow during VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>of the service that address G*d as the divine king? I kno VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Jewish perspective this is frequently the case for prayers VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>bow. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Usually, the congregration will kneel during the Communion pr VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>sometimes for different blessings. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>There's more than one Communion prayer in a mass? And for which VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>blessings do they kneel? VI>NI>VI>NI>There is one long prayer broken into various parts. VI>NI>VI>NI>When we have Good Friday & when new Cathlics come into the church. VI>NI>VI>NI>There are other but they don't come to mind right now. VI>NI>VI>OK, the fact that it is one prayer broken into several parts explains VI>NI>VI>to me. Is the communion prayer said before people actually go to line VI>NI>VI>up to receive communion? VI>NI>Well, it starts after the readings & Gospel(when people bring up the VI>NI>gifts & it ends when people actually line up to receive Communion. VI>I am not that familiar with the portions of the mass, so I don't quite VI>know what you are talking about. But Bob's daughter could definitely VI>explain it all to me if I asked her. She has been an alter server at VI>her parish church for the past two years. :) Not a bad idea(believe it or not, I'm also a altar server but not as long as Bob's daughter. VI>NI> VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I also understand your reason for VI>NI>not receiving c VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>here's a funny for you. Last VI>NI>year one of my best frie VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I was the maid of VI>NI>honor. There were two Jewish men in t VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>the priest VI>NI>who said the mass blessed them bt one of the VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>brothers(who is Jewish)received because he VI>NI>thought his VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>As long as people are in good faith try to sho VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>religion of the "host" house of worship is wha VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Trust me, they did but it was VERY interesting. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Sounds like a sweet little misunderstanding to me. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Yes, it was a misunderstanding, but it was funny. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>I hope the Jewish people involved also laughed at their mi VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Well, the person in question didn't understand what he did wr VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>men in the bridal party who are Jewish hang out with Catolics VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>less knew what went wrong. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>--- VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>So hopefully they explained the error to this gentleman in a fri VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>fahion. :) VI>NI>VI>NI>Yes, but the person in question was being very annoying that day. VI>NI>VI>That's too bad. It's possible he was just not a very nice person. VI>NI>From what I've been told, he can be VERY annoying but I deal with him VI>NI>because his brother is a friend of mine. VI>You know what they say. You can choose your friends, but not your VI>relatives. I just had a shooting match with my younger sister last VI>night. So I know from annoying siblings. :( What kind of gun did you use? :) I understand what you're saying about sibling, believe you me. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ #607 Better is nice, but conventional is better. Date: Sunday, May 24, 1998 4:25pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 746492 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746485, Reply to #746481, Reply to #746470, R*) (1 reply) BI>KK>What you described above is the classic description of a Mesivta Bochor. VI>KK>Generally that is how they all dress. VI>Then I stand corrected. Sorry. But what is a "Mesivta Bochor"? I am VI>not familiar with that term. Mesivta is the term generally used for high school classes. The students of lets say Chaim Berlin, Torah Vodaath, Torah Temimah, and Mir, which are the more known Mesivtas, all dress with black hats and either black suits, or dark pants with either a black or blue sports jacket. Most of them will also wear their Tzitzit out. When not in Mesivta, some of them will dress differently. Date: Sunday, May 24, 1998 4:40pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 746493 To: Vida Re: More fuel for the fire (Reply to #746487, Reply to #746483, Reply to #746476) (1 reply) VI>KK>Hmmm... How do non Orthodox Jews refer to Him????????? We use many VI>KK>Hebrew words sprinkled into our everyday language. This is just one of VI>KK>them. I'd ask Dennis Prager to urge the non Orthodox Jews to start using VI>KK>the term HaShem and that way the rift would close as well :-) VI>NonOrthodox Jews use many different terms too. At BJ they mainly use VI>the "A" word. VI>In Jewish renewal circles, almost all of the prayers are addressed to VI>Yah. And in feminist Jewish circles you will see a lot of prayers VI>addressed to Shekina, with the use of the feminine form of the Hebrew in VI>the prayer. I am not sure what you mean by the "A" word, but regardless, Orthodox Jews learn that we are not supposed to pronounce G-ds name unless we are actually reading or reciting a specific prayer or psalm. So we would say Kayl rather than witout the K. We would say El-O-Kim, putting the K in there rather than an H. We would say Sha-Kai with a K instead of with a D. And last but not least we say Hashem instead of A-Do followed by Nai. Some would say A-Do and then follow it by Hashem. Woops! Almost forgot. The name that you mention that begins with the Y, which is the "yud" followed by a "heh" in Hebrew, would be pronounced as Kuh by us. When spelling all these names there would be changes as well. [Ar example if I were to tell you how to spell the last name I would have said Yud Kay. In actuality it would be spelled with a Yud or Daled followed by an apostrophe. VI>But this supports my point Kkid! If humans can't know and if only G-d VI>knows than human beings have no right to "correct" the mistakes of VI>another person, unless a life is at stake! That is certainly not what I learned. All Jews are responsible for each other. There were many cases where a whole tribe or group were punished for not making sure that another in their group did not sin. Date: Sunday, May 24, 1998 6:47pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746494 To: Kkid Re: What Telushkin has to say about shaming others (1 reply) Ok, I got out Joseph Telushkin's book, "Words That Hurt, Words That Heal" and re-read it. It more or less confirms what I thought. Telushkin argues that while it is morally justifable to rebuke someone (and indeed sometimes morally REQUIRED to do so) that one must always do so in such a manner as not to cause shame and humilation to the person being corrected. Telushkin quotes Maimonides, who said: "He who rebukes another, whether for offenses agaisnt the rebuker himself or for sins against G-d, should administer the revuke in private, speak to the offender gently and tenderly, and point out that he is only speaking for the wrongdoer's own good.". Telushkin also cites Rabbenu Bachya from "Enclopedia of Torah Thoughts" who said: "It would be better for a person not to have been born at all than to experience these seven things: the death of his children in his lifetime, econonmic dependence upon others, an unnatural death, forfetting his learning, suffering, slavery, and publically shaming his fellow man". Telushkin notes that "publically shaming his fellow man" is included in this list of the worse fates to be endured by a person. The reason for this, he argues, is that since human beings are created by G-d it is wrong to squander the gift of G-d by deliberating hurting another human being. Telushkin makes several others references to reinforce his position, most notiable from the Talmud at Bava Metzia 58b where it says: "A person who shames another publically acts if he has shed blood". That's a pretty argument I would say. :) Date: Monday, May 25, 1998 2:29am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746497 To: Nightbird Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746491, Reply to #746484, Reply to #746478, R*) (2 replies) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Well, if this person is like her step-sister, I know NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>person. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>If she helps prepare kids for their bar/bat mitzvah tha NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>very, very good. That's a BIG responsibility. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I know but I've always thought it curious that the two sis NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>diffrent relgious & that they more or less teach the same NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>see, my friend prepares children for their first Communion NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>No, it's not so strange. The two sisters ARE teaching the sa NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI> I personally believe that Jesus was a great rabbi who was se NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>earth to teach the lessons of Torah to the gentile nations. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I agree with you to a certain point. NI>VI>NI>VI>Of course you only agree with me to a certain point. You are a NI>VI>NI>VI>Christian, I a Jew. But I think I give Jesus as much credit as you NI>VI>NI>VI>possibly can, and still remain on the Jewish side of the fence, so NI>VI>NI>VI>speak. :) NI>VI>NI>True NI>VI>The important point is that we respect each other differences. And the NI>VI>common source we share. :) NI>No problem with that. I didn't think you would have a problem with that. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>(Intermediate exchanges ommitted.) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I understand why you sit when it's time NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>we DON'T kneel, we stand during the pray NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>kneel at) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>That's interesting. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>That kind of variation is permitted by the NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>thought that the Arch diocese would more or NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>of practice on this matter. But then again NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>mass once at a Catholic church in Brooklyn- NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Latin masses every week. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I'm not too sure but I think the Pastor of the NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>wheather the people should stand or kneel duri NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I went to a mass on long island yesterday & th NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Yes. And at Bob's church they kneel also. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Do you know why the Pastor of your Parish decided NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>the communion prayers? Why, in the first place, NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>kneel during these prayers? NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>This kind of stuff interests me. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>It's because when we Catholics celebrate communion, NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>receiving the body & blood of Christ. We kneel to s NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>beileve that when the church first started, people s NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>communion prayers. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>But now you got me confused. From my memory of the mas NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>attended with Bob the congregration kneeled at several NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>mass. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>And for some of the prayers the congregration stood. B NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>tell you which prayers led to what response. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Perhaps it has something to do with acknowledging that NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI> Ie., if you bow before a human king than you bow duri NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>of the service that address G*d as the divine king? I NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Jewish perspective this is frequently the case for pray NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>bow. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Usually, the congregration will kneel during the Communion NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>sometimes for different blessings. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>There's more than one Communion prayer in a mass? And for wh NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>blessings do they kneel? NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>There is one long prayer broken into various parts. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>When we have Good Friday & when new Cathlics come into the churc NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>There are other but they don't come to mind right now. NI>VI>NI>VI>OK, the fact that it is one prayer broken into several parts explai NI>VI>NI>VI>to me. Is the communion prayer said before people actually go to l NI>VI>NI>VI>up to receive communion? NI>VI>NI>Well, it starts after the readings & Gospel(when people bring up the NI>VI>NI>gifts & it ends when people actually line up to receive Communion. NI>VI>I am not that familiar with the portions of the mass, so I don't quite NI>VI>know what you are talking about. But Bob's daughter could definitely NI>VI>explain it all to me if I asked her. She has been an alter server at NI>VI>her parish church for the past two years. :) NI>Not a bad idea(believe it or not, I'm also a altar server but not as NI>long as Bob's daughter. They have adult altar servers at your parish church? At Bob's church the altar servers are all kids. Bob's kid goes to Catholic School and her favorite subject is religion. So she could definitely tell me. :) NI> VI>NI> VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I also understand your reason NI>for VI>NI>not receiving c VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>here's a funny for NI>you. Last VI>NI>year one of my best frie VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I was NI>the maid of VI>NI>honor. There were two Jewish men in t NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>the priest VI>NI>who said the mass blessed them NI>bt one of the VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>brothers(who is NI>Jewish)received because he VI>NI>thought his NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>As long as people are in good faith try to NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>religion of the "host" house of worship is NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Trust me, they did but it was VERY interesting NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Sounds like a sweet little misunderstanding to me NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Yes, it was a misunderstanding, but it was funny. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>I hope the Jewish people involved also laughed at their NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Well, the person in question didn't understand what he did NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>men in the bridal party who are Jewish hang out with Catol NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>less knew what went wrong. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>--- NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>So hopefully they explained the error to this gentleman in a NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>fahion. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Yes, but the person in question was being very annoying that day NI>VI>NI>VI>That's too bad. It's possible he was just not a very nice person. NI>VI>NI>From what I've been told, he can be VERY annoying but I deal with him NI>VI>NI>because his brother is a friend of mine. NI>VI>You know what they say. You can choose your friends, but not your NI>VI>relatives. I just had a shooting match with my younger sister last NI>VI>night. So I know from annoying siblings. :( NI>What kind of gun did you use? :) None yet. :) NI>I understand what you're saying about sibling, believe you me. NI>--- NI> þ OLX 2.1 TD þ #607 Better is nice, but conventional is better. Date: Monday, May 25, 1998 2:33am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746498 To: Kkid Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746492, Reply to #746485, Reply to #746481, R*) (1 reply) KK>BI>KK>What you described above is the classic description of a Mesivta KK>Bochor. KK>VI>KK>Generally that is how they all dress. KK>VI>Then I stand corrected. Sorry. But what is a "Mesivta Bochor"? I am KK>VI>not familiar with that term. KK>Mesivta is the term generally used for high school classes. The students KK>of lets say Chaim Berlin, Torah Vodaath, Torah Temimah, and Mir, which KK>are the more known Mesivtas, all dress with black hats and either black KK>suits, or dark pants with either a black or blue sports jacket. Most of KK>them will also wear their Tzitzit out. KK>When not in Mesivta, some of them will dress differently. Ok, thanks. Actually, what I was describing was the men that I see coming out of the Orthodox synagogue in Brooklyn Heights. And these were adult men. I have also seen adult men dressed in this manner in Court. And you are right, I frequenly notice that these men are wearing tztzit. Date: Monday, May 25, 1998 2:39am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746499 To: Kkid Re: More fuel for the fire (Reply to #746493, Reply to #746487, Reply to #746483, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>KK>Hmmm... How do non Orthodox Jews refer to Him????????? We use many KK>VI>KK>Hebrew words sprinkled into our everyday language. This is just one of KK>VI>KK>them. I'd ask Dennis Prager to urge the non Orthodox Jews to start usi KK>VI>KK>the term HaShem and that way the rift would close as well :-) KK>VI>NonOrthodox Jews use many different terms too. At BJ they mainly use KK>VI>the "A" word. KK>VI>In Jewish renewal circles, almost all of the prayers are addressed to KK>VI>Yah. And in feminist Jewish circles you will see a lot of prayers KK>VI>addressed to Shekina, with the use of the feminine form of the Hebrew in KK>VI>the prayer. KK>I am not sure what you mean by the "A" word, but regardless, I meant the word that starts with A-Do followed by Nai. >>Orthodox KK>Jews learn that we are not supposed to pronounce G-ds name unless we are KK>actually reading or reciting a specific prayer or psalm. KK>So we would say Kayl rather than witout the K. We would say El-O-Kim, KK>putting the K in there rather than an H. We would say Sha-Kai with a K KK>instead of with a D. And last but not least we say Hashem instead of KK>A-Do followed by Nai. Some would say A-Do and then follow it by Hashem. KK>Woops! Almost forgot. The name that you mention that begins with the Y, KK>which is the "yud" followed by a "heh" in Hebrew, would be pronounced as KK>Kuh by us. When spelling all these names there would be changes as well. KK>[Ar example if I were to tell you how to spell the last name I would KK>have said Yud Kay. In actuality it would be spelled with a Yud or Daled KK>followed by an apostrophe. I was aware of this practice. :) My first attempt to learn the Hebrew alphabeth was when I took the "Hebrew Crash Reading Course" that you might have seen advertised in the subways. That class was taught at an Orthodox synagouge. And we followed that practice in this class. KK>VI>But this supports my point Kkid! If humans can't know and if only G-d KK>VI>knows than human beings have no right to "correct" the mistakes of KK>VI>another person, unless a life is at stake! KK>That is certainly not what I learned. All Jews are responsible for each KK>other. There were many cases where a whole tribe or group were punished KK>for not making sure that another in their group did not sin. But even if this is true, it does not justify correcting another human being in a humilating manner. That's my central argument--that you must always treat another human being with dignity and respect. Date: Monday, May 25, 1998 11:58am Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 746501 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes 1/2 (Reply to #746497, Reply to #746491, Reply to #746484, R*) (1 reply) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Well, if this person is like her step-sister, I k VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>person. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>If she helps prepare kids for their bar/bat mitzvah VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>very, very good. That's a BIG responsibility. :) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I know but I've always thought it curious that the two VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>diffrent relgious & that they more or less teach the sa VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>see, my friend prepares children for their first Commun VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>No, it's not so strange. The two sisters ARE teaching the VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI> I personally believe that Jesus was a great rabbi who was VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>earth to teach the lessons of Torah to the gentile nations VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I agree with you to a certain point. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Of course you only agree with me to a certain point. You are a VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Christian, I a Jew. But I think I give Jesus as much credit as y VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>possibly can, and still remain on the Jewish side of the fence, VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>speak. :) VI>NI>VI>NI>True VI>NI>VI>The important point is that we respect each other differences. And th VI>NI>VI>common source we share. :) VI>NI>No problem with that. VI>I didn't think you would have a problem with that. :) You know me too well. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>(Intermediate exchanges ommitted.) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I understand why you sit when it's ti VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>we DON'T kneel, we stand during the p VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>kneel at) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>That's interesting. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>That kind of variation is permitted by t VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>thought that the Arch diocese would more VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>of practice on this matter. But then ag VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>mass once at a Catholic church in Brookl VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Latin masses every week. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I'm not too sure but I think the Pastor of VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>wheather the people should stand or kneel d VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I went to a mass on long island yesterday & VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Yes. And at Bob's church they kneel also. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Do you know why the Pastor of your Parish deci VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>the communion prayers? Why, in the first plac VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>kneel during these prayers? VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>This kind of stuff interests me. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>It's because when we Catholics celebrate communio VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>receiving the body & blood of Christ. We kneel t VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>beileve that when the church first started, peopl VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>communion prayers. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>But now you got me confused. From my memory of the VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>attended with Bob the congregration kneeled at sever VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>mass. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>And for some of the prayers the congregration stood. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>tell you which prayers led to what response. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Perhaps it has something to do with acknowledging th VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI> Ie., if you bow before a human king than you bow d VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>of the service that address G*d as the divine king? VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Jewish perspective this is frequently the case for p VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>bow. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Usually, the congregration will kneel during the Commun VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>sometimes for different blessings. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>There's more than one Communion prayer in a mass? And for VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>blessings do they kneel? VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>There is one long prayer broken into various parts. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>When we have Good Friday & when new Cathlics come into the ch VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>There are other but they don't come to mind right now. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>OK, the fact that it is one prayer broken into several parts exp VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>to me. Is the communion prayer said before people actually go t VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>up to receive communion? VI>NI>VI>NI>Well, it starts after the readings & Gospel(when people bring up th VI>NI>VI>NI>gifts & it ends when people actually line up to receive Communion. VI>NI>VI>I am not that familiar with the portions of the mass, so I don't quite VI>NI>VI>know what you are talking about. But Bob's daughter could definitely VI>NI>VI>explain it all to me if I asked her. She has been an alter server at VI>NI>VI>her parish church for the past two years. :) VI>NI>Not a bad idea(believe it or not, I'm also a altar server but not as VI>NI>long as Bob's daughter. VI>They have adult altar servers at your parish church? At Bob's church VI>the altar servers are all kids. I think I'm the only adult altar server, the rest are kids. VI>Bob's kid goes to Catholic School and her favorite subject is religion. VI> So she could definitely tell me. :) VI>NI> VI>NI> VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I also understand your reason VI>NI>for VI>NI>not receiving c VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>here's a funny for VI>NI>you. Last VI>NI>year one of my best frie VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I was VI>NI>the maid of VI>NI>honor. There were two Jewish men in t VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>the priest VI>NI>who said the mass blessed them VI>NI>bt one of the VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>brothers(who is VI>NI>Jewish)received because he VI>NI>thought his VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>As long as people are in good faith try VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>religion of the "host" house of worship VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Trust me, they did but it was VERY interest VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Sounds like a sweet little misunderstanding to VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Yes, it was a misunderstanding, but it was funny. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>I hope the Jewish people involved also laughed at th VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Well, the person in question didn't understand what he VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>men in the bridal party who are Jewish hang out with Ca VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>less knew what went wrong. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>--- VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>So hopefully they explained the error to this gentleman in VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>fahion. :) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Yes, but the person in question was being very annoying that VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>That's too bad. It's possible he was just not a very nice perso >>> Continued to next message --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ This little tagline went to market. - George Mosley Date: Monday, May 25, 1998 11:58am Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 746502 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes 2/2 (Reply to #746497, Reply to #746491, Reply to #746484, R*) >>> Continued from previous message VI>NI>VI>NI>From what I've been told, he can be VERY annoying but I deal with h VI>NI>VI>NI>because his brother is a friend of mine. VI>NI>VI>You know what they say. You can choose your friends, but not your VI>NI>VI>relatives. I just had a shooting match with my younger sister last VI>NI>VI>night. So I know from annoying siblings. :( --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ This little tagline went to market. - George Mosley Date: Tuesday, May 26, 1998 6:03am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746503 To: Nightbird Re: Yarmulkes 1/2 (Reply to #746501, Reply to #746497, Reply to #746491, R*) (1 reply) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Well, if this person is like her step-sister, NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>person. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>If she helps prepare kids for their bar/bat mitzv NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>very, very good. That's a BIG responsibility. : NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I know but I've always thought it curious that the t NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>diffrent relgious & that they more or less teach the NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>see, my friend prepares children for their first Com NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>No, it's not so strange. The two sisters ARE teaching NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI> I personally believe that Jesus was a great rabbi who NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>earth to teach the lessons of Torah to the gentile nati NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I agree with you to a certain point. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Of course you only agree with me to a certain point. You are NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Christian, I a Jew. But I think I give Jesus as much credit a NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>possibly can, and still remain on the Jewish side of the fenc NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>speak. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>True NI>VI>NI>VI>The important point is that we respect each other differences. And NI>VI>NI>VI>common source we share. :) NI>VI>NI>No problem with that. NI>VI>I didn't think you would have a problem with that. :) NI>You know me too well. Thank you. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>(Intermediate exchanges ommitted.) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I understand why you sit when it's NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>we DON'T kneel, we stand during th NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>kneel at) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>That's interesting. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>That kind of variation is permitted b NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>thought that the Arch diocese would m NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>of practice on this matter. But then NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>mass once at a Catholic church in Bro NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Latin masses every week. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I'm not too sure but I think the Pastor NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>wheather the people should stand or knee NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I went to a mass on long island yesterda NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Yes. And at Bob's church they kneel also. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Do you know why the Pastor of your Parish d NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>the communion prayers? Why, in the first p NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>kneel during these prayers? NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>This kind of stuff interests me. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>It's because when we Catholics celebrate commu NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>receiving the body & blood of Christ. We knee NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>beileve that when the church first started, pe NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>communion prayers. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>But now you got me confused. From my memory of t NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>attended with Bob the congregration kneeled at se NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>mass. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>And for some of the prayers the congregration sto NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>tell you which prayers led to what response. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Perhaps it has something to do with acknowledging NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI> Ie., if you bow before a human king than you bo NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>of the service that address G*d as the divine kin NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Jewish perspective this is frequently the case fo NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>bow. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Usually, the congregration will kneel during the Com NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>sometimes for different blessings. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>There's more than one Communion prayer in a mass? And NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>blessings do they kneel? NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>There is one long prayer broken into various parts. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>When we have Good Friday & when new Cathlics come into the NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>There are other but they don't come to mind right now. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>OK, the fact that it is one prayer broken into several parts NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>to me. Is the communion prayer said before people actually g NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>up to receive communion? NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Well, it starts after the readings & Gospel(when people bring up NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>gifts & it ends when people actually line up to receive Communio NI>VI>NI>VI>I am not that familiar with the portions of the mass, so I don't qu NI>VI>NI>VI>know what you are talking about. But Bob's daughter could definite NI>VI>NI>VI>explain it all to me if I asked her. She has been an alter server NI>VI>NI>VI>her parish church for the past two years. :) NI>VI>NI>Not a bad idea(believe it or not, I'm also a altar server but not as NI>VI>NI>long as Bob's daughter. NI>VI>They have adult altar servers at your parish church? At Bob's church NI>VI>the altar servers are all kids. NI>I think I'm the only adult altar server, the rest are kids. So is that a compliment or an insult? How did that come to be? NI>VI>Bob's kid goes to Catholic School and her favorite subject is religion. NI>VI> So she could definitely tell me. :) I doubt THAT. She's still only 11 years old--she'll turn 12 in July. :) NI>VI>NI> VI>NI> VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I also understand your reason NI>VI>NI>for VI>NI>not receiving c VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>here's a funny for NI>VI>NI>you. Last VI>NI>year one of my best frie VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I wa NI>VI>NI>the maid of VI>NI>honor. There were two Jewish men in t NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>the priest VI>NI>who said the mass blessed the NI>VI>NI>bt one of the VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>brothers(who is NI>VI>NI>Jewish)received because he VI>NI>thought his NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>As long as people are in good faith t NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>religion of the "host" house of worsh NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Trust me, they did but it was VERY inter NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Sounds like a sweet little misunderstanding NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Yes, it was a misunderstanding, but it was fun NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>I hope the Jewish people involved also laughed at NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Well, the person in question didn't understand what NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>men in the bridal party who are Jewish hang out with NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>less knew what went wrong. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>--- NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>So hopefully they explained the error to this gentleman NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>fahion. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Yes, but the person in question was being very annoying th NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>That's too bad. It's possible he was just not a very nice pe NI>>>> Continued to next message NI>--- NI> þ OLX 2.1 TD þ This little tagline went to market. - George Mosley Date: Tuesday, May 26, 1998 11:37am Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 746506 To: Vida Re: What Telushkin has to say about shaming others (Reply to #746494) (1 reply) VI>Telushkin argues that while it is morally justifable to rebuke someone VI>(and indeed sometimes morally REQUIRED to do so) that one must always VI>do so in such a manner as not to cause shame and humilation to the VI>person being corrected. I agree. Now what? VI>Telushkin quotes Maimonides, who said: "He who rebukes another, VI>whether for offenses agaisnt the rebuker himself or for sins against VI>G-d, should administer the revuke in private, speak to the offender VI>gently and tenderly, and point out that he is only speaking for the VI>wrongdoer's own good.". To an orthodox Jew, the descration of the Sabbath is a big deal--like life and death would be to you. When a split second can save the persons life, you jump in and try to save that life. If an individual makes an mistake and says the wrong word during a prayer, then I agree with you. VI>Telushkin also cites Rabbenu Bachya from "Enclopedia of Torah Thoughts" VI>who said: "It would be better for a person not to have been born at VI>Telushkin makes several others references to reinforce his position, VI>most notiable from the Talmud at Bava Metzia 58b where it says: "A VI>person who shames another publically acts if he has shed blood". VI>That's a pretty argument I would say. :) You did not need so many references. I agree with Telushkin. Date: Tuesday, May 26, 1998 11:39am Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 746507 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746498, Reply to #746492, Reply to #746485, R*) (1 reply) VI>Ok, thanks. VI>Actually, what I was describing was the men that I see coming out of VI>the Orthodox synagogue in Brooklyn Heights. And these were adult men. VI>I have also seen adult men dressed in this manner in Court. And you VI>are right, I frequenly notice that these men are wearing tztzit. Wow! I was not aware of such a group in Brooklyn Heights. Any chance that they are Lubavitcher Chasiddim? Date: Tuesday, May 26, 1998 11:42am Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 746508 To: Vida Re: More fuel for the fire (Reply to #746499, Reply to #746493, Reply to #746487, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>I am not sure what you mean by the "A" word, but regardless, VI>I meant the word that starts with A-Do followed by Nai. The only time we pronounce the word that way is in actual prayer. VI>My first attempt to learn the Hebrew alphabeth was when I took the VI>"Hebrew Crash Reading Course" that you might have seen advertised in VI>the subways. That class was taught at an Orthodox synagouge. And we VI>followed that practice in this class. VI>KK>VI>But this supports my point Kkid! If humans can't know and if only G-d VI>KK>VI>knows than human beings have no right to "correct" the mistakes of VI>KK>VI>another person, unless a life is at stake! VI>KK>That is certainly not what I learned. All Jews are responsible for each VI>KK>other. There were many cases where a whole tribe or group were punished VI>KK>for not making sure that another in their group did not sin. VI>But even if this is true, it does not justify correcting another human VI>being in a humilating manner. That's my central argument--that you VI>must always treat another human being with dignity and respect. The individual being corrected was not humiliated. He had no idea that he was being yelled at, and later when told why the other guy was yelling had no idea what the whole thing was about. The person who yelled was somewhat embarrassed when he found out that he yelled at a non Jew. Date: Tuesday, May 26, 1998 2:00pm Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 746510 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes 1/2 (Reply to #746503, Reply to #746501, Reply to #746497, R*) (1 reply) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI> I personally believe that Jesus was a great rabbi w VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>earth to teach the lessons of Torah to the gentile n VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I agree with you to a certain point. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Of course you only agree with me to a certain point. You VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Christian, I a Jew. But I think I give Jesus as much credi VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>possibly can, and still remain on the Jewish side of the f VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>speak. :) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>True VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>The important point is that we respect each other differences. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>common source we share. :) VI>NI>VI>NI>No problem with that. VI>NI>VI>I didn't think you would have a problem with that. :) VI>NI>You know me too well. VI>Thank you. :) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>(Intermediate exchanges ommitted.) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Well, it starts after the readings & Gospel(when people bring VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>gifts & it ends when people actually line up to receive Commu VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>I am not that familiar with the portions of the mass, so I don't VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>know what you are talking about. But Bob's daughter could defin VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>explain it all to me if I asked her. She has been an alter serv VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>her parish church for the past two years. :) VI>NI>VI>NI>Not a bad idea(believe it or not, I'm also a altar server but not a VI>NI>VI>NI>long as Bob's daughter. VI>NI>VI>They have adult altar servers at your parish church? At Bob's church VI>NI>VI>the altar servers are all kids. VI>NI>I think I'm the only adult altar server, the rest are kids. VI>So is that a compliment or an insult? How did that come to be? No, I wanted to be an altar server, it's a compliment. Must adults inthe parish who serve are readers or Communion servers. VI>NI>VI>Bob's kid goes to Catholic School and her favorite subject is religion VI>NI>VI> So she could definitely tell me. :) VI>I doubt THAT. She's still only 11 years old--she'll turn 12 in July. :) So, she may know what you want to know, even if she's only 11. VI>NI>VI>NI> VI>NI> VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I also understand your reason VI>NI>VI>NI>for VI>NI>not receiving c VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>here's a funny f VI>NI>VI>NI>you. Last VI>NI>year one of my best frie VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I VI>NI>VI>NI>the maid of VI>NI>honor. There were two Jewish men in t VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>the priest VI>NI>who said the mass blessed VI>NI>VI>NI>bt one of the VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>brothers(who is VI>NI>VI>NI>Jewish)received because he VI>NI>thought his VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>As long as people are in good fait VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>religion of the "host" house of wo VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Trust me, they did but it was VERY in VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Sounds like a sweet little misunderstand VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Yes, it was a misunderstanding, but it was VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>I hope the Jewish people involved also laughed VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Well, the person in question didn't understand wh VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>men in the bridal party who are Jewish hang out w VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>less knew what went wrong. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>--- VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>So hopefully they explained the error to this gentle VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>fahion. :) --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Musical composers can decompose Date: Tuesday, May 26, 1998 8:43pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746514 To: Kkid Re: What Telushkin has to say about shaming others (Reply to #746506, Reply to #746494) (1 reply) KK>VI>Telushkin argues that while it is morally justifable to rebuke someone KK>VI>(and indeed sometimes morally REQUIRED to do so) that one must always KK>VI>do so in such a manner as not to cause shame and humilation to the KK>VI>person being corrected. KK>I agree. Now what? Well, if you agree on this point than doesn't support my position that yelling at a person for violating the laws of Sabbath is not justifable? KK>VI>Telushkin quotes Maimonides, who said: "He who rebukes another, KK>VI>whether for offenses agaisnt the rebuker himself or for sins against KK>VI>G-d, should administer the revuke in private, speak to the offender KK>VI>gently and tenderly, and point out that he is only speaking for the KK>VI>wrongdoer's own good.". KK>To an orthodox Jew, the descration of the Sabbath is a big deal--like KK>life and death would be to you. When a split second can save the persons KK>life, you jump in and try to save that life. I realize that observing Sabbath is a big deal for Orthodox Jews. But Maimonides quote would seem to cover these kinds of violations--since he refers to both offenses against the rebuker and offenses against G-d. KK>If an individual makes an mistake and says the wrong word during a KK>prayer, then I agree with you. I would take it much broader than that. I think the requirement to speak to another in a respectful manner always applies--unless in a clear cut life and death situation. KK>VI>Telushkin also cites Rabbenu Bachya from "Enclopedia of Torah Thoughts" KK>VI>who said: "It would be better for a person not to have been born at KK>VI>Telushkin makes several others references to reinforce his position, KK>VI>most notiable from the Talmud at Bava Metzia 58b where it says: "A KK>VI>person who shames another publically acts if he has shed blood". KK>VI>That's a pretty argument I would say. :) KK>You did not need so many references. I agree with Telushkin. Then that would require you to agree with me. :) Date: Tuesday, May 26, 1998 8:48pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746515 To: Kkid Re: Yarmulkes (Reply to #746507, Reply to #746498, Reply to #746492, R*) KK>VI>Ok, thanks. KK>VI>Actually, what I was describing was the men that I see coming out of KK>VI>the Orthodox synagogue in Brooklyn Heights. And these were adult men. KK>VI>I have also seen adult men dressed in this manner in Court. And you KK>VI>are right, I frequenly notice that these men are wearing tztzit. KK>Wow! I was not aware of such a group in Brooklyn Heights. Any chance KK>that they are Lubavitcher Chasiddim? You got me beat. I have run across Lubavitchers at court in Brooklyn, but I always thought they were imported from Eastern Parkway. :) Date: Tuesday, May 26, 1998 8:51pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746516 To: Kkid Re: More fuel for the fire (Reply to #746508, Reply to #746499, Reply to #746493, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>KK>I am not sure what you mean by the "A" word, but regardless, KK>VI>I meant the word that starts with A-Do followed by Nai. KK>The only time we pronounce the word that way is in actual prayer. Yes, I know. That's why I called it the "A" word. I was trying to show respect for you. :) (Intermediate exchanges omitted) KK>VI>KK>That is certainly not what I learned. All Jews are responsible for eac KK>VI>KK>other. There were many cases where a whole tribe or group were punishe KK>VI>KK>for not making sure that another in their group did not sin. KK>VI>But even if this is true, it does not justify correcting another human KK>VI>being in a humilating manner. That's my central argument--that you KK>VI>must always treat another human being with dignity and respect. KK>The individual being corrected was not humiliated. He had no idea that KK>he was being yelled at, and later when told why the other guy was KK>yelling had no idea what the whole thing was about. The person who KK>yelled was somewhat embarrassed when he found out that he yelled at a KK>non Jew. That still doesn't justify the behavior. It is rude to yell at another person. Date: Tuesday, May 26, 1998 9:01pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746517 To: Nightbird Re: Yarmulkes 1/2 (Reply to #746510, Reply to #746503, Reply to #746501, R*) (1 reply) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI> I personally believe that Jesus was a great rabb NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>earth to teach the lessons of Torah to the gentil NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I agree with you to a certain point. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Of course you only agree with me to a certain point. Y NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Christian, I a Jew. But I think I give Jesus as much cr NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>possibly can, and still remain on the Jewish side of th NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>speak. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>True NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>The important point is that we respect each other differences NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>common source we share. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>No problem with that. NI>VI>NI>VI>I didn't think you would have a problem with that. :) NI>VI>NI>You know me too well. NI>VI>Thank you. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>(Intermediate exchanges ommitted.) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Well, it starts after the readings & Gospel(when people br NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>gifts & it ends when people actually line up to receive Co NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>I am not that familiar with the portions of the mass, so I do NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>know what you are talking about. But Bob's daughter could de NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>explain it all to me if I asked her. She has been an alter s NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>her parish church for the past two years. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Not a bad idea(believe it or not, I'm also a altar server but no NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>long as Bob's daughter. NI>VI>NI>VI>They have adult altar servers at your parish church? At Bob's chur NI>VI>NI>VI>the altar servers are all kids. NI>VI>NI>I think I'm the only adult altar server, the rest are kids. NI>VI>So is that a compliment or an insult? How did that come to be? NI>No, I wanted to be an altar server, it's a compliment. Must adults inthe NI>parish who serve are readers or Communion servers. Yes, I have seen adults doing both at Bob's church. Any reason why you wanted to be an altar server, rather than a reader or Communion server? Actually, I hope you are not insulted if I say this, but I am kinda surprised that the Church would allow an adult female to be an alter server. I kinda figured that once Bob's daughter was confirmed that she would be pulled for this position. Isn't this awfully close to allowing adult females to act as priests? Do you have any feelings on the issue of whether women should be ordained as priests? NI> VI>NI>VI>Bob's kid goes to Catholic School and her favorite NI>subject is religion VI>NI>VI> So she could definitely tell me. :) NI>VI>I doubt THAT. She's still only 11 years old--she'll turn 12 in July. :) NI> So, she may know what you want to know, even if she's only 11. It's possible. I will have to ask her the next time I go to Church with her and Bob. I don't know when that will be. I don't go with them too often --it's kinda hard for me as a Jew to attend Catholic services because so much of your liturgy refers to Jesus, the Trinity and Mary. (Subsequent exchanges omitted.) Date: Wednesday, May 27, 1998 11:37am Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 746522 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes 1/2 (Reply to #746517, Reply to #746510, Reply to #746503, R*) (1 reply) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI> I personally believe that Jesus was a great r VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>earth to teach the lessons of Torah to the gen VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I agree with you to a certain point. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Of course you only agree with me to a certain point. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Christian, I a Jew. But I think I give Jesus as much VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>possibly can, and still remain on the Jewish side of VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>speak. :) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>True VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>The important point is that we respect each other differen VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>common source we share. :) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>No problem with that. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>I didn't think you would have a problem with that. :) VI>NI>VI>NI>You know me too well. VI>NI>VI>Thank you. :) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>(Intermediate exchanges ommitted.) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Well, it starts after the readings & Gospel(when people VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>gifts & it ends when people actually line up to receive VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>I am not that familiar with the portions of the mass, so I VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>know what you are talking about. But Bob's daughter could VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>explain it all to me if I asked her. She has been an alte VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>her parish church for the past two years. :) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Not a bad idea(believe it or not, I'm also a altar server but VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>long as Bob's daughter. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>They have adult altar servers at your parish church? At Bob's c VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>the altar servers are all kids. VI>NI>VI>NI>I think I'm the only adult altar server, the rest are kids. VI>NI>VI>So is that a compliment or an insult? How did that come to be? VI>NI>No, I wanted to be an altar server, it's a compliment. Must adults inthe VI>NI>parish who serve are readers or Communion servers. VI>Yes, I have seen adults doing both at Bob's church. Any reason why VI>you wanted to be an altar server, rather than a reader or Communion VI>server? I wanted to be an altar server VI>Actually, I hope you are not insulted if I say this, but I am kinda VI>surprised that the Church would allow an adult female to be an alter VI>server. I kinda figured that once Bob's daughter was confirmed that VI>she would be pulled for this position. Isn't this awfully close to VI>allowing adult females to act as priests? Do you have any feelings on VI>the issue of whether women should be ordained as priests? No, the church allows females to be altar server because you(the altar server) is helping the priest. Women ministers are in other churchs othr than Cathiloc(Meaning that in some Christian faiths, women are the ones who would be a priest) I really not too sure about women being Priests in a Catlioc church. VI>NI> VI>NI>VI>Bob's kid goes to Catholic School and her favorite VI>NI>subject is religion VI>NI>VI> So she could definitely tell me. :) VI>NI>VI>I doubt THAT. She's still only 11 years old--she'll turn 12 in July. VI>NI> So, she may know what you want to know, even if she's only 11. VI>It's possible. I will have to ask her the next time I go to Church VI>with her and Bob. I don't know when that will be. I don't go with VI>them too often --it's kinda hard for me as a Jew to attend Catholic VI>services because so much of your liturgy refers to Jesus, the Trinity VI>and Mary. You're not used to this. VI>(Subsequent exchanges omitted.) --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (P)anic Date: Wednesday, May 27, 1998 7:09pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 746525 To: Vida Re: What Telushkin has to say about shaming others (Reply to #746514, Reply to #746506, Reply to #746494) (2 replies) VI>KK>VI>Telushkin argues that while it is morally justifable to rebuke someone VI>KK>VI>(and indeed sometimes morally REQUIRED to do so) that one must always VI>KK>VI>do so in such a manner as not to cause shame and humilation to the VI>KK>VI>person being corrected. VI>KK>I agree. Now what? VI>Well, if you agree on this point than doesn't support my position that VI>yelling at a person for violating the laws of Sabbath is not justifable? He yelled at the person to stop doing what he was doing. Like as if a child is about to cross into traffic you would yell, STOP! He did not berate the individual at all. You obviously do not see the desecrating of the Sabbath in the same light as this individual saw it. EVEN if he WAS wrong, atleast he felt he was saving someone else. He was not embarrassing the other person. I agree with you that one should not cause embarrassment to another even if you are correct in what you are saying. VI>KK>You did not need so many references. I agree with Telushkin. [B>Then that would require you to agree with me. :) I agree with you. [B Date: Wednesday, May 27, 1998 7:16pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 746526 To: Vida Re: More fuel for the fire (Reply to #746516, Reply to #746508, Reply to #746499, R*) (1 reply) VI>That still doesn't justify the behavior. It is rude to yell at another VI>person. 1. He did not yell AT. He yelled: Stop! 2. If you noticed a blind individual in the midst of taking a step that would cause him to fall down a flight of stairs and you were at the other end of the room), would you really say in a speaking tone of voice something like: Excuse me sir....etc.????? I'd yell out STOP!!!!!!!!! After he'd pause in surprise (hopefully), I'd explain why I yelled stop. Date: Thursday, May 28, 1998 4:03am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746528 To: Nightbird Re: Yarmulkes 1/2 (Reply to #746522, Reply to #746517, Reply to #746510, R*) (1 reply) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI> I personally believe that Jesus was a grea NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>earth to teach the lessons of Torah to the NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I agree with you to a certain point. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Of course you only agree with me to a certain poi NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Christian, I a Jew. But I think I give Jesus as m NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>possibly can, and still remain on the Jewish side NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>speak. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>True NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>The important point is that we respect each other diffe NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>common source we share. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>No problem with that. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>I didn't think you would have a problem with that. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>You know me too well. NI>VI>NI>VI>Thank you. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>(Intermediate exchanges ommitte NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Well, it starts after the readings & Gospel(when peo NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>gifts & it ends when people actually line up to rece NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>I am not that familiar with the portions of the mass, s NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>know what you are talking about. But Bob's daughter co NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>explain it all to me if I asked her. She has been an a NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>her parish church for the past two years. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>Not a bad idea(believe it or not, I'm also a altar server NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>long as Bob's daughter. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>They have adult altar servers at your parish church? At Bob' NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>the altar servers are all kids. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>I think I'm the only adult altar server, the rest are kids. NI>VI>NI>VI>So is that a compliment or an insult? How did that come to be? NI>VI>NI>No, I wanted to be an altar server, it's a compliment. Must adults int NI>VI>NI>parish who serve are readers or Communion servers. NI>VI>Yes, I have seen adults doing both at Bob's church. Any reason why NI>VI>you wanted to be an altar server, rather than a reader or Communion NI>VI>server? NI>I wanted to be an altar server NI>VI>Actually, I hope you are not insulted if I say this, but I am kinda NI>VI>surprised that the Church would allow an adult female to be an alter NI>VI>server. I kinda figured that once Bob's daughter was confirmed that NI>VI>she would be pulled for this position. Isn't this awfully close to NI>VI>allowing adult females to act as priests? Do you have any feelings on NI>VI>the issue of whether women should be ordained as priests? NI>No, the church allows females to be altar server because you(the altar NI>server) is helping the priest. NI>Women ministers are in other churchs othr than Cathiloc(Meaning that in NI>some Christian faiths, women are the ones who would be a priest) NI>I really not too sure about women being Priests in a Catlioc church. NI> VI>NI> VI>NI>VI>Bob's kid goes to Catholic School and her NI>favorite VI>NI>subject is religion VI>NI>VI> So she could definitely NI>tell me. :) NI>VI>NI>VI>I doubt THAT. She's still only 11 years old--she'll turn 12 in Jul NI>VI>NI> So, she may know what you want to know, even if she's only 11. NI>VI>It's possible. I will have to ask her the next time I go to Church NI>VI>with her and Bob. I don't know when that will be. I don't go with NI>VI>them too often --it's kinda hard for me as a Jew to attend Catholic NI>VI>services because so much of your liturgy refers to Jesus, the Trinity NI>VI>and Mary. NI>You're not used to this. NI>VI>(Subsequent exchanges omitted.) It's much deeper than not feeling comfortable with the liturgy or not being used to the liturgy. Remember, Judaism is the source religion while Catholicism is the offshot. There is nothing in our religion that is against the teachings of the Catholic Church. So a Catholic can attend a Jewish service and not feel that he or she is betraying the Catholic faith. However, on the other hand, all your litury regarding the Trinity and Mary does go against the central teachings of the Jewish faith. Additionally, there is the whole bitter history (from the Jewish perspective it is a bitter history) of the Inquistion and the horrible, horrible things that Jews had to endure at the hands of Catholics trying to force us to convert. So it is hard for me as a Jewish person not to feel that I am betraying my faith merely by being present in any Christian prayer meeting. Date: Thursday, May 28, 1998 7:11am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746529 To: Kkid Re: What Telushkin has to say about shaming others (Reply to #746525, Reply to #746514, Reply to #746506, R*) KK>VI>KK>VI>Telushkin argues that while it is morally justifable to rebuke some KK>VI>KK>VI>(and indeed sometimes morally REQUIRED to do so) that one must alwa KK>VI>KK>VI>do so in such a manner as not to cause shame and humilation to the KK>VI>KK>VI>person being corrected. KK>VI>KK>I agree. Now what? KK>VI>Well, if you agree on this point than doesn't support my position that KK>VI>yelling at a person for violating the laws of Sabbath is not justifable? KK>He yelled at the person to stop doing what he was doing. Like as if a KK>child is about to cross into traffic you would yell, STOP! KK>He did not berate the individual at all. You obviously do not see the KK>desecrating of the Sabbath in the same light as this individual saw it. KK>EVEN if he WAS wrong, atleast he felt he was saving someone else. KK>He was not embarrassing the other person. I agree with you that one KK>should not cause embarrassment to another even if you are correct in KK>what you are saying. I think at this point we are arguing in circles and should probably drop the discussion. I take the position that it is not justifable to treat an adult human being as a child, unless there is an ACTUAL life and death situation involved. You take the position that for an Orthodox Jew descretion of the Sabbath IS equivalent to a life and death situation. I can certainly understand your position. But imagine the consequences to my peace of mind if I accepted that position? Especially since I, for a variety of reasons, am NOT shammor Shabbos by ANY definition of the word! KK>VI>KK>You did not need so many references. I agree with Telushkin. KK>[B>Then that would require you to agree with me. :) KK>I agree with you. No, there is a critical point at which we disagree. But I don't think that any further discussion on this point would be fruitful. KK>[B Date: Thursday, May 28, 1998 7:11am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746530 To: Kkid Re: More fuel for the fire (Reply to #746526, Reply to #746516, Reply to #746508, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>That still doesn't justify the behavior. It is rude to yell at another KK>VI>person. KK>1. He did not yell AT. He yelled: Stop! KK>2. If you noticed a blind individual in the midst of taking a step that KK>would cause him to fall down a flight of stairs and you were at the KK>other end of the room), would you really say in a speaking tone of voice KK>something like: Excuse me sir....etc.????? KK>I'd yell out STOP!!!!!!!!! You may think this is an equivalent situation. I do not. KK>After he'd pause in surprise (hopefully), I'd explain why I yelled stop. Date: Thursday, May 28, 1998 2:26pm Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 746533 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes 1/2 (Reply to #746528, Reply to #746522, Reply to #746517, R*) (2 replies) VI>NI>VI>It's possible. I will have to ask her the next time I go to Church VI>NI>VI>with her and Bob. I don't know when that will be. I don't go with VI>NI>VI>them too often --it's kinda hard for me as a Jew to attend Catholic VI>NI>VI>services because so much of your liturgy refers to Jesus, the Trinity VI>NI>VI>and Mary. VI>NI>You're not used to this. VI>NI>VI>(Subsequent exchanges omitted.) VI>It's much deeper than not feeling comfortable with the liturgy or not VI>being used to the liturgy. Remember, Judaism is the source religion VI>while Catholicism is the offshot. There is nothing in our religion that VI>is against the teachings of the Catholic Church. So a Catholic can VI>attend a Jewish service and not feel that he or she is betraying the VI>Catholic faith. However, on the other hand, all your litury regarding VI>the Trinity and Mary does go against the central teachings of the Jewish VI>faith. Additionally, there is the whole bitter history (from the Jewish VI>perspective it is a bitter history) of the Inquistion and the horrible, VI>horrible things that Jews had to endure at the hands of Catholics trying VI>to force us to convert. So it is hard for me as a Jewish person not to VI>feel that I am betraying my faith merely by being present in any VI>Christian prayer meeting. But you must understand, I am Catholic & you are Jewish(not that I have a problem with this). Personally, if I went to a Jewish service, I would be lost because I may know a bit but not everything. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Press "+" to see another tagline. Date: Thursday, May 28, 1998 6:42pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 746534 To: Vida Re: More fuel for the fire (Reply to #746530, Reply to #746526, Reply to #746516, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>1. He did not yell AT. He yelled: Stop! VI>KK>2. If you noticed a blind individual in the midst of taking a step that VI>KK>would cause him to fall down a flight of stairs and you were at the VI>KK>other end of the room), would you really say in a speaking tone of voice VI>KK>something like: Excuse me sir....etc.????? VI>KK>I'd yell out STOP!!!!!!!!! VI>You may think this is an equivalent situation. I do not. I know that! Date: Friday, May 29, 1998 5:19am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746537 To: Nightbird Re: Yarmulkes 1/2 (Reply to #746533, Reply to #746528, Reply to #746522, R*) (1 reply) NI>VI>NI>VI>It's possible. I will have to ask her the next time I go to Church NI>VI>NI>VI>with her and Bob. I don't know when that will be. I don't go with NI>VI>NI>VI>them too often --it's kinda hard for me as a Jew to attend Catholic NI>VI>NI>VI>services because so much of your liturgy refers to Jesus, the Trin NI>VI>NI>VI>and Mary. NI>VI>NI>You're not used to this. NI>VI>NI>VI>(Subsequent exchanges omitted.) NI>VI>It's much deeper than not feeling comfortable with the liturgy or not NI>VI>being used to the liturgy. Remember, Judaism is the source religion NI>VI>while Catholicism is the offshot. There is nothing in our religion that NI>VI>is against the teachings of the Catholic Church. So a Catholic can NI>VI>attend a Jewish service and not feel that he or she is betraying the NI>VI>Catholic faith. However, on the other hand, all your litury regarding NI>VI>the Trinity and Mary does go against the central teachings of the Jewish NI>VI>faith. Additionally, there is the whole bitter history (from the Jewish NI>VI>perspective it is a bitter history) of the Inquistion and the horrible, NI>VI>horrible things that Jews had to endure at the hands of Catholics trying NI>VI>to force us to convert. So it is hard for me as a Jewish person not to NI>VI>feel that I am betraying my faith merely by being present in any NI>VI>Christian prayer meeting. NI>But you must understand, I am Catholic & you are Jewish(not that I have NI>a problem with this). NI>Personally, if I went to a Jewish service, I would be lost because I may NI>know a bit but not everything. It depends on whether you went to a Reform or a Conservative synagouge. If you went to me with BJ you would probably get very lost because the service is 90% in Hebrew. The prayer book has one page with the English and one page with the Hebrew so you would know somewhat what we were singing, but it would be very confusing. At the Reform synagogue, however, I think you would be ok. The Reform litury is 70% English. And any time they say a prayer in Hebrew they repeat it in English because they want to make sure that every one understands what they are saying. And you must definitely would, in all likelihood, feel very uncomfortable because the prayer service is most likely to be 100% in Hebrew. More importantly you would find it hard to tolerate the sexual segregration that is practiced in Orthodox synagogues, but I can't tolerate that either! Date: Friday, May 29, 1998 5:22am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746538 To: Kkid Re: More fuel for the fire (Reply to #746534, Reply to #746530, Reply to #746526, R*) KK>VI>KK>1. He did not yell AT. He yelled: Stop! KK>VI>KK>2. If you noticed a blind individual in the midst of taking a step tha KK>VI>KK>would cause him to fall down a flight of stairs and you were at the KK>VI>KK>other end of the room), would you really say in a speaking tone of voi KK>VI>KK>something like: Excuse me sir....etc.????? KK>VI>KK>I'd yell out STOP!!!!!!!!! KK>VI>You may think this is an equivalent situation. I do not. KK>I know that! I know you know. That's why I suggested we end this discussion. There comes a point in any discussion when people who honestly disagree just go round and round in circles. I am not going to convince you to change your opinion on this matter, because it is a central part of your religious beliefs, and I respect that. You are not going to convince me to change my beliefs in this matter. And I think the two of us don't want to degenerate to the point where we are beating up on each other, since I find that very, very distastful. Date: Friday, May 29, 1998 10:49am Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 746540 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes 1/2 (Reply to #746537, Reply to #746533, Reply to #746528, R*) (1 reply) VI>I>VI>NI>VI>It's possible. I will have to ask her the next time I go to Chur VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>with her and Bob. I don't know when that will be. I don't go w VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>them too often --it's kinda hard for me as a Jew to attend Catho VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>services because so much of your liturgy refers to Jesus, the T VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>and Mary. VI>NI>VI>NI>You're not used to this. VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>(Subsequent exchanges omitted.) VI>NI>VI>It's much deeper than not feeling comfortable with the liturgy or not VI>NI>VI>being used to the liturgy. Remember, Judaism is the source religion VI>NI>VI>while Catholicism is the offshot. There is nothing in our religion th VI>NI>VI>is against the teachings of the Catholic Church. So a Catholic can VI>NI>VI>attend a Jewish service and not feel that he or she is betraying the VI>NI>VI>Catholic faith. However, on the other hand, all your litury regarding VI>NI>VI>the Trinity and Mary does go against the central teachings of the Jewi VI>NI>VI>faith. Additionally, there is the whole bitter history (from the Jewi VI>NI>VI>perspective it is a bitter history) of the Inquistion and the horrible VI>NI>VI>horrible things that Jews had to endure at the hands of Catholics tryi VI>NI>VI>to force us to convert. So it is hard for me as a Jewish person not t VI>NI>VI>feel that I am betraying my faith merely by being present in any VI>NI>VI>Christian prayer meeting. VI>NI>But you must understand, I am Catholic & you are Jewish(not that I have VI>NI>a problem with this). VI>NI>Personally, if I went to a Jewish service, I would be lost because I may VI>NI>know a bit but not everything. VI>It depends on whether you went to a Reform or a Conservative synagouge. VI>If you went to me with BJ you would probably get very lost because the VI>service is 90% in Hebrew. The prayer book has one page with the English VI>and one page with the Hebrew so you would know somewhat what we were VI>singing, but it would be very confusing. At the Reform synagogue, VI>however, I think you would be ok. The Reform litury is 70% English. VI>And any time they say a prayer in Hebrew they repeat it in English VI>because they want to make sure that every one understands what they are VI>saying. And you must definitely would, in all likelihood, feel very VI>uncomfortable because the prayer service is most likely to be 100% in VI>Hebrew. More importantly you would find it hard to tolerate the sexual VI>segregration that is practiced in Orthodox synagogues, but I can't VI>tolerate that either! I don't deal well with sexual segregration. I think it's really demeaning & not fair. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ MSI - Bringing it all together in '92 Date: Saturday, May 30, 1998 9:32am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746548 To: Nightbird Re: Yarmulkes 1/2 (Reply to #746540, Reply to #746537, Reply to #746533, R*) (2 replies) NI>VI>I>VI>NI>VI>It's possible. I will have to ask her the next time I go to C NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>with her and Bob. I don't know when that will be. I don't g NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>them too often --it's kinda hard for me as a Jew to attend Ca NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>services because so much of your liturgy refers to Jesus, th NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>and Mary. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>You're not used to this. NI>VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>(Subsequent exchanges omitted.) NI>VI>NI>VI>It's much deeper than not feeling comfortable with the liturgy or n NI>VI>NI>VI>being used to the liturgy. Remember, Judaism is the source religio NI>VI>NI>VI>while Catholicism is the offshot. There is nothing in our religion NI>VI>NI>VI>is against the teachings of the Catholic Church. So a Catholic can NI>VI>NI>VI>attend a Jewish service and not feel that he or she is betraying th NI>VI>NI>VI>Catholic faith. However, on the other hand, all your litury regard NI>VI>NI>VI>the Trinity and Mary does go against the central teachings of the J NI>VI>NI>VI>faith. Additionally, there is the whole bitter history (from the J NI>VI>NI>VI>perspective it is a bitter history) of the Inquistion and the horri NI>VI>NI>VI>horrible things that Jews had to endure at the hands of Catholics t NI>VI>NI>VI>to force us to convert. So it is hard for me as a Jewish person no NI>VI>NI>VI>feel that I am betraying my faith merely by being present in any NI>VI>NI>VI>Christian prayer meeting. NI>VI>NI>But you must understand, I am Catholic & you are Jewish(not that I hav NI>VI>NI>a problem with this). NI>VI>NI>Personally, if I went to a Jewish service, I would be lost because I m NI>VI>NI>know a bit but not everything. NI>VI>It depends on whether you went to a Reform or a Conservative synagouge. NI>VI>If you went to me with BJ you would probably get very lost because the NI>VI>service is 90% in Hebrew. The prayer book has one page with the English NI>VI>and one page with the Hebrew so you would know somewhat what we were NI>VI>singing, but it would be very confusing. At the Reform synagogue, NI>VI>however, I think you would be ok. The Reform litury is 70% English. NI>VI>And any time they say a prayer in Hebrew they repeat it in English NI>VI>because they want to make sure that every one understands what they are NI>VI>saying. And you must definitely would, in all likelihood, feel very NI>VI>uncomfortable because the prayer service is most likely to be 100% in NI>VI>Hebrew. More importantly you would find it hard to tolerate the sexual NI>VI>segregration that is practiced in Orthodox synagogues, but I can't NI>VI>tolerate that either! NI>I don't deal well with sexual segregration. I think it's really NI>demeaning & not fair. I don't much like it very well either. But I am not going to bash Orthodox Judaism, especially in a conversation with a nonJew. You should realize that Orthodox Jews are not the only religious group that seperate the sexes. Muslims also seperate the sexes. Indeed, since the Jews are Semetic people and co-existed with Arabs for centuries, I believe that Jews may actually have copied the practice of seperating the sexes from the Muslims. Muslims have been the controlling group in the mid East since approximately 630 CE. I don't know if you are familiar with the terms CE and BCE. For obvious reasons, Jewish people avoid using the terms BC and AD. Instead, we use the terms CE which means Common Era to refer to the period after the birth of Jesus. BCE means Before Common Era, refers to the period before the birth of Jesus. Date: Saturday, May 30, 1998 12:25pm Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 746551 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes 1/2 (Reply to #746548, Reply to #746540, Reply to #746537, R*) (2 replies) VI>NI>VI>Hebrew. More importantly you would find it hard to tolerate the sexual VI>NI>VI>segregration that is practiced in Orthodox synagogues, but I can't VI>NI>VI>tolerate that either! VI>NI>I don't deal well with sexual segregration. I think it's really VI>NI>demeaning & not fair. VI>I don't much like it very well either. But I am not going to bash VI>Orthodox Judaism, especially in a conversation with a nonJew. VI>You should realize that Orthodox Jews are not the only religious group VI>that seperate the sexes. Muslims also seperate the sexes. VI>Indeed, since the Jews are Semetic people and co-existed with Arabs for VI>centuries, I believe that Jews may actually have copied the practice of VI>seperating the sexes from the Muslims. Muslims have been the VI>controlling group in the mid East since approximately 630 CE. VI>I don't know if you are familiar with the terms CE and BCE. For VI>obvious reasons, Jewish people avoid using the terms BC and AD. VI>Instead, we use the terms CE which means Common Era to refer to the VI>period after the birth of Jesus. BCE means Before Common Era, refers VI>to the period before the birth of Jesus. I'm familiar with those those, although I rather use BC & AD. Even in the Cathlic Church, the sexes are somewhat seperated, which truly annoys me because the first person Christ appeared to was a Women. I'm not even going to bash Orthodox Judaism or Muslims because even if I don't see eye to eye with them, I'm not goint to disrecept any relioun. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ It's only a hobby ... only a hobby ... only a Date: Sunday, May 31, 1998 9:11am Forum: Theology From: Editor Msg#: 746555 To: Kkid Re: What Telushkin has to say about shaming others (Reply to #746525, Reply to #746514, Reply to #746506, R*) (1 reply) K >VI>KK>VI>Telushkin argues that while it is morally justifable to rebuk K >VI>KK>VI>(and indeed sometimes morally REQUIRED to do so) that one mus K >VI>KK>VI>do so in such a manner as not to cause shame and humilation t K >VI>KK>VI>person being corrected. K > K >VI>KK>I agree. Now what? K > K >VI>Well, if you agree on this point than doesn't support my position t K >VI>yelling at a person for violating the laws of Sabbath is not justif K > K >He yelled at the person to stop doing what he was doing. Like as if a K >child is about to cross into traffic you would yell, STOP! K >He did not berate the individual at all. You obviously do not see the K >desecrating of the Sabbath in the same light as this individual saw it K >EVEN if he WAS wrong, atleast he felt he was saving someone else. K >He was not embarrassing the other person. I agree with you that one K >should not cause embarrassment to another even if you are correct in K >what you are saying. This discussion puts me in mind of a shul in Forest Hills. This one is like a model for the jokes about "the shul I woudn't pray in if you paid me". I was attending a bar mitzvah there, and towards the end of the service, as they started the mourner's kaddish, someone got in late. As they finished and moved forward with the service, the latecomer started shouting "Not done... not done... kaddish", but the rabbi moved forward relentlessly, and the "mourner" finally shouted something indecipherable and slammed his siddur into some piece of furniture so hard that he nearly broke it. More amazing, the regulars at the shul were so used to this type of controversy (as opposed to this type of activity) that no one really seemed upset. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Sunday, May 31, 1998 9:11am Forum: Theology From: Editor Msg#: 746556 To: Nightbird Re: Yarmulkes 1/2 (Reply to #746533, Reply to #746528, Reply to #746522, R*) (2 replies) N >But you must understand, I am Catholic & you are Jewish(not that I hav N >a problem with this). N >Personally, if I went to a Jewish service, I would be lost because I m N >know a bit but not everything. I think what Vida is saying goes deeper than this. Judaism has a deep dose of well deserved paranoia. From ancient times when it stood alone in fighting the "idolators" to the more recent history of ugly events being Jewish amongst non-Jews has not always been healthy. There are also outright prohibitions against "participating" (loosely worded, I'm sure Sheldon will correct me) in a non-Jewish service. I have attended many a non-Jewish event, and I can't get comfortable. No, its even stronger than that, I get nervous. It goes far beyond just not understanding what is happening. I find it embarassing that I can't overcome it, but that is what it is. In this vein, have you ever seen the "God Squad", Monsignor Tom Hartman and Rabbi Mark Gellman, or as Imus calls them "the priest and the rabbi". Its delightful to watch the genuine respect and friendship at work there. Makes me think there is hope for the world yet. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Sunday, May 31, 1998 12:04pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746563 To: Nightbird Re: Yarmulkes 1/2 (Reply to #746551, Reply to #746548, Reply to #746540, R*) Date: Sunday, May 31, 1998 12:05pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746564 To: Nightbird Re: Yarmulkes 1/2 (Reply to #746551, Reply to #746548, Reply to #746540, R*) (1 reply) NI>VI>NI>VI>Hebrew. More importantly you would find it hard to tolerate the sex NI>VI>NI>VI>segregration that is practiced in Orthodox synagogues, but I can't NI>VI>NI>VI>tolerate that either! NI>VI>NI>I don't deal well with sexual segregration. I think it's really NI>VI>NI>demeaning & not fair. NI>VI>I don't much like it very well either. But I am not going to bash NI>VI>Orthodox Judaism, especially in a conversation with a nonJew. NI>VI>You should realize that Orthodox Jews are not the only religious group NI>VI>that seperate the sexes. Muslims also seperate the sexes. NI>VI>Indeed, since the Jews are Semetic people and co-existed with Arabs for NI>VI>centuries, I believe that Jews may actually have copied the practice of NI>VI>seperating the sexes from the Muslims. Muslims have been the NI>VI>controlling group in the mid East since approximately 630 CE. NI>VI>I don't know if you are familiar with the terms CE and BCE. For NI>VI>obvious reasons, Jewish people avoid using the terms BC and AD. NI>VI>Instead, we use the terms CE which means Common Era to refer to the NI>VI>period after the birth of Jesus. BCE means Before Common Era, refers NI>VI>to the period before the birth of Jesus. NI>I'm familiar with those those, although I rather use BC & AD. NI>Even in the Cathlic Church, the sexes are somewhat seperated, which NI>truly annoys me because the first person Christ appeared to was a Women. NI>I'm not even going to bash Orthodox Judaism or Muslims because even if I NI>don't see eye to eye with them, I'm not goint to disrecept any relioun. NI>--- I didn't think you would bush any religion. After all, you are a true lady. I was just explaining to you why I was refraining from continuing in a conversation that I was afraid would deginerate into bashing any strain of Judaism. Date: Sunday, May 31, 1998 12:06pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746565 To: Editor Re: What Telushkin has to say about shaming others (Reply to #746555, Reply to #746525, Reply to #746514, R*) ED>K >VI>KK>VI>Telushkin argues that while it is morally justifable to rebuk ED>K >VI>KK>VI>(and indeed sometimes morally REQUIRED to do so) that one mus ED>K >VI>KK>VI>do so in such a manner as not to cause shame and humilation t ED>K >VI>KK>VI>person being corrected. ED>K > ED>K >VI>KK>I agree. Now what? ED>K > ED>K >VI>Well, if you agree on this point than doesn't support my position t ED>K >VI>yelling at a person for violating the laws of Sabbath is not justif ED>K > ED>K >He yelled at the person to stop doing what he was doing. Like as if a ED>K >child is about to cross into traffic you would yell, STOP! ED>K >He did not berate the individual at all. You obviously do not see the ED>K >desecrating of the Sabbath in the same light as this individual saw it ED>K >EVEN if he WAS wrong, atleast he felt he was saving someone else. ED>K >He was not embarrassing the other person. I agree with you that one ED>K >should not cause embarrassment to another even if you are correct in ED>K >what you are saying. ED>This discussion puts me in mind of a shul in Forest Hills. This one is like ED>a model for the jokes about "the shul I woudn't pray in if you paid me". I ED>was attending a bar mitzvah there, and towards the end of the service, as ED>they started the mourner's kaddish, someone got in late. As they finished ED>and moved forward with the service, the latecomer started shouting "Not ED>done... not done... kaddish", but the rabbi moved forward relentlessly, and ED>the "mourner" finally shouted something indecipherable and slammed his ED>siddur into some piece of furniture so hard that he nearly broke it. ED>More amazing, the regulars at the shul were so used to this type of ED>controversy (as opposed to this type of activity) that no one really seemed ED>upset. OY! What craziness! :) Date: Sunday, May 31, 1998 12:10pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746566 To: Editor Re: Yarmulkes 1/2 (Reply to #746556, Reply to #746533, Reply to #746528, R*) (1 reply) ED>N >But you must understand, I am Catholic & you are Jewish(not that I hav ED>N >a problem with this). ED>N >Personally, if I went to a Jewish service, I would be lost because I m ED>N >know a bit but not everything. ED>I think what Vida is saying goes deeper than this. Judaism has a deep dose ED>of well deserved paranoia. From ancient times when it stood alone in ED>fighting the "idolators" to the more recent history of ugly events being ED>Jewish amongst non-Jews has not always been healthy. There are also ED>outright prohibitions against "participating" (loosely worded, I'm sure ED>Sheldon will correct me) in a non-Jewish service. I have attended many a ED>non-Jewish event, and I can't get comfortable. No, its even stronger than ED>that, I get nervous. It goes far beyond just not understanding what is ED>happening. I find it embarassing that I can't overcome it, but that is what ED>it is. Thank you Jack from explaining to Marie some of what I feel! Just looking at the big crucifix in front of the church makes me feel, on some level, that I am betraying my people by sitting beside my lover in his church. ED>In this vein, have you ever seen the "God Squad", Monsignor Tom Hartman and ED>Rabbi Mark Gellman, or as Imus calls them "the priest and the rabbi". Its ED>delightful to watch the genuine respect and friendship at work there. Makes ED>me think there is hope for the world yet. There was also a piece in this week's "New York Jewish Week" that Hebrew Union College gave Cardinal John O'Connor an honory degree in Theology from HUC. So that's a hopeful sign. But HUC is the Reform Seminary, of course. I can't image even JTS, the Conservative Seminary doing such a thing. Date: Sunday, May 31, 1998 1:17pm Forum: Theology From: Editor Msg#: 746571 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes 1/2 (Reply to #746566, Reply to #746556, Reply to #746533, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>In this vein, have you ever seen the "God Squad", Monsignor Tom Har V >ED>Rabbi Mark Gellman, or as Imus calls them "the priest and the rabbi V >ED>delightful to watch the genuine respect and friendship at work ther V >ED>me think there is hope for the world yet. V > V > V >There was also a piece in this week's "New York Jewish Week" that V >Hebrew Union College gave Cardinal John O'Connor an honory degree in V >Theology from HUC. So that's a hopeful sign. V > V >But HUC is the Reform Seminary, of course. I can't image even JTS, th V >Conservative Seminary doing such a thing. Well... there is hope out there. The powers that be (at least the Catholic ones) seem to be making an increasing effort to deal with this. Same on the Jewish side. Don't know how long it will last. When that church burned down in Brooklyn a few years ago, our shul made a donation to the rebuilding fund. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Sunday, May 31, 1998 3:09pm Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 746575 To: Editor Re: Yarmulkes 1/2 (Reply to #746556, Reply to #746533, Reply to #746528, R*) (1 reply) ED>N >But you must understand, I am Catholic & you are Jewish(not that I hav ED>N >a problem with this). ED>N >Personally, if I went to a Jewish service, I would be lost because I m ED>N >know a bit but not everything. ED>I think what Vida is saying goes deeper than this. Judaism has a deep dose ED>of well deserved paranoia. From ancient times when it stood alone in ED>fighting the "idolators" to the more recent history of ugly events being ED>Jewish amongst non-Jews has not always been healthy. There are also ED>outright prohibitions against "participating" (loosely worded, I'm sure ED>Sheldon will correct me) in a non-Jewish service. I have attended many a ED>non-Jewish event, and I can't get comfortable. No, its even stronger than ED>that, I get nervous. It goes far beyond just not understanding what is ED>happening. I find it embarassing that I can't overcome it, but that is what ED>it is. I understand that but somethings can go both ways on that subject. ED>In this vein, have you ever seen the "God Squad", Monsignor Tom Hartman and ED>Rabbi Mark Gellman, or as Imus calls them "the priest and the rabbi". Its ED>delightful to watch the genuine respect and friendship at work there. Makes ED>me think there is hope for the world yet. I have not seen the "God Squad" but have read about them. My personal feeling is that it's the same God, we all just worship Him diffrently. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Short book: A Journey through the Mind of Dennis Rodman Date: Sunday, May 31, 1998 3:09pm Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 746576 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes 1/2 (Reply to #746564, Reply to #746551, Reply to #746548, R*) VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>Hebrew. More importantly you would find it hard to tolerate the VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>segregration that is practiced in Orthodox synagogues, but I can VI>NI>VI>NI>VI>tolerate that either! VI>NI>VI>NI>I don't deal well with sexual segregration. I think it's really VI>NI>VI>NI>demeaning & not fair. VI>NI>VI>I don't much like it very well either. But I am not going to bash VI>NI>VI>Orthodox Judaism, especially in a conversation with a nonJew. VI>NI>VI>You should realize that Orthodox Jews are not the only religious group VI>NI>VI>that seperate the sexes. Muslims also seperate the sexes. VI>NI>VI>Indeed, since the Jews are Semetic people and co-existed with Arabs fo VI>NI>VI>centuries, I believe that Jews may actually have copied the practice o VI>NI>VI>seperating the sexes from the Muslims. Muslims have been the VI>NI>VI>controlling group in the mid East since approximately 630 CE. VI>NI>VI>I don't know if you are familiar with the terms CE and BCE. For VI>NI>VI>obvious reasons, Jewish people avoid using the terms BC and AD. VI>NI>VI>Instead, we use the terms CE which means Common Era to refer to the VI>NI>VI>period after the birth of Jesus. BCE means Before Common Era, refers VI>NI>VI>to the period before the birth of Jesus. VI>NI>I'm familiar with those those, although I rather use BC & AD. VI>NI>Even in the Cathlic Church, the sexes are somewhat seperated, which VI>NI>truly annoys me because the first person Christ appeared to was a Women. VI>NI>I'm not even going to bash Orthodox Judaism or Muslims because even if I VI>NI>don't see eye to eye with them, I'm not goint to disrecept any relioun. VI>NI>--- VI>I didn't think you would bush any religion. After all, you are a true VI>lady. I was just explaining to you why I was refraining from VI>continuing in a conversation that I was afraid would deginerate into VI>bashing any strain of VI>Judaism. I thank you for the complainment(sorry about the spelling). This isn't going to deginerate into bashing any type of Relgion. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Flattery is fine, as long as you don't inhale. Date: Sunday, May 31, 1998 8:07pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746580 To: ** ALL ** Re: Upcoming event I didn't know whether to post this annoucement in /CurrentEvents or here in /Theology. But I think it has more to do with religion than politics. From: Add to Address Book To: BRIDGES: the Jewish Feminist journal Subject: October 11/ Willows Weeping for the Wounded Earth YOU ARE INVITED TO... CELEBRATE OUR RIVERS! DEMAND CLEAN WATER! DANCE WITH THE TORAH AND THE EARTH! DISCOVER THE ANCIENT WISDOM OF HOSHANA RABBAH! SAVE THE DATE!! On OCTOBER 11, 1998, The Shalom Center and Elat Chayyim Retreat Center will be bringing people together from all over the East Coast to celebrate Hoshana Rabbah, the 7th day of Sukkot, as a healing ritual for the Earth and all its inhabitants. We will gather on the Hudson River in Poughkeepsie, NY and use the traditional forms of the Hoshana Rabbah celebration to call on the healing of this and all rivers from the toxic abuse of General Electric and such corporations which have been polluting our waters with PCBs and other substances. We have been discussing our plans -- and expect to work out some cooperation -- with the Interfaith Center for Corporate Responsibility, the Tri-State Center for Corporate Responsibility and the Sloop Clearwater (the sailing vessel sponsored by Pete Seeger, which in October holds a Pumpkin Sail festival on the Hudson.) Several synagogues in the Hudson Valley and in New York City are also exploring how to involve their members as part of this historic event. We hope to have as many organizations and individuals as possible join us in this interfaith, yet Jewishly rooted, celebration. The observance will include seven dances/ processions with the Torah, beating willow branches on the earth, and seven sets of Hoshana prayers ("Hoshana Na" which in Hebrew is a prayer directed to God saying "Please save us," is the origin of the English word "Hosanna.") PLEASE forward this message to any people and any electronic lists of which you are a part! We look forward to seeing you there! FOR MORE INFORMATION on how to get involved and how to get your organization involved, contact the Shalom Center SHALOMCTR@AOL.COM PHONE 215-247-9700 x25, FAX 215/2467-9703 I am sure that BJ will be one of the NY synagogues that will participate in this event. When I hear more, I will pass it on here. Date: Monday, June 1, 1998 6:59am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746583 To: ** ALL ** Re: Shavout at the Kotel This was posted by Andy Sacks, the more or less official spokesman for the Masorti/Conservative movement in Israel. It is good news that the police finally protected Masorti Jews and that they were able to complete a prayer service in peace at this holy place. It is still horrible that certain hoodlums had to try to attack peaceful people at pray simply because they don't agree with the practices of that group. From: Andy Sacks Subject: Shavuot at the Kotel To: MASORTI@JTSA.EDU The following account of Shavuot morning davening at the Kotel appeared in Monday's Ha'Arezt (I remind you that Monday is not a Hag in Israel). The Movement did not officially organize a Minyan. Yet, several hundred daveners came. I would like to point out that our people acted in an exemplary manner. We came. We prayed, and we left. Two days before, the Chief Rabbis had insisted in a letter they sent to the "Holy Places Authority," that the police act to see that we not be permitted to pray. This is the first time that the police saw to it that our group indeed was allowed to pray. Monday, June 1, 1998 Shavuot first: Conservatives pray at Kotel Ultra-Orthodox rampage against Arabs in Old City By Shahar Ilan and Sami Sockol, Ha'aretz Correspondents Some 300 Conservative Jews conducted a two-hour mixed prayer service at the Western Wall yesterday, unhindered by police. Several hundred ultra-Orthodox Jews who surrounded the Conservative group, however, yelled insults and hurled objects at them. Hundreds of ultra-Orthodox youth also threw stones at Arabs and attacked their property on their way home from prayers at the Western Wall yesterday morning. It is customary on Shavuot to study through the night and then go to the Western Wall in Jerusalem. By 5 A.M. yesterday, the Wall plaza was filled with worshipers. The Conservatives gathered in the eastern corner of the Western Wall parking lot. The Conservatives were certain they would be removed from the site the moment they began to pray so they opened with two songs. When they began the Shaharit morning prayer, the police surprised them by not reacting. A ring of approximately 100 police officers encircled the worshipers, followed by another ring of several hundred ultra-Orthodox men. Most of the other worshipers in the plaza showed no interest in the goings on. At first, the ultra-Orthodox confined themselves to yelling noisily and throwing scraps of paper. There were also those who handed out pamphlets to the ultra-Orthodox with a "declaration against violence by the sages of Israel." But the barrage of objects escalated to include an empty plastic bucket that landed in the middle of the group of Conservatives, bags of chocolate milk, one of which splattered on the heads of several worshipers, bottles and bags filled with water. One Haredi youth who was seen hurling something at the worshipers was arrested. As the prayer service continued, despite the disruptions, more women took a central part. By 6 A.M. one of the female worshipers began to read from the Book of Ruth. Ten minutes later, they produced a Torah and began reading the chapter containing the Ten Commandments. Women, some in prayer shawls and kippas, made up the majority of those called to read from the Torah. About half an hour before the end of the service, the Haredim and the police began to clash, and shortly after 7 A.M. the Conservative worshipers left without incident. Following the morning prayers, thousands of ultra-Orthodox made their way through the Old City in the direction of Damascus Gate. Along the way, Haredi youths smeared contact glue on locks on the doors of a number of Arab-owned shops and smashed the windshields of cars. When they arrived at Damascus Gate, hundreds began throwing stones in the direction of Palestinian-owned shops. Palestinian youths responded in kind. Police used force to disperse both sides, and stones were hurled from both sides at the police as well. Nine Palestinians suffered injuries. One was moderately wounded by a stone in his head and was taken to al Maqassid Hospital for treatment; the others were lightly wounded. Four ultra-Orthodox Jews and two policemen were lightly wounded. Four Arabs and one Jew were detained for questioning. Date: Monday, June 1, 1998 7:27am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746587 To: Editor Re: Yarmulkes 1/2 (Reply to #746571, Reply to #746566, Reply to #746556, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >ED>In this vein, have you ever seen the "God Squad", Monsignor Tom Har ED>V >ED>Rabbi Mark Gellman, or as Imus calls them "the priest and the rabbi ED>V >ED>delightful to watch the genuine respect and friendship at work ther ED>V >ED>me think there is hope for the world yet. ED>V > ED>V > ED>V >There was also a piece in this week's "New York Jewish Week" that ED>V >Hebrew Union College gave Cardinal John O'Connor an honory degree in ED>V >Theology from HUC. So that's a hopeful sign. ED>V > ED>V >But HUC is the Reform Seminary, of course. I can't image even JTS, th ED>V >Conservative Seminary doing such a thing. ED>Well... there is hope out there. The powers that be (at least the ED>Catholic ones) seem to be making an increasing effort to deal with ED>this. Same on the Jewish side. Don't know how long it will last. When that ED>church burned down in Brooklyn a few years ago, our shul made a donation to ED>the rebuilding fund. I have mixed feelings re: the Catholic apology re: the Holocaust. On the one hand, it WAS some attempt to deal with Christian complicity in the extermination of the Jews during the Holocaust. On the other hand, it was so inadequate. It especially totally skirted around how the history of Christian/Catholic antisemitism created the atomsphere in which the Holocaust could happen. Date: Monday, June 1, 1998 7:31am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746588 To: Nightbird Re: Yarmulkes 1/2 (Reply to #746575, Reply to #746556, Reply to #746533, R*) NI>ED>N >But you must understand, I am Catholic & you are Jewish(not that I hav NI>ED>N >a problem with this). NI>ED>N >Personally, if I went to a Jewish service, I would be lost because I m NI>ED>N >know a bit but not everything. NI>ED>I think what Vida is saying goes deeper than this. Judaism has a deep dos NI>ED>of well deserved paranoia. From ancient times when it stood alone in NI>ED>fighting the "idolators" to the more recent history of ugly events being NI>ED>Jewish amongst non-Jews has not always been healthy. There are also NI>ED>outright prohibitions against "participating" (loosely worded, I'm sure NI>ED>Sheldon will correct me) in a non-Jewish service. I have attended many a NI>ED>non-Jewish event, and I can't get comfortable. No, its even stronger than NI>ED>that, I get nervous. It goes far beyond just not understanding what is NI>ED>happening. I find it embarassing that I can't overcome it, but that is wh NI>ED>it is. NI>I understand that but somethings can go both ways on that subject. No, Marie. It is NOT the same thing for a Catholic to feel uncomfortable in a Jewish prayer service. There is not the same history of Jewish oppression of Catholic people. Plus, nothing that we believe in contradicts any part of the Catholic faith. NI>ED>In this vein, have you ever seen the "God Squad", Monsignor Tom Hartman a NI>ED>Rabbi Mark Gellman, or as Imus calls them "the priest and the rabbi". Its NI>ED>delightful to watch the genuine respect and friendship at work there. Mak NI>ED>me think there is hope for the world yet. NI>I have not seen the "God Squad" but have read about them. My personal NI>feeling is that it's the same God, we all just worship Him diffrently. NI>--- On that point, you and I totally agree. :) Date: Monday, June 1, 1998 9:58am Forum: Theology From: Editor Msg#: 746593 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes 1/2 (Reply to #746587, Reply to #746571, Reply to #746566, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>Well... there is hope out there. The powers that be (at least the V >ED>Catholic ones) seem to be making an increasing effort to deal with V >ED>this. Same on the Jewish side. Don't know how long it will last. Wh V >ED>church burned down in Brooklyn a few years ago, our shul made a don V >ED>the rebuilding fund. V > V >I have mixed feelings re: the Catholic apology re: the Holocaust. V > V >On the one hand, it WAS some attempt to deal with Christian complicity V >in the extermination of the Jews during the Holocaust. On the other V >hand, it was so inadequate. It especially totally skirted around how V >the history of Christian/Catholic antisemitism created the atomsphere V >in which the Holocaust could happen. But its a start. Moving away from this whole business of "The Jews killed Jesus". Its a great start. I don't expect miracles, but a good start means that 30, maybe 40 years down the road, this kind of thing will slip OUT of the general mold of thinking. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Monday, June 1, 1998 7:33pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746597 To: Editor Re: Yarmulkes 1/2 (Reply to #746593, Reply to #746587, Reply to #746571, R*) (1 reply) ED>V >ED>Well... there is hope out there. The powers that be (at least the ED>V >ED>Catholic ones) seem to be making an increasing effort to deal with ED>V >ED>this. Same on the Jewish side. Don't know how long it will last. Wh ED>V >ED>church burned down in Brooklyn a few years ago, our shul made a don ED>V >ED>the rebuilding fund. ED>V > ED>V >I have mixed feelings re: the Catholic apology re: the Holocaust. ED>V > ED>V >On the one hand, it WAS some attempt to deal with Christian complicity ED>V >in the extermination of the Jews during the Holocaust. On the other ED>V >hand, it was so inadequate. It especially totally skirted around how ED>V >the history of Christian/Catholic antisemitism created the atomsphere ED>V >in which the Holocaust could happen. ED>But its a start. Moving away from this whole business of "The Jews killed ED>Jesus". Have they REALLY moved away from this? The entire story of the trial and cruxification of Jesus as depicted in the Gospels was intentionally designed to shift the blame away from the Romans to the Jews. ED>Its a great start. I don't expect miracles, but a good start means ED>that 30, maybe 40 years down the road, this kind of thing will slip OUT of ED>the general mold of thinking. Only time will tell my friend. Only time will tell. Date: Tuesday, June 2, 1998 8:19am Forum: Theology From: Editor Msg#: 746601 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes 1/2 (Reply to #746597, Reply to #746593, Reply to #746587, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>But its a start. Moving away from this whole business of "The Jews V >ED>Jesus". V > V >Have they REALLY moved away from this? The entire story of the trial V >and cruxification of Jesus as depicted in the Gospels was intentionall V >designed to shift the blame away from the Romans to the Jews. Someone jump in and help me here, but isn't the current position that it was the Romans and not the Jews who killed Jesus? --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Wednesday, June 3, 1998 8:24am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746606 To: Editor Re: Yarmulkes 1/2 (Reply to #746601, Reply to #746597, Reply to #746593, R*) ED>V >ED>But its a start. Moving away from this whole business of "The Jews ED>V >ED>Jesus". ED>V > ED>V >Have they REALLY moved away from this? The entire story of the trial ED>V >and cruxification of Jesus as depicted in the Gospels was intentionall ED>V >designed to shift the blame away from the Romans to the Jews. ED>Someone jump in and help me here, but isn't the current position that it ED>was the Romans and not the Jews who killed Jesus? That's the official line. However, hey still teach the story of the cruxicification as depicted in the Gospels. And that story implicitly and explicity blames the Jews for the death of Jesus. ED>--- ED> þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Wednesday, June 3, 1998 10:26pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 746616 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes 1/2 (Reply to #746548, Reply to #746540, Reply to #746537, R*) (1 reply) VI>You should realize that Orthodox Jews are not the only religious group VI>that seperate the sexes. Muslims also seperate the sexes. VI>Indeed, since the Jews are Semetic people and co-existed with Arabs for VI>centuries, I believe that Jews may actually have copied the practice of VI>seperating the sexes from the Muslims. Muslims have been the VI>controlling group in the mid East since approximately 630 CE. Didn't the Jewish religion come before the Muslim religion? Even in the bible we are told that Sarah was in her own tent and did not mingle with the men. Rashi in numerous places points out that this was a plus on her part. Date: Sunday, June 7, 1998 12:15pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746646 To: Kkid Re: Yarmulkes 1/2 (Reply to #746616, Reply to #746548, Reply to #746540, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>You should realize that Orthodox Jews are not the only religious group KK>VI>that seperate the sexes. Muslims also seperate the sexes. KK>VI>Indeed, since the Jews are Semetic people and co-existed with Arabs for KK>VI>centuries, I believe that Jews may actually have copied the practice of KK>VI>seperating the sexes from the Muslims. Muslims have been the KK>VI>controlling group in the mid East since approximately 630 CE. KK>Didn't the Jewish religion come before the Muslim religion? KK>Even in the bible we are told that Sarah was in her own tent and did not KK>mingle with the men. Rashi in numerous places points out that this was a KK>plus on her part. Of course the Jewish religion came first. The Muslim religion came after the Christian religion, which in turn came after the Jewish religion. The fact that the Jewish religion came first does not mean that Jews were not influenced by Muslims. After all, Maimonides wrote his "Guide for the Preplexed' in Arabic because he wanted the widest possible audience. Rashi lived from 1040 CE until 1105 CE--after the Muslim religion came into existence. Date: Sunday, June 7, 1998 4:59pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 746650 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes 1/2 (Reply to #746646, Reply to #746616, Reply to #746548, R*) (1 reply) VI>Of course the Jewish religion came first. The Muslim religion came VI>after the Christian religion, which in turn came after the Jewish VI>religion. VI>The fact that the Jewish religion came first does not mean that Jews VI>were not influenced by Muslims. After all, Maimonides wrote his "Guide VI>for the Preplexed' in Arabic because he wanted the widest possible VI>audience. VI>Rashi lived from 1040 CE until 1105 CE--after the Muslim religion came VI>into existence. Head covering ARE mentioned in the Talmid. Date: Sunday, June 7, 1998 5:11pm Forum: Theology From: Editor Msg#: 746653 To: Vida Re: BJ (1 reply) Interesting article in this week's Jewish Week about BJ and JTSA. BJ is refusing to pay their dues (or whatever its called) because of JTSA's and homosexual stance. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Monday, June 8, 1998 6:40am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746665 To: Kkid Re: Yarmulkes 1/2 (Reply to #746650, Reply to #746646, Reply to #746616, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>Of course the Jewish religion came first. The Muslim religion came KK>VI>after the Christian religion, which in turn came after the Jewish KK>VI>religion. KK>VI>The fact that the Jewish religion came first does not mean that Jews KK>VI>were not influenced by Muslims. After all, Maimonides wrote his "Guide KK>VI>for the Preplexed' in Arabic because he wanted the widest possible KK>VI>audience. KK>VI>Rashi lived from 1040 CE until 1105 CE--after the Muslim religion came KK>VI>into existence. KK>Head covering ARE mentioned in the Talmid. And when was the Talmud written? I submit that there is no such thing as "pure Judaism". As a minority people we were always being influenced by the other people around us. That's why the Torah has so many warnings about mingling with foreign people--you don't constantly repeat and repeat a warning unless it is a 'sin' that is being committed big time! Date: Monday, June 8, 1998 6:48am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746666 To: Editor Re: BJ (Reply to #746653) (1 reply) ED>Interesting article in this week's Jewish Week about BJ and JTSA. BJ is ED>refusing to pay their dues (or whatever its called) because of JTSA's and ED>homosexual stance. Didn't catch the article. But I knew about this already. As a member of BJ I received a letter from the rabbis explaining why they were not going to send money to support the Jewish Theological Seminary--and it had every thing to do with JTS' anti gay stance. As a BJ member it made sense to me that they were doing what they were doing. They have taken a very strong stance that there is to be no discrimination against g/l/b people in the congregration. They sponsor a very big contingent in the GMHC Aids Walk-a-thon in May. In June BJ has a Gay Jewish Pride Shabbat dinner which occurs on the weekend of Gay Pride. I have tried to get Steve Flur to come to the Gay dinner at BJ for the past two years in a row but he always had some reason not to go. I haven't even tried to convince him to come to the dinner this year...but that's because we haven't heard from him in a while! Date: Monday, June 8, 1998 12:02pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 746672 To: Vida Re: BJ (Reply to #746666, Reply to #746653) (1 reply) VI>ED>Interesting article in this week's Jewish Week about BJ and JTSA. BJ is VI>ED>refusing to pay their dues (or whatever its called) because of JTSA's and VI>ED>homosexual stance. VI>Didn't catch the article. But I knew about this already. As a member VI>of BJ I received a letter from the rabbis explaining why they were not VI>going to send money to support the Jewish Theological Seminary--and it VI>had every thing to do with JTS' anti gay stance. VI>As a BJ member it made sense to me that they were doing what they were VI>doing. They have taken a very strong stance that there is to be no VI>discrimination against g/l/b people in the congregration. They sponsor VI>a very big contingent in the GMHC Aids Walk-a-thon in May. VI>In June BJ has a Gay Jewish Pride Shabbat dinner which occurs on the VI>weekend of Gay Pride. I have tried to get Steve Flur to come to the VI>Gay dinner at BJ for the past two years in a row but he always had some VI>reason not to go. I haven't even tried to convince him to come to the VI>dinner this year...but that's because we haven't heard from him in a VI>while! I have not been able to attend, not because I do not want to, but rather because it is scheduled on the very weekend that I am heavily schuduled preparing for my role as head of security for Pridefest and its 300,000 participants. Date: Monday, June 8, 1998 2:22pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 746676 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes 1/2 (Reply to #746665, Reply to #746650, Reply to #746646, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>VI>Of course the Jewish religion came first. The Muslim religion came VI>KK>VI>into existence. VI>KK>Head covering ARE mentioned in the Talmid. VI>And when was the Talmud written? I have no idea at all. I am not kidding. It was however in existence way before it was written. Date: Tuesday, June 9, 1998 8:08am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746687 To: Steve Flur Re: BJ (Reply to #746672, Reply to #746666, Reply to #746653) (1 reply) SF>VI>ED>Interesting article in this week's Jewish Week about BJ and JTSA. BJ i SF>VI>ED>refusing to pay their dues (or whatever its called) because of JTSA's SF>VI>ED>homosexual stance. SF>VI>Didn't catch the article. But I knew about this already. As a member SF>VI>of BJ I received a letter from the rabbis explaining why they were not SF>VI>going to send money to support the Jewish Theological Seminary--and it SF>VI>had every thing to do with JTS' anti gay stance. SF>VI>As a BJ member it made sense to me that they were doing what they were SF>VI>doing. They have taken a very strong stance that there is to be no SF>VI>discrimination against g/l/b people in the congregration. They sponsor SF>VI>a very big contingent in the GMHC Aids Walk-a-thon in May. SF>VI>In June BJ has a Gay Jewish Pride Shabbat dinner which occurs on the SF>VI>weekend of Gay Pride. I have tried to get Steve Flur to come to the SF>VI>Gay dinner at BJ for the past two years in a row but he always had some SF>VI>reason not to go. I haven't even tried to convince him to come to the SF>VI>dinner this year...but that's because we haven't heard from him in a SF>VI>while! SF>I have not been able to attend, not because I do not want to, but rather SF>because it is scheduled on the very weekend that I am heavily schuduled SF>preparing for my role as head of security for Pridefest and its 300,000 SF>participants. Yes, I know! I know! That's the way it's been for the past couple of years in a row. Where the hell have you been Steve? I have been worried about you. I was just about to call directory assistance to try to locate your phone number because I was so worried. Date: Tuesday, June 9, 1998 8:10am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746688 To: Kkid Re: Yarmulkes 1/2 (Reply to #746676, Reply to #746665, Reply to #746650, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>KK>VI>Of course the Jewish religion came first. The Muslim religion came KK>VI>KK>VI>into existence. KK>VI>KK>Head covering ARE mentioned in the Talmid. KK>VI>And when was the Talmud written? KK>I have no idea at all. I am not kidding. KK>It was however in existence way before it was written. You really don't believe that do you? That is just too much for me to take seriously. The whole claim of the "oral Torah' seems like a rather pathethic attempt to vest authority in the written Talmud. Date: Tuesday, June 9, 1998 10:29am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 746689 To: Vida Re: BJ (Reply to #746687, Reply to #746672, Reply to #746666, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>ED>Interesting article in this week's Jewish Week about BJ and JTSA. B VI>SF>VI>ED>refusing to pay their dues (or whatever its called) because of JTSA VI>SF>VI>ED>homosexual stance. VI>SF>VI>Didn't catch the article. But I knew about this already. As a member VI>SF>VI>of BJ I received a letter from the rabbis explaining why they were not VI>SF>VI>going to send money to support the Jewish Theological Seminary--and it VI>SF>VI>had every thing to do with JTS' anti gay stance. VI>SF>VI>As a BJ member it made sense to me that they were doing what they were VI>SF>VI>doing. They have taken a very strong stance that there is to be no VI>SF>VI>discrimination against g/l/b people in the congregration. They sponso VI>SF>VI>a very big contingent in the GMHC Aids Walk-a-thon in May. VI>SF>VI>In June BJ has a Gay Jewish Pride Shabbat dinner which occurs on the VI>SF>VI>weekend of Gay Pride. I have tried to get Steve Flur to come to the VI>SF>VI>Gay dinner at BJ for the past two years in a row but he always had som VI>SF>VI>reason not to go. I haven't even tried to convince him to come to the VI>SF>VI>dinner this year...but that's because we haven't heard from him in a VI>SF>VI>while! VI>SF>I have not been able to attend, not because I do not want to, but rather VI>SF>because it is scheduled on the very weekend that I am heavily schuduled VI>SF>preparing for my role as head of security for Pridefest and its 300,000 VI>SF>participants. VI>Yes, I know! I know! That's the way it's been for the past couple of VI>years in a row. VI>Where the hell have you been Steve? I have been worried about you. I VI>was just about to call directory assistance to try to locate your phone VI>number because I was so worried. I have been reading but not posting. We just had our 6st annual parade/festival/dance in Queens and I was festival chair. The police estimated over 30,000 participants. The book is out in the stores and Stanley and I will be with the author at a book signing at the Lincoln Center Barnes and Noble. Date: Wednesday, June 10, 1998 6:14am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746697 To: Steve Flur Re: BJ (Reply to #746689, Reply to #746687, Reply to #746672, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>ED>Interesting article in this week's Jewish Week about BJ and JTSA SF>VI>SF>VI>ED>refusing to pay their dues (or whatever its called) because of J SF>VI>SF>VI>ED>homosexual stance. SF>VI>SF>VI>Didn't catch the article. But I knew about this already. As a mem SF>VI>SF>VI>of BJ I received a letter from the rabbis explaining why they were SF>VI>SF>VI>going to send money to support the Jewish Theological Seminary--and SF>VI>SF>VI>had every thing to do with JTS' anti gay stance. SF>VI>SF>VI>As a BJ member it made sense to me that they were doing what they w SF>VI>SF>VI>doing. They have taken a very strong stance that there is to be no SF>VI>SF>VI>discrimination against g/l/b people in the congregration. They spo SF>VI>SF>VI>a very big contingent in the GMHC Aids Walk-a-thon in May. SF>VI>SF>VI>In June BJ has a Gay Jewish Pride Shabbat dinner which occurs on th SF>VI>SF>VI>weekend of Gay Pride. I have tried to get Steve Flur to come to th SF>VI>SF>VI>Gay dinner at BJ for the past two years in a row but he always had SF>VI>SF>VI>reason not to go. I haven't even tried to convince him to come to SF>VI>SF>VI>dinner this year...but that's because we haven't heard from him in SF>VI>SF>VI>while! SF>VI>SF>I have not been able to attend, not because I do not want to, but rath SF>VI>SF>because it is scheduled on the very weekend that I am heavily schudule SF>VI>SF>preparing for my role as head of security for Pridefest and its 300,00 SF>VI>SF>participants. SF>VI>Yes, I know! I know! That's the way it's been for the past couple of SF>VI>years in a row. SF>VI>Where the hell have you been Steve? I have been worried about you. I SF>VI>was just about to call directory assistance to try to locate your phone SF>VI>number because I was so worried. SF>I have been reading but not posting. We just had our 6st annual SF>parade/festival/dance in Queens and I was festival chair. The police SF>estimated over 30,000 participants. The book is out in the stores and SF>Stanley and I will be with the author at a book signing at the Lincoln SF>Center Barnes and Noble. Did you get the internet e mails I sent you? That's why I was really worried. You never responded to those e mails so I thought you were angry at me or something. Date: Wednesday, June 10, 1998 8:21am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746698 To: ** ALL ** Re: Dvar Torah This was posted to the Reconstructionist Dvar Torah list and I thought it was particularly good, so I am reposting it here. From: Reconstructionist Divrei Torah To: Reconstructionist Divrei Torah Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Behaalotekha - Rabbi David Sulomn Stein by "Sydney Nestel" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Behaalotekha Rabbi David Sulomn Stein Baltimore MD [Permission is given to reproduce for personal use, provided the entire text is kept intact, including this notice. Other uses require the permission of the author.] Be Careful What You Wish For It seems to come from nowhere: a craving-perhaps to devour ice cream, to gossip, to mindlessly watch TV, to have sex, or to make fun of another person. Ah, it's a long list-all the urges in our lives! Sudden and strong impulses can be confusing: If what I long for may not itself be bad, then why deny it? Or, if my craving is in fact harmful, why do I feel like doing something I will regret later? On one hand, shouldn't I celebrate my true feelings? On the other hand, shouldn't I be ashamed of feeling this way? A tale in Numbers chapter 11 may put our urges into perspective. There, the Israelites-recently escaped slaves-are on vacation. All their basic needs are met. Free meals. They don't have to get up each morning and go to work or off to school. Yet the Israelites begin whining about food. They crave meat rather than manna; they yearn for variety in their diet: "Our lives are like a desert-there is nothing but this manna to look to!" Like the Israelites, we contemporaries try hard to do our best, but we sometimes get distracted. We too have both exalted and humiliating moments. So we are not alone with our impulses. "I'm not the only one who gets cravings," we realize. What a relief! Our ancestors felt this way too. Craving may not be a measure of objective reality so much as it reflects an inner loss of balance. In our story, every single Israelite has enough to eat. And they own sheep, goats, and cattle-meat is available. Further, the Torah underscores that our forebears must work hard to find something to complain about. The text slips us some facts about manna, from which we learn that it was easy to spot, a cinch to harvest, required no cleaning or rinsing off, and tasted great. The Israelites have it made-yet for them, marvelous manna means misery! Rabban Gamliel II (3rd century) said it well: "The Israelite complaint was just a pretext; once Moses solved that problem, they would just complain about something else." So what are cravings about? I find a clue in our story's text. Usually we read that the craving started with "the riffraff in the midst [of the people]," but that phrase can also be understood as "the accretion within [each person]." That is, craving may come from our own minds, yet it is not who we really are. Our irrational impulses are foreign to our nature. In other words, what we crave may not actually be what we need; thus, getting it may bring short-term relief but it betrays our real selves. Indeed, when God allows the Israelites the opportunity to give in to their craving for meat, those who do so became critically ill from overeating. To "lose oneself" in one's urge means indeed to lose one's self. Fortunately, we have a choice; we neither have to give ourselves over to the craving, nor do we have to pretend that we don't feel its pull. Rather, we can notice it, own up to the feelings that come with it, and discuss it with others whom we trust-such as God. We can ask, "Is this a rational need?" (To discuss doesn't mean to complain, for a complainant has already yielded to the urge.) In our text, what the Israelites already have available to them is manna-of which there is always enough for everyone. This symbolizes the nature of spiritual reality. In short, what we have available to us is what we actually need: ample cause for awe and wonder, plus assurances that we are loved, that we belong, and that our actions do matter. "God gave you manna to eat, to teach you that humans live not only on food" (Deut. 8:3). Ultimately, the answer to physical cravings may be spiritual sustenance. This dvar Torah originally appeared in the Baltimore Jewish Times, June 8, 1996. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, June 10, 1998 9:53am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 746702 To: Vida Re: BJ (Reply to #746697, Reply to #746689, Reply to #746687, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>ED>Interesting article in this week's Jewish Week about BJ and J VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>ED>refusing to pay their dues (or whatever its called) because o VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>ED>homosexual stance. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Didn't catch the article. But I knew about this already. As a VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>of BJ I received a letter from the rabbis explaining why they we VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>going to send money to support the Jewish Theological Seminary-- VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>had every thing to do with JTS' anti gay stance. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>As a BJ member it made sense to me that they were doing what the VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>doing. They have taken a very strong stance that there is to be VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>discrimination against g/l/b people in the congregration. They VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>a very big contingent in the GMHC Aids Walk-a-thon in May. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>In June BJ has a Gay Jewish Pride Shabbat dinner which occurs on VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>weekend of Gay Pride. I have tried to get Steve Flur to come to VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Gay dinner at BJ for the past two years in a row but he always h VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>reason not to go. I haven't even tried to convince him to come VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>dinner this year...but that's because we haven't heard from him VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>while! VI>SF>VI>SF>I have not been able to attend, not because I do not want to, but r VI>SF>VI>SF>because it is scheduled on the very weekend that I am heavily schud VI>SF>VI>SF>preparing for my role as head of security for Pridefest and its 300 VI>SF>VI>SF>participants. VI>SF>VI>Yes, I know! I know! That's the way it's been for the past couple of VI>SF>VI>years in a row. VI>SF>VI>Where the hell have you been Steve? I have been worried about you. I VI>SF>VI>was just about to call directory assistance to try to locate your phon VI>SF>VI>number because I was so worried. VI>SF>I have been reading but not posting. We just had our 6st annual VI>SF>parade/festival/dance in Queens and I was festival chair. The police VI>SF>estimated over 30,000 participants. The book is out in the stores and VI>SF>Stanley and I will be with the author at a book signing at the Lincoln VI>SF>Center Barnes and Noble. VI>Did you get the internet e mails I sent you? That's why I was really VI>worried. You never responded to those e mails so I thought you were VI>angry at me or something. What address were you using since I did not get any. Date: Thursday, June 11, 1998 8:56am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746715 To: Steve Flur Re: BJ (Reply to #746702, Reply to #746697, Reply to #746689, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>ED>Interesting article in this week's Jewish Week about BJ an SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>ED>refusing to pay their dues (or whatever its called) becaus SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>ED>homosexual stance. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Didn't catch the article. But I knew about this already. As SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>of BJ I received a letter from the rabbis explaining why they SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>going to send money to support the Jewish Theological Seminar SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>had every thing to do with JTS' anti gay stance. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>As a BJ member it made sense to me that they were doing what SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>doing. They have taken a very strong stance that there is to SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>discrimination against g/l/b people in the congregration. Th SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>a very big contingent in the GMHC Aids Walk-a-thon in May. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>In June BJ has a Gay Jewish Pride Shabbat dinner which occurs SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>weekend of Gay Pride. I have tried to get Steve Flur to come SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Gay dinner at BJ for the past two years in a row but he alway SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>reason not to go. I haven't even tried to convince him to co SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>dinner this year...but that's because we haven't heard from h SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>while! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I have not been able to attend, not because I do not want to, bu SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>because it is scheduled on the very weekend that I am heavily sc SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>preparing for my role as head of security for Pridefest and its SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>participants. SF>VI>SF>VI>Yes, I know! I know! That's the way it's been for the past couple SF>VI>SF>VI>years in a row. SF>VI>SF>VI>Where the hell have you been Steve? I have been worried about you. SF>VI>SF>VI>was just about to call directory assistance to try to locate your p SF>VI>SF>VI>number because I was so worried. SF>VI>SF>I have been reading but not posting. We just had our 6st annual SF>VI>SF>parade/festival/dance in Queens and I was festival chair. The police SF>VI>SF>estimated over 30,000 participants. The book is out in the stores and SF>VI>SF>Stanley and I will be with the author at a book signing at the Lincoln SF>VI>SF>Center Barnes and Noble. SF>VI>Did you get the internet e mails I sent you? That's why I was really SF>VI>worried. You never responded to those e mails so I thought you were SF>VI>angry at me or something. SF>What address were you using since I did not get any. Ok. Strange. They never came bouncing back to me. I guess they were lost in cyberspace some where. Date: Thursday, June 11, 1998 9:00am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746716 To: ** ALL ** Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (1 reply) You know I couldn't let the latest little zinger from the Southern Baptists go by without ranting and raving. The way to save marriages is for wives to submit "graciously" to their husbands? YEAH RIGHT! I guess I shouldn't expect rational thinking for a denomination that was started for the wrong reasons. The Southern Baptists broke off from the mainstream Baptist Church prior to the Civil War becasue the mainstream Baptist Church supported the abolition of slavery. Excuse me while I barf!!!!! Date: Thursday, June 11, 1998 12:06pm Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 746728 To: Vida Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #746716) (2 replies) VI>You know I couldn't let the latest little zinger from the Southern VI>Baptists go by without ranting and raving. The way to save marriages VI>is for wives to submit "graciously" to their husbands? YEAH RIGHT! VI>I guess I shouldn't expect rational thinking for a denomination that VI>was started for the wrong reasons. The Southern Baptists broke off VI>from the mainstream Baptist Church prior to the Civil War becasue the VI>mainstream Baptist Church supported the abolition of slavery. VI>Excuse me while I barf!!!!! I think the Southern Baptists are so wrong. We all know who really runs the house, the wife(or women) --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ It Will All Be Over Soon... Date: Thursday, June 11, 1998 1:32pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 746729 To: Vida Re: BJ (Reply to #746715, Reply to #746702, Reply to #746697, R*) Still curious which you were using so I could check the system for any unread mail. Date: Thursday, June 11, 1998 1:35pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 746731 To: Nightbird Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #746728, Reply to #746716) (1 reply) NI>VI>You know I couldn't let the latest little zinger from the Southern NI>VI>Baptists go by without ranting and raving. The way to save marriages NI>VI>is for wives to submit "graciously" to their husbands? YEAH RIGHT! NI>VI>I guess I shouldn't expect rational thinking for a denomination that NI>VI>was started for the wrong reasons. The Southern Baptists broke off NI>VI>from the mainstream Baptist Church prior to the Civil War becasue the NI>VI>mainstream Baptist Church supported the abolition of slavery. NI>VI>Excuse me while I barf!!!!! NI>I think the Southern Baptists are so wrong. We all know who really runs NI>the house, the wife(or women) NI>--- NI> þ OLX 2.1 TD þ It Will All Be Over Soon... Well......not in my house, at least. Date: Friday, June 12, 1998 11:46am Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 746733 To: Steve Flur Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #746731, Reply to #746728, Reply to #746716) (1 reply) SF>I>VI>You know I couldn't let the latest little zinger from the Southern SF>NI>VI>Baptists go by without ranting and raving. The way to save marriages SF>NI>VI>is for wives to submit "graciously" to their husbands? YEAH RIGHT! SF>NI>VI>I guess I shouldn't expect rational thinking for a denomination that SF>NI>VI>was started for the wrong reasons. The Southern Baptists broke off SF>NI>VI>from the mainstream Baptist Church prior to the Civil War becasue the SF>NI>VI>mainstream Baptist Church supported the abolition of slavery. SF>NI>VI>Excuse me while I barf!!!!! SF>NI>I think the Southern Baptists are so wrong. We all know who really runs SF>NI>the house, the wife(or women) SF>NI>--- SF>NI> þ OLX 2.1 TD þ It Will All Be Over Soon... SF>Well......not in my house, at least. But, with you, it's a diffrent story. :) --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Am I REALLY responsible for someone who refuses to eat? Date: Friday, June 12, 1998 1:53pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 746734 To: Nightbird Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #746733, Reply to #746731, Reply to #746728, R*) (1 reply) NI>SF>I>VI>You know I couldn't let the latest little zinger from the Southern NI>SF>NI>VI>Baptists go by without ranting and raving. The way to save marriag NI>SF>NI>VI>is for wives to submit "graciously" to their husbands? YEAH RIGHT! NI>SF>NI>VI>I guess I shouldn't expect rational thinking for a denomination tha NI>SF>NI>VI>was started for the wrong reasons. The Southern Baptists broke off NI>SF>NI>VI>from the mainstream Baptist Church prior to the Civil War becasue t NI>SF>NI>VI>mainstream Baptist Church supported the abolition of slavery. NI>SF>NI>VI>Excuse me while I barf!!!!! NI>SF>NI>I think the Southern Baptists are so wrong. We all know who really ru NI>SF>NI>the house, the wife(or women) NI>SF>NI>--- NI>SF>NI> þ OLX 2.1 TD þ It Will All Be Over Soon... NI>SF>Well......not in my house, at least. NI>But, with you, it's a diffrent story. :) NI>--- NI> þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Am I REALLY responsible for someone who refuses to eat? That's the story of my life.....different, now featured in a book called Together Forever, Lesbian and Gay Marriage by Eric Marcus. Date: Saturday, June 13, 1998 8:41am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746742 To: Nightbird Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #746728, Reply to #746716) (2 replies) NI>VI>You know I couldn't let the latest little zinger from the Southern NI>VI>Baptists go by without ranting and raving. The way to save marriages NI>VI>is for wives to submit "graciously" to their husbands? YEAH RIGHT! NI>VI>I guess I shouldn't expect rational thinking for a denomination that NI>VI>was started for the wrong reasons. The Southern Baptists broke off NI>VI>from the mainstream Baptist Church prior to the Civil War becasue the NI>VI>mainstream Baptist Church supported the abolition of slavery. NI>VI>Excuse me while I barf!!!!! NI>I think the Southern Baptists are so wrong. We all know who really runs NI>the house, the wife(or women) NI>--- You better not let Steve C catch you saying that! :) Date: Saturday, June 13, 1998 8:44am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746744 To: Steve Flur Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #746734, Reply to #746733, Reply to #746731, R*) (1 reply) SF>NI>SF>I>VI>You know I couldn't let the latest little zinger from the Souther SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>Baptists go by without ranting and raving. The way to save marr SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>is for wives to submit "graciously" to their husbands? YEAH RIG SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>I guess I shouldn't expect rational thinking for a denomination SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>was started for the wrong reasons. The Southern Baptists broke SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>from the mainstream Baptist Church prior to the Civil War becasu SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>mainstream Baptist Church supported the abolition of slavery. SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>Excuse me while I barf!!!!! SF>NI>SF>NI>I think the Southern Baptists are so wrong. We all know who really SF>NI>SF>NI>the house, the wife(or women) SF>NI>SF>NI>--- SF>NI>SF>NI> þ OLX 2.1 TD þ It Will All Be Over Soon... SF>NI>SF>Well......not in my house, at least. SF>NI>But, with you, it's a diffrent story. :) SF>That's the story of my life.....different, now featured in a book called SF>Together Forever, Lesbian and Gay Marriage by Eric Marcus. Now your hawking the book Steve! :) Date: Saturday, June 13, 1998 3:37pm Forum: Theology From: Nightbird Msg#: 746753 To: Vida Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #746742, Reply to #746728, Reply to #746716) (1 reply) VI>NI>VI>You know I couldn't let the latest little zinger from the Southern VI>NI>VI>Baptists go by without ranting and raving. The way to save marriages VI>NI>VI>is for wives to submit "graciously" to their husbands? YEAH RIGHT! VI>NI>VI>I guess I shouldn't expect rational thinking for a denomination that VI>NI>VI>was started for the wrong reasons. The Southern Baptists broke off VI>NI>VI>from the mainstream Baptist Church prior to the Civil War becasue the VI>NI>VI>mainstream Baptist Church supported the abolition of slavery. VI>NI>VI>Excuse me while I barf!!!!! VI>NI>I think the Southern Baptists are so wrong. We all know who really runs VI>NI>the house, the wife(or women) VI>NI>--- VI>You better not let Steve C catch you saying that! :) I should upload a wav file that a friend sent me called "The man song". --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Damn this hobby is expensive! Date: Saturday, June 13, 1998 6:10pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746761 To: Nightbird Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #746753, Reply to #746742, Reply to #746728, R*) NI>VI>NI>VI>You know I couldn't let the latest little zinger from the Southern NI>VI>NI>VI>Baptists go by without ranting and raving. The way to save marriag NI>VI>NI>VI>is for wives to submit "graciously" to their husbands? YEAH RIGHT! NI>VI>NI>VI>I guess I shouldn't expect rational thinking for a denomination tha NI>VI>NI>VI>was started for the wrong reasons. The Southern Baptists broke off NI>VI>NI>VI>from the mainstream Baptist Church prior to the Civil War becasue t NI>VI>NI>VI>mainstream Baptist Church supported the abolition of slavery. NI>VI>NI>VI>Excuse me while I barf!!!!! NI>VI>NI>I think the Southern Baptists are so wrong. We all know who really ru NI>VI>NI>the house, the wife(or women) NI>VI>NI>--- NI>VI>You better not let Steve C catch you saying that! :) NI>I should upload a wav file that a friend sent me called "The man song". NI>--- Haven't had a chance to look for it yet. :) Date: Saturday, June 13, 1998 6:11pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746762 To: Nightbird Re: Song? What sig did you put that sing in? I can't find a sig called "Tunes". Date: Saturday, June 13, 1998 9:22pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 746765 To: Vida Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #746744, Reply to #746734, Reply to #746733, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>NI>SF>I>VI>You know I couldn't let the latest little zinger from the Sout VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>Baptists go by without ranting and raving. The way to save m VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>is for wives to submit "graciously" to their husbands? YEAH VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>I guess I shouldn't expect rational thinking for a denominati VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>was started for the wrong reasons. The Southern Baptists bro VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>from the mainstream Baptist Church prior to the Civil War bec VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>mainstream Baptist Church supported the abolition of slavery. VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>Excuse me while I barf!!!!! VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>I think the Southern Baptists are so wrong. We all know who rea VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>the house, the wife(or women) VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>--- VI>SF>NI>SF>NI> þ OLX 2.1 TD þ It Will All Be Over Soon... VI>SF>NI>SF>Well......not in my house, at least. VI>SF>NI>But, with you, it's a diffrent story. :) VI>SF>That's the story of my life.....different, now featured in a book called VI>SF>Together Forever, Lesbian and Gay Marriage by Eric Marcus. VI>Now your hawking the book Steve! :) Why not, I'm not making any money so it's not an ad. Date: Saturday, June 13, 1998 10:37pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 746769 To: Vida Re: Yarmulkes 1/2 (Reply to #746688, Reply to #746676, Reply to #746665, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>I have no idea at all. I am not kidding. VI>KK>It was however in existence way before it was written. VI>You really don't believe that do you? That is just too much for me to VI>take seriously. The whole claim of the "oral Torah' seems like a VI>rather pathethic attempt to vest authority in the written Talmud. Yep. I believe that. I think every Orthodox Jew believes that. Date: Sunday, June 14, 1998 4:36pm Forum: Theology From: Steve C Msg#: 746776 To: Vida Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #746742, Reply to #746728, Reply to #746716) (1 reply) VI>NI>I think the Southern Baptists are so wrong. We all know who really runs VI>NI>the house, the wife(or women) VI>NI>--- VI>You better not let Steve C catch you saying that! :) Thats right. I wear the pants in the family (and I have Nightbirds permission to say that.) Marie uploaded a great wav file called themanso.wav today. It has some great lines like "I wear the pants in this house,when I finish doing your laundry dear" and "I'll come home when I'm good and ready to sleep on the couch" --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ The only dumb question is... what was the question again? Date: Sunday, June 14, 1998 7:48pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746782 To: Steve Flur Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #746765, Reply to #746744, Reply to #746734, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>I>VI>You know I couldn't let the latest little zinger from the S SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>Baptists go by without ranting and raving. The way to sav SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>is for wives to submit "graciously" to their husbands? YE SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>I guess I shouldn't expect rational thinking for a denomin SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>was started for the wrong reasons. The Southern Baptists SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>from the mainstream Baptist Church prior to the Civil War SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>mainstream Baptist Church supported the abolition of slave SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>Excuse me while I barf!!!!! SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>I think the Southern Baptists are so wrong. We all know who SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>the house, the wife(or women) SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>--- SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI> þ OLX 2.1 TD þ It Will All Be Over Soon... SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>Well......not in my house, at least. SF>VI>SF>NI>But, with you, it's a diffrent story. :) SF>VI>SF>That's the story of my life.....different, now featured in a book call SF>VI>SF>Together Forever, Lesbian and Gay Marriage by Eric Marcus. SF>VI>Now your hawking the book Steve! :) SF>Why not, I'm not making any money so it's not an ad. I never said you were doing anything wrong. :) Date: Sunday, June 14, 1998 7:51pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746783 To: Kkid Re: Yarmulkes 1/2 (Reply to #746769, Reply to #746688, Reply to #746676, R*) KK>VI>KK>I have no idea at all. I am not kidding. KK>VI>KK>It was however in existence way before it was written. KK>VI>You really don't believe that do you? That is just too much for me to KK>VI>take seriously. The whole claim of the "oral Torah' seems like a KK>VI>rather pathethic attempt to vest authority in the written Talmud. KK>Yep. I believe that. I think every Orthodox Jew believes that. Obviously I don't accept this belief. As I indicated earlier, it really seems like it is just an effort to invest credibility to the later interpretions laid out in the Talmud. Date: Sunday, June 14, 1998 7:54pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746784 To: Steve C Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #746776, Reply to #746742, Reply to #746728, R*) (1 reply) SC>VI>NI>I think the Southern Baptists are so wrong. We all know who really ru SC>VI>NI>the house, the wife(or women) SC>VI>NI>--- SC>VI>You better not let Steve C catch you saying that! :) SC>Thats right. I wear the pants in the family (and I have Nightbirds SC>permission to say that.) If you have her permission than to say that than it doesn't really count now, oes it? :) SC>Marie uploaded a great wav file called themanso.wav today. SC>It has some great lines like "I wear the pants in this house,when I SC>finish doing your laundry dear" and "I'll come home when I'm good and SC>ready to sleep on the couch" I have been trying to find that wave file. Do you know where it is? Date: Sunday, June 14, 1998 9:19pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 746785 To: Vida Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #746782, Reply to #746765, Reply to #746744, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>I>VI>You know I couldn't let the latest little zinger from th VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>Baptists go by without ranting and raving. The way to VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>is for wives to submit "graciously" to their husbands? VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>I guess I shouldn't expect rational thinking for a deno VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>was started for the wrong reasons. The Southern Baptis VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>from the mainstream Baptist Church prior to the Civil W VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>mainstream Baptist Church supported the abolition of sl VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>Excuse me while I barf!!!!! VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>I think the Southern Baptists are so wrong. We all know w VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>the house, the wife(or women) VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>--- VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI> þ OLX 2.1 TD þ It Will All Be Over Soon... VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>Well......not in my house, at least. VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>But, with you, it's a diffrent story. :) VI>SF>VI>SF>That's the story of my life.....different, now featured in a book c VI>SF>VI>SF>Together Forever, Lesbian and Gay Marriage by Eric Marcus. VI>SF>VI>Now your hawking the book Steve! :) VI>SF>Why not, I'm not making any money so it's not an ad. VI>I never said you were doing anything wrong. :) So....have you bought the book yet? Date: Monday, June 15, 1998 6:21pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746798 To: Steve Flur Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #746785, Reply to #746782, Reply to #746765, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>I>VI>You know I couldn't let the latest little zinger from SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>Baptists go by without ranting and raving. The way SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>is for wives to submit "graciously" to their husband SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>I guess I shouldn't expect rational thinking for a d SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>was started for the wrong reasons. The Southern Bap SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>from the mainstream Baptist Church prior to the Civi SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>mainstream Baptist Church supported the abolition of SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>Excuse me while I barf!!!!! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>I think the Southern Baptists are so wrong. We all kno SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>the house, the wife(or women) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>--- SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI> þ OLX 2.1 TD þ It Will All Be Over Soon... SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>Well......not in my house, at least. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>But, with you, it's a diffrent story. :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>That's the story of my life.....different, now featured in a boo SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Together Forever, Lesbian and Gay Marriage by Eric Marcus. SF>VI>SF>VI>Now your hawking the book Steve! :) SF>VI>SF>Why not, I'm not making any money so it's not an ad. SF>VI>I never said you were doing anything wrong. :) SF>So....have you bought the book yet? Not exactly. :) Date: Monday, June 15, 1998 10:37pm Forum: Theology From: Steve C Msg#: 746805 To: Vida Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #746784, Reply to #746776, Reply to #746742, R*) (1 reply) VI>SC>VI>You better not let Steve C catch you saying that! :) VI>SC>Thats right. I wear the pants in the family (and I have Nightbirds VI>SC>permission to say that.) VI>If you have her permission than to say that than it doesn't really VI>count now, oes it? :) Your right, that was a joke. VI>SC>Marie uploaded a great wav file called themanso.wav today. VI>SC>It has some great lines like "I wear the pants in this house,when I VI>SC>finish doing your laundry dear" and "I'll come home when I'm good and VI>SC>ready to sleep on the couch" VI>I have been trying to find that wave file. Do you know where it is? She uploaded it to the tunes file library but as of earlier today it wasn't there. If you want I can send it to you as an Email attachment. Send me a private message with the Email address if that is your wish (I seem to have misplaced your Email address) --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Good judgement usually comes from bad experiences. Date: Tuesday, June 16, 1998 6:59am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746813 To: Steve C Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #746805, Reply to #746784, Reply to #746776, R*) SC>VI>SC>VI>You better not let Steve C catch you saying that! :) SC>VI>SC>Thats right. I wear the pants in the family (and I have Nightbirds SC>VI>SC>permission to say that.) SC>VI>If you have her permission than to say that than it doesn't really SC>VI>count now, oes it? :) SC>Your right, that was a joke. I kinda thought so. :) SC>VI>SC>Marie uploaded a great wav file called themanso.wav today. SC>VI>SC>It has some great lines like "I wear the pants in this house,when I SC>VI>SC>finish doing your laundry dear" and "I'll come home when I'm good and SC>VI>SC>ready to sleep on the couch" SC>VI>I have been trying to find that wave file. Do you know where it is? SC>She uploaded it to the tunes file library but as of earlier today it SC>wasn't there. Ok. Do you know you know how to find the tunes library in World Group manager? SC>If you want I can send it to you as an Email attachment. SC>Send me a private message with the Email address if that is your wish (I SC>seem to have misplaced your Email address) SC>--- SC> þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Good judgement usually comes from bad experiences. Date: Tuesday, June 16, 1998 11:31am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 746815 To: Vida Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #746798, Reply to #746785, Reply to #746782, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>I>VI>You know I couldn't let the latest little zinger f VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>Baptists go by without ranting and raving. The w VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>is for wives to submit "graciously" to their husb VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>I guess I shouldn't expect rational thinking for VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>was started for the wrong reasons. The Southern VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>from the mainstream Baptist Church prior to the C VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>mainstream Baptist Church supported the abolition VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>Excuse me while I barf!!!!! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>I think the Southern Baptists are so wrong. We all VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>the house, the wife(or women) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>--- VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI> þ OLX 2.1 TD þ It Will All Be Over Soon... VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>Well......not in my house, at least. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>But, with you, it's a diffrent story. :) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>That's the story of my life.....different, now featured in a VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Together Forever, Lesbian and Gay Marriage by Eric Marcus. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Now your hawking the book Steve! :) VI>SF>VI>SF>Why not, I'm not making any money so it's not an ad. VI>SF>VI>I never said you were doing anything wrong. :) VI>SF>So....have you bought the book yet? VI>Not exactly. :) Have you at least looked at it in the store and seen our picture? Date: Wednesday, June 17, 1998 6:21am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746827 To: Steve Flur Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #746815, Reply to #746798, Reply to #746785, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>I>VI>You know I couldn't let the latest little zinge SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>Baptists go by without ranting and raving. Th SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>is for wives to submit "graciously" to their h SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>I guess I shouldn't expect rational thinking f SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>was started for the wrong reasons. The Southe SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>from the mainstream Baptist Church prior to th SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>mainstream Baptist Church supported the abolit SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>Excuse me while I barf!!!!! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>I think the Southern Baptists are so wrong. We a SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>the house, the wife(or women) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>--- SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI> þ OLX 2.1 TD þ It Will All Be Over Soon... SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>Well......not in my house, at least. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>But, with you, it's a diffrent story. :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>That's the story of my life.....different, now featured in SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Together Forever, Lesbian and Gay Marriage by Eric Marcus. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Now your hawking the book Steve! :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Why not, I'm not making any money so it's not an ad. SF>VI>SF>VI>I never said you were doing anything wrong. :) SF>VI>SF>So....have you bought the book yet? SF>VI>Not exactly. :) SF>Have you at least looked at it in the store and seen our picture? I promise I will do so the next time I go to Border's in the Trade Center. I will definitely go into Border's sometime later this week, since I visit that store an average of two or three times a week. I may even break down and buy the book, especially if I visit on pay day which is Thrusday. Date: Wednesday, June 17, 1998 10:25am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 746830 To: Vida Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #746827, Reply to #746815, Reply to #746798, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>I>VI>You know I couldn't let the latest little zi VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>Baptists go by without ranting and raving. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>is for wives to submit "graciously" to thei VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>I guess I shouldn't expect rational thinkin VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>was started for the wrong reasons. The Sou VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>from the mainstream Baptist Church prior to VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>mainstream Baptist Church supported the abo VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>Excuse me while I barf!!!!! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>I think the Southern Baptists are so wrong. W VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>the house, the wife(or women) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>--- VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI> þ OLX 2.1 TD þ It Will All Be Over Soon... VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>Well......not in my house, at least. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>But, with you, it's a diffrent story. :) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>That's the story of my life.....different, now featured VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Together Forever, Lesbian and Gay Marriage by Eric Marc VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Now your hawking the book Steve! :) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Why not, I'm not making any money so it's not an ad. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I never said you were doing anything wrong. :) VI>SF>VI>SF>So....have you bought the book yet? VI>SF>VI>Not exactly. :) VI>SF>Have you at least looked at it in the store and seen our picture? VI>I promise I will do so the next time I go to Border's in the Trade VI>Center. I will definitely go into Border's sometime later this week, VI>since I visit that store an average of two or three times a week. I VI>may even break down and buy the book, especially if I visit on pay day VI>which is Thrusday. Our picture begins chapter three, however, our interview is throughout the book. Date: Friday, June 19, 1998 4:42am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746842 To: Steve Flur Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #746830, Reply to #746827, Reply to #746815, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>I>VI>You know I couldn't let the latest little SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>Baptists go by without ranting and ravin SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>is for wives to submit "graciously" to t SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>I guess I shouldn't expect rational thin SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>was started for the wrong reasons. The SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>from the mainstream Baptist Church prior SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>mainstream Baptist Church supported the SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>Excuse me while I barf!!!!! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>I think the Southern Baptists are so wrong. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>the house, the wife(or women) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>--- SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI> þ OLX 2.1 TD þ It Will All Be Over Soon... SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>Well......not in my house, at least. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>But, with you, it's a diffrent story. :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>That's the story of my life.....different, now featu SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Together Forever, Lesbian and Gay Marriage by Eric M SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Now your hawking the book Steve! :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Why not, I'm not making any money so it's not an ad. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I never said you were doing anything wrong. :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>So....have you bought the book yet? SF>VI>SF>VI>Not exactly. :) SF>VI>SF>Have you at least looked at it in the store and seen our picture? SF>VI>I promise I will do so the next time I go to Border's in the Trade SF>VI>Center. I will definitely go into Border's sometime later this week, SF>VI>since I visit that store an average of two or three times a week. I SF>VI>may even break down and buy the book, especially if I visit on pay day SF>VI>which is Thrusday. SF>Our picture begins chapter three, however, our interview is throughout SF>the book. I will try to get to it. Didn't have a chance this week yet. I haven't even had a chance to have a lunch break on any day so far this week. I have been doing EBTs that have lasted just about all day every day this week. :( Date: Friday, June 19, 1998 11:51am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 746847 To: Vida Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #746842, Reply to #746830, Reply to #746827, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>I>VI>You know I couldn't let the latest lit VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>Baptists go by without ranting and ra VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>is for wives to submit "graciously" t VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>I guess I shouldn't expect rational t VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>was started for the wrong reasons. T VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>from the mainstream Baptist Church pr VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>mainstream Baptist Church supported t VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>Excuse me while I barf!!!!! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>I think the Southern Baptists are so wro VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>the house, the wife(or women) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>--- VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI> þ OLX 2.1 TD þ It Will All Be Over Soon VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>Well......not in my house, at least. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>But, with you, it's a diffrent story. :) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>That's the story of my life.....different, now fe VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Together Forever, Lesbian and Gay Marriage by Eri VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Now your hawking the book Steve! :) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Why not, I'm not making any money so it's not an ad. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I never said you were doing anything wrong. :) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>So....have you bought the book yet? VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Not exactly. :) VI>SF>VI>SF>Have you at least looked at it in the store and seen our picture? VI>SF>VI>I promise I will do so the next time I go to Border's in the Trade VI>SF>VI>Center. I will definitely go into Border's sometime later this week, VI>SF>VI>since I visit that store an average of two or three times a week. I VI>SF>VI>may even break down and buy the book, especially if I visit on pay day VI>SF>VI>which is Thrusday. VI>SF>Our picture begins chapter three, however, our interview is throughout VI>SF>the book. VI>I will try to get to it. Didn't have a chance this week yet. I haven't VI>even had a chance to have a lunch break on any day so far this week. I VI>have been doing EBTs that have lasted just about all day every day this VI>week. :( Try not killing yourself Date: Saturday, June 20, 1998 6:01am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746862 To: Steve Flur Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #746847, Reply to #746842, Reply to #746830, R*) (2 replies) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>I>VI>You know I couldn't let the latest SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>Baptists go by without ranting and SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>is for wives to submit "graciously SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>I guess I shouldn't expect rationa SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>was started for the wrong reasons. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>from the mainstream Baptist Church SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>mainstream Baptist Church supporte SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>VI>Excuse me while I barf!!!!! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>I think the Southern Baptists are so SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>the house, the wife(or women) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI>--- SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>NI> þ OLX 2.1 TD þ It Will All Be Over S SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>SF>Well......not in my house, at least. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>NI>But, with you, it's a diffrent story. :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>That's the story of my life.....different, now SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Together Forever, Lesbian and Gay Marriage by SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Now your hawking the book Steve! :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Why not, I'm not making any money so it's not an ad. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I never said you were doing anything wrong. :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>So....have you bought the book yet? SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Not exactly. :) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Have you at least looked at it in the store and seen our picture SF>VI>SF>VI>I promise I will do so the next time I go to Border's in the Trade SF>VI>SF>VI>Center. I will definitely go into Border's sometime later this wee SF>VI>SF>VI>since I visit that store an average of two or three times a week. SF>VI>SF>VI>may even break down and buy the book, especially if I visit on pay SF>VI>SF>VI>which is Thrusday. SF>VI>SF>Our picture begins chapter three, however, our interview is throughout SF>VI>SF>the book. SF>VI>I will try to get to it. Didn't have a chance this week yet. I haven't SF>VI>even had a chance to have a lunch break on any day so far this week. I SF>VI>have been doing EBTs that have lasted just about all day every day this SF>VI>week. :( SF>Try not killing yourself Thank you! It's WEEKEND. yeah! BTW I bought the book before going to BJ last night at the Barnes and Nobles on Broadway and 82nd Street--my second book store that I visit fairly often. LOOKING GOOD! Now don't ask when I will read the darn thing. I have a major league pile of unread books in my collection! Date: Saturday, June 20, 1998 1:11pm Forum: Theology From: Editor Msg#: 746867 To: Vida Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #746862, Reply to #746847, Reply to #746842, R*) (1 reply) Since we are on the topic of Southern Baptists, here is a cute one for you. I was having lunch with a customer the other day (in Sacremento) and one of them had an unusual name (Tula). I asked, and it turned out to be Greek. Somehow the discussion moved onto the authortarian attitude of greek men, and how the marriage vows in the Greek Orthodox Church include the wife promising that she will "obey" the husband. As you can guess, modern greek women don't care much for this, but the Greek Orthodox Church is adamant, so the custom has developed of having the bride step on the groom's foot while she makes that promise! So, if you ever attend a Greek Orthodox wedding, and during the ceremony the bride and groom appear to be doing and odd dance, it is most likely the bride searching for the groom's foot. I guess its hard to cross your fingers during a ceremony like that. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Sunday, June 21, 1998 10:52am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746883 To: Editor Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #746867, Reply to #746862, Reply to #746847, R*) (1 reply) ED>Since we are on the topic of Southern Baptists, here is a cute one for you. ED>I was having lunch with a customer the other day (in Sacremento) and one of ED>them had an unusual name (Tula). I asked, and it turned out to be Greek. ED>Somehow the discussion moved onto the authortarian attitude of greek men, ED>and how the marriage vows in the Greek Orthodox Church include the wife ED>promising that she will "obey" the husband. ED>As you can guess, modern greek women don't care much for this, but the ED>Greek Orthodox Church is adamant, so the custom has developed of having the ED>bride step on the groom's foot while she makes that promise! So, if you ED>ever attend a Greek Orthodox wedding, and during the ceremony the bride and ED>groom appear to be doing and odd dance, it is most likely the bride ED>searching for the groom's foot. ED>I guess its hard to cross your fingers during a ceremony like that. ROFTL! I love the image of the bride stepping on the groom's foot as she promises to obey him! :) Date: Sunday, June 21, 1998 9:09pm Forum: Theology From: Editor Msg#: 746894 To: Vida Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #746883, Reply to #746867, Reply to #746862, R*) (1 reply) V >ED>As you can guess, modern greek women don't care much for this, but V >ED>Greek Orthodox Church is adamant, so the custom has developed of ha V >ED>bride step on the groom's foot while she makes that promise! So, if V >ED>ever attend a Greek Orthodox wedding, and during the ceremony the b V >ED>groom appear to be doing and odd dance, it is most likely the bride V >ED>searching for the groom's foot. V > V >ED>I guess its hard to cross your fingers during a ceremony like that. V > V >ROFTL! I love the image of the bride stepping on the groom's foot as V >she promises to obey him! :) The story continues with a couple that had a knock down fight, right in front of the priest. When the bride stepped on the groom's foot, he was flabbergasted, and they began arguing right on the spot. --- þ WinQwk 2.0 a#0 þ Unregistered Evaluation Copy Date: Monday, June 22, 1998 7:13am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746908 To: Editor Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #746894, Reply to #746883, Reply to #746867, R*) ED>V >ED>As you can guess, modern greek women don't care much for this, but ED>V >ED>Greek Orthodox Church is adamant, so the custom has developed of ha ED>V >ED>bride step on the groom's foot while she makes that promise! So, if ED>V >ED>ever attend a Greek Orthodox wedding, and during the ceremony the b ED>V >ED>groom appear to be doing and odd dance, it is most likely the bride ED>V >ED>searching for the groom's foot. ED>V > ED>V >ED>I guess its hard to cross your fingers during a ceremony like that. ED>V > ED>V >ROFTL! I love the image of the bride stepping on the groom's foot as ED>V >she promises to obey him! :) ED>The story continues with a couple that had a knock down fight, right in ED>front of the priest. When the bride stepped on the groom's foot, he was ED>flabbergasted, and they began arguing right on the spot. O boy! That's not a very good sign for THAT marriage! Date: Monday, June 22, 1998 11:15am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 746910 To: Vida Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #746862, Reply to #746847, Reply to #746842, R*) (1 reply) One week earlier you could have met the author at the 66th street Barnes and Noble. Date: Wednesday, June 24, 1998 6:20am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746925 To: Steve Flur Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #746910, Reply to #746862, Reply to #746847, R*) (1 reply) SF>One week earlier you could have met the author at the 66th street Barnes SF>and Noble. I don't think I have ever visited that particular branch. I usally go to the 83rd Street branch every other week before services at BJ. And I sometimes go to the Astor Street branch, but that's with a lot less frequency. Date: Wednesday, June 24, 1998 10:33am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 746928 To: Vida Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #746925, Reply to #746910, Reply to #746862, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>One week earlier you could have met the author at the 66th street Barnes VI>SF>and Noble. VI>I don't think I have ever visited that particular branch. I usally go VI>to the 83rd Street branch every other week before services at BJ. And VI>I sometimes go to the Astor Street branch, but that's with a lot less VI>frequency. When you read, at least our sections, let me know. Date: Thursday, June 25, 1998 12:40am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746943 To: Steve Flur Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #746928, Reply to #746925, Reply to #746910, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>One week earlier you could have met the author at the 66th street Barn SF>VI>SF>and Noble. SF>VI>I don't think I have ever visited that particular branch. I usally go SF>VI>to the 83rd Street branch every other week before services at BJ. And SF>VI>I sometimes go to the Astor Street branch, but that's with a lot less SF>VI>frequency. SF>When you read, at least our sections, let me know. That could be a while. I found that Hebrew tutor I spoke to you about earlier in the year. So now I have to spend at least a half an hour a day going over my Hebrew. And that's on top of 45 minutes on my cross country ski machine and walking the dog! Date: Thursday, June 25, 1998 11:33am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 746949 To: Vida Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #746943, Reply to #746928, Reply to #746925, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>One week earlier you could have met the author at the 66th street B VI>SF>VI>SF>and Noble. VI>SF>VI>I don't think I have ever visited that particular branch. I usally go VI>SF>VI>to the 83rd Street branch every other week before services at BJ. And VI>SF>VI>I sometimes go to the Astor Street branch, but that's with a lot less VI>SF>VI>frequency. VI>SF>When you read, at least our sections, let me know. VI>That could be a while. I found that Hebrew tutor I spoke to you about VI>earlier in the year. So now I have to spend at least a half an hour a VI>day going over my Hebrew. And that's on top of 45 minutes on my cross VI>country ski machine and walking the dog! Set the book up in front of the machine. Date: Friday, June 26, 1998 7:34am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746961 To: Steve Flur Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #746949, Reply to #746943, Reply to #746928, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>One week earlier you could have met the author at the 66th stree SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>and Noble. SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't think I have ever visited that particular branch. I usally SF>VI>SF>VI>to the 83rd Street branch every other week before services at BJ. SF>VI>SF>VI>I sometimes go to the Astor Street branch, but that's with a lot le SF>VI>SF>VI>frequency. SF>VI>SF>When you read, at least our sections, let me know. SF>VI>That could be a while. I found that Hebrew tutor I spoke to you about SF>VI>earlier in the year. So now I have to spend at least a half an hour a SF>VI>day going over my Hebrew. And that's on top of 45 minutes on my cross SF>VI>country ski machine and walking the dog! SF>Set the book up in front of the machine. My machine doesn't have a stand on it. I have my fan set up in front of the machine, which is absoultely essential, especially in the summer! Date: Friday, June 26, 1998 8:46am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 746964 To: Vida Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #746961, Reply to #746949, Reply to #746943, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>One week earlier you could have met the author at the 66th st VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>and Noble. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't think I have ever visited that particular branch. I usa VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>to the 83rd Street branch every other week before services at BJ VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I sometimes go to the Astor Street branch, but that's with a lot VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>frequency. VI>SF>VI>SF>When you read, at least our sections, let me know. VI>SF>VI>That could be a while. I found that Hebrew tutor I spoke to you about VI>SF>VI>earlier in the year. So now I have to spend at least a half an hour a VI>SF>VI>day going over my Hebrew. And that's on top of 45 minutes on my cross VI>SF>VI>country ski machine and walking the dog! VI>SF>Set the book up in front of the machine. VI>My machine doesn't have a stand on it. I have my fan set up in front VI>of the machine, which is absoultely essential, especially in the summer! Attach it to the fan and the pages will turn automatically. Date: Saturday, June 27, 1998 9:19am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 746968 To: Steve Flur Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #746964, Reply to #746961, Reply to #746949, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>One week earlier you could have met the author at the 66th SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>and Noble. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't think I have ever visited that particular branch. I SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>to the 83rd Street branch every other week before services at SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I sometimes go to the Astor Street branch, but that's with a SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>frequency. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>When you read, at least our sections, let me know. SF>VI>SF>VI>That could be a while. I found that Hebrew tutor I spoke to you ab SF>VI>SF>VI>earlier in the year. So now I have to spend at least a half an hou SF>VI>SF>VI>day going over my Hebrew. And that's on top of 45 minutes on my cr SF>VI>SF>VI>country ski machine and walking the dog! SF>VI>SF>Set the book up in front of the machine. SF>VI>My machine doesn't have a stand on it. I have my fan set up in front SF>VI>of the machine, which is absoultely essential, especially in the summer! SF>Attach it to the fan and the pages will turn automatically. Cute, cute! Actually, I really need to concentrate on my Hebrew when I study. :) Date: Monday, June 29, 1998 7:07pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 746985 To: Vida Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #746968, Reply to #746964, Reply to #746961, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>One week earlier you could have met the author at the 6 VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>and Noble. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't think I have ever visited that particular branch. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>to the 83rd Street branch every other week before services VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I sometimes go to the Astor Street branch, but that's with VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>frequency. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>When you read, at least our sections, let me know. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That could be a while. I found that Hebrew tutor I spoke to you VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>earlier in the year. So now I have to spend at least a half an VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>day going over my Hebrew. And that's on top of 45 minutes on my VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>country ski machine and walking the dog! VI>SF>VI>SF>Set the book up in front of the machine. VI>SF>VI>My machine doesn't have a stand on it. I have my fan set up in front VI>SF>VI>of the machine, which is absoultely essential, especially in the summe VI>SF>Attach it to the fan and the pages will turn automatically. VI>Cute, cute! VI>Actually, I really need to concentrate on my Hebrew when I study. :) Practice by translated my book into Hebrew Date: Thursday, July 2, 1998 6:48am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 747013 To: Steve Flur Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #746985, Reply to #746968, Reply to #746964, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>One week earlier you could have met the author at th SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>and Noble. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't think I have ever visited that particular branc SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>to the 83rd Street branch every other week before servi SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I sometimes go to the Astor Street branch, but that's w SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>frequency. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>When you read, at least our sections, let me know. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That could be a while. I found that Hebrew tutor I spoke to SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>earlier in the year. So now I have to spend at least a half SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>day going over my Hebrew. And that's on top of 45 minutes on SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>country ski machine and walking the dog! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Set the book up in front of the machine. SF>VI>SF>VI>My machine doesn't have a stand on it. I have my fan set up in fro SF>VI>SF>VI>of the machine, which is absoultely essential, especially in the su SF>VI>SF>Attach it to the fan and the pages will turn automatically. SF>VI>Cute, cute! SF>VI>Actually, I really need to concentrate on my Hebrew when I study. :) SF>Practice by translated my book into Hebrew That's modern Hebrew. For now I am concentrating strictly on prayer book Hebrew. Date: Thursday, July 2, 1998 9:59am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 747014 To: Vida Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #747013, Reply to #746985, Reply to #746968, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>One week earlier you could have met the author at VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>and Noble. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't think I have ever visited that particular br VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>to the 83rd Street branch every other week before se VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I sometimes go to the Astor Street branch, but that' VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>frequency. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>When you read, at least our sections, let me know. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That could be a while. I found that Hebrew tutor I spoke VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>earlier in the year. So now I have to spend at least a ha VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>day going over my Hebrew. And that's on top of 45 minutes VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>country ski machine and walking the dog! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Set the book up in front of the machine. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>My machine doesn't have a stand on it. I have my fan set up in VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>of the machine, which is absoultely essential, especially in the VI>SF>VI>SF>Attach it to the fan and the pages will turn automatically. VI>SF>VI>Cute, cute! VI>SF>VI>Actually, I really need to concentrate on my Hebrew when I study. :) VI>SF>Practice by translated my book into Hebrew VI>That's modern Hebrew. For now I am concentrating strictly on prayer VI>book Hebrew. That's enough Hebrew to begin translating with. Date: Saturday, July 4, 1998 5:55am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 747022 To: Steve Flur Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #747014, Reply to #747013, Reply to #746985, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>One week earlier you could have met the author SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>and Noble. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't think I have ever visited that particular SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>to the 83rd Street branch every other week before SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I sometimes go to the Astor Street branch, but th SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>frequency. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>When you read, at least our sections, let me know. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That could be a while. I found that Hebrew tutor I spo SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>earlier in the year. So now I have to spend at least a SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>day going over my Hebrew. And that's on top of 45 minu SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>country ski machine and walking the dog! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Set the book up in front of the machine. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>My machine doesn't have a stand on it. I have my fan set up SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>of the machine, which is absoultely essential, especially in SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Attach it to the fan and the pages will turn automatically. SF>VI>SF>VI>Cute, cute! SF>VI>SF>VI>Actually, I really need to concentrate on my Hebrew when I study. SF>VI>SF>Practice by translated my book into Hebrew SF>VI>That's modern Hebrew. For now I am concentrating strictly on prayer SF>VI>book Hebrew. SF>That's enough Hebrew to begin translating with. Not with the vocubulary I currently have! :) Date: Monday, July 6, 1998 1:50pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 747038 To: Vida Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #747022, Reply to #747014, Reply to #747013, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>One week earlier you could have met the aut VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>and Noble. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't think I have ever visited that particu VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>to the 83rd Street branch every other week bef VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I sometimes go to the Astor Street branch, but VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>frequency. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>When you read, at least our sections, let me know VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That could be a while. I found that Hebrew tutor I VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>earlier in the year. So now I have to spend at leas VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>day going over my Hebrew. And that's on top of 45 m VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>country ski machine and walking the dog! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Set the book up in front of the machine. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>My machine doesn't have a stand on it. I have my fan set VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>of the machine, which is absoultely essential, especially VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Attach it to the fan and the pages will turn automatically. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Cute, cute! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Actually, I really need to concentrate on my Hebrew when I study VI>SF>VI>SF>Practice by translated my book into Hebrew VI>SF>VI>That's modern Hebrew. For now I am concentrating strictly on prayer VI>SF>VI>book Hebrew. VI>SF>That's enough Hebrew to begin translating with. VI>Not with the vocubulary I currently have! :) You just need a little confidence....here have some! Date: Monday, July 6, 1998 6:03pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 747042 To: Steve Flur Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #747038, Reply to #747022, Reply to #747014, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>One week earlier you could have met the SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>and Noble. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I don't think I have ever visited that part SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>to the 83rd Street branch every other week SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>I sometimes go to the Astor Street branch, SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>frequency. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>When you read, at least our sections, let me k SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>That could be a while. I found that Hebrew tutor SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>earlier in the year. So now I have to spend at l SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>day going over my Hebrew. And that's on top of 4 SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>country ski machine and walking the dog! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Set the book up in front of the machine. SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>My machine doesn't have a stand on it. I have my fan s SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>of the machine, which is absoultely essential, especial SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Attach it to the fan and the pages will turn automatically SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Cute, cute! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Actually, I really need to concentrate on my Hebrew when I st SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Practice by translated my book into Hebrew SF>VI>SF>VI>That's modern Hebrew. For now I am concentrating strictly on praye SF>VI>SF>VI>book Hebrew. SF>VI>SF>That's enough Hebrew to begin translating with. SF>VI>Not with the vocubulary I currently have! :) SF>You just need a little confidence....here have some! Not quite. You, of all people, should know there is a world of difference between modern Hebrew and biblical Hebrew. And I am only learning a little bit of biblibal Hebrew at this point. Date: Wednesday, July 8, 1998 11:08am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 747045 To: Vida Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #747042, Reply to #747038, Reply to #747022, R*) (1 reply) Do not let the idea that modern hebrew is so different from biblical hebrew that you do not see that for basic phrases and conversation they are one language. Date: Thursday, July 9, 1998 7:59pm Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 747049 To: Steve Flur Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #747045, Reply to #747042, Reply to #747038, R*) (1 reply) SF>Do not let the idea that modern hebrew is so different from biblical SF>hebrew that you do not see that for basic phrases and conversation they SF>are one language. Right now I am just working on getting the possessive singular forms done straight-his, hers, yours (masculine), yours (feminine) and mine. This is really, really hard because as you know they are not seperate words--but tag on endings! Date: Friday, July 10, 1998 10:10am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 747053 To: Vida Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #747049, Reply to #747045, Reply to #747042, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>Do not let the idea that modern hebrew is so different from biblical VI>SF>hebrew that you do not see that for basic phrases and conversation they VI>SF>are one language. VI>Right now I am just working on getting the possessive singular forms VI>done straight-his, hers, yours (masculine), yours (feminine) and mine. VI>This is really, really hard because as you know they are not seperate VI>words--but tag on endings! Sounds to me like you are getting it! Date: Sunday, July 12, 1998 7:37am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 747098 To: ** ALL ** Re: Ask and you will receive (1 reply) This appeared on Aish Ha Torah's "Shabbat Shalom" weekly. Even though I am EXTREMELY leery of Aish Ha Torah (and if any one asks me, I will explain why) I thought this piece was so wonderful that I wanted to share it here: The following piece can help put life in perspective: I asked for strength and G-d gave me difficulties to make me strong I asked for wisdom and G-d gave me problems to solve I asked for prosperity and G-d gave me brawn and brain to work I asked for courage and G-d gave me dangers to overcome I asked for love and G-d gave me troubled people to help I asked for favors and G-d gave me opportunities I received nothing I wanted I received everything I needed My prayers were answered. I am going to Elat Chayyim tommorow so if you don't hear from me in a while, that's the reason. Although things have been so dead around here lately, I wonder if anyone will know the difference. :( Date: Sunday, July 12, 1998 7:39am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 747099 To: ** ALL ** Re: Jews owned the land This story was just so incredibile! It made me want to scream! Jewish Family Heirloom: 15 Square Miles of Death By SERGE SCHMEMANN HADERA, Israel -- Last year, at the age of 62, Zypora Frank learned a terrible truth: Her family had owned part of the land on which the Auschwitz death camp stood, and where most of her mother's family perished. In fact, she held the deed to that land. "It was a horror -- to suddenly be connected to this place!" she exclaimed. "My blood pressure soared, I got a bloody nose, I thought I was going to die." Her grandfather, whose tile factory once stood there, was among those who lost his life there. The discovery concluded a quest to learn exactly what the properties were that her parents told her about only 10 years earlier, and also to try to understand why her mother was so withdrawn through all the decades after World War II, why the whole subject of the Holocaust was taboo in her parents' home until their deaths six years ago, three months apart. They broke their silence only in 1987, when Mrs. Frank, a schoolteacher, was invited to join a special 10-day tour of Holocaust sites. Her parents tried everything to keep her from going, and finally showed her the deeds to properties in Brzezinka, a town adjacent to Auschwitz that the Germans called Birkenau, and where they set up a large camp that came to be known as "Auschwitz II." There, her maternal grandfather, Joseph Melzer, had owned a large tile works, with large ovens and railroad tracks leading in. The discovery horrified Mrs. Frank, but it did not dissuade her from going. However terrible Birkenau was, the name did not have the symbolic connotation of Auschwitz. On her return, her parents returned to their silence. "It was as if my parents decided to wipe out all memories," Mrs. Frank said. "They wanted us to believe we were the same as children all around, that we had a normal childhood." But Mrs. Frank remembered enough to know otherwise. Her lifelong fears of railroad cars, of police, of anyone in uniform; her need to always hold a valid ticket out of wherever she was, even the Israel she loved; the doll collection she began as an adult instead of the dolls she never had as a girl -- all this, she knew, testified to a childhood of horrors. When the Germans invaded Poland in 1939, she said, her father, Shmuel Jacoby, was in the Polish army, and her mother, Rivka, decided to flee. She took her children -- Zypora and her younger brother Shaul, who now lives in Jericho, Long Island -- and fled to Lvov, in the Soviet Union. The father soon deserted from the army and somehow rejoined his family. From Lvov they were shipped to Siberia in a cattle car, from Siberia to Tajikistan, and from there, in 1946, they headed back to Poland -- again in a cattle car. The horrors were not over. At the border, they ran into a mob of rioting Poles. "It was May 23, 1946, I remember because it was my birthday, and I was wearing a nice dress," Mrs. Frank recalled. "They threw stones, they were yelling, 'You take our coal and give us the Jews,' and somebody threw a grenade." Two people were killed, one right next to the 11-year-old girl, spattering her birthday dress with blood. Another pogrom followed in July, and Mrs. Frank's parents made a fateful decision, to try to send their children to Palestine as orphans. "They decided that the Poles will finish what the Germans started," Mrs. Frank said. "My mother turned us over to a woman. 'This is your mother now,' she said. We cried." For a year, the children stayed in an Orthodox orphanage in Strasbourg, until another miracle brought their parents out and reunited the family, and eventually brought them to Palestine. But during that year they were apart, Mrs. Frank said, her mother changed -- she returned reserved, quiet, formal. "My father always protected her, as if she was very fragile," Mrs. Frank said. In her last years, as her mother succumbed to Alzheimer's disease, Mrs. Frank said, the woman returned to some long-suppressed hell, constantly asking, in Polish, for forgiveness of a long-dead sister. In 1995, Mrs. Frank's husband died of cancer. His partner, an Englishman, then persuaded Mrs. Frank to tell her story. She agreed: "I think people are forgetting," she said. "All the time we're talking numbers -- six million killed, one and a half million children killed -- the mind can't grasp this. So I thought if I tell the media my personal story, maybe I can influence others to understand. So we made contact with a British television company." With a television crew, Mrs. Frank returned again to Poland last year. In the archives of Birkenau, a lawyer tried to find documents to confirm what Mrs. Frank's parents had told her in 1987. But to her initial relief, there was nothing to show that a Joseph Melzer had owned any property there. "I had very ambivalent feelings -- on one hand, it was a great relief, to know that we were not connected to this place," Mrs. Frank said. "On the other hand, it was as if my mother had wasted half her life feeling guilty for owning this land, for being alive." On the next day, Nov. 24, 1997, the crew and Mrs. Frank went to visit Auschwitz. And there, in the records of the village that the Poles called Oswiecim, she found her grandfather's property -- now hers and her brother's. Fifteen square miles of what became the Auschwitz death camp had been his tile factory. "The horror! Suddenly to be connected to 'Auschwitz,' to the word that is connected with the most horrific thing ever built! I can't even myself understand what I felt," Mrs. Frank said. "Suddenly it was there, it was written: 'Auschwitz.' I was crying. It was as if God had made a bad joke, about Jewish people owning this place." She said, "I realized that the Germans had built the munitions plant on the site of my grandfather's factory, and when I started reading I learned that 2,000 women and children had worked there, that some of the munitions were tested on them." That connection, Mrs. Frank came to believe, was the revelation that drove her mother to silence. "I think when she went home to Brzezinka she saw the Auschwitz camp. It was not like it is now, a museum, it was still horrible, and I think now that she realized that it stood on her father's factory," Mrs. Frank said. "She realized that her father and all her family were killed on their own land." The revelation also changed something in Mrs. Frank. "From that moment something snapped in me," she said. "All my life I said I wanted to know the truth, that the truth would make me whole." "But it's not true," she went on. "It's not true. I'm in parts. I can't talk about it without feeling so emotional. It's not guilt. But there's a connection there, something I can't help, can't understand. I'm fighting against it, but I feel so fragile. "On the other hand I feel I have to talk about it. I see so many children who visit Auschwitz." She added: "I hope this will help the world understand. The Holocaust is still going on -- look at Kosovo, Algeria, Nigeria. I can't keep silent." ______________________________________________________ Date: Sunday, July 12, 1998 7:47am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 747100 To: Steve Flur Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #747053, Reply to #747049, Reply to #747045, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>Do not let the idea that modern hebrew is so different from biblical SF>VI>SF>hebrew that you do not see that for basic phrases and conversation the SF>VI>SF>are one language. SF>VI>Right now I am just working on getting the possessive singular forms SF>VI>done straight-his, hers, yours (masculine), yours (feminine) and mine. SF>VI>This is really, really hard because as you know they are not seperate SF>VI>words--but tag on endings! SF>Sounds to me like you are getting it! Sort of. "My house" ("ba-ye-te") and "my daughter" (ba-te") confuse me because they look so similiar. And I make mistakes when I go to the portion of the lesson that is not in order. (The first couple of excercises go in order--first personal singular, second person masculine, second person feminine, etc.. The latter exercises are all mixed up.) But I am working on it! Eventually I will get it! :) Date: Sunday, July 12, 1998 4:14pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 747104 To: Vida Re: Ask and you will receive (Reply to #747098) (1 reply) VI>This appeared on Aish Ha Torah's "Shabbat Shalom" weekly. Even though I VI>am EXTREMELY leery of Aish Ha Torah (and if any one asks me, I will VI>explain why) Vida, why are you extremely leery of Aish Ha Torah? Date: Monday, July 13, 1998 11:32am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 747107 To: Vida Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #747100, Reply to #747053, Reply to #747049, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>Do not let the idea that modern hebrew is so different from biblica VI>SF>VI>SF>hebrew that you do not see that for basic phrases and conversation VI>SF>VI>SF>are one language. VI>SF>VI>Right now I am just working on getting the possessive singular forms VI>SF>VI>done straight-his, hers, yours (masculine), yours (feminine) and mine. VI>SF>VI>This is really, really hard because as you know they are not seperate VI>SF>VI>words--but tag on endings! VI>SF>Sounds to me like you are getting it! VI>Sort of. VI>"My house" ("ba-ye-te") and "my daughter" (ba-te") confuse me because VI>they look so similiar. VI>And I make mistakes when I go to the portion of the lesson that is not VI>in order. (The first couple of excercises go in order--first personal VI>singular, second person masculine, second person feminine, etc.. The VI>latter exercises are all mixed up.) VI>But I am working on it! Eventually I will get it! :) Think of it as a challange. Date: Wednesday, July 15, 1998 4:25pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 747139 To: Vida Re: Aish Hatorah (1 reply) You said that if anyone is interested in finding out why you don't particularly care for Aish Hatorah, they should ask you.Well, I asked and you have not yet responded! (BTW the words taht you don't particulary care for Asih Hatorah are mine. I do not have your exact expression in front of me :-) Date: Monday, July 20, 1998 7:20am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 747181 To: Kkid Re: Ask and you will receive (Reply to #747104, Reply to #747098) (1 reply) KK>VI>This appeared on Aish Ha Torah's "Shabbat Shalom" weekly. Even though I KK>VI>am EXTREMELY leery of Aish Ha Torah (and if any one asks me, I will KK>VI>explain why) KK>Vida, why are you extremely leery of Aish Ha Torah? For lots of reasons. My main objection to Ash Ha Torah is that I don't think they are honest and upfront as to what they are doing. It is clear to me that they are trying to steer nonreligious Jews into becoming Orthodox Jews. To be quite honest I have a general objection to their efforts to make nonobservant Jews do "b'al teshuva" because I think the liberal/progressive strains of Judiasm is the right path, and that the Orthodox paths of Judaism is not. However, I would have less problems with Aish Ha Torah if they were open and upfront about what they are trying to do. However, I think they intentionally try to mask their ultimate goals in order to deceive the uneducated. I think they are also afraid that if they do not mask their intentions that they would turn off the unaffiliated. Date: Monday, July 20, 1998 7:22am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 747182 To: Steve Flur Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #747107, Reply to #747100, Reply to #747053, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Do not let the idea that modern hebrew is so different from bibl SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>hebrew that you do not see that for basic phrases and conversati SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>are one language. SF>VI>SF>VI>Right now I am just working on getting the possessive singular form SF>VI>SF>VI>done straight-his, hers, yours (masculine), yours (feminine) and mi SF>VI>SF>VI>This is really, really hard because as you know they are not sepera SF>VI>SF>VI>words--but tag on endings! SF>VI>SF>Sounds to me like you are getting it! SF>VI>Sort of. SF>VI>"My house" ("ba-ye-te") and "my daughter" (ba-te") confuse me because SF>VI>they look so similiar. SF>VI>And I make mistakes when I go to the portion of the lesson that is not SF>VI>in order. (The first couple of excercises go in order--first personal SF>VI>singular, second person masculine, second person feminine, etc.. The SF>VI>latter exercises are all mixed up.) SF>VI>But I am working on it! Eventually I will get it! :) SF>Think of it as a challange. That's exactly what it is! :) Date: Monday, July 20, 1998 7:55am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 747183 To: Kkid Re: Aish Hatorah (Reply to #747139) (1 reply) KK>You said that if anyone is interested in finding out why you don't KK>particularly care for Aish Hatorah, they should ask you.Well, I asked KK>and you have not yet responded! KK>(BTW the words taht you don't particulary care for Asih Hatorah are KK>mine. I do not have your exact expression in front of me :-) I didn't respond earily because I was on vacation. I went to Elat Chayyim for a week and just came back. I just posted a respond to your previous e mail now. This week I took a class with Reb Zalman Shacter-Shalomi and his wife Eve Ilsen on the "Song of Songs". I also took a class taught by Rami Shapiro which was basically an introduction to Jewish meditation. (I don't remember what the title of the class was.) Rami Shapiro wrote the book "Minyan". I loved Reb Zalman's class, of course. Rami Shapiro's class was so-so. I say, of course, I loved Reb Zalman's course because I consider Reb Zalman to be my rabbe. Just so you don't you misunderstand me I use the word "rabbe" to discribe a great Jewish spirtual leader or the head of a Jewish movement. Reb Zalman was the main leader of the "Jewish renewal" movement in the 60's and 70's and even into the 80's, but he has now more or less retired. However, all of the current leadership of the Jewish renewal movement were his students. And he is still very much revered in the Jewish renewal movement. The most pleasant surprise of "The Song of Songs" class was Eve Ilsen. I never had the chance to take a class from her, but she was really a pretty amazing, wonderful woman. However, the highlight of the week for me is that Reb Zalman gave me a Hebrew name. On Thrusday morning Reb Zalman lead a prayer service to honor the yahreizeit of his parents. (As I have said before he is retired and very rarely leads prayer services any longer.) As part of the service he asked if there were people in the congregration who wanted a name change. I sat for a long, long time but then finally got up. When I got up to him Reb Zalman asked me for my English name (Julia) and asked me what qualities I wanted to bring into my life (I said tranquility and peace of mind.) He then gave me the name "Shalva". :) But I still have the problem of what will be my full Hebrew name, since after doing some family research it appears that my mother was never a Hebrew name. My mother's English name was "Augusta". So what I think I am going to do is take the feminine form of the adjective 'august' in the feminine form and use that as her Hebrew name. So then I would be "Shalva bat Moses bat "Augusta". I will talk to my Hebrew tutor on Tuesday night and bounce it off of her. Date: Monday, July 20, 1998 1:32pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 747184 To: Vida Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #747182, Reply to #747107, Reply to #747100, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Do not let the idea that modern hebrew is so different from b VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>hebrew that you do not see that for basic phrases and convers VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>are one language. VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Right now I am just working on getting the possessive singular f VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>done straight-his, hers, yours (masculine), yours (feminine) and VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>This is really, really hard because as you know they are not sep VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>words--but tag on endings! VI>SF>VI>SF>Sounds to me like you are getting it! VI>SF>VI>Sort of. VI>SF>VI>"My house" ("ba-ye-te") and "my daughter" (ba-te") confuse me because VI>SF>VI>they look so similiar. VI>SF>VI>And I make mistakes when I go to the portion of the lesson that is not VI>SF>VI>in order. (The first couple of excercises go in order--first personal VI>SF>VI>singular, second person masculine, second person feminine, etc.. The VI>SF>VI>latter exercises are all mixed up.) VI>SF>VI>But I am working on it! Eventually I will get it! :) VI>SF>Think of it as a challange. VI>That's exactly what it is! :) Glad to see you back! Date: Monday, July 20, 1998 5:49pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 747189 To: Vida Re: Ask and you will receive (Reply to #747181, Reply to #747104, Reply to #747098) (1 reply) VI>KK>Vida, why are you extremely leery of Aish Ha Torah? VI>For lots of reasons. VI>My main objection to Ash Ha Torah is that I don't think they are honest VI>and upfront as to what they are doing. It is clear to me that they are VI>trying to steer nonreligious Jews into becoming Orthodox Jews. I would hope it is clear to you. It should be clear to everyone. They are not trying to hide it. That is their goal. You say they are not honest and upfront about this? VI>To be quite honest I have a general objection to their efforts to make VI>nonobservant Jews do "b'al teshuva" because I think the VI>liberal/progressive strains of Judiasm is the right path, and that the VI>Orthodox paths of Judaism is not. You find something wrong with a NON OBSERVANT Jew becoming more observant? VI>However, I would have less problems with Aish Ha Torah if they were VI>open and upfront about what they are trying to do. However, I think VI>they intentionally try to mask their ultimate goals in order to VI>deceive the uneducated. I think they are also afraid that if they do VI>not mask their intentions that they would turn off the unaffiliated. They are quite happy if they manage to get someone who never lit candles for the Sabbath to do so. That is the gist of their advertising from what I recall. They are not for individuals who feel that there is nothing wrong with their concept of Judaism. Aish Ha Torah is basically for Jews who know next to nothing about Judaism. Date: Monday, July 20, 1998 5:54pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 747190 To: Vida Re: Aish Hatorah (Reply to #747183, Reply to #747139) (1 reply) VI>and asked me what qualities I wanted to bring into my life (I said VI>tranquility and peace of mind.) He then gave me the name "Shalva". :) Mazal Tov! VI>But I still have the problem of what will be my full Hebrew name, since VI>after doing some family research it appears that my mother was never a VI>Hebrew name. My mother's English name was "Augusta". So what I think I VI>am going to do is take the feminine form of the adjective 'august' in VI>the feminine form and use that as her Hebrew name. So then I would be VI>"Shalva bat Moses bat "Augusta". VI>I will talk to my Hebrew tutor on Tuesday night and bounce it off of VI>her. Hmm....august as in grandiose, baronial, or imposing :-) Date: Tuesday, July 21, 1998 4:47am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 747205 To: Steve Flur Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #747184, Reply to #747182, Reply to #747107, R*) (1 reply) SSF>Glad to see you back! Glad to be back. But talk to me tommorrow. I haven't gone back to work yet. I am going back this morning. :( Date: Tuesday, July 21, 1998 5:10am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 747206 To: Kkid Re: Ask and you will receive (Reply to #747189, Reply to #747181, Reply to #747104, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>KK>Vida, why are you extremely leery of Aish Ha Torah? KK>VI>For lots of reasons. KK>VI>My main objection to Ash Ha Torah is that I don't think they are honest KK>VI>and upfront as to what they are doing. It is clear to me that they are KK>VI>trying to steer nonreligious Jews into becoming Orthodox Jews. KK>I would hope it is clear to you. It should be clear to everyone. They KK>are not trying to hide it. That is their goal. You say they are not KK>honest and upfront about this? Of course it is clear TO ME that they are trying to make nonobservant Jews do "b'al teshuva" and become fully observant Orthodox Jews. But I am now fairly Jewishly literate. For the uneducated and uninformed I do not think their presentation is clear enough. But I think they have intentionally tried to mute their message in order not to scare away nonobservant Jews. I also believe that they mislead people when they say that they have an open and tolerant vision of Judaism. If this was true they would present all the strains of Judaism and allow for people to choose whether they wish to become Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist or Renewal. They don't do this. KK>VI>To be quite honest I have a general objection to their efforts to make KK>VI>nonobservant Jews do "b'al teshuva" because I think the KK>VI>liberal/progressive strains of Judiasm is the right path, and that the KK>VI>Orthodox paths of Judaism is not. KK>You find something wrong with a NON OBSERVANT Jew becoming more KK>observant? I find it objectionable that they are trying to make unaffiliated Jews into Orthodox Jews. I would prefer, as I have said earlier, if they presented the full spectrum of the Jewish religion and allow Jews to choose for themselves. KK>VI>However, I would have less problems with Aish Ha Torah if they were KK>VI>open and upfront about what they are trying to do. However, I think KK>VI>they intentionally try to mask their ultimate goals in order to KK>VI>deceive the uneducated. I think they are also afraid that if they do KK>VI>not mask their intentions that they would turn off the unaffiliated. KK>They are quite happy if they manage to get someone who never lit candles KK>for the Sabbath to do so. That is the gist of their advertising from KK>what I recall. They are not for individuals who feel that there is KK>nothing wrong with their concept of Judaism. Aish Ha Torah is basically KK>for Jews who know next to nothing about Judaism. Well this is something I am struggling with myself. You will be happy to know that Rami Shapiro is working on this. He has created an outreach program which he calls "Simply Jewish". He has two web pages. I think the urls for his web pages are www.simplyJewish.com and www.virtualyeshiva.com. (I am not 100% certain that these are the correct urls. I would have to check my "bookmarks" in Netscape to see if they are correct.) Anyway as part of the "Simply Jewish" outreach program he has created a program which he calls "Shabbos Keepers". The Shabbos Keepers program asks you to make ten promises concerning Shabbos. Since I am writing this post from Bob's house I don't have the 10 promises here. I will write a seperate post and give them to you later this AM when I get back home. Anyway, I have the ten promises posted to my refrigerator door and intend to try really hard to keep them. The promise to refrain from work on Shabbos will be very hard for me to keep because prior to now I have done my housecleaning on Saturday morning. Date: Tuesday, July 21, 1998 5:14am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 747207 To: Kkid Re: Aish Hatorah (Reply to #747190, Reply to #747183, Reply to #747139) KK>VI>and asked me what qualities I wanted to bring into my life (I said KK>VI>tranquility and peace of mind.) He then gave me the name "Shalva". :) KK>Mazal Tov! Thank you! It really was a very special moment in my life when Reb Zalman gave me that name. It is something I will treasure for the rest of my life. :) KK>VI>But I still have the problem of what will be my full Hebrew name, since KK>VI>after doing some family research it appears that my mother was never a KK>VI>Hebrew name. My mother's English name was "Augusta". So what I think I KK>VI>am going to do is take the feminine form of the adjective 'august' in KK>VI>the feminine form and use that as her Hebrew name. So then I would be KK>VI>"Shalva bat Moses bat "Augusta". KK>VI>I will talk to my Hebrew tutor on Tuesday night and bounce it off of KK>VI>her. KK>Hmm....august as in grandiose, baronial, or imposing :-) That's why I need to bounce it off my Hebrew tutor. I don't want to use a Hebrew adjective that has any negative contations. :) Date: Tuesday, July 21, 1998 6:48am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 747208 To: Kkid Re: The Seven Shabbos Keepers Promises (1 reply) Ok, I am back home now. I messed up major league on the previous e mail message I sent you. Rami Shapiro's two web pages are www.rasheit.com and www.simplyjewish.com. The www.simplyjewish.com is a promotional page for him and pretty boring. The www.rasheit.com page is called "The Virtual Yeshiva" and is an interesting page. You should definitely check it out. However, be forwarned that is a nonOrthodox page. I also messed up when I wrote that there were ten Shabbos Keepers promises. There are actually seven. They are as follows: 1. I promise to keep tzedakah before Shabbos. 2. I promise to light candles for Shabbos. 3. I promise to rest from work on Shabbos. 4. I promise to study Torah on Shabbos. 5. I promise to go to shul on Shabbos. 6. I promise to cultivate wonder on Shabbos. 7. I promise to practice thanksgiving on Shabbos. As I previously said, I have a copy of these seven promises posted on my refrigerator and will do my best to keep to them. I know that I may sometimes stumble in my determination to keep these seven promises, but as they say in 12 steps programs: "Progress, Not Prefection". Date: Tuesday, July 21, 1998 8:17am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 747209 To: Vida Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #747205, Reply to #747184, Reply to #747182, R*) (1 reply) VI>SSF>Glad to see you back! VI>Glad to be back. But talk to me tommorrow. I haven't gone back to work VI>yet. I am going back this morning. :( Have fun! Date: Tuesday, July 21, 1998 4:31pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 747215 To: Vida Re: Ask and you will receive (Reply to #747206, Reply to #747189, Reply to #747181, R*) (1 reply) VI>Of course it is clear TO ME that they are trying to make nonobservant VI>Jews do "b'al teshuva" and become fully observant Orthodox Jews. But I VI>am now fairly Jewishly literate. For the uneducated and uninformed I do VI>not think their presentation is clear enough. But I think they have VI>intentionally tried to mute their message in order not to scare away VI>nonobservant Jews. I have seen their ads and you are correct that they do not state that they are trying to make nonobservant Jews Orthodox. However, as they ARE orthodox Jews and as such that may be their goal. I think that there is nothing wrong with muting a message if that message will scare away people who may be interested in Judaism. VI>I also believe that they mislead people when they say that they have an VI>open and tolerant vision of Judaism. If this was true they would VI>present all the strains of Judaism and allow for people to choose VI>whether they wish to become Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, VI>Reconstructionist or Renewal. They don't do this. I don't recall them ever saying that they have an open and tolerant vision of Judaism. And if they did, then YOU should ask them what THEY mean by that statement. VI>KK>VI>To be quite honest I have a general objection to their efforts to make VI>KK>VI>nonobservant Jews do "b'al teshuva" because I think the VI>KK>VI>liberal/progressive strains of Judiasm is the right path, and that the VI>KK>VI>Orthodox paths of Judaism is not. VI>KK>You find something wrong with a NON OBSERVANT Jew becoming more VI>KK>observant? Obviously that is why you do not like them then. You and they are in total disagreement. VI>Anyway as part of the "Simply Jewish" outreach program he has created a VI>program which he calls "Shabbos Keepers". The Shabbos Keepers program VI>asks you to make ten promises concerning Shabbos. Since I am writing VI>this post from Bob's house I don't have the 10 promises here. I will VI>write a seperate post and give them to you later this AM when I get back VI>home. Anyway, I have the ten promises posted to my refrigerator door VI>and intend to try really hard to keep them. The promise to refrain from VI>work on Shabbos will be very hard for me to keep because prior to now I VI>have done my housecleaning on Saturday morning. His definition of work may not be your definition of work :-) For example, an orthodox Jews is permitted to lift a heavy piece of furniture and move it from one corner of the room to the other but is not permitted to walk out carrying a paper-clip in his pocket. I would be interested in the 10 promises concerning the Shabbos. Odds are being on-line on the Sabbath would be a no no :-) Date: Tuesday, July 21, 1998 4:36pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 747216 To: Vida Re: The Seven Shabbos Keepers Promises (Reply to #747208) (1 reply) Thank you for this post! VI>I also messed up when I wrote that there were ten Shabbos Keepers VI>promises. There are actually seven. They are as follows: VI>1. I promise to keep tzedakah before Shabbos. Keep tzedakah or give tzedakah???? VI>2. I promise to light candles for Shabbos. VI>3. I promise to rest from work on Shabbos. As I said you have to clarify what He means by "rest." VI>4. I promise to study Torah on Shabbos. VI>5. I promise to go to shul on Shabbos. VI>6. I promise to cultivate wonder on Shabbos. VI>7. I promise to practice thanksgiving on Shabbos. Woops! I did not want to zap the last part of your post.... I did want to say Good Luck in following these steps to the best of your ability. Date: Wednesday, July 22, 1998 6:40am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 747223 To: Steve Flur Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #747209, Reply to #747205, Reply to #747184, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SSF>Glad to see you back! SF>VI>Glad to be back. But talk to me tommorrow. I haven't gone back to work SF>VI>yet. I am going back this morning. :( SF>Have fun! It wasn't exactly fun. There has been a lot of bad stuff going on with my office politics. The boss fired a lawyer while I was away on vacation. I am afraid I may be next. :( Date: Wednesday, July 22, 1998 6:45am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 747224 To: Kkid Re: Ask and you will receive (Reply to #747215, Reply to #747206, Reply to #747189, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>Of course it is clear TO ME that they are trying to make nonobservant KK>VI>Jews do "b'al teshuva" and become fully observant Orthodox Jews. But I KK>VI>am now fairly Jewishly literate. For the uneducated and uninformed I do KK>VI>not think their presentation is clear enough. But I think they have KK>VI>intentionally tried to mute their message in order not to scare away KK>VI>nonobservant Jews. KK>I have seen their ads and you are correct that they do not state that KK>they are trying to make nonobservant Jews Orthodox. However, as they ARE KK>orthodox Jews and as such that may be their goal. I think that there is KK>nothing wrong with muting a message if that message will scare away KK>people who may be interested in Judaism. Now that's a very interesting theological question. To what extent do the ends justify the means? To what extent is it morally ok to "mute" your message in order not to scare away potential converts to your cause? I personally think that Aish HaTorah crosses the line. I make that determination from my reading of their weekly Torah e mail list. KK>VI>I also believe that they mislead people when they say that they have an KK>VI>open and tolerant vision of Judaism. If this was true they would KK>VI>present all the strains of Judaism and allow for people to choose KK>VI>whether they wish to become Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, KK>VI>Reconstructionist or Renewal. They don't do this. KK>I don't recall them ever saying that they have an open and tolerant KK>vision of Judaism. And if they did, then YOU should ask them what THEY KK>mean by that statement. They absolutely say this. I will find a copy of the language from the e mail list and post it here. KK>VI>KK>VI>To be quite honest I have a general objection to their efforts to m KK>VI>KK>VI>nonobservant Jews do "b'al teshuva" because I think the KK>VI>KK>VI>liberal/progressive strains of Judiasm is the right path, and that KK>VI>KK>VI>Orthodox paths of Judaism is not. KK>VI>KK>You find something wrong with a NON OBSERVANT Jew becoming more KK>VI>KK>observant? KK>Obviously that is why you do not like them then. You and they are in KK>total disagreement. KK>VI>Anyway as part of the "Simply Jewish" outreach program he has created a KK>VI>program which he calls "Shabbos Keepers". The Shabbos Keepers program KK>VI>asks you to make ten promises concerning Shabbos. Since I am writing KK>VI>this post from Bob's house I don't have the 10 promises here. I will KK>VI>write a seperate post and give them to you later this AM when I get back KK>VI>home. Anyway, I have the ten promises posted to my refrigerator door KK>VI>and intend to try really hard to keep them. The promise to refrain from KK>VI>work on Shabbos will be very hard for me to keep because prior to now I KK>VI>have done my housecleaning on Saturday morning. KK>His definition of work may not be your definition of work :-) KK>For example, an orthodox Jews is permitted to lift a heavy piece of KK>furniture and move it from one corner of the room to the other but is KK>not permitted to walk out carrying a paper-clip in his pocket. KK>I would be interested in the 10 promises concerning the Shabbos. KK>Odds are being on-line on the Sabbath would be a no no :-) Date: Wednesday, July 22, 1998 7:02am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 747225 To: Kkid Re: The Seven Shabbos Keepers Promises (Reply to #747216, Reply to #747208) (1 reply) KK>Thank you for this post! KK>VI>I also messed up when I wrote that there were ten Shabbos Keepers KK>VI>promises. There are actually seven. They are as follows: KK>VI>1. I promise to keep tzedakah before Shabbos. KK>Keep tzedakah or give tzedakah???? Give of course! That was my typo! :) KK>VI>2. I promise to light candles for Shabbos. KK>VI>3. I promise to rest from work on Shabbos. KK>As I said you have to clarify what He means by "rest." When he talked about his "Shabbos Keepers" program Rami Shapiro said that he intentionally kept things vague. If you notice you only promise to "light candles". He does not tell you when to do so. Likewise, he leaves it up to you to make your own definition of work. What Rami Shapiro said is that many nonobservant Jews use the Orthodox standards of Sabbath observance as an excuse not to observe Sabbos at all. So what he tried to do is to set out a "minimum" level of Shabbos observance for nonOrthodox Jews. Of course, once you reach that level you can deepen your observance. For me, right now "work" would mean manual labor. So to refrain from doing work would mean not doing any house cleaning and not doing any food shopping. I fully realize that the Orthodox definition of work would prohibit me from doing many other activities. But I do not think I could realistically promise to refrain from doing more than this. It will be difficult enough for me to keep away from house work! (Portions omitted by Vida) KK>Woops! I did not want to zap the last part of your post.... KK>I did want to say Good Luck in following these steps to the best of your KK>ability. Thank you. :) Just notice there is no promise not to spend money. Or from refrain from traveling on the subway or bus. :) Date: Wednesday, July 22, 1998 2:41pm Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 747229 To: Vida Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #747223, Reply to #747209, Reply to #747205, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SSF>Glad to see you back! VI>SF>VI>Glad to be back. But talk to me tommorrow. I haven't gone back to wo VI>SF>VI>yet. I am going back this morning. :( VI>SF>Have fun! VI>It wasn't exactly fun. There has been a lot of bad stuff going on with VI>my office politics. The boss fired a lawyer while I was away on VI>vacation. I am afraid I may be next. :( I hope you are wrong. Date: Wednesday, July 22, 1998 6:32pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 747230 To: Vida Re: Ask and you will receive (Reply to #747224, Reply to #747215, Reply to #747206, R*) (1 reply) VI>KK>I have seen their ads and you are correct that they do not state that VI>KK>they are trying to make nonobservant Jews Orthodox. However, as they ARE VI>KK>orthodox Jews and as such that may be their goal. I think that there is VI>KK>nothing wrong with muting a message if that message will scare away VI>KK>people who may be interested in Judaism. VI>Now that's a very interesting theological question. To what extent do VI>the ends justify the means? To what extent is it morally ok to "mute" VI>your message in order not to scare away potential converts to your VI>cause? I personally think that Aish HaTorah crosses the line. I make VI>that determination from my reading of their weekly Torah e mail list. VI> I was going to ask you if you ever attended one of their seminars. Based on what you said above, I guess you did not. I also never did. Based on what I read about them, however, I get a different impression than yours. I am sure they are not geared for people who read weekly Torah e mail lists. They are intending to reach people who probably do not even know what the Torah is. I would be interested in such an individuals impression rather than the impression of someone who already has a made up mind regarding Judaism. VI>KK>I don't recall them ever saying that they have an open and tolerant VI>KK>vision of Judaism. And if they did, then YOU should ask them what THEY VI>KK>mean by that statement. VI>They absolutely say this. I will find a copy of the language from the VI>e mail list and post it here. Again a copy from the email list. I guess I will have to find one of their copies, not from the email list, and read it again. I have read it in the past and don't recall anything wrong with it. I definitely recall getting the impression that they would feel great if they got someone who never lit Sabbath candles to start lighting them. As a matter of fact that was one of the statistics listed to show what they do. Getting someone to be an Orthodox Jew was not there as far as I recall. Date: Wednesday, July 22, 1998 6:36pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 747231 To: Vida Re: The Seven Shabbos Keepers Promises (Reply to #747225, Reply to #747216, Reply to #747208) (1 reply) VI>When he talked about his "Shabbos Keepers" program Rami Shapiro said VI>that he intentionally kept things vague. If you notice you only VI>promise to "light candles". He does not tell you when to do so. VI>Likewise, he leaves it up to you to make your own definition of work. VI>What Rami Shapiro said is that many nonobservant Jews use the Orthodox VI>standards of Sabbath observance as an excuse not to observe Sabbos at VI>all. So what he tried to do is to set out a "minimum" level of Shabbos VI>observance for nonOrthodox Jews. Of course, once you reach that level VI>you can deepen your observance. VI>For me, right now "work" would mean manual labor. So to refrain from VI>doing work would mean not doing any house cleaning and not doing any VI>food shopping. I fully realize that the Orthodox definition of work VI>would prohibit me from doing many other activities. But I do not think VI>I could realistically promise VI>to refrain from doing more than this. It will be difficult enough for VI>me to keep VI>away from house work! VI>(Portions omitted by Vida) Well, every little bit counts which is the message as well as I understood it from Aish Hatorah. It would be nice, though, if the candles are lit BEFORE the Sabbath so as to signify and honor the coming of the Sabbath. Date: Thursday, July 23, 1998 7:01am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 747233 To: Kkid Re: More on Aish HaTorah (1 reply) Ok, as promised I was able to find the language which Aish HaTorah uses which I find objectionable. What I will post below is the latest post which I received from the "Daily Lift" e mail list from Aish HaTorah. At the end of the post will be the problematic language. I will then explain to you why I find that language problematic. Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:42:23 +0000 Reply-To: Daily-Lift@Aish.Edu From: "Aish HaTorah" Add to Address Book To: daily-lift@virtual.co.il Subject: Daily Lift #130 Daily Lift #130 When you try to correct someone who is not open to correction, the person is likely to say that you don't understand him. He'll claim that he is the righteous one and you are the fool! For your words to be effective, the person needs to be open to hearing your corrections. This means it's best to avoid correcting someone who is certain to quarrel with what you said. And it also means looking inward into the reasons why your approach is unsuccessful. (see Vilna Gaon - Proverbs 10:18; Rabbi Pliskin - "Consulting the Wise") ~~~~~~~~~~ http://aish.edu/learning/maillists/lists.htm All our Lists ~~~~~~~~~~ Rabbi Zelig Pliskin is the Personal Development Coach at Aish HaTorah Jerusalem, and is the author of 10 books. He says: "If you find these emails helpful, pass them along to a friend. This way we are partners in making a difference in people's lives." ~~~~~~~~~~ (Portions ommitted by Vida) ~~~~~~~~~~ Aish HaTorah is an international network of Jewish educational centers, where Jews from all backgrounds can explore their heritage in an open, non-judgmental atmosphere. (C) 1998 Aish HaTorah International - All rights reserved. Email: webmaster@aish.edu Home Page: http://www.aish.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- The language "open, non-judgemental atmosphere" is what I find ojectionable. I think that Aish HaTorah is NOT open and is extremely judgemental in that they earnestly believe that Orthodox Judaism is the only valid form of Judaism. Date: Thursday, July 23, 1998 7:17am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 747235 To: Steve Flur Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #747229, Reply to #747223, Reply to #747209, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SSF>Glad to see you back! SF>VI>SF>VI>Glad to be back. But talk to me tommorrow. I haven't gone back to SF>VI>SF>VI>yet. I am going back this morning. :( SF>VI>SF>Have fun! SF>VI>It wasn't exactly fun. There has been a lot of bad stuff going on with SF>VI>my office politics. The boss fired a lawyer while I was away on SF>VI>vacation. I am afraid I may be next. :( SF>I hope you are wrong. Me too! The job market is horrible. I have been looking for another job for over a year with no luck. :( Date: Thursday, July 23, 1998 7:20am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 747236 To: Kkid Re: Ask and you will receive (Reply to #747230, Reply to #747224, Reply to #747215, R*) KK>VI>KK>I have seen their ads and you are correct that they do not state that KK>VI>KK>they are trying to make nonobservant Jews Orthodox. However, as they A KK>VI>KK>orthodox Jews and as such that may be their goal. I think that there i KK>VI>KK>nothing wrong with muting a message if that message will scare away KK>VI>KK>people who may be interested in Judaism. KK>VI>Now that's a very interesting theological question. To what extent do KK>VI>the ends justify the means? To what extent is it morally ok to "mute" KK>VI>your message in order not to scare away potential converts to your KK>VI>cause? I personally think that Aish HaTorah crosses the line. I make KK>VI>that determination from my reading of their weekly Torah e mail list. KK>VI> KK>I was going to ask you if you ever attended one of their seminars. Based KK>on what you said above, I guess you did not. I also never did. Based on KK>what I read about them, however, I get a different impression than KK>yours. I am sure they are not geared for people who read weekly Torah e KK>mail lists. They are intending to reach people who probably do not even KK>know what the Torah is. I would be interested in such an individuals KK>impression rather than the impression of someone who already has a made KK>up mind regarding Judaism. No, I haven't attended any of their seminiars. I just read two of their e mail lists. And I think you are right, that the e mail lists I read are geared to Jews with no Jewish education at all. KK>VI>KK>I don't recall them ever saying that they have an open and tolerant KK>VI>KK>vision of Judaism. And if they did, then YOU should ask them what THEY KK>VI>KK>mean by that statement. KK>VI>They absolutely say this. I will find a copy of the language from the KK>VI>e mail list and post it here. KK>Again a copy from the email list. I guess I will have to find one of KK>their copies, not from the email list, and read it again. I have read it KK>in the past and don't recall anything wrong with it. KK>I definitely recall getting the impression that they would feel great if KK>they got someone who never lit Sabbath candles to start lighting them. KK>As a matter of fact that was one of the statistics listed to show what KK>they do. Getting someone to be an Orthodox Jew was not there as far as I KK>recall. I just posted one of their e mails with the language I find objectionable. Date: Thursday, July 23, 1998 7:22am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 747237 To: Kkid Re: The Seven Shabbos Keepers Promises (Reply to #747231, Reply to #747225, Reply to #747216, R*) (1 reply) KK>VI>When he talked about his "Shabbos Keepers" program Rami Shapiro said KK>VI>that he intentionally kept things vague. If you notice you only KK>VI>promise to "light candles". He does not tell you when to do so. KK>VI>Likewise, he leaves it up to you to make your own definition of work. KK>VI>What Rami Shapiro said is that many nonobservant Jews use the Orthodox KK>VI>standards of Sabbath observance as an excuse not to observe Sabbos at KK>VI>all. So what he tried to do is to set out a "minimum" level of Shabbos KK>VI>observance for nonOrthodox Jews. Of course, once you reach that level KK>VI>you can deepen your observance. KK>VI>For me, right now "work" would mean manual labor. So to refrain from KK>VI>doing work would mean not doing any house cleaning and not doing any KK>VI>food shopping. I fully realize that the Orthodox definition of work KK>VI>would prohibit me from doing many other activities. But I do not think KK>VI>I could realistically promise KK>VI>to refrain from doing more than this. It will be difficult enough for KK>VI>me to keep KK>VI>away from house work! KK>VI>(Portions omitted by Vida) KK>Well, every little bit counts which is the message as well as I KK>understood it from Aish Hatorah. It would be nice, though, if the KK>candles are lit BEFORE the Sabbath so as to signify and honor the coming KK>of the Sabbath. I understand this. But I don't get home from BJ on Friday nights until late at night. I go straight from work to BJ. Date: Thursday, July 23, 1998 9:58am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 747238 To: Vida Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #747235, Reply to #747229, Reply to #747223, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SSF>Glad to see you back! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Glad to be back. But talk to me tommorrow. I haven't gone back VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>yet. I am going back this morning. :( VI>SF>VI>SF>Have fun! VI>SF>VI>It wasn't exactly fun. There has been a lot of bad stuff going on wit VI>SF>VI>my office politics. The boss fired a lawyer while I was away on VI>SF>VI>vacation. I am afraid I may be next. :( VI>SF>I hope you are wrong. VI>Me too! The job market is horrible. I have been looking for another VI>job for over a year with no luck. :( I wish you then double luck, both in this job and the next. Date: Thursday, July 23, 1998 4:40pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 747244 To: Vida Re: More on Aish HaTorah (Reply to #747233) (1 reply) VI>Home Page: http://www.aish.edu VI>----------------------------------------------------------------------- VI>The language "open, non-judgemental atmosphere" is what I find VI>ojectionable. I think that Aish HaTorah is NOT open and is extremely VI>judgemental in that they earnestly believe that Orthodox Judaism is the VI>only valid form of Judaism. I think you are being extremely judgemental. The only way you can make your claim is by either going to one of their seminars yourself or better yet asking someone who has been there. Actually going there yourself would not be a good idea as your mind is already made up and more importantly you already know about Judaism. Keep in mind that the individuals who are attracted to Aish Hatorah probably know next to nothing about Judaism. You would have to find out how they perceive their experience there. [A [A [A Date: Thursday, July 23, 1998 4:45pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 747245 To: Vida Re: The Seven Shabbos Keepers Promises (Reply to #747237, Reply to #747231, Reply to #747225, R*) (2 replies) VI>I understand this. But I don't get home from BJ on Friday nights until VI>late at night. I go straight from work to BJ. Well, it's your decision then. I wonder what Reb Zalman would tell you to do. Obviously no Orthodox Jew would desecrate the Sabbath by lighting candles on the Sabbath even if the lighting is done for honoring the Sabbath. Odds are that it would not be acceptable even for conservative Jews but you'd have to check on that as I am not sure. Perhaps Reb Zalman would tell you that lighting a candle that would continue burning into the Sabbath would be sufficient for you? Date: Friday, July 24, 1998 4:27am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 747246 To: Steve Flur Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #747238, Reply to #747235, Reply to #747229, R*) (1 reply) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SSF>Glad to see you back! SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Glad to be back. But talk to me tommorrow. I haven't gone b SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>yet. I am going back this morning. :( SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Have fun! SF>VI>SF>VI>It wasn't exactly fun. There has been a lot of bad stuff going on SF>VI>SF>VI>my office politics. The boss fired a lawyer while I was away on SF>VI>SF>VI>vacation. I am afraid I may be next. :( SF>VI>SF>I hope you are wrong. SF>VI>Me too! The job market is horrible. I have been looking for another SF>VI>job for over a year with no luck. :( SF>I wish you then double luck, both in this job and the next. Thank you! Right now I can use some prayers that I find another job and that this new job is a good one. Date: Friday, July 24, 1998 4:36am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 747247 To: Kkid Re: The Seven Shabbos Keepers Promises (Reply to #747245, Reply to #747237, Reply to #747231, R*) KK>VI>I understand this. But I don't get home from BJ on Friday nights until KK>VI>late at night. I go straight from work to BJ. KK>Well, it's your decision then. I wonder what Reb Zalman would tell you KK>to do. Obviously no Orthodox Jew would desecrate the Sabbath by lighting KK>candles on the Sabbath even if the lighting is done for honoring the KK>Sabbath. Odds are that it would not be acceptable even for conservative KK>Jews but you'd have to check on that as I am not sure. Perhaps Reb KK>Zalman would tell you that lighting a candle that would continue burning KK>into the Sabbath would be sufficient for you? I never had the chance to discuss the matter with Reb Zalman. But he would probably say that you should light candles before sundown. You might not realize this but Reb Zalman started out his religious life as a Lubadivicter Hasid. He was sent out by the late Lubadvicter Rebbe Schneerson in the 1960's to work as an outreach worker, together with the late Scholmo (spelling?) Carlebach. At some point in the late 60's Reb Zalman "graduated from the Lubadivicters", which is the way he describes it. :) Date: Friday, July 24, 1998 4:43am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 747248 To: Kkid Re: More on Aish HaTorah (Reply to #747244, Reply to #747233) (1 reply) KK>VI>Home Page: http://www.aish.edu KK>VI>----------------------------------------------------------------------- KK>VI>The language "open, non-judgemental atmosphere" is what I find KK>VI>ojectionable. I think that Aish HaTorah is NOT open and is extremely KK>VI>judgemental in that they earnestly believe that Orthodox Judaism is the KK>VI>only valid form of Judaism. KK>I think you are being extremely judgemental. KK>The only way you can make your claim is by either going to one of their KK>seminars yourself or better yet asking someone who has been there. KK>Actually going there yourself would not be a good idea as your mind is KK>already made up and more importantly you already know about Judaism. KK>Keep in mind that the individuals who are attracted to Aish Hatorah KK>probably know next to nothing about Judaism. You would have to find out KK>how they perceive their experience there. KK> [A KK> [A KK>[A I don't think you are being fair to me. Would you be willing to come to Elat Chayyim with me for a week? I would rather just keep my distance from Aish HaTorah. I receive two e mail lists from them and that is all the contact I wish from them. The rest of my Jewish education I would rather receive from nonOrthodox Jews since this is the path of Judaism that speaks to my heart and soul. There is no way for me to become Orthodox because I can not accept going to a service where I can not have an aliyot solely by virtue of the fact that I am female. I would like to accept more and more observance of Jewish law, but I probably will never be a fully halachaic, at least as long as I continue in my current relationship with a gentile. Date: Friday, July 24, 1998 4:57am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 747249 To: Kkid Re: The Seven Shabbos Keepers Promises (Reply to #747245, Reply to #747237, Reply to #747231, R*) KK>VI>I understand this. But I don't get home from BJ on Friday nights until KK>VI>late at night. I go straight from work to BJ. KK>Well, it's your decision then. I wonder what Reb Zalman would tell you KK>to do. Obviously no Orthodox Jew would desecrate the Sabbath by lighting KK>candles on the Sabbath even if the lighting is done for honoring the KK>Sabbath. Odds are that it would not be acceptable even for conservative KK>Jews but you'd have to check on that as I am not sure. Perhaps Reb KK>Zalman would tell you that lighting a candle that would continue burning KK>into the Sabbath would be sufficient for you? I just wanted to add one thing to my previous post responding to this. Remember the Conservative movement views itself as a halachic movement. So I am fairly sure that the offical stance of the movement is that one should light candles before sundown and that one should not light a fire after sundown. However, the vast majority of people who attend Conservative services are not halachic Jews. That is why it is frequently joked that the Conservative movement consists of "Orthodox Rabbis preaching to a Reform congregration". Also remember I do not consider myself to be a Conservative Jew. I would describe myself as a "post denominational" Jew. I prefer the Conservative prayer service because it retains the vast majority of the traditional prayers, which I find to be extremely powerful vehicles to carry me to a spirtual place. However, in terms of my personal theology I am probably closer to the Reform and Reconstructionist movements. Date: Friday, July 24, 1998 7:25am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 747251 To: Kkid Re: Harsh Words (1 reply) In the August 1998 issue of "Moment" magazine, page 37 they reprinted an article which was written by Rabi Abraham Hecht, of Congregration Shaare Zion in Brooklyn which perhaps clarifies why I am so leery of Aish HaTorah. While his language is extremely harsh I think it expresses the true beliefs, in their naked form, of Orthodox Judaism. I will reprint some experts of this article. Hopefully I will not make any typos in the process of typing them. Rabbi Hecht's words appear below: "The Orthodox Jewish commmunity is united in its opposition to the false and misleading slogan of religious pluaralism--a term that is being used to legitimize the alien interpretations of Torah and traditions...Anyone, even a supposed religious leader, seeking to create schisims and religious division in the Jewish ranks can be described as a modern-day Korach, who, as the Bible records, sought to replace Moshe Rebbeinu, the sole authority in Jewish law and practice.... (Vida's note--the language regarding Korah is extremely scary!!! This would justify KILLING Conservative and Reform Jewish leaders!) We reject the efforts of the efforts of the Conservative and Reform movements to change the status of Torah-true Judaism...These movements are fictious and ersatz religious movements that threaten the very essence of Judaism..All efforts by the American Conservative and Reform movements to gain legitimacy, especially in the conversion process, should be discouraged. (The Conservative and Reform movements) must take responsibility for the 60 percent intermarriage rate in the United States. They obviously have failed miserably in keeping Jews in the fold of the Jewish faith.... Only Torah Orthodoxy represents the true faith." ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------- It should be clear to you that I could not participate in any Jewish educational program that does not accept Reform, Recontrustionist, Conservative and Renewal Judaism as valid forms of the Jewish religion. Recognition of "Religious pluarlism" within the Jewish religion is not a compromisable position for me. Date: Friday, July 24, 1998 9:25am Forum: Theology From: Steve Flur Msg#: 747252 To: Vida Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #747246, Reply to #747238, Reply to #747235, R*) (1 reply) VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SSF>Glad to see you back! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>Glad to be back. But talk to me tommorrow. I haven't gon VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>yet. I am going back this morning. :( VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>Have fun! VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>It wasn't exactly fun. There has been a lot of bad stuff going VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>my office politics. The boss fired a lawyer while I was away on VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>vacation. I am afraid I may be next. :( VI>SF>VI>SF>I hope you are wrong. VI>SF>VI>Me too! The job market is horrible. I have been looking for another VI>SF>VI>job for over a year with no luck. :( VI>SF>I wish you then double luck, both in this job and the next. VI>Thank you! Right now I can use some prayers that I find another job and VI>that this new job is a good one. You have mine! Date: Friday, July 24, 1998 2:56pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 747255 To: Vida Re: More on Aish HaTorah (Reply to #747248, Reply to #747244, Reply to #747233) (1 reply) VI>KK>[A VI>I don't think you are being fair to me. Would you be willing to come to VI>Elat Chayyim with me for a week? I would rather just keep my distance VI>from Aish HaTorah. I receive two e mail lists from them and that is all VI>the contact I wish from them. The rest of my Jewish education I would VI>rather receive from nonOrthodox Jews since this is the path of Judaism VI>that speaks to my heart and soul. There is no way for me to become VI>Orthodox because I can not accept going to a service where I can not VI>have an aliyot solely by virtue of the fact that I am female. I would VI>like to accept more and more observance of Jewish law, but I probably VI>will never be a fully halachaic, at least as long as I continue in my VI>current relationship with a gentile. I am being fair :-) I did say or better yet find out from someone else who attended one of theis seminars who had no prior real knowledge of Judaism. It is not fair to condemn a group based on what you have read about that group unless you have heard other opinions as well. Date: Friday, July 24, 1998 3:02pm Forum: Theology From: Kkid Msg#: 747256 To: Vida Re: Harsh Words (Reply to #747251) (1 reply) VI>In the August 1998 issue of "Moment" magazine, page 37 they reprinted VI>an article which was written by Rabi Abraham Hecht, of Congregration VI>Shaare Zion in Brooklyn which perhaps clarifies why I am so leery of VI>Aish HaTorah. While his language is extremely harsh I think it VI>expresses the true beliefs, in their naked form, of Orthodox Judaism. Before I even continue to read your post let me say that as far as I know Rabbi Hecht is no accepted leader of the Orthodox Jewish community. So simply think of him as an individual with an opinion that is his own, and perhaps that of his congregants. VI>I will reprint some experts of this article. Hopefully I will not make VI>any typos in the process of typing them. Rabbi Hecht's words appear VI>below: VI> "The Orthodox Jewish commmunity is united in its opposition to the VI>false and misleading slogan of religious pluaralism--a term that is VI>being used to legitimize the alien interpretations of Torah and VI>traditions...Anyone, even a supposed religious leader, seeking to VI>create schisims and religious division in the Jewish ranks can be VI>described as a modern-day Korach, who, as the Bible records, sought to VI>replace Moshe Rebbeinu, the sole authority in Jewish law and BI>practice.... VI> (Vida's note--the language regarding Korah is extremely scary!!! VI>This would justify KILLING Conservative and Reform Jewish leaders!) Not true! Korach was not killed by people! VI> We reject the efforts of the efforts of the Conservative and VI>Reform movements to change the status of Torah-true Judaism...These VI>movements are fictious and ersatz religious movements that threaten the VI>very essence of Judaism..All efforts by the American Conservative and VI>Reform movements to gain legitimacy, especially in the conversion VI>process, should be discouraged. VI> VI> (The Conservative and Reform movements) must take responsibility VI>for the 60 percent intermarriage rate in the United States. They VI>obviously have failed miserably in keeping Jews in the fold of the VI>Jewish faith.... VI> Only Torah Orthodoxy represents the true faith." The last line is a given for any orthodox religion. Date: Sunday, July 26, 1998 7:19am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 747257 To: Steve Flur Re: Those Damn Southern Baptists! (Reply to #747252, Reply to #747246, Reply to #747238, R*) SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>It wasn't exactly fun. There has been a lot of bad stuff goi SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>my office politics. The boss fired a lawyer while I was away SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>VI>vacation. I am afraid I may be next. :( SF>VI>SF>VI>SF>I hope you are wrong. SF>VI>SF>VI>Me too! The job market is horrible. I have been looking for anoth SF>VI>SF>VI>job for over a year with no luck. :( SF>VI>SF>I wish you then double luck, both in this job and the next. SF>VI>Thank you! Right now I can use some prayers that I find another job and SF>VI>that this new job is a good one. SF>You have mine! Thank you. :) Date: Sunday, July 26, 1998 7:24am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 747259 To: Kkid Re: More on Aish HaTorah (Reply to #747255, Reply to #747248, Reply to #747244, R*) KK>VI>KK>[A KK>VI>I don't think you are being fair to me. Would you be willing to come to KK>VI>Elat Chayyim with me for a week? I would rather just keep my distance KK>VI>from Aish HaTorah. I receive two e mail lists from them and that is all KK>VI>the contact I wish from them. The rest of my Jewish education I would KK>VI>rather receive from nonOrthodox Jews since this is the path of Judaism KK>VI>that speaks to my heart and soul. There is no way for me to become KK>VI>Orthodox because I can not accept going to a service where I can not KK>VI>have an aliyot solely by virtue of the fact that I am female. I would KK>VI>like to accept more and more observance of Jewish law, but I probably KK>VI>will never be a fully halachaic, at least as long as I continue in my KK>VI>current relationship with a gentile. KK>I am being fair :-) KK>I did say or better yet find out from someone else who attended one of KK>theis seminars who had no prior real knowledge of Judaism. KK>It is not fair to condemn a group based on what you have read about that KK>group unless you have heard other opinions as well. I don't think that a person with any prior Jewish knowledge would be in a position to be able to judge whether Aish Ha Torah's seminiars were misleading. Quite simply such a person would be too ignorant to be able to make such a judgement. Additionally, I think that Aish Ha Torah's e mails are sufficient to make the case that they mask their true intentions in order not to scare away the uneducated. Date: Sunday, July 26, 1998 7:31am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 747260 To: Kkid Re: Harsh Words (Reply to #747256, Reply to #747251) KK>VI>In the August 1998 issue of "Moment" magazine, page 37 they reprinted KK>VI>an article which was written by Rabi Abraham Hecht, of Congregration KK>VI>Shaare Zion in Brooklyn which perhaps clarifies why I am so leery of KK>VI>Aish HaTorah. While his language is extremely harsh I think it KK>VI>expresses the true beliefs, in their naked form, of Orthodox Judaism. KK>Before I even continue to read your post let me say that as far as I KK>know Rabbi Hecht is no accepted leader of the Orthodox Jewish community. KK>So simply think of him as an individual with an opinion that is his own, KK>and perhaps that of his congregants. KK>VI>I will reprint some experts of this article. Hopefully I will not make KK>VI>any typos in the process of typing them. Rabbi Hecht's words appear KK>VI>below: KK>VI> "The Orthodox Jewish commmunity is united in its opposition to the KK>VI>false and misleading slogan of religious pluaralism--a term that is KK>VI>being used to legitimize the alien interpretations of Torah and KK>VI>traditions...Anyone, even a supposed religious leader, seeking to KK>VI>create schisims and religious division in the Jewish ranks can be KK>VI>described as a modern-day Korach, who, as the Bible records, sought to KK>VI>replace Moshe Rebbeinu, the sole authority in Jewish law and KK>BI>practice.... KK>VI> (Vida's note--the language regarding Korah is extremely scary!!! KK>VI>This would justify KILLING Conservative and Reform Jewish leaders!) KK>Not true! Korach was not killed by people! I know that. The earth opened up and swallowed him up. KK>VI> We reject the efforts of the efforts of the Conservative and KK>VI>Reform movements to change the status of Torah-true Judaism...These KK>VI>movements are fictious and ersatz religious movements that threaten the KK>VI>very essence of Judaism..All efforts by the American Conservative and KK>VI>Reform movements to gain legitimacy, especially in the conversion KK>VI>process, should be discouraged. KK>VI> KK>VI> (The Conservative and Reform movements) must take responsibility KK>VI>for the 60 percent intermarriage rate in the United States. They KK>VI>obviously have failed miserably in keeping Jews in the fold of the KK>VI>Jewish faith.... KK>VI> Only Torah Orthodoxy represents the true faith." KK>The last line is a given for any orthodox religion. The last line is what I find objectionable! By definition that line means that the Reform, Reconstructionist and Conservative branches of Judaism are not recognized as legitimate expressions of Judaism. Date: Wednesday, August 26, 1998 4:00am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 747436 To: ** ALL ** Re: Preparing for the Holidays This appeared on the EC Network e mail list, the UNOFFICIAL Elat Chayyim e mail list. I thought it was pretty good. I am hoping it will inspire a discussion among the Jews on AH as to what YOU are doing this month of Elul to prepare your heart for the High Holidays. From: JH Gross) Subject: [ECNETWORK:380] ECN, correction Yesterday I sent out a piece that was given to me by Rabbi Judy Shanks, she asked me today to please credit it to Rabbi Lavy Darby, who adapted it from an article written by Rabbi Toba Spitzer....here it is again...with thanks to all three Rabbi's - ************************************************************************ ELUL - MONTH OF PREPARATION: THE PATH TO FORGIVENESS, THE CELEBRATION OF LIFE Every day of the Hebrew month beginning on Shabbat, August 22 and ending on Rosh HaShana, September 20, ask yourselves these questions. Try sharing the exercise with friends and family members. 1. Did I express gratitude today? Every day, make a point of opening your heart and giving thanks for the smallest of "miracles" which we tend to take for granted, to the grandest and most special gifts of our lives. 2. Did I reach beyond myself today to help another? Do something helpful each day to heal a small part of our broken world: say something nice to a cashier, listen to someone's problems with your full attention, reach out to someone you know is lonely, give tzedakah with a joyful heart. 3. Did I notice something new today? Jewish tradition teaches that Creation is made anew each and every day. Stop for a moment each day and look around. Is there something you haven't noticed before? Try to stay aware of what is around you and how it is constantly changing. Say the she-hechyanu blessing in which we thank God for allowing us to be truly present to the moment. 4. Did I pray today? Each day make some time to pray in a way that is meaningful to you. Go for a walk alone or sit by yourself in a room and speak out loud to God, saying the words that are in your heart. Or sing the Shema or another prayer from the siddur and really listen to the words and the feelings they arouse. Explore your personal relationship with God, begin it (again) or deepen it. 5. Is there anyone I need to say "I'm sorry" to? We cannot ask forgiveness from God during our Holy Days for a mistake we have made with another person. We have to go and work it out with that person. Is there someone you might have hurt, or someone you have not talked to in a long time because you know you owe them an apology. Pick up the phone, set up the meeting. Enter the Holy Days free of guilt and hurt. 6. Did I have fun today? The Psalmist says, "serve God with joy." Remember Jewish living is joyous living. We are blessed with life so as to live it fully and with great happiness. *May the month of Elul be a month of blessings: blessings of goodness, blessings of joy, peace and kindness, friendship and love, creativity, strength, serenity, fulfilling work and dignity, satisfaction, success and sustenance, physical health and radiance. May truth and justice guide our acts, and compassion temper our lives, that we may blossom as we age and become our sweetest selves. Ken Yehi Ratzon, May it be so. (*from Marcia Falk, The Book of Blessings) ************************************************************************ Date: Friday, August 28, 1998 7:42am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 747470 To: ** ALL ** Re: A Reconstructionist Al Het This was posted to the Reconstructionist e mail list by Eric Mendelsohn. I posted a response to the same e mail list, which will follow in the next message. Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 20:44:49 -0400 To: Recon-J@shamash.org Subject: A Reconstructionist Al Het Reply-To: Recon-J@shamash.org This is a first draft -- maybe others can improve add etc. In the tradition there are three A's 3 B's etc-- I have only done one. In any event it should be a lively discussion A Reconstructionist Al Het For the sin, we have sinned before You A by "the Ancients have no vote but I have a veto" For the sin, we have sinned before You B by Bashing the orthodox and congratulating ourselves. For the sin, we have sinned before You, G by venerating Gurus, and denigrating Rabbis. For the sin, we have sinned before You, D by Deconstructing our own myths and accepting those of others. For the sin, we have sinned before You, H by confusing the pursuit of Happiness with the Justice, Justice shall you pursue. For the sin, we have sinned before You by, W by not Welcoming those who should be welcomed, and by welcoming those who should not be welcome. For the sin, we have sinned before You Z by being post-Zionist when we should be Zionist, and Zionist when we should be post-Zionist. For the sin, we have sinned before You, cH by making a Chavurah for ourselves and neglecting to make a synagogue for our children and the community. For the sin, we have sinned before You by, T by Twelve-Step and recovery, turning T'shuvah into, at best, therapy and, at worst, a cult. For the sin, we have sinned before You, J by concerning ourselves with Jewish peoplehood and not with the Jewish people. For the sin, we have sinned before You by, KH by being concerned with eco-Kashruth and not with ritual Kashruth. For the sin, we have sinned before You by, L Lowering standards instead of raising expectations. For all these O Lord of Forgiveness, forgive us, pardon us, grant us atonement. For the sin, we have sinned before You by, M Moral relativism, confusing our individual consciences' decision with what Judaism demands. For the sin, we have sinned before You by, N accepting New age and chicken soup for the soul instead of the Mussar and spirituality in action of our tradition. For the sin, we have sinned before You by, S not Supporting Jewish needs, claiming that the System is corrupt, and letting synagogues deteriorate while rebuilding churches. For the sin, we have sinned before You by, E using Elitist as a synonym for Educated. For the sin, we have sinned before You by, P/F putting core Feminism into Judaism instead of extracting the Feminist core of Judaism. For the sin, we have sinned before You by, Tz ignoring Tzitith and using eastern and aboriginal ritual objects and dress. For the sin, we have sinned before You by, K deifying Kaplan and Kaplanifying the Deity. For the sin, we have sinned before You by, R saying "Reconstructionism is not like other movements" when we mean "Reconstructionism is smaller and younger than other movements". For the sin, we have sinned before You by, SH ignoring v'Shnantam Lbanekha -- "not imposing Judaism on our children so they may have free choice" and not funding liberal day schools. For the sin, we have sinned before You by, TH misusing predicate Theology (Godliness) to deny God's "Power (that makes for salvation)". For all these O Lord of Forgiveness, forgive us, pardon us, grant us atonement %"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." %"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." % - Albert Einstein Date: Friday, August 28, 1998 7:47am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 747471 To: ** ALL ** Re: Vida's response Ok, folks. As promised, here is the response to Eric Mendelsohn's Reconstructionist Al Het, which I posted to the Reconstructionist e mail list. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Thank you so much Eric for posting your Reconstructionist Al Het! Most of the A-B-Cs that you crafted really resonated for me as sins that I have committed and as sins for which I need to ask G*d's forgiveness. I should start out by saying that I am not a Reconstructionist. I identify myself as a Jewish feminist, and a post denominational Jew who has been heavily influenced by the Jewish renewal movement. So, given my background your choice of "K"--about deifing Kaplan and Kaplanifing the devine really did not hit home for me. Can you possibly think of an alternative "K" sin that would applicable not specifically to the Reconstructionist movement but to Liberal/progressive Jews in general? Likewise, I think your "R" may have been rather specific to the Reconstructionist movement, rather than more general and broad. I will print out your original post and mediate on what you have written. If I can think of any alternatives I will post my alternatives. My real, problem, however, was with your "P/F": asking forgiveness for putting core feminism into Judaism instead of extracting the feminist core of Judaism. As a Jewish feminist I strongly object to the implication that there is something alien or unJewish about what you call "core feminism". I think you have a valid point that we Liberal/progressive Jews do not work hard enough to extract the feminist core of Judaism and that we need to commit ourselves to doing the work necessary to accomplish that goal. I do not agree, however, that we have committed any sin by inserting feminism into Judaism. Indeed, I strongly believe that feminism is necessary for Judaism because the Messiah and/or Messianic Age will not arrive until women are given an equal voice and equal footing within the Jewish religion. One final comment is that I think you should correct your A to read "By giving the Ancients no voice but by giving myself a veto." _________________________________________________________ Date: Sunday, August 30, 1998 8:05am Forum: Theology From: Vida Msg#: 747487 To: ** ALL ** Re: More on the Al Het I was hoping my original posts would spark some kind of discussion among the Jews here on AH about the Al Hets that you intend to say on Yom Kippur. Anyway, here is the update which I posted to the Reconstructionist e mail list on Sunday AM. The post to the e mail list appears below: As promised I have been mediating on Eric's Reconstructionist Al Het. Here is my alternative to Eric's P/F and R. I still haven't thought of an alternative K. For the sin, we have sinned before You by, P/F Prohibiting criticism of Feminism, even when feminists blame Judaism for the creation of patriarchy, and by, Failing to extract the Feminist core of Judaism. For the sin, we have sinned before You by, R Rushing to judge traditional Jews as obstinate, and failing to confront our own hard heartedness. Thanks again Eric for the original idea! _________________________________________________________ Date: Wednesday, March 17, 1999 1:27pm Forum: Theology From: Sysop Msg#: 748612 To: ** ALL ** Re: IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT Please check out the important announcement about the future of After Hours in the /HELLO forum. thanks, Ed End of list! Select a Sysop option (R,W,F,T,S,M,E,A,O,X to exit or ? for menu):